# Lead ammo and the environment



## benzidrine (Oct 14, 2013)

Hope no one takes this the wrong way, I am not looking to criticize anyone.

I was shooting lead ammo in the backyard the other day and lost two balls due to breaking the catchbox. I don't normally shoot lead but I might hunt pests one day with lead and it got me thinking about the effect of lead and the environment.

I was wondering if anyone knew if this was a real issue or not? I mean I figure a slingshot shooter is not firing out nearly the amount of lead that say a firearm would but I still wonder.

Does anyone know what sort of lead leaching could be expected from this?

Again just asking not trying to criticize.


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## ash (Apr 23, 2013)

You're going to get a lot of claims that various government/hippy/commie interests are using it as an excuse to disarm the population from people who are more prepared to believe in global conspiracy than the known toxic effects of lead in waterways. :rofl: :king: :koolaid:

Yes, it's a real concern - lead in waterways. That is why lead ammo bans in many places are limited to ammo used for waterfowl, fishing sinkers etc. I wonder how the global conspiracy plans to disarm anglers by making them use tungsten alloy beads? Hmmm... :angrymod:

How much lead is safe or acceptable? Debatable, but obviously the less the better. I think we slingshooters are contributing a negligible amount of lead to the environmental problem and we'll be fine to use lead for a long time as long as shooters are sensible and responsible - and we stay out of the authorities cross hairs.

/bearpoke :stickpoke:


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## Aussie Allan In Thailand (Jan 28, 2013)

Environmentally do not know nor care; given I care far more about HUMANE kills.

Now there would/is a really huge issue with hunters in general; and very valid one at that.

Myself I mold, and use, left over, and brand new lead Tyre weights; which I serious doubt will ever be in short supply anywhere in my lifetime.

Therefore my care factor is zero.

Cheers Allan


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## TxTickPkr (Aug 5, 2013)

Thanks for asking. The act of asking indicates a willingness to learn. Lead is an element of our natural environment. It is listed in metals on the periodic chart. Of course keeping them in your mouth is a bad idea but the EPA hype is about as real as Man Caused Global Warming. The Green Movement , at the top, not some of the actual individual stewards of environment, is a revitalization of the old hard line Communist party reformed at the fall of the Soviet Union by Mekail Gorbechev. The purpose of such movements and agencies is geopolitical control. In the case of lead, it is primarily to inhibit and demonize firearms. In the case of Man Caused Global Warming it is to control lifestyles and scare populations into Draconian osterity and tax measures to provide more for the Oligarchy. Metoroligist are unable to predict the weather with much more accuracy than a person with arthritis so how can they predict centuries of trends. The science of tree rings and ice cores tells us there have been fluctuations in Earth's temperature unrelated to "greenhouse gasses" like the ones we all exhale. All Gore uses more evil fossil fuel in one flight to a climate change conference in his private jet than it took to heat and cool your classrooms throughout your entire education. There are other opinions but I was an engineer with an electric power utility for 25 years and all this stuff was common knowledge in our Weekly Reader science papers in grade school in the 1950's.


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

Lead comes from the ground. I hardly see how returning small amounts of it can cause problems.


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## ZorroSlinger (Dec 12, 2012)

Quote from one of the Eco-environmental activists (in USA), Michael Fry ....

"Ammunition itself cannot be regulated [under the Act], but the components itself can be regulated," Fry said. "In other words, you cannot ban ammunition, but you can require nontoxic ammunition. ... We're not trying to ban handgun ammunition. This is strictly a toxicity issue, with lead poisoning wildlife."

The 2nd amendment haters now trying indirect firearms control through the governmental EPA and obvious what their scumbag tactics are. It's not about the environment. California just signed into law, attempting to ban lead content bullets for hunting purposes. Law passed on junk science & statistics manipulation. Lots of info on the net, if you search. I sure hope that the NRA is on top of this, maybe court challenges or something.


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## August West (Jan 21, 2012)

If you don't want to use lead then don't.

This has been one of the most effective **** propaganda campaigns ever. With the pollutants spewed out by

china, fukashima, garbage islands in the pacific gyre, CO2 levels at unbelievable levels in the atmosphere, Monsanto, I could keep going but I am tired, the idiot left has convinced people that sportsman harm the environment with their spent ammo and lead sinkers and people actually believe it.

Compared to almost any other pollutant on the planet do you realize how miniscule the amount of lead is that sportsmen of all types leave behind? Discarded condoms are more of a threat to wildlife but no one is talking about banning them.

I am currently majoring in Environmental Science and if anyone would like to discuss some REAL issues it is one of my favorite subjects. LOL


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## Performance Catapults (Feb 3, 2010)

I began shooting lead ammo a couple months ago, and haven't looked back.


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## freeman45 (Jun 2, 2012)

Performance Catapults said:


> I began shooting lead ammo a couple months ago, and haven't looked back.


I'm starting tomorrow, and will probably not look back.

Lead mold is todays project :naughty:


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## benzidrine (Oct 14, 2013)

Thank you for the replies. Some good points have been made.

I just wanted to be sure that it wasn't standard to somehow try and retrieve every errant lead ball.

I agree that humane kills are more important if hunting and also that returning negligible amounts of lead back to the environment is unlikely to be an issue. Just wanted to be sure.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

This topic gets discussed from time to time on the forum.

http://slingshotforum.com/topic/14546-steel-ammo-38-716-or-12-for-optimal-hunting/?p=263040

There is a substantial amount of research that indicates that spent lead shot is a serious health hazard to wildlife. You can use Google to find many, many references to such research. I also note that because of demonstrated health hazards, lead is no longer permitted as an additive in gasoline in the US and Canada. Also, lead oxide used to be a very common pigment in white paints, and was the cause of many infant deaths as a result of young children chewing painted surfaces on cribs; hence lead oxide is not permitted in most household paints.

