# Time To Break Out The Big Guns...



## Bill Hays

About 10 days ago we bought 5 more goats... these are some real nice ones so we put them in the side pen to get them acclimated to the farm before turning them out with the rest of the herd....

Well, there's a 5 1/2 foot fence all the way around the pen, buried 1 foot deep all the way around...
Last night something big jumped in, killed and partially ate one of the new goats... something with big feet that doesn't leave a toenail mark when walking... you may have guessed it.
Yes, a Mountain Lion decided it would be a good idea to get on my bad side... so we're going to see how that turns out.

I have a real good feeling that pretty soon there's going to be a Cougar with a terminal case of lead poisoning...

Here's the remaining does, notice how they're crowded together and very spooked acting:









Here's the slaughtered one:









And here's the remedy... a .308 Weatherby, a Judge loaded with .454 Casull and a .50 cal S&W Magnum... my biggest problem right now is deciding which should deliver the retribution?!


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## LBurnett

oo naughty cougar! I hope no more end up like that Bill.


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## LBurnett

one other thing, i know a few people here that don't like pictures of dead/injured animals, (not that it bothers me) but i didn't know whether this could be moved to the hunting section due to the pictures?







I may be wrong though!


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## Sean

Moved to slingshot hunting.


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## treefork

That cougar didn't know it trespassed on the wrong farm. Post us pics of the ending.Have a feeling that will be tonight. R.I.P


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## Imperial

if the goats are that close to each other, that means the lion is within distance . itll be back real soon .


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## WILD BILL

I'd say the 308 would be my favorite for this job. I do love the big hand guns though. I'd like to put my Excalibur X- Bow and 150gr Vortex BH on it.

Here is a bit of Cougar hide being put to use

In would imagine that the liver and lites were eaten first.

Did you make BBQ?


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## Flatband

**** Bud, you do live OUT THERE! Mountain Lion? Whew! Flatband


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## tnflipper52

They are starting to show up in Nashville and surrounding counties. Never thought i'd see the day that mountain lions made a comeback here. Bill, you are a proficient hunter and you know the lay of your land. Treelines and border edges and ravines are their favorites. Use the .308 in ambush. Hate it for you and your goat. Good luck.


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## Danny0663

Ohhhhh boy, thats a problem.
I'm not to sure on 'big cat' behaviour, but i'm guessing it will come back for more?

Good luck man, stay safe!


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## quarterinmynose

Sorry to hear about your goat. I also keep goats, great animals. I see you are well and prepared to deal with this problem though, happy hunting.


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## orcrender

Send in the Judge!


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## capnjoe

Sounds familiar, but a few sizes larger than my kitty problems.
Use the dead goat for bait, post up someplace within range and send one over.
You know the drill, Master Bill!


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## Bill Hays

Yeah, I left the goat where it lays, then put a blind around their house which is about 50 yards away.... I'll be in there tonight when it gets dark... may spend the whole night in there... If it doesn't happen tonight, then maybe tomorrow night... when it happens it'll happen. But I have to take care of this problem.
A cat this big and this brazen is a very dangerous animal... and since I have young kids, not just goats but human kids.... this thing going to have to be settled.


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## SimpleShot

Ouch!! That cat has no idea whose farm he has trespassed upon.

I have experienced cat problems, but not that size and they are a terrific predator. No doubt, Pocket Predator has the upper hand! Lay 'em down Bill!


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## Hrawk

Bill Hays said:


> And here's the remedy... a .308 Weatherby


Nothing says '_I love you_' quite like 165 grains of copper jacketed lead moving at 2700fps


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## mrpaint

ya... i would say .308 would be the best bet, especially if you are trying to salvage any of the hide or meat, the 454 and 50 would leave massive holes... lol


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## MarsOne

with little kids around you need to get rid of him. Best of luck, do post pics etc!


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## Sean

No takers with Bill, and the other weapon, one of his fine catty's he's quite deadly with?


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## Charles

You are absolutely right about the danger to the kids. Here on Vancouver Island, we frequently get cougar attacks on children.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/08/16/bc-cougar-attacks-boy.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/08/23/bc-cougar-attacks-vancouver-island.html

These guys are definitely not to be fooled with.

Cheers ....... Charles


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## shoot2kill

Once its found an easy food source, it will most likely be back, and I'm guessing a small herd of goats was easy pickings for a cat that big...aim small miss small


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## lightgeoduck

I would trap him, then let him know he made a mistake as he is staring down the barrel of that 50 cal. Once you see the fear in his eyes......BLAM!!

LGD


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## DaveSteve

_Go get em!_


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## reecemurg

lightgeoduck said:


> I would trap him, then let him know he made a mistake as he is staring down the barrel of that 50 cal. Once you see the fear in his eyes......BLAM!!
> 
> LGD


hahahahahahahaha ,, love it


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## Berkshire bred

use the .308 its going to be the most human unless you get really close then end its days with the .500 smith and wesson.


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## WILD BILL

Bill, I did not mean any disrespect for asking if you made BBQ. Several years ago, due to the Government releasing Big Cats in the mountains close to me, I lost several young ones from my deer herd.. The ones that we found right after the kill, were eaten. I hate to waste anything. I suppose this time a year in Texas, too hot!

We did trap one of them and and after several more kills she left.

The first that they would eat, is the liver and other internals and cover it up with leaves. Twos days alter she would return and eat again. They never consumed much of the deer. They would just kill again. The bodies looked just like your Goat.

