# Sticky  Return to Sender shots



## Tobse

Hi Guys

i have already 6 RTS shots so far

two with 8mm

one with 13mm

one with 20mm

two with 25mm steel.

only one hit me. I have luck with the other 5

when you consider how many shots I've taken, it is not much. and i have to say 4 of them was with crazy bands. (8mm was with targetbands)

The two 25mm backfire shots are the most dangerous and powerfull back shots i had. i have luck, nothing happened to me and i have good recordings as well, thats just fine.

this is why i want to show you how it looks if a 100+ Joule shot came back to you!

My luck was that i shoot sideway with flip Style so the ball went sideways past me and hit the wall behind me.

i hope you enjoy this video


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## Tentacle Toast

Great video, Tobse, thanks for posting it! Glad you didn't catch em' back too hard (good thing you had on your eyewear). Another beautiful sling too, by the way...


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## Arturito

Thanks Tobse for sharing a demonstration on WHAT NOT TO DO going beyond reasonable limits, even you, a very experienced shooter mastering your fist grip release !!! ... you were REALLY LUCKY to stay alive ... please stay safe man !!!


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## Arturito

Tentacle Toast said:


> Great video, Tobse, thanks for posting it! Glad you didn't catch em' back too hard (good thing you had on your eyewear). Another beautiful sling too, by the way...


That eyewear would NOT PROTECT ANYTHING at that power, 80ft/lb shoot in the eye or the head would put your eyewear deep inside your skull !!!


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## SHTF Slingshots

Arturito said:


> Tentacle Toast said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great video, Tobse, thanks for posting it! Glad you didn't catch em' back too hard (good thing you had on your eyewear). Another beautiful sling too, by the way...
> 
> 
> 
> That eyewear would NOT PROTECT ANYTHING at that power, 80ft/lb shoot in the eye or the head would put your eyewear deep inside your skull !!!
Click to expand...

If anything it would make it worse.

Broken plastic shards and a steel ball would not be fun at all.

I shoot less powerful bands and at a further range, means I'm much safer.


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## Henry the Hermit

Shtf Slingshots said:


> Arturito said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tentacle Toast said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great video, Tobse, thanks for posting it! Glad you didn't catch em' back too hard (good thing you had on your eyewear). Another beautiful sling too, by the way...
> 
> 
> 
> That eyewear would NOT PROTECT ANYTHING at that power, 80ft/lb shoot in the eye or the head would put your eyewear deep inside your skull !!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If anything it would make it worse.
> 
> Broken plastic shards and a steel ball would not be fun at all.
> 
> I shoot less powerful bands and at a further range, means I'm much safer.
Click to expand...

Range has nothing to do with RTS (Return to Sender). When the ball and pouch reach point where the ball would normally leave the pouch, it doesn't, but continues on in the pouch, stretching the bands away from the shooter. Then it comes back and leaves the pouch in the shooter's direction. Less powerful bands do make you safer. Everyone needs to remember that at high power levels, a slingshot can become dangerous, and mistakes that cause fork strikes and fliers with normal power can endanger the shooter and/or bystanders. Even if you're strong enough, don't try what Tobse does unless you are very sure you know what you are doing.


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## kobe23

i would say the centering hole in the pouch is too big, which catches the ball with the same hole when it was supposed to leave the pouch.


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## SHTF Slingshots

I thought the shots were bouncing back.
You learn something new every day.


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## Charles

Thanks for the cautionary videos. I just wish we had a more definitive account of what causes RTS to occur.

Cheers ...... Charles


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## Henry the Hermit

kobe23 said:


> i would say the centering hole in the pouch is too big, which catches the ball with the same hole when it was supposed to leave the pouch.


My theory is that the ball is too large for the pouch and/or fork gap, and the pouch flips over instead of butterflying open at release point. I've shot small caliber balls that would almost fit through the centering hole and never had a problem.


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## Tobse

Here is my Therory:

using the video material I could find that the ball began to spin and has probably wrapped in. This is probably happening at release, they got a shove when release. Because of the high mass of the ball, the bands have to rotate.

the RTS with 8mm balls passed as I shot with 90 degree rotated leather. Since I no longer do, I had no more.

I can not imagine that too wide central hole can hold the ball. the leather has to rotate to keep the ball.
I think The ball can not be so bad stuck in the hole. If the leather is not rotated in any case they go out. There is so much power.

so i think the problem was the Release! it is hard to get a fine release with that much draw weight.

The 20mm ball is no problem because the mass is only half they cant rotate the strong bands if they get a shove at release.

so i don´t shoot the 25mm with that heavy bands any more. i shoot so much with that big balls and weaker bands without any problems at 45 m/s because the release was just fine.

