# Getting a grip on a steel ball



## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

New steel ball that is perfectly slick does not stay put in a pouch without a formed pocket. Done some experimenting by taking some 1/2 inch and 3/8 steel ball that is new and very slick so much so that I can hardly pick them up and finger them into the pouch without dropping them so I got some white vinegar and put the shot in a cup and put enough vinegar to cover the shot. After no more than 15 minutes I emoved the shot and dried them. Now they have a grip to pick them up and they stay put in the pouch and no slip and this may solve some of the filer problems I hear about. I would think that if the shot stays put in the pouch where its place it will tend to stay on target for a better ride.


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## ZDP-189 (Mar 14, 2010)

I have never had any problems with slick ammo, but yes that sounds like a good solution (no pun intended).

If it was a knife I would recommend neutralising it to stop further oxidation. Seeing as it's ammo, it probably doesn't matter.

Actually, one thing I do with knives is phosphating. That involves sticking the steel in the oven and then spraying the acid on. It isn't neutralised and helps prevent corrosion.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

ZDP-189 said:


> I have never had any problems with slick ammo, but yes that sounds like a good solution (no pun intended).
> 
> If it was a knife I would recommend neutralising it to stop further oxidation. Seeing as it's ammo, it probably doesn't matter.
> 
> Actually, one thing I do with knives is phosphating. That involves sticking the steel in the oven and then spraying the acid on. It isn't neutralised and helps prevent corrosion.


Laser Hawk is the only steel ball that I have gotten that was not slick. Have purchased 3/8, 7/16, 1/2 from other sourses and they are very slick but not oily. I only vinegrete an amount I will shoot for the day and the ones that I have not lost I use a food grade oil a Silicote Reel Oil that I will put a light coat to keep it from further oxidation. l


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## Darb (Sep 14, 2010)

You're oiling your steel shot to prevent rust ?


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## whipcrackdeadbunny (May 22, 2010)

I don't want a sticky or slick steel ball.


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## Darb (Sep 14, 2010)

The only place my balls see lube is in the boudoir.


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## whipcrackdeadbunny (May 22, 2010)

Darb said:


> The only place my balls see lube is in the boudoir.


HA!


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## Darb (Sep 14, 2010)

In all fairness to Dgui, stainless steel ball bearings are technically 'rust resistant', rather than rust proof, and I've seen that they do indeed tend to form rust over time.

In general, there are instances when it's both very wise and advantageous to oil certain steel surfaces protectively, such as cold iron, cast iron, antique steel, and porous high carbon steel cookware, and high carbon steel knives, tools, and some antique swords ... particularly if you live in humid environs, near the ocean, or have a chronically damp basement/garage. _{I live near the ocean myself, and rust is a major problem, and requires careful preventative maintenance of all non-stainless rust-prone surfaces, particularly those exposed to regular heating which burns off protective oils and speeds the oxidative process}_.

Getting back to loose SS ball bearing ammo ... I'd be reluctant to consider oiling them to prevent the rust, because they'd attract dirt and be awkward to handle. My inclination would be to follow what I've seen experienced shooters do, which is to slow the formation of rust by simply storing them in a sealed container in a cool dry area, packed wiith something absorbant, and to gradually segregate the ones that begin to get rusty into a seperate container of ammo that can be used without the need for recovery (i.e., out in the woods).

Techno-geeks have the option of vaccu-sealing them in a large container fitted with a universal vaccum-sealing lid ... that'd slow the rust down by another order of magnitude.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Darb said:


> In all fairness to Dgui, stainless steel ball bearings are technically 'rust resistant', rather than rust proof, and I've seen that they do indeed tend to form rust over time.
> 
> In general, there are instances when it's both very wise and advantageous to oil certain steel surfaces protectively, such as cold iron, cast iron, antique steel, and porous high carbon steel cookware, and high carbon steel knives, tools, and some antique swords ... particularly if you live in humid environs, near the ocean, or have a chronically damp basement/garage. _{I live near the ocean myself, and rust is a major problem, and requires careful preventative maintenance of all non-stainless rust-prone surfaces, particularly those exposed to regular heating which burns off protective oils and speeds the oxidative process}_.
> 
> ...


