# Shooting Full Butterfly ?



## Hoss (Jun 3, 2014)

I've been shooting for a long time, and would like to learn more shooting techniques. 
I've been watching videos of people shooting full butterfly but they don't go into much detail about the setup.

I have a few questions before I get started.

1. How do you determine your draw length. 
2. Do you use lighter bands than when anchoring on your face.
3. I use the factor of 5 to get my active band length can I still use that or does that need chang.

Any advice pertaining to the full butterfly would be greatly appreciated!

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## High Desert Flipper (Aug 29, 2020)

Very glad you asked these questions, I am very interested in the answers you get!


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## AppalachianFlipShooter (May 9, 2020)

1) Draw length is calculated the same. Your draw length divided by 5 or 6. I have a 75 inch butterfly draw. I usually go about 575%, so my active length is 13 inches. 
2) same thickness latex, but half the taper width to achieve the same speed. For instance my short draw is 30 inches, and I use 5 inch active length for 600% with a 22-16 taper and .5 Celtic catty blue bands. For the same result in butterfly mode, I would use a 13 inch active length and a taper of 11-8. Increase the taper = increase draw weight and speed just like with short draw. 
3) Yes you can use your factor of 5 to figure band length 
For more information on butterfly shooting technique, please watch this video




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## Hoss (Jun 3, 2014)

AppalachianFlipShooter said:


> 1) Draw length is calculated the same. Your draw length divided by 5 or 6. I have a 75 inch butterfly draw. I usually go about 575%, so my active length is 13 inches.
> 2) same thickness latex, but half the taper width to achieve the same speed. For instance my short draw is 30 inches, and I use 5 inch active length for 600% with a 22-16 taper and .5 Celtic catty blue bands. For the same result in butterfly mode, I would use a 13 inch active length and a taper of 11-8. Increase the taper = increase draw weight and speed just like with short draw.
> 3) Yes you can use your factor of 5 to figure band length
> For more information on butterfly shooting technique, please watch this video
> ...


Thanks, great video!

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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

I would suggest that you try cutting your butterfly bands roughly the same width as your other bands and see how they feel to shoot. I suspect that you will find them to be not too bad. The longer bands feel easier to pull. I shot butterfly almost exclusively for a decade and for me the point was to maximize power. You might, if you’re already satisfied with velocity be able to step up your ball size a bit or keep the same ball and pick up a fair bit of speed.


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## High Desert Flipper (Aug 29, 2020)

Awesome video!


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## Sandstorm (Apr 5, 2021)

Brilliant. Thanks for this. Definitely something I’d like to try. Maybe sooner than I anticipated With good help like this from people in the know, we’ll see!


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## Island made (Aug 14, 2019)

I shoot full butter exclusively, don't be afraid to play around with tapers...that's half the fun! But here's my setup....5 elastic cut 3/4" to 1/2" 13" active. Or .65 elastic cut 3/4 to 3/8 same active. The .5 is my favourite, but the .65 is slightly higher performing with the greater taper but doesn't last as long. The .5 ss black has a super smooth draw and last forever. These are great hunting setups and I shoot 7/16" steel and 10mm lead with them. Haven't put the lead over the chrony, but the 7/16 steel travels at 260 to 290 FPS. And I've taken everything from squirrels to raccoons with that.

One thing I'll make mention is...there's lots of different releases you can do, and everyone prefers a different one, but whatever you do make sure you tweak the ammo slightly so it travels around your face. The tweak is by no means necessary, but if your not paying attention and you tweak the wrong way you will get a bloody reminder to check your form lol.


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## Hoss (Jun 3, 2014)

Winnie said:


> I would suggest that you try cutting your butterfly bands roughly the same width as your other bands and see how they feel to shoot. I suspect that you will find them to be not too bad. The longer bands feel easier to pull. I shot butterfly almost exclusively for a decade and for me the point was to maximize power. You might, if you're already satisfied with velocity be able to step up your ball size a bit or keep the same ball and pick up a fair bit of speed.


For me, I'm wanting power over speed.
Right now the setup I have has both, the bands that I'm using now are tapered 25mm to 22mm and 0.08mm thick, with a 6 3/8" active band length. I'm using 7/16" steel and 44cal. lead balls.