(i use google translator for a few words i hope it work)


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## Arturito

Henry in Panama said:


> kobe23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> i would say the centering hole in the pouch is too big, which catches the ball with the same hole when it was supposed to leave the pouch.
> 
> 
> 
> My theory is that the ball is too large for the pouch and/or fork gap, and the pouch flips over instead of butterflying open at release point. I've shot small caliber balls that would almost fit through the centering hole and never had a problem.
Click to expand...

I am thinking the same theory, given that this are rather "slow" shoots and very heavy and bulky ammo, the pouch can slips upward or downward ammo upon a bad release, now as ammo has big inertia and the band + pouch is I guess less the halve in weight and has clearly less inertia and a lot of stored energy, with the sudden jump over the ball the empty pouch will accelerate the bands+pouch and surpass the ammo speed waiting to intercept it and bringing it back ...


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## Btoon84

wow, you're lucky. glad nothing bad happened to you. that's freakin' scary. with a projectile that large, it would have done a job on ya!


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## Tobse

it looks like smal ammo need a fine release for accuracy and big haevy balls need a fine release because RTS. ?



Btoon84 said:


> wow, you're lucky. glad nothing bad happened to you. that's freakin' scary. with a projectile that large, it would have done a job on ya!


This is why it´s better to have some fun with targetshooting  this is also what the slingshot loves at most.


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## BCLuxor

Similar to what Henry posted I believe the pouch under normal conditions opens like the flaps on a cardboard box but in the case of RTS I think the ammo being large stops the pouch fully opening, again in normal conditions on the return the pouch closes back on itself and in the case of the RTS the large ammo gets taken back toward the shooter.

EDIT if I could dig out the original film from my .gif in my sig the opening of the pouch becomes apparent also this video from Joerg shows the motions.

skip to the 3min 49 mark


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## PorkChopSling

Thanks Tobse for the video, I am working my way up to heavier ammo so it's a good thing to be aware of that, and thanks Luxor for the Joerg video, ideas and concepts are starting to form better in my brain.


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## JetBlack

Zero for me thank goodness


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## Flatband

Man, I have to say I have never had that happen-at any speed. I have had bounce backs,and fork hits, but never where a ball stayed in the pouch and came back at me. That is interesting and very scary! I am hoping it doesn't happen to me or anyone else. Don't need that mess!


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## Henry the Hermit

Here's a brutal RTS.


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## FWV2

I've shot a bow all of my life and by the looks of the vids he's doing whats called snatching! right at release he rapidly drops his grip hand and arm! in the slow motion sections of vids. you can see this.

Watch the vids and see the bow that is caused in the bands. i think this would pull the top band and pouch over the top of the ball and forward momentum would roll pouch completely over at the end of the bands follow threw. catching the ball and sending back at shooter!

just my guess? " remember I'm a newbe!" hahahahaha!!


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## Knotty

I agree that the pouch must be rotating such that it is in front of the ball preventing release. Then as the band springs back the pouch is now behind the ball, relative to the ball's direction.

Scary stuff.


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## Danny0663

WOW Tobse ... :bowdown:

Glad you're not injured ... 100+ J to the face would really, really suck.


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## stej

What do you @Knotty & @Tobse mean by rotating? You mean rotating in the direction towards? First I thought you were talking about rotating left-right (right side of pouch to left prong and vice versa) - but that doesn't make sense imo.


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## Knotty

stej said:


> What do you @Knotty & @Tobse mean by rotating? You mean rotating in the direction towards? First I thought you were talking about rotating left-right (right side of pouch to left prong and vice versa) - but that doesn't make sense imo.


My theory is that the ball is rotating and taking the pouch with it so that the pouch ends up at least partially in front of the ball preventing its release. A lot of people have commented over time that RTS can happen when the centering hole is too large and I believe that's a major factor. Not that the pouch stays behind the ball and the grip of the hole prevents release, I believe the ball has too much energy for that to happen, but that the large hole allows the pouch to grip the ball too well so if the release technique causes rotation the pouch can rotate with the ball. Hopefully my crude illustration helps explain.





  








Return to Sender Theory




__
Knotty


__
Mar 20, 2013


__
2



Theory as to how a slingshot can send a ball back towards the shooter.


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## NightKnight

This sort of problem might well be fixed (or at least reduced) by attaching a mono-filament line to the pouch. The line would extend back to a wristband, and would be no longer than the length from the fork to the release point. It would prevent the bands from getting extended in the other direction.


