# Is aiming a crutch?



## M.J

Not trying to open a can of worms, just kicking some things around. 
It's pretty late and I had a bad night at work so I sat down at my favorite forum and watched a few more of dgui's videos of him knocking stuff out of the air. Inspired, I grabbed my smallest regular shooter (the natural in this post ) and a handfull of 5/8" marbles and went out at midnight to the back yard where I could see by the porch light. I tossed a can out in front of me about 10 feet away. I decided I would do my best to do just as Darrell says to do, not what I think I should do. I drew back to where it felt right, quarter turn on the pouch (upright forks) and released. And missed.
But on the third shot I hit it, then again and again four times in a row until it reached the fence and was pretty much out of the light. Overall after doing this and bringing the can back a few times I'd say I hit it 70% of the time or better, which realistically might not be any better than I would usually do aiming under those circumsatnces. That got me to thinking about what "aiming" a slingshot really is. It's certainaly not at all like aiming a gun (or so I would asume, I don't shoot guns) as your hands are independant of eachother. Even when I'm standing at 33' from my catchbox doing the exact same thing everytime I often have shots go off course for no reason that I can explain but I usually know a shot is good before it hits, even before I release. 
It's the shooting I did tonight (admitedly very little) plus this feeling of "knowing" when the shot is right that makes me think that maybe aiming a slingshot is a crutch for shooting. Sling-shooting is such a sport of hand-eye coordination that it almost doesn't make sense that one would aim a slingshot with the eye instead of the mind. You don't look at the controller when you play video games, you tell your hands what to do and working independantly of eachother they follow your commands. Is sling-shooting the same way?
I'm not trying to make a statement one way or the other, I'm just looking for other people's thoughts on it. I know I'll be practicing this alot more.


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## Bill Hays

MJ.... most people who say they shoot "instinctually" can't shoot very well if they can't see their bands in their peripheral vision... like if shooting at night and only the target is lit but their bands are not... you'll notice a LOT of people can't shoot so straight anymore. 
For example the first time I shot at night using my SEAL Sniper with the flashlight attached.. I had a hard time hitting a soda can from 33 feet. But now that I've practiced it, I can shoot them fairly well... as well as most good shooters can during the day. I've tried to cut cards at night, as well... but I'm not there yet, if I can ever get there at all!

What this means is most people who think they're shooting instinctually, are actually using the line up of the bands to the target as a reference (aiming). Instinctual shooting seems to be good for shooting targets that are of a decent size.. whereas aiming allows true precision to be brought into play.


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## NaturalFork

Bill Hays said:


> MJ.... most people who say they shoot "instinctually" can't shoot very well if they can't see their bands in their peripheral vision... like if shooting at night and only the target is lit but their bands are not... you'll notice a LOT of people can't shoot so straight anymore.
> For example the first time I shot at night using my SEAL Sniper with the flashlight attached.. I had a hard time hitting a soda can from 33 feet. But now that I've practiced it, I can shoot them fairly well... as well as most good shooters can during the day. I've tried to cut cards at night, as well... but I'm not there yet, if I can ever get there at all!
> 
> What this means is most people who think they're shooting instinctually, are actually using the line up of the bands to the target as a reference (aiming). Instinctual shooting seems to be good for shooting targets that are of a decent size.. whereas aiming allows true precision to be brought into play.


Amen to that. This has been my stance on this topic as well.


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## Daniel J




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## BCLuxor

I think a lot of people assume they are aiming when they pause , look at the target and shoot. I still consider this instinctive as you are not making any reference points on the weapon line up with the target. What I consider to be aiming is using a fork tip for example and adjusting for drop and band draw then releasing the shot at that aimed point, simply pausing after the draw whilst still tracking the target is not how I think the definition of aiming is .... not by any means the definition there but just how I feel about aiming.


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## BCLuxor

I think a lot of people assume they are aiming when they pause , look at the target and shoot. I still consider this instinctive as you are not making any reference points on the weapon line up with the target. What I consider to be aiming is using a fork tip for example and adjusting for drop and band draw then releasing the shot at that aimed point, simply pausing after the draw whilst still tracking the target is not how I think the definition of aiming is .... not by any means the definition there but just how I feel about aiming.


