# Am I Crazy or What !



## wll

Thinking about my business (archery) and how much friction and heat plays a part in energy transfer, I decided to do an experiment with tubes.

I ordered a small amount of graphite power and will put a measured very small amount inside each tube before it is assembled. even though logic tell you that the forces of the rubber upon retraction are all going in the same direction ..... who knows if something else is coming into play as to the reason flats in general are faster than tubes ?

1) Is the inside diameter closing on the tubes are what makes it more difficult to pull back and tube conditioning eventually smooths out the inside, could graphite eliminate the conditioning and thus help allow the tubes to stretch easier when new ? ?

2) Upon release, even though you would think everything is in unison, maybe not, and there is some binding ? doesn't make sense unless the inside does need to be smooth to decrease the coefficient of friction in the rubber tube ..... who knows ?

3) if I'm right, does temperature effect the rubbers coefficient of friction and maybe slow down tube speed more than flats ?

Well we will soon find out, just some thoughts.

wll


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## bigron

:blink: what?


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## Lee Silva

Crazy!

hehehehehe...

Pretty close to Zero knowledge to share about tubes.

*Lubrication! *Now that's something of a specialty of mine!!! hehe

Dimethicone (Pure silicone oil) swabbed on the inside of the tubes may be something to try. So long as on the inside, it will stay! Any bit of that slickery zhit gets in your fork or pouch ties could end your scientific inquiries right quick!

If you were to discover any benefit in the use of graphite and find yourself in the market for 50lbs or greater, hit me up! hehehe don't ask how, but I happen to posses several 50lb bags of the stuff... raw form.


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## Imperial

:nerd: im thinking talcum powder would be better, im only taking a guess and basing it all i know or have read about talcum powder being a good way to preserve your latex. btw . . . doesn't graphite keep heat down, in other words insulate from over heating? (off to google info. . . )


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## Imperial

Lee Silva said:


> hehehe don't ask how, but I happen to posses several 50lb bags of the stuff... raw form.


since he works with archery, id be asking him if he'd like to trade for 2 or 3 arrows.


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## wll

Lee Silva said:


> Crazy!
> 
> hehehehehe...
> 
> Pretty close to Zero knowledge to share about tubes.
> 
> *Lubrication! *Now that's something of a specialty of mine!!! hehe
> 
> Dimethicone (Pure silicone oil) swabbed on the inside of the tubes may be something to try. So long as on the inside, it will stay! Any bit of that slickery zhit gets in your fork or pouch ties could end your scientific inquiries right quick!
> 
> If you were to discover any benefit in the use of graphite and find yourself in the market for 50lbs or greater, hit me up! hehehe don't ask how, but I happen to posses several 50lb bags of the stuff... raw form.


Ya, I know I think it is used for welding I believe.

Just did an experiment, took a piece of tubing, put it in my mouth and blew into it, the air came out the other end as you would expect, did the same thing stretching it a little and the air stopped ... so the the tube walls do constrict enough to close the tube ID, now the question is, is that friction enough to effect tube performance.

More to come ;- )

wll


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## wll

Imperial said:


> :nerd: im thinking talcum powder would be better, im only taking a guess and basing it all i know or have read about talcum powder being a good way to preserve your latex. btw . . . doesn't graphite keep heat down, in other words insulate from over heating? (off to google info. . . )


Was going to use talcum powder, but from what I have read, long term contact with talcum can cause the rubber to have problems, I did not know what long term meant so I stuck with graphite ..... lots of experimenting to do for sure.

wll


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## wll

Imperial said:


> :nerd: im thinking talcum powder would be better, im only taking a guess and basing it all i know or have read about talcum powder being a good way to preserve your latex. btw . . . *doesn't graphite keep heat down, in other words insulate from over heating? * (off to google info. . . )


That I don't know, but if there is a possibility of friction and graphite helps stop that ... well we will see :- )

wll


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## wll

Imperial said:


> Lee Silva said:
> 
> 
> 
> hehehe don't ask how, but I happen to posses several 50lb bags of the stuff... raw form.
> 
> 
> 
> since he works with archery, id be asking him if he'd like to trade for 2 or 3 arrows.
Click to expand...

I don't think we have any arrows in the shop. ; -)

wll


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## Lee Silva

Imperial said:


> :nerd: im thinking talcum powder would be better, im only taking a guess and basing it all i know or have read about talcum powder being a good way to preserve your latex. btw . . . doesn't graphite keep heat down, in other words insulate from over heating? (off to google info. . . )


Yes sir... a lot of crucibles and other forge and furnace parts can be made with it. It's why I have it. Just silly to have so dam much of it!


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## pgandy

I believe it Joerg Sprave that said thicker bands had bands offered more friction. He was referring to internal friction. The graphite sounds like an interesting experiment. Keep us posted. No, you are not crazy. I love to experiment. Most are unsuccessful, but every once in a while I stumble onto something making it all worthwhile.


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## bigron

Doc said:


> Wasn't there a Chinese shooter who squeezed all the air out of tubes as he tied them?


yes i used to watch his videos on you tube but i can't remember the channel name but he said by squeezing out all of the air before you tied them to the forks and pouches you got a lot more life out of the tubes


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## wll

pgandy said:


> I believe it Joerg Sprave that said thicker bands had bands offered more friction. He was referring to internal friction. The graphite sounds like an interesting experiment. Keep us posted. No, you are not crazy. * I love to experiment. Most are unsuccessful, but every once in a while I stumble onto something making it all worthwhile. *


My friend, you are just like me, you never know unless you try !

wll


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## Lord Flash-heart

I do a bit of downhill mountain bike racing.

It's a trick to talc the inside of the tyres and the inner tube, the logic is thus.

1) modern tyres are soft durometer rubber so sticky, talcum powder stops the inner sticking to the tyre, when swapping out tubes if not talced they seriously stick to the tyre and need peeling out. In case of needing a quick tube change mid race this costs time.

2) it's reckoned to reduce pinch flats on tyres and allows the tube to move within the tyre, this means the tyre is more supple so more grip as it dosen't have the extra thickness of a semi bonded tube holding it back.

I would expect a gain to be found from lubing the inside of tube power band, however the testing would have to very clincial to measure the gains.

So fixed postion in a vice for the SS accurate measurement of draw length and draw weight (before and after lube) maybe a release aid for consistant release and of course weight matched ammo, all small variables that will effect the outcome of FPs reading must be minimalised for a more accurate result.

I would say yes you will find a gain from just squirting some silicone lube down a tube


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## pgandy

That is interesting to know about the tyres, although somewhat after the fact. For some years a bicycle was my choice for transportation, putting 100+ miles on it in an average week. Thinking back on it when pulling a tube out there was what felt like some resistance that I couldn't explain, although I don't remember seeing any ill effects on the tube. I do find talc helps immensely with storage. On more than one occasion the rubber was sticking to itself or a plastic bag they were stored in. Sometimes only a minor peel was all that was necessary and at other times, especially with my tubes, there was visible external damage. I now store all rubber with talc and haven't experienced further problems.

Since following this thread the question I had was how can I get the lub into the small diameters of my Chinese tubes? With liquid, I just remembered that I have some syringes with hypodermic needles left over from the time my dog was sick that I was saving for some reason, just didn't know for what.


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## wll

pgandy said:


> That is interesting to know about the tyres, although somewhat after the fact. For some years a bicycle was my choice for transportation, putting 100+ miles on it in an average week. Thinking back on it when pulling a tube out there was what felt like some resistance that I couldn't explain, although I don't remember seeing any ill effects on the tube. I do find talc helps immensely with storage. On more than one occasion the rubber was sticking to itself or a plastic bag they were stored in. Sometimes only a minor peel was all that was necessary and at other times, especially with my tubes, there was visible external damage. I now store all rubber with talc and haven't experienced further problems.
> 
> Since following this thread the question I had was how can I get the lub into the small diameters of my Chinese tubes? With liquid, I just remembered that I have some syringes with hypodermic needles left over from the time my dog was sick that I was saving for some reason, just didn't know for what.


Give it a try, my graphite arrives Monday :- )

wll


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## pgandy

I needed to make a bandset today, actually I decided to do two while I was at it. I had just begun when I remembered this thread so I decided to lub internally. After a search I found nothing suitable and was putting in on a back burner for another time when I spotted liquid hand soap. I was using 1745 rubber. I located the syringes and found the soap too vicious for such small holes. I diluted 50/50 and that worked with effort. After a few trial and errors I learned how to get the soap into the tubes. I don't know when I'll have a chance to check the sets out but will advise when I have sufficient results.