I think I'm going to try something a little less than full butterfly, say something like 42" and then work up from there to full butterfly. The reason being I've been having some trouble with my shoulder when I put my arm back behind me that far, so I want to work toward the full butterfly slowly. I can go back to 42" with no problems with my shoulder hurting.

How much power gain if anything would I get going from 32" draw length to 42" draw length?

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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

I've had a number of those "bloody reminders" Island Made mentioned. Bloody streaks across my cheek were always hard to explain to my patients. 
Instant feedback for your pouch release technique.


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## AppalachianFlipShooter (May 9, 2020)

Hoss said:


> Winnie said:
> 
> 
> > I would suggest that you try cutting your butterfly bands roughly the same width as your other bands and see how they feel to shoot. I suspect that you will find them to be not too bad. The longer bands feel easier to pull. I shot butterfly almost exclusively for a decade and for me the point was to maximize power. You might, if you're already satisfied with velocity be able to step up your ball size a bit or keep the same ball and pick up a fair bit of speed.
> ...


A lot. Seriously. Try semi butterfly first and then go up from there. It's what I did. Also, shooting butterfly ttf is considered insane. That's why I use to do it all the time lol

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## Hoss (Jun 3, 2014)

AppalachianFlipShooter said:


> Hoss said:
> 
> 
> > Winnie said:
> ...


When you shoot half butterfly how do you know when you reach the draw length that you cut your bands for?

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## High Desert Flipper (Aug 29, 2020)

I feel the urge to start climbing another learning curve getting stronger.....


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## ukj (Jan 10, 2021)

Hello,
I read and saw "off set ott" band tieing .
Would someone explain this idea please?
As a less than a year in new material sling shots and weeks into F butterfly I am using pinch pouch, bands straight cut 1.5 x ammo and 4.5 draw ratio.
After a few cheek scrapes getting slowly dialed in,
the learning is fun but floating anchor is not
very accurate yet. Trying to find the cheek
band touch to aide anchor placement.
ukj


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## ukj (Jan 10, 2021)

F Butterfly pouch grip ideas


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## boomslang (Jun 22, 2018)

OK slingfans,

I'am a ttf shooter but like my mini tarus ott.........Not as accurate w/it but like compactness of frame & not having to look ttf for long distance shooting....but not keen on the handslaps ' get too often..........

If I band it up for butterfly & flip it maybe that will be key to success ...........Question for you ol hippies- do I hafta cut my hair?

thanks, g


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

Boomslang, don't do anything with your hair. A couple dozen shots should clear things out of the way. 
Might not ever grow back.


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## Hoss (Jun 3, 2014)

Winnie said:


> Boomslang, don't do anything with your hair. A couple dozen shots should clear things out of the way.
> Might not ever grow back.


Oh my! 

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## StringSlap (Mar 2, 2019)

Hoss said:


> AppalachianFlipShooter said:
> 
> 
> > Hoss said:
> ...


You just get a feel for it. Try cutting some bands to 10.5". I use 1/2 - 3/4 like Shane does. Keep your frame arm straight and draw back. You'll feel how it stacks up and when you get close to maxing them out. I probably have a slightly different stop point from shot to shot (pretty close though) and definitely different with other brands and thickness of bands. Just play around. You don't have to come to the same exact draw length each time. You'll get the feel and sort it out quickly.Your target will never know the difference! My one big suggestion is to try every single pouch grip you see or can think of. Don't try to force yourself into a particular hold. Do what's comfortable and all will be good.


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## Hoss (Jun 3, 2014)

Thanks everyone, I greatly appreciate all of your help and advice!

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## KawKan (May 11, 2013)

Hoss said:


> AppalachianFlipShooter said:
> 
> 
> > Hoss said:
> ...


Determine your semi-butterfly draw before you cut your bands.

I keep my short draw pouch grip, and pull it back as far as I can while keeping my forearm/elbow in line with the bands. It feels consistent. The pouch ends up near my shoulder. I measured that with a tape measure, and cut bands for 1/4 of that length.


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## Hoss (Jun 3, 2014)

ukj said:


> Hello,
> I read and saw "off set ott" band tieing .
> Would someone explain this idea please?
> As a less than a year in new material sling shots and weeks into F butterfly I am using pinch pouch, bands straight cut 1.5 x ammo and 4.5 draw ratio.
> ...