If you can dispatch it without much hide damage, it is quite valuable and would finance several more Goats


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## Tex-Shooter

I don't know if I posted this on the forum before or not. A search did not turn it up, so here it is.

I was once about 45 feet from a mountain Lion in the dark. It happened to me at the children's home one morning while deer hunting on my day off. I had gotten up before daylight after an evening rain had passed, walked around the back side of the mountain and climbed up in a small tree where I had put a bench. I had set there about 5 minutes when there was a blood curdling scream and the sound of something running past me that I could not see. I was very shaken up. At daylight I got down and looked where the sound came from and found the cougar tracks. He had been setting in a tree about 60 feet in front of me and had run by me on my right side about 40 feet away. I gave up on the deer hunt as I knew that there would not be any around then. I went back to the house and called a hunter's guide friend of mine and told him what had happened. He came right up and we drove back to the spot and he said that the cat was probably on the move and would most likely go right down the ridge line. He said "I am going to try to get in front of him and wait". That afternoon he came back with the big cat in the back of the truck. He had got in the right position and had killed it. He said that the cat had killed several goats in the days preceding the event. Thank god that the Lion was as scared of me as I was of it that morning. -- Tex


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## Bill Hays

Last night... I learned a very valuable lesson. This is the first time I've tried to hunt a Mountain Lion, and I already knew they are extremely stealthy (as I've told Tex before, about the Azle Knife Store, their pet and how I thought it was stuffed until I tried to touch it's eye and it blinked... THAT'LL make your blood run cold).... But anyway before I digress to much... the Big Cat last night, got away.​
It was a VERY bright night being the blue moon and all, so I thought I could just use the moonlight to see the Cat when it decided to come...​I sat there for 3 hours, no movement... every lesson a trained sniper knows, going into not giving away position... peering through the scope, looking for the slightest of movement... I was only 75 yards away so I should have been able to see... or so I thought.​
During the night I saw several really big owls make patrol passes, a couple of cottontails... and of course I kept my eye on the remaining 4 does to see if they sense anything as well.... ALL to no avail... around midnight I noticed that it was a lot more difficult to see the carcass of the goat... I attibuted it to the shifting shadows as the wind blows and the moon moves across the sky.... then zeroing in on the carcass I all the sudden simply couldn't see anything there...​
This Master of the Night, the Ghost in the Darkness... had jumped into the pen, stalked to the goat's body (around 40 lbs.), picked it up in it's jaws, walked to the fence and jumped over the fence with the goat in it's mouth.... ALL without enough sound or sight for me or the remaining goats to hear or see anything...​
I don't know if it will be returning tonight... I'm going rig up a red lensed spotlight to a car battery... supposedly they can't see it that way... and instead of using the old Weatherby .308, I'm going to switch to a .243 using a scope with a lit reticle.​
THIS is a very dangerous animal, he knows there's an easy meal here now... and he can seemingly come and go with impunity. Hopefully I'll be able to prove him wrong... soon​


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## capnjoe

"Punch that cougar in the face!" said the guy on a buffalo.
Patience wins in the end, Bill, and you proved you have it.
You'll soon have your own "stuffed putty tat." The non blinking type. Here kitty kitty!


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## tnflipper52

Keep at him Bill, use the biggest objective lensed scope you have. A 50mm works good at night.. 7x50 binocs for light gathering and field of vision. Sarge told me once "Time spent in recon is seldom wasted." Yeah, that's been around the block a few times, but it's as good today as in 1972. Search, find, destroy. Good luck to ya.


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## jskeen

Hey Bill; Just out of curiosity, any real reason to assume this is a Tom? Kits from this spring are getting pretty big about now, so it might be mama lookin for a snack.

Not that it makes any difference to the final outcome, You gotta do what you gotta do, and the PETA crowd can go perform an anatomically unlikely act, if they can manage it.

BTW, opticshq.com has an ITT PVS-14 on sale for about $3600 Nice little sight. Much better than the gen 2 ones we had when I was active duty.


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## M.J

That's an amazing story! Cat snuck in and stole the whole carcass... incredible!


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## Bill Hays

No special reason to call it a "he" other than that's the way I refer to anything until gender is determined.

I did find one track about 30 minutes ago... it was on the backside of my guesthouse, where the septic aeration sprinkler system sprays water every night... the track is a little larger than my fist... didn't find any tracks around the stock tanks or our little lake... so it might be using that as it's water source.
I also found out my Aunt, who lives right down the road, had her Bull Mastiff get killed and half eaten about a week ago... so we've got something pretty bad around here somewhere. I'm thinking that the "new" neighbors, who decided to open a private wildlife and entertainment park thing about a mile from here may be attracting the attention of some of the these alpha predators... the guy is a son of the man who owned Texas Safari and has spent quite a bit of money putting up an 8-10 foot fence all the way around his land to keep the antelope, deer and elk in.

Anyway, the saga continues... I looked through the backside of our stand of woods and didn't find anything... really rough going in there, but that doesn't mean anything... the Lion could've been real close, and so long as it doesn't move I probably wouldn't have seen it due to the thickness of the vegetation and the fact they are colored in such a way as they blend in with the dead leaves.... soooo until tonight!