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## wll

The graphite came in today, i will put it in a single 5/16od tube set tomorrow. As I'm using that size tube now, I will be able to get a good idea if it does something or a pipe dream !

i can tell you the outside of the bottle was very,very slippery. I will put in about as much as a newly sharped pencil, and that I feel is all the is needed, as graphite goes everywhere and goes into the pores of stuff ! This is very fine graphite.

After I put it in, I'll probably be able to tell right away if I'm able to draw my draw easier and a bit further than I am now, I know I'm on to something !

wll


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## wll

*Just put graphite in tubes !*

Just put a small amount of graphite powder in the 5/16od tubes (it was a pain as graphite is dirty as heck, and slippery as ****). Put about as much as is exposed in a newly sharpened pencil, maybe a bit more, used a small straw with the tip cut at a 45deg angle to act as a shovel to do it.

Major things I noticed right away. 

Before:

if you took the tube and pinched it a little and tried to twist it in your fingers, the inside wall would stick together and you could not do that.

After:

It feel like the inside is on ball bearings, it moves on it self with ease, you can feel the tube wall sliding on each other !

Before:

I would draw back and come to a wall and it would be very hard to pull back further.

After:

It is easier to pull these tubes back than ever before, I'm very impressed ! The graphite made a big difference. I'm almost afraid of pulling to far ! This is the first time i have been able to reach a full 38" draw easily and still can go back a bit further !

Now when I get home---the real test :

1) Does this lubrication increase speed ?

2) Does the loss of friction on the inside of the tube decrease speed ? (a real possibility, as the binding of the walls when stretched may play a part in tube speed, who knows)

3) Is it the same as before ?

Stay tuned, as I'm looking forward to this, I hope it does what I'm expecting?

wll


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## AZshooter

As far as lubrication goes I find that ArmorAll does a fantastic job for me on ALL rubber products...including neoprene bike inner tubes and cut strips of same...It seems to extend the life of rubber and I like to use it on FISHING MONOFILAMENT to extend the life ( and strength ) of my fishing lines...Since I use 1 and 2 pound test lines a lot this ArmorAll has been a lifesaver for me...Phil


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## wll

*3/4oz egg Weight Tests are Done* !

Findings with these 316gr egg weights:

1)The velocity is a bit higher then the non treated on average, but with much more higher consistency. My speed was 172fps for shot after shot if I did my part. My other tests had 6fps highs and lows and some varied more than that.

2) The draw is smoother feeling and I liked that a lot.

3) The sling seemed to be quieter upon shooting, I liked that a lot too.

The slack length of the treated set is 9", the slack length on the non treated set is 8.5" ----- I don't know how much that would have made a difference.

I was hoping for a major speed increase of about 7-10%, but facts are facts. The higher consistence was a very nice plus though.and an increase of 163fps to 172 fps was a plus indeed

Will I do this on the rest of my tube sets ... yes, the smoothness of draw and the velocity increase/consistency, along with the quieter shot are worth it to me.

Will report on 1/2oz tomorrow !

wll


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## wll

pgandy said:


> That is interesting to know about the tyres, although somewhat after the fact. For some years a bicycle was my choice for transportation, putting 100+ miles on it in an average week. Thinking back on it when pulling a tube out there was what felt like some resistance that I couldn't explain, although I don't remember seeing any ill effects on the tube. I do find talc helps immensely with storage. On more than one occasion the rubber was sticking to itself or a plastic bag they were stored in. Sometimes only a minor peel was all that was necessary and at other times, especially with my tubes, there was visible external damage. I now store all rubber with talc and haven't experienced further problems.
> 
> Since following this thread the question I had was how can I get the lub into the small diameters of my Chinese tubes? With liquid, I just remembered that I have some syringes with hypodermic needles left over from the time my dog was sick that I was saving for some reason, just didn't know for what.


Pgandy,

Have you had a chance to try it out, I would like to see your results ?

wll


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## pgandy

I made two identical bandsets and attached one yesterday to an old retired slingshot that I thought was good enough to use as a test platform. Yesterday morning I got 10 shots off. I do 60 before testing as I found that I sometimes get more power after 30 shots. So I arbitrary set 60 shots as a bench mark to start testing. I should have results with the first bandset by, if not before, the weekend.


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## wll

Just finished testing 3/4oz (316gr) and 1/2oz(205gr) egg weights with internal conditioning. (Graphite lubrication of internal walls). Temp 69.3 degrees

I used the *very same* tube set and sling that I have used for the past week, (not the sling I used for testing yesterday) The ONLY thing I did was put graphite in the tube. Tubes were the same length as they were last week.

*3/4oz test*

*Before lubrication*: Speed with 3/4oz 316gr egg weights was 163fps on average

*After lubrication*: Speed with 3/4oz 316gr egg weights is 175fps ..... almost 7% increase in speed ..... I'm ecstatic !!!! Like I mentioned in a previous post, this is not just the highest speed, all speeds were in the 174-176 range, very consistent.

*1/2oz test*

*Before lubrication*: Speed with 1/2oz 205gr egg weights was 192fps on average

*After lubrication*: Speed with 1/2oz 205gr egg weights is 195fps ... very little difference in speed .. It may be that the 5/16OD is only capable of a top speed in this range and is more efficient with the 3/4oz !

I'm very pleased with the test results, as I mentioned I will from now on use internal conditioning on all my tubes.The feel is nicer and smoother for sure, and the tubes are quieter.

I urge everybody that reads this to try it out and report back your results, they may differ from mine, who knows ?

One important thing is ..... it takes about 5-10 shots to get things going after conditioning, the graphite really has to get in the pores or ? for you to start to see the difference.

wll


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## pgandy

I tested my first soap lubed set yesterday and found speed down slightly but within the variations that I expect within differing sets with the same type tube and configuration. So it appears the soap is not the answer. Will test the other set ASAP. I don't know if it was my imagination not the draw and let off seemed to be smoother. It is too soon to know about band life.


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## wll

pgandy said:


> I tested my first soap lubed set yesterday and found speed down slightly but within the variations that I expect within differing sets with the same type tube and configuration. So it appears the soap is not the answer. Will test the other set ASAP. I don't know if it was my imagination not the draw and let off seemed to be smoother. It is too soon to know about band life.


It took about 5-10 shots to settle in. If the soap hardens it may slow thing down, I don't know ? I may try talcum powder next , as the tubes in use may not last the time it takes takes to cause problems with the rubber ... I don't know.

wll


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## wll

Just tested a 3060 pseudo taper, I was getting 213fps using 113ge egg sinkers ( that was a few weeks ago), after my treatment and some conditioning shots (about10) I was averaging 232+fps that is a 9% increase in speed .... can you spell happy ;- )

*Importan*t: I'm finding there is a break in period after conditioning, I got the first 1 or 2 shots that were quite a bit slower (and it is just those first shots). After that the speed will be more consistent after the next 5-8 shots.

i will shoot some heavy weight using this set up tomorrow. Last I checked I got 180fps shooting 184gr 9/16 steel, (That again was about three weeks or so ago).

wll


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## wll

*Could not wait till tomorrow !*

The 9/16 bearings that weighs ~184gr came in at 198fps (had a few shots that were a little higher)

180fps compared to 198fps ..... That is 10% increase on the nose .... I think this idea works !

I need a new blanket as the testing has ripped the blanket to shreds !

205 gr lead is coming out at the same speed at the 5/16 od single at 193fps

3060 pseudos have a nice even semi hard pull, not bad at all, not as tough as the 5/16od !

This 5-10fps don't mean that much to target shooters, but to guys in the field shooting ammo with some weight, it makes a good difference in hitting power !

I'm all smiles ;- )

wll


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## pgandy

I had not thought of soaping hardening. In this case I think not. It was liquid and remains in a liquid state in the bottle. But a small amount over a period of time could harden. I am using 1745 rubber which has a smaller ID than what you are experimenting with. I had to dilute the soap 50/50 with water to get it in, and then with difficulty. I doubt if I could get graphite or talc in side. But am considering different methods.


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## Lord Flash-heart

wll, excellent reading and results.

A question on the slight variable of fps ? do you have a grain scale ? have you weighed a batch of balls or is it just random pick balls at a claimed base weight.

I do archery as well, we have a rough guide of for every +/- 5gr of weight you alter FPS by 1

So if the balls/ammo used have a variance of 10-20gr between them that would account for around a 4FPS difference, if you had a dozen perfect or really tight weight matched balls and can lock down a perfect constant anchor point, then FPS output would be even more consistant.

For Alu or carbon arrows getting around +/- 2gr on 30" arrows is fairly easy, with time and extra glue and ptfe tape on point threads you can get a perfect weight match. Absolute P.I.A. trying to weight match wooden shaft arrows.

