# The path of the ammo when shooting OTT



## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

I am sure that everyone on the forum recognizes an Over The Top, or OTT, band arrangement. However, some folks labor under the mistaken impression that when shooting an OTT arrangement, the ammo flies over the fork tips. So, I used my testbed slingshot to make a video demonstrating the path of the ammo when shooting an OTT arrangement.

I had hoped to get some slow motion video of the action, but like a dolt, I failed to turn on the video recorder at the beginning. So every time thereafter when I thought I was turning it off, I was actually turning it on. And when I thought I was turning it on, I was actually turning it off!!! What a bonehead!!!

Luckily, the regular video worked just fine, and the results should be clear. Just for fun, I taped a flour filled latex finger right at the edge of a flat top shooter, and the resulting finger strike was most satisfying.









The bottom line is: OTT refers to the arrangement of the bands, NOT to the path of the ammo. Unless you flip your fork or use the speed bump effect, even with an OTT band arrangement, your ammo passes between your fork tips.

Cheers ...... Charles

P.S. Here is the video link, which I originally forgot to include:

http://slingshotforum.com/videos/view-40-shooting-ott-over-the-top/


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## NaturalFork (Jan 21, 2010)

It all depends on how you hold the frame as well. If the frame is perpendicular to the bands and the fork is not flipped .. the ammo will go through the forks (barely). It also depends on fork orientation. Non parallel forks the ammo paths will almost always move through the forks. However if the tips are parallel again .. you would have to hold the frame perpendicular with no flip.


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## Aussie Allan In Thailand (Jan 28, 2013)

Hi Charles,

I have found it depends upon the slingshot, and how it is held.

I always shoot "gangster" style, and some OTT banded slingshots are perfect held as usual at 90 degrees as for TTF: yet some have to pointed forward, or they "throw" the ammo/shot, to the right significantly.

How it actually passes through the forks is immaterial to me: it is where it ends up, P.O.I. (point of impact), in respect of my P.O.A. (point of aim) that matters most to me at least.

Cheers Aussie Allan


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## halbart (Jan 23, 2013)

Another myth busted. H.


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## Can-Opener (May 11, 2013)

Keep up the experiments! I have learned a lot from you already. Thank you for your efforts and sharing!


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## BCLuxor (Aug 24, 2010)

Great use of the Ol' machine Charles! I whipped these up this afternoon to add to your findings!











Bearing in mind I am trying to actively avoid shooting my camera the balls pass through the for, if I were to aim as if to shoot the camera then they would travel directly through the fork.


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## twparish (Apr 13, 2013)

Now I am really confused, have only been shooting for two months, shooting thumb braced OTT, holding the frame perpendicular, turning the pouch 90 degrees and have had two thumb hits -- I thought the ammo (marbles) was going over the top of the forks, now I know why fork (thumb) hits are possible when shooting, supposedly, OTT. The ammo is not going over the top !!!
How do you avoid thumb hits ........ maybe an amateur like me should only shoot "hammer grip" which I can do, only not as accurate.
Someone please point me to the best video/s on how to avoid thumb hits.
Thanks ..... "The Old Man"


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## Rapier (May 28, 2011)

@ twparish. Take some vid of yourself shooting from side on then review. might help show you your inconsistencies. You might be turning the catty from square of the target sometimes or...


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## BCLuxor (Aug 24, 2010)

I think for the majority the shot does pretty much "bump" just above the forks .... EDIT my signature is true TTF

LOL and that second video I am not Michael Jackson I read the post while in my workshop and decided to bust out the camera mid sanding!


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

twparish said:


> Now I am really confused, have only been shooting for two months, shooting thumb braced OTT, holding the frame perpendicular, turning the pouch 90 degrees and have had two thumb hits -- I thought the ammo (marbles) was going over the top of the forks, now I know why fork (thumb) hits are possible when shooting, supposedly, OTT. The ammo is not going over the top !!!
> How do you avoid thumb hits ........ maybe an amateur like me should only shoot "hammer grip" which I can do, only not as accurate.
> Someone please point me to the best video/s on how to avoid thumb hits.
> Thanks ..... "The Old Man"


Here you go ... watch them both.

