# Could this Hathcock mod work?



## gonene1 (May 24, 2015)

I have a pocket predator seal sniper and i love it.

The two things that i wished where different are , it being able to easily take tubes. and make it having a bit narrower fork , so i can aim with light bands without the fork blocking my aim. (in my seal sniper , if i put the target on the aiming dimple it will hit too low, a narrow fork will hit higher then the fork).

I also wanted a sight , which is something that i really liked in the Chinese slingshots. (gives me a visual aid)

I thought that since i already have a seal sniper i can make another model and add the modifications that i wanted in it.

I made this sketch , it's not symmetrical or anything to work with, just something to get the idea.

I traced the Hathcock and added a modified sight\fork tip from the photo in this link.

http://slingshotforum.com/gallery/image/14675-the-marmoset-tx-target-executor/

Here is my sketch ,

I thought i'd make it from plywood , and the window of the sight I'd fit with a clear transparent plastic on which I'll draw the lines in red marker.

I also changed the slots for the tube insertion from diagonal bottom , to upper vertical .

Do you think it could work ?


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## bigron (Nov 29, 2012)

really only one way to know is to try it but before you do anything drastic to your shooter if you have some plywood around cut out a prototype and try it


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## jazz (May 15, 2012)

I agree with bigron above, this can work, why not, but before you make one and try you wouldn't know.

However, I do not think that such a big sticking device (sight) is realy neccesary and in the same time does not bring more positive points (sight) than negative ones (pocketability).

What Bill does, the groove in the middle of the band area or even making marks on the rubber themselves seems to be more simple and effective enough.

Just my opinion since I use different types of slingshots.

cheers,

jazz


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## slingshooterPT (Feb 22, 2014)

in my view there is no reason not to work, choose a anchor point that for example you can hit the target at 10m with the top cross airs , than you just need to realize what sight to use at longer distances!


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## Byudzai (Aug 31, 2013)

my solution to this has been the two-tubes attachment. at closer distances your target is prone to lie above the side of the fork, so I understand your motivation. wide forks help close that gap. for further distances, sighting between the tubes keeps your windage on target. you can leave both eyes open to "look through" the fork if your target it actually behind the fork; for further distances you are looking between the tubes and between the forks.

the two-rail sight does allow you to cheat up some distance above the fork for closer targets by eyeballing your windage, but it's not quite as precise.

would love to see your mod tho! a firm red piece of fiber optic might be less bulky than the sight you propose. something soft enough to bend but firm enough to return to vertical.


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## gonene1 (May 24, 2015)

Thanks Jazz

pocketability is something to think about.

Maybe i can make the frame without the sight and connect on the back side a kind of fordable sight like this?

It can be attached with a screw which can be tighten and the above square is a stopper.

What do you think?

Byudzai

at close range the aim be through a lower spot on the fork, then it goes higher and then low again, like in this diagram.

I plan to make the slingshot smaller then the original.

I will learn to use it without a sight , but at start this should help.

If i make it a detachable one i can remove it after i learn the aiming point for 2m or 4m or 6m

The targets should be sparrows from 2m 3m 4m 5m and not much farther, they eat my seedlings and annoy me

They are tiny and very hard to hit , Up to this day i did not hit a single one, though i was very close every time .

If they where from 10m i probably could hit them because i am familiar with this distance (as you can see the 10m badge)

But a tool for shot distance intervals will help me a lot.


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## jazz (May 15, 2012)

I think that device can definitely work, for me is even quite inovative since I never seen something like that, but, as always, the success will be in its execution: if you manage to make it easily manipulated (close it, open it, adjust etc) then you scored.

I can not be of much help with aiming because for some time now I practice looking at the target and letting all other variables adjust themselves; not an easy task and not something that bring fast results, quite contrary..

cheers,

jazz


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## gonene1 (May 24, 2015)

Well i never saw a sight like that as well.

for me is even quite inovative since I never seen something like that,

But i saw a video of Joerg Sprave visit of simple shots, and there was a slingshot with a foldable knife in it .






now just take a look at this photo of a pocket knife and tell me that the saw in it does not look like a slingshot sight










I have had no idea how to put it so it folds inside the plywood , so i thought making a foldable sight (elevation gauge) just like a pocket knife or a foldable can\bottle opener .

anyways i have a couple of narrow fork slingshots , they are pocketable but shoots higher then the fork tip (if this is what i use to aim).

there was a video by Bill Hays of the Micro ranger where he said that the small slingshot are harder to aim.