Enjoying the geek out and eyeing up a pencil to pull apart and grind down the core


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## wll

Lord Flash-heart said:


> wll, excellent reading and results.
> 
> A question on the slight variable of fps ? do you have a grain scale ? have you weighed a batch of balls or is it just random pick balls at a claimed base weight.
> 
> I do archery as well, we have a rough guide of for every +/- 5gr of weight you alter FPS by 1
> 
> So if the balls/ammo used have a variance of 10-20gr between them that would account for around a 4FPS difference, if you had a dozen perfect or really tight weight matched balls and can lock down a perfect constant anchor point, then FPS output would be even more consistant.
> 
> For Alu or carbon arrows getting around +/- 2gr on 30" arrows is fairly easy, with time and extra glue and ptfe tape on point threads you can get a perfect weight match. Absolute P.I.A. trying to weight match wooden shaft arrows.
> 
> Enjoying the geek out and eyeing up a pencil to pull apart and grind down the core


Lord -----

Yes, I have a electronic grain scale and weigh them, all the weights are from the same source and lot .

The weight does not vary with the units I test more than about 3 grains. Many of these test are done at close range to the catch box and I use the exact same weight piece.

BTW: I used to shoot trad a lot and yes, matching Cedar shafts is not a P.I.A. ...... it is a TOTAL P.I.A. ;- )

Talk to ya later buddy,

wll


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## wll

My 5/8" bearings came in, and a small test;

256gr 5/8" bearing using 5/16 OD tubes going out at 188fps. I fired about to shots and 7 of them were 188fps One 189fps, one 187fps and one 185fps (fps felt soft when I let it go !

I can say that the I.T. (internally treated) tubes are very consistent and have very good speed. The 5/16 is very good with ammo in the 250gr-300gr range for sure, not quite as efficient with the 205gr ammo, but still very effective.

This all breaks down to;

188fps x 256grs = 48,128u/m - 20fpe 0 yds

142fps x 256grs = 36,352u/m - 11fpe 50 yds (Actually much closer to 12fpe than 11 fpe)

That is some powerhouse for the hunter for sure !

wll


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## Btoon84

I'm impressed to see these results. Thanks for taking the time to document and perform some decent testing, as it appears you have.  I'd be interested in hearing the sound dampening qualities associated with the graphite fill. If it is indeed much quieter or just marginal. What are your thoughts? Got a way to measure decibels?


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## Rick O'Shay

Wow this is a very interesting thread. How is it we mankind can take the simple concept of propelling a object and continually complicate it lol.....I love it way to think outside the box and thank you for the hard work you have done.


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## wll

Btoon84 said:


> I'm impressed to see these results. Thanks for taking the time to document and perform some decent testing, as it appears you have.  I'd be interested in hearing the sound dampening qualities associated with the graphite fill. If it is indeed much quieter or just marginal. What are your thoughts? Got a way to measure decibels?





Dan Hoopes said:


> Wow this is a very interesting thread. How is it we mankind can take the simple concept of propelling a object and continually complicate it lol.....I love it way to think outside the box and thank you for the hard work you have done.


Btoon84 - The sound is hard to do as every draw has a bit of a different push or feel, and hence a bit of a sound difference. The sound is if this makes sense is... not as harsh, it is a softer sound, it is hard to describe.

Dan Hoopes - Thank you for listening. This testing came after thinking on what can cause something to slow down, and I thought friction. I did not think the pull would have as much of a smoother feeling as it does. I'm very thrilled that I have been getting a 5-9ish percent fps increase in velocity. Where it makes the difference is in the momentum, it makes big difference in the power transmitted to the target (especially with heavy ammo), and that is what I was hoping for.

I have 3060 single and 4070 single I hope to be testing tomorrow.

Thanks guys for your support, it means a lot.

wll


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## pgandy

How do you fill your tubes with graphite? And do you fill to coat the inner walls or to have ample surplus of graphite lose in the tube?


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## wll

pgandy said:


> How do you fill your tubes with graphite? And do you fill to coat the inner walls or to have ample surplus of graphite lose in the tube?


I use one of these funnel caps and stick the nose in the tbe and then just keep moving the tube till it fall in the tube hole.









I put about as much in as would cover your little fingernail.

wll


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## Btoon84

i wonder if there are any other materials that would perform better. Although it sounds like you are getting decent performance with the graphite. I would have never thought the graphite would have that effect. Interesting. I'm also interested to see how you tie your tubesets up without spilling graphite everywhere  and you may have already said this, but are you looping the tubes or using single pieces?


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## pgandy

Glycerine came to my mind this morning. Graphite is a bit dirty. Glycerine is viscous put if I remember correctly can be thinned with water.


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## wll

pgandy said:


> Glycerine came to my mind this morning. Graphite is a bit dirty. Glycerine is viscous put if I remember correctly can be thinned with water.


That may work fine, we are all in this together .. yes graphite is dirtier than crud !

wll


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## wll

Test for 3060 I.T. tubes today 2-7-15 63deg

2-7-15

3060 Single I.T. Tubes

1/2 steel bearings = 200fps

9/16 bearings = 180 fps

5/8 steel bearing = 158fps

1/2oz egg sinkers = 173

3/4oz egg weights = 150fps

5/8 marbles - 3/4 jawbreakers = 219fps

1/4 oz egg weights = 208 fps

These tubes pulled back very smooth and very light feeling after being treated. Much,much lighter than untreated looped 1745

There are some ammo weights I would use and some not, this tube size IMHO is good for:

1/2 bearing (130gr)

9/16 bearing (184gr)

1/2oz sinker (205gr)

5/8 marbles and 3/4 Jawbreakers (84-90gr)

1/4 oz weights (113gr)

With a single tube 3060 in my testing I would use ammo in the 85-200gr range, above 200grs and speed nose dives, those have a Line through them.

205 gr is OK with 3060 as that is the approximate speed I get with my 315gr 3/4 oz 5/16od tubes and it would be very hypocritical to say yes to one and no to another. At 175ish fps the ammo is shooting flat enough for me to live with ... 150fps is to slow for my liking as I want a flatter trajectory.

With 5/16od and the 3060 I feel comfortable with any weight ammo I would use.

Ammo weight perimeters I like with these tube sizes

85-184gr = 3060 single tubes

200-315 gr = 5/16od single tubes

(The 200gr is a cross over, but would prefer the 5/16od as it gives me another 20fps or so).

Band Slack 8.25"

Draw 38+"

wll


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## Susi

Would talcum powder work, it's sort of lubricating and a lot less messy than graphite powder. Would running a swab down the tube fed primarily using s fine wire lubbed with silicone inert lube work?

If you have a chronometer that's the only way to test whether lubed tubes have any advantage and a constant pull length.


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## wll

Susi said:


> Would talcum powder work, it's sort of lubricating and a lot less messy than graphite powder. Would running a swab down the tube fed primarily using s fine wire lubbed with silicone inert lube work?
> 
> If you have a chronometer that's the only way to test whether lubed tubes have any advantage and a constant pull length.


Susi, I don't know if you have seen all my other post, but I compare non treated and treated. Yes all is chronographed and the temperature indicated, along with static tube length and my draw length. have not used talcum powder, just graphite, may try Moly, not sure. I have been getting a 5-9 % increase in speed, a much softer pull and a quieter shot. The last test I did not include a non treated tube because I don't want to waste the time setting up two tube sets, as I now know that this works and it does make a difference in speed, ease of pulling and sound.

I just set up a 4070 single tube set and I started laughing because the pull was so very, very easy, much easier than looped 1745 tubes for sure. I tried pulling some untreated 4070 and they were much harder to pull and in fact came out of my hand.

I'm so impressed that I don't see myself ever setting up a tube set without treating them. The ease of pulling back thicker tubes without any strain is well worth this treatment alone !

The other lubricants you mentioned ... I urge you to try them, you may find something that works better than what I have done, who knows .. it is all about improving the ballistics and shooting behavior as far as I'm concerned ;- )

wll


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## POI

Lee Silva said:


> Crazy!
> 
> hehehehehe...
> 
> Pretty close to Zero knowledge to share about tubes.
> 
> *Lubrication! *Now that's something of a specialty of mine!!! hehe
> 
> Dimethicone (Pure silicone oil) swabbed on the inside of the tubes may be something to try. So long as on the inside, it will stay! Any bit of that slickery zhit gets in your fork or pouch ties could end your scientific inquiries right quick!
> 
> If you were to discover any benefit in the use of graphite and find yourself in the market for 50lbs or greater, hit me up! hehehe don't ask how, but I happen to posses several 50lb bags of the stuff... raw form.


need to be super careful with your connections if you play with silicon oils. That stuff will work it's way in on every draw and you'll be pulling free of yourforks if your not careful.