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## PrideProducts

Bill Hays said:


> Yeah, I left the goat where it lays, then put a blind around their house which is about 50 yards away.... I'll be in there tonight when it gets dark... may spend the whole night in there... If it doesn't happen tonight, then maybe tomorrow night... when it happens it'll happen. But I have to take care of this problem.
> A cat this big and this brazen is a very dangerous animal... and since I have young kids, not just goats but human kids.... this thing going to have to be settled.


your going to have to ask big mr spave if you can borrow some of his bands for a cougar haha


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## treefork

Might have to use one of the live goats as bait now. Place one of the live goats in a metal dog crate in the original goat pen to protect it.Put some blood scent to draw him in. He may have a full belly after last night though.


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## Devoman

Crazy story! I await the results with "baited" breath.


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## Charles

Cougars are supreme hunters ... very sly, crafty, and as silent as anything in the bush. Around here, a good sign of a cougar in the neighborhood is the disappearance of pet dogs and cats. Cougars regard a single dog as just another source of food. Best of luck with the hunt. I could make a fortune if I could develop a land mine with a cougar proximity fuse!!!









Cheers ....... Charles


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## DaveSteve

Very exciting story! We all hunt with you. Good luck!


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## mrpaint

Charles said:


> Cougars are supreme hunters ... very sly, crafty, and as silent as anything in the bush. Around here, a good sign of a cougar in the neighborhood is the disappearance of pet dogs and cats. Cougars regard a single dog as just another source of food. Best of luck with the hunt. I could make a fortune if I could develop a land mine with a cougar proximity fuse!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers ....... Charles


lol charles, yes you could make a fortune


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## Bill Hays

Well, last night was a no show for the Mountain Lion. So I changed out the goats, put the four new does in a small holding pen in a more secure location on the farm... and then put most of the free range herd in the big pen.... 24 goats in the pen now, one older boss Male, a baby male and a "teen" male, the rest are mommas and their kids.
I'd think it would be an irresistible lure for the Cat.... we'll see.

What I did yesterday is I placed a game camera in the woods behind the pen, where I think the trail he may have used is... went to Walmart and bought several motion activated lights: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mr.-Beams-Security-Spotlight/16664171 ... cut and installed red lenses on the lights, and strategically placed them on fence posts along where the Cat was last time.
Now when the Cat jumps in it should set off the light where I figure he's coming in at... and as he moves along the fence line more lights will be activated... when/if I see the lights come on I KNOW there's something in the pen and will then hit it with my 3 million cp red lensed spotlight to verify before pulling the trigger.


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## treefork

The saga continues. Stay tuned.He will be hungry again. This would be the most awsome video if it was possible.


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## LBurnett

Come on Bill, I'm getting excited


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## tnflipper52

Gotta get the cat Bill, and you will. If it is a female call the wildlife management and find the kittens. They are just bystanders in this drama and can be released at wm's discretion. Sad when they get the taste of domesticated stock, but it's gotta go.


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## reecemurg

good luck , and i agree this would make a bad ass video !!! DO IT !!!!


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## harson

good luck bill ,hope you get him,wish there was a live web link ,this is exciting ,nothing like that where i live.go get him big guy.


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## Gote Rider

Mr.Hays I am sorry to hear about your goat. If you could make a pen out in your field about 8x8x4 foot cover the sides and top with steel dog wire the small hole chicken wire will work but its not as strong. Put one of your small goats in the pen to use as bait put several steel traps and snares around the pen and put two steel traps on top of the pen. That will slove your problem.


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## snowmann

well, not sure about mt.Lions ... but around here (Upstate SC) most ppl keep a Donkey in with their animals to ward off the Coyotes & other varmints we get roaming around from time to time....


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## Charles

snowmann said:


> well, not sure about mt.Lions ... but around here (Upstate SC) most ppl keep a Donkey in with their animals to ward off the Coyotes & other varmints we get roaming around from time to time....


I can personally verify the donkey strategy. I had just moved to a farm near Victoria, and many of the fields were grown up with Scotch broom, about 6-8 ft tall ... you could not walk through it, but there were a few game trails. Also, the farm was on a river, and all sorts of beasties ran the river valley. I had not yet put sheep on the place. I was talking on the phone, looking out toward the barn, and I saw a cougar emerge from the broom and casually walk around the barn. I dropped the phone and ran for a rifle, but of course the brute was gone by the time I could get out the door.

I bought an "Irish standard" donkey, about 2 years old, and put him with the sheep. Donkeys are social, so he was pleased to pal around with the sheep, and he ate basically the same stuff the sheep did ... no extra special feed required. Over the years, there were sheep kills all around me, by cougars, bears, wolves and dogs. But I never lost an animal.

When something is strange to a donkey, it stops in order to figure it out, which gives them the reputation of being stubborn. Unlike horses, they do not run when startled. They can kick out with any of their 4 feet, even when at a full gallop. If any strange animal, dog or whatever, came into the pasture, the donkey would sort of whistle at it ... it then had only a few seconds before the donkey would charge it and try to kill it. Dogs always lost, no matter what. I have seen that donkey chase deer out of the pasture.

I once had a bear come up from the river onto the place. I spotted it flipping over my bee hives. I grabbed a rifle and managed to shoot it ... bit of a story, but I did kill it. Anyway, I backtracked the bear ... he came up from the river and headed to the barn, where the sheep were penned at the time. But the donkey was in the pasture adjacent to the pens. The bear apparently grew wary of the donkey and retreated before getting near the sheep. Then he ambled around until he found my bee hives, which is where I spotted him.

So I am a believer in Donkeys as pedator deterents.