Whether one believes the research or not, it remains a fact that in the US and Canada, it is illegal to hunt waterfowl with lead shot.

Cheers ...... Charles


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## Aussie Allan In Thailand (Jan 28, 2013)

There is very similar legislation in Australia also.

Actually I think it quite likely Australia among the first to outlaw such lead based stuff.

Although for myself, as said previously, my own care factor is zero.

Cheers Allan


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## August West (Jan 21, 2012)

Charles,

Whether you choose to believe it or not to most wildlife lead poses no risk whatsoever. Waterfowl are a bit different because they were picking up the very fine lead shot fired from shotguns when feeding in shallow lakes and ponds and retained it in their crop to slowly be ground with their food to enter their system. By the very nature of the way they feed they were susceptible to lead poisoning and for that one reason it was deemed to be harmful to all wildlife which study after study has never confirmed. Also lead SLINGSHOT ammo is much too large to stay in the waterfowls crop so poses virtually no threat to waterfowl, if they do inadvertently swallow a lead slingshot projectile it will quickly pass through their system causing zero harm or lead poisoning.

I really wish you would check real facts before giving antis more ammo.

Wish people would work as hard to lower mercury levels instead of persecuting hunters and lead. US FDA warnings on how much canned tuna should be eaten per week because of excessive mercury levels and the anti hunters still want to talk about ducks and lead, the media works great.

and I can Google just as many studies that refute it.

Lead in paint was being eaten by children who are at much more risk than adults to lead poisoning, leaded gasoline was putting lead into the atmosphere to be directly breathed into your system. Neither is remotely related to lead ammo or sinkers, apples and oranges, other than to say that lead can be harmful in the proper circumstances, which is a very well known fact.

Last edit: I am done with this conversation as Charles has said the information is widely available, do your own research and believe what ever you wish. I sincerely believe no matter how much we debate it no ones mind will be changed and is honestly a waste of time. Lead ammo like, forked branches and rubber bands, is impossible to ban and those of us that believe in it's use will continue and the people that don't won't.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

August West said:


> Charles,
> 
> Whether you choose to believe it or not to most wildlife lead poses no risk whatsoever. Waterfowl are a bit different because they were picking up the lead shot from feeding in shallow lakes and ponds and retaining it in their crop to slowly be ground with their food to enter their system. By the very nature of the way they feed they were susceptible to lead poisoning and for that one reason it was deemed to be harmful to all wildlife which study after study has never confirmed.
> 
> ...


Fine, you can believe whatever you want. As for me checking my "facts" you may rest assured that I do so.

I think it is unreasonable to suggest that restrictions and bans on lead products are somehow primarily the efforts of some anti-gun conspiracy or some left wing political plot. That is why I noted the ban on lead additives to gasoline and lead pigments in paints. Lead toxicity is not debatable; the deleterious effects of lead are just too well documented and accepted by health professionals world wide.

Yes, as you recognize, lead poisoning does seriously affect various waterfowl. And since lead does bio-accumulate, it affects raptors and other predators that prey on ducks. Ducks that are weakened by exposure to lead will be more likely to be preyed upon, and thus will pass their lead load on to hawks, eagles, wolves, and other predators.

Pointing out that there are serious pollution problems with other materials, such as mercury, is irrelevant ... that has no bearing on whether or not lead constitutes a health hazard. I fully agree that more should be done to curtail toxic contamination of all sorts, including that from herbicides and pesticides. But these matters are not the point of issue when discussing lead.

I agree that lead and its compounds occur naturally in our environment. But that is no argument that it is not toxic. Arsenic and its compounds occur naturally in the environment, and the same is true of mercury and many other materials. They are still highly toxic.

I agree that the small amount of lead deposited in the environment by slingshot shooters is unlikely to cause any significant harm. BUT, as I said before, regardless of your personal beliefs, it remains a fact that in Canada and the US, it is illegal to hunt waterfowl with lead shot. That is not a matter of personal opinion. It is a fact of law of which we should all be aware. If we wish to continue to be able to enjoy the sport of shooting slingshots, then it is important that we NOT blatantly flout the law.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

Charles said:


> I agree that the small amount of lead deposited in the environment by slingshot shooters is unlikely to cause any significant harm. BUT, as I said before, regardless of your personal beliefs, it remains a fact that in Canada and the US, it is illegal to hunt waterfowl with lead shot. That is not a matter of personal opinion. It is a fact of law of which we should all be aware. If we wish to continue to be able to enjoy the sport of shooting slingshots, then it is important that we NOT blatantly flout the law.
> 
> Cheers ..... Charles


Not to get too philosophical Charles, but you would be presupposing the law in and of itself is relevant? Clearly not everyone agrees with this presupposition.


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## ash (Apr 23, 2013)

Charles brings all the sense to the yard.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Clever Moniker said:


> Charles said:
> 
> 
> > I agree that the small amount of lead deposited in the environment by slingshot shooters is unlikely to cause any significant harm. BUT, as I said before, regardless of your personal beliefs, it remains a fact that in Canada and the US, it is illegal to hunt waterfowl with lead shot. That is not a matter of personal opinion. It is a fact of law of which we should all be aware. If we wish to continue to be able to enjoy the sport of shooting slingshots, then it is important that we NOT blatantly flout the law.
> ...


Not philosophical at all. If we use slingshots to blatantly flout the law, we bring the slingshot community into disrepute in the eyes of many. That will make it more likely that bans against slingshots will be instituted, and each of us who flouts the law opens ourselves to prosecution.

Cheers .... Charles


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

benzidrine said:


> Hope no one takes this the wrong way, I am not looking to criticize anyone.
> 
> I was shooting lead ammo in the backyard the other day and lost two balls due to breaking the catchbox. I don't normally shoot lead but I might hunt pests one day with lead and it got me thinking about the effect of lead and the environment.
> 
> ...