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## slingshot_sniper

Hey! Bill have you ever thought of using a powerful headlamp for night shooting?,I find lined up I can see the bands and target in one









BTW I agree with what you said


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## Tex-Shooter

Is a telescope on a gun a crutch? -- Tex


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## whipcrackdeadbunny

I've found intuitive shooting to be fine over shorter distances, say 15-25 feet, but it takes a lot of practice to get those longer shots; whereas targeting over the same distance, makes the shorter ones harder and longer easier ... go fig?


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## philly

My style is forks straight up, I depend on consistancy in everything else. Stance, grip, anchor and release. I put the target between the forks and the mind and form do the rest. My bands don't come into play at all. One thing that really helped me was to anchor right under my right eye, that puts the pouch in the center of my upright forks. When everything feels right I release. Its all about hand eye cordination and consistancy in form for me. Just concentrate on a small spot on the target and everything else is a blur, release smoothly when it feels right.
Philly


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## philly

Sorry double post.
Philly


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## Dayhiker

I pull back into my shoulder and keep the fork only in my peripheral vision but my concentration is on where I want the projectile to hit.

That said, I will repeat what I have said over and over: the more I think about my shooting the worse I shoot. Which is why i very rarely look at this part of the SSF.


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## M.J

Interesting replys, guys.
What Bill said about precision shooting was something I had suspected, that I could get to where I'd be able to shoot reliably at a can from some distance but wouldn't really be able to target shoot that way. I have found when shooting my SEAL Hunter that I focus more on the targets than the bands, which is one of the reasons I think it shoots so well for me.
Then again, Nathan (Flippinout), dgui,Jaybird and others shoot very small objects or targets very well from some distance without a protracted "aim". Darrel does talk about "pointing the bands" or the pouch at the target but does it so fast that it doesn't seem like aiming to me. There's also the hunter's like Nico and Xidoo who shoot from the hip and bring home dinner.
I guess there is no real answer. That's one of the things that makes slingshooting cool.


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## Northerner

I shot stickbows for about 10 years and only used the "instinctive" method. When I started into slingshots I smoothly transitioned with the same "instinctive" style. Some days I would shock myself wit the accuracy at close distances and other days I was almost ready to give up on slingshots. I considered "deliberate aiming" something that compound bow shooters would do and it had no place with slingshots. After watching Bill Hays' videos I wanted to learn to shoot by aiming. It took me quite a while to figure it out and I kept going back to "instinctive" shooting. Eventually I figured it out and I now enjoy aiming with the top fork while gangsta shooting. I don't seem to have as many bad days when aiming (compared to instinctive) and I think I can reach our a bit further. I'm glad there is no need for a front sighting device or peep sight at the pouch. No gadgets to adjust or allen wrenches to carry.

I still enjoy occasional "instinctive" shooting or butterfly shooting but aiming with the top for with gangsta style is what seems to be my main style at the moment. It's all fun!

Cheers,
Northerner


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## NaturalFork

everyone aims. Period. Unless you are blindfolded and can hit a can at ten meters then I am sorry to say that you are obviously aiming. Pointing the slingshot at an object is AIMING at the object, regardless of how you do it.


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## Gwilym

Yeah maybe but that's just quibbling over the terms.


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## dgui

MJ, I do not aim and it sounded like you were getting the hang of Intuitive Style Shooting like Rufus. Keep going and maby your the type that can do both, I would encourage you to be versitile and not stuck in one way of shooting. You may become one of the extraordianry shooters. 

