# frameless discussion



## SJAaz (Apr 30, 2019)

Ok guys, been messing around with frameless. Using 117Bs, pouch on one end, and a strip of soft leather on the other.
This allows me to draw back even with my shoulder. (semi BF?)
Shooting gangster holding pouch so the bands line up vertically.
One of the problems I'm trying to solve is the height of the pouch hand. Tried just brushing the bands on my cheek. But it seems inaccurate.
Not like a fixed anchor like say corner of mouth. Also getting slapped on the cheek as the pouch goes by. Tried .17 bbs, but they seem kinda puny so moved up to .25 ammo.
Any advice as to my method would be greatly appreciated. Especially on a consistent way to find pouch elevation.
I suppose PF shooters with a long draw have the same problem.


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## jazz (May 15, 2012)

When we were kids we shot frameless exclusively. But if I remember well, we would stretch both hands almost equally apart, but rather low so that he bands did not go higher then the chest, which means no true aiming but you look at the target. Then we would release the pouch with a sudden swing, sometimes with the whole body, which includes large flip with the hand holding the front part of the rubber. This means that I have no experience with anchor points in this case and why not you try that also, who knows, maybe you like it?


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## MakoPat (Mar 12, 2018)

I am following this one.. I cannot offer anything.


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## SJAaz (Apr 30, 2019)

J5 and Chef where are you??
Struggling with the pouch hand elevation. Managed to hit my cheek,my thumb and twice on my pointer. Didn't hurt to much,using 177B office bands stretch nearly max. which puts the pouch about shoulder back.
First big puzzle, is pouch floating anchor elev.
second thing is... I've managed to turn my shooting hand to my left (ala Joey 5),'till I can't see where the band comes over, but now have no point of reference for aiming.
I'm missing something here...besides the can.


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## Grandpa Grumpy (Apr 21, 2013)

If the bands are slapping your cheek you anchoring too tight against your cheek. You should sense the bands more than actually feel them touch the cheek. When I am trying new bands I touch the cheek with good pressure then move the bands away. After the first shot I can still feel where the bands were on my cheek and adjust up or down depending if the shot went high or low. I hope this makes sense.


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## SJAaz (Apr 30, 2019)

GG... does to me, I'll try it. Thanks for the help.


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## Crazy Canuck (Dec 20, 2018)

Unfortunately, it's going to take some trial and error to fix your elevation. For me, I reference my knuckle of my shooting hand on target, and bands touch on my cheek bone with floating anchor. For reference below, aiming at the blue dryer ball on the dresser.










The reference on your shooting hand is more important than your bands on the cheek, as the elevation will change depending on distance to target, how wide you splay your finger/thumb on the shooting hand, etc. With some experimentation, you'll get a feel for it at different ranges.

Sounds silly but, in your mind you're not shooting frameless. Don't do anything differently in how you would shoot a PFS or other low fork OTT and you'll be fine 

For the cheek slapping as the bands go by, like GG mentioned lightly touch to the cheek, and watch how much you're tweaking. You could be over-tweaking the pouch.

Hope that helps


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

A little bush right now will chime in fully tomorrow, one thing I can say quickly is I prefer tubes for serious frameless shooting it flat works equally well just more fiddly imo. If anyone has some tuning they'd like to trade for some of my hand rolled ammo please inbox me! Until tomorrow guys, CHEF OUT!


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## SJAaz (Apr 30, 2019)

Crazy Canuck..

Alright! This puts me back in the hunt! Thanks all you guys.


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## Grandpa Grumpy (Apr 21, 2013)

Here is a video by Vol. He goes into detail about his frameless style. He has several videos about frameless shooting.


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

When i shoot pfs or framless, its basicly the same. My ank.point is band to the top of my ear. and i tweek to get around it. i hav tried lower ank.points but it resulted in cheek slaps, and they hurt with 9mm steel 80m/s.

/Uba


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## MakoPat (Mar 12, 2018)

I have learned here in this post & I am intrigued...but not enough to try this again. I need the frames as an intermediary device with my limited range of motion...

But man, I love this topic.

You're all maniacs just the same.