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## POI

pgandy said:


> I tested my first soap lubed set yesterday and found speed down slightly but within the variations that I expect within differing sets with the same type tube and configuration. So it appears the soap is not the answer. Will test the other set ASAP. I don't know if it was my imagination not the draw and let off seemed to be smoother. It is too soon to know about band life.


I am thinking that any viscose liquid will drain energy to force it into a new shape rapidly as you release as it will not compress...So my gut says dry lube is the way to go ...looking forward to being wrong though,

Great thread ALL.

Anyone thought of white lithium grease... I don't think it would penetrate like silicon...I have no idea of interactivity w/ rubber...just dreamin'


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## wll

POI said:


> Lee Silva said:
> 
> 
> 
> Crazy!
> 
> hehehehehe...
> 
> Pretty close to Zero knowledge to share about tubes.
> 
> *Lubrication! *Now that's something of a specialty of mine!!! hehe
> 
> Dimethicone (Pure silicone oil) swabbed on the inside of the tubes may be something to try. So long as on the inside, it will stay! Any bit of that slickery zhit gets in your fork or pouch ties could end your scientific inquiries right quick!
> 
> If you were to discover any benefit in the use of graphite and find yourself in the market for 50lbs or greater, hit me up! hehehe don't ask how, but I happen to posses several 50lb bags of the stuff... raw form.
> 
> 
> 
> need to be super careful with your connections if you play with silicon oils. That stuff will work it's way in on every draw and you'll be pulling free of yourforks if your not careful.
Click to expand...

I'm using graphite and so far it works great. i put in about as much volume as a 5/16 inch ball. I like it because it is very light and being a powder it is non gumming.

wll


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## wll

2-8-15

Test for 4070 Internally treated tubes. 59.5 deg

4070 I.T. Tubes

1/2" bearings = 213fps

9/16 bearings = 188fps

5/8 bearings 169fps

1/2oz (205gr) egg sinker = 186fps

3/4oz (315gr) egg sinker = 160

Static length 8.5 inches

38" draw

This size shoots the mid weight hunting ammo well, but does not handle the heavy stuff like the Kent 5/16od Looks like the sweet spot is the 184-205gr weight in a single tube.5/8" bearing was very close and may be OK in warmer temp. Lined out speeds are too slow for my liking.

From my testing so far I think the 3060 for light stuff and 5/16od for heaver stuff are my tubes of choice. Tubes will be internally treated as I get 5-9ish % more velocity and a MUCH ,MUCH nicer pull. Looped tubes of smaller size may get better speed, but everything is a trade off, I want a simple single tube in the field.

Please if any of you do internal treatment testing with the tubes, please post, it is the only way everybody can learn.. you may find something that is better than what I'm experimenting with ... and I hope you do, it will benefit me as well as others.

wll


----------



## pgandy

From POI: "I am thinking that any viscose liquid will drain energy to force it into a new shape rapidly as you release as it will not compress...So my gut says dry lube is the way to go ...looking forward to being wrong though,"

The liquid soap out of the bottle was too viscose to be squirted into the 1745 even with a syringe and needle so I thinned approximately 50/50 with water and inserted .2 ml. While thin to the touch it was still too viscose to flow in that small hole so after inserting I blew the .2 ml through the tube catching the excess in a paper towel. I need more testing to see if there is any speed increase or worth the effort. I can say that the pull and release are smoother. The bandset that I used it in pulls as like my preferred set which gave slightly less energy but is smoother.

Got curious and just now inserted .2 ml of water into a piece of 1745 from a broken set I have here on my desk. The water went in easier but had to be blown through. I repeated it twice and the last two times the water flowed through on its own. Perhaps thinning more than 50% and wetting the inner walls first maybe the way to go. The soap appears to have some affect but I believe there is a better lub.


----------



## wll

pgandy said:


> From POI: "I am thinking that any viscose liquid will drain energy to force it into a new shape rapidly as you release as it will not compress...So my gut says dry lube is the way to go ...looking forward to being wrong though,"
> 
> The liquid soap out of the bottle was too viscose to be squirted into the 1745 even with a syringe and needle so I thinned approximately 50/50 with water and inserted .2 ml. While thin to the touch it was still too viscose to flow in that small hole so after inserting I blew the .2 ml through the tube catching the excess in a paper towel. I need more testing to see if there is any speed increase or worth the effort. I can say that the pull and release are smoother. The bandset that I used it in pulls as like my preferred set which gave slightly less energy but is smoother.
> 
> Got curious and just now inserted .2 ml of water into a piece of 1745 from a broken set I have here on my desk. The water went in easier but had to be blown through. I repeated it twice and the last two times the water flowed through on its own. Perhaps thinning more than 50% and wetting the inner walls first maybe the way to go. The soap appears to have some affect but I believe there is a better lub.


pgandy,

Yes it is a process, and I'm sure is a lot easier with tubes that have a bigger I.D.

I look at it as if I'm reloading ammo, it may take me a total of 20-30 minutes, but it is 500-1000+ shots I'm getting ;-)

wll


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## nutthrower

wII -

well have really enjoyed this subject, will be trying this out for sure - what kind of graphite are you using or would it matter?

oh and by the way received my egg weights the other day quick service, got both 1/2"...3/4" oz and also ordered the 5/16" OD tubes but get this instead of heading out west (Washington state) they (the tubes) went to San Juan, PR :iono:........ ya so still waiting - thanks for your help with the set-up


----------



## wll

nutthrower said:


> wII -
> 
> well have really enjoyed this subject, will be trying this out for sure - what kind of graphite are you using or would it matter?
> 
> oh and by the way received my egg weights the other day quick service, got both 1/2"...3/4" oz and also ordered the 5/16" OD tubes but get this instead of heading out west (Washington state) they (the tubes) went to San Juan, PR :iono:........ ya so still waiting - thanks for your help with the set-up


Wow, PR is a long way from Washington ;- )

How you like the 1/2oz and 3/4oz egg weights .. I like them a lot.

I bought the graphite on e-bay, it is 75 microns, 275 mesh by LoudWolfLimited. It will come with the screw on funnel cap. I use a straw to get the graphite out of the bottle and put that in the cap after the cap is inserted into the tube. I then shake and move the cap till the graphite is in the tube. It is a process, It is something that I will do and just get better at it as time goes on.

Like I mentioned, I look at it as a reloading process, except I get about 1000 shots out of it !

Keep me posted, do you have a chronograph, very important to see how much faster the Internally treated tube set is compared to a non treated tube set. Be sure to note the smooth feeling on pulling back the tube set ;- ) I get a speed increase of 5-9ish%

Before you chrono the Internally treated tubes, take about 5 or 6 shots, I takes a few shots to get the graphite well dispersed in the tube.

Good luck, and again keep us all posted.

wll


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## pgandy

My double 1745 pseudo tapered bandset w/soap broke at 229 shots. It appears that soap neither contributed to an increase of speed nor band life at this point. However, that is only one set and I have the second set mounted for testing.


----------



## wll

pgandy said:


> My double 1745 pseudo tapered bandset w/soap broke at 229 shots. It appears that soap neither contributed to an increase of speed nor band life at this point. However, that is only one set and I have the second set mounted for testing.


That is good to know, I'm excited to hear about your other band set. I have not used the graphite on smaller tubes, so I don't know, very interesting.

wll


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## pgandy

The bandsets with and without soap are the same. The sets with soap averaged 0.1 fpe less than non-soaped bands. This within experimental error.


----------



## wll

pgandy said:


> The bandsets with and without soap are the same. The sets with soap averaged 0.1 fpe less than non-soaped bands. This within experimental error.


Great, thank you for your help. I have been shooting a lot and have some new tubes coming (3070, and green DUB DUB) I'll see what that does :- )

wll


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## wll

Got some Rolyan green tubing from Patterson Medical today. The green is #3 on their stiffness scale.

For me it is actually very nice easy tubing to pull, it did want to stop at a certain point and if you squeezed the tube and tried to twist it in your fingers, it would not budge ... more than any other brand tube I tested.

Well I treated the inside of these tubes and a what major difference in feel ... It is even easier to pull, it does not come to an abrupt stop, and you can pull the tubes as hard as you want and easily twist them in your fingers.

I will test before the weekend.

I will tell you putting graphite in these tubes is one heck of a messy job, spill any on your floor and you can wind up slipping and falling on your butt, no joke ! But for me, it is well worth it.

