# Myth Vs Facts? Tall/short Fork, Hammer/fingerbraced Accuracy



## strikewzen

i have been experimenting with many shapes of traditional/non-traditional slingshots, pretty much any shape and material

the question is... if one design is superior to another why aren't we all using the same exact shape and design if one is inherently more accurate than others?

1)the myth that tall forks put more strain on the wrist, holds true only if you hold the slingshot steady for whatever purpose be it aiming or control breathing while the band is drawn at it's intended maximum.
if you flip the slingshot and only reach maximum draw for a split second than tall forks actually help, try flipping a short fork vs a tall one you will feel the difference.

2)the myth - finger braced design is more advanced in engineering aspect than hammergrip, plausible, again depending on your shooting technique.

however personally i suspect a potential flaw in the design of finger braced ss, is that during the flipping motion the user might not be able to apply equal pressure on left and right side of the slingshot and cause a slight torsion of of forks.

a pinky hole might also add to the slight torsion (can be prevented with technique) since pressure is applied more to one side

whereas hammergrip the slingshot is self centering, requiring less self control to execute a flawless flipping release

* what is the conclusion...? please share with us what you think of each fundamental design and if the increased accuracy can be explained.

right now i am thinking all slingshots are of equal in terms of accuracy and precision, be it a tall hammer grip natural or a pinky hole fingerbraced in carbon fiber. you just have to employ different techniques and adapt to each design.

thanks guys!


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## LVO

I personally don't believe that one design is inherently more accurate than another. There are some wicked shooters out there and they are all using a variety of frames, or in Dgui's case, NO frame. 
Just look at the different slings being used by our 3 match lighters(so far). 
If the frame is stable, and bandset can give you predictable, repeatable behavior, it all comes down to the shooters skill. 
This is just my opinion. Looking forward to more replies


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## ebooks886

I agree, I believe all frames can be equally accurate but each may require different techniques to achieve that accuracy. The key is in finding a frame that fits your shooting style in order to maximise accuracy as I believe most people have a preference over technique and will therefore adapt most easily to certain frames. I'm useless at butterfly and hammer grip so my most used is a Bill Hays Shrike as it fits my preferred technique.This then leads to it being my most accurate shooter because the consistency and repeatability comes more naturally to me with this style.


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## pop shot

for me, mechanics (repeatability, release, routine) are the most critical part of accuracy. i can pick up an awkward frame and shoot it accurately, but not for an extended amount of time. that's where the ergonomics of a frame come into play. you don't have to strain or contort your hand and arm to get to your sweet spot. One afternoon i shot my go-to frame the covert hunter for 600 shots in one session and my hands, arms and shoulders were fine. i shot 200 shots in a session with a dankung and the next day my wrist and fingers of my frame hand were a bit sore from holding that awkward frame.


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## pop shot

also, i think it's silly to think that long forks don't strain the wrist. leverage doesn't just cease to exist. your technique can counteract or mitigate it (pointing the forks or high gripping,) but it's still there. a quick release just shortens the duration of the strain on the wrist.


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## jskeen

I would have to agree. accuracy is a result of consistant, repeatable actions. A frame either aids this, or detracts from it. What is consistant and repeatable for one person may not be for another.

As for fork height vs wrist strain, again, it is very dependant on how an individual person holds, presents draws and shoots a given fork. but with all other factors being equal, a taller fork will require more force to hold when drawn than a shorter one IN THAT POSITION. changing any other factor may invalidate the results.


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## strikewzen

thanks guys for your input, it seems that everyone has a favorite slingshot, thanks pop shot for recommending the covert hunter frame, if everyone can also name their go to slingshot that would be awesome

i failed to specify why tall forks do not strain the wrist, for intuitive shooters who flip (i think most do) we don't go to the 90 degree (approx slingshot angle in relation to forearm) full draw before flipping, so the forks are slanted toward user during initial draw and the pouch hand pulls back the moment the ss hand flips, and pouch is released while the flip is halfway through

since the flip forward motion is non static and continuous the strain is over compensated for, (ie you can punch harder than push and hold) i always wondered why so many people used tall forks and after trying one it explains everything, with an aggressive flip style tall forks are actually a benefit