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## SJAaz (Apr 30, 2019)

We maniacs love you MP! ..In a manly way of course.


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## 31610 (Aug 20, 2017)

I am no expert only 4 months into this frameless thing but from what u r saying is your on the right track I started with bb and got hitting the bottom of the can not bad I think J5 put in black and white for me it’s like mounting a scope to a rifle it will be close but u have to fine tune it that’s the part that’s on u and practice just sorting it all out .I moved up to bigger ammo and tubes now and some days r better than others I was messing round last night with some 6mm hex nuts and a heavy can man the power is awesome near punched the nut into can sideways the tubes 1745 about 30 feet away did have couple misses but that’s how I seem to roll .Port boy


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

@Port Boy that's some serious juice on those last two photos gotta love frameless plus hex nuts, really drops the hammer. I'm running 2040 with a Dankung pouch and some 5/8" glass. Nothing wild but a very smooth draw and accurate as all get out - just ask the two sparrows I ran into on my morning stroll. 

Let the rubber hit the road lads ????????


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## 31610 (Aug 20, 2017)

Chef your a wild man  I did not have to much tube on hand only 1632 1842 1745 but I ordered up a couple more sizes just to get my feet a little wetter lol I need to get some 8mm steel in bulk my ammo supply is pretty random no consistency man I have a fear shooting them 16 mm marbles.Have u tryed shooting like C5 does over the middle finger I still have not gave that a go


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## MakoPat (Mar 12, 2018)

Oh, the good ole days when Pickle Fork Shooters were the avant garde of lunacy.

I have some 2040 tubes I can include in the "care packets" for Port Boy, BpChef, and MLI. should go out Saturday or Monday. Depending on my Friday schedule...


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## 31610 (Aug 20, 2017)

MakoPat said:


> Oh, the good ole days when Pickle Fork Shooters were the avant garde of lunacy.
> 
> I have some 2040 tubes I can include in the "care packets" for Port Boy, BpChef, and MLI. should go out Saturday or Monday. Depending on my Friday schedule...


thanks Makopat PB loves care packets i like some 2040 if u could but only need 16 inches thats one the sizes i got on order but being in canada takes 40 days and nights and a month of sundays to get to me ! cheers m8


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## SJAaz (Apr 30, 2019)

I need to check into the whole tube thing. Don't have any, never tried them. Seems like they would want to roll around on ones finger. Right now ,I'm shooting 177B rubber bands. Fine to learn with but I have ssBlack and TBG... In your experience, what would you guys recommend as far as taper with a 41" draw? The working length of my 177Bs is right around 30cm between the two pouches.


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

Port boy said:


> Chef your a wild man  I did not have to much tube on hand only 1632 1842 1745 but I ordered up a couple more sizes just to get my feet a little wetter lol I need to get some 8mm steel in bulk my ammo supply is pretty random no consistency man I have a fear shooting them 16 mm marbles.Have u tryed shooting like C5 does over the middle finger I still have not gave that a go


Thanks man I try lol. Seriously though you're going to love 2040, & I hear you about that crap with 8mm steel. Yea ive tried coverts method and it worked okay but I couldn't get much consistentcy. Honestly I shoot marbles frameless more than most anything else but I like steel too. Anyone who's hunted frameless full butterfly as I do will tell you it feels surreal when the shot connects - much more so than with a frame.



MakoPat said:


> Oh, the good ole days when Pickle Fork Shooters were the avant garde of lunacy.
> I have some 2040 tubes I can include in the "care packets" for Port Boy, BpChef, and MLI. should go out Saturday or Monday. Depending on my Friday schedule...


Ouuuh that would be very cool Pat! Also I have something to admit that may annoy some folks here: I was shooting full butterfly frameless for a long time before I picked up FB-PFS. I know that's hella backward but here's where it gets super weird: I can shoot mentos 5/5 from 10m frameless - I'm hunting accurate with my PFS, but I'm no surgeon. I've found true accuracy comes kn two flavours: raw practice coupled with simple kit and mindset I.e. Frameless Or, full kit with all available goodies I.e A S.E.R.E. with a light, lanyard, tapered bands with a pouch sized to your ammo & fibre optic reference bead. Either one achieves surgical hits with the proper applied technique, even if they generally suit vastly different tastes in shooters.