Notice the 3 soda cans up against the chain link fence at about 30 foot distance. I was using 5/8 marbles and each can was hit. You will have to look at the video a few times to believe what happed to the middle or the 2nd can. Now each can has a hole where the marble passed through it. But the middle can flips completely end over end yes the top becomes the bottom and remains standing and I had to view the video because of disbelief, but what I think happened was that the marble pushed the can against one of the protruding links and it caused the can to rotate 180 degree.
My preference in slingshot shooting is to shoot as Rufus did. Have viewed his videos to study his style of shooting countless times to pick up on the most subtile movements that may easily overlooked. At no time did I see him gauge the tops of his forks or take time for a calculation. He would point n shoot, effective and simple. But my style is for me and it works for me. I admire those who can do both aim and shoot intuitively. Wished I could but I cannot do both. However I do not condemn any who aim. I shoot by the feel of the pouch. It is my belief that I can feel when the pouch is being released to it's target as I refer to this as Intuitive Pouch Release.


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## Northerner

Hi dgui,

Where do you anchor your pouch? Do you "gun barrel" the bands with a high anchor point or do you draw to your shoulder level like Rufus?

Cheers,
Northerner


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## M.J

Funny, I went out in the day time to try this again and couldn't recreate my results.
Several factors were different, including that I was using hexnuts (5/16", some of my favorite ammo) but I think mostly it was just that I wasn't in the same "zone" as before. Maybe I should go out now and try again.


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## dgui

Northerner said:


> Hi dgui,
> 
> Where do you anchor your pouch? Do you "gun barrel" the bands with a high anchor point or do you draw to your shoulder level like Rufus?
> 
> Cheers,
> Northerner


An anchor point is generally of no value for me so I do not use one. Depending on the power I require for a specific shot and depending on how fast the release must be to get it to the target my pull can be past my head but always below the chin on the average, now if I am shooting on the ground it changes or straight up so all things vary with my pull so anything ridgid I consider to be a lose. Have tried to emulate the Rufus shooting style as much as my ability will allow. But, since we are all different then different things work for different people and I consider that to be a good thing.


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## Northerner

Hi dgui,

So your pouch hand can vary in position because "the one up front is what controls it". After much practice you automatically know, from experience, where to hold your frame hand (one up front) in order to make a hit.

After more than 50 years of shooting and making over 4000 slingshots, old Rufus Hussey sure was deadly with a beanshooter. It sounds like you are following in his footsteps with a similar shooting style. In every sport there are always those who excel to levels above the average.Your skill level is definitely above the average. I'm not so sure that level is attainable by everyone even with much practice. Some people have superior hand-eye-coordination. The rest of us will likely be better off by having a more deliberate focus on the forks especially for those 20+ yard shots.

Cheers,
Northerner


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## dgui

Hello Northern,

Can't tell how many times I have heard Rufus say " the one up front controls it" a simple brilliant statement. I just wonder what he would say today of all the variations of slingshots and elastics that power these things. All of that is way too much information for me to take in so I like to keep it as simple as possible too and I only allow myself to branch out a little. Shooting at 20 plus yards being 60 or more feet, well I have vision problems but on a good day I just may have to test myself and set up some cans and if I can see them maby they will get hit. Recall Rufus also said "first you have to see your target" I will attest this is number one priority and I will go a little further and say you have to see your target clearly or you won't hit it at all or you will hit something you don't want to. I appreciate someone saw the significance of Rufus to put some of his exploits on video so some of us could study his perfected Skills. Still so much to learn.


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## Tex-Shooter

You have a lot of common sense there Darrell. You are correct; there is no right way, just different ways. Different strokes for different folks. Thanks for the great job of shooting and promoting the sport. -- Tex


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## slingshot_sniper

surely the main purpose is to hit the target the best way you can,to me it makes no difference if you call it aiming or not....all that matters is you hit that dam target









So aim or don't aim its your choice so long as it gets the job done at the end of the day,who really cares what we call it


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## Northerner

It's great to see a sport/hobby fan out so much with variety in equipment and shooting styles... cheek anchor, butterfly, gangsta style, high anchor, low anchor, flip, TTF, OTT, naturals, boardcut frames, wire frames, metal frames, synthetic frames, combo material frames, wrist braces, pocket shooters, ergos, starships, bands, tubes, squares, etc. There is no reason to get bored...lol. Some guys like to keep it simple and others prefer the high-tec. This seems to somewhat parallel the archery sport with the selfbow, laminated traditional bow and compound bow.