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## All Buns Glazing

Well that's maybe the scariest thing I've ever seen. I'm glad you seem to have isolated the technique that was causing this, man.

I don't think we have a badge for blowing your brains out with a slingshot, so there's no point in trying!


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## stej

NightKnight said:


> This sort of problem might well be fixed (or at least reduced) by attaching a mono-filament line to the pouch. The line would extend back to a wristband, and would be no longer than the length from the fork to the release point. It would prevent the bands from getting extended in the other direction.


Good idea. Have you tried that? Or saw anybody using that?


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## NightKnight

stej said:


> Good idea. Have you tried that? Or saw anybody using that?


Nope, the idea just came to me when I posted it.

RTS shots are a problem for people that do bowfishing. So, the line is attached to a sliding ring on the shaft of the arrow, and the ring is pushed twoard the tip. If the cord catches for some reason, the ring will slide up the shaft, effectively absorbing the inertia and preventing a RTS.


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## Tobse

Knotty said:


> stej said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you @Knotty & @Tobse mean by rotating? You mean rotating in the direction towards? First I thought you were talking about rotating left-right (right side of pouch to left prong and vice versa) - but that doesn't make sense imo.
> 
> 
> 
> My theory is that the ball is rotating and taking the pouch with it so that the pouch ends up at least partially in front of the ball preventing its release. A lot of people have commented over time that RTS can happen when the centering hole is too large and I believe that's a major factor. Not that the pouch stays behind the ball and the grip of the hole prevents release, I believe the ball has too much energy for that to happen, but that the large hole allows the pouch to grip the ball too well so if the release technique causes rotation the pouch can rotate with the ball. Hopefully my crude illustration helps explain.
Click to expand...

i think you illustration is the seccond step, the first step is that the bands get twistet. I think you can see it in the GIF animation pretty much that it started to turn. (if your internet slow, it need some time to work)



NightKnight said:


> This sort of problem might well be fixed (or at least reduced) by attaching a mono-filament line to the pouch. The line would extend back to a wristband, and would be no longer than the length from the fork to the release point. It would prevent the bands from getting extended in the other direction.


This will be a very effectiv method against RTS! i talked about this with Jörg when we build the Slingshotcannon.

but a 1 inch steel ball with 110 Joule will be also a hard hit for the line and your wrist! but way better than a back shot. This should be testet by someone will be interesting how it works just for the science.


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## Henry the Hermit

NightKnight said:


> This sort of problem might well be fixed (or at least reduced) by attaching a mono-filament line to the pouch. The line would extend back to a wristband, and would be no longer than the length from the fork to the release point. It would prevent the bands from getting extended in the other direction.


Someone, can't remember who at the moment, showed how to do it with a rubber strip between the pouch and drawing hand as a curative for handslap. Should work for RTS as well.


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## mopper

Jörg Sprave shows this in one of his earlier vids. With a very thin strip of rubber.


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## NightKnight

Henry in Panama said:


> Someone, can't remember who at the moment, showed how to do it with a rubber strip between the pouch and drawing hand as a curative for handslap. Should work for RTS as well.


I'm not sure that a thin strip of rubber would absorb enough energy to prevent the RTS....


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## NightKnight

Although, it might be enough to keep the pouch from sliding around the projectile.


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## Tobse

I have made 3 Vids with more than 100 Joule that´s enough for me so far.

but if someone want to made one as well, he must simply keep a few things.

- made sure you have a fine release

- think about safety! Shoot sideways, use a slingshot with metal handprotector and so on.

- make sure no one stand in the line of fire and backfire.

- shoot with flippstyle.

and so on.

BTW, sometimes it happend with butterfly bands that you have a double RTS! this means the pouch keep the ball and shot him back beside you and behind but keep him one more time! this means the Ball shot in front again and slaps you in the back or on the shoulder from behind! this happend to Jörg with a 25mm steel in my cellar.

And to my friend even two times with smaler ammo. I havent such a double RTS so far.


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## Henry the Hermit

mopper said:


> Jörg Sprave shows this in one of his earlier vids. With a very thin strip of rubber.


Yes, thank you.


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## Henry the Hermit

NightKnight said:


> Although, it might be enough to keep the pouch from sliding around the projectile.


For power shots it should be stronger than what is shown in Joerg's vid. The rubber should be a bit shorter than draw length so it would start applying reverse force on the pouch after acceleration, but before reaching the forks. This should stablilize the pouch and prevent it flipping.


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## Popcorn

I never would have thought it could be so dangerous to shoot a slingshot, but it sure looks like it!

Does an RTS only happen when you are shooting with enormous power bands?