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## pop shot

If you look at most of the top shooters you'll see that they shoot either high braced grips or low forked cats. mostly.
Bill hays- high grip gangsta
Tex- high grip gangsta
Roger henrie- Not too sure, but I think pointing style mid grip (gangsta?)
Hawk- hammer mid height forks
Torsten- extremely low fork, high grip gangsta
Wubby2 (gk)- high grip gangster
Mj- high grip, gangsta
Jim Harris- not sure, but he shoots an sps, so high grip something
Flatband- high grip 
Bean flip- high grip gangsta
Darrel- essentially high grip low fork
Philly- high grip vertical
Blue skeen- I think high grip vertical. 
Please feel free to expand/correct this list


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## strikewzen

rufus hussey = tall natural fork


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## watcher by night

Strikewzen, you analyzed the tall fork/flip situation very well. I know a shooter who uses tall forks and flip-style and is very accurate. Due to the forward slant of the fork as peak draw and release occurs, the "lever arm" of the fork is effectually shortened. This particular shooter actually braces his thumb against the handle right below where the forks join, so there's a third variation in style besides hammer grip and finger braced on both forks.


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## pop shot

strikewzen said:


> rufus hussey = tall natural fork


rufus hussey- godlike instinctual shooter.

exactly why i said most not all.


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## newconvert

pop shot said:


> also, i think it's silly to think that long forks don't strain the wrist. leverage doesn't just cease to exist. your technique can counteract or mitigate it (pointing the forks or high gripping,) but it's still there. a quick release just shortens the duration of the strain on the wrist.


i have to agree with mr. PS physics dont just fly out the window, if you have any type of weakness in your hand you can see the differences instantly whem more leverage is applied, this is the fulcrum, the farther from center mass.........................................


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## strikewzen

newconvert said:


> also, i think it's silly to think that long forks don't strain the wrist. leverage doesn't just cease to exist. your technique can counteract or mitigate it (pointing the forks or high gripping,) but it's still there. a quick release just shortens the duration of the strain on the wrist.


i have to agree with mr. PS physics dont just fly out the window, if you have any type of weakness in your hand you can see the differences instantly whem more leverage is applied, this is the fulcrum, the farther from center mass.........................................
[/quote]

i failed to explain the technique in words, if you can take a minute at this video






at how maximum tension is reached while wrist is in motion, with forks too short the leverage arm is too small for this to work well

thanks


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## strikewzen

i have done translation for the above video here http://slingshotforum.com/topic/10709-flip-shooting/

please scroll down the tread if interested, thanks


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## Karok01

Everyone shoots differently. Fork height effectiveness varies from one person to the other. Just my 2 cent.


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## newconvert

strikewzen said:


> also, i think it's silly to think that long forks don't strain the wrist. leverage doesn't just cease to exist. your technique can counteract or mitigate it (pointing the forks or high gripping,) but it's still there. a quick release just shortens the duration of the strain on the wrist.


i have to agree with mr. PS physics dont just fly out the window, if you have any type of weakness in your hand you can see the differences instantly whem more leverage is applied, this is the fulcrum, the farther from center mass.........................................
[/quote]

i failed to explain the technique in words, if you can take a minute at this video






at how maximum tension is reached while wrist is in motion, with forks too short the leverage arm is too small for this to work well

thanks
[/quote]
i've seen this commando lol, he's the kung fu sling shot guy, the Dankung shill


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## KennyCannon

@Pop Shot - Skeen and Gary both use Starships.

Braced slingshots that either cover the full arm to the elbow (WRP) or are a "starship" type (covers full arm with brace at end) are more accurate than any other fork design. The design eliminates the entire front hand and only leaves aiming and release to the shooter. As long as your bands are set correctly and you can aim and release, you'll hit around 90% of the time after about a 2,000 shot "getting used to" period.

And when we are talking accuracy, we can't just talk about close shooting. Accurate means being able to hit consistently at various distances.

The reason why we all aren't shooting this type of slingshot is because of who makes them.


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## LVO

Kenny's last comment
"The reason why we all aren't shooting this type of slingshot is because of who makes them"
Huh? Please explain that,
thanks


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## pop shot

You misunderstood the term tall
Forks, Kenny. When I say tall forks, I mean the distance perpendicular to the line of pull. I'm also talking about non braced ss, starships and your wrp both include the stronger forearm to counter the bands. They also use lighter bands and a longer draw length to get more power for less pull weight (less strain)


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## KennyCannon

LVO said:


> Kenny's last comment
> "The reason why we all aren't shooting this type of slingshot is because of who makes them"
> Huh? Please explain that,
> thanks


The custom vendors don't make them. That's who we buy from.


