# This video is not correct ...



## Guest (Aug 29, 2013)

Bill;

I appreciate all that you do for the community but I can not ignore the error that you propagate in your video linked above. The draw length that you are measuring should be measured along the hypotenuse of the triangle vice the standing side. As you widen the base of the triangle you increase the length of the draw so that your measurements are corrupted because the draw length has been increased.

So your assertion that fork width does not affect speed can not be true unless you also assert that fork width implies a longer draw length BECAUSE the stretch factor increases proportional to the width of the slingshot.

That is all I am saying, but I am for sure I can give you the math if you demand it.

I would not have posted here but you apparently blocked me on facebook.


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## Aussie Allan In Thailand (Jan 28, 2013)

As a personal favour Master hays, please do not block OldSpookASA.

He has a wealth of knowledge backed upon repeatable scientific tests; much like Charles from the Forum, ands you own valued tests.

He is a true gentleman, and veteran; with a point of view which merits consideration, much as your does also.

Cheers Allan

P.S. If you could please find the time to reply to my question, regarding -41 latex tripled, and loped 30/60, both stretched to 500%, please.

And I am aware that you must have a life, and family, congratulations; and commiserations to them for having to live in the shadow of such a famous father. Although i am certain they would change little.Cheers Allan

Cheers Allan


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## stej (Jan 16, 2013)

OldSpookASA, you are right that the draw length of the bands is bigger with wide forks than with narrow forks. Imho there is no dispute about that.

On the other hand - I have 2 thoughts in my mind:

1) If you shoot with anchor point, you just put your pouch to anchor and don't think about the draw length and stretch factor. So from this point of view wider = faster.

2) I think there is also other force that you don't count with with math in mind. Imagine that the forks are 10 yards wide and you draw the bands. Obviously the bands will want to get to the relaxed state, so they will throw the ammo, but not at the expected speed. The main force will go in the direction of the forks, not to the middle (in the direction of the target).

I refer to the E force in this picture:


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

OldSpookASA said:


> So your assertion that fork width does not affect speed can not be true unless you also assert that fork width implies a longer draw length BECAUSE the stretch factor increases proportional to the width of the slingshot.


you seem to of have misunderstood him. the only thing that changed was the width of the forks, the band measurements were the same and the draw length were the same. and he did say it affects speed, with the variables he presented. the only way i see for this to be resolved would be if you made a video with his test vehicle. and then someone else to do the same and then another. best of 5 ?


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

I would never block anyone unless they become a troll and or continue to "flame" me.

For example, on youtube I blocked John Webb's father because he thinks it's a good idea to be psychotic, that AKM guy because he decided it was a good idea to try and sell his products to people commenting on my videos and then became very obnoxious and used a lot of profanity towards me... and of course a couple more over the course of the years due to similar behaviour.

OldSpook is reasoned, intelligent and thoughtful... although he is mistaken in his presumption about the validity of the content of the video... as what he is referring to is part of what I intended to prove with the video... but in a way that people can understand without having to retake highschool mathematics or physics... that's all.

Remember... although I, you and many others here did attend higher levels of education... the people that are arguing against the facts either did not even attend high school or didn't attain much of a grasp of the content... so apparatus and video is the way to show the effects mentioned in formulae.... you need to know your audience Man!


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## lightgeoduck (Apr 3, 2011)

I thought every one used "hypotenuse" in their conversations.... In texting its HYPE.... As in "Don't believe the HYPE"


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

I don't get why people are worried about a few FPS. As long as the bands I'm shooting shoot flat and at a reasonably good speed and I can hit my target consistently that's all I care about.


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## Tex-Shooter (Dec 17, 2009)

A lot of arguments on the forum start because of thin skins (feeling that you have been wronged some way). Opinions are a lot like noses, everybody has one. I know bill Hays and he would go out of his way to keep from hurting anybody's feelings. He is a true gent! -- Tex


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Cjw said:


> I don't get why people are worried about a few FPS. As long as the bands I'm shooting shoot flat and at a reasonably good speed and I can hit my target consistently that's all I care about.


CJw, I think this is just another kind of enjoyment that can be gotten out of most hobbies. They do this stuff with archery, guns, knives, cars, whatever. The rest of us can take what we want from it and leave the rest. It does save lazy guys like me the trouble of doing certain experiments, though.