Now HOL-UP Frank T Bake Beans, the balls do rust and I did not think any of slingshot balls were SS me thought they were at the least a type of crome since they are so slick and have such a shine. Now if a rust inhibitor would be desired I would think mincing and apple and putting that in a bag with the balls would cause the balls to get dark in color and this would prevent rust.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

before and after picture, vinegar gives steel shot a bite.


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## Mtnfolk Mike (Aug 23, 2010)

ha.. that's great.. you gave them a patina, which would definitely help prevent rust..


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## Wingshooter (Dec 24, 2009)

I have soaked them in water and painted them to get rid of the slick surface. I will have to give the vinegar a try.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Mtnfolk Mike said:


> ha.. that's great.. you gave them a patina, which would definitely help prevent rust..


When I buy 3/8 steel ball (Laser Hawk) from walmart they are already in a semi rough condition and to prevent them from rusting I mince either an apple or a potato and put the shot and the mince in a baggie and manipulate so that all the shot comes in contact with the mince. Leaving it in contact will turn the shot black and it will not rust.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Wingshooter said:


> I have soaked them in water and painted them to get rid of the slick surface. I will have to give the vinegar a try.


Try it for a minimum of 15 minutes and you wont be disappointed.

Im thinking of long term storing some in a baggie with the white vinegar in it just to see what happens longterm..


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## dragonmaster (Dec 24, 2009)

never thought of soaking my pellets sounds like a good idea.


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## Darb (Sep 14, 2010)

Ah, ok, my bad ... I was confused earlier in a related thread on the same topic (in which I mistakenly thought oil was involved). Mucho apologies.

Question: could the additional slickness some people are reporting be due to the fact that steel bearings are available in (a) a variety of spericity grades from different manufacturers, and {b} a variety of steels {ex: carbon steel, chromium steel, and stainless stell}, and that too fine a sphericity grade (esp if it's chromed) would probably feel very slick to the touch ?

One way to avoid that would seem be to buy a lower grade of sphericity (which also tends to be cheaper). However, if you've already got fine-sphericity shot, the chemical treatment seems like an ingenius and inexpensive workaround.

I'll keep my eyes peeled when I place my shot order in the next few days ... this was helpful to me. Thanks.









p.s. if any experienced buyers out there have a specific grade number to recommend, please post it !

EDIT: I'm guessing we should be looking for stainless steel, with grades in the 100-1000 range (lower is smoother, higher is rougher), and that finer grades typical of say, skateboard bearings (25 and finerr), are too smooth for slingshot needs.


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## haertig (Jul 30, 2010)

I thought these things were stainless steel. Yes, I know nothing is truely stainless. Maybe I'm spoiled living here in arrid Colorado. I don't think I've ever seen rust on anything I own. Not that I take any special care of things, it's just so dry here that rust isn't much of a concern.


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## Performance Catapults (Feb 3, 2010)

I always wax my vehicle before a long trip...better fuel mileage FWIW. My ammo will always shine...less resistance.


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## King Cat (Dec 19, 2009)

When I practice outside here in Northern Wisconsin (in in the winter), my ammo gets buried in about 2 feet of snow. In the spring I retrieve the ammo and it is rusted. Most people on this forum have a negative view of rust; I believe the rust may even be beneficial. The rust results in tinny pits on the surface of the ball. I think the pits act the same as dimples on a golf ball in reducing wind resistance thus making the ball go farther and faster.
Jack


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

I soaked several 3/8 steel balls overnight in a baggie with white vinegar. Poured out the vinegar and put the shot on napkins and it left a charcoal like residue. Dabbed them dry and they have a very nice complete grip surface. They look the color of charcoal grey. The feel just right in a pouch and ez to pick up rather than so slick. Perhaps in time they will begin to rust but if that should happen another rendevou in the vinegar will clean them up.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

haertig said:


> I thought these things were stainless steel. Yes, I know nothing is truely stainless. Maybe I'm spoiled living here in arrid Colorado. I don't think I've ever seen rust on anything I own. Not that I take any special care of things, it's just so dry here that rust isn't much of a concern.


