# The Way of the Slingshot Online Dojo



## M.J

This post and idea grew out of Skropi's post about the mental aspect of slingshot shooting. In the course of that discussion Ordo linked to a book called "Zen in the Art of Archery", which discusses the Japanese martial art of kyudo or Way of the Bow.
Kyudo has several set protocols for shooting which are followed in a slow, meditative style. Like all other martial arts, it's about "correctness", not accuracy. A more far-eastern approach of focusing on the act, not the result. This is not to say that accuracy is not important, just that accuracy comes from correct shooting, not the other way around. Accuracy is not the goal. It is a style of active meditation that uses the Bow as a medium. 
Anyway. 
I would like to start practicing this style with the slingshot, since the mechanics translate almost directly. I'll be using the same breath techniques, same overhead draw style, same stance, and same follow through as a kyudo archer. If anyone would like to join me and post their thoughts, their setup, whatever, then this can be our online dojo.
Just to be clear, I'm not a practitioner of any martial art, just an interested party. I think I've learned enough over the last 8 years of shooting slingshot and the last couple years studying books on Zen practice as it relates to martial arts that I am ready to step foot on this path and maybe help others who aren't as experienced. 
This post isn't to debate the merit of this approach, which will always come down to the individual. Replies along the lines of "well, that's not how I like to shoot" or "why don't you just go shoot a can" are not welcome and will not last long. I try to never abuse my moderator powers, but this thread is about encouragement. If it's not your thing that's totally fine, just move along.
I'll be posting my thoughts, videos, and practice guidelines here. In the meantime I encourage you to Google "kyudo " and read up on it and maybe watch some vids. If someone could link to the pdf of "Zen in the Art of Archery " in this post I'd appreciate it. I'm not so good with the technology...


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## skropi

Thank you for starting this thread MJ. I haven't still read the book, but the few shots I've took with a somewhat similar approach, meaning focusing on the act of shooting, breathing, etc, and not the result, were very encouraging. Not because I hit the target, hardly even looking at its general position, but because my mind was at last at ease. It made my shooting, albeit short, much more relaxed and enjoyable. The good results was just a by-product, I don't dwell on that. 
Just a question, is the technique of the kyudo explained in the book linked by Ordo? Or only the mental processes? I have to finish reading tonight, to start tomorrow my new way. 
Yes, it's not about the results, it's about the process, giving it a higher meaning. Interestingly enough, the results do come, at least in my case.


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## M.J

Both are discussed at length and there are some good videos on YouTube as well.


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## M.J

Esteemed forum member and wordsmith Mojave Mo suggested "Shin-Ken slingshot shooting " as a name for the form. Shin-ken is Japanese for "true sword ".
I like it very much


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## treefork

One shot-one life !


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## M.J

An excellent explanation from the International Kyudo Federation of the mental attitude of kyudo (and of Shin-ken slingshot ):
http://www.ikyf.org/mental_attitude.html


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## treefork

The blowgun is used to the same end in Japan . " Fukiya "


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## Ordo

M.J said:


> An excellent explanation from the International Kyudo Federation of the mental attitude of kyudo (and of Shin-ken slingshot ):
> http://www.ikyf.org/mental_attitude.html


That's a good reading. Thanks.


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## MOJAVE MO

I like it, and good timing for me. Mother Nature has lowered the Desert Sun.

Aside from a Peaceful Mind. Shall Shin-ken Shooting have a set of definable disciplines?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## M.J

Yeah, I'm going to write up a few guidelines and procedures similar to what is done in kyudo. That's why I'm directing people that way for right now, because it will be very similar. Stance, focus, breathing, draw, etc.
I practiced all day using the kyudo form as outlined in the book and it was fascinating! Calming and quieting to the inner noise like meditation but without all the sitting still.
We're moving into our new place this weekend, but I'll try to find some time to lay down and outline. Or check out the first 20 pages of Zen in the Art of Archery. I'm really going to do my best to get some videos up, too.


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## flipgun

Sounds a good thing.


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## Bill Hays

This subject is something I am probably considered an expert.... after all, for my black belt in Aikido, I had to show "mastery" of two traditional Japanese weapons, my choice.

One of the weapons I chose was the Japanese long bow, favored by mounted Samurai... Since I was taller than most, the long draw style really appealed to me.... and it wasn't to long before I could outshoot the instructor...

Kyudo is great if you want to work on "the way" (literally translated, Do = the way)... You'll learn how to focus better and train in meditative movement... along the journey learning why the draw is performed as it is (I gave a huge hint in mentioning mounted Samurai)... the actual end goal being enlightenment, self fulfillment and ultimately "living in Zen".

BUT, the thing is if you want to be as accurate as possible with a slingshot... I do not think Kyudo is necessarily the correct path to take for you to find "the way"... of being as accurate as possible.

My opinion is... and I actually had quite a controversial disagreement with my Sensei about it... to become as good as you can be at shooting, you should concentrate only on the aspects which contribute to making you better at shooting... peripheral knowledge is fine, peripheral movements/exercise were also fine to learn, but when it comes to the actual shot and accuracy itself, they (if used) can and quite often do hinder what you really want... and that is to be more accurate.

Me, I wanted to master the weapon and shoot it more accurately, as well as I could and hopefully better than most others.... really didn't want to try and find my way to self realization... I felt that I was fine in that regard already.

So basically I had the thought that anything that didn't contribute to the goal of being a better shot, actually could and probably does take away from the actual end goal of most shooters... and that is specifically to become the best shot they can be.

That being said... I'll help out where I can... giving my opinion on what can help with accuracy and so forth... but when it comes to the idea of using specifically Kyudo type movements and many of their concepts... I don't feel that would necessarily be all that helpful to what most really want to achieve.


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## skropi

Heya Bill! 
My reason for starting the other thread, The mental game of shooting, was to find a solution for the mental fatigue I get from shooting. That little discussion over there, led us to kyudo and its mental approach, and then led MJ to start this more specific thread.
I don't know exactly what MJ, or anyone else has in mind, but here is how I look at this matter.
I want to be as accurate as possible, that's the basic fact. I've reached a point that while my body can shoot hundreds of shots with little effort, my mind really can't. I become mentally fatigued very easily. Let me give you a usual example. I shot 1 shot at each target, a 6cm one, a 4cm, a 3cm and 1.7cm, and I get 4 consecutive hits. Great! I can't make it all the time of course, but when I do.....my mind refuses to shoot anymore. It's psychological, the pressure I put on myself to become better and better.
So, for me at least, this whole Kyudo thing, was a way of making me relax, and I did manage it a bit, by concentrating solely on my form, and not on the possible hit or miss! 
No, I am not trying to find enlightenment, or copy every move they do in Kyudo, I am trying to reach the calm mental state that they seem to achieve, and I think all good shooters achieve that, whether it is Kyudo, Olympic archery or whatever.
So, I take elements of technique from Olympic archery, and mental calmness from Kyudo  And yes, when I am calm, without my self imposed pressure, I shoot better and longer! That's what I need to achieve now, mental stamina.
All in all, what I think this thread is really about, isn't so much accuracy, but how to improve on ones focus on stance/posture/technique and most importantly, mental attitude! Which will yield results in accuracy too!


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## Alfred E.M.

If someone could link to the pdf of "Zen in the Art of Archery " in this post I'd appreciate it. I'm not so good with the technology...

http://www.ideologic.org/files/Eugen_Herrigel_-_Zen_in_the_Art_of_Archery.pdf

*... been in my bookmarks for years. In a nutshell, the goal of any concentration discipline is to turn off the white noise ... to stop 'thinking' during practice.*

*Real progress occurs when you can stop reading about zen and start practicing it.*


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## Royleonard

Having been down several marital roads in my life I tend to go along with Bill Hays thinking.Form is necessary so are mechanics but I believe these come with mindful practice.If I do this this happens,etc. I like Mojave Mo’s quote “Do not acknowledge that which you do not wish to occur” because if your thinking of all the other stuff where is the attention focused that the targets needs to get hit. I try to “Be here now”and take 10,000 shots and learn from each one.So my form changes with each shot if only microscopically.


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## M.J

I agree with you, Bill. I don't think that just following the form setup by kyudo will lead to pinpoint accuracy. It takes more than that.
But dedication and practice do lead to great shooting and if you're not already at that high level then maybe a direction to follow is a good thing to have.
I don't know for sure, I'm just starting at this part of it too.
Personally, I already have what I consider to be an impressive slingshot resume. I'm looking for something else. Everything I learn about Zen practice makes me more interested in it, but I've never been able to settle down with a practice method. An active meditation involving my favorite passtime seems ideal to me.
So, I'm here for the path to Enlightenment. Any reason that anybody wants to come along is fine, or I'll go alone. Which is fine, too


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## skropi

Royleonard said:


> Having been down several marital roads in my life I tend to go along with Bill Hays thinking.Form is necessary so are mechanics but I believe these come with mindful practice.If I do this this happens,etc. I like Mojave Mo's quote "Do not acknowledge that which you do not wish to occur" because if your thinking of all the other stuff where is the attention focused that the targets needs to get hit. I try to "Be here now"and take 10,000 shots and learn from each one.So my form changes with each shot if only microscopically.


I think we all agree with that! The subject is different, it's not about how to achieve accuracy, it is about how to be mentally relaxed and able to concentrate for long periods of time. 
For me, what I do, is this. I have my form down, I know how to raise my holding hand, grip the pouch, etc. So, when I shoot, I do not think at all about hitting the target, success or failure doesn't enter my thought, as the only thing that I think about is nothing, my total concentration is focused on my form, which I know it works. I dont even focus on the target, as it really distracts me if it is bigger than 1.5cm, I don't focus on my frame, I focus on form, and my sight focuses on infinity, everything else a blur. That way I can stay relaxed when shooting, and not get mental fatigue, and as a happy consequence, hit my targets more often! 
Of course, in order to get to this point, I did focus entirely on my technique, making slight, and not so slight changes, until I found what is the most consistent way for me to shoot. What I didn't manage to fix, and I am only now on my way of fixing, is the fear of failure, which causes me to get tired and stop shooting early. 
So, one doesn't contradict the other in reality. Keep in mind that I am not copying Kyudo's physical technique, only the mentality, which probably I also adapt to my own idiosyncrasies.
In a few words, when I draw, my purpose isn't to hit the target, but to have perfect form, my focus isn't on the target, so I let my brain do its thing, and line everything up, while I remain calm. I do aim of course, just not the way I did before. It works for me, and it's something I am only now developing, so I don't know what changes, if any, I will be making.


