# A Critical Question



## CornDawg (Sep 27, 2015)

Let's say a member posts photos of a slingshot that you think looks like a turd- literally. So much so, that if you saw it in your yard you'd only touch it with a shovel. But the comments the member receives are all complimentary...

On a forum like this, is it better to follow the adage, "If you don't have something nice to say, better to say nothing at all," or does the maker have a right to know that some percentage of enthusiasts may think the creation resembles excrement? Does honest criticism become cruelty in the telling, or in the substance of what is told?


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## pult421 (Aug 13, 2015)

Our worst critic.. should be ourselves.


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## MikmaqWarrior (May 12, 2014)

Personally, I would appreciate constructive criticism instead of patronising compliments...As long as it isn't a dogpile of insults.
That being said, I haven't really seen anything that was as bad as you explained....so I'm hoping it wasn't one of mine...lol...You know the saying "every group of friends has one asshole...If you can't pick them out it's probably you?" lol

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## CornDawg (Sep 27, 2015)

I dunno Pulty, do you trust self-diagnosis?


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## CornDawg (Sep 27, 2015)

Trying to keep it hypothetical Mikmaq, even though you could plainly see specks of raisin and partially digested peanut butter within the body of the fecie/fork.


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## pult421 (Aug 13, 2015)

I trust MY criticism towards myself.. people can build and be great.. but there is always room for improvement.. unless someone makes a slingshot that is jet fueled with mini guns attached and everytime a shell drops you hear an eagle screech murica!!.. i would say we can all improve.


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## MikmaqWarrior (May 12, 2014)

CornDawg said:


> Trying to keep it hypothetical Mikmaq, even though you could plainly see specks of raisin and partially digested peanut butter within the body of the fecie/fork.


Well...ok.... Hypothetically speaking...If I had seen a "deuce" slingshot on here, I would have to take in some consideration on the builder before commenting...Example: if it was a first build, age...etc...I know when I first started building, mine were so plain and basic that I was afraid to post...But, mine have gotten much better...And I think my confidence got stronger because of the kind words of the other members.

However, i teach guitar, and if a student is definately not going to benefit from lessons (absolutely no rhythm, tone deaf, etc) then I am honest with them....They usually don't like to hear it, but it is the right thing to do..

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## MikmaqWarrior (May 12, 2014)

CornDawg said:


> Trying to keep it hypothetical Mikmaq, even though you could plainly see specks of raisin and partially digested peanut butter within the body of the fecie/fork.


Great, now I'm craving a peanut butter, raisin, maple syrup sandwich!!


MikmaqWarrior said:


> CornDawg said:
> 
> 
> > Trying to keep it hypothetical Mikmaq, even though you could plainly see specks of raisin and partially digested peanut butter within the body of the fecie/fork.
> ...


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## MikmaqWarrior (May 12, 2014)

This is a great question, CornDawg.... It's a difficult topic

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## Tremoside (Jul 17, 2013)

Personally I think there is way too much stress around everyday life and slingshot shooting is a safe place to hide away from the pressure. Some builders and shooters are more competitive than the other, some just want to have a better day than usual. I do prefer to stay positive and constructive.

As I'm watching the forums if someone stays long enough and interested in the slingshot stuff he/she will smoothly pick up skill, taste and knowledge. For them the key to improvement is a clear vision of themselves, to understand what they may switch up to go forward. It depends on their own pace and not really our dictated tempo. Sometimes a too harsh critique is just confuses the author.

Are there less sophisticated works? Yes, but starting and improving is slow.

I think showing good samples, inspiration and clean talk is more valuable than forcing or pushing someone even if the cause is good or obvious.

Interesting question, thanks for the chance to speak up.


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## bigdh2000 (Feb 9, 2015)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

CornDawg said:


> Let's say a member posts photos of a slingshot that you think looks like a turd- literally. So much so, that if you saw it in your yard you'd only touch it with a shovel. But the comments the member receives are all complimentary...
> 
> On a forum like this, is it better to follow the adage, "If you don't have something nice to say, better to say nothing at all," or does the maker have a right to know that some percentage of enthusiasts may think the creation resembles excrement? Does honest criticism become cruelty in the telling, or in the substance of what is told?


I think basic wisdom can be applied . The Golden Rule : Do unto others has you would have done to you .


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## Can-Opener (May 11, 2013)

I think positive reinforcement is the way to go  Unless the slingshot presents an obvious danger to the shooter. Then a gentle comment that it poses a possible safety hazard is warranted.  However I have seen reasonable safety concerns completely disregarded by makers so what is a good hearted critic to do  It is a difficult situation


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## pult421 (Aug 13, 2015)

Can opener has a point.. the safety issue. Gotta call that out.


