# how do you shoot? intuitive or aim ?



## gamekeeper john (Apr 11, 2011)

*how do you shoot? INTUITIVE "or" AIMING*​
*WHAT STYLE DO YOU SHOOT*

INTUITIVE (just look at the target)2151.22%AIM (look down the bands or aim with the catapult)2048.78%


----------



## gamekeeper john (Apr 11, 2011)

Just been watcing a few video's on youtube of various shooters, how do u shoot? aiming or intuitive?
I think intuitive is more of a talent were-as aiming can be practiced over and over again untill you get it right?

e.g. your brain needs to do the calculations if you shoot intuitive but if you aim you just have to look down the bands or use the fork as a sight, hope you know what i mean lol









Thats only my opinion and i'm sure everyone as there own opinion - cheers gamekeeper john


----------



## gamekeeper john (Apr 11, 2011)

forgot to say i dont think one style is better than the other, i understand that everybody as there own prefferance, i dont want to start a big debate over which is best lol - john


----------



## orion the hunter (Oct 4, 2011)

I know that if i think too long after im commited to the shot ill miss 80 percent of the time.


----------



## marcus sr (Jun 5, 2011)

instinctive,ain got time to aim,plus it fraustrates me if im aiming an i miss,pisses me right off


----------



## mckee (Oct 28, 2010)

i can do both just as well as the other but for small targets i have to aim


----------



## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Unabashed aimer.
I don't think "instinctive" shooting is more or less of a talent, it's just how different people shoot.
Like I always say, Bill Hays and Tex Herriman are aimers, so I'm in good company.


----------



## Northerner (Nov 9, 2010)

I use both methods. I shoot with instinctive/intuitive style when forks are upright and I aim with the top fork when shooting gangsta style.

Both styles are aiming. When I shoot sideways (gangsta), I deliberately and consciously index the fork to the target. When I aim instinctively, I rely on many years of practice that developed my subconscious to recognize when the picture looks right for the shot (arm & target positions). It's a "hand-eye coordination" skill that is developed through practice.

Cheers,
Northerner


----------



## gamekeeper john (Apr 11, 2011)

M_J said:


> Unabashed aimer.
> I don't think "instinctive" shooting is more or less of a talent, it's just how different people shoot.
> Like I always say, Bill Hays and Tex Herriman are aimers, so I'm in good company.


true, theres no mistaking bill hays and tex's shooting lol, probaly the best shooters on the planet









i think i might of worded it wrong lol, what i meant is aiming is all down to lining the frame up with the target and pulling to the same draw, but instictive shoting is brain calculaions, theres no lining up and thinking about it, both 2 totally different types of shooting, and i think both have there advantages and disadvantages, cheers john


----------



## atom (Jun 24, 2011)

i aim but i find instinctive more relaxing to shoot just not as accurate for me


----------



## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

marcus sr said:


> instinctive,ain got time to aim,plus it fraustrates me if im aiming an i miss,pisses me right off


----------



## skipman (May 1, 2011)

allways aim i think so any way.i must be aiming if i am trying to hit a tie rap at 21 meters look down the bands make sure there lined up look down the sniper sight and make sure nice release.


----------



## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

John you and a few others have taken it upon yourself to open this discussion so...
Understand one thing first. ANYTIME you consiously align something you ARE aiming. It doesn't matter if it's a soft focus or a hard focus, you ARE aiming.
I've had about enough of the little veiled insults and half assed superiority based remarks trying to act like "intuitive" is better than "aiming". There's been a LOT of recent examples of BS I've seen posted in response to your and other's "intuitive" style.

SOME of you guys with all your self proclaimed "intuitive" skills do impress me with your extremely close up timing and accuracy, but I don't think you can basically do the same thing where ONLY the target can be seen, which is EXACTLY what a true intuitive shooter could do.

