# SPS ?



## Sharpshooter II (Apr 15, 2014)

Hi guys , not been on here a lot recently but I'm back and I'll be posting a lot more.
Just wondering where the best place to buy an SPS catapult , the cheaper the better as I might get one in a couple of weeks, cheers


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## parnell (May 20, 2012)

The SPS is made by performance catapults. It is a design that hasn't been shared or released to the public.


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

Also be advised that there is a patent on the process . It would be best to contact performance catapults . Besides an original seems to hold its value and easily re-sells if need be .


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

I got an amazing copy from a British builder. Guess they don't care about patents in the UK. Extremely affordable too.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

If you want a Real SPS contact JIM HARRIS at Performance Catapults. Nothing like the real thing.


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## JonM (Aug 17, 2013)

I'd look at the British makers. More bang for the buck & less hype, although there are those that frown on that sort of thing.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

I'm pretty sure Jim has made it clear he doesn't wish to share his design OR the making process with the world in general... heck he even took out a patent to make sure he has exclusive rights to do what he wants to do.

Jim has been nothing but supportive for slingshot shooting, the hobby and the sport in general... and people can't allow him to have that one little thing be his?

That british copy monkey should do some shooting and come up with his own design to sell... all this copying other people's ideas and passing them off as your own is really slimy.


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Bill Hays said:


> I'm pretty sure Jim has made it clear he doesn't wish to share his design OR the making process with the world in general... heck he even took out a patent to make sure he has exclusive rights to do what he wants to do.
> Jim has been nothing but supportive for slingshot shooting, the hobby and the sport in general... and people can't allow him to have that one little thing be his?
> 
> That british copy monkey should do some shooting and come up with his own design to sell... all this copying other people's ideas and passing them off as your own is really slimy.


Just saying, the "copy monkey" I got mine from never passed it off as his own design. Pretty sure everyone has heard who took out the patent on his design and metal cores. I know the builder I got mine from does shoot and has designed really nice shapes. You are certainly entitled to your name calling and lowly opinion of any builder. Sharpshooter II asked a question. I gave him an alternative option. In most instances there is more then one choice. I'm lucky enough to have won my copy and met the builder who made it. I'm sure Sharpshooter II will get what he wants soon.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

A copy is just a copy. You can buy a Rolex copy, a Fender guitar copy. A Gerber Knife copy, Nike fakes. If that's what your in to. I prefer the real thing not a copy of someone else's design. Just like I would never buy a copy of a Bill Hays slingshot. I would get it from Bill himself.


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Cjw said:


> A copy is just a copy. You can buy a Rolex copy, a Fender guitar copy. A Gerber Knife copy, Nike fakes. If that's what your in to. I prefer the real thing not a copy of someone else's design. Just like I would never buy a copy of a Bill Hays slingshot. I would get it from Bill himself.


Yeah, Bill Hays makes awesome stuff. Having said that, I buy generic foods rather then the name brands all the time. It's often good and much cheaper. There have been times where I regretted buying generic too. Ahh the choices in life.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Randy... now you know I love you man... you're talented, smart and creative to boot...

BUT that particular British BS artist has out right stolen a LOT of designs and has even gone so far as to take some of the things Hogan's castings has done and just straight up rip them off as well... to compare that slimeball with ANY maker who's thought out and made their own designs from their own mind and according to their own preferences is an insult to EVERY creative soul involved in slingshots.

Honestly I don't get it... if he were here in America and ever showed up to one of our events... I'm pretty certain he'd have a toothless smile... but instead he's just lucky to be in the UK and have a lot less temperamental guys to try and rub up to.


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## you'llshootyereyeout (Apr 5, 2014)

The OP mentioned "the cheaper the better". This statement makes me wonder how familiar he is with the SPS. As I've not seen one available for less than a few hundred US. In this midset perhaps a clone is a worthy initial investment.


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Bill Hays said:


> Randy... now you know I love you man... you're talented, smart and creative to boot...
> BUT that particular British BS artist has out right stolen a LOT of designs and has even gone so far as to take some of the things Hogan's castings has done and just straight up rip them off as well... to compare that slimeball with ANY maker who's thought out and made their own designs from their own mind and according to their own preferences is an insult to EVERY creative soul involved in slingshots.
> Honestly I don't get it... if he were here in America and ever showed up to one of our events... I'm pretty certain he'd have a toothless smile... but instead he's just lucky to be in the UK and have a lot less temperamental guys to try and rub up to.


Just saying, there are many "bs artists" outside of the U.S. making sps copies. Not just one "particular bs artist". I think the copying of the frame has gotten worse since U.S. patent was approved.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

CanH8r said:


> Bill Hays said:
> 
> 
> > Randy... now you know I love you man... you're talented, smart and creative to boot...
> ...


Ah crap... I said Randy instead of Jeff... you "Can" guys should get together and use your real names so when I get lazy and barely look at your avatar name, especially when you change the picture, I don't get confused!