Cheers ....... Charles


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## RawSlingshots

Wow, I'm glad we don't have them here in Holland.., be safe so h'ill be sorry


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## curmudgeon

My friend sent me a video of a mule killing a mountain lion. Seems a man and his wife were out riding. They got off for some reason and the cat attacked. The mule picked up the lion in his mouth and shook it like a dogs shakes a rat. After he killed it he stomped it. A very dead mountain lion was the result. I wish I had kept the video. It was great. So if mules can kill a cougar, I imagine a donkey would be a good deterrent as well. Good luck Bill. Maybe you should get a mule it you can't shoot this cat.


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## curmudgeon

I checked on the internet and it looks like the pictures (not video) were a hoax. The cougar had already been shot.
Still, I believe a mule could kill a cougar.


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## sparrowslinger

Must get that cat!!!


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## Charles

As for the mule vs cougar story, seems the mule did not kill the cougar, but only attacked it after the cougar was dead.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/mulelion.asp

As long as the flock is not too big, nor the grazing area too large, donkeys can be highly effective at deterring predators.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/sheep/facts/donkey2.htm

There are a lot of reports on the internet about the use of donkeys for this purpose.

Cheers ...... Charles


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## peakshooter

I gather Llamas are also used to protect sheep + goats from predators.


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## Sean

Intersting story about the Donkeys, I'd have never guessed.


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## Bill Hays

Well, no Mountain Lion showed up again last night... went to bed at 6 am and just got up, so there's a whole day's worth of work that's been shot to ****....
I know all about Donkeys and protecting the herd... even a large male goat will deter any but the most persistant big cats.... but the goats aren't my main concern. We have a fairly decent sized farm with vulnerable animals all over it... that is vulnerable to a cat that is capable of killing and eating a bull mastiff like it did at my Aunt's... and that still not a major concern.
My children are my concern... I've got two 4 year old kids who like to go out scorpion hunting and lightning bug catching... and a 7 year old who would like to go as well but is now deathly afraid of the monster in the dark now... on top of it all, the older girls and my wife don't have a healthy enough fear of what's out there... so for everyone's piece of mind, I need to produce a body. Hopefully it will be sooner than later... this staying up all night bs is starting to get to me!


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## mrpaint

hey bill, if the animal is already in the area, maybe you could try a predator call / decoy?


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## treefork

This situation reminds me of the movie " Ghost In The Darkness". The cunning nature of the big cat and the persistent hunter protecting people. In the end the hunter wins just as you will Mr Hays.I know its draining but you do enjoy a challenge.


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## slacker04

Hey Bill, I wish you every success in ridding your property of this menace. Meanwhile, stay safe, you and you family!


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## Acedoc

keep the kids safe, not that you need me to tell you that ! say what bout getting some dogs to track the sob ? it is done quite commonly i understand.


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## Rapier

Far out Bill! Best of luck finding a clear shot on him real soon. I know you wont need any luck with your aim.


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## Bill Hays

Well, no joy again last night.
Something did jump in the pen though... I don't know if it was him or not. I sitting there kicked back listening to the radio (earbud) and one of the motion sensing lights went off.... instantly whatever it is knocked the light off the post and jumped back out of the pen. Did it faster than I could get the spotlight to bear on it.
So I don't know if it was just a bobcat, lynx or the real deal... it happened so fast. The game camera didn't catch anything either, but it wasn't aimed at that area.

Maybe tonight will be the night... I sure hope so!


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## river

[sup]I wish you the best of luck. The mountain lions seem to be getting more daring in Texas. I live in Alvin...saw a young one last year as I was driving to work. Not my first to see, just the first one I have seen in Alvin. Told my mom about it, she goes on to tell me of the tracks she found in Carrolton (North Dallas), right next to her house. Apparently the wildlife people were out there to confirm it had walked through the neighborhood looking for easy prey.[/sup]
[sup]Again, good luck.[/sup]

[sup]-Keefe[/sup]


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## Charles

Tough break, Bill. Just keep at it and you will nail him eventually. I am surprised there aren't any cat hunters in the area with a pack of dogs. Around here there are some designated hunters who get called in when cougars appear in urban areas. I know you would like the satisfaction of nailing it yourself, but a good pack of experienced dogs will generally bring a cougar to bay, where it can be easily shot.

Cheers ....... Charles


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## Rapier

I'm no couger hunter but had an idea. It may be stupid but...
What about using a teathered bait out from your hide so that the cat would have to struggle with it a bit, keeping him there a bit longer and giving you a chance for a shot?!?


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## Jakerock

How about a deadfall trap using a concert grand piano?


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## Rapier

yeah or a mini van


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## sparrowslinger

Hahaha! Those are some good ideas? What would you use for the figure 4?


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## sparrowslinger

I meant good ideas!


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## Imperial

Jakerock said:


> How about a deadfall trap using a concert grand piano?


.
the kind of successful traps that one wiley e. coyote sets up for the road runer ?


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## Bill Hays

Nothing again last night... and the moon is getting dimmer each night, so I'm starting to lose any advantage I may have had as well..
The Game Warden in charge of this sort of thing was out here today... they've had a few confirmed sitings and kills a little north of here, so we're in it's territory I guess. He said if it hasn't moved on, it will most likely be back real soon as the size of the goat it took should be running out now.

I am going to make sure all the vehicles are gone, and all the lights turned off... and I set up a new blind position in our old whelping house, as it overlooks the whole pen and offers a great deal of concealment. Should be interesting.... oh and I'm going to use a .243 Winchester fitted out with a 56mm light gathering scope and lit reticle.... yesterday afternoon I went down to the "back 40" and made sure it was sighted in, put 3 rounds in one hole at 100 meters, so it should be able hit a Lion in the heart at 200 feet easy enough!