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## M.J

I do think that the relaxation and focus techniques could be helpful with tournament shooting. Concentrating one one shot at a time is one of the most useful things you can do in a tournament setting, along with being able to block out distraction. 
Having a set routine of shooting to lean on seems like a real benefit. Something you do every time, whether you're in your yard or at the World Cup. I've seen many very good shooters fall to pieces after the first miss in competition (and sometimes before...)


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## Ordo

*The arch and the stones*

Marco Polo describes a bridge, stone by stone.
"But which is the stone that supports the bridge?" Kublai Khan asks.
"The bridge is not supported by one stone or another," Marco answers, "but by the line of the arch that they form."
Kublai Khan remains silent, reflecting. Then he adds: "Why do you speak to me of the stones? It is only the arch that matters to me."
Polo answers: "Without stones there is no arch."

From Invisible Cities, by Italo Calvino.


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## RenegadeShooter

Not focusing on the target, not focusing on the frame, let it all be a blur, etc. Seems like the ideal way to do this is to shoot at night in the dark. Can't see the target, can't see the frame leaves one with nothing to think about other than correct form. Is it worth trying?


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## skropi

RenegadeShooter, what's funny is that only now didnI start to develop my own unique style of shooting/aiming, because of this discussion, along with the other thread of course. 
I don't know if I am aiming, but if I do, I certainly don't do it the same way. I mean, the target, the frame, it's all in my sight picture, but no longer do I actively line them up. It's probably semi-instinctive, or just hard aiming done differently. I really don't mind, as I am really having fun plus good results this way!
I did have some night shots, which were decent, but my confidence still takes a plunge in low light conditions ☹


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## skropi

I won't lie, I got the shivers again. I did manage to shoot much more than before though, so, making a point of breathing steadily and concentrating on form does work, but progress can't happen overnight. At least I do feel much better now whether I hit or miss!


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## RenegadeShooter

It actually helped me to shoot in the dark with a solar light shining directly on my spinner in the catch box. I really knew that I had to have my slingshot frame and bands perfectly lined up or I'd get a nasty fork or hand hit. My hit to miss ratio did improve in the dark.


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## Bill Hays

Some time ago, there was a study done between two large Tae Kwon Do schools in South Korea... they conducted an interschool tournament for beginners - green belt... old ranking system, 10th - 7th gup.

The only thing was, one of the schools had way to many white belts, so they simply put yellow, orange and green belts on most of their white belts and told them to act like green belts, do what they've seen green belts do... the other school kept it's ranks as they were.

It was noted that during the tournament almost every senior belt, whether they were a real senior belt or not, won almost every fight... it didn't matter if both were actually white belts, with the same amount of experience... the one who ACTED like the senior belt won the match.

Now, extrapolate... use that same concept with slingshots...

Study the affectations of someone who is a great shot... keep how they move, their posture, stance, draw, how they aim... how they release, what they do afterwards... keep it all in your head.... now imagine yourself doing what you've seen... be as detailed and complete as possible in your recollection and mental reenactment...

Once you have it all worked out... ACT like you're that person, including affectations of personality...

Notice how all the sudden you're able to pretty much do much of what you imagined... now all it takes is more practice... but while you practice... ACT like what you want to be.

This same concept is used in many sports that require precision movement... imagination is one of the greatest assets of the top level athlete...

You want to be like "Mike"... ACT like Mike

You want to be a Sniper... ACT like a Sniper

Then... once you've practiced enough... studied enough different examples of what you want and have gone through the process again and again... all of the sudden you will be what you wanted to be... but because each and every one of us is a little different, certain things will work better for one person more than another... so you'll naturally retain what works best for you and hopefully discard much of what hinders....

Now, YOU become the person who others will emulate and absorb affectations from...

You've taken from others, and now you're giving back... the cycle continues


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## RenegadeShooter

There have also been studies done with basket ball players who were divided up in two groups. One group practiced on the court daily for 30 days or whatever it was. The other group did not go to the court but spent a corresponding amount of time each day with their eyes closed imagining that they were practicing with every shot made being a perfect shot, no misses. When the meditative group came back on the court, they out performed the group who had practiced every day.

I've also heard stories of Vietnam captured soldiers who passed their time in solitude by playing nine holes of golf in their mind's eye. When they returned home their golf game had far surpassed what it had been before going to war.

Why won't the same work for slingshot shooting.....that is if we actually know what correct form is and can duplicate it in our mind.


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## skropi

@Bill Hays
Bill, that's what I did from day 1, having watched your videos, with great success! Later along the road, I emulated different styles too of course, but the thing is that what you suggested definitely works!

@RenegadeShooter
I don't know if what you suggested actually works, but I do practice it! I believe that it's beneficial, even though I can't prove it!


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## RenegadeShooter

Easy to prove. Stop shooting for a week or two and try it.


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## flipgun

I used to practice for dart tournaments by stepping up to the line (eyes open) and shoot a game with everything except the dart.


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## skropi

RenegadeShooter said:


> Easy to prove. Stop shooting for a week or two and try it.


Actually, this will be the hardest thing to do ???? I can't stop shooting man!


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## skropi

flipgun said:


> I used to practice for dart tournaments by stepping up to the line (eyes open) and shoot a game with everything except the dart.


Did you find it beneficial?


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## flipgun

skropi said:


> flipgun said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used to practice for dart tournaments by stepping up to the line (eyes open) and shoot a game with everything except the dart.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you find it beneficial?
Click to expand...

It was. Without the real dart in my hand, my focus was more directed to my stance and the motion of my throw rather than on the dart and the board.


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## MOJAVE MO

My Shin-ken sling, Gunjiro after my great grandfather. Each knot a reminder of our family curse and my quest to bring it to an end, on my terms. The glass came from the starboard lamp of the ship that Gunjiro Aoki and his 3 brothers sailed on from Japan to San Francisco around the year 1900. He secreted away that glass shard as he knew that all passengers would be searched for weapons when entering the country. His life would be saved a year later when he was able to cut his bonds loose and free himself after some miscommunication with two Chinese assassins he was hiring to blind the father of his pregnant American girlfriend.

I will shoot this sling from an anchor point over my heart to connect myself with grandfather. I will feel what he felt and take each shot with my deepest conviction.

His quest for love, will be my quest for love....of my target. My eyes will be opened or closed, but seeing always from my target. Calmly waiting for the projectile to arrive at my complete center. Each shot a small drop of hope, that it may happen just once again.

Grandpa Gunjiro was an excellent shot. Which is why I am with you today to share this story.

Arigatou,

Mojave Mo aka Moses Aoki























Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## M.J

Dang, Mo, that's a heavy story!
No shooting for me all weekend or today because I was moving then working. I did take a few draws just to feel the centering effect of the process. 
Sorry I haven't updated this more yet. I have to work again tomorrow but will get in some practice on Wednesday for sure.


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## M.J

This is a pretty good explanation of the form that kyudo archers follow and what I will be attempting to adapt to slingshot shooting. 
http://www.kyudo.com/kyudo-t.html
I'm going to do it more or less this way, only altering the process when it doesn't apply because of the differences between a bow and a slingshot. This method and form has been developed and refined over the centuries. My thought is that I want to see what it is about and the more I change it the farther I am from the meaning. 
I don't want to keep saying "I'll just change this or that because it's more familiar or comfortable " because that's a slippery slope that absolutely wouldn't be allowed in actual practice of the art with a teacher. 
Once again : I know this is a pretty esoteric topic and I'm not asking anything of anyone. It's just what I'm going to do.


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## skropi

I am really interested where this will lead you! 
As for me, I am still learning the basics of slingshooting, so I have looong ways to go till I start experimenting at this extent. As I said, of course, I did change my mental approach A LOT, and still practicing on that front.
But....I still haven't decided wether to twist 90° the pouch or not, so.......
Good luck on your journey MJ, keep us posted, and I will one day follow in a more exact way!


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## M.J

A few recommendations as you begin practice :
Make a quiet place to shoot. No music or tv, don't take your phone with you. Also, a quiet target and quiet backstop or catchbox. I shoot at a 1.25" leather spinner because it's durable and quiet. You don't want the hit or not hit to distract from the shooting. My catchbox is a recycling tote with a length of paracord across the front and is thickly padded with t-shirts hanging in back. I get a muted thump from the ammo hitting, even though I'm shooting 1/2" steel at 25-30'.
Concentrate on proper (as outlined in Zen in the Art of Archery, or ZAA from now on ) breathing and form over amiing and result. The result is a proper or improper shot, not a hit.
Have you ever had that feeling before a shot that you know it is a hit or a miss before the release? That's what I'm trying to get in touch with. Not through research and note taking, but through clearing my mind enough to hear this... whatever it is. I want to know the spirit of slingshooting that whispers in our ear sometimes and knows the shot before it is taken.


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## skropi

The only way I get this feeling is when I have my back turned towards the target, and turn as quickly as possible to face it and shoot. That results in many many hits!


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## Blue Raja

MJ - very good advice - thank you for starting the thread. I am working on a proper stance, engaging my core muscles, raising the slingshot over my head, orienting, focusing on the target and then lowering the slingshot to shoulder level as I draw, and waiting for the proper instant to release, all done without rushing the shot and in a paced and deliberate manner.

When I am in the office and a banded slingshot is inappropriate, I practice with an empty frame (unbanded).


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## M.J

That's great, man! I'm doing the same :thumbsup:


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## MOJAVE MO

Yesterday I improvised my target and practiced my ZAA. On my 3rd shot I hit the center of my target. Then I went home. During the drive home my elation was split between my bullseye, and my own self-control. I left the range with the deep understanding that it is only when I return to that place again, may my concentration be more focused and less erratic.

Of course later again I was jacked up on veggie lasagna and had to share my visit in another thread to the scariest sling range in America.....think I had another post about girls after midnight.......dunno....dunno.. Sensei.....maybe I should have left a few hundred rounds in the desert.... succumb to the fear....take the FAB risk....ditch the Kimono...whack a mole....buy a kilt......??? Dehydration is Real!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## flipgun

Scanning the thread, I did not see if you mentioned what shooter and set up you are using for this. Are you focusing on one "Bow" or trying to spread this out over a variety, just to keep it about the form and the shot than the shooter?