There may be some stainless steel shot or bearings out there but one way to tell is shoot an iron skillet and if the shot gets a dent its likely ss. But I think some of the shot it polished and is cromed so they can be made cheap cheap cheap.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

King Cat said:


> When I practice outside here in Northern Wisconsin (in in the winter), my ammo gets buried in about 2 feet of snow. In the spring I retrieve the ammo and it is rusted. Most people on this forum have a negative view of rust; I believe the rust may even be beneficial. The rust results in tinny pits on the surface of the ball. I think the pits act the same as dimples on a golf ball in reducing wind resistance thus making the ball go farther and faster.
> Jack


No wonder your called The King Cat. That is one observation that managed to elude me. Then thats it Im gonna keep soakin my balls.
Thanks King Cat.


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## Tex-Shooter (Dec 17, 2009)

A shot from a roughed up ball has a tendency to spin more (because of friction with the pouch) when leaving the pouch, therefore makes the shot curve a little. In test that I run a while back, I decided for myself that a smooth ball shoots a little more accurately than a ball with a rusted surface. As you all know shooting a slingshot is all a bunch of compromises. You just have to decide what is important to you. Sometimes I shoot a square lead projectile (cut from a wheel weight) when hunting. I know that it is not as accurate as a round ball, but it is very deadly. -- Tex


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## ZDP-189 (Mar 14, 2010)

I have merged the various separate topics into one.


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## Darb (Sep 14, 2010)

I guess my sphericity hypothesis (re: different grades of smoothness) had no takers. Oh well. If I learn anything useful when I place (and receive) my impending order (probably 15 lbs of 3/8" 440c stainless, grade 100+), I'll make sure to post it to this thread.

If we can assemble of list of economical online suppliers of recommended brands/grades of each category of ammo, that might be a helpful resource to new members. I know it would have been helpful to me.

_Aside: We'd probably see less redundancy in threads if things didn't drop off the "view new content" page so quickly. A "view new posts" thread with a dropdown for timeframe would be great, but I'm guessing we dont have any s/w developers here who could do the mod.

_


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## Darb (Sep 14, 2010)

I found some more info on ball bearing grades and materials. Perhaps a split into a dedicated thread might be in order.

_Difference between different bearing grades: http://www.abbottbal...ision-balls.php
_
Corrosion resistance & Hardness of materials:










430 stainless in grade 2000+ looks looks like the best choice in the SAE4xx range (magnetic) of stainless formulations. 430 is slightly softer, but has better stain resistence than 440c. Now I gotta see if I can find then at a decent price. Something at or under $2/lb (roughly 128ct/lb) would be spiffy.

Info source: http://www.abbottball.com/products/


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## Sam (Jul 5, 2010)

Darb said:


> Ah, ok, my bad ... I was confused earlier in a related thread on the same topic (in which I mistakenly thought oil was involved). Mucho apologies.
> 
> Question: could the additional slickness some people are reporting be due to the fact that steel bearings are available in (a) a variety of spericity grades from different manufacturers, and {b} a variety of steels {ex: carbon steel, chromium steel, and stainless stell}, and that too fine a sphericity grade (esp if it's chromed) would probably feel very slick to the touch ?
> 
> ...


I only buy 2000 grade, I highly doubt anyone would be buying anything smoother than 1000 though, it would just be too expensive...


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## Darb (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks for the helpful tip, Sam ... I edited my post to change 1000+ to 2000+, per your suggestion.

No luck finding a retail source yet. Any suggestions on a source for an order of say, 15-20 lbs ?


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## Performance Catapults (Feb 3, 2010)

I get mine from www.royalsteelball.com. Not sure what the grade is, but they suit me fine.


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## Tex-Shooter (Dec 17, 2009)

I have only found three economical USA steel ball suppliers and two of them won't ship. Royal Steel Ball products are the best source that I have found hands down. There product for slingshot shooting is very good and you can get it in most sizes. -- Tex


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## Darb (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks Gents. 
I'm going to call Royal steel tomorrow and get quotes on the lowest grade of smoothness avail for chrome steel, 440c stainless, and 430 stainless, for 15-30 lbs worth (whatever's needed to hit a 'sweet spot' pricepoint for qty and shipping.
If anyone in the LI area wants a piece of the order, PM me.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Fired off about 50 of my get a grip vinegar treated 3/8 steel today and I do like the added grip but I limited the distance to 30 feet. I have a 2 inch stainles plate in a beeman pellet trap and had plenty of good hits. It may not have been enough distance to have a cure that I was able to tell. So far the rough surface seems to fly well for me. I have viewed Rufus Hussy shooting rocks which are very rough surface and even jagged edges but I was not able to tell if there were any rocks that did not fly straight. But he did use thick gum rubber and his bands were long and all of his shots that I saw were close shots. I would suppose if your shooting at slower speed and close a shot that might curve would not be evident in a given distance.