All I'm saying is, if you want an SPS you can buy one... it won't be cheap, unless someone is willing to part with one of theirs for not much... sometimes you'll see them on ebay if you pay attention.

If you do buy a slingshot that looks like an SPS from some guy in England... that is NOT an SPS... it's a clone. I don't care if the clone is made just as well or not, it is still a clone and is an insult to the original designer... since he had zero interest in others copying his work and passing it off as an SPS.

Whether the amount of SPS clones increased since the patent went through has increased is beside the point... they're still clones and spit in the face of common decency and respect for the original creator.... and as it so happens I know the original creator fairly well, and that crap wouldn't fly if the guy were here in the USA.

Now, I too have made the mistake of buying clones before... in fact recently I bought a knife off ebay that is a Chris Reeve Sebenza clone... I did not intend to do that... I thought it was the real thing... but as it so happens the knife, when it arrived with it's official looking paperwork and box is NOT a Sebenza... I own several of the real ones, so I knew the difference instantly when I took it out of the box.

But to the uninitiated they might get fooled into thinking it is the real thing since they've never handled the real thing...

I'm not saying that's what it would be like with the SPS versus a clone... but it does seem to be a very likely scenario to me though.


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## Sharpshooter II (Apr 15, 2014)

Some copy's are as good as the real thing though 
I don't really want to spend £160 on a SPS when I could get one for £60 off an English maker


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## zippo (Jul 9, 2014)

Sharpshooter II said:


> Some copy's are as good as the real =-thing though
> I don't really want to spend £160 on a SPS when I could get one for £60 off an English maker


In my view if you got the 160£ then you should get an original, but if the MAX you can spend is 60-70£ then get the copy and if you like it then buy the original when you get the funds. 
I almost amde an offer on the last SPS but then i thought that heck i dont know if i like the way it feels and the overall design.. so i will place an order soon on the copy..


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Bill Hays said:


> CanH8r said:
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> > Bill Hays said:
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Bill I can respect that 100%. I have no issues with how you feel or who's teeth you want to relocate. I like to back my friends too. In every debate there are always 2 sides. I happen to know plenty of people who disagree with how the patent went down. So to some degree it does matter that the copies increased after the U.S. patent dropped on the world. There might be some people who feel like the patent was a "disrespectful spit in the face" to the whole community. So those people who are building the clones/copies the good ones and the bad ones, don't have the same respect for your friend as you do. This is a ugly mess and I truly struggle to see who is right and who is wrong.

Out of respect for the people on this Forum who are in full support of the patent and its intent, I will not divulge to the good members who may have pm'ed me about sps copy builders. The builders are not active on this forum. If you really wanted a copy rather then original it would not be hard to find one. Be very careful as there are builders who don't take the time to finish properly and are just trying to make a buck.


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

CanH8r said:


> Be very careful as there are builders who don't take the time to finish properly and are just trying to make a buck.


Which is never an issue if you get a real one.


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## Susi (Mar 3, 2013)

I had no idea, Matt, per your post above, that real live people paid more for a slingshot than a pistol with all it's working parts and precision.. Wow! Must be some kinda romance for slingshots I didn't know about. There is much more to this market potential than I ever dreamed. Now I can better understand the reasoning of making your own metal core SS than forking out a couple hundred USD for it. Has slingshoting gone so far as having a "collection" of high priced sling shots worth thoudsands of USD? I'm NOT chastising anyone, just wondering how deep this sport...or should I say, passion, has manifested itself. What is the highest priced slingshot? A Guiness record perhaps should be submitted. The "Oil Man" model might be made of 18K gold studded with diamonds, sapphires and rubies? LOL

I think it's pretty pathetic that original designs which are commercial in nature are cloned or copied by unscrupulous parasites to make a lousy buck. Bill's designs and other originals are commonly copied and sold, to me that's pretty pathetic. But what is humanity? In a way it's a compliment to be copied, in a way it's not. My designs are free market but I don't sell sling shots either....were I one of the vendors however I may take a different stance.

I guess it all boils down to "do you want an original for psychological reasons, or do you just want utility...something that looks like the original that shoots and performs almost or as well as the original?" Right?

I would never personally pay more than thirty bucks for a slingshot, I bought a few in my life, a TruMark and a Marksman, both price point SSs and was happy with them...still have the Marksman and shoot it often. But that's just me, among thousands of SS fanciers.

By the way Bill, I like your writing style and expression of thought. Don't change. There's a lot of "sheeple" around and you're not one of 'em. nuff said,

chuck


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

I'd like to know where you can buy a decent gun for the price of a slingshot. Last hand gun I bought was over $ 700.00 . I have match air pistols that cost $ 1800.00


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## you'llshootyereyeout (Apr 5, 2014)

I bought this for under two hundred.

http://www.henryrifles.com/rifles/u-s-survival-ar-7/

Made in America also.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Check the price of a decent hand gun. Like a colt , Smith+Wesson , Ruger, H+K etc.