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## KennyCannon

pop shot said:


> You misunderstood the term tall
> Forks, Kenny. When I say tall forks, I mean the distance perpendicular to the line of pull. I'm also talking about non braced ss, starships and your wrp both include the stronger forearm to counter the bands. They also use lighter bands and a longer draw length to get more power for less pull weight (less strain)


I thought you were just talking about overall accuracy.


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## newconvert

KennyCannon said:


> Kenny's last comment
> "The reason why we all aren't shooting this type of slingshot is because of who makes them"
> Huh? Please explain that,
> thanks


The custom vendors don't make them. That's who we buy from.
[/quote]well that is person by person as well i have my share of customs because of the designs, but when i see something i want and its not available i make it myself, or something i dont like (comfort)(braced) than i leave them alone.


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## pop shot

KennyCannon said:


> You misunderstood the term tall
> Forks, Kenny. When I say tall forks, I mean the distance perpendicular to the line of pull. I'm also talking about non braced ss, starships and your wrp both include the stronger forearm to counter the bands. They also use lighter bands and a longer draw length to get more power for less pull weight (less strain)


I thought you were just talking about overall accuracy.
[/quote]
the whole thread is about tall forks vs. short/finger braced forks. i would say starships are a whole different category. they're way more stable because they use different (bigger) muscles to stabilize. (shoulders and forearm) i think it was you talking about the wrp when you said "it takes the front hand out of the equation" same for starships. but they get extra draw length which means more speed for less pull.


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## pop shot

i'm an idiot, you already said that.

but- another point. starships, pocket shooters, whatever slingshots are only as accurate as the shooter. we're off the line of this thread anyway.


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## Henry the Hermit

Just my $2.02 (adjusted for inflation), but if starships and wrist braced were more accurate than simple forks, all the top makers would be offering them. I have a starship and a wrist braced and can't hit anything with either one.


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## KennyCannon

pop shot said:


> starships, pocket shooters, whatever slingshots are only as accurate as the shooter.


I disagree, but ok. That's almost like saying a rifle that's laid on a rest and a rifle that held and shot are only as accurate as the shooter.

Yes, the shooter plays a role, but the shooter plays much less of a role when the front hand is taken out.

I went from shooting a boardcut from a custom maker (nameless) and shooting 3's and 4's in January to buying a WRP in March and shooting 9's and 10's 2 days later. I highly doubt that I improved my shooting that much in a 48 hour period.

I give my slingshot about 80% of the credit.


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## Dayhiker

Now that is interesting.


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## pop shot

bad form = bad accuracy. good form= consistency and eventual accuracy. wrp (more than a starship) mimics good front hand form, which is half the battle. i'm not really interested in arguing about this. i'm calling a truce. you shoot your wrp, i'll shoot my whatever-i'm-holding-at-the-moment, and we can both be happy.


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## Performance Catapults

Henry in Panama said:


> starships, pocket shooters, whatever slingshots are only as accurate as the shooter.


I disagree, but ok. That's almost like saying a rifle that's laid on a rest and a rifle that held and shot are only as accurate as the shooter.

Yes, the shooter plays a role, but the shooter plays much less of a role when the front hand is taken out.

I went from shooting a boardcut from a custom maker (nameless) and shooting 3's and 4's in January to buying a WRP in March and shooting 9's and 10's 2 days later. I highly doubt that I improved my shooting that much in a 48 hour period.

I give my slingshot about 80% of the credit.
[/quote]

Simple...you like the feel of that particular design more than a boardcut. Thats why there are many designs, and not just one.


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## mrpaint

you guys lost me about a page and half ago, whats the diff between a wrist braced and starship ss?

nevermind i figured it out


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## KennyCannon

Henry in Panama said:


> Just my $2.02 (adjusted for inflation), but if starships and wrist braced were more accurate than simple forks, all the top makers would be offering them. I have a starship and a wrist braced and can't hit anything with either one.


Lets say a random vendor sells a handheld slingshot. That slingshot costs about $25 to make in materials plus time. That slingshot sells for $125. That's a "numbers" profit of $100 (this doesn't take into account the time spent making).