I am guessing that one reason that the small slingshots are harder to aim is because you can't use the dimple or any other reference point on the slingshot for the height.

with the little slingshots or the narrow fork ones you aim above the fork in mid air, and it's hard to note the exact point in nothingness where you need to aim through again and again.

this is why i wanted a sight in the first place.

since i am going to make this HTS smaller then the original , i think i will first cut it out of just a couple of cardboard sheets and connect them together for bulkiness.

I need to find out if it will fit my hand in the first place.

I never built a slingshot in my life so even if this sight thing is a good idea it might fail in my hands.

I might ask Bill Hays to make a custom slingshot for tubes with a foldable (pocket knife like) sight in the fork, for my birthday in January 

Maybe until then I'll manage to make it myself.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Looks like it should work.

I've done a few sights and so forth... and just ended up going with the first and the simplest... the dimple, which can act as a buckhorn type sight if everything is matched up just right in your setup... which means 200 fps for steel ammo, you should be pretty close to dead on at 10 meters... Faster or slower, different types of ammo and so forth all affect it however.


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## calinb (Apr 4, 2015)

Sure--it can work. Have a look at the Metro Grade SSs made by Metropolicity with the aiming pins in the circular window. Scroll through this album:

http://slingshotforum.com/gallery/image/14675-the-marmoset-tx-target-executor/

On the other hand, I would just find an anchor point/bands/ammo combination to hit dead-on using the dimple for aiming at my longest anticipated range and, knowing the dimensions of a sparrow and the dimensions between its body features, I'd hold under for shorter range shots. For a short range sparrow headshot, you might be aiming at its feet! You have to work out the hold-under by shooting at targets at the expected ranges and, regardless of the sight used, you must learn to estimate range.


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## calinb (Apr 4, 2015)

Bill Hays said:


> Faster or slower, different types of ammo and so forth all affect it however.


The big "and so forth" that I've identified in my own shooting is my choice of an anchor point. It makes a huge difference, of course. Even how much I tilt my head, which affects the dominant eye to anchor point geometry, has a significant impact on where the shot lands when using the dimple/groove for aiming.


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## calinb (Apr 4, 2015)

gonene1, I read that you are making your own slingshot now (thanks for your post on the 10 meter thread and very cool!) but I've been thinking about how you could "kill two birds with one stone" (do you have that expression in Israel?--I think so) by modifying your Seal Sniper. Drill the holes in it and install the PredatorPro Titanium attachment system. The system is great for tubes or bands and the tubes will be located far enough away from the "U" in your forks to provide a good margin for shooting errors (no fork hits). When I run tubes, I do it because they are convenient and easy to change. The PPT attachment system makes tubes (and flat bands) easy on a Seal Sniper:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TJ0TiokUrVw#t=2725

The photos in this thread show where the holes are located:
http://slingshotforum.com/topic/41346-seal-sniper-from-bill-hayes/

I don't know how much it costs to have the Hays family ship them from Predator Pro Slingshots in Texas, but you could even make your own plates from sheet metal/plate with a drill, vice, and file and the "Option 2" configuration only requires simple hardware store hardware. (Options 1 and 3 require you to procure rivnuts, helicoils or other threaded insert.)

I have a hobby milling machine and could make them easily, but I plan to order a set from Predator Pro SS, because that's even easier for me. Hmmm--I'll just order two sets from PP. Which style do you prefer (1, 2, or 3)? I'll order an extra set for you, pop them in an envelope, and find someone returning to the Haifa Intel Design Center from Intel Oregon to drop them in the mail to you when they arrive home, though I doubt it would cost much for me to just mail them to you from here.

Now how does this kill two birds with one stone for you? Haha--your idea in this thread got me thinking about how easy it would be to make various styles of sights out of sheet metal or even something as simple as poster board or thin plastic, and mount and secure them on the front of your Seal Sniper under the PredatorPro Titanium thumb nut or screw, depending on which PPT option you use. You could experiment with different sight designs. I think I will try it too!

I agree that it will be cool to shoot 10m5/5 with your own homemade SS, but until it's finished... 

Maybe Bill should consider adding a sight as a PP Titanium Attachment System option, or even make Titanium attachment plates with sight extensions on them!


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## gonene1 (May 24, 2015)

hi Cal how are you?

I saw you comment a few days ago ...