http://slingshotforum.com/videos/view-32-how-to-avoid-fork-and-hand-hits-part-1/

http://slingshotforum.com/videos/view-31-how-to-avoid-fork-and-hand-hits-part-2/

Cheers ..... Charles


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

For the moment, let us disregard the effect of gravity. Let us assume you are using flat bands with an OTT arrangement. Draw a line from the top of one fork tip to the other. Your bands, particularly when stretched, are very thin, and for all practical purposes, the midpoint of the thickness of the bands will be right at that line connecting the fork tips. If your ammo is centered on the midpoint of the thickness of the bands, as it should be when properly positioned in the pouch, then the vector of the force from the bands will send the center of the ammo right across that line connecting the fork tips. It does not matter one little bit how the forks are held ... fork tips parallel to the ground, perpendicular to the ground, or canted at an angle somewhere in between. It does not matter one little bit whether the forks are held straight up and down or pointed forward. The force vector remains exactly the same. Since the center of the ammo crosses that line, half of the ammo will be below the line.

What effect does gravity have? The bands I was using with a 36 inch draw propel 3/8 inch steel at about 200 fps. Since the ammo starts with 0 velocity and gets up to 200 fps at the fork tips, assuming smooth acceleration, its average velocity over that initial 36 inches will be 100 fps. So it takes .03 seconds for the ammo to travel that initial 36 inches = 3 feet. In .03 seconds, the ammo will drop about 11/64 = .172 of an inch (I will spare you the math). If my fork tips are parallel to the ground, the center of the ammo will pass .172 of an inch below the line from one fork tip to the other. If my fork tips are canted at 45 degrees, the center of the ammo will pass about .086 of an inch beneath the line from one fork tip to the other. If my fork tips are perpendicular to the ground, the center of the ammo will pass right through the line from one fork tip to the other.

Unless you are flipping your fork or using the speed bump effect, no matter what the orientation of your fork, at least half the ammo will pass beneath the line connecting your fork tips. By "beneath" here I mean on the side of the line toward the throat of your slingshot.

Elementary physics and experimental observation agree ... the ammo does not magically fly over the fork tips.

Cheers ...... Charles


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## Gardengroove (Feb 13, 2012)

It should be added, that this only applies when the pouch isn't tweaked and bended, right?


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Gardengroove said:


> It should be added, that this only applies when the pouch isn't tweaked and bended, right?


I will do experiments with twisting and the speed bump effect later.

Cheers ...... Charles


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## Gardengroove (Feb 13, 2012)

Sorry Charles, I kinda missed this in your video as I recognize you addressed the "speed bump effect" - A term I wasn't aware that it's the same as "Twisting and bending"


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Gardengroove said:


> Sorry Charles, I kinda missed this in your video as I recognize you addressed the "speed bump effect" - A term I wasn't aware that it's the same as "Twisting and bending"


No problem ... "twisting and bending" are a species of "speed bump effect", but there is more to the speed bump effect than "twisting and bending".

Cheers ..... Charles


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## twparish (Apr 13, 2013)

Charles said:


> twparish said:
> 
> 
> > Now I am really confused, have only been shooting for two months, shooting thumb braced OTT, holding the frame perpendicular, turning the pouch 90 degrees and have had two thumb hits -- I thought the ammo (marbles) was going over the top of the forks, now I know why fork (thumb) hits are possible when shooting, supposedly, OTT. The ammo is not going over the top !!!
> ...


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## ZorroSlinger (Dec 12, 2012)

This was specifically in videos tutorials section of forum. For other's who have not seen it, thought it might be convenient to add to this topic, the actual videos here, since it is very related. Good presentation by Charles and kind of like a learning workshop!











Charles points out the possible negatives of 'speed bump effect', however, depending on shooting style/technique, the Pouch Turn & Bending can be used to advantage ... positive benefits. I know you already knows that, but just commenting for readers seeing this topic 

P.S. Charles, hope you can get the slow motion working. Would be cool & most informative to see various slo-mo examples! (using your testing rig setup)


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

I do not speed bump but I do tweak I shoot exclusivily over the top and that is how the ammo travels for me and neither do I flip as I see no use for flipping, If you consider driving over a speed bump you will continue the same resume of travel but tweaking the pouch changes that all the way to the target. My ammo all ways travels over the top as is how the tubes or flat bands are rigged over the top. Over The Top.