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

Never forget one of the great rules in life: My turd is fascinating, yours' is just a turd.

I have just embarked on my seventh year here on the slingshot forum and I have seen a lot of slingshots. I have also made a lot of slingshots and I have learned that compared to the SSOTM entries, my best slingshots and most of the slingshots on the forum have a bit of the turd about them.

The great thing about slingshots is the feeling of accomplishment in having finished one and then gone out and shot it. Most of them are not works of art they are just a way to sling a rock or ball and reach out and touch the target from a distance - and they don't have to be pretty to do that.

I try to limit my "negative" comments to things that might cause harm to the shooter - bad attachment methods etc.

winnie


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## brucered (Dec 30, 2015)

At the end of the day, even the turds shoot just as well as the SSOTM winners, in the right shooters hands.

That said, I try to avoid handling turds and try to avoid commenting on them.


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## CornDawg (Sep 27, 2015)

Wouldn't you want to know, as a maker, though? I'll stipulate to the necessity of the safety call, but to intentionally avoid commenting on aesthetic quality shortchanges the poster a little I think, especially on a forum that awards monthly and yearly prizes for such things... He's denied any authenticity regarding our perception. In this instance the maker may never have been exposed to a fresh, glistening pile, as odd as that may seem. He may be a vegetarian, or never owned large dogs, or, he may be just too close to the trees to see the forest.


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## brucered (Dec 30, 2015)

It's a tough call.

If a new guys posts a pic of a frame he is happy and proud of and gets comments about the lack of sanding, rough edges, lop sided shape etc, the guy posting looks like a turd to many. Even though, we are all thinking it.

In this day and age, people take offense to pretty much any blunt and direct comment. They are conditioned to not take criticism and think everyone and everything should be RaRaRa, even though that's not reality.

I've gotten in plenty of trouble online for calling it like I see it. Sometimes it's easier just to avoid commenting but sometimes it can't be resisted. If you post on a public forum or social media outlet, be it a review or showing off, you have to be able to accept the good and bad comments.


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## pult421 (Aug 13, 2015)

Yea i hear ya cdawg.. i personally never posted until i knew i made something decent. But i always compared my work to people like art of weapons and joerg and gkj starting out. Then it went from them to the us builders like knapp hays Nathan eric etc. If it wasnt somewhat like theirs.. i wasnt happy. Still its not near their work. But im gettin there. With help and reference from other builders!! If ya gotta let them know.. maybe do it in a pm. That way they dont feel offended or put on the spot!


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## brucered (Dec 30, 2015)

You have received a new "Turd Mail" from @CornDawg


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## CornDawg (Sep 27, 2015)

lmao


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## pult421 (Aug 13, 2015)

In fact... you can wait for a chance to help.. one time inconvenience went and posted and said something about it not being exactly how he wanted it. I messaged him. And told him how i went about evening forks on a natty and little tricks with the dremel. It was because he showed interest. And ill try and help anyone who wants help ya know. Ya never really stop learning.. and you should also never stop teaching.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Honestly - If I posted something - it would be for a group of peers to appreciate. Though I wouldn't mind constructive criticism - I'm a designer so thick skinned with regards to that. However - if I asked for feedback I'd expect decent useful feedback and not a tirade as to how incompetent/turdlike something is... does not help anyone - can't grow.

Also one man's treasure... so I'd say if you think it looks positively not cool - rather keep quiet - unless asked for specifically.

And honestly I get where you're coming from, however praise will keep noobs interested, positive constructive input will help them grow, and thats never a bad thing.

A lot of folks get pretty sensitive about stuff they've made, so you have to be super careful about where you tread.


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

What's the point of criticism? Too often it's not about the maker but the criticizer. If it shoots who cares what it looks like.

I have some pretty high end fly fishing gear. The only advantage it brings me is when I am standing in the stream and not catching anything, I can look down at my pole and say to myself "my, that's a pretty rod".

That's it. No other advantage. I say let people enjoy their creations unless they are specifically asking for feedback.

winnie


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## brucered (Dec 30, 2015)

Winnie said:


> What's the point of criticism? Too often it's not about the maker but the criticizer.... I say let people enjoy their creations unless they are specifically asking for feedback.
> winnie


That is a good point.

But the moment they say "What do you think?", it's fair game.


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## Clang! (Jan 16, 2017)

Constructive criticism, diplomatically presented, is appropriate. Bear a gear snob or a tool isn't. If you're not sure where the line is between them, consider this: Would you say it to your elementary school aged kid?