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## Performance Catapults (Feb 3, 2010)

Darb said:


> Thanks Gents.
> I'm going to call Royal steel tomorrow and get quotes on the lowest grade of smoothness avail for chrome steel, 440c stainless, and 430
> stainless, for 15-30 lbs worth (whatever's needed to hit a 'sweet spot' pricepoint for qty and shipping.
> 
> If anyone in the LI area wants a piece of the order, PM me.


Should be around $30.00 shipped to your door for 15 lbs.


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## whipcrackdeadbunny (May 22, 2010)

King Cat said:


> When I practice outside here in Northern Wisconsin (in in the winter), my ammo gets buried in about 2 feet of snow. In the spring I retrieve the ammo and it is rusted. Most people on this forum have a negative view of rust; I believe the rust may even be beneficial. The rust results in tinny pits on the surface of the ball. I think the pits act the same as dimples on a golf ball in reducing wind resistance thus making the ball go farther and faster.
> Jack


Does rust not poison meat?


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

whipcrackdeadbunny said:


> When I practice outside here in Northern Wisconsin (in in the winter), my ammo gets buried in about 2 feet of snow. In the spring I retrieve the ammo and it is rusted. Most people on this forum have a negative view of rust; I believe the rust may even be beneficial. The rust results in tinny pits on the surface of the ball. I think the pits act the same as dimples on a golf ball in reducing wind resistance thus making the ball go farther and faster.
> Jack


Does rust not poison meat?
[/quote]

You can clean the rust . Some peeps like to kill animals to eat with lead shot and I would rather eat something killed with a rusted steel ball rather than lead which is very poisonous/toxic. Taking antioxidants takes care of rust. People use to cook from cast iron pots and you are eating oxidised metal in your food and thats ok we need a little iron.


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## Jaybird (Dec 20, 2009)

The more powerfull the slingshot the smoother and rounder the ammo has to be for accurate shooting.Marbles will not shoot well in a powerfull slingshot.Some of them have voids in them.I have found this in some steel shot.Lead is the best for consistancy.my 2 cents.


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## Darb (Sep 14, 2010)

Jaybird said:


> The more powerfull the slingshot the smoother and rounder the ammo has to be for accurate shooting.Marbles will not shoot well in a powerfull slingshot.Some of them have voids in them.I have found this in some steel shot.Lead is the best for consistancy.my 2 cents.


This is a theoretical supposition (rather than experiental), but given the extremely short practical shooting range and low velocities of slingshots (when compared to guns), it seems to me that for round smooth type slingshot ammo, having a good mass to surface area ratio would be more important to their ballistic characteristics than any tiny surface variations (re: sphericity). In fact, I'd suppose that the aerodynamic differences between say, a semi-precision steel bearing of grade 2000 and a super-precision bearing with blemishes on the nanometer scale, would be functionally negligable in these circumstances ... whereas the difference between either of those and a glass marble of the same size (with or without minor inclusions) would be more pronounced.

Best mass to surface area ratios for slingshot ammo (decending order):
* Round Lead
* Round Steel
* Glass Marble

To exaggerate the point still further, imagine the difference between a smooth 1/2" ball of depleted uranium, and a smooth laquered 1/2" ball of styofoam. The shot with the greater M2SA ratio dominates, whereas blemishes on the order of 1/1000th inch (or much less) should be almost negligable at a mere 10-30m and 200fps.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

It seems that the original intent of the subject has branched out. The single point was to only give a simple reasonable remedy for slippery balls. I submit that my steel balls are slick in its pouch and the vinegar treatment causes some type of reaction to give the surface a non slick surface so that it stays put right were you place it once centered in the pouch. I do not see where it puts great voids or pits the surface of the steel ball. I got this idea because I have seen painters take a metal surface and wipe it down with white vinegar to give to prepare the metal surface so that it gives paint something to grap on to. So far my balls have not rusted but they have turned a grey charcoal like color but no pits and no rust. A good grip may equal a good hit.