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## you'llshootyereyeout (Apr 5, 2014)

Chuck did not specify the quality or price point of the pistol in his comparison. I think we can all agree that a pistol can be had for less than the price of an authentic SPS.

As the original poster does not live in this contry no one is advocating breaking any laws.


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## JonM (Aug 17, 2013)

Interesting. If in fact you were referring to me, U.S.patents are not enforceable outside the U.S. Since the O.P. lives in England, how was I siding with those that do not respect the right of the inventor by answering his question & referring him to an English maker thus saving him some money which was the initial inquiry? Ethics has nothing to do with a Brit buying a Brit built product. Personally, I don't own an SPS & hope that his venture does well within the U.S. If you weren't referring to me....never mind.

Interesting line in the sand either way it is looked upon.


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## you'llshootyereyeout (Apr 5, 2014)

I have always found condescension to be the corner stone of a productive conversation. As far as I can tell there was a suggestion for non-American to buy a clone not made in America.

Always a pleasure Henry


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Henry in Panama said:


> I am somewhat dismayed, but not overly surprised, at the number of members who have no respect for a person's right to patent and enjoy exclusive use of a design. Are the schools not teaching ethics anymore?
> 
> For those of you who live in the US, know that it is a violation of US law to import copies of patented items. It is also a violation of Forum rules to advocate breaking the law.


I feel the schools are teaching students to be independent thinkers. I believe the catch phrase is 21st Century Learners. With this model they are encouraged to listen to teachers, read the textbooks, listen to parents and not believe everything in order to make their own choice on what they feel is correct. Of course they are encouraged to be respectful to a view that they feel different from. Unfortunately there are many laws or decisions that the government has made that were unjust or poor decisions. So as I told Bill, there are people who feel that the patent was a mistake or at least the part of it was. It is there right to believe what they think is right.

As for Sharpshooter II and yourself, you guys are not in the US so you are not bound to the handcuffs of the patent law whether it is just or not. You are lucky you aren't handcuffed by the patent as the U.S. forum members are. Although I don't feel the need to explain my acusition of my copy, I still will. I am lucky enough to have won it as a prize so it was for free. So like you being lucky to not have to worry about it I am lucky too. In actuality I have shot it, lit a match with it and put it up as it's just not what I am shooting well with.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

There's a lot of laws I feel are wrong but it doesn't give me the go ahead to break them.


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

treefork said:


> CanH8r said:
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> 
> > Henry in Panama said:
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We are out again because of inclement weather the Internet is most likely teaching them today. Having said that, I can multi-task. How are you doing with your job? Also I am not arguing for or against it, I have clearly stated that there are members that are for and against it. I have not said which way I side on. The only thing I have said is I struggled to see which side is truly right. I don't think its school board or my principle would have a problem with me. Why are you so concerned about my job?


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## Nobodo (Nov 5, 2014)

I have been curious about this topic ever since I very recently became involved in making slingshots.

I have downloaded every template on this website and on the other slingshot forums, but I don't want any slingshot I make to be the same as one of those templates or the same as any existing named slingshot because I want to do my own thing.

However, one thing I have noticed is there is very little (very, very little) difference in shape between probably 75% of the slingshots that are made/sold/traded.

It seems that the majority of the differences are in the different materials used, how they are combined, and the quality of the end product.

There are probably 30 named slingshots that are so similar most people could not tell them apart unless they saw them sitting side by side.

Somebody makes a slingshot, gives it a name, but when you look at it, it's exactly the same as some other slingshot except maybe the band attachment is a little different.

Taking the SPS as an example, I see countless numbers of slingshots being produced and getting tons of compliments that have the exact same shape as the SPS from Performance Catapults, yet I don't see anybody saying it is a copy of an SPS. Heck people even give their creations new names, yet they have the exact same outline as an SPS. I have no idea what the patent on the SPS says or why it is that so many people produce slingshots that look exactly like the SPS yet aren't violating the patent. I don't plan to make anything similar to an SPS so don't really care for myself, but my god so many look so much like an SPS there has to be some violation going on there somewhere.

Looking at the templates on this website, I see at least two that look practically exactly the same as a pocket predator Hathcock, yet give no credit, and when somebody makes one and posts it here I don't hear complaints about them being copies. The same for other named slingshots; the templates look almost exactly the same yet give no credit.

There are countless variations on one basic slingshot - straight body often with a slight swell, groove for index on one side of forks and groove for thumb on the other. The Scout is a great example of this. When you look at these, there are very little differences from one slingshot to another, yet many people claim it is their design. Then you take that same exact design, maybe put the body offset a little bit or change the fork tips some, and suddenly it's a new design.