I am sorry for taking so long to reply , things where not so great here.

let's just say that me and the kids got sick between fevers and wiping vomit of the floor\bed\sheets and pillows , i could barely even stand on my two feet.

but now i am well again and things got calm.

my wife was the only one who did not get sick so i hope she will stay that way in the nest days as well.

Making a drill hole and using the pro attachment system as a sight as well sounds like a great idea.

If i could make it like a hinge so it could also fold it could be even more great.

I am not sure that i would drill a hole into my seal sniper , but i might get another one and then i'll have something to experiment on.

the freight costs from pocket predator are not high about $15 and it's the same even if i order 1 item or many items in one shipment , it is about $5 more then what a shipment inside israel would cost.

In fact i already made some progress in my slingshot making , it is cut and i have the holes drilled , but i have a couple of problems with it , and i'll make a new topic for that.

In the mean time i plan to just cut prototype sights out of plastic and attach them using some weak glue to test.

when i find one that i like I'll try to thing about it's more permanent attachment to the frame .

actually even now i learned a lot from this frame that i made.

i know that i liked some features of it (HTS) then tne seal sniper, some features i liked better in the seal sniper.

In the HTS i liked the added support for the middle finger and the ring finger , in the seal sniper they floated in air (for me)

In the seal sniper i liked the thumb support hold which put less stress on my wrist , and the pinky hole as well.

so i traced the features that i liked in each model into one mixed model and I'll attach a pic for it as well.

after i finish the HTS mod I'll go make the mixed model as well.

I only hope it's OK that i post these and that I was not wrong in modifying Bills designs without permission.


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## calinb (Apr 4, 2015)

gonene1 said:


> In the mean time i plan to just cut prototype sights out of plastic and attach them using some weak glue to test.
> 
> when i find one that i like I'll try to thing about it's more permanent attachment to the frame .


I am so sorry to hear of your family's illness troubles, gonene1! My family and I have had the worst flu viruses that I've ever experienced in my life over the last few years too.

If you've not thought of it yet, silicone RTV (the stuff sold in squeeze and caulk gun tubes) works great as an attachment adhesive for these kinds of things. It holds plastic to wood rather well and you can rub it off with your thumb and fingers after you remove the plastic. I think you'll be surprised how long it will last (indefinitely, really) but you do need to let it air cure overnight. Please be aware that it can interfere with paint, so you might want to put a finish on your SS first, if you are planning a polyurethane or something similar. Silicone RTV residue is the bane of automotive paint and body shops!



gonene1 said:


> I like my HTSS best for target shooting with relatively light bands. The hand position is very natural and repeatable.
> 
> actually even now i learned a lot from this frame that i made.
> 
> ...


For heavier bands / heavier draw, I like the pinkie hole and thumb brace of the Seal Sniper. I can oppose a high draw force better with a thumb brace than the more limited area of the HTSS thumb groove. The only problem is I'm only 57 years old (later this week, actually) but I have suffered from arthritis in most of my joints for several years now. I think my younger and fitter days filled with many seasons of national level ski racing in the winters and big wall free climbs in the summers (Yosemite and the Sierra-Nevada range mostly) have caught up to me. These sports put very heavy loads on the the body's back and joints. The great French ski racer of the 1960s, Jean-Claude Killy, even quit skiing while only in his 50s for this reason (his back). I haven't skied in years myself. For SS shooting it means that the thumb brace just doesn't work for me for very long without causing problems. I need a hammer grip for longer shooting sessions with heavy(ish) band sets (or my new Saunders Wrist Rocket Pro, but that's another thread for me yet to start too). Pre-thread teaser: In less than 1 hour of shooting my Pro for the first time, I became just as accurate with it as I am with any of my other SSs--the balls just fly about 50+ fps faster! :woot:

FWIW, my opinion is that emulation is the highest form of flattery. You didn't copy Bill's designs. Rather, you combined elements of them into your own design. Furthermore, the continued issuance of patents by the economically fascist patent office that can only be "defended" by an army of corporate lawyers notwithstanding (a philosophical assertion of mine that I'd be happy to discuss with others in the Off-Topic venue of these forums), Joerg Sprave is right--there's not much under the sun that's truly new when it comes to primitive weapons!

P.S.: My philosophy about patents is not coming from a position of "sour grapes." Rather, you'd be more correct to accuse me of being a hypocrite, because I have been awarded a few U.S. patents myself (starting when I was only about 20 years old). However, I am less likely to pursue them than ever before in my life and I wish that they didn't exist. Sadly, they are part of the landscape and playing field we are all playing-on, at the moment.