You say you look at the target only, but still you see your slingshot in your peripheral vision, and you DO align to the center... which is why a narrower slingshot is more "intuitively" accurate for some. So you are actually aiming just a little different than some... it's called soft focus, and is used extensively in CQB. Take out the ability to see your slingshot in your peripheral vision and all of the sudden you're no different than anyone else.

Almost EVERY shooting instructor teachs target focus and concentration. Pretty much EVERY beginning shooter is first taught how to align and make use of the sights and THEN to focus on the target. The way I teach and practice is no different... What is different is I prefer and shoot better with the side shooting method where I only use one band to soft focus on and align, whereas you and some others use the slingshot with the forks more upward and center the target high and between.

One other thing, a lot of emphasis and "proof" is talked about in that small objects are being thrown up into the air and shot... and that's fine for an exhibition of timing and extremely short range accuracy... an interesting diversion. But it's dangerous in many ways, where the ammo lands, ricochets and wild shots... and it has little if no real world application. Heck I'm guilty of getting good at this too, as I do like to show off sometimes as well.... but....
When hunting, realistically almost every target is actually a static target and is a decent distance away when shot at, 30-75'... also, if wingshooting at birds, they're almost always further away than 30 feet... so practices using clay pigeons or similar sized targets at a decent distance where someone else throws is appropriate.
In short, if you can effectively hit with the first shot, that's all it takes... so whatever method of aiming that works best for you, forks up or to the side, is the best way.... but it's AIMING regardlass of which style you prefer to hold.


----------



## gamekeeper john (Apr 11, 2011)

Bill Hays said:


> John you and a few others have taken it upon yourself to open this discussion so...
> Understand one thing first. ANYTIME you consiously align something you ARE aiming. It doesn't matter if it's a soft focus or a hard focus, you ARE aiming.
> I've had about enough of the little veiled insults and half assed superiority based remarks trying to act like "intuitive" is better than "aiming". There's been a LOT of recent examples of BS I've seen posted in response to your and other's "intuitive" style.
> 
> ...


like i said in the beginning of this thread i dont think one is better than the other and didn't want to cause a debate over it, but you have to admitt "instinctive" and "aiming" are 2 totally different styles, thats all i wanted to get across !!!

and when i shoot i do only look at the target, feel free to browse my vids and check for yourself,

i do understand that if the catapult is in your view and you are looking at the target you can still see the catapult in your second view, but if thats the case there is no such thing as a instinctive shooter, wether your shooting a catapult, a bow or a gun you will always see it in you view, thanks


----------



## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

John in your initial comment you said you think "intuitive" takes talent, whereas "aiming" is just practice.
Don't try and act like you're not insulting me and many others... because you are.

I have seen NO advantages to your self proclaimed "intuitive" shooting and your "talent". Fast and accurate shooting can and is done by EITHER forks to the side or standing straight up.
The big difference for me is it's more "intuitive" to teach and shoot with the forks to the side as your line up and sight picture is a lot closer to what a firearm's is.

A SIMPLE method of determining whether you're truly shooting intuitively or not is to hang a sheet about mouth high, pull out and suspend the bottom so that it's all like a table... step up to the sheet and shoot with the slingshot under the sheet, not being able to see your slingshot. If you can still cut cards at 33' then you're an intuitive shooter... if you can't then you're not. Simple as that.

You'll find out very quickly, that you are indeed an "aimer".


----------



## gamekeeper john (Apr 11, 2011)

Bill Hays said:


> John in your initial comment you said you think "intuitive" takes talent, whereas "aiming" is just practice.
> Don't try and act like you're not insulting me and many others... because you are.
> 
> I have seen NO advantages to your self proclaimed "intuitive" shooting and your "talent". Fast and accurate shooting can and is done by EITHER forks to the side or standing straight up.
> ...


now u put it like that i couldn't it a can at 10ft if i was shooting from under a table lol, and i didn't mean to "insult" anyone, i just said what i thought, it seems that most the people in this thread voted that they are instinctive shooters aswell, my mistake


----------



## atom (Jun 24, 2011)

i think john is right on this one, for me its alot harder to shoot intuitive than aiming, and i wasn't offended what john said,its like throwing a ball your just looking where you want it to go!!


