# More Speed with Half the Rubber



## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

On one of the hunting threads (Gunnar posted "Can't get away with body shots") I suggested that if he took his 1 inch straight cut band set and disassembled it and then took just one of the 1" strips, he could cut that single strip into two new bands that were tapered and that new band set (using 1/2 the rubber) would shoot faster than his 1" strips.

Out of curiosity I ran the experiment today. These are my results.

All shots were with 7/16 inch steel balls and the number represents the fastest shot from each group of 6. The tapered band set was cut from one of the strips from the 1" strip set after the 1" readings were taken:

1 x 13 inch straight cut band set: 184.9 feet per second

3/8 x 5/8 x 13 inch tapered set: 222.9 fps

Half the rubber with a 20% increase in speed and a much easier draw.

Latex is weird.

winnie

.


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## StretchandEat (Nov 11, 2015)

Interesting..what about with lead ammo


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## Byudzai (Aug 31, 2013)

I love this. Had me puzzling over the physics of tapered elastic all night.


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## honorary pie (Feb 12, 2015)

Man, I need a chrony..... a compadré, amigo, or friend wouldn't hurt either.


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Thanks for the tests, Winnie!
I continue to be amazed at how over-banded most guys continue to be. I and others have been preaching the benefits of lighter weight, longer draw, tapering, and the rest for years and yet it continues to be the overwhelming opinion that heavier means faster. Pulling a rope is a heavy draw, too, but you're not going to get any speed out of it!


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## NaturalFork (Jan 21, 2010)

M.J said:


> Thanks for the tests, Winnie!
> I continue to be amazed at how over-banded most guys continue to be. I and others have been preaching the benefits of lighter weight, longer draw, tapering, and the rest for years and yet it continues to be the overwhelming opinion that heavier means faster. Pulling a rope is a heavy draw, too, but you're not going to get any speed out of it!


This is a great statement. Completely agree.


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

The effect of latex on acceleration is really counterintuitive.

It is surprising how often shooters use overpowered bands not realizing that they actually shoot much slower than weaker bands. Latex is weird that way.

Many shooters, even experienced ones, are unfamiliar with just how sweet a well balanced rig really is. A properly set up slingshot and band set shoots smoothly and effortlessly. There is no hand slap nor harshness with the band smashing into or past the fork. It's almost as though you can feel the ball accelerating throughout the shot and then the release is smooth.

If I were shooting a band that was 1 inch wide (tapered or not) I wouldn't be thinking of anything smaller than 1/2 lead.

winnie


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## brucered (Dec 30, 2015)

Time to taper some bands tonight.

Thanks for the great read and suggestions.


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## CornDawg (Sep 27, 2015)

*"It's almost as though you can feel the ball accelerating throughout the shot and then the release is smooth."*

-very well put. thanks for this...


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## truthornothing (May 18, 2015)

Is there a formula for the best taper for the given ammo?


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## Ifab25 (Jun 5, 2013)

Winnie,

What about theraband (gold in particular)?? Interesting and good information.

Thanks for sharing!


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## Byudzai (Aug 31, 2013)

Winnie said:


> The effect of latex on acceleration is really counterintuitive.
> 
> If I were shooting a band that was 1 inch wide (tapered or not) I wouldn't be thinking of anything smaller than 1/2 lead.
> 
> winnie


1/2" lead is monstrous! So if you're shooting .44 cal lead, would a total band width of 0.8" be about the sweet spot? That's good news for this OTT looped flat thing I'm trying to design.


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

I should have mentioned that I was shooting TBG.

I have no formulas. I have just cut hundreds of bands and with time you begin to kind of get some ideas.

If I were shooting 1/2 lead (or 44cal.) I would be starting with 7/8 x 1/2 x 13 inches of TBG and see how it goes. 7/8 x 5/8 x 13 inches might be okay too though I'd probably start with the lighter ones first.

winnie


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## StretchandEat (Nov 11, 2015)

13 inches?.. what's your draw?


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## Bink (Feb 19, 2015)

Don't post much but shoot daily. This post right on. Shoot tbg 20mm std cut and .44 cal lead.Real sweet. Also shoot .35 and 38 cal lead with around the 1/2 in. Must start to try the taper cuts. Love this thread.