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## sparrowslinger

I know this is a stupid question, but what will the kids do when they hear a .243 winchester going off? Will they come and marvel at your kill in the middle of the night?


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## Rapier

sparrowslinger said:


> I know this is a stupid question, but what will the kids do when they hear a .243 winchester going off? Will they come and marvel at your kill in the middle of the night?


I recon Bill's kids are well schooled when it comes to firearms. I believe Bill is the kind of feller to leave nothing to chance, especially when it come to guns and his babes.


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## WILD BILL

Rapier said:


> I know this is a stupid question, but what will the kids do when they hear a .243 winchester going off? Will they come and marvel at your kill in the middle of the night?


I recon Bill's kids are well schooled when it comes to firearms. I believe Bill is the kind of feller to leave nothing to chance, especially when it come to guns and his babes.
[/quote]

I believe he is referring to the Goats?


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## Btoon84

Love the suspense of this thread, fun reading it! Can't wait for the dénouement! Good luck sir. Wishing safety and well being for the Hays farm.


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## Rapier

WILD BILL said:


> I know this is a stupid question, but what will the kids do when they hear a .243 winchester going off? Will they come and marvel at your kill in the middle of the night?


I recon Bill's kids are well schooled when it comes to firearms. I believe Bill is the kind of feller to leave nothing to chance, especially when it come to guns and his babes.
[/quote]

I believe he is referring to the Goats?
[/quote]
Could be Wild Bill but I'm having trouble imagining baby goats come running to marvel at a lion kill after a .243 discharge. Sounded to me more like what an inquisitive child might do. Only sparrowslinger knows I guess...


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## Rapier

Btoon84 said:


> Love the suspense of this thread, fun reading it! Can't wait for the dénouement! Good luck sir. Wishing safety and well being for the Hays farm.


Ha! cool word, dénouement, 1. the final resolution of the main complication of a literary or dramatic work, 2. the outcome of a complex sequence of events.
Had to look it up and full marks for correct application there Btoon. Your not just a pretty bug!


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## Bill Hays

Nothing again last night.
So what I've done is I just threw some beef blood on the leaves next to the fence, left some in a suspended bucket and hung some raw chicken quarters on thin stainless wire from an overhanging branch so that they're about 3 feet off the ground.... there's a game camera and two motion sensing red lensed lights aiming at the bait. According to the Warden, the Lion should be out of food now (unless he supplemented with something else in between), so unless he moved on (their range is 75-300 square miles) he should be back real soon.

My children are like me... they're growing up with guns and the respect they deserve. When this rifle goes off they won't come running.


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## sparrowslinger

Cool, Bill. Maybe this night you'll nab him (or her!)!


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## Charles

Thanks for the update, Bill. Best of luck with the new baits. Wish I was close enough to help you stand watch. In those low light, fast moving situations, my preference would be for a 12 guage pump with heavy buckshot ... assuming your blind is close enough and you are no longer using your live animals as bait.

Cheers ...... Charles


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## Rapier

True Charles, I'm there with you but with an eye like Mr. Hays, which I certainly aint got, and using the equipment he is, the .243 can pinpoint those vital areas... I'm a huge fan of that calibur. Flat shooting, great distence, minimal kick and with enough punch to take out anything I'd likly take a shot at. It's a beautiful all rounder. A must have to my way of thinking....
But then again, the right shotty with the right load is also a no brianer.


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## mckee

im excited to see the results, figers crossed you get it soon!


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## mrpaint

I have a feeling tonight will be fruitful for you Bill, just make sure you don't miss.


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## Charles

Rapier said:


> True Charles, I'm there with you but with an eye like Mr. Hays, which I certainly aint got, and using the equipment he is, the .243 can pinpoint those vital areas... I'm a huge fan of that calibur. Flat shooting, great distence, minimal kick and with enough punch to take out anything I'd likly take a shot at. It's a beautiful all rounder. A must have to my way of thinking....
> But then again, the right shotty with the right load is also a no brianer.


We all have our preferences. I am a big fan of .375 H&H magnum ... shoots very flat out to 200 yards at least ... I never shoot anything further than that anyway. That big heavy slug will not be deflected by much of anything ... will punch through a tree about a foot in diameter and still have plenty of killing power. Can be handloaded down for deer or up for any land game, including elephant. That slug will smash through any bone on any North American game, with devastating results. If you do not hit bone, you will punch all the way through the target; an animal with a 3/8 inch through and through wound channel will bleed out in very short order.So any reasonable shot will get your game. But I will not bench shoot without a shot bag between the butt and my shoulder!

Cheers ....Charles


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## shoot2kill

I love my remingtol 700 .243 youth model, almost same hole at 250 yards, light, I'm getting headshots all day baby but we just got a browning 30-06 semi auto that looks pretty sweet....too many weapons? I think not!


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## Rapier

shoot2kill said:


> I love my remingtol 700 .243 youth model, almost same hole at 250 yards, light, I'm getting headshots all day baby but we just got a browning 30-06 semi auto that looks pretty sweet....too many weapons? I think not!