This is important. I think about it like this. Lead was in the earth. We took it out. We divided it up into much smaller pieces. We made things from it. We dropped it back into the earth but much more wide spread than when we found it. Yeah, so maybe, no big deal?


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## ash (Apr 23, 2013)

OldSpookASA said:


> This is important. I think about it like this. Lead was in the earth. We took it out. We divided it up into much smaller pieces. We made things from it. We dropped it back into the earth but much more wide spread than when we found it. Yeah, so maybe, no big deal?


So, no big deal if the Air Force leaves some of its uranium in your back yard. After all, that came from the earth too, right.


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

Charles said:


> Clever Moniker said:
> 
> 
> > Charles said:
> ...


What I'm suggesting is that it seems as though the law is being presupposed as an/the authority. It's fallacious because there is no reason to presuppose this, it also presupposes it's relevancy.

This is the common use:

Do not do (insert action) thing.

Why?

It's the law.

So?

There could be consequences.

So?

You see what I'm saying? Just because it's the law, is irrelevant. It is common nomenclature, but the "law" has no real intrinsic value.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Clever Moniker said:


> Charles said:
> 
> 
> > Clever Moniker said:
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What the law says IS often relevant ... particularly if one cares about the consequences. By your (faulty) analysis, what the law says is irrelevant to just about everything ... and you know that is just not the case.. When it comes to adjusting our behavior in social contexts, it is foolish to ignore the law.

IF we want to avoid further sanctions against the use of slingshots, THEN we should be wary of openly flouting the law. As a public forum which seeks to promote slingshot use, this forum should be seeking to relax existing restrictions when possible, painting slingshots in a favorable light for the public, NOT advocating activities which are likely to result in more restrictions. As another example, this forum should NOT be seen to advocate using slingshots to take game out of season. And there are many other examples. What the law says on these issues is highly relevant.

Cheers ...... Charles


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## TxTickPkr (Aug 5, 2013)

This forum is a multinational forum and that is what makes it so interesting. That and the fine art of it's participants. The point of relevance of the law and the relevance of regulations has come up. Ash has posted very early in this string that these prohibitory regulations exist as directives for other sports and that we are excluded so long as we " stay out of the cross hairs of government". This brings to my mind a poem penned in Nazi Germany that goes sort of "when they came for *** no one cared and when they came for me there was no one left" Can one really stay out of the crosshairs? In the governmental system where I live, government makes law and agencies make regulations. Agencies are composed of appointes unanswerable to the will of the governed and often with long history in these positions with those elected to oversee their authority becoming unable to reign them in. This is the case with the EPA in the USA. Within this year our congress overrode at least one dictate of the EPA by a resounding majority and even had it ratified by our "president". Our congress has trouble agreeing on lunch. The tendency for zealots on the white horse of junk science to be taken as experts is all too often supported by media looking for the big story and thus, many of these people end up appointed to positions due to politicians who want to appear to "care" about issues with large constituency and thus votes. Of course no one advocates the usurpation of law but regulatory agencies without the authority of the law, as it is defined in my country, often make regulations that will not stand the muster of the law. Watch closely my friends that you abide the law. Watch closely the legislators apointes and I predict a strong reaction in this countries next elections. All of this is probably irrelevant to many of you but I hope interesting. I think hundreds of years of ballistic science has well proven that lead carried energy to the point of impact better but steel has an advantage of flatter trajectory in the velocities experienced in SS shooting. Keep the lead out of your children's reach and wash your hands after handling it before eating.


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## KITROBASKIN (May 20, 2013)

TxTickPkr said:


> This forum is a multinational forum and that is what makes it so interesting. That and the fine art of it's participants....Keep the lead out of your children's reach and wash your hands after handling it before eating.


Can we also add that newcomers to lead casting take precautions? That is room for serious mess up if not performed properly.

Thanks for your perspective Charles, and I think it bears mentioning that you use lead AND you believe we need to represent the slingshot community in a way that keeps our sport enjoyable, without further restrictions.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

KITROBASKIN said:


> TxTickPkr said:
> 
> 
> > This forum is a multinational forum and that is what makes it so interesting. That and the fine art of it's participants....Keep the lead out of your children's reach and wash your hands after handling it before eating.
> ...


Yep ... I fully agree. I do try to caution folks who are new to casting their own ammo to take serious precautions ... protective clothing and eye wear, avoid water, work outdoors in the open air, wash your hands afterward, etc. These cautions bear repeating over and over.

And you are absolutely right that I do use lead ammo a LOT. I would not use it for hunting waterfowl, but for other beasties I think it is fine. I use lead for a lot of my target practice.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## VillageSniper (Jan 22, 2013)

A lead ball sitting on the ground isn't going to hurt anyone. Even a lead ball sitting at the bottom of the lake isn't that bad, but go ahead and obey the law of your land. The smelting industries do far worse. Most of the lead that we should try to avoid as individual humans is in our drinking water and it is there due to the corrosion of lead components/service lines in the water distribution systems.

Vs


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## JetBlack (Mar 9, 2012)

Got news for ya Im more worried about the Fukushima reactor than lead shot in the woods.Levels are 18 times higher than originally reported. Around water maybe different but lead is natural and will be here long after us.


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## TxTickPkr (Aug 5, 2013)

Wish I could get copy & paste to work but Village Sniper and JetBlack both make great points. Fukushima was evidently designed with a very thin redundancy. Our Cu pipes leach lead from the lead joints and has been for a long time. Society makes mistakes. The real measure is recognizing and correcting them. It probably goes without saying that precautions must be taken when working some of the exotic woods so many use to make such beautiful working art . The point is we all need to use our heads and be good stewards of our sports as we can and as safe as we can.


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

Charles said:


> Clever Moniker said:
> 
> 
> > Charles said:
> ...


Respectfully, you're incorrect. It's not my analysis of the law... it's the actual nature of law. Law carries no intrinsic value so it's moot to point to it, as a point in debate. The law *points *to an ethic which does carry value. i.e. Do not speed (law), points to ethic - It may hurt someone. Do not use lead on waterfowl (law), points to ethic - we may be needlessly killing animals.

