# Flechettes - first report



## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

OK, started to test the flechettes.










I needed a slingshot with a bit higher fork, and goind through my collection, I found the Bunnybuster Tom sent me a few months ago. Perfect for the job!

I attached rubber with a paracord oop on each end (so there is no danger of entanglement, active band length 20cm x 7cm x 4cm Thera Gold.










I had to get used to the flechettes but got the hang of it soon. No danger for the hands. The loops work very good.

It is amazing to hear the hissing of the arrows in flight. They need a few meters to straighten out, then they fly really straight.

I have shot them against a wooden board, 22mm thick. The flechettes hit the board very hard, from about 10 meters. It takes force to pull them out. They do not go through the board all the way, but you can see the cracks in the plastic coating (backside) already.










The M8 version has the same impact depth as the M6 version, surprisingly.










But then I took the Monster and butterflied 16mm lead balls into the same board, from the same distance... go figure.



















All in all, a lot of fun, but I am not certain if the flechettes can really bring down larger game than lead balls can.

Will continue to test, and make a crossbow that really has some force!

Jörg


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## PandaMan (Oct 14, 2010)

After being hit it the had with one of my blunt test flechettes, I've deemed it necessary to try 2 loops, rather than one. I would be out testing them now, but it's raining








I haven't heard any whizzing/hissing sounds yet... Maybe my bands aren't powerful enough.


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## lucifer93 (May 4, 2010)

The results are looking good, i think the DIY crossbow will be the king for shooting these flechettes.


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

Pandaman, did I understand that right - you got hit in the head?

I hope you are not seriously wounded.

Jörg


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## PandaMan (Oct 14, 2010)

Ooohhhh. That came out wrong. Hand, I missed out the 'n'. It still hurt though.








I've tested this method of two loops, and it seems better. Well done for thinking of it Jörg.


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## zille (Oct 25, 2010)

Very impressive, i figured out the need for high forks by ruining my phoenix.







maybe the flechettes are better for soft targets?


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## Brooklyn00003 (Feb 28, 2010)

I dont understand how you can draw it back and shoot


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## sabaca (Jun 3, 2010)

> All in all, a lot of fun, but I am not certain if the flechettes can really bring down larger game than lead balls can.


Sharp flechettes pierce the skin firmer.

Why not use balls on the tip instead of nuts Joerg?


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## PandaMan (Oct 14, 2010)

brooklyn00003 said:


> I dont understand how you can draw it back and shoot


The two loops of string go around the two sticky out bits of the wing nuts. Then you can pull back the flechette and fire as normal. Simples







.


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## Brooklyn00003 (Feb 28, 2010)

PandaMan said:


> I dont understand how you can draw it back and shoot


The two loops of string go around the two sticky out bits of the wing nuts. Then You can pull back the flechette and fire as normal. Simples







.
[/quote]

Right ,so the two bands are not connected I guess
.
Thanks


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## stelug (Feb 6, 2010)

sound interestig, but also unusefull. Sorry if I may appear unpolite is not my intention. But consider: A) Any small crossbow (like barnett's pistolbow) is not that biggher than a slingshot, with the improvement of driving line for the arrow and an aim sistem. B)An eventually fork hitting, with ricocet, may turn in a disaster not to speack of the possibility of a hand or finger hitting. 3) The thing that mostly hit me is that the slingshot, still seen and tolerate as something between a toy and a real weapon (while we all know the real potential) in most part of the world, may come out as a modern street thug's device. It would be a real ashame being disarmed for that.

Ps: having spent part of my ladness in a sort of boys-gang war I know the slingshot is not the best weapon for uman to human confrontation. It has not the long bow range required in medioeval wars, any protection, may be also a thick jacket can dump its effect, but the main factor ist that you need two hands to manage it, while other "tools" let you one free.


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## philly (Jun 13, 2010)

Having worked in a manufacturing enviroment for fifty years, using all kinds of dangerous equipment and power tools I can happily report that at 69 years old I still have all ten fingers and intend to keep them till I am dead. Although interesting, this experiment seems destined for a very bad ending. Good luck, be careful.


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## 919h (Aug 27, 2010)

Hello Joerg

D 16 lead weights approximately 24 grams
D6 dart weights 35 grams
D8 dart weights 64 grams

I think perhaps the darts are too heavy and not fast enough.
Speed is exponent 2 in joules formula.
With a dart of 24 grams, the result might be was more impressive !?

Thank you for your work.

Xav


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## ZDP-189 (Mar 14, 2010)

JoergS said:


> The M8 version has the same impact depth as the M6 version, surprisingly.


Not surprising at all. Penetration is (approximately) a function of momentum per impact area. So a wider straight rod is the same as long as the velocity is similar. If you want more penetration you need higher density or a longer rod. (ooh err, etc.)

All that is theory. I want to be clear that I feel all this is dangerous folly. I was experimenting with 'interesting slingshot ammo' long before I joined this forum. I shot from behind a heavy wooden desk and full face helmet using a slingshot bow and still had occasion to scare myself silly. Other than the visceral excitement of destruction, there's no advantage to it that would outweigh the risks.