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## simple fool (Jul 18, 2015)

Yeah this is a good topic for sure. I also shoot long 12" latex bands cut at 1". (Full butterfly). I use a straight cut for durability but was wondering if I lost alot of speed with no taper. Looks like I will be making a set!


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

The gain in longevity is so marginal with straight cuts that there's no real reason not to taper them.
Flats wear out fast, there's no way around it. No magic bullet for improving band life.
Rubber is cheap, especially if you buy a lot at a time. If you don't want to buy a big roll of tbg or don't want to have to order band material online then wal-mart, Meijer, and Target all sell stretch bands in the exercise section. Get the "X-heavy" ones. They usually run about $9 a package and will yield dozens of bandsets. Take half an hour and cut 10-15 sets, tie a few up with pouches and put the rest in a Ziploc bag so that all you have to do is pull them out and tie on a pouch when the time comes.
Straight cuts are false economy.


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## honorary pie (Feb 12, 2015)

I admit being a chronic 'over-bander' , but with reasons, firstly I like to shoot a multitude of ammo with one particular slingshot, and you can't compromise with a weak bandset. I usually prefer straights, if a tear happens It's usually in a spot that allows me to retie that bandset and keep going. not preferable on tapered bands because they end up with different tapers once you retie which can affect accuracy greatly.. I also do notice tapers fail much sooner... the greater the taper, the faster the breakage. I think it's all subjective to what you want from a bandset.. you can definitely optimize a bandset using tapers and longer bands and stuff, but it's also increasing the governance of that slingshot's ability.


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## truthornothing (May 18, 2015)

I don't shoot butterfly. I wonder what the best taper would be for someone with a standard draw. I have lightened my bands due to basal joint arthritis in my right thumb. Currently using Theraband Black 1" to 3/4 taper and 6.5 usabe length. Doesn't seem quite zippy enough with 3/8 steel and I like to hunt.


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## Bink (Feb 19, 2015)

The last few weeks been playing with 5/8 st cut and .44 cal lead which I'm finding just on the edge on the low side. 5.5 in active and like to pull my rubber all the way. Thinking 3/4 to 1/2 might be magic with .44 cal lead. Is't this a fun sport?


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## BAT (Feb 26, 2015)

Thanks a lot for the info, very intreresting...


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## RyanL (May 22, 2014)

honorary pie said:


> I admit being a chronic 'over-bander' , but with reasons, firstly I like to shoot a multitude of ammo with one particular slingshot, and you can't compromise with a weak bandset. I usually prefer straights, if a tear happens It's usually in a spot that allows me to retie that bandset and keep going. not preferable on tapered bands because they end up with different tapers once you retie which can affect accuracy greatly.. I also do notice tapers fail much sooner... the greater the taper, the faster the breakage. I think it's all subjective to what you want from a bandset.. you can definitely optimize a bandset using tapers and longer bands and stuff, but it's also increasing the governance of that slingshot's ability.


For tears I tend to see the opposite. For me, straights will tear where ever making it impossible to retie. Tapers will always tear at the pouch. So as long as there is enough length I'll retie them. Usually can get 2-3 reties off a set of tapers. Just have to adjust my draw from semi-butterfly to archery anchor.

I typically shoot a 3/4" to 1/2" taper with 7/16 steel. Obviously, as I retie the taper isn't as dramatic but it still shoots well.


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

For me the biggest problem with over banding is that it is uncomfortable - it can even hurt. Harshness and handslap. The fact that means less velocity just makes it worse. In the past I used to use gloves with some sets and even made leather shields to protect my hands. It's even common to develop a flinch after a while. It's like shooting a big gun without flinching. It's hard and requires training.

Hand slap is one way to gauge the power of your bands. I you are getting hand slap then you have too much band for what you are shooting. Again, latex is counterintuitive. It will impart much more speed to your projectile if it can actually apply pressure constantly over a period of time. This is what makes tapered bands even better that properly powered straight bands. It makes no sense that a big band coming back to shape super fast and bringing a lighter ball along with it would impart less speed to the projectile. It's just the way it is. I can't wrap my mind around it.

I don't worry much about breakage either. When I cut bands I usually cut at least six sets at a time and I can switch out a pair quickly.

Most bands have a favorite ammo weight and most will allow you to vary the ammo weight up and down a bit without too much problem. The real problem is that many use bands that are way too heavy for the ammo that is being used.