My point in all of this, is I see so often on this forum... people saying, you can't do that or this because it's "law". They end it there as though they have made the proverbial "hay-maker". When in reality, no ground has been made in debate.

This is how it should go:

Do not do (insert action) thing.

Why?

It's the law.

So?

There could be consequences.

The law points to an objective moral ethic. (focus of the debate is here)

Now this debate began about what really matters, the ethic. We started off talking about the use of lead on waterfowl and it's possible effects and that's where the debate should stay. There is nothing wrong with saying what the law say's concerning this matter, but it changes nothing.

Concerning the law, all you can really say is that there exists a law, which you may choose to follow, and may have possible consequences if you so choose to not follow, and may possibly be relevant depending on your current geographic location.


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## Performance Catapults (Feb 3, 2010)

Hey, ya know it's illegal to roll through a Stop sign?


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

And to spit on the sidewalk. Cross the border without papers, drive over the speed limit, smoke almost anywhere in Calif. and on and on.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Clever Moniker said:


> Charles said:
> 
> 
> > Clever Moniker said:
> ...


Failure to generally take account the consequences of your actions (e.g., breaking the law) is a sign of sociopathology. Certainly not all laws are enacted on the basis of some underlying "ethic". In fact many laws (probably most) are enacted in order to bring a level of social harmony. For example, "drive on the right side of the road" in itself points to no underlying ethic. Certainly without various sorts of social conventions most of us would suffer. But the specific conventions we adopt are often somewhat arbitrary and in and of themselves embody no underlying ethic.

The original question that was asked was indeed about the environmental effects. Opinions on both sides of that question were advanced. However, when anyone advocates on this forum openly flouting the law, then it is highly appropriate to point out that such advocacy is detrimental to out sport, and may well lead to unpleasant consequences for this group.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## SuperMonkeySlinger (Jan 28, 2013)

I never thought this forum would come to such a conversation. 
I dont think its right.

SMS


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

ash said:


> OldSpookASA said:
> 
> 
> > This is important. I think about it like this. Lead was in the earth. We took it out. We divided it up into much smaller pieces. We made things from it. We dropped it back into the earth but much more wide spread than when we found it. Yeah, so maybe, no big deal?
> ...


he can use it to cast his own high density penetrators (ammo).


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## TxTickPkr (Aug 5, 2013)

Heaven forbid !! A bit of Uranium 235 would certainly add density to a projectile but I will line up behind Charles's predicted position on this one which is also my own position. " Do not use uranium enriched projectiles". This would definitely be bad for the environment and immediately put our sport in the cross hairs of regulation , prohibition and confiscation. Very bad form. Lets all be good stewards of our environments and sports and to all my fellow slingers around the Big Blue Marble, Cheers, Guday, No worries Mate, Manyada Compadre, and See Ya Later BuhBuh.And as Tiny Tim would say, "God less Us Every One".


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

I do not think we are in serious disagreement here. I think we all agree that responsible use of lead ammo is appropriate. And we agree there are some legitimate concerns about the use of lead ammo for hunting waterfowl. None of us wants to see the sport of slingshot shooting brought into disrepute, nor to see further restrictions on slingshots. And certainly we all agree that there are other potential environmental concerns that do not directly bear on slingshots.

Good discussion!

Cheers ...... Charles


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## Cervantes (Jun 10, 2011)

I've purchased lead shot that was coated with some environmentally neutral material to mitigate "fallout" of letting large amounts of lead sit in the open..

NOW, since it did come from the earth... I don;t see how returning it to the earth is a problem... AND lead is very dense so it allows for a quick, clean kill..

If the squirrels I have taken could speak, I bet they would thank me for punching their reset buttons with such efficient ammo.


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## Cervantes (Jun 10, 2011)

ash said:


> OldSpookASA said:
> 
> 
> > This is important. I think about it like this. Lead was in the earth. We took it out. We divided it up into much smaller pieces. We made things from it. We dropped it back into the earth but much more wide spread than when we found it. Yeah, so maybe, no big deal?
> ...


Where can I get depleted uranium? And would I need silver theraband tubes, doubled up to launch it??


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

Charles said:


> I do not think we are in serious disagreement here. I think we all agree that responsible use of lead ammo is appropriate. And we agree there are some legitimate concerns about the use of lead ammo for hunting waterfowl. None of us wants to see the sport of slingshot shooting brought into disrepute, nor to see further restrictions on slingshots. And certainly we all agree that there are other potential environmental concerns that do not directly bear on slingshots.
> 
> Good discussion!
> 
> Cheers ...... Charles


Agree'd I didn't find this was getting too heated or anything. I think Charles and I are similar (I think) in that I don't get too emotionally attached to the argument. Just a discussion over lead, the environment, and the nature of law.



Charles said:


> Clever Moniker said:
> 
> 
> > Charles said:
> ...


Ah, but then "social harmony" is the underlying ethic. Social harmony is viewed a right or something that ought to be. You see, the law is enacted for a reason. By itself, the law is useless, it carries with it no value or weight then something simply written on paper. The reason for it's enactment is the topic. So, I'm against simply saying something is a "law", as an argument in debate since it doesn't advance one's position. I would defiantly say that consequences matter, at least in a subjective sense. So while I agree that the consequences might not be good for the sport, or the people involved, or the forum, it doesn't advance the argument... and therefore moot to the original debate.