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

I don't see why it should be more dangerous than shooting lead balls. A hit to the hand with a heavy, fast lead ball is as catastrophic as a hit with the flechettes. I have done maybe a hundred shots and no issues so far.

X-Bow is ready, shot it indoors yesterday evening as it was already dark. Nice!

Video will follow.

Jörg


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## Hrawk (Oct 25, 2010)

JoergS said:


> But then I took the Monster and butterflied 16mm lead balls into the same board, from the same distance... go figure.
> 
> Jörg


I'm certainly no physicist, not even all that smart really but here's my theory.

When shooting the round ball, the majority of force is directed forward.

When the flechette strikes the board, due to the shape of the tip, a wedge so to say, a large majority of that force gets spread horizontally or sideways presenting a much thicker/stronger piece of material that needs to be pulled apart.

Meh, here's a picture.

Put a blunt nose on the dart and I think it would have similar penetration.

Edit : Phear my leet paint skillz!


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

Or maybe the difference is that I can pull harder with a pouch, so I can use stronger rubber. Also I do not dare shooting full butterfly with the flechettes.

Now that I have my crossbow, experiments are a lot safer.

Jörg


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## Hrawk (Oct 25, 2010)

I have noticed similar results when shooting pointed pellets vs wad cutters into thin board.

Pointed rounds would just mushroom and not penetrate very deep while wad cutters would punch a neat hole all the way though.

I realise these are both soft lead and deform considerably on contact, this is what led me to make my last post.


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## HOE (Nov 13, 2010)

Now I think that shooting short arrows or darts with slingshots is really risky. In Korean archery, they have a bamboo guide for shooting short arrows with a composite bow. If done wrongly, the archer will lose an eye, it happened before. So I think this is a similar case with slingshots shooting darts.

Since the test result is not really appealing for the risk it carries, I can now just forget about this idea. Thanks for experimenting this.


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

Why do you think this is more risky than shooting a lead or steel ball - just because it is pointed?

I think that this is more of a psychological issue. If you hit your hand with a lead ball at full force, broken finger bones and a massive trauma will be the result. The injuries from the pointed darts are probably less dangerous.


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## bleachbone (Nov 15, 2010)

how wide are the flechettes

thank you


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## ZDP-189 (Mar 14, 2010)

JoergS said:


> Why do you think this is more risky than shooting a lead or steel ball - just because it is pointed?


I'm concerned with the following:


Long projectile fired from a slingshot
Centre of thrust is close to the centre of mass
Elevated probability of tumbling before it leaves the slingshot
Low forks
High power
A pointed end that would more likely snag in the hand than deflect off it
Elevated probability of tumbling before attains aerodynamic stability
Lack of yaw vaning
High kinetic energy
Not that I'm telling you not to do it. You're a grown up, you understand the danger and you have more experience doing this any anyone I know. I'm just a little bit concerned that if promoted as a safe activity, which it is not, even compared to slingshot shooting, then people may misunderstand and not take enough care and someone will end up badly hurt.


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

You are right, Dan. Flechettes are mean and dangerous. What is dangerous for the "victims" is always potentially dangerous for the shooter. A weak slingshot shooting soft, light ammo is much safer than this.

But a .177 olympic air gun is much safer than a .50 AE Desert Eagle as well. Certainly for potential "victims", but no doubts also for the shooter.

It takes guts, but also carefulness and experience to shoot these dangerous flechettes. But it is fun all the same!


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## HOE (Nov 13, 2010)

Yeah, the dart tumbling before going through the fork is another potential risk, if the wing nut is not properly placed. Shooters new to the sport don't have knowledge on this, they don't know what they are doing and exactly how the dart works.

So Jorge, I suggest you to put "Do this at your own risk" under your video description so that you don't get blamed when something bad happens to those shooters.


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## ZDP-189 (Mar 14, 2010)

I guess I'm kind of saying I think the band hooks should be further forward, like a Filipino dart or a Com-Bow, so that it doesn't want to tumble while still under tension and behind the hand.

The Filippino version only has one band AFAIK and maybe that would reduce the risk of one staying attached a bit longer and the dart flying off in a random and possibly retrograde direction.

No, pointy things don't scare me. I've done enough slingshot darts and other pointy stuff in my time to smell danger and this configuration is fairly ripe.


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## PandaMan (Oct 14, 2010)

Dan, I disagree with you. Maybe I'm inexperienced in my methods of judging this, but me, Jörg, Sabaca and probably other people have all used this design safely. When I get a dart lodged in my hand, maybe I'll agree, but so far after over 200 shots nothing has happened. Also pointing out that Jörg and Sabaca have had no incidents (to my knowledge). It's very dangerous in theory, I agree, however in practice it's much less so. I think Jörg has high speed footage of one of these flechettes in flight and I'm pretty sure this would show a straight flight path, no tumbling. This is my reasoning.


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

Panda is correct, they do not tumble. Not at all.

I think it would be dangerous to shoot them with very weak bands or only partially drawn out, though.


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