----------



## rubberpower (Aug 16, 2011)

Bill Hays said:


> John you and a few others have taken it upon yourself to open this discussion so...
> Understand one thing first. ANYTIME you consiously align something you ARE aiming. It doesn't matter if it's a soft focus or a hard focus, you ARE aiming.
> I've had about enough of the little veiled insults and half assed superiority based remarks trying to act like "intuitive" is better than "aiming". There's been a LOT of recent examples of BS I've seen posted in response to your and other's "intuitive" style.
> 
> ...


Bill thank you so much for posting that. I used to use the example of getting in a dark room and shoot at a glow in the dark sticker. We used to call it gap shooting because your secondary vision always knew where your bow hand was. The only reason I shoot fast is to overcome target panic.


----------



## Toddy (Oct 2, 2011)

For what it's worth i instinctively aim!
Personaly i don't think there is anymore 'skill' one way or the other. I also think it matters not one jot as long as you are enjoying your shooting. After shooting catapults for 40 odd years i still enjoy trying different styles, but I always return to what works for me when it counts. I enjoy watching all the videos of the better shooters 'showing off' their skills but I never feel inferior.


----------



## skipman (May 1, 2011)

if its not my game iam not playing


----------



## NaturalFork (Jan 21, 2010)

Well If you know me, I have said the same thing Bill Hays has stated.


----------



## Northerner (Nov 9, 2010)

Words are only useful when we know the definitions.

*Aim =* "to position or direct (a firearm, ball, arrow, rocket, etc.) so that, on firing or release, the discharged projectile will hit a target or travel along a certain path." or "*to point or direct a weapon or other object toward someone or something"*

We all use some sort of aiming method. We all use a technique to direct the ammo to the target. We align our body and arms. Some of us will deliberately and consciously use the forks as a reference point (conscious aiming). Other shooters will rely on practice sessions to develop a subconscious aiming method. These shooters will see their arms, hands or the slingshot in their peripheral vision. They practice enough to be able to work with trajectory. They learn to know how proper alignment will feel.

Do we look at the frisbee or baseball or horseshoe throughout the toss? Do we look at the golf club while we swing? It's done by alignment, hand-eye coordination, and much practice. Trajectories can be learned. No magic or voodoo involved. It's a skill developed through practice. As with all learned skills, some people will be better than others. Some shooters will be top dogs with the style they prefer.

I enjoy watching videos by Bill Hays, Darrell (dgui), M_J, Gamekeeper, and all the other shooters. It's all good stuff to watch! Keep it up guys. You all make this a great forum.

Cheers,
Northerner


----------



## Hrawk (Oct 25, 2010)

Very well said Northerner.


----------



## skipman (May 1, 2011)

if it hits the target who gives a !!!!


----------



## Hrawk (Oct 25, 2010)

skipman said:


> if it hits the target who gives a !!!!


----------



## skipman (May 1, 2011)

is this a site for women to **** each other your right he is wrong


----------



## gamekeeper john (Apr 11, 2011)

skipman said:


> is this a site for women to **** each other your right he is wrong


lol, i'v only said i'm a instinctive shooter (which i am), i'v just googled it and it says (quote)

The instinctive archery is based on a hand-eye-coordination. Only by concentrating on the target, the subconscious steers the angle of the bow arm as well as the side direction, until the flight path of the arrow is correct. The shot itself will come like automatically. Having reached the necessary shooting technique by training and intensive practising and so good shots are reproducible you may enjoy the hits!
The shot simply has another quality,

this is from google and thats EXACTLY what i do (angle the catapult and arm until the flight path is correct!)