Cheers,

Clever Moniker


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

TxTickPkr said:


> Heaven forbid !! A bit of Uranium 235 would certainly add density to a projectile but I will line up behind Charles's predicted position on this one which is also my own position. " Do not use uranium enriched projectiles". This would definitely be bad for the environment and immediately put our sport in the cross hairs of regulation , prohibition and confiscation. Very bad form. Lets all be good stewards of our environments and sports and to all my fellow slingers around the Big Blue Marble, Cheers, Guday, No worries Mate, Manyada Compadre, and See Ya Later BuhBuh.And as Tiny Tim would say, "God less Us Every One".


its already in use in some forms of military ammo. some granite tables and counter tops have a slight trace of uranium in them, such as your counter top in your kitchen that you may of have bought in home depot.


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## All Buns Glazing (Apr 22, 2012)

He asked if anyone knew if lead leeching from fallen ammo could be a problem when he was target shooting in his yard.

There was perhaps 4 posts in this 3 page thread that were actually addressing the question. This question has nothing to do with the American Constitution or anti-gun lobbyists or the "stupid, commie lefties".

Personally, I only take 10 rounds out with me when I'm target shooting with lead, and I don't leave until I've got 10 back in my ammo pouch because I don't want my dog eating them. I had a dog who found a lead sinker and thought it was the most delicious and chewy treat he'd ever chewed up (stomach pumped later).

As lead is a long-term thing (lead doesn't evaporate, AFAIK ) and considering you may not be living at your house for a couple of hundred years for the lead to be covered up with sufficient dirt to be "returned to the earth", think of the dogs of the future  Call me a nutty Greens voter, but I think it's probably a good idea to keep as much lead as possible off the topsoil of where we live. Ya know, where people plant vegetables and stuff.


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## benzidrine (Oct 14, 2013)

All Buns Glazing said:


> He asked if anyone knew if lead leeching from fallen ammo could be a problem when he was target shooting in his yard.
> 
> There was perhaps 4 posts in this 3 page thread that were actually addressing the question. This question has nothing to do with the American Constitution or anti-gun lobbyists or the "stupid, commie lefties".
> 
> ...


The situation you describe seems particular apt since we live in the same state of the same country and therefore you could potentially one day buy my house and have that exact same dog there. .

Your dog will be happy to know that until I am a better shot and have built a better catch box, I have switched to clay balls.


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## ash (Apr 23, 2013)

VillageSniper said:


> A lead ball sitting on the ground isn't going to hurt anyone.





Cervantes said:


> NOW, since it did come from the earth... I don;t see how returning it to the earth is a problem...


A lead ball on the ground or wherever is indeed, probably not going to hurt anyone (except maybe your pets, toddlers and wildlife). But the thing is, it's not just one lead ball and it's not just going to idly sit there forever. In most of our countries, it's all of our lead balls, however many hundred we personally shoot and all the other slingshooters (9000 members here, just the tip of the leadberg), all the duck shooters, and clay bird shooters and pistol shooters and SLR shooters and anglers and roofers and whatever other outdoor lead consumer are out there, every weekend, every fishing/hunting season, every year going back 150-200 years (anyone want to do a quick tally?). It has already been proven that the existing volumes of lead deposited into waterways by these means is sufficient to have travelled far enough into the food chain to drastically harm the survival of many precious species. How can any of you not see how that affects you and your families? Is your flatter shot trajectory really more important than your drinking water? Or the water your children swim in? Or the food your grandchildren will eat?

You know those round, smooth rocks and pebbles in the rivers? You know how they got round and smooth? A lifetime of being washed and tumbled by the water flowing over them. The debris from that makes up the flood plains we grow our crops and animals on and the beaches we visit in summer and the river/sea beds we harvest fish from. A lead ball (or 150 years worth of them) doesn't just sit the harmlessly until the end of time. It gets washed and tumbled and oxidised and dissolved into the water that nourishes all those things. It's all very well to say it just went back to the earth, but it doesn't Those rivers, lakes, streams and oceans were washed clean of lead ores and other heavy metals thousands/millions of years before we ever started harvesting from them. The lead was taken from other places in a stable ore form where we're not in the habit of growing food (because it won't grow there) or collecting water. If you want analogies, think of it as crapping in our own nest. Flushing the toilet directly into the fridge.

Oh, but it's ok... that was all food that came from the fridge, so it can go back there, right? Right? :what:

I'm thoroughly disheartened that so many people openly value their own convenience over the future generations and their right to survive unpolluted. That people would rather buy into absurd red herring comparisons than take responsibility for the materials in their own hands... just wrong and bizarre. Use lead all you want, but at least have the decency to clean up after yourself. Most bizarre is when some people preach on about a precious humane kill, but clearly not give a shit about the welfare of the living... irony supreme.

PS, my earlier suggestion to "stay out of the crosshairs of government" wasn't analogous to "don't get caught". I was "don't be stupid". If we start flinging lead where other users have already been banned from doing so, we'll be next.


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## Performance Catapults (Feb 3, 2010)

The bottom line is, if your wildlife governing body prohibits the use of lead, then don't use it. If you will go to jail, or be fined if caught using lead, then don't use it. As far as being in the crosshairs of the government, here in the states as a whole, I don't feel we are even on the map yet. So the best thing to do, is to put slingshots/catapults in a positive light. Do this by promotion, instruction and demonstration. Each one of us are salesman of the sport, to those who see us, and what we do in the sport. Don't do something stupid, then complain about what the government may do. If you're one of the ones that hopes the sport doesn't go more mainstream, well, I have news for ya. The more it stays underground, the more likely it will be viewed as a weapon of violence, rather than a tool for survival or a hunting artifice.


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## benzidrine (Oct 14, 2013)

ash said:


> VillageSniper said:
> 
> 
> > A lead ball sitting on the ground isn't going to hurt anyone.
> ...


Well since the majority of plastic contains lead we really have to include all plastic users in the lead contributor category also all car drivers due to the lead acid batteries. Both of which are major contributors to lead in the environment. It is not an excuse to be environmentally unsound just pointing out that outdoor activities alone should not be blamed. I don't see anyone digging up their lead pvc pipes to replace them with lead free pipes, do you? Maybe it is too inconvenient .