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## M.J

I shot for a little over half an hour today and probably took 20 shots. I try not to shoot more than about 4 in a row so as not to just be going through the motions.
Out of those I had two or three where I really felt tuned in and a few where I really wasn't getting it.
Core tension is really important, as Blue Raja mentioned. The other thing that was making for successful shots was being sure to draw back all the way, which can be easy to let lapse with a floating anchor that's less than FAB. For me, anyway. I draw back as far as I can without turning my hand over, if that makes any sense. 
Still loving the medatative aspect of this style.


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## M.J

flipgun said:


> Scanning the thread, I did not see if you mentioned what shooter and set up you are using for this. Are you focusing on one "Bow" or trying to spread this out over a variety, just to keep it about the form and the shot than the shooter?


I'm using the one I got from SharpshooterJD exclusively. 
It does exactly what I want it to do, it's exactly as big as it needs to be and no bigger, and it was made by a master craftsman, which gives it the proper spirit for this endeavor


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## bigdh2000

Interesting topic and read. For me, the biggest thing is visualizing everything which can only be done right with focus. I shoot in my basement a lot and my dog stands to one side whimpering (he hates the band slapping sound but refuses to leave me alone). Since the last SEST, my accuracy skyrockets when I can focus to the point of tuning him out. It was something @Bill Hays said that led me down this path - wait for six seconds. While he stated it for other reasons relating to bands, I noticed that I had to focus intently to not loose the sight picture. You enter that place where everything suddenly slows down. It's crazy. Further still, you learn to reach that place almost instantly after a while.


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## BROOKS

I could see this approach being helpful to me. I’ve been having a problem with target flinch. A meditative approach just might be the thing.


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## M.J

BROOKS said:


> I could see this approach being helpful to me. I've been having a problem with target flinch. A meditative approach just might be the thing.


One of the central guidelines is that once the connection is made with the target eye contact is not broken until after the follow through is over. Working up to this has made my focus improve.


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## M.J

Excellent sesh today. I felt a little scattered going in and wondered if I should even shoot since I wasn't as calm and zoned in as possible, but once I took the stance and started breathing deliberately things cleared and quieted. 
I moved my catchbox back to 35' or so after shooting from about 28' the last few days. My number of hits on my 1.5" target went up. I don't know how many hits and misses there were and I'm not supposed to be worrying about it, but I like hits better than misses. Old habits die hard.


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## Blue Raja

Recalling a kyudo workshop several years ago in which we were told that the target is just a place to look "you either hit the target or you don't - it really doesn't matter" instead, we were encouraged to pay attention to stance, breathing, and form.

Here is a quote from the International Kyudo Federation:

Basically you just aim and shoot at a stationary target. The result is judged not only by whether you hit or miss, but how the Shagyo (process of shooting) was carried out.
A good Sha (shooting) comes from good posture. You must stand with your back straight, pull your shoulders back to keep perfect balance and focus your energy on the Tanden (the lower abdomen). Then concentrate to the limit to release the arrow. If done correctly, this will lead to an accurate hit. As you wait and see that time right for you between the yumi and the target, you release the arrow calmly, accurately and boldly. Even though you might have done your best, you may still have missed the target. Take this time to reflect on what you might have done wrong. This process of reflection is a large part of our discipline and also the reason why Kyudo is so deeply appreciated by many.

I am combining this w/ Skropi's 4 month challenge. Staying 1 one frame eliminates a potential distraction.


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## M.J

I put a set of butterfly bands on my forged ttf that I've been using just to see what this style felt like with the full draw. 
I focused on spreading the arms equally to full draw, which made the whole experience more slingshotty and less like archery. I didn't hit my ear or miss my catchbox, so I think it has potential. 
I wanted to try the buttah because that's the style that first made me think of slingshooting as meditation. Watching Arturo shoot and trying to be as centered as he was. Eventually it became just another way to shoot and I lost the medatative aspect of it, then basically stopped shooting that style. 
My main issue with combining butterfly and Shin-Ken is that it's hard to find the "point of highest tension ". With heavy bands the signals are clearer, but with bands I could hold seemingly forever they're more subtle.


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## Rayshot

M.J said:


> A few recommendations as you begin practice :
> Make a quiet place to shoot. No music or tv, don't take your phone with you. Also, a quiet target and quiet backstop or catchbox. I shoot at a 1.25" leather spinner because it's durable and quiet. You don't want the hit or not hit to distract from the shooting. My catchbox is a recycling tote with a length of paracord across the front and is thickly padded with t-shirts hanging in back. I get a muted thump from the ammo hitting, even though I'm shooting 1/2" steel at 25-30'.
> Concentrate on proper (as outlined in Zen in the Art of Archery, or ZAA from now on ) breathing and form over amiing and result. The result is a proper or improper shot, not a hit.
> Have you ever had that feeling before a shot that you know it is a hit or a miss before the release? That's what I'm trying to get in touch with. Not through research and note taking, but through clearing my mind enough to hear this... whatever it is. I want to know the spirit of slingshooting that whispers in our ear sometimes and knows the shot before it is taken.


What you are trying to get in touch with is exactly what I have been trying to train my mind and body to do on any given instant. As you surely know I am still working on the ability to know the the shot will be a hit *when I want it to*.

I say; "when I want it to", because through the years I will willfully heighten my mental focus and confidence and know I will hit the target. Not just once but as long as I can keep my mind in that state. The most interesting aspect of knowing I will hit the target comes largely from two different feelings, or mental states, the one I just mentioned which is a bit more forced, like psyching myself up and the other is a more relaxed and in the zone feeling where the best I can describe it is when one is immersed in creative state, less conscious, more feeling the rightness of the shot being "on".

As for the former way to get into that state, Dan and I once chatted about that and we both said it is almost like getting a bit mad (this is one way to psyche yourself). Not really mad but getting perturbed that there is no allowance for yourself to settle for less than bringing yourself mentally and physically in line for accurate shooting.

As for the latter, the feeling is almost like the mind mentally drops into gear, or perhaps out of a gear, where *it is a feel* and very little talk in the head. Something like this happens; I will wait for the mental shift and say to myself; "now", "ok", "yes" as an acknowledgment of the shift and then very soon after if not immediately release the shot, when the feel that I am on target is there. The hit ratio in this state is so high a percentage that it still leaves me in awe of how it happens. *The mind already knows all the "math"*. The question is how do we get our own minds out of the way? And thus this discussion.


----------



## M.J

I hear you, Ray! Good stuff.
My goal is to just walk around in that state, not have to try to get into it.


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## M.J

The peril of being both student and teacher: I was cheating and it took me a while to realise it because I wasn't able to watch myself shoot. If I was watching someone else I would have picked up on it right away. 
I was going through the motions of breathing and centering and all that, doing the dramatic overhead draw and then... lining up and aiming, just like I always have.
I admit, the results were very good. Some of the most consistent shooting I've done in a couple years, but that's not what I'm looking for. Things that are easily gained are easily lost.
So, new plan. Everything is going to follow the kyudo model except that for the draw I'm holding the frame and pouch at shoulder height in front of me, then both arms spread apart at the same time into a full buttah draw across the chest. I can still use the lessons that the overhead kyudo draw imparts, such as how to draw with relaxed muscles through leverage, but with a form more suited to a butterfly slingshot draw. And that won't allow me to anchor (on my cheek) and aim as I've always done.
With any luck I'll actually be able to concentrate more on the empty mind/pure shooting aspect and less on hitting the target. Then I'll hit the target more. Savvy?
If you guys are tired of hearing about this and think I'm nuts I can just do my thing without posting about it. :thumbsup:


----------



## KawKan

Hey, M.J. keep sharing your experiences! I suspect I'm not the only one following this thread.

By happenstance, I was shooting full butterfly at shoulder/chest height just yesterday. I was focused on projecting the path of the ammo, and surprised myself by staying in the catchbox and even scoring a few hits! I was recalling vids of Roger Henrie shooting. No butterfly, but otherwise similar. I could never understand his accuracy.

The the overhead draw does feel pretty dramatic. I'm modifying that to taking a Horse stance holding the slingshot, and raising both arms to shoulder height for a full draw. I need to compare the effort of that draw to the overhead style.



M.J said:


> The peril of being both student and teacher: I was cheating and it took me a while to realise it because I wasn't able to watch myself shoot. If I was watching someone else I would have picked up on it right away.
> I was going through the motions of breathing and centering and all that, doing the dramatic overhead draw and then... lining up and aiming, just like I always have.
> I admit, the results were very good. Some of the most consistent shooting I've done in a couple years, but that's not what I'm looking for. Things that are easily gained are easily lost.
> So, new plan. Everything is going to follow the kyudo model except that for the draw I'm holding the frame and pouch at shoulder height in front of me, then both arms spread apart at the same time into a full buttah draw across the chest. I can still use the lessons that the overhead kyudo draw imparts, such as how to draw with relaxed muscles through leverage, but with a form more suited to a butterfly slingshot draw. And that won't allow me to anchor (on my cheek) and aim as I've always done.
> With any luck I'll actually be able to concentrate more on the empty mind/pure shooting aspect and less on hitting the target. Then I'll hit the target more. Savvy?
> If you guys are tired of hearing about this and think I'm nuts I can just do my thing without posting about it. :thumbsup:


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## Blue Raja

Please keep posting- This is a great thread


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## trapperdes

Definitely keep posting! While I'm not sure I would ever take it up I am very interested in it


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## MikeyLikesIt

Definitely keep posting on this topic! This concept reminds me of a system developed by Joel Turner called "Iron Mind". It was designed for bowhunters, but focused completely on the mental aspect of making your shots and controlling target panic, etc. People who've studied it reported eliminating target panic/random fliers/etc. I don't know how similar it is to Kyudo (I never purchased the content), but what bits I have read sound very similar. It might provide some nice companion material to the Japanese philosophy. I've studied martial arts, and sometimes it helped me to hear a Western interpretation of a Japanese concept. It cut through some of the cultural differences and made the Japanese philosophy more understandable.

Regardless, this is fascinating stuff! I'm still learning how to develop good habits, but this type of mental strategy is highly interesting. Please keep us informed of your progress!


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## skarrd

following this topic very closely as this is exactly what I try for in my shooting,at least the therapy aspects of shooting,snake are a whole different matter tho.


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## RenegadeShooter

Wait; What Happened Here???? I logged on and there is nothing posted on the sling shot dojo .... what gives??? Is the dojo closed on Sunday?


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## M.J

RenegadeShooter said:


> Wait; What Happened Here???? I logged on and there is nothing posted on the slingshot dojo .... what gives??? Is the dojo closed on Sunday?