There was a guy on here very recently that was selling clones of Rufus Hussey slingshots, complete with forged Hussey signatures. Nowhere in his newer postings did he say these were clones, and nobody called him out on it. Yet if you looked back through his posting history he showed the same slingshots and said that he made some, and some friend of his who went to church with Hussey made some others. Nobody called him out on it, and a number of people said they wish they could afford to buy them.

Ok, I'm not trying to trash anybody here or their designs. There are a ton of people with excellent designs and workmanship that I can never hope to approach in their manufacture. People take great pride in the slingshots they produce and rightfully so; they are works of art.

I guess the thing I don't get is what is copyright and what isn't? It blows me away to see slingshots posted here in the "Homemade Slingshots" or "For Sale by Individuals" sections that look exactly the same as somebody else's product, yet maybe is made out of different woods or has some slightly different band attachment, yet is given a different name and is treated as a brand new design. I have seen a few discussions in here where somebody might ask about a seller on eBay or something like that, and almost immediately people will pounce saying their products are nothing but copies of somebody else's work. However, when I take a look at what they are selling, they are somewhat similar to other slingshots but a lot more different than products others put on this forum all the time.

As time goes by it will become harder and harder for people to come up with truly original ideas for slingshots. Right now I don't understand at all why a lot of the slingshots produced are claimed to be a new product instead of "this is a copy of xxx with a slight variation". I'm trying to create slingshots myself, trying not to copy others, but I have to say it's practically impossible to come up with a truly completely original slingshot.

Thanks,

Mark.


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

treefork said:


> CanH8r said:
> 
> 
> > treefork said:
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I'm sorry. I don't understand what you are saying. Please elaborate? To be clear I am not at work today as it was cancelled because of too much snow on the ground. Are you saying that you are working and are a student as well?


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

Mark, there was a long and contentious discussion of Jim Harris' patent. He did not patent the shape, but rather the method of construction. You could make a slingshot that looked nothing like Jim's and still violate the patent. Conversely you could make one that looked exactly like it and not violate the patent. You can read the discussion if you like, but cannot reply to it.

http://slingshotforum.com/topic/36404-patent-notification-metal-core-slingshot/?hl=patent


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

CanH8r said:


> treefork said:
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> > CanH8r said:
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Just wanted to be clear that you are wrong in accusing me of arguing in favor of opposing US patents. If you are not to busy at work or school please read over my posts carefully. You will see that I haven't done so. I have said that this is a mess and it is very hard to see who is right.


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## Nobodo (Nov 5, 2014)

Henry in Panama said:


> Mark, there was a long and contentious discussion of Jim Harris' patent. He did not patent the shape, but rather the method of construction. You could make a slingshot that looked nothing like Jim's and still violate the patent. Conversely you could make one that looked exactly like it and not violate the patent. You can read the discussion if you like, but cannot reply to it.
> 
> http://slingshotforum.com/topic/36404-patent-notification-metal-core-slingshot/?hl=patent


Oh, my, yes I remember reading this and looking at the patent a few months ago now.

It seems that what's really being discussed here is not a violation of patent, but copying the product of somebody else for your own gain, patent or no patent.

As time passes it will be harder and harder to truly produce a slingshot that is not in some way a copy of somebody else's; it's a moral decision for each of us when to claim a design is truly our own when in fact it is our own twist on an existing product. Some people's moral standards in "what is a copy of somebody else's slingshot and what is not" are higher than others, and these decisions will only become harder in the future.

Thanks,

Mark.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

:zipped: ...


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Dayhiker said:


> :zipped: ...


:thumbsup: :drinkup:


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## Sharpshooter II (Apr 15, 2014)

I didn't ask for any banter guys lol
I'll just get a clone and see if I like them ')


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## crazymike (May 8, 2011)

hope I never see a clone because I would throw it in my camfire.and then shoot it with my SPS that Jim gave to me. the end


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

crazymike said:


> hope I never see a clone because I would throw it in my camfire.and then shoot it with my SPS that Jim gave to me. the end


Why would you buy a clone to throw in the fire and shoot with the sps that Jim gave you?


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Henry in Panama said:


> Don't get your panties in a wad, guys. No posts have been deleted, no one has been castigated. I stated my opinion and a couple of facts.
> 
> CanH8er, what you call independent thinking, we-old timers call situational ethics, which is what I'm seeing on the thread. Even where it is not illegal to copy and sell the work of others, ethics (the kind we old-timers practice) would make it unacceptable.


Henry in Panamer, I don't call anything or any body independent thinkers. You asked a question "are the schools not teaching ethics anymore". I answered your question on the latest model. You need to understand that some people find it unethical on what is a violation of the patent and what is not. I respect your opinion on the patent, I really do. I also respect the opinion of members of the community who don't believe in the validity of the patent. If you don't live in the States and want to buy a copy, I respect that. Just as I respect the fact that people feel that the patent is a good one and would only buy from the patent holder. I could just as easily call your reluctance to question the patent because it was granted "situational ethics". There are always two sides to an argument and someone will always be upset. I will remain open minded and respect people's beliefs and judgement. That does not have to mean I agree with them.