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## AnTrAxX

No, def. not.

I had a RTS with 11mm Steel once. Luckily i only shot with tripple-black...sadly it exactly hit my larynx.

Hurt a few days...i don´t want to look like a pussy, but that little bugger hit me like a truck and my first thought was "oh, oh, that might turn out bad"...and i lost faith a bit...because i haven´t found any clear mistakes yet. Might be an unclean release...or the pouch might have been a little bit too big...but i cant be sure, haven´t done anything different then all the other times.


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## Popcorn

@AnTrAxX: Triple black is not a very high power?

Somehow this doesn't sound too good!

If we are not sure what causes an RTS, then we can't be sure to correct it.

I wonder if there are more than a handful of people who do this thing of tying a safety strap to the back of the pouch?


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## Tentacle Toast

I'll bet the chick who caught the watermelon with her face would've appreciated a mono-filament line, resh! Does anyone know what came of her?


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## Imperial

Tentacle Toast said:


> I'll bet the chick who caught the watermelon with her face would've appreciated a mono-filament line, resh! Does anyone know what came of her?


i wouldnt doubt it if she has a fear/phobia of watermelons .


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## ZorroSlinger

I had RTS incidents with Gobstopper ammo hitting the front edge wood frame of my indoor catchbox and ricocheting back hitting my head, chest, shoulders ... the candy can have some 'stinging' effects. I know, not as 'dramatic' as the more lethal steel & lead ammo!


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## Popcorn

ZorroSlinger said:


> I had RTS incidents with Gobstopper ammo hitting the front edge wood frame of my indoor catchbox and ricocheting back hitting my head, chest, shoulders ... the candy can have some 'stinging' effects. I know, not as 'dramatic' as the more lethal steel & lead ammo!


I think that would simply be called a ricochet or bounce-back, rather than an RTS. Of course, I'm not saying that can't be dangerous and hurt you!


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## All Buns Glazing

ZorroSlinger said:


> I had RTS incidents with Gobstopper ammo hitting the front edge wood frame of my indoor catchbox and ricocheting back hitting my head, chest, shoulders ... the candy can have some 'stinging' effects. I know, not as 'dramatic' as the more lethal steel & lead ammo!


Hey Zorro, make a visit to the "Embarassing ricochet stories" thread


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## ZorroSlinger

All Buns Glazing said:


> ZorroSlinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had RTS incidents with Gobstopper ammo hitting the front edge wood frame of my indoor catchbox and ricocheting back hitting my head, chest, shoulders ... the candy can have some 'stinging' effects. I know, not as 'dramatic' as the more lethal steel & lead ammo!
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Zorro, make a visit to the "Embarassing ricochet stories" thread
Click to expand...

LOL ... I am not alone! I feel validated!!!


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## dgui

Have had a RTS Shot and I lost a nail. That is when I figured the pouch was too soft, too long, and the ammo cannot be a hex head nut.


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## Tobse

dgui said:


> Have had a RTS Shot and I lost a nail. That is when I figured the pouch was too soft, too long, and the ammo cannot be a hex head nut.


ouch... I hope you're doing well again !

i had a unlucky RTS more than a year ago and lost a tendon but it´s all good again. with all other RTS i have luck so far.


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## dgui

That was about 3 years ago I think and it took 6 months to heal up and get a new nail. Damn that hurt so bad I nearly went down the only thing that hurt more or as much is when my thumb got crushed by a 4 pound hammer against a brick wall. That took a year to heal up. OUCH!



Tobse said:


> dgui said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have had a RTS Shot and I lost a nail. That is when I figured the pouch was too soft, too long, and the ammo cannot be a hex head nut.
> 
> 
> 
> ouch... I hope you're doing well again !
> 
> i had a unlucky RTS more than a year ago and lost a tendon but it´s all good again. with all other RTS i have luck so far.
Click to expand...


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## primitive power slingshot

*I'M LIVING PROOF OF HOW DANGEROUS RTS CAN BE. I HAVE HAD 3 THE FIRST 2 JUST A GOOD THUMP IN THE RIBS THE THIRD LANDED ME IN THE HOSPITAL FOR SURGERY. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IF YOUR HAVEN'T SHOT BUTTERFLY DON'T!!!! The 5/16 steel ball struck me inside the arm pit sinking 3 inches deep resting aginst my top rib which stopped it from going deeper. heres a picture just after surgery.*






IF YOUR GOING FOR SPEED STUDY IT, DO YOUR HOME WORK, MATCH BANDS TO AMMO, USE A GOOD POUCH AND BE SAFE.