Cheers,
Northerner


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## shooter452

The ultimate shooter would be able to shoot the can out of the air (dgui style) and then hit the same can on the ground rolling it with shot after shot until it's 40 or so yards away. At some point possibly switching from intuitive to aim when the distance increases.......or maybe no switch is needed. after the first can is way out there our ultimate shooter would start another air born can and switch from near to far pushing both cans to an extream range. Our ultimate shooter would do this with multiple styles of slings (ttf.ott, stick, bareback, etc) and with every power level from single 1842 tubes up to triple tbg. I was this shooter until the alarm clock ruined the best dream ever.







.
Sorry for the hi-jack.


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## Tex-Shooter

I am not the instinctive shooter that Darrell is, but I did once shoot a can multiple times out to over 40 yards without a miss. I don’t remember the exact distance, but I started at about 7 meters and shot it about seven or eight times. I finally missed and stepped off the distance. -- Tex


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## shooter452

Great shooting Tex!

That's the thing....if we could roll up the wealth of skills on this forum into a super shooter......


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## Performance Catapults

In my opinion, we do have a super shooter, and his name is Bill Hayes. I will never be the shooter he is, and I'm ok with that. I have fun shooting at the level I'm capable of performing. There are lots of opinions about this grey area between aiming and instinctive shooting. I agree with Tex, that there are different strokes for different folks. Don't get caught up with shooting one peticular way. Don't be affraid to change it up a bit. You can always fall back on one style, or combine it with something new. Keep shooting and have fun.


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## Charles

Tex-Shooter said:


> I am not the instinctive shooter that Darrell is, but I did once shoot a can multiple times out to over 40 yards without a miss. I don't remember the exact distance, but I started at about 7 meters and shot it about seven or eight times. I finally missed and stepped off the distance. -- Tex


Heck ... I can do that .... with a 12 guage shotgun!









Cheers ..... Charles


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## dgui

I think I'm with Charles on that one but I think my 410 will do, But that is some great fun shooting you did Tex and I will have to give that one a try on the Tar Mac but I won't bother to measure just shoot till it's out of sight and with my vision that won't be too far.

Tex you surely said it best " there is no right way, just different ways.-- Tex " a True Statement.

452 Speaks of a " wealth of skills on this forum " True, we all contribute in this one with ideas and passion for the sport.

Nothern " Some guys like to keep it simple and others prefer the high-tec " and there can be no doub't, and of couse I'm on the simple end of things.

Sniper " ....all that matters is you hit that dam target " and Sniper reveals our most baser desires, which is to just Hit It!

Jim H. " In my opinion, we do have a super shooter, and his name is Bill Hayes. No disagreement on this end.

I am impressed with the generosity and sharing this forum has produced.


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## Dayhiker

I don't know anything about shooting a slingshot. But I do know that I'm shooting a heck of a lot better now than I was a year-and-a-half ago.


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## M.J

Dayhiker said:


> I don't know anything about shooting a slingshot. But I do know that I'm shooting a heck of a lot better now than I was a year-and-a-half ago.


Same here! So far my hit percentage seems to double every couple of months. Too bad that can't keep up forever!


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## philly

M_J said:


> I don't know anything about shooting a slingshot. But I do know that I'm shooting a heck of a lot better now than I was a year-and-a-half ago.


Same here! So far my hit percentage seems to double every couple of months. Too bad that can't keep up forever!