i also do a LOT of hunting at night and have shot many rabbits / pheasants and ducks all head shots with just a tourch light, and not being able to see the catapult or anything other than the target,

sorry if i "insult" anybody but i am a instinctive shooter (FACT)

to be honest i'm a bit insulted myself by being called a "self proclaimed "intuitive" shooter" 

please check google for the facts before you jump to conclusions and try and call me a liar,

anyway i'm posting no more in this thread - john


----------



## slingshot_sniper (Feb 20, 2011)

I point at the target therefore I aim







but I still think its MAGIC if I hit anything


----------



## Hrawk (Oct 25, 2010)

I want a giant magnet for a target.

NO excuse for missing with steel shot then


----------



## slingshot_sniper (Feb 20, 2011)

Lol hrawk something I need at times haha!

One thing I will say though whatever you call your style of shooting it will take many many hours of practice to become proficient FACT so don't get saying ONLY aiming down the bands needs practice









All and any type of shooting requires practice,practice and more practice


----------



## spanky (May 29, 2011)

I think i have said it before,I aim, then miss by instinct-hehe.
Who really cares,Im just happy when i hit the target.


----------



## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Never thought to analyze the style of shooting that I do and neither did I know it existed till it was posted above but this is the best explanation of it as follows:

The instinctive archery is based on a hand-eye-coordination. Only by concentrating on the target, the subconscious steers the angle of the bow arm as well as the side direction, until the flight path of the arrow is correct. The shot itself will come like automatically. Having reached the necessary shooting technique by training and intensive practicing and so good shots are reproducible you may enjoy the hits!

Have fun and keep shooting.


----------



## marcus sr (Jun 5, 2011)

This is all bollox,all its going to do is divide the forum an make camps,ooooooooh ur this dont come an piss in my section!!! ****ing stupid,this is my opinion coz i have one,same as everyone else on here.Bill ,John,Dgui,all **** hot shooters,certainly the best ive seen bar none,but some members have gone to far an hero worship is taking place wtf!! all thats gonna do is inflate egos,who needs that ****?? one side say aiming one side say intuitive instinctive call it what you will,,Now mention Hussey and everyone on this forum ,one of the first things that spring to mind,Instinctive shooter!! Is that because hes an American institution?? No one would dare say hes an aimer or otherwise without gettin shot down,i mentioned once that there are better shooters now on this forum and got shot down for it,unfortunately for those who who tried to shoot me down,i could give a **** what you think an it was like water off a ducks back,minus the lead in its head.Compared to Bill,John,Dgui he was a different kettle of fish,god knows i wish i could shoot like Hussey,but then again id love to be able to shoot like the three ive mentioned in this opinion.In my opinion theres an ugly storm brewing and plenty of rows and ugly posts to follow,people who thought they were friends yesterday have been rowing an arguing over this lastnight and today,and i dont see it stopping.And before people write back saying theres no rowing an arguing,read the posts closely and youll see the underlying bitterness and sniping going on.

Marcus sr


----------



## spanky (May 29, 2011)




----------



## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Not another Word.


----------



## flippinout (Jul 16, 2010)

I have shot longbows far longer than slingshots and I don't "aim" either. I also don't shoot intuitively. I am aware of the bow/arrow/bands/frame, but my focus is on the target- hence it feels "intuitive". I have tried to learn to use the fork tips(gap shooting) and cannot get the hang of it.

Either way, I love shooting, my projectile generally hits its mark, and I am having fun just being an intuitive, aiming, instinctive, sighting, shooter.

Really, does it matter so long as you hit your mark???

Everyone shoots a bit differently and we are all equipped with the same devices- hands, arms, and eyes! Just shoot more and worry less


----------



## Rayshot (Feb 1, 2010)

From my thousands of conversations with people at the door as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, Northerner hit on probably the most important aspect that divides and creates problems. Semantics.

What is the definition of a word and in our case also, defines a process. First agree upon what are the definitions or what does define what the other means by his use of the term.