Now take a slingshot that requires 4 times the amount of materials and 4 times the amount of time. At the same numbers as above, the slingshot would cost $100 to make and would sell for $400.

It's not that they can't make them. With the work that guys like Jim, Nathan, Perry and others do, they ALL can make some great starships.

The question is, how many people are willing to lay out $400 for a slingshot?

If I were a custom maker, I'd be pumping out the $125 product as much as possible (while offering lower end products as well at lower price points) and wouldn't waste my time on the $400 slingshot because I'd know that the product would price me out of the market.

And I adjusted all my numbers for inflation as well


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## KennyCannon

pop shot said:


> bad form = bad accuracy. good form= consistency and eventual accuracy. wrp (more than a starship) mimics good front hand form, which is half the battle. i'm not really interested in arguing about this. i'm calling a truce. you shoot your wrp, i'll shoot my whatever-i'm-holding-at-the-moment, and we can both be happy.


It's all about having fun!


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## Henry the Hermit

KennyCannon said:


> Just my $2.02 (adjusted for inflation), but if starships and wrist braced were more accurate than simple forks, all the top makers would be offering them. I have a starship and a wrist braced and can't hit anything with either one.


Lets say a random vendor sells a handheld slingshot. That slingshot costs about $25 to make in materials plus time. That slingshot sells for $125. That's a "numbers" profit of $100 (this doesn't take into account the time spent making).

Now take a slingshot that requires 4 times the amount of materials and 4 times the amount of time. At the same numbers as above, the slingshot would cost $100 to make and would sell for $400.

It's not that they can't make them. With the work that guys like Jim, Nathan, Perry and others do, they ALL can make some great starships.

The question is, how many people are willing to lay out $400 for a slingshot?

If I were a custom maker, I'd be pumping out the $125 product as much as possible (while offering lower end products as well at lower price points) and wouldn't waste my time on the $400 slingshot because I'd know that the product would price me out of the market.

And I adjusted all my numbers for inflation as well








[/quote]

I'm following PopShot's lead and surrendering. You win. I'm just too stupid to figure out what works best for me.


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## pop shot

Not surrendering, Henry. Just not making an enemy. I still stand by everything I said. Good form makes good shooters.


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## KennyCannon

pop shot said:


> Not surrendering, Henry. Just not making an enemy. I still stand by everything I said. Good form makes good shooters.


And slingshots that force you to have good form (Starships, WRPs) make shooters with bad form (like me) into shooters who consistently shoot 9's and 10's.


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## Henry the Hermit

pop shot said:


> Not surrendering, Henry. Just not making an enemy. I still stand by everything I said. Good form makes good shooters.


My apologies, and of course you are right about what makes good shooters.


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## pop shot

yes, kenny. you're an excellent shooter*

*with a starship or WRP


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## KennyCannon

pop shot said:


> yes, kenny. you're an excellent shooter*
> 
> *with a starship or WRP


Thanks for proving my point. Without a starship or WRP, I'm terrible. I have the videos to prove it. And as far as I know, WRPs and Starships are allowed in all competition. I was the one who said they should be in a separate class and people jumped all over me for that as well.


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## pop shot

i didn't prove anything, Kenny. but i would be interested in seeing one of those videos out of curiosity


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## KennyCannon

You can see here where I can even hit a plate.


Code:


<br />
[URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch]http://www.youtube.com/watch[/URL]?v=vjhm49W5614<br />

Then you can see when I first got my WRP here at the end of Feb.


Code:


<br />
[URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch]http://www.youtube.com/watch[/URL]?v=PgRHH-RQDio<br />

Then you can see here, my going 23 in a row on a 3" target at 10 meters in April


Code:


<br />
[URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch]http://www.youtube.com/watch[/URL]?v=p6VHElaFCtY<br />

Then you can see my entry into the competition for May.

We didn't get video of me going 29 for 30 at the ECST, but there were witnesses.

We also never mentioned that I got a bull taken away for miscounting my ammo on my 25 yrd target. That dropped me from second to fourth.

10% of this success is because I've practiced and became somewhat of a better all around shooter. 90% of it is because of the equipment I use.