Maybe this will help, it's how I setup my bands.
















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## cromag (Jan 17, 2021)

The offset band tying is a big help and Palmettoflyer has some great videos to help as well. If you pm him I'm sure he will oblige you with some sage advice. I have been moving to longer bands and find it very enjoyable. First using 10" bands drawn to about even with the elbow and then adding a couple of inches to get to about 3/4 butterfly at this point. No unfortunate issue to date although the beard and sideburn on the left side is a little thinner. It still doesn't feel as instinctual as drawing to the ear lobe nor as quick to find that sweet target spot but that may come eventually. Clearly worth the effort just for the added performance at so much less draw weight.


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## ukj (Jan 10, 2021)

Thx Hoss and Cromag for
photos and info!
In fact this is how I have always done my ott set ups.
I see it like this,
If forks upright when drawing troughs at band to pouch are facing up.
My F butterfly is coming along, finding just touching cheek at same place then pushing out just a touch before shot while keeping bands stacked as vertical as possible helps altitude, nice feeling when on target.
Really liking pinch pouch for learning as release seems cleaner, might be cheating but until I feel really confident will stick with it.
This forum is a god send for me and sure for
Many others, HUGE THX to all those in the know who post such helpfull info!
I am not sure will ever do the pouch tweak method as the few times tried had no accurate sensation
trying the intentional speed bump.
Off to hit the target hopefully.... 
ukj


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## ukj (Jan 10, 2021)

Simply because I thought over dinner why it is called off set when it is the same I put my reading glasses on and used computer instead of tiny phone screen to see photos to see they are not the same.
It looks to me like the right fork would have the trough up when frame upright whereas the left would be facing down so not the same!
So sorry for my oversight, but now even
more interested.
What benefit does this provide please?
And even now when I zoom both
Photos looks like the tying is more
like what I thought was for TTF?
Sorry for my ignorance but sure woukd like to
understand this fully.
I would like to be able to get my bands as straight
as possible as close to the pouch for longest sight
Line up for left, right control when aiming.
THX again
ukj


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## cromag (Jan 17, 2021)

Setting the bands in that fashion provides a bit of a twist to help clear the forks if you hold with your thumb toward your cheek which is the most natural position. After Monroe brought that to my attention I have had no frame hits shooting either OTT or butterfly and the grip and release is much more natural. Bear in mind , I don't shoot TTF or PF rigs.


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## ukj (Jan 10, 2021)

I might be way off base but really want
to understand "off set" band to pouch idea.
Is this it?
I tried to copy from above photos.
THX ukj


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## Hoss (Jun 3, 2014)

ukj said:


> I might be way off base but really want
> to understand "off set" band to pouch idea.
> Is this it?
> I tried to copy from above photos.
> THX ukj


No, take a really close look at the picture that I posted above. Notice how the bands go from the pouch to the forks, also look closely at how the bands are tied at the pouch.

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## Hoss (Jun 3, 2014)

ukj said:


> I might be way off base but really want
> to understand "off set" band to pouch idea.
> Is this it?
> I tried to copy from above photos.
> THX ukj


Here's a better picture of how the bands are tied to the pouch.
















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## ukj (Jan 10, 2021)

@Mr Hoss
THX for more photos!
Now even more confused though.
I read on B Hays P P info the O T T and T T F
Tie ideas.
It looks like you are using the ttf at the pouch
to an ott frame?
And maybe just my complete misundersranding
Where is the "off set"?
It looks like your "rolled" not "folded" band configuration thru the pouch holes offers better vertical band aiming alignment nearer to the pouch exactly what I hope to make.
I will have a relook at Pocket Preditor info to see why I missed.
I feel stupid having built, rebuilt vw engines and rc helis (parts measured to hundredths of milimeter and balanced thousandth of gram) that I cant get my head around this "off set"
System.
What is off set to what?
Anyway will try again to copy photos so kindly posted.
ukj


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## ukj (Jan 10, 2021)

From Mr Bill Hayes I think
So am I to understand that the shown ttf pouch tie
provides closer band aiming alignment using a ott frame?
And again sorry, what is off set?
ukj


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## Palmettoflyer (Nov 15, 2019)

Not sure I want to jump in here at the moment, as this is a subject that is endless and no right or wrong answer. But, I might try to shed a little light on the "twist" of this thread topic.

ukj, the pictures you posted in post #27 looks very interesting and I have never tired that. Looks like it has some merit and might be fun to try. The topic of OTT and TTF band and pouch tying is as old as slignshots themselves. Nathan of Simple Shot has proven in a competition years ago that it really don't matter in respect to the flight of the ammo. So it all comes down to simple personal preference. It is all about how you like to do it, and how you like the way the bands look when you are aiming.