I think it has to be pointed out here that steel ammo is not environmentally sound either. Steel will decompose to toxic elements as well, chromium is pretty bad for the environment also nickel and manganese.

Also I don't think slingshotters can be compared to shooters when being realistic. Some of the lead in firearms is made atmospheric by the explosion in the firearm causing lead dust that can be inhaled. This is different to slingshots when we only have a lead ball to break down over 21,000 years. Also lead from shotguns is very small so is easily eaten by animals.

After some research and this thread, The conclusion I have reached is don't use small lead balls near waterfowl (I never use small lead anyway, doubt any of us do) and do your best not to litter unnecessarily. I think of it like leaving a plastic bottle cap in the environment you should try and avoid it but would I spend all day trying to find a missing bottle cap? No I would not.


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## JetBlack (Mar 9, 2012)

How about all the countless buckshot and 22lr lead that's never recovered? At least you stand a chance of finding slingshot ammo, lead from a gun is much harder to find.


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

Here's a novel thought. If you believe lead is a problem, don't use it. I guarantee I will not try to force you to use it.Please extend me the same courtesy and don't try to force me to conform to your ideas.


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

Henry in Panama said:


> Here's a novel thought. If you believe lead is a problem, don't use it. I guarantee I will not try to force you to use it.Please extend me the same courtesy and don't try to force me to conform to your ideas.


lead is everywhere. if he were to stop using it, for one, he'd have to stop using automobiles, lead is used with your auto battery. e lead from a car battery is more abundant that a lead ball left in the forest.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2013)

Lead in the environment can be an issue:

http://bit.ly/19XIEoE


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2013)

Lead is an issue, and it should be monitored but it is not Uranium, it is not Plutonium. It is lead. The reason that lead is important is because it was used in paint in urban centers for a long time and children in those centers chose to eat it as it pealed from the walls. The reason that sportsmen decided to stop using it in SOME North American flyways is because certain ducks sometimes eat is as if it were gravel (which they use in their crops to grind grain). Clearly the end result is something that we do not want. Nobody wants ducks to die, or children to eat lead paint.

Going beyond that. Any **** fool can clean up his shot trap. He can recover the lead and recast it as he sees fit. It is not the end of the world if someone decides to shoot lead. It is not even the end of the world if he decides to HUNT with lead. Since I was a child, many years ago, I have eaten many a squirrel, deer, rabbit, and racoon, killed with lead and even worse, probably have eaten some of that shot. The thing is that I don't have a crop. I don't collect gravel and use it to digest my grain, as birds do. So I pass that pellet through myself. I don't absorb that lead, the bird does, I don't.

I'm still here. It is not the end of the world. Next month, I will take my PCP Air Rifle built by BSA and I will go kill some squirrels with LEAD pellets, and I will EAT them... and they will be mighty tasty...

Yes there is an issue with lead in the environment, there certainly is, but is is not an issue that we need to hate each other about.


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## kyogen (Oct 22, 2012)

good discussion going on here (mostly).

Lately I've been thinking about the effects of the lead ammo that i lose, so i'm glad this thread got started.

I think i'll still use lead occasionally, but i'll definitely minimise its use and experiment with alternatives.


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## All Buns Glazing (Apr 22, 2012)

Imperial said:


> Henry in Panama said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a novel thought. If you believe lead is a problem, don't use it. I guarantee I will not try to force you to use it.Please extend me the same courtesy and don't try to force me to conform to your ideas.
> ...


I think the point Ash was trying to make is that we don't dump lead batteries into the bush, rivers and backyards.

Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything here - this is just a conversation about lead's potential effects on the environment.


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## JetBlack (Mar 9, 2012)

Off topic but something that was said about it being underground(slingshots) is way better imho because the nail that sticks out gets hammered.I could see why people that make slingshots want them to be main stream but the next thing you know there will be regulations on band sets , ammo etc.i am not a salesman but enthusiast and only mention slingshots once or twice, if someone doesn't get into them so what? better than trying to push it and get made fun of for playing with toys. one kid buys a daisy shoots his sisters eye out and they will be outlawed.underground is better.sorry for those who will get mad and quote me etc. this is a forum you know....


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2013)

benzidrine said:


> All Buns Glazing said:
> 
> 
> > He asked if anyone knew if lead leeching from fallen ammo could be a problem when he was target shooting in his yard.
> ...


I think that lead leaching can be an issue. One must keep careful track of where and how much lead is introduced into a target trap, for example, because so many shots are delivered into such a small space. You probably should never feed your dog on top of the ground beneath your target trap.

NRA actually does that with rifle ranges. They count bullets to ensure they know how much lead is deposited in the backstops of the sanctioned rifle ranges. I think that is probably a good idea but I have never seen any critter actually grazing on the lead in the backstops.

Does the lead in the backstops actually get picked up by the grass and other veg that the deer and other game eat? Do we have documentation on that?


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2013)

All Buns Glazing said:


> Imperial said:
> 
> 
> > Henry in Panama said:
> ...


There is a good argument. Can ANYONE cite any documentation about leads impact upon the environment?

I should like to see that.


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## All Buns Glazing (Apr 22, 2012)

http://www.lead.org.au/fs/shootingranges.pdf"]http://www.lead.org.au/fs/shootingranges.pdf


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

All Buns Glazing said:


> I think the point Ash was trying to make is that we don't dump lead batteries into the bush, rivers and backyards.


you should see the area that i live at. the Alamo river and the New river are grossly polluted. its not unusual that i see old t.v.s, car batteries, sofas, and refrigerators along the back roads.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2013)

All Buns Glazing said:


> http://www.lead.org.au/fs/shootingranges.pdf"]http://www.lead.org.au/fs/shootingranges.pdf


There is absolutely nothing here that supports the argument that you or I or anyone or anything else will be contaminated by that lead. There is nothing in that link but fear mongering. All I am saying is show me the science. There is no science in that PDF.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2013)

Imperial said:


> All Buns Glazing said:
> 
> 
> > I think the point Ash was trying to make is that we don't dump lead batteries into the bush, rivers and backyards.
> ...