You can see a pic below ....









wll


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## wll

Green Dub Dub Tube Test 73deg

81/4" static and 38" draw

1/2" bearings = 213fps

9/16" bearings = 190 fps

1/2oz (205gr) egg sinker =182 fps

3/4oz (315gr) egg sinker = 158 fps

The Green Dub Dub shoots ammo in the 130-200gr very well with a very light pull. Ammo in the 300gr shoots very slowly. I will test 7/16 and 5/8 by this Friday.

This Green is very easy to pull back and has a lot of elasticity feeling to it. and it out performs my 3060 and very close/tie to the 4070 at a fraction of the pull weight, I'm very impressed !

My only concern is how long it will last as it seems very thin and flimsy, but we will see.

wll


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## nutthrower

73 deg. must be nice  so it appears the ol 5/16 tubes still out perform ....looking forward to trying out the Graphite


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## wll

nutthrower said:


> 73 deg. must be nice  so it appears the ol 5/16 tubes still out perform ....looking forward to trying out the Graphite


Was delivered today a bit after 4pm ?

Yes 5/16od still out performs it, but it is harder to pull, where the 5/16 stands out is in the upper heavy range range barley with the 256gr steel but beating the 315gr lead by a substantial margin. That 130gr to 200ish gr area is good for these tubes. If you have 5/8 steel, they are still very good at a shade over 180fps, very powerful medicine indeed !

As always from now on all tubes will be I. T. for testing as I'm not about to spend the time to make tubes and start out with a 5-9% speed deficit. The treatment was very, very noticeable on these tubes as far as ease of pull, like night and day.

wll


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## nutthrower

aw indeed it was , question, I have a set of tubes I'm already using , 5080's from China , have about 50 shots through them , would these be an alright candidate to try the graphite in being they have been broke in somewhat already?


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## wll

aw indeed it was , question, I have a set of tubes I'm already using , 5080's from China , have about 50 shots through them , would these be an alright candidate to try the graphite in being they have been broke in somewhat already?

Yes, as you already know how these feel and shoot and you will be able to tell the difference between the treated and untreated with the same tubes, it is the perfect way to do it.

Use two of the cut straw end shovels full per side. I'm excited to hear the results ;- ) Those are the perfect tubes to test as they are Chinese big tubes with a big ID so they will be easier to put graphite in.

wll


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## nutthrower

Alright, graphite installed, this was accomplished by removing the end opposite of pouch leaving pouch attached, carefully putting in the graphite as you said then pinched the opened end and shook it around to distribute through out the tube, my tubes have a 3" loop at this end that's why I shook it around before reattaching - so went out and shot about 25 times, now there's this power of suggestion thing, being you said what you were experiencing with your tubes, but....... right now I really feel that my draw did get easier, I'm just saying, knowing good and well this is what I was hoping to feel, you know what I'm saying - so I'm going to continue to shoot this one and set up another tube set and try that one and see how it comes out , but I do feel mine got easier to pull and I picked up about and inch or so draw length from where I was previously at, I can tell this by my stiff shoulder not hurting as much at my draw length, again the power of suggestion will enter in to others mind, they'll have to try it for themselves, but I'm liking it

Nut


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## wll

nutthrower said:


> Alright, graphite installed, this was accomplished by removing the end opposite of pouch leaving pouch attached, carefully putting in the graphite as you said then pinched the opened end and shook it around to distribute through out the tube, my tubes have a 3" loop at this end that's why I shook it around before reattaching - so went out and shot about 25 times, now there's this power of suggestion thing, being you said what you were experiencing with your tubes, but....... right now I really feel that my draw did get easier, I'm just saying, knowing good and well this is what I was hoping to feel, you know what I'm saying - so I'm going to continue to shoot this one and set up another tube set and try that one and see how it comes out , but I do feel mine got easier to pull and I picked up about and inch or so draw length from where I was previously at, I can tell this by my stiff shoulder not hurting as much at my draw length, again the power of suggestion will enter in to others mind, they'll have to try it for themselves, but I'm liking it
> 
> Nut


Yes, the power of suggestion is a powerful thing, but be as non partial as you can. Yes, one of the first things I first noticed when I started this experiment last month or so was the ease of my draw and the fact that at full draw it could still pull further if I had the draw length.

Keep me posted on your progress, I'm very interested in your non partial view, and you won't hurt my feelings if you don't like it.

For me, I'm greatly enjoying the easier pull and the increase in speed making a good difference in downrange momentum/energy, especially with heavier ammo, for me is what I was after.

Thank you,

wll


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## wll

I have no idea. give it a try and see if it lessens the stacking and increases your speed ? I don't see how it would allow the tubes to move freely and allow for an easing of pull , but who knows ? ..... give it a try and see what you come up with, it may work, the theory has been around for a while I think, but i don't think anyone really has pursed it ?

As a side note, I just found that the Chinese have been doing the tube internal lubrication for a few years ... It is called a tube cocktail. They use tools to do it and they install a smaller tube inside a big one.

I sure wish I spoke Chinese. I will contact Danny to see if I can locate the tools and instructions on their use ..... very interesting for sure !

wll


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## wll

Doc said:


> What happens to the air within the tubes when you stretch them? It must get compressed. If there's no air to compress maybe it'll be easier to draw. I don't really know, just throwing the idea out there. I've no means to test it either.


Have no idea, but the fact that the inner wall would be in strong contact and could not move may make the pulling harder, I have no idea. Somebody may want to test if they are interested in vacuumed tubes ?

wll


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## wll

Did a little more testing with Green Dub Dub today 69deg.

73 deg. must be nice  so it appears the ol 5/16 tubes still out perform ....looking forward to trying out the Graphite

7/16" steel leaves out at 233fps, tested the others they were about 3-5fps+- of what I did yesterday.

So far I'm very impressed with this Green Dub Dub for ammo in the 100-200+gr range. the 86gr 7/16" steel is on the lowest end I would ever shoot with this tube set, but it does shoot it well. The 5/8" came in about 175 and that was an average of a lot of shots ... this 5/8" steel ball I feel is at the major upper end for this tube set, although 175fps with a 256gr slug is not to shabby ;- )

I will shoot it this weekend to see how well it holds up. It is very quick responsive tubing and has a lot of zip, but Like I said it does not near as heavy duty as 3060, 4070, or my 5/16OD which seems a little lighter duty than the Dankung tubes

wll


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## nutthrower

so Wll ,,,,,,,,in what way do you feel the graphite is causing the effect we're experiencing? would it be less friction on the inner rubber not sticking as its drawn back, or can it actually be somewhat absorbed in to the rubber itself, or maybe both? oh and those egg weights are AWESOME thumpers

nut


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## wll

It may be burnishing in the tube on a micron level, but I don't know, but the coating of the inside wall I think is the main thing. I'm convinced that now the tubes can easily slide when in contact with each other and are not binding each other up. If you pull on a tube that you have just done and stretch it 500% you can still side the inner walls against each other .... they just don't bind on each other !!

I think that loss of friction between the wall allows the tube to be pulled back easier, and at the same time increases its speed.

I just bought some MOS powder to try also, it is suppose to have more lubricity than graphite ..... even though graphite powder and MOS look the same they are not, two different compounds.

This experiment is getting interesting as far as I'm concerned ;-)

wll


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## nutthrower

MOS powder, sounds interesting, I've shot Air Guns for years, and own an R-1 Beeman , love that rifle - any who I can remember way back when first getting into the German made air guns they had a product called Moly powder I think for the spring chamber - any thoughts on that ,


----------



## wll

nutthrower said:


> MOS powder, sounds interesting, I've shot Air Guns for years, and own an R-1 Beeman , love that rifle - any who I can remember way back when first getting into the German made air guns they had a product called Moly powder I think for the spring chamber - any thoughts on that ,


LOL, LOL I have HUGE collection of air rifles. Crow Magnums, RX2's, Careers, R1's and many, many more. Yes I got the idea to use MOS powder from air gunning .... good call ;- )

Mos is pretty expensive compared to graphite, almost 3 times the cost. I have pure powder coming, it is suppose to have more lubricity than graphite, we will see.

I got it from LoudWolfLimited on e-bay, they are a chemical supplier.

I'm also toying with the idea of a "Chinese Tube Cocktail", so I may need to get a hollow Chinese chop stick and ?. I have a text in to Danny at Dankung to find out about it.

You get to shoot the treated tubes yet, inquisitive minds want to know ;-)

wll


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## poekoelan

Wow. Just stumbled across this doing a search for dankung tubing. Very good stuff. We've always heard that flats shoot faster than tubes, especially in colder temps. And that has been my experience but I prefer tubes for longevity. But I've always wondered why flats are faster. Rubber is rubber no matter what shape it is.