I'll respond this one time since you seem to have trouble taking a hint. 
In the first post of this discussion I said that posts from people who weren't interested, didn't "get" what we were trying to do here, or were otherwise unconstructively negative were not welcome. Putting yourself out there and trying something different is hard enough without the peanut gallery criticizing things they don't understand. 
If you don't like the idea that a few of us are discussing here, then move along. No need to comment about it. You can probably choose to ignore the post if you just can't help but click on it.
See my recent status update about the value of the critic if you have any further questions.


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## RenegadeShooter

Somebody seems to be a bit touchy this morning. I've been enjoying reading this post but if you insist, I will stop reading it. Donn't want to offend anyone by following it.


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## M.J

RenegadeShooter said:


> Somebody seems to be a bit touchy this morning. I've been enjoying reading this post but if you insist, I will stop reading it. Donn't want to offend anyone by following it.


Much appreciated.


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## Rayshot

M.J said:


> I hear you, Ray! Good stuff.
> My goal is to just walk around in that state, not have to try to get into it.


I totally get what you want to achieve. I guess that is what I too have been trying to understand and achieve, if it is possible to have it always "on" or if it is a shift in what the brain needs to access. The more years that go by the more I feel it is in actuality, working on how quickly and effortlessly the shift happens, how quickly we can switch to what we need our brain's to access. I believe it is a lot about the two sides of the brain and what each does. I remember hearing or reading that women typically have more connections between the two sides of the brain than men and can access more fluently between the two sides.

I see something that reminds me of this all the time. For example; at our Kingdom Halls when a guy is doing a question and answer part and he calls on someone he has known for decades sometimes draws a blank on his friends name. Weirdest thing but it shows me that the brain is focusing on one type of thought process like logic and concepts etc then require the brain to remember a name of a well know friend which is perhaps on the other side of the brain, and the mind goes blank indicates to me it has to access, or shift to using another part of the brain.

So my conclusion thus far is; work on the quickness of shifting into the state because there is no way to not have other brain functions take priority over the "shooting state of mind". And of course, also staying in the state for as long as desired.


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## treefork

Remember in the movie " Over The Top " when Sly had a method of turning his hat backwards to change his state of mind .


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## M.J

I took the lessons of the dojo into the woods today. Hunting post to follow, but not too much about hunting.
I have enjoyed slingshot hunting for a few years but have never really been very good at it. I generally go and walk around in the woods and spray some ammo and don't bring anything home.
The problem isn't how well I shoot, that's never been an issue. 
The root of the problem is that I wasn't brought up with hunting. Where I'm from, hunting means shooting whitetails with a rifle. If you're really hardcore, you use a $500 compound bow. No aspect of that appeals to me at all. I'm sure that some people around here small game hunt, but I've never known anyone that did until I started coming around this forum.
So I've had to learn to hunt and had to teach myself, which is a recipe for slow growth.
So target shooting continued to improve and hunting prowess never did. But in practicing my Shin-Ken technique I developed a theory about why I've struggled with hunting. 
I figured that my problem wasn't shooting, it was not focusing on shooting. I would get all caught up in hunting and everything that went with that aspect of it and when it came time to take the shot my mind was too full of extra thoughts to effectively shoot anything. 
So today I went to a favorite spot full of oak and hickory trees. It's cool and cloudy and the leaves are mostly down, so conditions were ideal. I had seven half-inch steel balls in my pocket. I figured if it took more than that, I was still doing it wrong and 1/2" is too expensive to coat the forest floor with.
Squirrels were the target today. When the opportunity presented itself I focused on what I wanted to hit, emptied my mind of everything else, pulled back into a proper draw, and focused on the release.
Results still weren't perfect, but there are now fewer squirrels populating that section of woods. Focusing on the shot, not the situation, is a lesson that applies to all forms of shooting where accuracy is the goal.
My weapon today was an Osage pfs made by my man Danny (trapperdes on the forum) banded up with my usual Simple-Shot blacks.


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## trapperdes

M.J said:


> I took the lessons of the dojo into the woods today. Hunting post to follow, but not too much about hunting.
> I have enjoyed slingshot hunting for a few years but have never really been very good at it. I generally go and walk around in the woods and spray some ammo and don't bring anything home.
> The problem isn't how well I shoot, that's never been an issue.
> The root of the problem is that I wasn't brought up with hunting. Where I'm from, hunting means shooting whitetails with a rifle. If you're really hardcore, you use a $500 compound bow. No aspect of that appeals to me at all. I'm sure that some people around here small game hunt, but I've never known anyone that did until I started coming around this forum.
> So I've had to learn to hunt and had to teach myself, which is a recipe for slow growth.
> So target shooting continued to improve and hunting prowess never did. But in practicing my Shin-Ken technique I developed a theory about why I've struggled with hunting.
> I figured that my problem wasn't shooting, it was not focusing on shooting. I would get all caught up in hunting and everything that went with that aspect of it and when it came time to take the shot my mind was too full of extra thoughts to effectively shoot anything.
> So today I went to a favorite spot full of oak and hickory trees. It's cool and cloudy and the leaves are mostly down, so conditions were ideal. I had seven half-inch steel balls in my pocket. I figured if it took more than that, I was still doing it wrong and 1/2" is too expensive to coat the forest floor with.
> Squirrels were the target today. When the opportunity presented itself I focused on what I wanted to hit, emptied my mind of everything else, pulled back into a proper draw, and focused on the release.
> Results still weren't perfect, but there are now fewer squirrels populating that section of woods. Focusing on the shot, not the situation, is a lesson that applies to all forms of shooting where accuracy is the goal.
> My weapon today was an Osage pfs made by my man Danny (trapperdes on the forum) banded up with my usual Simple-Shot blacks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1542052009106-1796002429.jpg


Super!


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## MikeyLikesIt

treefork said:


> Remember in the movie " Over The Top " when Sly had a method of turning his hat backwards to change his state of mind .


This shift in mentality is present in almost all physical endeavors. Athletes have a pre-game routine. The batter taps his cleats and adjusts his grip. The quarterback licks his fingertips and claps. The martial artist bows and assumes a posture, and in regards to Kyudo the drawing of the bow is ritualized and syncronized with breathing (I think. I skimmed the link). The repetition and routine allow us to clear our minds, utilize deeply ingrained movements, and focus on just being, rather than running through a checklist. I played baseball for 16+ years, and the moment you started "thinking" about hitting the pitch, you were toast. You just had to be mindless, completely in the moment. Perhaps the same for silngshots?


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## M.J

If that's the case then I want my shift moment to be when I pick up a slingshot.


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## treefork

Being masters of our own minds has its rewards . The Slingshot is one of many ways to get there . I think its a life long journey more than a destination .


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## Beanflip

MJ, "Focusing on the shot, not the situation, is a lesson that applies to all forms of shooting where accuracy is the goal." YES!

Mikeylikesit, "completely in the moment" and YES!


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## Blue Raja

I am interested everyone's thoughts on a breathing pattern as part of the shot sequence. To get us started, here is a breathing pattern explanation that I shamelessly stole from one of the archery forums. Can it be adapted from a slingshot shot sequence? Should we have a different breathing pattern?

do a relaxed exhalation as you nock the arrow, begin a slow inhalation as you raise the bow and THEN continue as you draw to anchor. Once at anchor, the inhalation continues (yes, some pacing has to be learned) until the release is triggered, and as the tension breaks, you exhale. Why? If you remember your high school biology, expanding (lifting) the rib cage creates negative pressure in the chest cavity, and that assists in inhalation. Think about it, raising the arms, drawing the bow and even expanding at anchor all expand the rib cage to one degree or another. As the arrow leaves, the scapula slides medially and the rib cage relaxes, increasing the intra-thoracic pressure and causing the exhalation.

My shot sequence is way to slow for the recommended single breath. My current breathing pattern is exhale while centering the ammo and gripping the pouch, inhale to raise the slingshot, exhale while acquiring the target, inhale while drawing, hold while concentrating on the target, release and finish exhaling.


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## flipgun

I am quite interested in this thread an wish it to continue. But I have to note that the interaction between you and Renegade Shooter. It is not the way of Zen to reject Negative Energy or Facetiousness . It must be absorbed and considered (sifted, if you will) for the truth that may lay within. After meditation and you have discerned as best as you may the wheat from the chaff, then you put aside the chaff for consideration at a later date to sift again when you have grown in the Way and see what you missed before. There is no path without stones.


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## MOJAVE MO

M.J said:


> I took the lessons of the dojo into the woods today. Hunting post to follow, but not too much about hunting.
> I have enjoyed slingshot hunting for a few years but have never really been very good at it. I generally go and walk around in the woods and spray some ammo and don't bring anything home.
> The problem isn't how well I shoot, that's never been an issue.
> The root of the problem is that I wasn't brought up with hunting. Where I'm from, hunting means shooting whitetails with a rifle. If you're really hardcore, you use a $500 compound bow. No aspect of that appeals to me at all. I'm sure that some people around here small game hunt, but I've never known anyone that did until I started coming around this forum.
> So I've had to learn to hunt and had to teach myself, which is a recipe for slow growth.
> So target shooting continued to improve and hunting prowess never did. But in practicing my Shin-Ken technique I developed a theory about why I've struggled with hunting.
> I figured that my problem wasn't shooting, it was not focusing on shooting. I would get all caught up in hunting and everything that went with that aspect of it and when it came time to take the shot my mind was too full of extra thoughts to effectively shoot anything.
> So today I went to a favorite spot full of oak and hickory trees. It's cool and cloudy and the leaves are mostly down, so conditions were ideal. I had seven half-inch steel balls in my pocket. I figured if it took more than that, I was still doing it wrong and 1/2" is too expensive to coat the forest floor with.
> Squirrels were the target today. When the opportunity presented itself I focused on what I wanted to hit, emptied my mind of everything else, pulled back into a proper draw, and focused on the release.
> Results still weren't perfect, but there are now fewer squirrels populating that section of woods. Focusing on the shot, not the situation, is a lesson that applies to all forms of shooting where accuracy is the goal.
> My weapon today was an Osage pfs made by my man Danny (trapperdes on the forum) banded up with my usual Simple-Shot blacks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1542052009106-1796002429.jpg


That was a good shoot.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## MOJAVE MO

Blue Raja said:


> I am interested everyone's thoughts on a breathing pattern as part of the shot sequence. To get us started, here is a breathing pattern explanation that I shamelessly stole from one of the archery forums. Can it be adapted from a slingshot shot sequence? Should we have a different breathing pattern?
> 
> do a relaxed exhalation as you nock the arrow, begin a slow inhalation as you raise the bow and THEN continue as you draw to anchor. Once at anchor, the inhalation continues (yes, some pacing has to be learned) until the release is triggered, and as the tension breaks, you exhale. Why? If you remember your high school biology, expanding (lifting) the rib cage creates negative pressure in the chest cavity, and that assists in inhalation. Think about it, raising the arms, drawing the bow and even expanding at anchor all expand the rib cage to one degree or another. As the arrow leaves, the scapula slides medially and the rib cage relaxes, increasing the intra-thoracic pressure and causing the exhalation.
> 
> My shot sequence is way to slow for the recommended single breath. My current breathing pattern is exhale while centering the ammo and gripping the pouch, inhale to raise the slingshot, exhale while acquiring the target, inhale while drawing, hold while concentrating on the target, release and finish exhaling.