As for me, I'd rather spend my time shooting and making slingshots than trying to figure out with extreme precision what it is I'm doing. But I have learned a lot from the efforts these fellas share, like what a big difference temperature makes, the effects of live vs dead shooting, ballpark estimates of the different rubber capabilities, etc. And Joerg's experiments concerning energy generation were valuable too.


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## Btoon84 (Nov 22, 2011)

What do you call an occupied bathroom on an airplane?

**Hypotenuse** (high-pot-in-use) :wave:


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Btoon84 said:


> What do you call an occupied bathroom on an airplane?
> 
> **Hypotenuse** (high-pot-in-use) :wave:


All right, KNOCK IT OFF, Toons!


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

The difference to which OS refers has already been remarked in a previous thread on this topic:

http://slingshotforum.com/topic/21898-fork-width-and-speed-two-different-test-results/?p=265462

There I remarked that if one measures along the hypotenuse of the triangle (i.e., along the bands) and maintains a constant distance there, then the velocity will drop because a portion of the velocity vector will be directed perpendicular to the path of the ammo. However, if one maintains a constant distance along the path of the ammo (constant draw length), then the bands will be stretched more with wider forks. Having not done the tests myself, I said that it remained to be seen whether the extra stretch of the bands would compensate for that portion of the velocity vector lost in the perpendicular direction. In this video, Bill shows that indeed that extra stretch will compensate for the perpendicular losses.

I also note here that the differences in velocity are not really that great. I suspect that for most shooters (certainly for me) there will be greater shot-to-shot variation in velocity than would be induced by wider versus narrow forks.

Cheers .... Charles


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2013)

stej said:


> OldSpookASA, you are right that the draw length of the bands is bigger with wide forks than with narrow forks. Imho there is no dispute about that.
> 
> On the other hand - I have 2 thoughts in my mind:
> 
> ...


Both very well made points. The force vector does decrease as a function of fork width. It is an interesting problem, maybe I really should sit down and do some testing.


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2013)

Bill Hays said:


> For example, on youtube I blocked John Webb's father because he thinks it's a good idea to be psychotic,


OMG, roflmao. Well maybe I really should sit down and do some testing. The force vector does also change. It may well be that it is all a wash. One thing we do know for sure is that wider forks are easier to keep lined up and I think you will agree easier to shoot well. No harm intended, I love your videos. One of these days I am going to have to try the match and card shots. I do wish I could shoot like some of you guys do.


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## Aussie Allan In Thailand (Jan 28, 2013)

Just an observation from one with an excellent brain for maths, and physics.
But to dang lazy to use it, unless motivated alot.

I love reading the work of all you guys, and especially Btoons jokes recently: i believe you have covered all the likely real life scenarios.
Therefore further work, (which could potentially go on ad infinitum); should be left to kids in white coats in a lab. As for all practical applications, I believe you have given us the answer; BUT we need a consensus, on who could write such an important article up.

Possibly done by a vote, and not back stabbing after the decision is made, please.

I would like to nominate both OldSpokASA & Charles, both proven excellent writers, who can both get to the point, and reference other material.

Best of luck to all.

Cheers Allan


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2013)

Cjw said:


> I don't get why people are worried about a few FPS. As long as the bands I'm shooting shoot flat and at a reasonably good speed and I can hit my target consistently that's all I care about.


Cjw that isn't really it. I think Dayhiker answered this pretty well. I am driven to understand things. I don't know why. It is in my blood I guess. If I spent more time actually shooting and less time fiddling around I'd be a better shot. In my sig see the quote from Bill Jordan. I know the difference between power and accuracy and accuracy wins hands down most of the time. I did the same thing with bows when compound bows came out. I had to understand what made a fast/powerful bow. It is just me. I think I would like very much to have a clear understanding of all the nuances of these rubber band weapons we build. I also think that Bill answered me quite well. He explained that he and I were saying pretty much the same thing but to different audiences.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Heres the thing, some fellows desire to be The Authority. The Bill Hayes experiment is greatly flawed with the over sized stick cross shooter. This is not how fellow shooters shoot a slingshot. If your going to stretch be bands or tubes before pulling them then you are not duplicating how a forked slingshot operates by its natural order. The point is that Game Keeper John done it right and very simple and not alot of show boating and he did not pump him self up as some authority. The end result is that narrow forks are simply Faster. Now the 1/3rd increase in fps is not by the narrow forks alone but the technique of a one motion shot which is Live Active Shooting.