I can agree with the idea that you may live in a place where lead is an issue. Sure car batteries and other things (have no idea how sofas and fridges are related to lead) but yeah, if you have lead acid batteries in your water that is a problem. You should fix that problem by taking them out of the water, after ten minutes your water will again be fine. So will everyone else's down stream. That is the bottom line isn't it? Clean it up. Educate the people. Be done with it. My bad. I am sure you understand that we are all our brother's keepers.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

https://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2011/04/08-0

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hl-vs/iyh-vsv/environ/lead-plomb-eng.php

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hl-vs/iyh-vsv/environ/lead-plomb-eng.php

Here is some general information, as well as links to some of the scientific literature. I note that much of the literature was sponsored by fish and game departments, who are not inclined to ban hunting and fishing.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2013)

Charles said:


> https://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2011/04/08-0
> 
> http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hl-vs/iyh-vsv/environ/lead-plomb-eng.php
> 
> ...


The difference between opinion and science is a good thing., That you have actually demonstrated a 70% decrease in lead levels in blood concentrations in Canadians is even better.

How does that translate to better health? I am not sure the article documents that, Charles.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Sorry, I am not in a position to provide a detailed list of research relating to the health effects of high blood and tissue levels of lead ... the deleterious effects of lead on health of most all species is very well researched and accepted by wildlife and health professionals world wide. I am sure you could very easily find literature on the subject.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2013)

Charles said:


> Sorry, I am not in a position to provide a detailed list of research relating to the health effects of high blood and tissue levels of lead ... the deleterious effects of lead on health of most all species is very well researched and accepted by wildlife and health professionals world wide. I am sure you could very easily find literature on the subject.
> 
> Cheers ..... Charles


Charles, I can find all sorts of documents about global warming, as well. I don't have to accept them and for that matter, neither you nor I am qualified to comment on either of them... Opinions are one thing... we all have one.

But I will take this opportunity to digress...

There is no doubt in my mind that lead in the environment is not a good thing. I also don't think that lead travels much further through the environment than gold does, once it is deposited. It STAYS where we left it, or it runs down hill to the first place it can hang up on a pebble, or a low spot. It stops there.

Lead is not good, but it is not the end of the world. Lead does not "stick" in systems, or persons, or even critters like fish very well. Sure it can be documented to enter into systems, but what damage has it done?

We spend our time worrying about what might happen at the detriment of that which IS happening.

When I was a boy, in Oklahoma, my grandfather (long since gone) told me that almost all the Coyotes were gone because men chose to kill them with cyanide traps. TODAY there are coyotes in Virginia, 1500 miles away from Oklahoma. Can that be explained?

Sure it can, men are arrogant to assume they actually understand this system. Some of them are so arrogant as to assume they can predict it...

I used to be that stupid..


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

The stuff that amazes me is I'm an electrical superintendent for a large contractor . We have to have abatement contractors remove any asbestos before we can work on a lot of projects by law. But when I attend abatement training classes you know where they say you breath in more asbestos than anyplace else? Driving on the road because there's still asbestos used in a lot of brake linings today look it up. So a lot of it makes no sense.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2013)

Cjw said:


> The stuff that amazes me is I'm an electrical superintendent for a large contractor . We have to have abatement contractors remove any asbestos before we can work on a lot of projects by law. But when I attend abatement training classes you know where they say you breath in more asbestos than anyplace else? Driving on the road because there's still asbestos used in a lot of brake linings today look it up. So a lot of it makes no sense.


That is exactly true. Thirty five years ago when I lived in Maryland the state decided to resurface every county road because of that....

The scary thing is, 'how many people got mesothelioma because they resurfaced the roads, and how many other's didn't?' The question is, "WAS IT WORTH IT?"

The hubris of humanity... We think we understand so much..


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## NoobShooter (Sep 15, 2012)

I used to think it was fun to chew on the small lead sinkers when I was little... Maybe that's whats wrong with me.. :help:


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2013)

NoobShooter said:


> I used to think it was fun to chew on the small lead sinkers when I was little... Maybe that's whats wrong with me.. :help:


You and me brother... I used to keep my shot for my slinger in my mouth. I'm still here.

... but no doubt there are people who would make the argument that fact proves the point ... heh.

Point is, there is absolutely no doubt that lead is a poison. There is absolutely no doubt that we should minimize it in the environment. Never the less, lead has advantages. First it shoots flatter than any other cheap sub. Second it hits harder because it carries farther than any other sub. Third it is more compact than any other alternative. So shoot lead, but remember to do what you can to remove it from the environment.

Now, if you feel a need to kiss the PC goddess .... kiss her but please try not to impose your goddess upon this poor old man... All I want to do is kill some squirrels, maybe a rabbit... I will pick up any shot I can find...


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Perfect example was doing a project at Chino Prison when the backhoe broke a old waterline that had asbestos on the outside we had to call an abatement contractor to remove the broken pipe. We got in to the trench and cut the pipe and this guy dressed up like an astronaut with a trash bag walks over to the trench and we throw the piece of pipe in. You see it's not hazardous until it leaves the trench. WHAT ? Just another stupid thing to cost us money.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2013)

JetBlack said:


> Off topic but something that was said about it being underground(slingshots) is way better imho because the nail that sticks out gets hammered.I could see why people that make slingshots want them to be main stream but the next thing you know there will be regulations on band sets , ammo etc.i am not a salesman but enthusiast and only mention slingshots once or twice, if someone doesn't get into them so what? better than trying to push it and get made fun of for playing with toys. one kid buys a daisy shoots his sisters eye out and they will be outlawed.underground is better.sorry for those who will get mad and quote me etc. this is a forum you know....