But the *worst problem is pride* not wanting/willing to find the common ground so that the terminology is the same.

Much of the time myself included according to my friend that loves language tells me I am too loose and reckless with the words I choose. When I really didn't mean what the words actually mean.

*Bottom line* according to published definitions. We all aim, some of us by the bands and others by intuitive method. Intuitive is a learned muscle, hand eye ability/coordination, both together to accomplish the motor skill.

Do we really have to fuss? This takes us away from our fun time.


----------



## Rayshot (Feb 1, 2010)

As for the poll I do both. I sight aim at times And Intuitively aim at other times.


----------



## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Guys we don't have to fuss or fight. I honestly don't care one little bit if your style is to aim, it's intuitive, it's instinctive or if it's martian. If you can hit the target just as well then it doesn't matter to me.
What I DO take exception to is the air of superiority that some have been trying to put on because they practice one particular method... the "intuitive" style. I'm merely saying one style is NOT clearly superior to other styles and in point of fact most people who think they're shooting "intuitive" are actually aiming and if you take the peripheral view to the fork out of the equation so that soft focus is impossible... probably 99% wouldn't be able to hit nearly as well.

John has already agreed that if his view to the forks were obstructed, like shooting under a table where the front hand is hidden, he'd be hard pressed to hit even a coke can at relatively short distances... much less cut cards etc. THAT is the proof of aiming.
If you have a problem hitting your target just as effectively because you now lack a visual reference point, then you DO aim.... and all this nonsense of it takes "talent" to do what he does whereas only "practice" is needed for aimers becomes a moot point. Because whether you hold the forks in an upright orientation or to the side, if you reference the fork or bands in your primary or secondary vision then you ARE aiming.

It's really that simple. There is no universally better style of shooting in my opinion... and there should be no stigma of negativity placed upon you because you aim... as probably 99% of those who think they're purely instinctive shooters are actually also aimers and the only differences are really fork orientation and sometimes grip.

Now... I'm going to throw a "monkey wrench" into the equation... I and most people actually do a combination of both aiming and instinctual shooting. It's mainly based on the size of the target and distance from it, combined with the speed desired to acquire and shoot it.
Basically if a target is large and close, then there is no consious aiming... the slingshot is merely pointed while being lifted and the target is struck upon release... CQB soft focus shooting with a lot more emphasis on the point. 
If the target is small and far away, and precision is needed then all the principles of basic marksmanship come into play... and more often than not, the target is taken down either way.


----------



## NaturalFork (Jan 21, 2010)

There does seem to be an attitude of "I shoot instinctively and I am godlike because of it" vibe.


----------



## Rayshot (Feb 1, 2010)

Bill Hays said:


> Guys we don't have to fuss or fight. I honestly don't care one little bit if your style is to aim, it's intuitive, it's instinctive or if it's martian. If you can hit the target just as well then it doesn't matter to me.
> What I DO take exception to is the air of superiority that some have been trying to put on because they practice one particular method... the "intuitive" style. I'm merely saying one style is NOT clearly superior to other styles and in point of fact most people who think they're shooting "intuitive" are actually aiming and if you take the peripheral view to the fork out of the equation so that soft focus is impossible... probably 99% wouldn't be able to hit nearly as well.
> 
> John has already agreed that if his view to the forks were obstructed, like shooting under a table where the front hand is hidden, he'd be hard pressed to hit even a coke can at relatively short distances... much less cut cards etc. THAT is the proof of aiming.
> ...


Well said Bill. I also didn't intend to insult by the fuss remark, I simply desire the "being on the same page mentality".

Also I haven't been able to read the posts as much lately and have missed the one is better or takes more talent attitude, which I glazed over here and was too lazy to go back and edit my earlier post. . Pride and superiority are bad waters to swim in and are very ugly, damaging, divisive attitudes. I am not pointing fingers that anyone in particular is intentionally being arrogant. Hopefully, self examination and humility will answer that one.