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## Btoon84

Holy crap primitive! That sucks. Wow. Wow dude.


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## NightKnight

Here is a radical thought that popped into my mind today. What if wrist flipping contributes to RTS shots. Go grab one of your slingshots, and flip your wrist. The pouch comes up and over the fork tips in a circular/radial movement, which could cause the ball to not release because it is held in place by a slight centripetal force.


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## Tobse

I am with you! get shot is very nasty. The speed made something like a shock to the body...



dgui said:


> That was about 3 years ago I think and it took 6 months to heal up and get a new nail. **** that hurt so bad I nearly went down the only thing that hurt more or as much is when my thumb got crushed by a 4 pound hammer against a brick wall. That took a year to heal up. OUCH!
> 
> 
> 
> Tobse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dgui said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have had a RTS Shot and I lost a nail. That is when I figured the pouch was too soft, too long, and the ammo cannot be a hex head nut.
> 
> 
> 
> ouch... I hope you're doing well again !
> 
> i had a unlucky RTS more than a year ago and lost a tendon but it´s all good again. with all other RTS i have luck so far.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

It can be a reason with slowly heavy balls, i have seen slomos with fast bands, you can not flipp your wrist so fast, the ball is always faster... but with heavy balls and Butterflyshooting it could be possible



NightKnight said:


> Here is a radical thought that popped into my mind today. What if wrist flipping contributes to RTS shots. Go grab one of your slingshots, and flip your wrist. The pouch comes up and over the fork tips in a circular/radial movement, which could cause the ball to not release because it is held in place by a slight centripetal force.


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## mopper

NightKnight said:


> Here is a radical thought that popped into my mind today. What if wrist flipping contributes to RTS shots. Go grab one of your slingshots, and flip your wrist. The pouch comes up and over the fork tips in a circular/radial movement, which could cause the ball to not release because it is held in place by a slight centripetal force.


That's just what I thought when I first saw Tobse's vid - he violently whips his whole slingshot arm downwards at the same moment he releases the pouch and I suspected that that would cause the ball to be accelerated in a slight curve which would prevent the bands from getting slack enough to ever properly release the ball. He said it was not so and he knows more about slingshots than I do so I am not in a position to argue, but I still try to hold my slingshot arm as steady as I can while the shot is underway ((and for a second after, too - an old marksmanship trick that keeps you fom getting sloppy with your shots)


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## primitive power slingshot

Btoon84 said:


> Holy crap primitive! That sucks. Wow. Wow dude.


yeah it did


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## lexlow

erm.... did anyone else notice in tobse video when tapered and un-tapered were both fired, same draw, same ammo, same pouch, that although the point of the video was to point out the speed difference, if you watch the silhouette of the bands and pouch as they travel off screen, the un-tapered bands pouch is wide wide open, but the tapered bands pouch is almost wrapped around the ammo even beyond the catapult, even though the shot was a success, perhaps rts is actually an unavoidable problem of using tapered, or at least the taper is very important in the equation for solving this problem i think.

the part i'm on about is at 3:06


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## ash

Some idle speculation:

Rusty ball - is it too grippy? Holding on to the pouch?

Talc - Could it be helpful to dust the inside of the pouch and band ties with talc to prevent them sticking and holding the ball? Stretched rubber does like to stick to other stretched rubber and perhaps the band ties are "holding hands" a little bit.


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## DonNg

I have had the same thing happen to me many times when using heavy ammo. I changed to a larger pouch and the problem went away. Still, I get very wary whenever I shoot heavy ammo.


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## stej

lexlow said:


> erm.... did anyone else notice in tobse video when tapered and un-tapered were both fired, same draw, same ammo, same pouch, that although the point of the video was to point out the speed difference, if you watch the silhouette of the bands and pouch as they travel off screen, the un-tapered bands pouch is wide wide open, but the tapered bands pouch is almost wrapped around the ammo even beyond the catapult, even though the shot was a success, perhaps rts is actually an unavoidable problem of using tapered, or at least the taper is very important in the equation for solving this problem i think.
> 
> the part i'm on about is at 3:06


Well spotted! Maybe tapering is another factor that one have to take into account.


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## joseph_curwen

Scary!

i had many hand slaps, fork hits, but never had a RTS.
Hope it will never happen to me, and as allways, be safe!


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## squirrel squasher

onyly had mine using when useing rocks and ghetto pouches. thes pouches are a sort lenth of string and duck tape. The string forms loops on both ends and the tape covers the middle but not all of it. the tape was too smalland sent a rock back at me


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## ruthiexxxx

I have to admit that this thread is making me think very hard about the 'MORE POWER' aspect of my shooting. It's fun shooting 1" lead or 40gramme lead fishing weights but, unless I can suss out definitively what causes RTS and guard against it, I think I might cool it a bit....before an RTS head hit puts me out of the game altogether ! I jolly well LOVE this sport and want to carry on for a long time.