In the classic description of pouch ties, yes what ukj presents from Bill Hayes is what or how Bill Hayes suggests that these methods could be used. The better description would be to call this a half fold and a tri fold attachment methods. No one will say one is better than the other, again this is personal preference. What many of us have noticed is that the tri fold will offer some variations in what the bands look like when attached to the frame. So really, the goal is to attach your bands so they look good. No one wants to be caught in public with twisted bands!

Point one, don't call it the OTT method or the TTF method. Call it band is half folded, or band is tri folded.

Point two. As Hoss and Cromag described it as "Off Set", others would call this band attachment as the "Arturo Pre-Turned" method. As I like to call it, this is the "No Turn" method. With the bands tied to the pouch using the Tri Fold method, Fold the pouch in half and lay it on a table. For Left Hand Hold shooters, the Top Band, goes to the Right Fork Tip, and Bottom Band goes to the Left Fork tip. Reverse for Right Hand Hold people.

Why do all this? It keeps your band very flat for aiming with an OTT frame. There is absolutely no twist component when you hold the pouch to your cheek and the thumb nail is flat on your face. This is a very solid and repeatable position for good pouch release. This works well for OTT gappers with short bands and for butterfly shooting with PFS frames.

Hoss' picture above with the bands on the FUG are attached this way. Here is one more picture of my Conus with the bands laid out about to be attached. Again, note that the pouch is folded in half.


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## cromag (Jan 17, 2021)

It really has nothing to do with attaching the bands to the pouch but how they are attached to the forks. Simply put , instead of having the bands form the "V" when drawn with both inside edges angling down , the lower band is rotated 180 degrees toward the upper so they lay flat at the forks when drawn.


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## Hoss (Jun 3, 2014)

cromag said:


> It really has nothing to do with attaching the bands to the pouch but how they are attached to the forks. Simply put , instead of having the bands form the "V" when drawn with both inside edges angling down , the lower band is rotated 180 degrees toward the upper so they lay flat at the forks when drawn.


This is a picture from post #32, it looks to me if the bands are not attached to the pouch like in the picture they would not be aligned flat with each other, looks like it would have to have a twist in them if not tied like the picture. That's just my way of thinking.










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## ukj (Jan 10, 2021)

@ Mr Palm flyer
Your points explain a lot THX!
Yes to terms half and tri fold.
Yes to method called Arturo flat not "off set"
(Still see NO off set)
Yes to getting longest flat vertical bands for best aiming, closest to pouch as possible!
My idea one half fold up the other down was just
an attempt to replicate Artuto flat but misunderstood, no intensional innovation intended.
Going to tie a tri fold Arturo flat one now as test.
BUT...
I see no difference between FUG and Conus lay out from above picts???

Could someone post photo with forks up , pouch horisontal and open a little
to show how they connect to pouch under slight tension please?
Even better frame in gansta style, pouch tensioned 
With finger inside fold horisontal.
Who would have thought attaching rubber to leather and wood could be so complecated?
Shout out for the help! 
ukj


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## ukj (Jan 10, 2021)

Got it, fully understood.
Photos with colors to hopefully see better.
Funny, after all this fun learning note that I grip pouch
Fold horizontal not vertical so two fold zo ott
Provides straighter band alignment, but at least
got the concept!
Again BIG THX to all for kind words, great forum!
ukj


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## ukj (Jan 10, 2021)

Photo for me to
See well


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## Hoss (Jun 3, 2014)

ukj said:


> Got it, fully understood.
> Photos with colors to hopefully see better.
> Funny, after all this fun learning note that I grip pouch
> Fold horizontal not vertical so two fold zo ott
> ...


Alright, I believe you got it! 
Happy shooting!

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