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Clang! said:


> Constructive criticism, diplomatically presented, is appropriate. Bear a gear snob or a tool isn't. If you're not sure where the line is between them, consider this: Would you say it to your elementary school aged kid?


Actually that is another point I was going to make. You're not sure how old the posters are half the time. They may be way younger than you'd think.


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## Alfred E.M. (Jul 5, 2014)

*Truthfully, this thread stinks.*

*Everyone has an ego, feelings and sensitivities. I don't believe a blanket policy applies, it has to be on an individual basis. Generally, be kind when you can and quiet if you can't.*

*Yet perceptions change - when Truth posted his Sling Bow with a bayonet attached, I laughed as much as anyone and I'm sure his feelings took a hit. Now I see a certain creativity in the experiment and I laugh for a better reason.*

*@Winnie - *If it shoots who cares what it looks like. *I think we're hard wired to make things attractive and not settle for any ole POS. *

*Dawg, you do come up with some good topics.*


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm not sure that we are all hard wired to make things especially attractive and not settle "for any old POS". I, for instance, am a dentist. All day long I have to worry about precision and minutia. The last thing I want is a hobby that requires extra attention to detail. My slingshot is, by others' standards, nothing fancy. It is plain and unadorned, and yet I am content with it.

There have been plenty of times through the years that I have headed off into the woods with only a set of bands and have cut a fork and banded it up to have fun. These slingshots have been "ugly" but very satisfying. There have also been a number of times others have seen me shooting, shown some interest and ended up with a slingshot I assembled on the spot from an old fork and a set of bands. Never once were they disappointed with their ugly new slingshot. They instead had a ball shooting.

When someone posts an ugly slingshot on this forum where there are so many pictures of beautiful slingshots, I don't presume they are unaware of how much more unattractive their slingshot is than others they can easily see. I instead presume they are excited about having created something for themselves and want to share that excitement with others.

Why dump on them. Unless our own insecurities require us to lord it over them.

winnie


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

I look at it in two ways-
1) if only about the same 15 to 40 people out of a forum of 17,320 say it's great, then what are the rest thinking? (Well at least the members who participate out of the 17,000 plus)
2) people tend to get b-hurt on here easily.


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## CornDawg (Sep 27, 2015)

"Why dump on them." -priceless 

Winnie, I'm not talking ugly, I'm talking doodie. So realistic you'd think it was a put-on at first. Then, as posts mount and context develops, you realize this poor fellow has no idea how seriously fecal it is, and from a critter that doesn't masticate thoroughly...

Don't we have to say something at that point? Or better yet, to reiterate a posit I've made in the past, have a contest to recognize them, maybe a badge to commemorate the misses that gag us, the generally hideous, or the mindlessly repulsive. Nomination for such a badge would serve to notify without the intimacy of personal protest.


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## MikmaqWarrior (May 12, 2014)

CornDawg said:


> Wouldn't you want to know, as a maker, though? I'll stipulate to the necessity of the safety call, but to intentionally avoid commenting on aesthetic quality shortchanges the poster a little I think, especially on a forum that awards monthly and yearly prizes for such things... He's denied any authenticity regarding our perception. In this instance the maker may never have been exposed to a fresh, glistening pile, as odd as that may seem. He may be a vegetarian, or never owned large dogs, or, he may be just too close to the trees to see the forest.


I would want to know. Any artist wants to know when any of their work becomes subpar. How can you become great at something, if your peers don't steer you in the right direction...

Daniel Larusso never would've became the karate champ without Mr Miyagi.....

I think there is probably a better way to let them know than comparing their work to something you have to scoop off of the neighbors lawn while walking the dog...Even if it had peanuts and corn in it....lol

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## CornDawg (Sep 27, 2015)

When I was a young man my father and I had a discussion about true friends. He said some night I'd be out carousing with my friends, wind up club hopping, and after a few cocktails I'd be absolutely killing it. Every joke lands, all the girls are trying to get close- just one of those "can't miss" nights where my charm and magnetism are simply too perfect to ignore. He said my true friend would be the first person to tell me of the huge, dried dollop of mustard beneath my left nostril...

I always carried tissue after that.


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

An ugly slingshot contest. We've had contests for everything else.

Fecal But Functioning

Poopy But Powerful

S..ty But Shiny

Lousy But Loved

Catapult for Crap

Turd Slinger


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## Flatband (Dec 18, 2009)

pult421 said:


> Our worst critic.. should be ourselves.