I've just been observing what a mere 10 gramme hexnut can do to a mobile phone...shot from one of my mildest SS. Do I really need to go much beyond that ??? Maybe 16mm lead might be a reasonable compromise. Anything that wouldn't go down from one of those will have to be taken with an arrow. Fortunately they don't seem to RTS and, now I'm making much stronger ones, the risk of them shattering on send-off should be over.

Sorry to seem a wimp but I am enjoying life way too much to want to take major risks without VERY good reason


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## Jaximus

I definitely wouldn't call you a wimp for being cautious, ruthie. This is a hobby, not a gladiatorial arena. No reason to take risks here.


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## lexlow

i tend to find i get rts when bands are longer, say for butterfly style and mainly when the pouch is to small. so i avoid that combo and all is good.


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## All Buns Glazing

Primitive Power, that's the first I saw that and I didn't know someone had been so seriously injured on the forum before!

It does highlight an important fact. Is a small, hand held slingshot something you want to be getting 80+FPE from? I accept it's a "because we can" kinda thing, and it's fun to push the envelope, but there is a ceiling in our knowledge of this stuff, and when that ceiling is pushed too far without knowing basic things like what causes RTS, someone could get severely hurt.

I think it's something that people need to consider and some real precautions should be taken if RTS are happening to your multiple times. I mean, if I'd had TWO return to senders, I'd be radically changing something about my setup.


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## ash

lexlow said:


> i tend to find i get rts when bands are longer, say for butterfly style and mainly when the pouch is to small. so i avoid that combo and all is good.


Same here now that I think about it. Perhaps the combo of long bands and big ammo calls for wider forks to give the whole sling room to pass through without tangling?


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## ZorroSlinger

Seeing Tobse video posted here and some of his other ones, of his power butterfly shooting, that is *hella scary* stuff! The sound & extreme power of that ammo flying and if RTS ... . Torston also shoots power butterfly style and it does look elegant & graceful. Much practice & experience which makes it look fluid. Butterfly not for me with maybe one exception ... if there were special slingshot head/face protection gear and titanimum hand shield, I might, maybe, sort of , think about attempting butterfly.

I found this from old post at forum (I think Tobse posted it). I know it looks kind of funny, but hey, if it can help prevent puncturing your face/head ....










Or maybe a more streamlined lightweight face/head protection gear that has cool factor styling too?  ....


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## All Buns Glazing

The Butterfly of the Opera. I love it.


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## NaturalACE

I am glad I came across this post about RTS...With my first SS just a few weeks ago, I had this happen. I had some very strong tubes on, set for OTT (it was the manzanita fork that I posted in my gallery, but not the flat bands that it shows) and really too much for me. I picked up a very nice one inch egg shaped rock, and BAM! caught it right in my side :blink: . I though I was going to keel over. Needless to say it left a serious bruise that took about 2 weeks to go away. I almost stopped shooting after that, but got smart with lighter bands. It still scares the crap out of me to pick up larger ammo and use stronger bands because it really was painfull. After reading through the thread, I am still not sure of the cause. I thought maybe it was using tubes for OTT shooting. I am glad I didn't stop, but that first shot after the RTS was nerve racking. Either way I didn't stop and haven't had it happen since using lighter bands. :thumbsup:


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## lexlow

i agree with the nerves after an rts, but weather or not you feel confident about what you think an rts is caused by, just change the set up and know that the odds are probably in your favour (probably 

i still ignore my own theory as the seemingly bad combo also yields better power i find, i guess its relative, more power, more risk.


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## benzidrine

I would like to share what I believe solves this problem. Forgive me for the ghetto setup I wanted to show what I meant clearly and a pouch setup for this is less visible so I used a normal pouch tied quickly.










The backend of the pouch has office rubber tied to it so as enforce release upon firing. In it's relaxed state this causes it to bow backwards.

When folded for firing:










It stretches along the back of the leather pouch. When the slingshot is fired the office rubber acts so as to ensure the leather folds out. It isn't a lot of added force in the equation but it seems to make a big difference.

You would think it would make it make grip strength harder but the difference seems to be negligible. I am thinking about adding some small string loops to the back to hold the rubber in place to prevent it falling over the face side but I haven't so far as this has never happened in the real world (I'm going to start though seems like only a small addition of work to prevent a safety incident). As with any new idea I can't guarantee its safety but what I can say is that I am now after doing it, unwilling to fire powerful slingshots without it.