Yeah nice rifle that 700. but remember, their 'firearms' or 'guns' and only weapons when pointed at humans or else militry designed to shoot people. A car is not a weapon unless I decide to start running people over with it. but your right in that collecting them can become an addiction...
Cheers


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## Acedoc

You guys are spoiled for choice ! Lucky you.
I would take a .223 or 8mm Austrian for such animals if I can get a good shot else a shotty with ball and buck or just buckshot has accounted for many leopards on my side of the pond. I have not taken any down but know of licensed hunters who have done the same.


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## Rapier

Charles said:


> We all have our preferences. I am a big fan of .375 H&H magnum ... shoots very flat out to 200 yards at least ... I never shoot anything further than that anyway. That big heavy slug will not be deflected by much of anything ... will punch through a tree about a foot in diameter and still have plenty of killing power. Can be handloaded down for deer or up for any land game, including elephant. That slug will smash through any bone on any North American game, with devastating results. If you do not hit bone, you will punch all the way through the target; an animal with a 3/8 inch through and through wound channel will bleed out in very short order.So any reasonable shot will get your game. But I will not bench shoot without a shot bag between the butt and my shoulder!
> 
> Cheers ....Charles


The .375 is a beast for sure...
.375 compared to .338 and quarter







.223, .243 and .308 (7.62)


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## WILD BILL

The 30-06 or the 308 would be my choice. With the proper ammo for the job, these two calibers are more than capable.

The BARNES VOR-TX ammunition offers TSX,TIPPED TSX AND TSX FN. This is a fairly new (2 yrs) new factory ammo that is mighty good

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/ammunition/choose-your-vor-tx/6607-2/

Good luck! It is going to be quite rewarding one you finally do connect.

Bill


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## Bill Hays

Nothing again last night... today the wind shifted so that it's coming from the North, blowing the hanging chicken bait scent in towards the woods... tonight might be the night... if not then the thing probably moved on for now.

About the .243 Winchester, it's basically a wildcatted .308... the muzzle velocity is over 3000 fps out of my little rifle, so that zeroes the 100 grain bullet at about 500 feet. Extremely flat shooting... I don't really need to compensate for bullet rise/drop at ranges between 20 - 200 meters... the bullet will impact within 1 ½ inches ±.... put the crosshairs on the heart and squeeze away. 
For longer ranges I'd probably go with a heavier caliber to get more energy on target... but for the short range I'm going to be shooting from, the .243 has plenty enough energy to take any "big bad" out there, and since it's at night and the range is short anyway... it's the right round for the job.


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## Charles

Too bad you did not nail him, Bill. But it does sound like he has moved on. If he is not competing for the local territory, chances are he might eventually come back around and give you another chance at him.

Cheers ........ Charles


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## MartinB

Any updates?


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## Bill Hays

Nothing to report. I think he's moved on for now.... but I do need to stay aware as now I know we're part of his range.... which means rifles stay loaded and kids can't play outside at night for a while.


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## Berkshire bred

shame about the kids not being allowed out with him around, keep us posted


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## capt eddie

Have you though of keeping Livestock protection dogs? I have 4 Akbash. We have free range chickens on 10 acres of fences property. We have only lost 1 chicken to an early morning owl. But we do find the remains of stray dogs, raccoon and snakes in the yard. I am not saying that the dogs wil kill a big cat, but they will let you know they are around.


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## Rapier

Theres a thought eddie, why don't you use a pic of one of your's for your avatar?!? Had to look up images to see what they are. Kind of like a white Labish looking dog. They have the air of protector like Labs do to. I bet their as loyal as anything.


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## Adirondack Kyle

That cat obviously NEVER seen you shoot before, big mistake , sorry about your goat dude, be safe!


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## Charles

I was reminded of this topic by the news this morning. This has been the year of the cougar on Vancouver Island. Normally Fish and Wildlife has to do about 15-20 field kills of cougars per year ... cougars threatening humans or livestock. This year they have had to field kill 47 so far.

There is a year round open season on cougars here. Hunters were encouraged to take large males. But the males often prey on the young cougars. So, hunters taking mostly males over the last several years has led to an increased survival rate of young cougars. When they get to about 2 years old, mom kicks them out and they have to establish their own territory. Competition is really tough, so they move into more urban areas. Now Fish and Wildlife are changing their policy and advocating that hunters take more females.

I may have to carry something heavier than a slingshot when I walk the bush ....

Cheers ..... Charles


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## JEFF BURG

i think i would use the lot on that bastard


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## reset

When we are out in the foothills or mountains on horseback i got my 45/70 lever gun in the scabbard. On foot fishing or hiking the old shottie is by my side. Never go without one or the other in the bush. Helps give a guy a fighting chance with bears and big kitties i hope.

Problem with the big cats is they dont like to face ya. So usually they come from behind. Mostly you wont even know they are there till its to late. If your horseback you will know something is up as the horse will let ya know. Just watch his ears.

A old trapper i used to know would tie a big white hanky to his hat in the back. He would draw a face with eyes on it. He swore it kept the kittys at bay cause of the face. Never was sure if he was kidding as i never saw him wear it. And i wasnt falling for it by asking lol.


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## Bill Hays

I'll tell you what... my Wife saw a big cat about a month ago... something that's not supposed to exist, or at least up this far.

She was walking with the kids in the predawn down the driveway and there was a BIG black cat. She said it was about as long as the width of the driveway... had a long sleek tail and yellow eyes.

It just stood there and looked at her, didn't run off or act spooked.

So I went out and bought a rifle just for her, one that is light, fast and plenty accurate... and is more than capable of killing a big cat like a mountain lion... or even a jaguar.