I breathe very shallow and do so from the abdomen as part of my breathing discipline for Shin-ken. I imagine I am getting all of the oxygen I need from the tiniest of effort to do so.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## M.J

flipgun said:


> I am quite interested in this thread an wish it to continue. But I have to note that the interaction between you and Renegade Shooter. It is not the way of Zen to reject Negative Energy or Facetiousness . It must be absorbed and considered (sifted, if you will) for the truth that may lay within. After meditation and you have discerned as best as you may the wheat from the chaff, then you put aside the chaff for consideration at a later date to sift again when you have grown in the Way and see what you missed before. There is no path without stones.


In the actual practice of life, I totally agree. 
In a place of learning, which is what I am attempting to make this tiny corner of the internet, I disagree. 
The post I responded to is not the first that I've dealt with, just the first in public, so my response may have been seen as harsher than necessary. 
Questions and disagreements among people who are seriously interested are welcome, sarcasm and bullcrap from people who aren't is not.


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## M.J

Re: breathing 
I take a breath, quick deep inhale followed by a slow exhale, looking straight ahead. Another while looking at the target. A third while drawing. 
I hold the final inhale with tight abdomen (as outlined in ZAA). Combined with the proper stance it really helps me feel rooted in the ground and capable of the best form possible. 
Exhale slowly during the follow through that is held for a couple seconds after the shot.


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## skropi

I don't know guys. Today I had an accident, didn't got hurt much, but was commissioned to the hospital, and generally had 7 hours of torture till I got home. 
I am home, I have a headache, I am dehydrated and generally upset, and.....I am nailing my targets! This normally illogical, but I believe that me, taking into account my breathing, does help a lot. 
Yeah, I relax, I do my little personal ritual, as I dont Follow Kyudo to the letter, just the mentality of it, and I am accurate in this less than ideal situation!
I am about to cry guys, first of all because I am still really upset, but mostly because what I wanted, to be able to be consistent no matter the circumstances, is coming near, by having a specific mindset, correct breathing, and ritualizing my shooting! 
I love you all!


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## MakoPat

Much love, Skropi. 
I am very happy you are okay.
You may be experiencing a state of heightened awareness... State that we are all looking for, but in a much more controlled state. Hence your emotions are much bigger because of your awareness just now.

We all need to reach this empathetic state without being overwhelmed and that ain't easy.

Take care, slingers!


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## MOJAVE MO

MakoPat said:


> Much love, Skropi.
> I am very happy you are okay.
> You may be experiencing a state of heightened awareness... State that we are all looking for, but in a much more controlled state. Hence your emotions are much bigger because of your awareness just now.
> 
> We all need to reach this empathetic state without being overwhelmed and that ain't easy.
> 
> Take care, slingers!


Mebbe Skropi shorted out his endorphine pump? Right now you'd get the same reaction if you showed him a Bottomless VFW Plate of Pancakes

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Alfred E.M.

M.J said:


> flipgun said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am quite interested in this thread an wish it to continue. But I have to note that the interaction between you and Renegade Shooter. It is not the way of Zen to reject Negative Energy or Facetiousness . It must be absorbed and considered (sifted, if you will) for the truth that may lay within. After meditation and you have discerned as best as you may the wheat from the chaff, then you put aside the chaff for consideration at a later date to sift again when you have grown in the Way and see what you missed before. There is no path without stones.
> 
> 
> 
> In the actual practice of life, I totally agree.
> In a place of learning, which is what I am attempting to make this tiny corner of the internet, I disagree.
> The post I responded to is not the first that I've dealt with, just the first in public, so my response may have been seen as harsher than necessary.
> Questions and disagreements among people who are seriously interested are welcome, sarcasm and bullcrap from people who aren't is not.
Click to expand...

*RS chided the thread and you responded in a petulant, pissy way, when you should have come back with mature humor. When called on it, your response was - it's OK in real life but not when I'm in my zen ivory tower. The two areas are not separate. You're discovering some basic techniques - that's good, but you have no idea what 'mind' is or how to control it. Any sensei would smack you in your moment, lest your practice devolve into a poseur's Fisher-Price zen to be worn on the sleeve.*


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## M.J

Very true, thank you for the advice.
My overzealous policing of this post is not for me, it's so others don't worry about sticking their neck out a little and sharing some ideas.
And Fisher-Price Zen it is. One has to start somewhere.


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## Tremoside

Hi M.J., Hi Everyone,

I was making a thread some time ago, those resources there may be useful for an overview.

https://slingshotforum.com/topic/39269-kyudo-for-catties/

I was practicing Kyudo style shooting for a few weeks then. My main issue was breathing. I do shoot better when I'm keeping my pace. Archery coaches making notes on shooting speed and dictate what fits best for the archer. My main concern was the struggle to find a breathing pattern that fits with the calming effect, but let me keep my own shooting speed that's faster by default. At those times I just could not make it work.

As this topic emerged again I'm trying to working on my general mental toughness (I mean a calming, flowing state that helps to deal with stress better). My approach is just practicing the calming breathe at this moment and put ii in work later by using it right before my shooting sessions.

Thanks for the valuable content folks! I do enjoy following it myself.

Cheers,

Mark


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## MOJAVE MO

Alfred E.M. said:


> M.J said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flipgun said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am quite interested in this thread an wish it to continue. But I have to note that the interaction between you and Renegade Shooter. It is not the way of Zen to reject Negative Energy or Facetiousness . It must be absorbed and considered (sifted, if you will) for the truth that may lay within. After meditation and you have discerned as best as you may the wheat from the chaff, then you put aside the chaff for consideration at a later date to sift again when you have grown in the Way and see what you missed before. There is no path without stones.
> 
> 
> 
> In the actual practice of life, I totally agree.
> In a place of learning, which is what I am attempting to make this tiny corner of the internet, I disagree.
> The post I responded to is not the first that I've dealt with, just the first in public, so my response may have been seen as harsher than necessary.
> Questions and disagreements among people who are seriously interested are welcome, sarcasm and bullcrap from people who aren't is not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *RS chided the thread and you responded in a petulant, pissy way, when you should have come back with mature humor. When called on it, your response was - it's OK in real life but not when I'm in my zen ivory tower. The two areas are not separate. You're discovering some basic techniques - that's good, but you have no idea what 'mind' is or how to control it. Any sensei would smack you in your moment, lest your practice devolve into a poseur's Fisher-Price zen to be worn on the sleeve.*
Click to expand...

That is a good photo!

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## MOJAVE MO

My Shin-ken Sling and my Shin-ken Target.

This and 8 rounds will be my kit. The brass bell would wake up 3 neighbors before I filled half of it with epoxy. Now it rings with a thudwack.

The hook was carved from a piece of walnut from my.......aww, we'll skip that part of the story for now. Altgough the hook is shallow enough to release from its hold upon contact from the steel ball it seeks. Shin-ken for me is a one-hit meditation in my slingsporting.
I will practice my Shin-ken on the 3rd Sunday of every month. 10meters to target. One shot every three to five minutes, maximum of 8 shots. At the first hit of my target. I will appreciate the moment in reflective meditation, and then go home. 
My bell will feel complete 12 times in 2019, that will be exciting. MM









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## M.J

One of the principal lessons of peace is to accept things for what they are, not be angry about what they aren't. Don't try to chop down a tree with a spoon or eat soup with an ax.
I was angry at the internet for being the internet, so the problem isn't the problem, the problem is my reaction to the problem. 
I generally don't like online life. I don't like snark, I don't like anonymity, and I don't like people saying things to a virtual person that they wouldn't say to an actual person.
But that's the internet.
This forum is my only use of social media because I'm not a very social person in real life. I make friends through common interests and don't get to know people very well and don't let them know me. My behavior online is the same.
That's me.
I've been trying to do the work outlined in this post but I get derailed by thinking what I'm going to say to you all about it. Thinking about posting about not thinking. 
I'm probably going to get quieter on here and it's not because I'm mad, it's because it's a distraction and I have stuff I want to do in real life and I'm spending too much time here gabbing when I could be taking positive steps.
So, carry on if you want, I will be. I just won't be posting about it as much.


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## treefork




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## MakoPat

Dang! M. Mo... I gotta make one of those... then beat it into pieces.

I thank everyone for their contribution to this thread.

Be well and carry on now.


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## NaturalFork

I certainly need to research this stuff. The mental aspect hits me hard.


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## skropi

MJ, in reality not many updates are needed here. Everyone that is interested in working on other aspects of shooting, be it the mental part, the physical, or a combination, be it kyuodo, Kyudo like, or something else but with a similar approach, doesn't need to update daily, but only when he feels that he has achieved something or he has something to share that isn't already shared! 
You are right in not wanting to make this thread a "serial", it doesn't have to be. Everyone that wants to try your way, or his unique way, is free to do it, and is free to ask for advice or opinions here anyway ????


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## Blue Raja

Mrs. Raja, a massage therapist, was kind enough to observe my shot sequence and breathing pattern. Her observations were very helpful. Part of my shot sequence is making sure that I have optimal wrist positioning. Something that I do not have to worry about in archery. Hopefully the wrist position will become automatic


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## RenegadeShooter

To much comfort weakens the mind and body. Rise above your critics.

No one can take away your desire to excel. Challenge your handicaps and shortcomings.

Start over every morning. Control your thoughts, control your day, control your destiny.

You win because you think you can. A kite rises against the wind.

Raise the bar for yourself. People despise what they do not understand.

Make the complicated simple.