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## TheDaddy187 (Jun 21, 2014)

my 2 pennies on something to use as a sight...

here in the uk we have security tags on items in some shops... they look like little white plastic strips that are sticky on one side maybe 5cmx1cm if you take it apart, inside is 3 thin strips of metal, 1 is slightly thicker than the other 2...

the thinner bits will bend back on its self and as long as you dont fold it, it will return straight every time...

when i was younger and in school i used them for tricks as they bend so closely together that the fold (that wasnt actually a fold) was hidden between my finger tips...

i would simply scratch the sighting marks onto the metal...

i believe also if careful you could pocket it and it would fold out of the way like its not even there and return to position as soon as its out of your pocket...

here is a pic of the tags i mean








also here is the link to a bad quality vid on youtube... the guy didnt bend anywhere near as far as it can... as i said you can bend it completely back on its self and will return to shape as long as you dont fold it


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## gonene1 (May 24, 2015)

Yah we have something very similar to that , but i don't have one on hand right now.

my 2 pennies on something to use as a sight...

here in the uk we have security tags on items in some shops... they look like little white plastic strips that are sticky on one side maybe 5cmx1cm if you take it apart, inside is 3 thin strips of metal, 1 is slightly thicker than the other 2...

the thinner bits will bend back on its self and as long as you dont fold it, it will return straight every time...

when i was younger and in school i used them for tricks as they bend so closely together that the fold (that wasnt actually a fold) was hidden between my finger tips...

i would simply scratch the sighting marks onto the metal...

i believe also if careful you could pocket it and it would fold out of the way like its not even there and return to position as soon as its out of your pocket...

here is a pic of the tags i mean







security-tags.jpg

also here is the link to a bad quality vid on youtube... the guy didnt bend anywhere near as far as it can... as i said you can bend it completely back on its self and will return to shape as long as you dont fold it





It used to be stuck on maybe a 200 things that i have in my home, perfume, deodorant, small electric appliances and so on..

but the clerks always took them off before i left the store.

I'll keep that in mind next time i see one , and ask the clerk to take it with me home.

I'll test this for sure.


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## calinb (Apr 4, 2015)

gonene1 said:


> I'll keep that in mind next time i see one , and ask the clerk to take it with me home.
> 
> I'll test this for sure.


Here in the U.S., they just leave them on the product. I throw them out but I'll peel them off and keep them from now on!

I'm very interested in trying a sight with references for two or three different ranges. I can hold over/under, like nearly everyone else, but I shoot better with a definitive sight picture. It's the other half of the mental magic that Bill Hays is referring to when he says, "aim for the center of the center of the center" of a small and definitive feature on the target. If I don't have a definitive reference on the sight to put on that "center of the center of the center," I can't shoot as well! A shooter's sight is half of their sight picture!

I'm planning to 3D print a thin nylon sight for my Milbro HTSS. The nylon is flexible but very strong and it should not damage the bands if they strike it. I think I can make it with a plug that simply press-fits into the band tie hole after the bands are installed. It should work on my poly Seal Sniper too, though it might require a slightly shorter press-fit attachment plug.

For me, identifying and using as many definitive references as possible improves my shooting--definitive anchors, hand grips, pouch holds, and head tilt (the line on the safety glasses trick that I previously mentioned). For example, an anchor point in the middle of my cheek is not as definitive as one in the corner of my mouth or one at that sensitive spot under my ear lobe in my jaw socket. I can shove my thumb knuckle in there and know it's just perfect! Holding my head perfectly vertical (when vertical is compatible with my chosen anchor point) is more definitive than tilting my head, though the safety glasses reference line trick helps and I can adjust that line as desired. BTW, I've found that given the geometry of the line between my dominant eye and my anchor point, the more I tilt my head, the more the point of impact moves down and to the right, assuming that I always use "single line aiming" and keep the bisecting centerline between the bands square with the SS. The change in POI with head tilt makes sense, because the vertical component of the length the line between my eye and anchor point decreases with head tilt while the displacement of my anchor point in the horizontal direction is to the left, relative to my eye position (the horizontal component of the distance between eye and anchor increases). These two changes in geometry send the ammo flying more downward and to the right with greater head tilt angle (again, assuming everything else is maintained constant, which can be difficult to do).

A set of definitive references is always a compromise, because some references might not be compatible with others.