I got her a DPMS Panther ORC in .223, set it up with an Eotech 512, a streamlight TLR-1 HL and loaded it up with some real good bullets like I used to use in my duty weapon... Hornady 75 grainers, hollow points, boat tails and 3000 FPS.... with this she can hit a soda can sized target with no compensation from 5 meters out to close to 300 meters.

And with the Eotech on there it's actually easy to line up and shoot than it is on a video game.

Here she is shooting it for the first time:

First shot was a pickle jar and of course the next two were soda cans






Here's a comparison of what it looks like when a slingshot does the same shot on a soda pop can:






For me, I bought a new rifle as well... "Merry Christmas Bill"!

I got a DiamondBack AR with a heavy barrel... I started with an Eotech as well, but have moved to a cheap prismatic scope with 4X magnification and the light setup is a Streamlight TLR-1 HP which throws the beam way out there for my use on coyotes and stuff late at night.


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## treefork

Don't go messing around the Hays' house! lol


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## LVO

Your wife rocks, Bill!!!


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## mrpaint

thats awesome Bill, about the guns that is... not so much about the cat. How do you like the diamondback? I have heard some good things about them, I got my spikes tactical ar15 a few months back and love it, chambered for 5.56 of course. And despite what people think 223 and 556 are not the same, and most manufacturers say its a bad idea to shoot 5.56 out of a 223 rifle. Also what kind of 4x optic are you using? I got a vortex within a few weeks of getting the gun, and love it... so far they seem to be really solid and cheap optics.


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## ghost0311/8541

a few years back i was walking a field that i take care of with my 22 hornet over 20 ga and seen what i thought was a coyote and set up to take a shot when it grabbed the top of a fence post and pulled it self up and sat on top of it thats when i knew it was not a coyote. in the pic if you see where it ate the stomach out it because that how it get its vegges watch kidds and pets when they are around.


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## KITROBASKIN

That Night Fury looks just right to me.

Last I heard (few years ago) jaguar tracks found in the boot heel region of New Mexico but I'm not current on it. Heard that the Big Bend area was the only place in the United States where vampire bats have been seen. The mountain lion that was causing a problem in our neighborhood in the 90's, filled the whole width of a full size pick up truck bed, from chest to base of tail, just about. And the tail was very long. 6 year old male. The newspaper reported it weighed about 160 lb. It killed my neighbor friend's dog the night before, so I was patrolling her property every hour (with a Ruger Blackhawk Hunter and my Ridgeback/Sharpei cross). Earlier, it had tried to get a dog a mile or so away (New Mexico Fish and Wildlife was called) so after the lion tried to kill my dog, we called the officer's cell phone, and they were already setting up with the man with the lion hunting dogs. They showed up less than an hour later. I showed them where the attack occurred. They had 4(?) Walker hounds loose and 2 Bloodhounds on leads. Maybe 3 hours later they showed me the lion. It smelled of skunk and you could see his ribs.


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## Bill Hays

Yeah, I've seen black Jaguars when I was down in Belize, and from what I can tell it would be far more likely if it's black that it's a Jaguar and not a Mountain Lion... But my Wife is pretty certain it had a big Mountain Lion look to it not like a Jaguar.

Anyway, she's carrying an AR when she does her predawn activities now... at least until we get this thing sorted.

My aunt lives down the road and something killed her bulldog and ate it out just like the goat was.... generally speaking, Jaguars hate dogs and will kill and eat them, whereas most Mountain Lions tend to avoid them... especially tougher ones like bully breeds. Anyway that's what I've been told by the game warden we called about all of this... he also said Mountain Lions are not a protected species in this area so kill away, it's fine.

The DiamondBack AR... well MrPaint, it was a surprise to me. I saw it at Walmart when we went to go and buy my Wife some more bullets and I asked the clerk to let me check it out as I've never seen a DB AR before.... I've played around with a lot of different AR frames by many different manufacturers so I was expecting to find a lot problems with it right away.

I was wrong.

This thing was just about perfect feeling... great balance, free floating heavy barrel, adjustable "sniper" stock, a VERY well made extended aluminum forend with full length 1913 rail on top and about 3" rails on the other three sides.... Well needless to say after actually holding the gun and working the action, feeling how it felt when shouldered.... I bought it right then and there. (Wife was real happy about that...lol)

The best thing about the gun was the next day when I took it out to sight it in... my typical 110' setup using laser boresite bullets to get it close first, I shouldered the weapon with the laser bullet chambered and my natural POA was exactly dead on with the weapon... so it made sighting it in a breeze and literally within 10 minutes I was making sub MOA groups at around 50 yards from the standing position and from the braced seated position I shot sub MOA from 200 yards.

For $847, I've never had a weapon perform so well... and it's a semi auto at that! I've had a few tuned bolt operated sniper rifles and this one is right there with the best, and it didn't cost as much as a nice used car!

About the optics... I went with an Eotech setup to start with (about $550) but ended up with a very inexpensive Omega manufacturing 4X35 scope, looks like this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/OmegaMfg-Tactical-4x-Prismatic-Rifle-Scope-Mil-Spec-Chevron-Reticle-/271340271125?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2d23f615

Like most snipers, I don't like a lot of unnecessary clutter in the reticle and the finer the lines the better for precision.. This scope with it's chevron and hair-fine lines is really nice. It gives you about 95% the speed of the Eotech, but without the big 65 moa circle that makes precision shooting harder to do at night at greater distances.