Cheers


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## SmilingFury (Jul 2, 2013)

VPB.


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## Arber (Mar 30, 2013)

I am supposed to be doing my homework right now but I have chose to read this instead. It is much better than any novel.


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Henry in Panama said:


> CanH8r said:
> 
> 
> > Henry in Panamer, I don't call anything or any body independent thinkers. You asked a question "are the schools not teaching ethics anymore". I answered your question on the latest model. You need to understand that some people find it unethical on what is a violation of the patent and what is not. I respect your opinion on the patent, I really do. I also respect the opinion of members of the community who don't believe in You are saying that if I feel it's OK to steal someone else's design and sell it, you aren't going to judge methe validity of the patent. If you don't live in the States and want to buy a copy, I respect that. Just as I respect the fact that people feel that the patent is a good one and would only buy from the patent holder. I could just as easily call your reluctance to question the patent because it was granted "situational ethics". There are always two sides to an argument and someone will always be upset. I will remain open minded and respect people's beliefs and judgement. That does not have to mean I agree with them.
> ...


If I wanted to say that I thought it was ok for you to steal someone's design and sell it, I won't judge you then I would just come out and say that. Do you think your using "situational ethics" to ignore what I am saying, and make assumptions about my character? Henry I have not bought an sps clone illegally. I won one for free. It is only illegal to build and sell metal cores in the United States. I'm sorry if I don't judge the builders who are not bound by the patent. If you do very good sir. You can describe my character as flawed and what is wrong with society today. I will respect that. I certainly don't agree with you though. Could you maybe consider that not all situations are not all black and white? Is it not the role of a moderator to "moderate"? It's as if anyone who disagrees with you believes in situational ethics. You are very quick to state the law and what's wrong and against the rules of this forum when it's something that you disagree with. However, you don't qoute the rules when someone talks about removing teeth or taking someone else's property and throwing it into a fire and shooting it. Are those acts of violence not against the law and rules of this forum? I respect and admire the person who is willing to remove someone's teeth to stick up for his friends views. I like the fact that someone feels so strongly about copies that they would steal the property and burn it. It is ethical to allow people to have strong feelings and passion.


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## quarterinmynose (Jan 21, 2012)

Ethics...moral principals......what is ethical and how does that pertain to the law? OMG, I have never wanted to participate in a shit storm so bad in my life!

Is it ethical to promote something that you think is unjust simply because it has been stamped by the powers that be?

Is it right to claim someone has a complete lack of ethics, simply because their opinion(not necessarily their actions) is not in line with the law? :zipped:

Where do our ideals concerning independent thought and being a good citizen/person/dog converge and to what result!?!

OH sweet conflict, why do I take such joy in this?!!!!


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

CanH8r said:


> If I wanted to say that I thought it was ok for you to steal someone's design and sell it, I won't judge you then I would just come out and say that. Do you think your using "situational ethics" to ignore what I am saying, and make assumptions about my character? Henry I have not bought an sps clone illegally. I won one for free. It is only illegal to build and sell metal cores in the United States. I'm sorry if I don't judge the builders who are not bound by the patent. If you do very good sir. You can describe my character as flawed and what is wrong with society today. I will respect that. I certainly don't agree with you though. Could you maybe consider that not all situations are not all black and white? Is it not the role of a moderator to "moderate"? It's as if anyone who disagrees with you believes in situational ethics. You are very quick to state the law and what's wrong and against the rules of this forum when it's something that you disagree with. However, you don't qoute the rules when someone talks about removing teeth or taking someone else's property and throwing it into a fire and shooting it. Are those acts of violence not against the law and rules of this forum? I respect and admire the person who is willing to remove someone's teeth to stick up for his friends views. I like the fact that someone feels so strongly about copies that they would steal the property and burn it. It is ethical to allow people to have strong feelings and passion.


OK, Uncle! I know from long experience that this is not a winnable argument. For me or for you. I do, though resent and reject your argument that because I am a moderator, I am supposed to keep my mouth shut and not give my opinion. When I see a violation of Forum rules, then I will moderate. Until then, I am just another member with as much right to my opinion as anyone. If you think I have violated the rules, make a report.

As for the "removing teeth" comment. it was not directed at any member of the forum, or any person in particular.. If you don't understand the rules, please refrain from commenting on them.


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

quarterinmynose said:


> Is it right to claim someone has a complete lack of ethics, simply because their opinion(not necessarily their actions) is not in line with the law? :zipped:


No, of course it isn't, but that is not what I did. I said that situational ethics is the same as no ethics. I did NOT say or imply that CanH8er has no ethics. It is highly unlikely that anyone would have no ethics at all, but it is very common for some people to apply situational ethics to some situations.