I envy people who have learned to shoot "instinctively" but I'll probably never be one of them. Obviously I'm more of an analytic/engineering type of guy, but my techniques have enabled me to achieve a satisfying accuracy level with a SS in a relatively short time.


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## gonene1 (May 24, 2015)

calinb said:


> I envy people who have learned to shoot "instinctively" but I'll probably never be one of them. Obviously I'm more of an analytic/engineering type of guy, but my techniques have enabled me to achieve a satisfying accuracy level with a SS in a relatively short time.


You know i tried the slingshot today.

it is far from finished , but it has holes for tubes so i installed a set of 1842, grabbed some clay ball ammo( that i make 10 in one minute and costs next to nothing) and took it outside.

I started plinking... a flower high up on a tree, WOW bullseye, a tiny green developing lemon , again , on the spot, WOW!!!, a small leaf , took it out in one shot. a thin dried branch, took it out as well.

I said to myself: "this slingshot is f??king amazing and so accurate. I must test it with some real ammo on a real target!"

And what do you know?

I started to get flyers , actually almost every shot was a flyer.

I thought to myself: "This slingshot is no good for real ammo (3/8 steel) , lets go back to the clay balls and test them on the target."

and Nada ... no hits....

got closer to 5m and shot a soda can...

still noting, no hits only flyers.

started to be conscious about my pouch grip and tried to tweak it,

and nothing changed for the better , i only started getting fork hits.

no way!!!!...

took me awhile , but i started to get my accuracy back.

I am not sure what i have done, it was just something instinctive , I've had it , I've lost it , I've found it again.


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## calinb (Apr 4, 2015)

gonene1 said:


> took me awhile , but i started to get my accuracy back.
> 
> I am not sure what i have done, it was just something instinctive , I've had it , I've lost it , I've found it again.


Instinctive and "analytic" shooters alike have probably all been there!

BTW, Nico loves clay:

http://nicos-resorterablog.blogspot.com/


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## Teach (Jul 5, 2014)

slingshooterPT said:


> in my view there is no reason not to work, choose a anchor point that for example you can hit the target at 10m with the top cross airs , than you just need to realize what sight to use at longer distances!


SlingshooterPT is correct with the above post. But it's going to mean a change for you. I've used and have a couple PP designs and I found them frustrating to use becuase the frame was so big ie too wide a fork gap for me. When I'd go back and forth between different SS's I'd have to adjust but with the PP designs I'd have to adjust in the opposite way to the others. If I was to use the PP frames more often I'd settle into them just fine but then going back to other frames would produce the same difficulties for me.

I understand your plight with sighting and for myself it meant finding a frame that shot with my sighting and anchor point. Once I found that dimension that works for me by holding dead on with the top of the fork at 20 mtrs and slightly under the target at 10 meters it's an easy thing to quickly adjust for without needing a special aiming device such as a the one you proposed.

So you have two choices as I see it.

1.) You could change your anchor point to allow your impact to coincide with your aiming reference. Or......

2.) Find a different SS frame sized more appropriately to work with your anchor point.

For myself coming from an archery background of many years, option number 2 was the easiest course of action. I settled on a Tyton frame from Metro Grade Goods. You will need to experiment to find which frame works best for YOU.


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## Teach (Jul 5, 2014)

gonene1 said:


> calinb said:
> 
> 
> > I envy people who have learned to shoot "instinctively" but I'll probably never be one of them. Obviously I'm more of an analytic/engineering type of guy, but my techniques have enabled me to achieve a satisfying accuracy level with a SS in a relatively short time.
> ...


If your clay ammo is a different diameter than the "real ammo" as you put it, then I'd suggest it's not your ammo or your SS that is the problem. It's your release is what I'm thinking. I often experience problems when going from BB's to even 3/8 ammo as the grip that I take with BB's is not possible to take with larger ammo because the ball just sits between your thumb and forefinger differently and the release has to be different as well. I find larger ammo harder to shoot now than BB's yet when I was shooting mostly 3/8 steel all the time I found it hard to adapt to the BB's.

I'd say for now, stick to what really works for you the best and really get it down pat. Once your accuracy is then solid you could try incorporating different ammo sizes ..... one size at a time so that you can go back and forth between those two. Once you get that down pat, then try adding a third size and so on. Always try changing just one thing at a time when you are searching for what works. If you make changes to more than one thing it makes it tough to know which of those things it was that made the difference or if it was the combination that did it.

Anyhoo, good luck in your search for the right combo.


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