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## richblades

hmmm, I believe I will work on form myself.
It wouldnt be any fun for me if my tools did all the work.
I have always tinkered at plaing guitars, and got pretty good with an el cheapo epiphone with a not so hot action on the neck.
So I bought a 1500 dollar Alvarez with great fast easy action and all the pros make beautiful music with.
Seems that my form still was playing at epiphone level even with the high priced model.
Kept the epiphone, worked on form, and now can fisih whole songs before hitting a sour note.
Ohhh the ramblings of old rockstar wannabes.


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## treefork

Has anybody lit a match from 75ft.using a starship or wrp?


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## KennyCannon

treefork said:


> Has anybody lit a match from 75ft.using a starship or wrp?


I don't know anyone who's tried. Again, doing things on video is much more about time as opposed to skill. I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone but the fact is that if you give me unlimited time and a video camera, I'll eventually light a match. Anyone will if they are willing to stand there for as long as it takes.


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## newconvert

you put a tool in one mans hands he can do incredible things, the same tool in another mans hands and he'll break it? same thing with cars, guns, paint brush.
its not the tool, its the mechanic + his tool of choice.


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## KennyCannon

I'm just going to leave this thread alone because it's obvious that my point is just not getting across.


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## lightgeoduck

newconvert said:


> you put a tool in one mans hands he can do incredible things, the same tool in another mans hands and he'll break it? same thing with cars, guns, paint brush.
> its not the tool, its the mechanic + his tool of choice.


I put my tool in my wife,s hands









Tall fork topic:

Like it has been mentioned the strain is more the longer the forks,, even if you shorten the hold time. If you change how you shoot it, with the example of angling it back to " flip" it, in a sense you are " shortening" the forks by adjusting the point of force. This also occurs when people choke up on the grip. Most of my other points have already been said, and I am typing on a tablet so I will omit most of my explanation









Side bar : nothing wrong with leaving the training wheels on if you enjoy the ride


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## pop shot

KennyCannon said:


> I'm just going to leave this thread alone because it's obvious that my point is just not getting across.


kenny- i tried (twice) to diffuse the situation, but you just couldn't let it go. if you want to tout the supposed instant accurracy of the WRP or starships, start a thread, don't hijack this thread to make a point. this thread WAS about tall forks vs. low forks. now it's just a pissing match. if i bought a WRP would it make you drop it? is that what i have to do? i'll give it to my 8 year old nephew so he can outshoot me. maybe he'll even light a match.


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## Henry the Hermit

KennyCannon said:


> I'm just going to leave this thread alone because it's obvious that my point is just not getting across.


Maybe you should quit trying to convince others that what works for you will work for everyone. Most of us have tried wrist braced slingshots and some have made starships. We rarely use either for a reason.


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## strikewzen

Kenny and Pop you are both great people and contributors of the forum, i've always considered you as friends

my understanding of slingshot shooting has changed everyday for the past 2~3 years through viewing this forum with an open mind, and what i said yesterday can totally change tomorrow...

as you can see many don't agree with my advocating of tall forks, and lack the interest to understand why, that's totally fine!

i think you are both right! and one day both of you will say oh hey WRPs are pretty cool or hey i can also shoot well with a normal one..

until that day comes i hope we can all be friends and share without restrain


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## M.J

KennyCannon said:


> I'm just going to leave this thread alone because it's obvious that my point is just not getting across.


 I think your point is made, you really like your WRP.


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## KennyCannon

pop shot said:


> I'm just going to leave this thread alone because it's obvious that my point is just not getting across.


kenny- i tried (twice) to diffuse the situation, but you just couldn't let it go. if you want to tout the supposed instant accurracy of the WRP or starships, start a thread, don't hijack this thread to make a point. this thread WAS about tall forks vs. low forks. now it's just a pissing match. if i bought a WRP would it make you drop it? is that what i have to do? i'll give it to my 8 year old nephew so he can outshoot me. maybe he'll even light a match.
[/quote]

Again, I'll leave this alone. I have absolutely nothing to prove to you Popshot. Just do everyone a favor, don't accuse me of hijacking a thread. I didn't hijack anything.


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## KennyCannon

M_J said:


> I'm just going to leave this thread alone because it's obvious that my point is just not getting across.


 I think your point is made, you really like your WRP.
[/quote]

I like my WRP, yes. I also like common sense and science as well.


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