It's a rubber assisted release, I like the idea that a slingshot problem can be solved with more rubber.


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## AnTrAxX

I´d love to see highspeed footage of that!


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## JetBlack

Ive only seen/heard of RTS shots on flats, anyone know of one with tubes?


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## Sunchierefram

JetBlack said:


> Ive only seen/heard of RTS shots on flats, anyone know of one with tubes?


Actually, yes. Happened to me once. I'm not sure what happened to make it come back but it did. A little welt is all I got from it though.


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## Old Salt

Guy on you tube does that with a rifle . Knocks his ear defenders off.


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## Tex-Shooter

Most return to sender events that I have had revealed to me were by flip shooters. this causes the bands to swing out and the centrifugal force causes the shot to remain in the pouch too long. when it starts back it releases it. I have never had this happen to me and I am very glad! -- Tex


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## capnjoe

I think he hit the wooden upright directly in front of him. You can clearly see it move in the second shot.

I no longer shoot at water bottles with their caps on for much the same reason. Ricochet.

Forgive me if this has been mentioned, I didn't bother to read all of the comments.


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## squirrel squasher

My bands were cut too long and drawn too short.took a smack right in the middle finger


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## Sunchierefram

Well, that is going to leave a mark.


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## romanljc

I have had fork brushes before. Had times where the rock i no hit the bands but luckly the rocks went forward but in a totally different direction. My guess is it a combination of things that makes backfire happen. Not centering the ammo or bands not centered on fork and to long a band set and or crazy long draw length. always try to shoot the same exact way .


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## DogBox

kobe23 said:


> i would say the centering hole in the pouch is too big, which catches the ball with the same hole when it was supposed to leave the pouch.


...And possibly 'too soft pouch-leather' "holding on" and not opening-up and releasing...? Those balls 'did' look a bit rusty...


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## Jammy Dodger Todger

I had a marble RTS and land in my coat pocket. Now that's a trick shot


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## Peter Recuas

Knotty said:


> stej said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you @Knotty & @Tobse mean by rotating? You mean rotating in the direction towards? First I thought you were talking about rotating left-right (right side of pouch to left prong and vice versa) - but that doesn't make sense imo.
> 
> 
> 
> My theory is that the ball is rotating and taking the pouch with it so that the pouch ends up at least partially in front of the ball preventing its release. A lot of people have commented over time that RTS can happen when the centering hole is too large and I believe that's a major factor. Not that the pouch stays behind the ball and the grip of the hole prevents release, I believe the ball has too much energy for that to happen, but that the large hole allows the pouch to grip the ball too well so if the release technique causes rotation the pouch can rotate with the ball. Hopefully my crude illustration helps explain.
Click to expand...

I agree completely and think it can be multifactorial


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## Dubliner

Wow I'm just getting into slingshots and I'm wondering if i should stop. that looked like being close to getting shot


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## wll

I have been keeping my tubes about 8 inches long and use a 5/8 wide pouch. even though I use some heavy ammo, shoot push pull and try my best to use ammo that matches the strength of the tubes. My lighter faster tubes do not shoot my 214-314gr ammo.

wll


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## omanico

WoW never would have thought of

Return to Sender!

you learn something new on here everytime.


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## BockBorg

I think you nailed it fvw2. He whips his hand left and down before the release is complete. Poor release mechanics unfortunately, you're supposed to retain posture until your projectile hits its target. At least that's what I learned from archery


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## James Carpenter

I know this sounds crazy, but after an RTS to the throat I changed my mental image from one of pushing the forks (encouraging an early flip) to pulling the pouch with the forks. This seems to encourage a natural flip without trying to flip it.


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## Js77

Had that happen to me with the center hole being too big!


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## Jolly Roger

I have experienced zero problems shooting the Alley Cat. Other frames yes. But the Alley Cat seems to be designed to eliminate such problems of RTS, fork hits and hand slaps for the beginner shooter. The forks are wide enough and high enough to ensure that the pouch and ammo gets through the forks. Even the pinch grip of the Alley Cat does not put the hand in harms way. I'm beginning to think that the Alley Cat is the cure all for bad shooting habits yet might encourage a safer slingshot experience hence making the Alley Cat the best slingshot for both new and experienced shooters. I would like to design/make an Alley Cat clone that has flat band clamps on it.


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## BushpotChef

This might just be a perfect illustration of what Knottys sketch showed. Watch just as the pouch reaches 3/4 forward (@ about 0:12) the bands twist and capture the watermelon just as it reaches full extension, then returns. That must've really sucked.