[/quote]

The more you shoot, the more you shoot. Practice, practice, practice.
Philly


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## Flatband

You can admire the Super Shooters, Expert Marksmen and Sharpshooters and can even try to be like them but, It's all about having fun and shooting the style that you like.There are aimers,pure instinctive guys,mixes of both,snap shooters,wing shooters,heavy ammo shooters ,light ammo shooters ,those that shoot rocks , marbles, clay,gravel and on and on and on...... I know I will never be as accomplished a shooter as many of the guys I've met,nor do I pretend to be,but I do like to compete and I do love all kinds of slingshots and shoot all kinds of styles. I first shot instinctive,then I aimed with one eye closed, now I aim with both open,shoot Butterfly,snap shoot( not good) wingshoot ( even worse) maybe next year something different who knows?- but that is the fun of it. To see some of the guys on here do the things they do is enjoyment enough for me. If I can have a "many Bullseye day" ,all the better,if not ,well I still will have had a heck of a time! Just let me shoot my Slingshots!!!!! D Flatband


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## slingshot_sniper

Well said FB

yep it's all about having fun


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## dgui

In Complete Agreement







FB.


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## wombat

All this talk of 'aiming or intuitive' shooting brings back memories of my youth. I grew up with a pellet rifle and somewhere along the line I read an article about how these army guys were shooting aspirins out the sky with no sights (they had filed the front sight off). The whole exercise was to get them to shoot instinctively. so like any 14 year old I filed my sights off. I don't think I was ever as good as when I actually stopped and aimed, but I do know that if I hesitated for even a second I wasn't as accurate. It took a while to get the hang of it, but the secret seemed to be "confidence". You just had to trust that you were pointing in the right direction and NOT hesitate. I think it was darrel that said to start off close , even if only 10 feet away. Again all you're doing is building up your CONFIDENCE, if you know you can hit it, you will. Now with all that said, I tend to aim when shooting gangsta, but shoot instinctively when flipping. eh go figure??


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## tnsling

*I just sit and read all the great input in this topic and i did'nt find one post that was wrong because everyone has found or is working on a way of of aiming that works for them. I myself shoot instint with everything that shoots. I have good days and bad but ihave found that instint shooting is as much mental as any thing ( for me that is ). I have to be able to focus not on the target as a hold but something inside the target a dent in the can or maybe a letter in the name just something inside the target. I will find my inner target before i raise my slingshot to shoot and i won't take my eyes off that spot till i see if i made my shoot. I always shoot on the exhale and that's about it Oh and i don't use an anchor point. This is what works for me. And remember the next time you go can shootin' take someone that has never been and enlight them to the best blood pressure medince on the market!! *


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## shooter452

tnsling said:


> *
> 
> to the best blood pressure medince on the market!! *


Amen to that. I've told my wife many times on my way to shoot after a long day "I'm going to relieve stress and lower my blood pressure". Very true words.


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## wd40

I sometimes use the gangsta / side-shooting method like Tex and Bill Hays and Smitty show in their videos.

I've used it with a Bill Hays Jade Dragon, a WRP like Tex uses in one of his videos, and a wonderful custom that was made by Smitty named Tournament Winner.

To add my two cents to the discussion...... This is the way to shoot for pin-point accuracy, when you have plenty of time to aim. Bill Hays is a sniper using this method. He is absolutely unbelievable.

As Bill Hays and Smitty teach in their how-to videos, once you get the bands lined up, the only other thing to worry about is eleveation. Tex uses different elevation marks on some of his slingshots for different distances. Saunders sells a cam that has built-in sights to use like this also.

My King Cats have a different sighting (aiming) system that is also excellent.

But when I'm out there just having fun, just plinking, or shooting rapid shoots over and over, or shooting at things I have tossed up, I just pull her back like Rufus or Jaybird or Dgui and let her fly.

True, subconsciously my peripheral vision may still doing some "aiming," but to me it's just the faster, funner way to shoot.

Like the guy above says, everyone has a way that works for them.


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## M.J

It is fun to shoot that way, no doubt about that!
I keep telling myself to loosen up and not worry so much about bullseyes and such but really that's part of the fun for me. Everybody enjoys different things and I do much of my shooting chasing a can down the road (I'd like to do a video of my roadside shooting, I think you guys would get a kick out of it) but when I'm home in front of my catchbox I can spend hours chasing a bullseye and never get tired of it.