LOVE IT! Simple and true.


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## Alfred E.M. (Jul 5, 2014)

Winnie said:


> I'm not sure that we are all hard wired to make things especially attractive and not settle "for any old POS". I, for instance, am a dentist. All day long I have to worry about precision and minutia. The last thing I want is a hobby that requires extra attention to detail. My slingshot is, by others' standards, nothing fancy. It is plain and unadorned, and yet I am content with it.
> 
> There have been plenty of times through the years that I have headed off into the woods with only a set of bands and have cut a fork and banded it up to have fun. These slingshots have been "ugly" but very satisfying. There have also been a number of times others have seen me shooting, shown some interest and ended up with a slingshot I assembled on the spot from an old fork and a set of bands. Never once were they disappointed with their ugly new slingshot. They instead had a ball shooting.
> 
> ...


*Hey Winnie - please note that I didn't advocate dumping on anyone.*

*I understand how the pressures of your work steer you toward simple slingshot preferences. However, I once had a dentist who did really intricate wood carvings with a Dremel in hand all weekend - claimed it enhanced his practice.*

*I stand by my opinion - most people, given a choice, prefer aesthetics in their lives. *


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## CornDawg (Sep 27, 2015)

I really do think a Turd Sling contest would be a hoot- changed to simile from metaphor of course I've got a whole box full of potential champions. 

Folks may even begin to "build ugly" on purpose.

I'd love to see what some of you guys could come up with given that parameter...


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

I have to agree, most people prefer esthetics in their lives, yet I have to think that someone posting a picture of an obviously ugly slingshot is unlikely to be asking if it is esthetically pleasing. I suspect that they are hoping for positive feedback along another line. Throw them a bone and feed their ego a bit. Maybe they'll catch the bug and start building.


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

Go for it CornDawg! All that's needed is a prize, a description and a timeline.


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## CornDawg (Sep 27, 2015)

I mean, what better way to turn a negative into a positive?

You could be honest, and tell a participant that his or her entry is an exercise in disgust and it wouldn't be an insult, on the contrary, it may put them on the threshold of victory.

Oh, I think someone with a bit more tenure, or a moderator, should oversee this project. I'd be after the badge-

I will compose a custom, tier 2 verse for the champion as my contribution. Meaning I'll get jiggy with it...


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## ghost0311/8541 (Jan 6, 2013)

bigdh2000 said:


> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


 yep my first board cuts looked like ping pong paddle with a hole in the middle but they shot great.


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## Tag (Jun 11, 2014)

A high society woman was taking her baby to the Dr. For its first checkup. When the Dr. Entered the room the lady asked the Dr., "Not all babies are beautiful, what do you tell their Mothers, without hesitation the Dr. Replied "LOOKS JUST LIKE YOU MAM????????????????????????????????????????


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## lunasling (Apr 5, 2015)

There are those that prefer simple frames without bells and whistles practical shooters , "KISS" . I am one of them . as long as it does the job intended to do !

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## flipgun (Nov 14, 2012)

I have thrown the flag and called B.S. in a global trade or two, but as you say, "If you can't say something nice..." :iono:

I will take into consideration the age, experience and enthusiasm of the maker. The line between a novice and the delusional (coughshockleycough) is quite clear. To the first I will offer what help I may and TRY to ignore the other.


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## brucered (Dec 30, 2015)

With regards to taking the posters age into account...isn't there a legal limit as to the age someone has to be, to join the forum or at minimum registered with an email domain?


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Regarding age - don't think I got specifically asked when I joined, think its optional.


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## brucered (Dec 30, 2015)

@mattwalt OK, that makes sense. I guess the only restriction would be the email they use to register here. If that domain (Google, Yahoo, etc), have a limit of 16 or 13), that would be the minimum age they could be to join.

But I know that's easy to get around.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

brucered said:


> @mattwalt OK, that makes sense. I guess the only restriction would be the email they use to register here. If that domain (Google, Yahoo, etc), have a limit of 16 or 13), that would be the minimum age they could be to join.
> 
> But I know that's easy to get around.


Though to be fair - a 13 year old who gets harshly criticised would probably be pretty devastated... My daughter at 8 needed to have a gmail account with a personal email for school (homework assignments etc.) as they use tablets quite a lot - in fact she had a school email from 6. Not that we approved generally about tech being such a huge part of her life at that age...


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

" Be nice until it's not time to be nice ."

Dolton from " Roadhouse "


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## brucered (Dec 30, 2015)

mattwalt said:


> Though to be fair - a 13 year old who gets harshly criticised would probably be pretty devastated...