And then there are those that say that they don't like tubes because they just can't shoot them as accurately. Some say they get a lot of flyers with tubes. I'm not a good enough shot to tell the difference. But I think you just answered both of those questions and figured out how to solve the problems. Internal friction is probably the cause for both of those problems. Excellent work.

My next order is going to be some 3060 tubing and a tube of graphite. Any updates on your experiments,wll?


----------



## wll

poekoelan said:


> Wow. Just stumbled across this doing a search for dankung tubing. Very good stuff. We've always heard that flats shoot faster than tubes, especially in colder temps. And that has been my experience but I prefer tubes for longevity. But I've always wondered why flats are faster. Rubber is rubber no matter what shape it is.
> 
> And then there are those that say that they don't like tubes because they just can't shoot them as accurately. Some say they get a lot of flyers with tubes. I'm not a good enough shot to tell the difference. But I think you just answered both of those questions and figured out how to solve the problems. Internal friction is probably the cause for both of those problems. Excellent work.
> 
> My next order is going to be some 3060 tubing and a tube of graphite. Any updates on your experiments,wll?


I have done some more testing on these past couple of weeks, and on average I get 8-9% increase in speed. The application of graphite powder can be a pain, but I've been doing it so much I'm used to it. 

You can really feel the difference of your draw as it is lighter and smother, Just take a tube and try to roll it in your fingers, most times you can't. (Some tubes have the mold release still in the tubes so there is no need to internally treat them). Now put some graphite powder in the tubes and you will notice that the tube can very easily be rolled on itself between your fingers, the gabbing is gone, it just slips and slides.

I treat every tube I have now shoot, I have done enough testing to know it works. 8-9% fps increase may not sound like a lot, but it is a big difference when using heavy ammo, and gives me a increase in trajectory line of sight of about 5-7 yds ...... I'll take it, as an example my 5/16od tubes would shoot 315gr lead weights at ~165fps ... when treated I get about 178fps .... a very big difference. My static length is ~8.25", and my draw is ~38-39". If I use a push pull fast release, I can get a bit more speed, but I try to shoot my test like I would shoot in the field,

I get the graphite powder from : http://www.ebay.com/itm/Graphite-275-Mesh-Powder-4-Ounces-99-98-Pure-Military-Grade-SHIPS-FAST-/391114970568?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b1044d5c8

wll


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## pgandy

@wll A question popped into my mind regarding your graphite impregnated tubes. It is academic as one should be wearing eye protection but what is the effect when a tube breaks?


----------



## wll

pgandy said:


> @wll A question popped into my mind regarding your graphite impregnated tubes. It is academic as one should be wearing eye protection but what is the effect when a tube breaks?


Have no idea, except that since it is just super fine pencil lead ground up, I don't think much will happen except you will get graphite on you.

wll


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## pgandy

I had mentioned "eye" but had envisioned clothes.


----------



## wll

It has been about 3-4 months now and still using the same internally treated tubes that I started out with plus a few more tube set ups on other slings.

So far I have not had any problems and the tubes are performing the same as before. The draw has stayed the same (good thing) and is an easier draw than non treated tubes for sure (no stacking). Speed increase has stayed the same ish at the +8% increase.

I have been very, very happy with this experiment so far. Every tube set I have installed on other slings I have internally treated the same way, and I don't ever see a reason not to treat any tube set I use ever again. I look at it as reloading ammunition, there are certain steps that need to be done, for me, this is one of those steps.

I don't know how many others of you tried this, you may not because it is another process and can get messy. To some the bit of easier pulling and increase in speed may not be that important, but for me, it is big time !

wll


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## poekoelan

Ok. Got my 3060 tubing and graphite. Made an untreated set and a treated set and after a break in period with both, I busted out the chrony and some .44 lead balls. I have good news and bad news.

First the good news. The graphite treatment does seems to a few more add a few fps, this I proved with the chrony. I have no way to measure draw weight, but it sure seemed like it was a tad less with the treated tubes as well.

Now the bad news. Single 3060 tubing doesn't throw .44 lead fast enough for my liking. The fastest I got with the treated tubes was 188fps. Most shots were in the low to mid 180s. The fastest I got with untreated was 179. Most were in the mid 170s.

Testing was done in my basement where 95pct of my shooting is done. And it was a cool 63 degrees. That may have played a part in the slower speeds, but I'm still searching for the single tube set up that will put my ammo at or near the 200fps mark. Any suggestions?


----------



## wll

I just checked my figures again and yes I was getting at the 200fps with 1/2" steel. The ~8% increase is about right for the speed increase with treated tubes.

I was at the 200fps with 3060 tubes the last I checked ?

What is your static length and what is your draw length ? Also are you a active shooter or do you pull, aim and then shoot, just wondering ?

Oops forgot, did you shoot it about 10 or 15 times before you chronographed it ? My first few readings after installing the graphite were very erratic to say the least, it required a few shots break in period ... have no idea why ?

wll


----------



## poekoelan

6" static length, approx 38" draw length. I do take a second ( literally ) to aim after I feel the bands max out. I know that costs me a few fps.

Did you say that the green dub dub is faster? I may try that next. I don't know why, but I never seem to get the speeds that others get. No matter what bands I use, I'm always at least a little behind what others seem to get with the same set ups. I attribute most of it to my basement where I do my testing. The wife turned on the central air a week or so ago and the basement is down right cold now.

Oh, yeah. I shot both sets at least a couple dozen times before the chrony tests. Just saw your message too. I sent a reply.


----------



## wll

poekoelan said:


> 6" static length, approx 38" draw length. I do take a second ( literally ) to aim after I feel the bands max out. I know that costs me a few fps.
> 
> Did you say that the green dub dub is faster? I may try that next. I don't know why, but I never seem to get the speeds that others get. No matter what bands I use, I'm always at least a little behind what others seem to get with the same set ups. I attribute most of it to my basement where I do my testing. The wife turned on the central air a week or so ago and the basement is down right cold now.
> 
> Oh, yeah. I shot both sets at least a couple dozen times before the chrony tests. Just saw your message too. I sent a reply.


With a 6 Inch static length and a 38" draw, your ammo should be flying out, thats ~630% draw ..... You should be getting 200fps for sure with 1/2" steel. Hummmmm ?

I was getting, last test 175fps using Orange Dub Dub and 1/2" steel ?

Do you push your sling toward the target as you are shooting ... keeping it moving forward as your pouch hand is pulling back ?

wll


----------



## poekoelan

I would say I do very little pushing with my sling hand. I find that for me, I can get on target faster if my sling holding hand is extended before the draw. That way I don't have to hold very long to get a sight picture once I reach the end of my draw. Most of my shooting style comes from the way I shoot a traditional bow.


----------



## wll

poekoelan said:


> I would say I do very little pushing with my sling hand. I find that for me, I can get on target faster if my sling holding hand is extended before the draw. That way I don't have to hold very long to get a sight picture once I reach the end of my draw. Most of my shooting style comes from the way I shoot a traditional bow.


Got ya.

Slingshots are very personal and temperamental creatures, your shooting technique plays a good part in the way the rubber reacts,The fact that I'm constantly moving the fork hand toward the target as I'm drawing back with the pouch hand may have a bit to do with the speed difference.

I know from watching Dgui, if I shot as fast as he does, my speed would be a good bit higher.

wll


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## poekoelan

Did you say you found green roylan tubing to shoot a little faster than 3060?


----------



## eagleyes

The world thought that Christopher Columbus was crazy too when he claimed the earth was a sphere, not flat. Keep up the good work wll


----------



## wll

poekoelan said:


> Did you say you found green roylan tubing to shoot a little faster than 3060?


Yes, Green Dub is very, very good stuff, it is very close to the speed of 5/16 od I use, but It is very deceptive because of the ease that you can pull it back .

The Green Dub is quite a quite bit more versital than 3060. As time goes on I may ditch 3060 in favor or Green Dub as I don't want to be a warehouse for tube testing :- )

I just ordered some Blueberry Dub, Level 4 stuff, if it is as good as I hope, I feel a tube fire sale coming on :- )

wll


----------



## pgandy

eagleyes said:


> The world thought that Christopher Columbus was crazy too when he claimed the earth was a sphere, not flat. Keep up the good work wll


That is a common misconception brought about by Washington Irving in the 19th century. The Greeks stated the world was round and that idea was accepted by most of the educated up to Columbus' time. He just proved it. Sorry, I had to put my 2¢ in on that one.