I think the comments thus far show that each style takes practice to be talented at it and some people may have a better aptitude for one method than the other(or preference). As well as some having more of a gift for shooting accurately than others regardless of shooting method.


----------



## Northerner (Nov 9, 2010)

Hi Bill,

By definition, everyone aims in order to make a hit. If you don't aim then you are just tossing projectiles randomly in front of you. We all direct the shot using some method... we all aim.

*Aim =* "to position or direct (a firearm, ball, arrow, rocket, etc.) so that, on firing or release, the discharged projectile will hit a target or travel along a certain path." or "*to point or direct a weapon or other object toward someone or something"*

When I started on the forums I was aiming my shots with the instinctive style. I didn't even think of using the frame to deliberately and consciously aim. After a couple of years I tried using the fork and had grief. After several attempts, I have now developed the ability to aim with the top fork (gangsta style). I like aming this way and enjoy the accuracy. I also enjoy aiming with the instinctive style (subconscious involvement). I also enjoy tinkering with aerial shots and also long distance shots. It's all fun. It all takes plenty of practice. Using the top fork took a lot of experimenting to figure out where to anchor the pouch and where to point the fork. Every part of the shot had to be polished to make the shot hit.

Cheers,
Northerner


----------



## maljo (Nov 27, 2010)

I'm an archer (recurve barebow target shooter) - I haven't got good natural hand-eye coordination so I've had to work on my form to get consistent accuracy. I know two other archers who also shoot recurve barebow and both are much better 'natural' archers than myself. At short range over a few shots these shooters are more accurate than I am BUT over a long haul (e.g. 3 dozen arrows at each of 90, 70, 50 and 30 metres), I generally win. This is because I have worked at my shooting to a point where I know precisely what I have to do in order to hit, so when a shot goes astray, I can go back to 'shooting by numbers', reassert my form and get back on target. In my experience, the 'intuitive' archers tend not to be able to get themselves together when things go wrong: they just don't seem to work on building the detailed knowledge of shooting form needed to do that.
I also know one international standard recurve target shooter. He has high levels of natural talent AND can give detailed analyses of his shooting form and any problems he's currently having AND can hit the gold frighteningly often at 90 metres. What I'm getting at is that good instincts without working on form will get you so far and no further. Good instincts plus good form is what gets you really good and that's when you hit what you're aiming at consistently when it isn't right under your nose - that takes talent and careful, reflective practice. The distinction between 'instinct' and 'aiming' is a red herring, neither alone will get you really good you need BOTH.


----------



## faca (Dec 24, 2009)

hi I mix both, I don´t aim but use the same hands+head+shouldes etc position to shoot


----------



## Ry-shot (Jul 22, 2011)

intuitive FTW !


----------



## KennyCannon (Aug 24, 2011)

I would think that in order to "aim" you'd need some sort of aiming point, or multiple aiming points.

If you just stare at the target, pull back and release, I couldn't see how that would be considered aiming.

And BTW...I "Aim". I line up the bands and the tip of the fork is where it's going at 10 meters (assuming my release is good). At 25 meters, half way down the fork and it's going there (again, assuming my release is good).


----------



## rubberpower (Aug 16, 2011)

This thread should be closed as it is really going the wrong direction. First look up the word aim in the dictionary. The most disturbing thing is why the moderators are not cleaning up the language. There are women and children reading the posts and most certainly know how to fill in the blanks. If you have to use those words to make your point then maybe you should not try and make one.


----------



## Ry-shot (Jul 22, 2011)

rubberpower said:


> This thread should be closed as it is really going the wrong direction. First look up the word aim in the dictionary. The most disturbing thing is why the moderators are not cleaning up the language. There are women and children reading the posts and most certainly know how to fill in the blanks. If you have to use those words to make your point then maybe you should not try and make one.


i agree


----------