If they are old enough to post online or posting online without supervision, they are opening themselves up for a lot worse then someone telling them their slingshot looks like crap, when it actually does look like crap in the replies eyes.

Age on a forum, should not be a factor in stopping members from saying something negative to a post, in a respectful way. We shouldn't be responsible for checking their age before replying or having to take that into consideration. I would never post "your frame looks like crap", but no one should take offense to someone asking "did you do any sanding on it", "it looks a little rough" or something similar.

If they post something and ask for opinions, they have to be able to take the good with the bad. Forums are different than Twitter, Instagram and FB, you can't delete the posts yourself and moderate the content. I think that's where some of the "kids" posting these days get upset or fire back with personal attacks and swearing. The moment they see something negative or get a thumbs down, they get defensive and their first reaction is to fire back.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

brucered said:


> mattwalt said:
> 
> 
> > Though to be fair - a 13 year old who gets harshly criticised would probably be pretty devastated...
> ...


I totally agree - We monitor our kids heavily online which prevents them getting upset in similar circumstances. But its just a point to consider.


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## CornDawg (Sep 27, 2015)

I get that you have to go case by case, but apprising a maker of turd status, with tact, will always be a challenge. My nature is toward humor, which is doubly dangerous, because when combined with a negative I can seem mocking or smart alecky. There's never any malice but I can see where some may be inferred. It is a fine line.

In the example given I probably would have started by complementing the heft of the piece. Then I'd have asked if mammalian waste was his intended theme, and perhaps recommended some urine-colored latex to complete the ensemble. Maybe suggest names for the rig, like 'Pooper,' 'Stoolie,' or 'the Void.' OR, I could just say "Band that POS up! You're in the running Partner! Just horrendous! Congrats!"--

Ya gotta prefer the latter, right?


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## The Gopher (Aug 25, 2010)

For the most part I've always just followed the adage, "if you don't have anything nice to say...". However, with the safety concern already addressed, I will leave constructive criticism when the maker asks for it. as an example a new maker posts a slingshot and says, tell me what I can do better. While this shouldn't open to door to all out lambasting, it is an invitation to critique the work such as: round the edges, remove tool marks, etc.

If someone posts an absolute disgusting looking slingshot and doesn't ask for a review, just pass it by, they'll understand when there are little to no comments coming in.

I go back to my oldest posts every now and then and get a good chuckle out of some of my very early frames, very turd worthy indeed!


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## honorary pie (Feb 12, 2015)

hey, I've dropped a few jokes.. I'll keep it short since I'm still recovering from a brutal verbal butt-whooping.. Dawg, I'm surprised you needed to ask....

straight up.. doesnt matter who posted it,use your head.. I reserve my criticisms for personalities and safety. if somebody insists his shooter is the best thing since plywood, and it's not, then let him know, cause he's obviously being delusional, but when something is so ugly it hurts, and the maker has no idea, it's probably his first slingshot or the idea of consequetial beauty doesn't register to him. some guys continually post slingshots made with stuff I wouldn't use to fix a drain with, but my dickish opinion only serves to hurt feelings and create dissent..

hey man., I posted my favorite shooter of last year, and it got 6 replies here.. I can only imagine what all the non-posters thought of it..

I say let the kids play.. if something can benefit from your opinion like ."hey, that would look real cool sanded to 600" then do it. soft humor the poster might not get, lay it down, I'll pick it up...


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)




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## CornDawg (Sep 27, 2015)

Monkey see, monkey doo-doo...

:rofl:


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## RHTWIST (Jan 31, 2014)

I encouraged a first time carver when he asked the forum "I am not sure what to do next to this SS" or something to that effect. His SS was not symmetrical or finished beautifully but

if banded, he could have flung ammo with it. I said, where I would go and he wrote back thanking me. When asked, positive encouragement is always best. If you truly don't like the SS

the lack of comments may say something to the maker, or a positive might be something like "JW if you took the time to round those fork edges a little more, remove a little more of the bark from the upper handle area and scrape off all the raisins, that would be one good looking SS. -CD


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## brucered (Dec 30, 2015)

CornDawg said:


> Monkey see, monkey doo-doo...
> 
> :rofl:


Monkey Pee all over you!


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## RHTWIST (Jan 31, 2014)

I actually made one that looks like poop! It does and it doesn't. It is a little box elder that soaked in old coffee grinds after carving. Go to my gallery, it is set up as a BB shooter.

It is very nice in person but I was wondering why people would ask "Is that a slingshot in your pocket or do you need a Depends." -CD


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