----------



## wll

*Look What Just Arrived At The Office ------ 25' of Blueberry Level 4 Dub Dub ;- )*

*






*

I cut off a 20 inch piece, looped it and pulled it back by hand .... not anywhere near as tough as I thought .... a little harder than my 5/16" but maybe not ;-)

They say it is the next size up from the Green level 3 and it is, but ... it is a pretty big jump, this stuff feels quick !

The blue color is not as bad as I thought (much better than the lime green on the Green Dub for sure), I can live with it. I thought I was going to have to RIT Dye it ;- (

I have a feeling this will send my 214gr to 314gr ammo into another level, especially when Internally Graphite Treated. (Dub tubes are very, very tacky on the inside and the graphite makes pulling a lot easier).

I can hardly wait ;- ) I'll send a pic of a F-16 Mod. sling with tubes attached later tonight or tomorrow ;- )

wll


----------



## wll

Finished off the F-16 mod today with Blueberry Dub tubes, here is a pic with a F-16 mod with a 5/16od tube set next to it:









These tubes are quite a bit bigger than the 5/16od and just over the size of 3/8" tubes that are on commercial slings, the OD on these is .385, have a wall thickness of .088 and an ID of .208. Here they are compared to my 5/16od tubes ...may not look like a lot of difference, but I can tell you it is.









The tubes have a lot of snap and have a very alive feeling. I internally treated them with graphite and it made the pull much smoother. I will take this sling to work and try to measure the pull compared to my 5/16od tubes tomorrow.

I'm hoping for a good bit over 200fps with the 214gr ammo and would love to get in the 190's if possible with the 314gr egg lead weights I use ... that would be awesome, but I don't know if that is in the cards.

My 5/16od and 3070 tubes get in the 173-175ish fps with 314gr ammo .... every little bit of speed with ammo this heavy is a big deal. All this is about 10-15fps more fps I hope to get than with the 5/16od/3070 tubes if possible, I will try to chronograph tomorrow.

My wish is about 215fps with 214gr ammo and 195fps with the 314gr ammo ... I may be just hoping as rubber can do only so much, and this is not exactly butterfly tubing .... making a shooting mistake and getting hit with this stuff is very much going to hurt I can assure you !

I will test 9/16"(184gr) and 5/8" (252gr) steel balls also. I will see if the 9/16" balls are on the light side, I don't know. Just by pulling back you can tell these tubes are in no way meant to use medium to light ammo. Ammo in the 1/2 steel range very well may slap you silly on a finger slap !

I can assure you I will be wearing my full face mask when i first test....I have no intentions of visiting the hospital with lacerations, a steel ball in my side or worse !

Danger is my middle name ;- ) ----- No, I'm not quoting Austin Powers ;- )

wll


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## Imperial

make yourself a bigger pouch and shoot golf balls as ammo with it.


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## wll

The difference in pulling is very, very little ..... the 5/16od pulls at about 18lbs at my draw, the blueberry pull in at about 20lbs ... for me this is very light, no problem at all, I can pull this all day long ;- ) I used a archery bow scale to measure !

Next up the testing for speed, that will come probably later today.

wll


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## Imperial

im seriously starting to wonder if this other tubing the dub dub and also the rolyan(?) brand are the ones that are used for the water balloon slingshots. i have one with green tubing and its time to be replaced. its green on the outside, but tan(?) on the inside.


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## wll

Well did some prelim testing today and the blueberry is faster but not earth shattering. I tested yesterday too and the readings for yesterday were better, it was a little warmer and the sun was out so I don't know if that had anything to do with anything.

My 214gr general speeds are pretty consistently at the 200-205fps mark, not what I wanted but better than the highs of 195fps with 5/16od tubes.

My 314gr ammo is in the 180fps area consistently, better than the 175fps highs I was getting with 5/16od.

So as it stands I'm getting an increase of 5-7fps ... not worth a lot IMHO, but I like the consistency of this tubing.

I will try again tomorrow and see what I get .... The one thing I can say is that it shoots very smooth and is very quite with this tubing

More to come tomorrow, with an assessment !

wll


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## nutthrower

wII,

been following your tests here and will have to stay with the 5/16 tubing for now, just not enough difference as you stated between that and the blueberry tubing - now get out there and find us something that will throw the 314gr lead to over 200fps, but yet still easy to pull, :naughty: just saying


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## wll

I have some Blue Thera band on order. after that... I think I'm through testing the single tubes as there is no place to go... I will settle for the info I get and that is it !

wII,

been following your tests here and will have to stay with the 5/16 tubing for now, just not enough difference as you stated between that and the blueberry tubing - now get out there and find us something that will throw the 314gr lead to over 200fps, but yet still easy to pull, :naughty: just saying

I sure would like 210fps with 214gr and ~185+ with 314gr ... we will see.!

I don't see 200fps with 314gr ammo at the poundage I can pull with single tubes ! 314gr ammo is very, very heavy stuff, when I shoot it out at my area, even at 175fps when it hits, it hits hard ! ...... but I'm always looking for the max at my comfort zone ... I don't want to leave anything on the table ! It is just my nature of pushing the envelope ... I have done that with my business and life in general and that's the way it is !

wll


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## wll

nutthrower said:


> wII,
> 
> been following your tests here and will have to stay with the 5/16 tubing for now, just not enough difference as you stated between that and the blueberry tubing - now get out there and find us something that will throw the 314gr lead to over 200fps, but yet still easy to pull, :naughty: just saying


Yes, If I were you, as it stands now, I would stay with the 5/16 or 3070 tubing .... both are very, very good, so is Green dub.

The Blueberry Dub. although giving a little bit more speed and good consistency with very heavy ammo (214 to 314gr), is not worth buying and investing in another stockpile of tubing.

Like i said, I will test again tomorrow or the following day. and if I feel it is not worth me having ... it goes for sale ..... tubing better put up or shut up as far as I'm concerned.

wll


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## Viper010

pgandy said:


> How do you fill your tubes with graphite? And do you fill to coat the inner walls or to have ample surplus of graphite lose in the tube?


You may want to visit a locksmiths shop. My dad used to have a little squeeze bottle of graphite in a drawer that was used for lubricant in locks. Came with a handy needle nose that inserted right into the lock. Or in this case, the little Chinese tubes. I hope they still sell it though... That little bottle was pretty ancient (1970s)


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## wll

Did some more testing with the Blueberry Dub .... well with 214gr ammo I'm getting that 200-205fps mark ...... with 314gr ammo I'm in the 180fps mark ... but I'm doing this all with consistency ... I can live with that ... but it is not what I was hoping for .... it is what it is.

If I had a choice of 5/16od or Blueberry Dub, as it stands right now I would take the 5/16" because it is more versatile I believe ... but to tell the truth I have not shot any 130-184gr ammo with the Blueberry Dub yet.

I will say it feels very smooth upon release, and I do like that.

*A Side Note !*

I got to tell you, testing this stuff can be a pain in the @$$ and your hopes and guesses are just that, hopes and guesses.... the chrono does not lie !

I would like to see the guy that can get 250FPS with 5/8' steel with tubes ! The guys that say they get that kind of speed with tubes ... I want to see it. (don't tell me it feels like it is going 250 or ?, if you don't have solid proof you got nothing.

I can't begin to tell you with the months of testing how many times I say to myself .... that was a good one, only to see the readings and say to myself " what the %@#& " I don't think tubes will get you that. You may get 215fps or so with 214gr ammo and a reasonable pull, and you may get around 200fps with 314gr ammo, but you are going to need a longer draw than me at 38-40", remember, I am JUST TALKING TUBES

These speeds are shot like I would use the sling in a hunting situation ...Push/Pull ....... When I did a static hold, velocity fell off by a good bit ! (10-15+fps) By static hold I mean about a 2-3 second hold.

I do enjoy doing testing most of the time, but today I got a bit annoyed ..... as you guys and gals can tell by my "A side Note !" rant ;- )

Later,

wll


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## nutthrower

wII,

ya hear what your saying, have read and heard the same tales of 250fps with no real proof, these I've heard came with using what they called a half butterfly draw, looked impressive, with good accurateness at that - have no reason not to take their word for it being I have not the equipment you obviously have to do the testing as others also have - they say big tubes are what they use but then don't want to give out that info, for business reasons I assume, can't blame them I guess - thanks for sharing your results


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## wll

nutthrower said:


> wII,
> ya hear what your saying, have read and heard the same tales of 250fps with no real proof, these I've heard came with using what they called a half butterfly draw, looked impressive, with good accurateness at that - have no reason not to take their word for it being I have not the equipment you obviously have to do the testing as others also have - they say big tubes are what they use but then don't want to give out that info, for business reasons I assume, can't blame them I guess - thanks for sharing your results


Yes, we are on the same page, I don't doubt anybody, I just want to see it.