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## Flatband

Hey MIke, 
one of the best shooters I know and a man that has won the Summer Nationals 9 times-Jerry Blanchard,does that exact same routine. He takes walks down quiet nearby roads near his home in Wisconsin and just shoots at any items he sees laying on the side of the road. He grabs a handful of steel balls which he always has ( outboard motor mechanic-saves all bearings!) and just sees a cigarette butt-Wham!, a bottle cap-Wham!,an acorn-Wham etc. It's pretty cool and a wonderful way to sharpen your skills. I walked with him at the shoot in 2006 in Illinois. The trick is not to stop and aim and then shoot. Just see a target and just draw and fire. Darrell would be awesome at it! Jerry is good too. He uses a little plastic pocket shooter he fashioned himself. It has one fork longer then the other ( for his index finger)-works for him. Me, I think I may have hit one or two targets. I was too busy looking at him and admiring how he shoots and how much **** corn is in those Illinois fields! GOOD GOD!!!!!







Flatband


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## M.J

Flatband said:


> Hey MIke,
> one of the best shooters I know and a man that has won the Summer Nationals 9 times-Jerry Blanchard,does that exact same routine. He takes walks down quiet nearby roads near his home in Wisconsin and just shoots at any items he sees laying on the side of the road. He grabs a handful of steel balls which he always has ( outboard motor mechanic-saves all bearings!) and just sees a cigarette butt-Wham!, a bottle cap-Wham!,an acorn-Wham etc. It's pretty cool and a wonderful way to sharpen your skills. I walked with him at the shoot in 2006 in Illinois. The trick is not to stop and aim and then shoot. Just see a target and just draw and fire. Darrell would be awesome at it! Jerry is good too. He uses a little plastic pocket shooter he fashioned himself. It has one fork longer then the other ( for his index finger)-works for him. Me, I think I may have hit one or two targets. I was too busy looking at him and admiring how he shoots and how much **** corn is in those Illinois fields! GOOD GOD!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flatband


That's a great story! I take cans with me in my car or in the saddlebags of my motorcycle and sometimes when I'm on a delivery and usually after work I'll pull over and pop off a few shots. I shoot 5/16" hexnuts because I get them really cheap and they murder a pop can. I like the random nature of chasing cans. There's no "here's how I aim at 11yds" it's "ok, there it is, I need to hit it".
And if you like cornfields check out my latest pocket predator video. The field behind my house has corn over my head already! Sometimes I shoot things off my fence and can hear the balls ripping through the leaves. I picture lots of little holes in an arc to the ground.


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## JW_Halverson

M_J said:


> but I usually know a shot is good before it hits, even before I release.


From a primitive archery standpoint, I echo this statement. I noticed it happening more and more when shooting 3D targets and later at bales and stump shooting.

I've long attributed this to the human mind's ability to perform extremely rapid calculations based on a body of experience. Unless one has had some extreme head trauma causing parts of the brain to no longer communicate with each other you cannot prevent the brain from learning hand to eye coordination. Albeit some of us take more repititions to acheive the same results. I've seen field archers "call their shots" as the arrow is in flight to 70 meter targets and beyone with amazing accuracy.

Only recently have I come to believe "instinctive shooting" is a series of rapid calculations with infinite allowances for subtle variables that we do not consciously think about. When we first start shooting we put great mental effort into form, stance, distance, windage, etc and most of the time our calculations are off. But like a muscle being excercised, the brain begins to get the hang of it and parse it all out faster and faster until it just seems like the body is acting of it's own accord. Some people call it Zen.

For me, the moment of truth came after two years of shooting blunt arrows against a targetless 10 ft by 10 ft net. I was perfecting my form and building my shoulders up to the strength to draw smoothly. On release I would concentrate on watching the arrow flight, looking for inconsistencies in arrow flight....each variance in arrow flight tells me what error my form or release exhibited. Then one day I drew back an arrow on an incredible mule deer buck and on release I saw the point of impact in my primary sight and a flawless arrow flight in my secondary flight. I "called" the shot and had a freezer full of healthy and nutritious protein.

I don't hunt much, but I still marvel at hitting golf balls at 20 yds on a regular basis. I can only imagine the kid inside of me whooping it up over a soup can getting knocked around the yard with slingshot.


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