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## you'llshootyereyeout (Apr 5, 2014)

I could swear I read "uncle".


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

Addressed to CanH8er, not to you.


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Henry in Panama said:


> CanH8r said:
> 
> 
> > If I wanted to say that I thought it was ok for you to steal someone's design and sell it, I won't judge you then I would just come out and say that. Do you think your using "situational ethics" to ignore what I am saying, and make assumptions about my character? Henry I have not bought an sps clone illegally. I won one for free. It is only illegal to build and sell metal cores in the United States. I'm sorry if I don't judge the builders who are not bound by the patent. If you do very good sir. You can describe my character as flawed and what is wrong with society today. I will respect that. I certainly don't agree with you though. Could you maybe consider that not all situations are not all black and white? Is it not the role of a moderator to "moderate"? It's as if anyone who disagrees with you believes in situational ethics. You are very quick to state the law and what's wrong and against the rules of this forum when it's something that you disagree with. However, you don't qoute the rules when someone talks about removing teeth or taking someone else's property and throwing it into a fire and shooting it. Are those acts of violence not against the law and rules of this forum? I respect and admire the person who is willing to remove someone's teeth to stick up for his friends views. I like the fact that someone feels so strongly about copies that they would steal the property and burn it. It is ethical to allow people to have strong feelings and passion.
> ...


Henry,
When you claim "Uncle" that normally means you have had enough. Is it ethical to claim uncle yet carry on the dispute you are having? You sir are certainly able and entitled to your opinion, thoughts and speech. I know you think lowly of my character, but I would fight for your rights to think and feel what you believe in. You are certainly not supposed to keep your mouth shut. My issue is when you feel strongly about the banter that goes on and do speak your mind, you should leave the moderating to one of the others. This of course is just my opinion, but I would be willing to bet I'm not the only member who feels the same. Unlike yourself, I was not trying to win an argument against you. I was only trying to state that there are two sides of the story. Yes,there may be bad ethics and intentions on either side, but I feel it's important to respect people's right to research and make their own opinions.

It is not in my nature to go and tattle tale on you if I did think you were out of line. I realize you are doing what you think is right. Again at times I don't agree with you, but that's why we go head to head A LOT lol.

How do you know that the removing teeth comment was not towards a forum member? Are there not any UK members here anymore? Again I have much respect and no issues with the statement. Nor the statement of taking someone else's property and burning it and shooting it. I respect both forum members for taking a stand for what they believe. You say you only take action against forum rule violation and laws when they are directed at another forum member, then what and who was this moderator muscle flex for and about:



Henry in Panama said:


> For those of you who live in the US, know that it is a violation of US law to import copies of patented items. It is also a violation of Forum rules to advocate breaking the law.


?

No one was breaking any laws or forum rules. The member who was interested in buying an sps copy lives in the UK! The builder he most likely will buy from lives there too! How do you know that the sps copy that will be exchanged will even have a steel core? "Situational ethics" at its finest if you ask me (I know you wouldn't ask me as I am part of what's wrong with the world today).


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

The usual response when someone concedes, is to stop attacking.


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Henry in Panama said:


> The usual response when someone concedes, is to stop attacking.


Okay, my bad.


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

BTW, the proper quote is "Never wrestle a Pig. You will get dirty and the Pig loves it".


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Henry in Panama said:


> BTW, the proper quote is "Never wrestle a Pig. You will get dirty and the Pig loves it".


I am familiar with this qoute. I do like it as it is similar. However I was quoting my crazy uncle Ziggy. The older he got the more crazy he became. He always had time for me and loved all dogs while he hated most people.


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## Susi (Mar 3, 2013)

Well, for one, Cjw, go to gun shows, pick up a used but nice condition Baretta minx or lynx for a couple hundred or less, a dandy .22 tuck away gun, I had a Minx in Vietnam as a back up, regulations or no regulations, brought it home and now my nephew has it, ssg us army.. or take yer pick for $200 or even less, other revolvers and autos...good shooters, lots of working parts, and of course good shooting .22 tube fed rifles, used but almost mint...blued S&W revolvers in many calibers, TCs, point being a gun of any sort, reasonable shootable quality has a basket of working parts, stocks, grips etc.. each machined precise enough to work for a life time, Nylon 66s, .22 arms, bolt action big game rifles, used but good, and so forth, not Weatherby show case snob appeal mantle pieces purchased by rich heart surgeons to show off an seldom shoot...not new out of the box stuff...but good stuff. A slingshot has one working part. Am I missing something? No.