The ammo I'm shooting is very heavy stuff, and for most purposes overkill unless you are hunting some big stuff. I'll do some shooting this weekend, and then start playing with attachment methods ..... The knot in the tube could be promising as it is relatively fast to do, is clean, and allows for tube movement after the shot.

We will see 

wll


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## wll

*OUT IN THE FIELD TODAY !*

Went out and shot today in a cold windy 58 degree Lancaster desert.

The Green Dub performed great as always, but was not there for that ;- )

The Blueberry Dub was the purpose of this outing . and ... It shot very, very well. being that I was out and not in the confines of my testing area, I let some rip... and the 314gr egg lead flew quick and with resounding authority (I have more push/pull when I'm in the field as I'm very careful in my back yard when doing testing, I don't want to smash the chronograph and a errant shot could cause some very serious damage to anything it hits) !

I could tell the difference in speed between this and my 5/16 OD last time I shot it. I fired shots and paced off the distance where I saw the ammo start to fall (did this about 5 times) ..... it was a good 35yds ! (It is always falling of course I'm talking from an instinctive point of view) and when it hits something, it smashed it at that distance ..WOW, what a crusher -------- getting this big ammo out in the 180+fps area, makes a difference in trajectory and smash for sure. The 214gr ammo was an absolute rocket ship BTW ;- )

A word of note ..... this Blueberry Tube, from the limited testing I have done seems really to like to be shot activity, It really comes to life .... I noticed it when I chronographed shooting statically vs actively at home ... again, my active shots at home are tamer than my active shots in the field as I mentioned.

On the other hand !

I shot Thera Band Blue (F-16 sling, same static length as Blueberry Dub) ... I need to test some more because after a few shots with just 214gr ammo, it was not getting out there, not as fast as my 5/16od with the same ammo for sure !

I must say I was kind of shocked at how slow it was. I had done some testing yesterday and the speeds were some 15-20 fps less, I thought the tubes needed more break in or maybe it was the temp or ? You can immediately see the difference in speed big time when compared to the Blueberry Dub when out shooting at any distance. Actually in today's testing there was no comparison when both shot the 214gr lead - the Blueberry Dub just blew the Thera Band Blue out of the water !

Both tubes were internally treated with graphite, so it was apples vs apples.

More fun maybe coming later or tomorrow if it does not rain ;- )

wll


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## wll

*OUT IN THE FIELD A SECOND TIME TODAY !*

Could not stand sitting around so I want out again to see if the speed I thought I was getting was just a fluke ..... short and long answer .... *NO*

I ranged the building I shoot at and it was 37yds from where I was standing... the 5/16od sent ammo out at a pretty good clip and ammo shot pretty flat, although the 314gr was a little bit on the slower side as you can imagine - the Blueberry Dub was visibly better, and that was with 214gr and 314gr ammo. The Blueberry Dub pushed the 314gr heavy stuff out at a very high rate of speed considering the ammo weight and a pulling force of only ~20 lbs at my draw ;- ) t was noticeably flatter shooting than the 5/16OD.

The Thera Band on the other hand is a lot slower ..... I will be getting rid of it on this forum later this week ... If it doesn't cut the mustard, it is gone.

By the same token, the Green Dub is so versatile and fast, I may pull the 3060 out of the refrigerator and get rid of that too.

Which would leave me with Green Dub, 5/16od, 3070 and Blueberry Dub. Four tube sizes is enough. Although 5/16OD and 3070 will throw 200-300 gr ammo well, Blueberry Dub handles that weight range better with more consistently I feel ..... for me it's about maximizing performance within noted perimeters.

On another note, the 5/16OD and 3070 are overlapping each other quite a bit.....if 3070 was readily available all the time my favorite 5/16od would be out.

If the wind is not as bad tomorrow, I will go at it again !

wll


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## nutthrower

so wII,

catch me up on this Blueberry Dub, is it a There-band product? or something else....and where can it be purchased - also have you tossed around the idea of trying There-band Black? anyway ya got my head spinning with all this, might need to get a drink  - in a nut shell - being I shoot the same lead weight - 214 and 314 eggs what in your mind is the best of the best so far, I've got the 5/16 tubes and as you stated do really well but would like to get a tube that can fling them big 314gr. lead with authority with no wasted energy - I like to stick with one size to do all - thanks

Nut


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## wll

nutthrower said:


> so wII,
> catch me up on this Blueberry Dub, is it a There-band product? or something else....and where can it be purchased - also have you tossed around the idea of trying There-band Black? anyway ya got my head spinning with all this, might need to get a drink  - in a nut shell - being I shoot the same lead weight - 214 and 314 eggs what in your mind is the best of the best so far, I've got the 5/16 tubes and as you stated do really well but would like to get a tube that can fling them big 314gr. lead with authority with no wasted energy - I like to stick with one size to do all - thanks
> 
> Nut


Blueberry Dub Dub is a Rolyan product, it is not Thera Band, it has a different feel, it is quite snappy.

The Blueberry is .385 diameter, so it is large and the wall is about .088 as I remember. This tube, as far as I can tell does well if you do your part, and that is follow through toward your target upon release, shoot this actively !!!

So far with the limited testing I have done, I'm liking it more and more......I was not to impressed in the beginning, as I was not shooting it aggressively enough -- as far as single tubes and heavy ammo 5/16od and 3070 are very good, this Blueberry brings it up a notch ..... Not earth shattering, but a notch that you will truely see and hear when you hit something. I really notice the flatter trajectory of the 314gr ammo at the 35 yard range :- )

I got the Rolyan tubing at Patterson Medical Supply, don't have the link on me :- )

I'll keep you posted as I plan on testing it tomorrow too.

wll

PS: Thera Band Black IMHO is way, way to heavy !
Thera Band Blue did not cut the mustard for me, you can tell the snappiness of Dub vs Thera Band IMHO


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## wll

*ANOTHER DAY OF TESTING & SHOOTING !*

Went out again today to shoot some more 3/4oz with the Blueberry Dub ... yep it sends them for sure. Shot again from the 35+ yard area and they are going pretty flat all the way out and when they hit, part of the old house falls off (I'm not lying).

I had a shot as I was putting this sling away at a starling some 40+ yards away, I only had a 5/8" marble and a few 1/2" steel balls so I let the marble fly ........ I have NEVER in my life seen a marble fly so fast, it was a rocket, but the tubes were very loud and they did not like it at all, I shot one 1/2" steel and that went out at super sonic speeds too, but the tubes were loud again. IMHO anything less than 184gr ammo is a NO NO ! That means .50 cal lead and 9/16 steel on up !

The BDD (Blueberry Dub Dub) is good stuff for the guys that have a use for it. If your hunting where you may need to throw heavy ammo at a good speed ... this is the ticket, but for 95% of all slingshot hunting, this is very probably over kill. Why do I have it and why do I have ammo that is in this weight range ? Just because I like the raw power of letting those missiles fly, There is no doubt that anything hit with ammo in the 184-300gr range going out 185+ to 210+fps is going to knock it for a loop.

My ammo for these tubes are:

1) 184gr 9/16" steel.

2) 214gr 1/2oz lead egg weights

3) 252gr 5/8" steel.

4) 314gr 3/4oz lead egg weights.

What is nice is even though it is very powerful tubing it is very smooth pulling back and only about 2lbs more pulling then my 5/16od ;- )

wll


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## nutthrower

wII,

I enjoy your enthusiasm, enjoy it but cant spell it........ anyway don't get me wrong the Blueberry Dub sounds like great tubing and I have nothing against the color blue but gee weez I would look more manly if it came in black or amber tones.....


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## wll

nutthrower said:


> wII,
> 
> I enjoy your enthusiasm, enjoy it but cant spell it........ anyway don't get me wrong the Blueberry Dub sounds like great tubing and I have nothing against the color blue but gee weez I would look more manly if it came in black or amber tones.....


Yes, the color is a real turn off for sure !

wll


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## wll

A side note with graphite internally treaded tubes !

The larger ID tubes may not internally touch when pulling back 500+ % so with that, graphite treatment may not be needed !

With Green dub, I say yes... On blueberry Dub ... The verdict is out, but I think not ?

Remember, you are dealing with a very variable set of parameters with elastic for slingshots, so every set of circumstances is different !

Everyone needs to decide what is best for them and there way of shooting, draw length and on and on. What a shooter with a 50 inch draw does has nothing to do what works for me with a 38 inch draw ! You must compare apples to apples :- )

wll


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