Develop yourself to your fullest potential. Do not let the mob hold you back.

Every great achievement was once considered impossible.

Seek solitude to allow for growth.

Genius is knowing how to think differently from others.

Successful leaders inspire others to excel.

Be Open To New Ideas.


----------



## BushpotChef

Bill Hays said:


> Some time ago, there was a study done between two large Tae Kwon Do schools in South Korea... they conducted an interschool tournament for beginners - green belt... old ranking system, 10th - 7th gup.
> The only thing was, one of the schools had way to many white belts, so they simply put yellow, orange and green belts on most of their white belts and told them to act like green belts, do what they've seen green belts do... the other school kept it's ranks as they were.
> 
> It was noted that during the tournament almost every senior belt, whether they were a real senior belt or not, won almost every fight... it didn't matter if both were actually white belts, with the same amount of experience... the one who ACTED like the senior belt won the match.
> 
> Now, extrapolate... use that same concept with slingshots...
> 
> Study the affectations of someone who is a great shot... keep how they move, their posture, stance, draw, how they aim... how they release, what they do afterwards... keep it all in your head.... now imagine yourself doing what you've seen... be as detailed and complete as possible in your recollection and mental reenactment...
> Once you have it all worked out... ACT like you're that person, including affectations of personality...
> Notice how all the sudden you're able to pretty much do much of what you imagined... now all it takes is more practice... but while you practice... ACT like what you want to be.
> 
> This same concept is used in many sports that require precision movement... imagination is one of the greatest assets of the top level athlete...
> You want to be like "Mike"... ACT like Mike
> 
> You want to be a Sniper... ACT like a Sniper
> 
> Then... once you've practiced enough... studied enough different examples of what you want and have gone through the process again and again... all of the sudden you will be what you wanted to be... but because each and every one of us is a little different, certain things will work better for one person more than another... so you'll naturally retain what works best for you and hopefully discard much of what hinders....
> Now, YOU become the person who others will emulate and absorb affectations from...
> You've taken from others, and now you're giving back... the cycle continues


Thanks Bill, you've restored my self-esteem! I thought I was just being silly copying every single thing you do & other highly skilled shooters do. I guess it's true what they say:

"Fake it till' you make it!" LOL 

I also wanted to ask, the other day I noticed you posted how samurai archers draw had a lot to do with the fact that they shot from horseback. Is this to say the side Style we use in archery with a long bow is done laterally because traditionally some samurai archers fired their bows from horseback? Im simplifyig because Im not sure how to word my question but I hope you understand what Im asking.

Sent using two thumbs and Tapatalk.


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## BushpotChef

skropi said:


> I don't know guys. Today I had an accident, didn't got hurt much, but was commissioned to the hospital, and generally had 7 hours of torture till I got home.
> I am home, I have a headache, I am dehydrated and generally upset, and.....I am nailing my targets! This normally illogical, but I believe that me, taking into account my breathing, does help a lot.
> Yeah, I relax, I do my little personal ritual, as I dont Follow Kyudo to the letter, just the mentality of it, and I am accurate in this less than ideal situation!
> I am about to cry guys, first of all because I am still really upset, but mostly because what I wanted, to be able to be consistent no matter the circumstances, is coming near, by having a specific mindset, correct breathing, and ritualizing my shooting!
> I love you all!


*serotonin flux*

WE LOVE YOU TOO SKROPI! KEEP IT UP BUD! LOL

Sent using two thumbs and Tapatalk.


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## BushpotChef

I just gapped a chain link fence and sent a grackle into the next life with a .38 steel from about 30' off at a 15° downward incline. Neck shot.

Everything leading up to that shot was made with an absolutely clear mind, from steady hands and with a perfect release. In the words of my dad, "It was the sort of shot that makes you say to yourself out loud, 'That ain't gonna happen again for a *long* while'."

This thread is awesome. Have a good one fellas.

Sent using two thumbs and Tapatalk.


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## skarrd

i have tried both inhale on the draw and exhale till lungs are emptied to release,which seems to work well for long draw bands and tubes,for the shorter [faster?] dands and tubes i breathe in as i i draw and hold it when i release,sometimes ,trying to find a balance between the two.Love this Dojo as i am learning a lot more about Zen and Positivity.Thank You to all here


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## Bill Hays

BushpotChef said:


> Bill Hays said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some time ago, there was a study done between two large Tae Kwon Do schools in South Korea... they conducted an interschool tournament for beginners - green belt... old ranking system, 10th - 7th gup.
> The only thing was, one of the schools had way to many white belts, so they simply put yellow, orange and green belts on most of their white belts and told them to act like green belts, do what they've seen green belts do... the other school kept it's ranks as they were.
> 
> It was noted that during the tournament almost every senior belt, whether they were a real senior belt or not, won almost every fight... it didn't matter if both were actually white belts, with the same amount of experience... the one who ACTED like the senior belt won the match.
> 
> Now, extrapolate... use that same concept with slingshots...
> 
> Study the affectations of someone who is a great shot... keep how they move, their posture, stance, draw, how they aim... how they release, what they do afterwards... keep it all in your head.... now imagine yourself doing what you've seen... be as detailed and complete as possible in your recollection and mental reenactment...
> Once you have it all worked out... ACT like you're that person, including affectations of personality...
> Notice how all the sudden you're able to pretty much do much of what you imagined... now all it takes is more practice... but while you practice... ACT like what you want to be.
> 
> This same concept is used in many sports that require precision movement... imagination is one of the greatest assets of the top level athlete...
> You want to be like "Mike"... ACT like Mike
> 
> You want to be a Sniper... ACT like a Sniper
> 
> Then... once you've practiced enough... studied enough different examples of what you want and have gone through the process again and again... all of the sudden you will be what you wanted to be... but because each and every one of us is a little different, certain things will work better for one person more than another... so you'll naturally retain what works best for you and hopefully discard much of what hinders....
> Now, YOU become the person who others will emulate and absorb affectations from...
> You've taken from others, and now you're giving back... the cycle continues
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Bill, you've restored my self-esteem! I thought I was just being silly copying every single thing you do & other highly skilled shooters do. I guess it's true what they say:
> 
> "Fake it till' you make it!" LOL
> 
> I also wanted to ask, the other day I noticed you posted how samurai archers draw had a lot to do with the fact that they shot from horseback. Is this to say the side Style we use in archery with a long bow is done laterally because traditionally some samurai archers fired their bows from horseback? Im simplifyig because Im not sure how to word my question but I hope you understand what Im asking.
> 
> Sent using two thumbs and Tapatalk.
Click to expand...

Copy what works... use what works best for you.

Learn from as many as possible and eventually you will have a set of skills that's uniquely your own... and then people will use you as an example to emulate.

In Kyudo the bow has a short bottom and a long top... so you at first get a feeling of asymmetrical uneasiness... but you get used to it after a short while, just like almost everything else..

The bow is short on bottom because it was designed to be used by a mounted user... by having it long on top and short on the bottom, it combines the benefits of long bow with the utility of a short bow... So now you can have the speed of use of a short bow designed with a rider in mind (think Mongol short bow) with the longer draw and easier to gain power of the long bow.

The unique overhead draw style settling to the target came to be because it too was originally developed for use by a mounted soldier/Samurai....

BUT, as serendipity would have it, it just so happens that draw style also happens to help open up the chest allowing you to breath in more deeply... thus the draw style was then adapted for use by unmounted bowmen(people) as well.

Breathing properly is the first step in learning meditative movement... As a practitioner of slingshot do... or any martial art for that matter... it is helpful to maintain proper posture.... and in the beginning while practicing how to do it, close your eyes, imagine yourself in a tranquil setting (mine is a waterfall and a small pool) inhale through your nose, pushing your stomach out, don't raise your shoulders, just push your stomach out.... as the air enters your body, imagine it as a color, blue is almost always a good choice... imagine the blue color entering into your lungs, flowing and then filling your entire body... once you've filled up completely, exhale through your mouth... imagine the used air as the color red..... Exhale completely imagining all the poisons in your body leaving with the breath.... Once all is gone, wait a heartbeat, and then begin to inhale as you did before...

That is a brief description of mediation breathing... a slightly modified version, where you keep your eyes open and replace a place of tranquility with a target within the target, is basically how the kyudo practitioner breathes when engaged in shooting.


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## Tag

Great post MJ I had the privilege of watching a soft tip dart tournament that consisted of all people who were blind. Their only way to know where to throw the dart was instructed to them by a coach.


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## Blue Raja

Mrs. Raja's observation of the overhead draw, from her perspective as a massage therapist, is that it engages the rhomboid muscles so that you are not drawing with the arm muscles and stressing the neck muscles. When we taught archery back in the day, the other local coaches were able to recognize our students, because of their unique overhead draws.

When you raise the slingshot over your head, hold your arms at about a 30 degree angle away from your head and then move your arms in a circle towards your head, as you draw and lower to your shoulders. This should engage the back muscles.

I will attempt to post a video later.


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## M.J

For sure, Raja. It's one of the things mentioned repeatedly in ZAA that the Master could draw even the heaviest bow with relaxed arm muscles. Levering on the skeleton, as it were.


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## BushpotChef

skarrd said:


> i have tried both inhale on the draw and exhale till lungs are emptied to release,which seems to work well for long draw bands and tubes,for the shorter [faster?] dands and tubes i breathe in as i i draw and hold it when i release,sometimes ,trying to find a balance between the two.Love this Dojo as i am learning a lot more about Zen and Positivity.Thank You to all here


Me as well. I always prefer to release on the exhale, but thats just me. Many thanks to you as well skropi for inspiring this thread.

Lots to benefit from here. 

Sent using two thumbs and Tapatalk.


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## Bill Hays

Blue Raja said:


> Mrs. Raja's observation of the overhead draw, from her perspective as a massage therapist, is that it engages the rhomboid muscles so that you are not drawing with the arm muscles and stressing the neck muscles. When we taught archery back in the day, the other local coaches were able to recognize our students, because of their unique overhead draws.
> 
> When you raise the slingshot over your head, hold your arms at about a 30 degree angle away from your head and then move your arms in a circle towards your head, as you draw and lower to your shoulders. This should engage the back muscles.
> 
> I will attempt to post a video later.


That is also true... but like I said earlier, the original purpose was so that you could draw while mounted and not have the interference of the saddle, reigns, leg and whatever armor might be in the way... yet like so many discoveries and applications originally used for one purpose, it becomes useful for so much more.