I was wary of it at first because of the price... quality optics can cost quite a bit you know, but at $68 I went on ahead and gambled... and it really paid off.

This little scope is very clear, very tough and doesn't look to bad either.

If I were to custom order a scope, the only things I'd change are I'd make it 4X50, and have red as the only other illumination color with a lower first setting.


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## JEFF BURG

man that is one heck of a sling shot Bill.


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## mrpaint

sweet Bill, glad you like it... I have seen and held a few different diamondback ARs, but never shot one. As for the scope sometimes more expensive isn't always better, however like you said when you are playing with optics it can be a real gamble. I was actually looking at a similar scope to put on my 10/22, it seems like a good compromise between a red dot and a variable power full on scope. Plus it looks like a acog, and is about 1/20th the price. cheers


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## KITROBASKIN

From the December 2013 National Geographic: reporting that many people see black cougars even though no scientist has ever shown evidence of their existence.


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## jonathanfv

Holy crap, I just read the whole thread, it's quite an adventure! Old thread, but how likely do you think it is that there could be a jaguar in your area? I heard they're the stealthiest and most cunning predators there is, and they can stalk their preys for long distances without ever being seen. Really scary stuff. I would understand how it could come and go without getting caught, if your area is covered by thick vegetation.


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## Micknewch

Good luck protecting yours. They are magnificent animals though. Bon champs.


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## D.Nelson

WILD BILL said:


> I'd say the 308 would be my favorite for this job. I do love the big hand guns though. I'd like to put my Excalibur X- Bow and 150gr Vortex BH on it.
> 
> Here is a bit of Cougar hide being put to use
> 
> In would imagine that the liver and lites were eaten first.
> 
> Did you make BBQ?


Wow I live the dog coat! Haha.

I'd say take it with the .308 as well.


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## BillyBob

Just came across this thread when I was searching for something else...whatever happened with the big cat Bill? Did u get him. Sorry for resurrecting an old thread but I gotta know lol...


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## zippo

treefork said:


> That cougar didn't know it trespassed on the wrong farm. Post us pics of the ending.Have a feeling that will be tonight. R.I.P


Ha  sure didnt end that night


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## Bill Hays

I'll tell you what happened with the big cat... about 3 months ago I was walking down to our guest house past the big pond up front it was about 3:30 am... when I go out that late I generally carry a Ruger 10/22 set up for late night varmint shooting, it has a Streamlight TLR-1 HP light, a 4 X AR scope, a DPT modular silencer with 8 baffles, a doubled 10 round magazine and it's outfitted in a folding stock...

So anyway, while I was walking past the pond my flashlight reflected two BIG yellow eyes that looked to be about 4 inches apart... It was about 200' away and I couldn't tell what animal it was as it's body was shielded by a clump of young willow trees... so I called out to it just in case it was a dog I haven't seen before...

It didn't move or respond so I switched on the gun light and then took aim directly between the eyes... I fired.. phwup-smack! The thing let out the loudest most blood curdling scream I've ever heard, so emptied the magazine into where I figured it's body must be... the damn thing was growling and going completely nuts as I hit it at least 5 times according to my ears and the noise of the impacts... flipped the mag, loaded the other side and fired off five more rounds, keeping 5 just in case the thing decided to charge me...

The thing continued to scream and growl knocking down the little willows, and now I could see it definitely was a big black cat.... so I kept my light on the thing as long as possible while continuing to walk to the guest house so I could get a bigger gun to finish this chapter...

After reaching the house, I took my old .308 and headed back down to the pond... there was no movement and I couldn't tell if anything was there so I decided to head back to the house and wait until it's light before going over there just in case I've got an enraged jaguar on my hands...

After the sun was up I went back down there loaded for bear (literally) and I couldn't find him anywhere... there was blood, prints and broken trees, but no cat...

Since that time no one in the area has reported seeing it again... so hopefully the thing had such a bad experience he won't be coming back.

Regardless, now when I go out late at night or very early in the morning I carry a Taurus 605 (.357 magnum) at a minimum... I still carry the .22 lr but the pistol is in my pocket just in case something heavier hitting is needed.


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## jonathanfv

Woah! So, you aimed between the eyes, unloaded your magazine at random on it, and it still got away? I know it's just .22 LR, but still! That's crazy! That thread is nuts!


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## zippo

He must be dead, i do not have any big cats where i live, a black cat is not a mountain lion right ? Then what is it ?


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## jonathanfv

Read the rest of the thread, it's all in there. It's probably a jaguar. Scary stuff. Might not be dead. Might have died way further after running away.


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## BillyBob

Hey Bill, glad to hear u haven't had any reported big cat activity for 3 months. That must be a relief as far as your kids are concerned! Still it must be frustrating that u didn't get a body after all the trouble you went to!!


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## Henry the Hermit

A black mountain lion (Cougar) is called a Panther, but it is still a Cougar, just as a black Jaguar is still a Jaguar. What Bill saw is most likely a Jaguar.

Oops, forgot, I saw a black Jaguar here in Panama about 30 years ago. It was a magnificent animal.


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## Tag

AR15.


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## YHY slinger

What a hunting experience!


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## fsimpson

i vote for the .500 s&w------good hunting


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## Oldbattleaxe

Cougars are making a comeback down in the southernmost parts of Texas, too. I raise dwarf goats an I'm not but a few miles from Laguna Attascosa, so we hafta keep our eyes peeled. I like your Boar goats, but if I'm not mistaken, haven't I seen a dwarf in one of your videos?


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