Frankly I feel like you can't truly say you're addicted to slingshots until you're willing to rosk your very body for your craft. Call me crazy - I like to think the Samurai would have approved of my mindset.


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## SJAaz (Apr 30, 2019)

Hey... you are never to old to scream in pain...


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## 31610 (Aug 20, 2017)

SJAaz said:


> Hey... you are never to old to scream in pain...


soon see eh haha i jammed myself once and no sugar coating it i jumped around cussing kicking for couple minutes it sucks :cursin: l


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

SJAaz said:


> I need to check into the whole tube thing. Don't have any, never tried them. Seems like they would want to roll around on ones finger. Right now ,I'm shooting 177B rubber bands. Fine to learn with but I have ssBlack and TBG... In your experience, what would you guys recommend as far as taper with a 41" draw? The working length of my 177Bs is right around 30cm between the two pouches.


I don't generally shoot tapered sets frameless, I use straight cuts of 3/4" cut to about 8" then trimmed according to the shooter. The only time I shy tapered flats frameless I was using my Chinese flatband ring and the worked pretty good but I'm just partial to straight cuts for frameless work.

For you guys looking to get serious about frameless here's what I recommend:get some clay and roll your own ammo to your preferred size. Roll LOTS. By a lot I mean sit down with a 500g block and don't stop rolling her until it's gone. Grab a beer and throw a movie on just get it done lol. Step two make two sets f whatever your shooting, keep one on your wrist and put the other one somewhere you can ALWAYS get to it if your other one fails or goes missing. This could be your glovebox, your wallet, your toolbox -get creative. Put your finished clays in a bowl near where you get prepared in the morning so you'll always throw a mittful in your pocket on the Wayne out - 15-30 shots. Remember how accurate this setup can potentially be and DONT LET YOURSELF GET DISCOURAGED. I'm aware this is easier said than done, but you must believe me when I say that cutting a sunflower stalk with a .44 lead ball so clean it stood still for a moment before it tipped over makes one feel almost superhuman. You too can achieve such results! If and when you do screw up, be it a day of poor accuracy or an especially evil hand hit, remember these words and recall this image, Chefs hands got slapped up GOOD leaning to do this and that's OKAY. No ones watching, make as many mistakes as your ego can handle, and remember my frameless fellows: we're a rare breed.


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

SJAaz said:


> Hey... you are never to old to scream in pain...


Ceraintly not! As my old Sensei used to say, "Pain sounds the same in every language!"


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## SJAaz (Apr 30, 2019)

There comes a time when punching the like button just aint good enough. That is how I feel about guys.

Thanks to all of you.


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

I hear that brother, this place amazes me all the time lol.

Sling on!


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## 31610 (Aug 20, 2017)

I almost got this nut into can need more power hehe ????


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

That's just plain nuts haha awesome man, what kind of tubing again?


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## 31610 (Aug 20, 2017)

BushpotChef said:


> That's just plain nuts haha awesome man, what kind of tubing again?


missed that one chef it's 1745 dankung .hey got some new tube in today some 204o and 1636 man something to be said about good tube so nice shooting some 6mm and 8mm.throws the ammo like a rocket


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

@Port boy that's some slick tubing there never had green before looking for some orange dub dub. Is both the 2040 and 1636 you've got there green? I've only ever seen 2040 in black green would be cool as heck.

Maybe a frameless rig trade is in order, different setups with different pouches & ammo with different means of holding the bands like rings & such - I'm getting many ideas lol!

Do you like to or have you shot flats frameless? I'm not a HUGE fan but you can get some silly speeds with long draw tapers and a frameless ring.


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## 31610 (Aug 20, 2017)

yep both r green nice stuff way better than the bargain tube i got .no never used flats yet .i like the tubes so far just cut to length and tie shoot. the green stuff is fast with 6mm and 8mm but i am not hunting just killing cans and spinners.Not sure i like a ring for shooting i hate rings dont have any  i got a magnetic ring in my order i dont like the feel of it either .but sure we could cook up a deal !