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## MikeyLikesIt

I never realized this! I've got a bow that's a little too much poundage for me to handle. I had always wondered why they drew the bow back like that. The horseback link, along with utilizing back muscles (for ground troops) makes perfect sense. Will you all be incorporating this as part of your Shin-ken methodology? I don't know how much poundage most people's SS are, but I can't imagine it would be like a bow. If you are adopting this method to draw back, is it more about developing the mindset, like a physical ritual before the action to help focus your mind?


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## M.J

I've been using heavier bands (double 3/4-1/2" Simple-Shot black ) and 1/2" steel so that I can feel the draw all the way through, which helps me focus on the act of shooting. 
I could still easily draw these bands the regular way, but the kyudo style draw really does make the weight seem like a lot less.


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## Blue Raja

Bill Hays said:


> Blue Raja said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs. Raja's observation of the overhead draw, from her perspective as a massage therapist, is that it engages the rhomboid muscles so that you are not drawing with the arm muscles and stressing the neck muscles. When we taught archery back in the day, the other local coaches were able to recognize our students, because of their unique overhead draws.
> When you raise the slingshot over your head, hold your arms at about a 30 degree angle away from your head and then move your arms in a circle towards your head, as you draw and lower to your shoulders. This should engage the back muscles.
> I will attempt to post a video later.
> 
> 
> 
> That is also true... but like I said earlier, the original purpose was so that you could draw while mounted and not have the interference of the saddle, reigns, leg and whatever armor might be in the way... yet like so many discoveries and applications originally used for one purpose, it becomes useful for so much more.
Click to expand...

Agreed! And thanks for your observations.

Although slingshots are post-firearms, they are a stored energy technology very similar to archery. We are rediscovering techniques that were developed over centuries and then neglected post-firearms. Rediscovering and mastering these techniques add to our skills.


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## BushpotChef

I feel slingshot shooting also has the slight air of kung fu about it with its 'soft way' & 'hard way'. Id say long draw, side style precision shooting would be akin to the soft way & active draw, instinctive style shooting compares to the hard way.

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## RenegadeShooter

The first and most important lesson in karate is the stance. The stance has not been addressed here yet other than a brief mention. Taking a firm, solid stance is the focal point to allow all other aspects of the perfect shot to fall in place. First making sure of a firm and calculated stance is tantamount to turning the cap around in Over the Top. Karate students spend many hours practicing and perfecting their stance. Yet I notice that stance is not given top billing in slingshot shooting discussions.Learning to perfect the stance can lead to similar tactics to perfect ammo placement in the pouch, gripping both the frame and the loaded pouch, pull, release and follow through.

Has anyone studied and come up with the perfect Slingshot Shooting Stance(s)?


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## BushpotChef

RenegadeShooter said:


> The first and most important lesson in karate is the stance. The stance has not been addressed here yet other than a brief mention. Taking a firm, solid stance is the focal point to allow all other aspects of the perfect shot to fall in place. First making sure of a firm and calculated stance is tantamount to turning the cap around in Over the Top. Karate students spend many hours practicing and perfecting their stance. Yet I notice that stance is not given top billing in slingshot shooting discussions.Learning to perfect the stance can lead to similar tactics to perfect ammo placement in the pouch, gripping both the frame and the loaded pouch, pull, release and follow through.
> 
> Has anyone studied and come up with the perfect Slingshot Shooting Stance(s)?


Im a karate man myself so I took solid stance as a given LOL.

*assumes rigid horse stance* 

Sent using two thumbs and Tapatalk.


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## RenegadeShooter

Yes Chef you took a solid stance as a given. But what does a solid slingshot stance look like. How does the new shooter without a karate background learn and practice the slingshot shooter's stance. A good release is also a given as is holding the frame level and straight. But each of these elements needs to be learned and practiced correctly. Practice does not make perfect as is often taught.

Perfect Practice makes Perfect.

I once was told that a Black Belt is one who has mastered the basics. Same holds true for slingshot shooting. And that mastery begins with taking the stance.

One could make a solid argument for teaching slingshot shooting just as karate students are taught. First learning a proper stance followed by proper draw and release. Each taught by a series of calculated exercises designed to teach a perfect stance, draw, release etc.

With that in mind there could be a series of instructions and ranking levels similar to the belt ranking used in karate and other forms of martial arts. Or as Bill Hays points out, making slingshot shooting just one of the forms of weapons training within the martial arts.


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## BushpotChef

Oh youre absolutely correct I was half joking! I would say learning a solid stance is literally the first step down slingshot avenue in terms of going from pop bottles to pop bottle caps !


RenegadeShooter said:


> Yes Chef you took a solid stance as a given. But what does a solid slingshot stance look like. How does the new shooter without a karate background learn and practice the slingshot shooter's stance. A good release is also a given as is holding the frame level and straight. But each of these elements needs to be learned and practiced correctly. Practice does not make perfect as is often taught.
> 
> Perfect Practice makes Perfect.
> 
> I once was told that a Black Belt is one who has mastered the basics. Same holds true for slingshot shooting. And that mastery begins with taking the stance.
> 
> One could make a solid argument for teaching slingshot shooting just as karate students are taught. First learning a proper stance followed by proper draw and release. Each taught by a series of calculated exercises designed to teach a perfect stance, draw, release etc.
> 
> With that in mind there could be a series of instructions and ranking levels similar to the belt ranking used in karate and other forms of martial arts. Or as Bill Hays points out, making slingshot shooting just one of the forms of weapons training within the martial arts.


Sent using two thumbs and Tapatalk.


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## Bill Hays

RenegadeShooter said:


> Yes Chef you took a solid stance as a given. But what does a solid slingshot stance look like. How does the new shooter without a karate background learn and practice the slingshot shooter's stance. A good release is also a given as is holding the frame level and straight. But each of these elements needs to be learned and practiced correctly. Practice does not make perfect as is often taught.
> 
> Perfect Practice makes Perfect.
> 
> I once was told that a Black Belt is one who has mastered the basics. Same holds true for slingshot shooting. And that mastery begins with taking the stance.
> 
> One could make a solid argument for teaching slingshot shooting just as karate students are taught. First learning a proper stance followed by proper draw and release. Each taught by a series of calculated exercises designed to teach a perfect stance, draw, release etc.
> 
> With that in mind there could be a series of instructions and ranking levels similar to the belt ranking used in karate and other forms of martial arts. Or as Bill Hays points out, making slingshot shooting just one of the forms of weapons training within the martial arts.


Stances are important, that is for sure... but I'm kind of thinking most who are participating in this discussion already have a foundation, and even the walls.... what they're working on now is the ceiling... and how high they can make it!

BUT, that is a mere assumption... if one really does want to work on the basics... which every martial arts class always starts with, no matter how advanced the practitioners... then maybe seeing how I try to break it down so it's easy to understand might be helpful:


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## skropi

@Bill Hays
Maybe we are taking some things for granted, so we assume the most simple basics are understood. I agree with you, at least for me, my aim is not to be hitting tin cans consistently, but lighting matches  This thread, as you correctly pointed out, isn't a tutorial, it is a way to look at slingshooting differently, and try to achieve the mental fortitude required to get better and better! 
The mental part proves to be the hardest to conquer, but it is doable!


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## Royleonard

10,000 strikes =one strike=one life maybe


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## Ordo

Something I learned from playing golf is to commit to the shot.
It's better to commit to the shot in a positive and assertive way than doubt.

*I'll do it *is a much better inner motto than* I hope I can do it...*

May be you miss nevertheless, but you will mis with a lot of authority.


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## skropi

Ordo.....I am 101% confident that I'll hit the target before each shot, no matter the target. But I am not sure that such overconfidence is really beneficial. I really hope that it is though ????


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## Ordo

101%? My God, I'm 13.5% confident. :banghead:


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## treefork

The following are the words of Bill Hays in another topic . Similar to what I do with some differences .

" When it's difficult to concentrate, or if it's hard to stay on target because of other things... having a mantra consisting of basic steps to help center yourself can really help out.

If I find myself unable to concentrate or if my nerves are simply to jangled to shoot well, I go through these steps in my head and try to follow with my body:

1) Look at target, bore eyes through the center...

2) Take stance while targeting with eyes...

3) Load pouch taking care to center the ammo while breathing in, pushing stomach out to completely fill the diaphram with air...

4) Begin the draw low, pulling back all the way a little before anchoring or finding the pouch holding hand's hold point, while relaxing the diaphram slowly and under control...

5) Target should be a little above where Point of Aim and Point of Impact intersect, so raise to center of target while holding breath.... If there is to much shake, bounce up and down slightly taking control of it, if there's no shake or very little, simply release when everything is lined up and it appears you're on target...

6) The release should be as smooth and under control as possible, as Tex says "release like you're holding a butterfly".

7) After release, hold slingshot in place for about a second and then drop it to your side in a relaxed manner.

If the shot went where I wanted it to go... then I keep the same stance if shooting the same target... if it's a different target, I change up the stance to compensate.... then I simply repeat the steps...

In the past, I have even gone so far as to make a recording of myself going through the steps and then repeating it for a whole shooting session... but now I've got it all pretty well memorized and can do it without to much effort or really thinking about it....

BUT, if I find myself simply unable to center on the target, and rest is not an option... then I do find that making myself go through the steps does seem to help. "


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## treefork

Here is the entire topic :

https://slingshotforum.com/topic/113620-the-bad-day-myth/


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## skropi

Ordo said:


> 101%? My God, I'm 13.5% confident. :banghead:


Ehm, I am 101% confident, not accurate ????


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## RenegadeShooter

As Bill pointed out, all martial arts classes begin with a warmup and review of the basics with a set of drills to keep the basics finely tuned before moving into advanced teachings. Does anyone incorporate such a drill in their daily slingshot shooting? Or do you just load up the pouch and start shooting? I thought about this when I began shooting this morning. I realized that I had no idea what drills of basics I could put myself through that would emphasize stance, draw, pouch release, aiming etc. Sure maybe a good place to start might be keeping my karate bo handy to use as my aiming stick to get my shooting stance right as Bill's video points out.

What next?

Shoot at a Can > Shoot at a Bottle Top or Spinner > Try yo cut a Card and Light a Match.

Shoot from 10 feet then 20 feet followed by 30 feet then 40 and 50 feet.

Shoot OTT followed by TTF then PFS


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## MikeyLikesIt

Ordo said:


> 101%? My God, I'm 13.5% confident. :banghead:


Same here. I usually set up and say, "I hope this doesn't go flying into the neighbors yard!" I definitely need to work on the mental aspect.