Now, I spend DAYS making a solid micarta SS and days making a HDPE super ergo with arm brace, yes I know the time element. And if someone wants to spend a couple hundred or even a hundred bucks on a one working part item, so be it, it's their money. I think It was Charles who touted a water purifier with at least six working parts that did something important...make drinking water, cost was thirty bucks. Point made. This custom made slingshot market however is just that, not mass produced...each one a masterpiece of art...yes I know the time element alright and the design R&D as Bill Hays indicated, and again, selling for what the market will bear is the name of the game, right? That's retail. No pob with that. A Timex Iron Man tells time just as good as a Rado ceramic (I have both) or a Rolex solid gold, a Rolex two tone and a Rolex solid stainless...I have all three...so why did I get snob appeal watches when a forty dollar Timex would do the same thing? Because I friggin like 'em just as those who buy a two hundred or more slingshot buy them, they like them. That's fine. I just was surprised at what people paid for sling shots, now I'm educated thanks to the forum.

The patent on metal cores is a fluke and should have never been granted. It's asking for trouble when you sneak in a patent on such a commonly made thing..that's just asking for others to keep manufacturing what they always did prior to the patent, PRIOR to the patent mind you, and for new outfits to manufacture it as they please, patent or no patent. We had a thread on this core patent BS before and it was pretty clear my opinion here was popularized by many posters, count 'em. Now, while I stick up for original designs and shun parasites who copy things and pass them off as "theirs" when they're not, that's one thing and the British "copy" isn't exactly a copy either and the mfg never said it was...it just happened to be similar. The "original" is so plain Jane and blah, no special points, no ergo, just a flat metal core SS, that many slingshots can resemble it yet not be a carbon copy. The original has no special points about it, is pretty generic if you ask me...I go for fit and comfort while others like plane Jane stuff, fine, that's an individual thing, and if a tree fork was to be patented and another tree fork, by nature's request, was similar, is that copying? No. And yes. Does it mater? Of course not.

Look at the clones in the wire frame market, many are so similar you really are shooting the same slingshot through at least five brand names. Do they pee and moan an whine and battle it out? No. They are mature manufacturers who want to sell, more than sue and whine.

I realize there is a lot of "cronyism" on this forum and have been advised by some posters of this, OK, so what? Um and likely I'll get attacked (again) but screw it...if someone can express his/her opinion freely, fine, if not, tough, no skin off my bum. Any moderator can delete a post. I'm with that. It's to maintain order. I'm with that as well. If a personal attack, that is an inferred or named attack is made, it's deleted and the poster admonished, I'm with that too. But if it is NOT deleted, tough, suck it up and don't cry about it. My laptop doesn't shoot at me no matter what is said on a stupid screen and I regard that just as is...electrons recycled are of no danger at all to me, say whatever the heck you want, pout, cry, scream, applaud, support, whatever, makes no diff to me what "crony" says what about who.

For something as basic as a dam slingshot I really don't know what all the fuss is about, you'd think it was like patent infringement on a 100 mile per gallon carburetor.

chuck


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)




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## zippo (Jul 9, 2014)

Sharpshooter asked where to get a sps, he didnt ask about clones and fakes and he didnt ask about the ethical view of buying a clone nor about the sps patent.

You are arguing over shit.

Y shaped sticks with rubber that shoot rocks, this is what it began from.


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

zippo said:


> Sharpshooter asked where to get a sps, he didnt ask about clones and fakes and he didnt ask about the ethical view of buying a clone nor about the sps patent.
> 
> You are arguing over ****.
> 
> Y shaped sticks with rubber that shoot rocks, this is what it began from.


Actually, he did ask about buying a fake or clone. There is only one place to buy a new SPS, and the price is not negotiable.

If we are arguing over shit, why are you joining?

Oxen pulling a primitive cart. That is where the Ferrari began.


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## zippo (Jul 9, 2014)

Henry in Panama said:


> zippo said:
> 
> 
> > Sharpshooter asked where to get a sps, he didnt ask about clones and fakes and he didnt ask about the ethical view of buying a clone nor about the sps patent.
> ...


I am not supporting any "side" of this argument. I am saying that both sides should tune it down.

On his original post he did not ask about it, another member brought it up.


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

zippo said:


> I am not supporting any "side" of this argument. I am saying that both sides should tune it down.
> 
> Sharpshooter asked where to get a sps, he didnt ask about clones and fakes and he didnt ask about the ethical view of buying a clone nor about the sps patent.
> 
> ...


LOL! I didn't know it was possible to "tune it down" by stirring the pot.


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## you'llshootyereyeout (Apr 5, 2014)

treefork said:


> Jeff
> 
> Is today another inclement weather day ? I see your on the forum again . I'm sure there is a child that can use your help instead of being on the the forum . This topic is not more important than teaching . Is it ? Remember . Your documenting your activity every time your here .
> 
> Are children are our future .


This is a pathetic. I'm embarrassed for you treefork.


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## JonM (Aug 17, 2013)

Third, & the motion passes. It's back to school for Treefork. :rofl:


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

OK, show of hands. How many think there is any reason to continue the feces flinging?