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

That's curious where do you order if (the green 2040) if I may? & yeah that's one of the reel benefits of tubes just cut em tie em and shoot em lol. You'll get curious and go after a pest critter at some point trust me you bag one critter frameless it's on from there haha. And I hear you about the rings I'm not a fan myself but they work pretty good, just another thing to try and like I said it allows for shooting tapered flats frameless which is a whole new ball game lol. Sending .36 lead over my hand from a 3/4"-1/4"x7.5" precise red set doing probably 280ish FPS was something I'd recommend lol. if nothin else it shows more viability of a frameless set for hunting.

Still, 1745 in a 18" length running a nice pouch and some marbles & a paracord sleeve basically takes the cake for me lol..


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## 31610 (Aug 20, 2017)

gzk is the place the only tubes i seen on site was the green ones different for sure .i might just make a frameless flat band with the two pouches but i have 4 rigs on the go now .the 1745 is getting old i retied it 2 times but the other 3 r pretty fresh


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

Port boy said:


> gzk is the place the only tubes i seen on site was the green ones different for sure .i might just make a frameless flat band with the two pouches but i have 4 rigs on the go now .the 1745 is getting old i retied it 2 times but the other 3 r pretty fresh


GZK no doubt I forgot about them forbidden a minute the two pouch rigs work great that's what J5 had me shooting for ages. I recommend 1/2" straight cuts of whatever you like to start I used TBG, and two Simple Shot standard pouches.


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

Also I have one set of 1745 that is straight up legendary. So I got some tubing from JRoger back in early 2018 & to make a long story short I made 6 frameless sets from the tubing I got right off the bat. One of those sets was 1745 with a warrior pouch cut at 21" and paracord sleeved. Well I shot all of summer 2018 with that set and still had plenty of power. It sat in my work bag as a backup sling for most of the time until one day I carved a maple wishbone natty, & had no other tubes on hand but remembered my rig. Well I snipped that and dressed the natty with it - without cutting and retying for longevity. All I did was add tube protectors.

Just yesterday, I sent a marble through both sides of a can from 10 paces with that natty and those SAME 1745s from early 2018.

Pretty insane to be I'd heard of it lasting several thousand shots but this is crazy lol.


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## 31610 (Aug 20, 2017)

The dankung I have busted twice now but I read that’s par to the course .I have ask couple people now what’s better and from what I am told gzk just losses power .One the guys I asked was Leo C and that fella is shooting like a animal lol


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

Haha yeah man me and Leo talk a bit here and there he's a good dude. Yeah he's not a fan of GZK tubes either but like their flats,I haven't tried their flats but I want to get some new tubes. Looks like SS has 1745 in black that's sweet I've only ever tried it in amber... *added to wish list * lol


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## SJAaz (Apr 30, 2019)

OH OH! got a little to ribald and got myself scrubbed! If so, I sure enjoyed the thread. Been nice knowing ya!


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## 31610 (Aug 20, 2017)

Not quite following ya m8


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

Oh boy.. what's happened now?


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## 31610 (Aug 20, 2017)

Got me chef ? I had look up ribald and still confused must from another thread ?


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

Lmao best I got out of it is he said something naughty and got his comment kablammed ????

Happy Halloween I guess haha


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## 31610 (Aug 20, 2017)

:angrymod: bad boy i guess :rofl: Happy Halloween to ya also Chef !


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

Rig I'm carrying right now:

1745 x Suede Warrior pouch
.45 Hornady lead balls (135 gr.)
3/4 butterfly
















Really putting the hurt out at 30-40'! Happy frameless shooting!


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## SJAaz (Apr 30, 2019)

BC.. I have been messing around trying to build a system that would relieve the stress on my pointer finger when shooting frameless. I'll let you know if I come up with anything news worthy. Be safe up there, virus and all.


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## MOJAVE MO (Apr 11, 2018)

BushpotChef said:


> Rig I'm carrying right now:
> 
> 1745 x Suede Warrior pouch
> .45 Hornady lead balls (135 gr.)
> ...