----------



## RenegadeShooter

MikeyLikesIt said:


> Ordo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 101%? My God, I'm 13.5% confident. :banghead:
> 
> 
> 
> Same here. I usually set up and say, "I hope this doesn't go flying into the neighbors yard!" I definitely need to work on the mental aspect.
Click to expand...

Get that pouch grip and release down along with always holding the frame straight. How do you do that? It's all in the mind.


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## skarrd

still working on the different types of breathing/drawing/releasing aspects others use so far exhaling and release still works best for me,as far as stance i learned that from my father when he taught me how to shoot rifles and shotguns,a lonnnnngggg time ago,it is still the same with SS's,i am actually improving with my PFS shooting,hit wise,as well as regular .everyone on here has been extremely informative and helpful,so thanks to all participating,i guess an old dog can learn new tricks.


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## Blue Raja

Beginner's Guide to Deliberate Practice

https://jamesclear.com/beginners-guide-deliberate-practice


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## RenegadeShooter

Some good stuff in that article. Thanks for sharing it.

While regular practice might include mindless repetitions, deliberate practice requires focused attention and is conducted with the specific goal of improving performance.

The greatest challenge of deliberate practice is to remain focused. In the beginning, showing up and putting in your reps is the most important thing. But after a while we begin to carelessly overlook small errors and miss daily opportunities for improvement.

Mindless activity is the enemy of deliberate practice. The danger of practicing the same thing again and again is that progress becomes assumed. Too often, we assume we are getting better simply because we are gaining experience. In reality, we are merely reinforcing our current habits-not improving them.

Deliberate practice always follows the same pattern: break the overall process down into parts, identify your weaknesses, test new strategies for each section, and then integrate your learning into the overall process.

The second effective feedback system is coaching. One consistent finding across disciplines is that coaches are often essential for sustaining deliberate practice. In many cases, it is nearly impossible to both perform a task and measure your progress at the same time. Good coaches can track your progress, find small ways to improve, and hold you accountable to delivering your best effort each day.

WHERE DO WE FIND A SLINGSHOT SHOOTING COACH WITHOUT MAKING COUNTLESS VIDEOS AND POSTING THEM. NO ONE WOULD DO THIS IN THE PROFESSIONAL SPORTS WORLD. WE NEED A RIGHT THERE IN THE MOMENT REAL LIFE COACH TO PULL THIS ONE OFF.


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## M.J

Very interesting article, thanks for the link :thumbsup:


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## MikeyLikesIt

Great read BR. Very interesting.


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## Bill Hays

This video may be helpful in the journey... I made it for Randroid, but it applicable for many others as well.

Just master the bench rest... ability to hit a 4cm target 10 times in a row... then move on to bench rest, raise and shoot phase, master that the same way with 10 hits in a row on a 4cm target... then move on to free hold all the way...

You'll surprise youself!

The really cool thing about this technique is how it helps with your hold and release... by separating the components it makes you acutely aware of being super smooth and relaxed.


----------



## Hulla Baloo

I wrote a verse in this thread, early on, well before Bill became Sensei, that was deleted. It went to motivation; I don't think the OP understood that at the time. Sad. He made no attempt to comprehend the meaning of the verse, just deleted it... No PM. No nothing.

From someone who was once a moderator here, Thanx...

Shallow, for motivation is the key to everything. Wanna see concentration? Observe a three-day-hungry cougar:










All kinds of tangents available on a DISCUSSION board MJ. Avail yourself of them. May be associating martial arts with slingshooting is counterproductive...

Bill's good because it's his business to be good. Same with Nathan.

Volp would have owned you. :stickpoke:


----------



## Hulla Baloo

This was the verse, is it any more viable now?

So many varieties of sophisticated thinking

Disciplines galore have PT Barnum winking

Hussey's teacher taught without the luxury of linking

Hunger drove his hunt, and made legend of his plinking


----------



## Alfred E.M.

*I've been missing you HB ... still liking that bed?*


----------



## Hulla Baloo

A Godsend Ward, seriously. Mrs. Hulla's doing yoga again...


----------



## Bill Hays

Copied from another thread, but added here... because it is so very relevant to practice in any gym, dojang or dojo!

Typically, in almost any endeavor, there is a period of improvement followed by a plateau... it's at this point critical decisions have to be made. For if you back off practicing you're liable to backslide and regress... So coming up with ideas to make practice fun and interesting are key to continued advancement.

Me, I've gone through many plateaus and have also seemingly reached new peaks as well... and part of it is not being so rigid on myself... practice EVERY day... but some days I do it very different than other days.. Instead of shooting at the same targets over and over again, I'll go out to the woods and just shoot at anything that looks like it needs to be shot and is a challenge... one of my favorites is hanging cans on paracord all over the place at many different distances and heights... another is hanging very small targets at longer distances... putting little wood blocks (1.5" cubes) out on the picnic table... and so forth and so on...

Once you get a little confidence and are more advanced, moving targets are nice... shoot tethered balloons and then some out of the air... break up the routine and make it fun!

Also, I tend to do very short practice sessions, but do them several times in a day.


----------



## Bill Hays

This is also pertinent to the whole discussion:

When I was 16, I was taller and stronger than most kids my age, so I grew tired of competing in tournaments fighting against "kids"... I always seemed to intimidate them and because of that would win most matches by merely "going over there and beating them up".

So I talked with my instructor, and told him I was getting bored with the whole tournament scene and was thinking about quitting.... He, liking the fact that almost all our competitors donated their trophies and medals to the school for public display, tried to talk me out of it... but I was just fed up... Soooo, he said I'll be fighting in the adult division in the Southwest Open and that I should get ready then.

I practiced hard, sparred everybody I could and even did pretty well against my number one sparring partner and friend, who was a few years older than me and was taller and stronger and well... (He, "Slick" was already a state champion and nationally ranked in Tae Kwon Do)

Tournament time finally came around... and boy did I feel all kinds of ready!

When we got there they divided all of us up by age and height... if you were over 18 and taller than 6' you were in one group, shorter than 6' in another group... over 39 years in another group... and so on and so forth... I lied and told them I was in group one.

When fight time happened they lined us all up, all 40 or so, and told us the rules... in short: punches to the face permitted, kicks to the groin permitted, take downs permitted, no kicking against the joints, no biting, no disrespect and if you bleed... you lose!

All of that was quite different than the kid's division, so I kind of started to get nervous...

I witnessed fight after fight... these guys seemed to be serious... hitting hard... knocking each other down... wow!

My name was called and upon entering the ring, I looked at who I was to fight... and there was this huge guy over there... at least 40 pounds bigger and looked like about half a foot taller, plus he outranked me by a couple of stripes as well....

Did I make a mistake? Did my mouth write a check my butt couldn't handle?

Oh crap, they're calling us to attention, this is about to happen...!?!

Bow to each other.... Fighting stance... SHIJAK!!!

My heart was in my stomach as I stepped to the center of the ring... I hesitated... he moved, a skipping front kick??? NO! it's a feint, reverse punch right to the nose...

BREAK!... call for point...

I could feel the break... but weirdly no blood... yet... no pain, that's odd... he didn't hit any harder than my Dad does when we're "playing around"... Suddenly all fear left me...

I punch in the face is a huge deficit to overcome... I've got to be smart

ATTENTION, bow to each other, fighting stance.... Shijak!

This time... completely clear headed, under control.... I went to the center mark and when he came to me I made myself wobble a little as I shifted my to my front leg... making me look vulnerable and easy...

"Goliath" dropped his guard and stepped up... far to confident, ready to punch my lights out... for just as he stepped into my range I swung a perfect back leg round kick to the side of his head.... instant knock out!

BREAK!!!! The center judge/referee jumped between us to protect him... ushered me back to my side... I won the match... yay!

Ended up, my nose started bleeding in the next match so I didn't even place in the tournament.... but it was one of the most memorable experiences of my whole tournament experience.

Moral of the story... quite often those that seem sick, under the weather, or otherwise impaired... well you tend to let your guard down and feel like you can "take them" if you want... but by you doing that it actually gives them an advantage...

Moral number 2 of the story... your worst fears can come true, especially if you react as if you fear them...

Moral number 3.... FEAR is the mind killer

Moral number 4... He who hesitates is lost

There's more that can be drawn from the story... but that will do for now


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## Randroid

M.J said:


> This post and idea grew out of Skropi's post about the mental aspect of slingshot shooting. In the course of that discussion Ordo linked to a book called "Zen in the Art of Archery", which discusses the Japanese martial art of kyudo or Way of the Bow.
> Kyudo has several set protocols for shooting which are followed in a slow, meditative style. Like all other martial arts, it's about "correctness", not accuracy. A more far-eastern approach of focusing on the act, not the result. This is not to say that accuracy is not important, just that accuracy comes from correct shooting, not the other way around. Accuracy is not the goal. It is a style of active meditation that uses the Bow as a medium.
> Anyway.
> I would like to start practicing this style with the slingshot, since the mechanics translate almost directly. I'll be using the same breath techniques, same overhead draw style, same stance, and same follow through as a kyudo archer. If anyone would like to join me and post their thoughts, their setup, whatever, then this can be our online dojo.
> Just to be clear, I'm not a practitioner of any martial art, just an interested party. I think I've learned enough over the last 8 years of shooting slingshot and the last couple years studying books on Zen practice as it relates to martial arts that I am ready to step foot on this path and maybe help others who aren't as experienced.
> This post isn't to debate the merit of this approach, which will always come down to the individual. Replies along the lines of "well, that's not how I like to shoot" or "why don't you just go shoot a can" are not welcome and will not last long. I try to never abuse my moderator powers, but this thread is about encouragement. If it's not your thing that's totally fine, just move along.
> I'll be posting my thoughts, videos, and practice guidelines here. In the meantime I encourage you to Google "kyudo " and read up on it and maybe watch some vids. If someone could link to the pdf of "Zen in the Art of Archery " in this post I'd appreciate it. I'm not so good with the technology...


 I have read extensively Zen literature off and on for the past 40+ years and have practiced meditation , again, off and on. The first book on Zen I read was Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind by Shunryu Suzuki. In the prologue he says: "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few ". At the conclusion of the prologue he States: "This is the real secret of the arts: always be a beginner".


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## Bill Hays

In light of recent interest in Kyudo and slingshots, I feel this thread is relevant to review


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