All of this begs the question: If decreasing band strength increases ammo velocity then does increasing ammo weight increase velocity? I'm thinking that maybe I can take an over-built band set and, changing nothing but increasing ammo weight, increase velocity.

Truthornothing, what size ammo are you wanting to use? I'd like to try with some shorter bands too.


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## Byudzai (Aug 31, 2013)

Even if you got equal speeds with increasing ammo weight, you'd be showing pretty much the same phenomenon. Like the dilemma of inefficient bullet cartridges that blow most of the powder out the end of the barrel.


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

If speeds remained the same with increasing ammo weight that would be cool. Same bands and the same pull but with in increase in power (foot pounds). It could turn a band set into legitimate hunters.

I'm on my way to buy some .50cal lead right now. I want to sort this out a little bit better for myself.

I'll report back if people are interested.

winnie


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## truthornothing (May 18, 2015)

I



Winnie said:


> For me the biggest problem with over banding is that it is uncomfortable - it can even hurt. Harshness and handslap. The fact that means less velocity just makes it worse. In the past I used to use gloves with some sets and even made leather shields to protect my hands. It's even common to develop a flinch after a while. It's like shooting a big gun without flinching. It's hard and requires training.
> 
> Hand slap is one way to gauge the power of your bands. I you are getting hand slap then you have too much band for what you are shooting. Again, latex is counterintuitive. It will impart much more speed to your projectile if it can actually apply pressure constantly over a period of time. This is what makes tapered bands even better that properly powered straight bands. It makes no sense that a big band coming back to shape super fast and bringing a lighter ball along with it would impart less speed to the projectile. It's just the way it is. I can't wrap my mind around it.
> 
> ...


I like to hunt with 1/2" steel or .44 lead. So if you could come up with something for that, it would be great. ..The Theraband Black I am using with 3/8" steel and like I said it just doesn't seem zippy enough. Maybe its just me. Its a light draw though and doesn't irritate my arthritis as bad. I have them tapering 1" to 3/4 On a 6.5inch working length


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## Chuck Daehler (Mar 17, 2015)

It's been known for some time about the advantages of tapered flats over straight flats and I tried it too...sure did work nicely with less pull and noticeable flatter trajectory. The ONLY reason I still used untapered is I get more life out of a flat non tapered than a tapered BECAUSE I cut the bands at least an inch longer than I need, putting the extra at the forks of course, and when the pouch side breaks I pay out the extra and still use the band almost as much as a new one. In the long run it saves me rubber that I can't buy here. Otherwise if I lived in a country where I could get all the Theraband I want, I' taper too.

The argument against my treatise above is the tapered bands use LESS rubber as Winnie pointed out so if one is an el cheap-o like me, one can economise by tapering bands just as Winnie pointed out and proved with a chronograph.

If one hasn't a chrony I firmly recommend the free download called Audacity which is a sound editing program. With it you can know the time from release to target impact and pretty well figure the velocity from those two sounds and of course the distance from the slingshot itself, to the target. It likely isn't going to be as accurate as a real chrony but it works pretty well and for just simple research such as this thread suggests, it's fine...and is free. Frankly I love it. A real chrony is required for speed badges on this forum.

I like Byudzai's analogy to an over loaded cartridge blowing unburnt powder out the end of a gun barrel, comparing to muscle bands that don't perform as expected..velocity per lb. of pull. Overcoming momentum from a stand still for heavy ammo you do need some meat and potatoes behind the ball to get it moving if you use half inch lead (heavy round)...but a taper will zip it to a fast finish.

My draw is 31 inches, my cut unbanded TBG is 20cm, rendering about 18.5 cm (7 1/4") of actual stretchable elastic, 427%...anchor point under the ear.

Thanks Winnie for a really good bit of info.


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## Barky Bow (Jun 14, 2014)

Winnie said:


> If speeds remained the same with increasing ammo weight that would be cool. Same bands and the same pull but with in increase in power (foot pounds). It could turn a band set into legitimate hunters.
> 
> I'm on my way to buy some .50cal lead right now. I want to sort this out a little bit better for myself.
> 
> ...


Winnie I for one am very interested. Thank you so much for putting the time in to get the facts. I have read every thread I can find on this and as much as I understand I am also confused hahahahaha. 
I look forward to hearing what you come up with. 
Thanks again.
Clint


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