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## Performance Catapults (Feb 3, 2010)

The greater the velocity, the more change will affect the performance. I'm no scientist, so I have idea at what point changes accur. The leather pouches I use have ample grip on the ammo, so I will continue to use shiney ammo.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

So true. A while back, I used to shoot these white 1/2" marbles that seemed almost weightless. I could shoot pretty accurately with my ordinary slingshots armed with 3/4-inch gum rubber bands and the tubes that came with my Jungle Hunter.
Then I built my copper-tubing gloveshot and armed it with double thin latex exercise bands that were extremely fast. Holey Moley, them marbles would come out of that pouch and fly anywhere but where I aimed and in crazy trajectories that looked like a baseball pitcher's screwball.


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## Darb (Sep 14, 2010)

Dayhiker said:


> So true. A while back, I used to shoot these white 1/2" marbles that seemed almost weightless. I could shoot pretty accurately with my ordinary slingshots armed with 3/4-inch gum rubber bands and the tubes that came with my Jungle Hunter.
> Then I built my copper-tubing gloveshot and armed it with double thin latex exercise bands that were extremely fast. Holey Moley, them marbles would come out of that pouch and fly anywhere but where I aimed and in crazy trajectories that looked like a baseball pitcher's screwball.


_Aside: I'm an analytical kinda guy, and this is just the way I think, so please ignore me if you find this dry or overly detailed.

_I'm guessing that's the result of 2 things:

* Marbles presumably have a worse sphericity rating than low grade (1000+) ball bearings, so when flying though the air, the longer the distance and greater the speed, the more those irregularities will have time to cause an increasing degree of unwanted/uncontrolled spin, and with the spin, a curved trajectory (think unbalanced gyroscope). The more irregular the spericity, and the higher the speed, and/or the longer the distance, the greater the resulting spin and curved trajectory.

* Steel ball bearings however, likely have a better degree of spericity, so there's a lot less tendency for unwanted/uncontrolled spin to be generated for the same amount of velocity and distance as for the marbles. The effect should also be further reduced by virtue of the greater mass to surface area ratio of steel over glass ... on the one hand, more mass for the same surface area means greater spin-inhibiting inertia, and on the other hand a lower surface area for the same mass means less area for the wind to act upon to impart spin. Either way, the result should be significantly less unwanted spin for the same velocity/distance. Lead, which has an even higher mass than than steel, would tend to fly even truer, for the same degree of sphericity and velocity. It'd also be the case that for a higher mass to volume ratio projectile, the less sphericity is needed to provide the same ballistic accuracy ... in order words, rougher-surfaced lead should fly approximately as true as a proportionally smoother steel of the same weight.

Anyway, as you said, marbles should be fine for short distances and modest velocities ... but for greater distances and higher speeds, you definitely want steel, and better still, lead, for the most consistent target grouping. At least, that's what simple physics says ...


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

I like shooting 5/8 marbles up to 50 feet they fly true and hit hard. But since I have been treating steel shot with vinegar I have now been shooting more steel than before. Now 3/8, 7/16 and 1/2 inch finally they have a True Grip and it makes a difference in my pouch. I wont be going back to plain slick steel any time soon. After the vinegret and once the steel shot is wipped off and dry. The final touch for me is safflower oil.


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## Darb (Sep 14, 2010)

> After the vinegret and once the steel shot is wipped off and dry. The final touch for me is safflower oil.


Ah, so I wasn't imagining things earlier ... you DO oil your steel ? Isn't that counter productive to the goal of making them less slick ?


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Darb said:


> > After the vinegret and once the steel shot is wipped off and dry. The final touch for me is safflower oil.
> 
> 
> Ah, so I wasn't imagining things earlier ... you DO oil your steel ? Isn't that counter productive to the goal of making them less slick ?


Safflower oil does not take away from the grip on steel balls. I put very little perhaps a few drops of oil in a baggie with fifty or so steel ball and I make sure all of the steel has been surface with the oil and then I pour them out on a few paper towels and dry them so whatever is left on the balls does nothing to make them slick. Safflower oil is not the same as say a petro based oil. My balls still have an excellent grip even with a hairs breath of safflower oil on them.


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