Nice to see you back in the house Bushpot!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## MOJAVE MO (Apr 11, 2018)

SJAaz said:


> BC.. I have been messing around trying to build a system that would relieve the stress on my pointer finger when shooting frameless. I'll let you know if I come up with anything news worthy. Be safe up there, virus and all.


SJAaz on a framless rig?? You got the Desert Fever?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## SJAaz (Apr 30, 2019)

MOJAVE MO said:


> SJAaz said:
> 
> 
> > BC.. I have been messing around trying to build a system that would relieve the stress on my pointer finger when shooting frameless. I'll let you know if I come up with anything news worthy. Be safe up there, virus and all.
> ...


Mo.. I have been drawn to the simplicity of frame less for some time now. Bushcraftchef and others gave me lots of advice when starting. And I actually got pretty decent at it. 3/4 butterfly. When I wasn't trying to shoot my ear off. But the stress of practice caused my pointer finger to quit. I could take the occasional shot to the knuckles or ear, but that never ending searing pain in my hand just whipped me. Some the older guys here know where of I speak.


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

MOJAVE MO said:


> BushpotChef said:
> 
> 
> > Rig I'm carrying right now:
> ...


Thanks man!



SJAaz said:


> BC.. I have been messing around trying to build a system that would relieve the stress on my pointer finger when shooting frameless. I'll let you know if I come up with anything news worthy. Be safe up there, virus and all.


Thanks man you guys be safe too! As to the index reliever, I've thought of something that I've yet to try but I think would do the trick well. Essentially it would just be a palm filler with a 'trigger' shelf for your index finger. The gap would be unaffected as the top of the grip would be concave. This would still be frameless Imo as the bands or tunes aren't attached to the device nor does the device have forks of any kind. This would merely be a posture aid. Here's some crappy pictures to semi-illustrate my point:
















Let me know what you guys think!


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## SJAaz (Apr 30, 2019)

BushpotChef said:


> MOJAVE MO said:
> 
> 
> > BushpotChef said:
> ...


I have been working on an idea similar and have been using Treeman's input. We may come up with something yet. Some of the problems we ran into are one this is Chris' busy time of the year with spring coming, and also he has never shot frameless so has a hard time picturing what I have in mind. On the up side, if he can see it in his mind, the man can build it.


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## Tree Man (Jun 30, 2016)

SJAaz said:


> Rig I'm carrying right now:
> 1745 x Suede Warrior pouch
> .45 Hornady lead balls (135 gr.)
> 3/4 butterfly
> ...


Nice to see you back in the house Bushpot!
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk[/quote]Thanks man!



SJAaz said:


> BC.. I have been messing around trying to build a system that would relieve the stress on my pointer finger when shooting frameless. I'll let you know if I come up with anything news worthy. Be safe up there, virus and all.


Thanks man you guys be safe too! As to the index reliever, I've thought of something that I've yet to try but I think would do the trick well. Essentially it would just be a palm filler with a 'trigger' shelf for your index finger. The gap would be unaffected as the top of the grip would be concave. This would still be frameless Imo as the bands or tunes aren't attached to the device nor does the device have forks of any kind. This would merely be a posture aid. Here's some crappy pictures to semi-illustrate my point:








52C0914D-34F5-46CE-8EEA-B9361260524C.png







09427093-6B75-482F-8B45-B88BCA59F0E4.png

Let me know what you guys think!
[/quote]
I have been working on an idea similar and have been using Treeman's input. We may come up with something yet. Some of the problems we ran into are one this is Chris' busy time of the year with spring coming, and also he has never shot frameless so has a hard time picturing what I have in mind. On the up side, if he can see it in his mind, the man can build it. 
I made a start on our first attempt. Pics soon.we might be onto something here fellas


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

treeman said:


> SJAaz said:
> 
> 
> > BushpotChef said:
> ...


I have been working on an idea similar and have been using Treeman's input. We may come up with something yet. Some of the problems we ran into are one this is Chris' busy time of the year with spring coming, and also he has never shot frameless so has a hard time picturing what I have in mind. On the up side, if he can see it in his mind, the man can build it.
I made a start on our first attempt. Pics soon.we might be onto something here fellas

[/QUOTE]

Exciting stuff fellas, keep Chef posted!


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