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## Alfred E.M. (Jul 5, 2014)

*This has been an interesting and entertaining thread. So what if sparks fly, it's part of life. If we were all zen masters, this would be one boring forum.*


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## SmilingFury (Jul 2, 2013)

Henry, what would you be doing right now if this thread had never existed?

... Go do that for a little while and come back after. Let's see if the sky is still falling.
This is just some colorful personalities interacting. We call this "fun". Side effects are smiling and occaisional laughter. We also get to laugh at ourselves. Very important IMO.

Advertiser sales will be fine. This is a spendy group at the very least.

Have a great Friday everyone. Everyone ( henry&tf included).

SF


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

SmilingFury said:


> Henry, what would you be doing right now if this thread had never existed?
> 
> SF


What a silly question. I would be looking for something else to use my Nazi moderator tactics on.


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## SmilingFury (Jul 2, 2013)

No,no,no, you dont get to be the victim here. You are a moderator. You also happen to be the only one who keeps referring to yourself or your actions as "Nazi".



SmilingFury said:


> Henry, what would you be doing right now if this thread had never existed?
> ... Go do that for a little while and come back after. Let's see if the sky is still falling.
> This is just some colorful personalities interacting. We call this "fun". Side effects are smiling and occaisional laughter. We also get to laugh at ourselves. Very important IMO.
> Advertiser sales will be fine. This is a spendy group at the very least.
> ...


Please don't edit my posts if you are going to refer to them. It changes the context to suit your comment, but it is not the gist of what I wrote , is it? My post clearly was nothing to get defensive about. I just meant maybe a break might give you a more moderate point of view. That is to say, the point of view of a moderator. Suggesting a perspective shift is not exactly calling you nor your actions a Nazi. I was not going after you. So here is my post above. Your version has a distinctly different feel to it no?


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

treefork said:


> Jeff
> 
> Is today another inclement weather day ? I see your on the forum again . I'm sure there is a child that can use your help instead of being on the the forum . This topic is not more important than teaching . Is it ? Remember . Your documenting your activity every time your here .
> 
> Are children are our future .


No, I worked all day, it was a long one. I was on the forum this morning PM'ing Henry and basically burying the hatchet till we lock horns again. With my phone it stays logged on unless I signed out. I assure you no young adult I am involved with at school was left in need. Its kinda creepy that you notice my time on the forum. You know what it's like to help young people as you have helped DangkungMaster restore his name on the forum. I'm still not sure what your motives are and why you keep bringing up my job. I have asked you openly and in pm. What exactly are you getting at and how does this help either resolve the debate or strengthen the side of the debate you are on?


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## SmilingFury (Jul 2, 2013)

CanH8r said:


> treefork said:
> 
> 
> > Jeff
> ...


Did he say Dankungmaster?


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

OK, guys, fun's over. I have removed most of my posts and some of yours. If anyone feels that any of my remaining posts are inappropriate, PM me and I will remove them as well.

I received an official complaint of personal attack of another member on another member, and have of necessity donned my moderator's hat. I found the complaint valid, and removed the offending posts.

I apologize to all of you. I violated my own rule of not allowing discussions to deteriorate into feces flinging. I won't make that mistake again.

Any further posts aimed at the man, not the subject, will be deleted.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Darn I just got another bucket of popcorn and a large soda.


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

Hey, there's a downside to everything.


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## quarterinmynose (Jan 21, 2012)

I believe there is room for distinction here.

Copying a specific design, and violating patent law is different in this specific situation. While I whole hardheartedly agree with those who wish to see the specific design in question respected and left to the original maker, I also have my own opinions about what has been determined by the patent office.

I ask that people recognize that the 'SPS' topic and the 'metal cored slingshot' topic are in fact two different things.

Please don't declare anyone an 'enemy' over such silliness(or over slingshots at all for that matter).

Opinions are what they are, we are all entitled to them. The internet is what it is, don't let it cause you to forget the real people on either end of your connection.


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## you'llshootyereyeout (Apr 5, 2014)

treefork said:


> CanH8r said:
> 
> 
> > treefork said:
> ...


Wait, this is your smoking gun? This is the foundation upon which you build your accusation? That a man was on an innocuous website that is equipped with a nanny filter during work hours. Something he denies and as far as I am awear you have no proof or reason to believe other wise. I hardly doubt that even if it were true (which he said it is not) it would even raise a single eyebrow. Your insistence that this is such a condemning fact undermines your position.


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## Arber (Mar 30, 2013)

Even if he is on his phone during class hours, it doesn't really matter. Im not siding with anybody here, but you don't know the details. He may have had a break at the time, or may have been giving a quiz or test. These are times I see as appropriate to be using a phone. I currently am in high school and see teachers using their phones all the time. It isn't something out of the ordinary for a teacher to be using a phone in school.

Edit: How did we stray so far from the topic? We went from the SPS to his personal life, perhaps we should get back to the topic?


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