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## Malleus (Jul 25, 2013)

dgui said:


> Heres the thing, some fellows desire to be The Authority. The Bill Hayes experiment is greatly flawed with the over sized stick cross shooter. This is not how fellow shooters shoot a slingshot. If your going to stretch be bands or tubes before pulling them then you are not duplicating how a forked slingshot operates by its natural order. The point is that Game Keeper John done it right and very simple and not alot of show boating and he did not pump him self up as some authority. The end result is that narrow forks are simply Faster. Now the 1/3rd increase in fps is not by the narrow forks alone but the technique of a one motion shot which is Live Active Shooting.


Just to help me understand exactly what you're saying.

Are you saying the motion of aiming and drawing back the bands should be done much faster, so the bands are not held in a stretched position for

any period of time?

I noticed on your videos it's all a very quick action.

Ian


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Malleus said:


> dgui said:
> 
> 
> > Heres the thing, some fellows desire to be The Authority. The Bill Hayes experiment is greatly flawed with the over sized stick cross shooter. This is not how fellow shooters shoot a slingshot. If your going to stretch be bands or tubes before pulling them then you are not duplicating how a forked slingshot operates by its natural order. The point is that Game Keeper John done it right and very simple and not alot of show boating and he did not pump him self up as some authority. The end result is that narrow forks are simply Faster. Now the 1/3rd increase in fps is not by the narrow forks alone but the technique of a one motion shot which is Live Active Shooting.
> ...


Its all about the unbreakable law of stored energy and not allow this stored heat to cool. Heated bands or tubes are required for maximum speed. Faster is better. A Quick Release with Narrow forks gets it thater Faster. It is that simple concerning the law of cause and effect.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Show me the numbers on a Chronograph without that its all Lip service.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Cjw said:


> Show me the numbers on a Chronograph without that its all Lip service.


Lip Service. I dont think so.

I do not own a crony but if I ever see the need for one it will be post just for those who share in unbelief.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

If you can't measure the FPS how can base your. Claims? Not by penetration tests. We tried that with ballistic putty with air guns any it was way off compared to using a chronograph.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Cjw said:


> If you can't measure the FPS how can base your. Claims? Not by penetration tests. We tried that with ballistic putty with air guns any it was way off compared to using a chronograph.


If you have a crony then you try it.
I cannot justify buying a crony to prove an increase in fps . Perhaps there is another way to prove this so I will think on this.


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## AZ Stinger (Aug 30, 2012)

This thread seems to be the way of this site now and it`s a shame, stupid bickering back and forth over ridiculous things like speed, power, band length and so on, folks spouting all these statistics and graphs showing who knows what... you know what I say, WHO CARES.....It`s a fork, some rubber and a piece of leather, put it together and go shoot it. Seems to me like some grown men just come here to argue about stats and figures and that, I can`t figure out. When I first joined the forum I can honestly say I don`t remember seeing all this BS and it was a great place to stop by and I stopped by often....not anymore. I`m sure there will be many who disagree with me on this and think that all this can only take the sport to a new level and to those folks I agree, I just won`t say where that level is cause in my book it`s on the low side....that being said, still lot`s of great info and some good folks here so I would hope that someday guys will spend more time enjoying slingshot shooting and less time researching the internet on all this info on band elongation and so on and so on....IT`S BORING....spend some time shooting like I have and come to your own conclusions...I`m done, Thank you for listening.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

I agree AZ.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Ya but if I posted I could shoot down 20 cans in a minute you would all be saying prove it on uncut video correct ?


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Cjw said:


> Ya but if I posted I could shoot down 20 cans in a minute you would all be saying prove it on uncut video correct ?


No one has to prove one thing to me. The beauty of the slingshot is that it is unique to the individual and there is no real standard of limitations and if you can bang 20 cans in a minute more power to you. People can raise the bar but no one can set the standard nor can they test you. And if any one claims to be 
THE Authority they rather are a Boaster and a Braggard and for me I reject that totally. I dont like a Showboat.


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

View attachment 40500


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

Come on. Grab that bat and beat that horse. Who's next? You know you want to. It's your ego you know.


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

Do it!!


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

Say it!


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## lightgeoduck (Apr 3, 2011)

sorry guys, even though this could have been a useful thread, it seems to have ran its course.. We already have discussions on this, and the tests have been done.. so the information is out there,,, if anyone has any progressive tests or discovories that they want to share the rest of the forum is still open, but I am afraid I will have to let the horse RIP.

LGD


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