Sent from my SM-J320W8 using Tapatalk


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## BushpotChef

ZorroSlinger said:


> I had RTS incidents with Gobstopper ammo hitting the front edge wood frame of my indoor catchbox and ricocheting back hitting my head, chest, shoulders ... the candy can have some 'stinging' effects. I know, not as 'dramatic' as the more lethal steel & lead ammo!


We used to pop frogs with Gobstoppers as kids. We called em Frogstoppers. 

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## Phip Phill Eph

Tobse said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> i have already 6 RTS shots so far
> 
> two with 8mm
> one with 13mm
> one with 20mm
> two with 25mm steel.
> 
> only one hit me. I have luck with the other 5
> 
> when you consider how many shots I've taken, it is not much. and i have to say 4 of them was with crazy bands. (8mm was with targetbands)
> 
> The two 25mm backfire shots are the most dangerous and powerfull back shots i had. i have luck, nothing happened to me and i have good recordings as well, thats just fine.
> 
> this is why i want to show you how it looks if a 100+ Joule shot came back to you!
> 
> My luck was that i shoot sideway with flip Style so the ball went sideways past me and hit the wall behind me.
> 
> i hope you enjoy this video


Flipping the frame forward is fine when shooting but dragging your arm to the side and back towards you will increase the chances of getting rts.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Abenso

Never had one happen. Alot of forks hits and flyers, but none have ever come back

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## Cjw

Only ever had a fork hit with hammer grip Slingshot.

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## BushpotChef

Henry the Hermit said:


> Here's a brutal RTS.


This was the post I was referring to lol.

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## Randroid

While waiting for two bandsets from Bill Hays for my HTS - which really like the ergonomics of , I ordered a Torque from Simpleshot with looped 1632 Chinese tubes, about the weakest ones available I believe. Anyway, while trying to determine why I was putting holes in my bathroom walls above the catch box I received an RTS just below the knuckle of my left hand, the hand I hold the frame with. Even with the 1632 tubes and 5/16 ammo it made quite a depression and hurt like hell. I'm 72 and a noob but believe a slingshot can be an extremely dangerous weapon. I also carry and practice with a Glock 22 and am more conscious when shooting the Torque especially, but since the bandsets for the HTS arrived I'll be shooting it exclusively, after realizing I installed option $1 on the wrong side of the frame. These modern day slingshots are not to be trifled with !


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## Berkshire bred

Had one when I was about 14, shooting golf balls over 100 yards using full butterfly one came back in the pouch straight into my ribs. Knocked the breath out of me and I was curled up on the floor in agony. Confident it broke at least 1 rib and some very serious bruising. Strapped up my midsection to try and prevent bending the injury but refused to go to hospital or doctors about it. Pretty much gave up on silly big ammo after that mishap. Scary thinking back, could have been much worse.


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## Ubamajuba

I have had 2 rts with 9 mm in a row. New heavy double tapered tbg on my pfs. After seeing and reading this thread i know what i did wrong. I was afraid og the power in the bands. Without thinking about it my hand wanted to get out of the way. The hand started to drop before the bands are relesed. And as the drawing shows it traps the ammo and return it in a eliptical trajectory. First hit my ribs and gave a bruse. The other one hit my middle finger with some more power. My hand was numb and tingeling for a week. Is oki now only a small scar lett.







Now have anyone had a rts were safety glassets has saved you. When i see how much power there is in a 200 fps shot im having a hard time to envision how its gonna prevent anything.


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## gunslingster

Scary Stuff!


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## snydes

WOW - this is really interesting - I'm fairly new to the sport & have a question I hope somebody can help me understand. The common denominator seems to be RTS happens with high powered bands & for shooters that use the butterfly style. I'm still learning and use 0.7mm bands held to my ear lobe (3/8" or 5/16" balls) ... should I be worried about RTS with a simple factory Scout setup with Simpleshot bands (I'm still a novice, but I've improved alot in the last month - thanks to Charlie's video's, I seem to have eliminated frame hits completely & really gained accuracy) ? Or does this RTS phenomenon seemingly only happen for the guys that really chase speed with their setups ? THanks

John


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## Flyin Okie

While I don't have my sling going yet or a new one ordered, I did have one with the first go on an older recurve bow at 10 yards that I had picked up some time back.
I wasn't sure of the elevation to hold it (instinctual bow/no sights) and the arrow hit the beam holding the top of the ball. Causing it to ricochet back and smack the upper limb of my bow about a foot above my head as it tumbled to regain stability..,
Not my finest shot..,


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