This troubles me. Not because I disagree, more because I differ in philosophy. The idea that we must hide from the government is something I find difficult.

For that matter, how in the dickens is it hard for men playing with rubber powered weapons? Why would men playing with latex powered sticks have to fear their governments?

Ok, well suppose we do, WHY SHOULD WE? I mean for Gods sake they are sticks and rubberbands... Really?


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## benzidrine (Oct 14, 2013)

OldSpookASA said:


> benzidrine said:
> 
> 
> > All Buns Glazing said:
> ...


Plants do not readily pick up lead from soil. My understanding is that even very high concentrations of lead in the soil do not lead to plants becoming lead bearing. There are a lot of things plants ignore in the soil because it is of no use to them.

However it is possible that root vegetables would in essence deliver lead to a animal due to animals not washing the soil off. However it is rare for an animal to dig up root vegetables so I don't think it is an issue.

I think a problem could come from animals digging in lead concentrated soil and then inhaling the dust generated. I'm thinking rabbits and other diggers here. I don't think it is well understood if this is a real issue though, my feeling is that it is not but there isn't enough info to say either way.


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## TxTickPkr (Aug 5, 2013)

Well Old Spook ASA, it is said," Fear the government that fears it's citizens". You my friend are a thinker and that can make you dangerous in their eyes. As for statistics and information on just about anything, I can't think of a poorer source than the federal department of ---. Just my not so humble opinion after 40 years of researching standards and noticing the effects of agenda on government agencies. . Rule # 1, Follow the money. Big money in recycling and the permits required to be licensed and qualified to do so. A scared population is a compliant population on guard for those unregulated operations or other activities or being non PC and turning to the only authority they trust more than themselves. Fear will always be man's most devastating eppademic.


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## Susi (Mar 3, 2013)

Shooting lead ammo be it a rifle or SS or hand gun doesn't amount to much lead in the environment. Recovering scrap lead from shooting ranges in fact is fun and saves a LOT of money for reloaders or makes a lot of money for recycleers. My hubby recovered over seven hundred lbs of lead from an NRA range of which he was an officer many years back and was delighted he'd never have to ever buy lead again for casting bullets. Ten 7.62mm NATO ammo cans worth, at about 70lbs each can cast into bars for his Lee electric bottom feed lead pot.

Back to shooting lead ammo. Don't for a minute think you'll wreck the environment as an SS shooter using lead the rest of your life.

Lead oxidizes to a white substance which is not soluable in water particularly. I've found antique miniballs which were in the ground for over two centuries and they haven't lost much if any lead to the ground.

Remember, lead comes from the ground in the first place.

Cars used to use leaded gasoline and spewed hundreds of thousands of tons of lead into the air which eventually settled on the land. Yet there is no harm. So shoot away my friend, you will contribute such a minute amount of lead to the environment that it would take billions of you to make any iimpact on the environment and there aren't that many SS shooters. Steel ammo is good for broadcasting lots of pellets/projectiles such as shotgun shooters in wet lands but for SSers, lead is fine.


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## Cervantes (Jun 10, 2011)

Cjw said:


> The stuff that amazes me is I'm an electrical superintendent for a large contractor . We have to have abatement contractors remove any asbestos before we can work on a lot of projects by law. But when I attend abatement training classes you know where they say you breath in more asbestos than anyplace else? Driving on the road because there's still asbestos used in a lot of brake linings today look it up. So a lot of it makes no sense.


Asbestos is fabulous for it's intended purpose. If it is disturbed in a residence or commercial building, thats when your at risk. In the open, it's really hard to get a full drag on that asbestos dust as the environemnt has a way of abating pollutants., Indoors, not so much.


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## Cervantes (Jun 10, 2011)

BUT.. I would not worry about using lead ammo in the wild.. unless your dropping hundreds of pounds of the stuff. One shot, one kill. Aim small, miss small. Retrieve your ammo. Rinse and repeat.


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## JetBlack (Mar 9, 2012)

If you're worried about your lead levels eat iron supplements, it reduces it in you're body..


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## KITROBASKIN (May 20, 2013)

I am not trying to persuade anyone to change their ways, just pointing out something some of you might find interesting. The question of metal uptake in plants was mentioned. You Australian folks may have already heard of this.

http://www.gizmag.com/eucalyptus-gold-leaf-csiro/29520/


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

The reason I use steel shot its much easier to pick up. I use a broom handle with a rare earth magnet on the end makes it really quick to collect the shot.


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

Cjw said:


> The reason I use steel shot its much easier to pick up. I use a broom handle with a rare earth magnet on the end makes it really quick to collect the shot.


The magnet is a beautiful thing with steel. Makes it fast and easy to clear a catch box. No bending to pick up on the ground.


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## August West (Jan 21, 2012)

CJW,

Where did you get the magnet?


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Gun show at the Orange County Fair grounds .


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## August West (Jan 21, 2012)

Well don't think I will be driving down to pick one up. LOL


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

You can tape a strong magnet to a broom handle.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

You should be able to pick them up at a place that sells construction supplies. They have the same type of set up for picking up dry wall screws from the floor.


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## August West (Jan 21, 2012)

Thanks for the tip I will check it out.


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## KITROBASKIN (May 20, 2013)

It sure is nice how this forum allows folks to talk about related matters of varying degrees without a moderator jumping in to make us get back on topic. Though I can't access the patent application thread now, says I am not registered. If this post works, then... What gives? How's that for off topic?


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

It was moved to private forum. For supporting members only.


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## KITROBASKIN (May 20, 2013)

Cjw said:


> It was moved to private forum. For supporting members only.


Kind of like the "freemium" games on the iPad maybe? Do supporting members get to see the financials regarding the Slingshotforum.com operation? By being a supporting member is one able to more clearly discern the motives of some of the prominent members and the moderators?

If I started a thread on this matter it would probably get zero response. I am usually ignored by the cognoscenti. (Not always)


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