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## trobbie66 (May 13, 2012)

Charles you seem to be having a lot of fun with your new rig. Thanks for shearing your vids and info! Looking forward to seeing more


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

dgui said:


> I do not speed bump but I do tweak I shoot exclusivily over the top and that is how the ammo travels for me and neither do I flip as I see no use for flipping, If you consider driving over a speed bump you will continue the same resume of travel but tweaking the pouch changes that all the way to the target. My ammo all ways travels over the top as is how the tubes or flat bands are rigged over the top. Over The Top.


No doubt you have learned to defy the laws of physics ....

Cheers ....... Charles


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## ZorroSlinger (Dec 12, 2012)

Just reminder to all, Charles testing setup did not have the pouch turned or bent.

Personally, I don't use the term of 'speed bump' when one bends (aka tweak) the pouch. Not sure if I notice speed increase effect from it. I use pouch twisting (aka turning) and the added bending to simply assist the ball to clear top of forks, especially for me when learning PFS style with almost non-existent forks. I was getting occasional top-of-PFS hits, when I was appropriately twisting pouch. However, when I added the pouch tweak(bend), top-of-PFS hits seem to go away. Of course months later now, my PFS skills getting better due to practice. I do apply active draw/pull and that is where I significantly notice speed increase. I think some of this has to do with mind & muscle co-ordination sensory thing that comes with continued practice, and perhaps a test rig cannot replicate that ... that's why it's called *Instinctive / Intuitive*


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

ZorroSlinger said:


> Just reminder to all, Charles testing setup did not have the pouch turned or bent.
> 
> Personally, I don't use the term of 'speed bump' when one bends (aka tweak) the pouch. Not sure if I notice speed increase effect from it. I use pouch twisting (aka turning) and the added bending to simply assist the ball to clear top of forks, especially for me when learning PFS style with almost non-existent forks. I was getting occasional top-of-PFS hits, when I was appropriately twisting pouch. However, when I added the pouch tweak(bend), top-of-PFS hits seem to go away. Of course months later now, my PFS skills getting better due to practice. I do apply active draw/pull and that is where I significantly notice speed increase. I think some of this has to do with mind & muscle co-ordination sensory thing that comes with continued practice, and perhaps a test rig cannot replicate that ... that's why it's called *Instinctive / Intuitive*


You are at the point of not thinking of the time consuming individual steps to shooting and so a natural automatic calculated rhythm one motion shot occurs. But I think I like your explanation better.


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## Arturito (Jan 10, 2013)

dgui said:


> ZorroSlinger said:
> 
> 
> > Just reminder to all, Charles testing setup did not have the pouch turned or bent.
> ...


before the shoot when I am pulling the bands back to full draw if I "feel I will hit" I will hit, but if I "feel a doubt" I will probably miss ... that's what happen to me and that's why I have being working to let me feel "that feeling" (hearing your body) more than "thinking or adjusting on technical issues" ...

Cheers

Arturo


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## tradspirit (Jul 23, 2012)

What Arturito describes is exactly what a traditional bow shooter senses when he has made a good shot at the instant of release, and before the target impact is confirmed. Shooting in the zone occurs when all facets of the shot are in place and little thought is given to the process.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

I find it very strange that somehow this thread seems to have gone badly off track. I simply did an experiment with a mechanical, repeatable setup that showed that the path of the ammo with an OTT band arrangement intersects the line between the fork tips. That experiment simply confirms what can be derived from elementary physics. I said nothing whatever about intuitive vs non-intuitive shooting. The physics is the same, whether you are an intuitive shooter or not.

Cheers ...... Charles


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## twparish (Apr 13, 2013)

Charles,

I have learned a lot from your posts and look forward to reading many more.

While the discussion has strayed from the original, it has produced some interesting and useful information for us newbies.

The twisting and slightly bending (tweaking) of the pouch explains how the ammo can be made to go over the top, very essential when shooting pf shooters. The posts in this thread have helped me understand this.

In conclusion, you are very much appreciated and I am looking forward to learning more from your future posts.


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## TimR (May 22, 2011)

Does the strength of the band make a difference?

It seems to me possible that the heavier the band, the more chance the slingshot is flipped just by the force of holding it, and that might ??? cause the projectile to go over the top? Whereas a light band would shoot more through the forks?

Light and heavy of course are very much individual to the shooter. I use mostly very light bands because I'm still rebuilding a rotator cuff. As I make stronger bands they seem heavy to me but would be very light to most of you.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

I have always said ... UNLESS you flip or use the speed bump effect, the center of the ammo will intersect the line between the fork tips. In my mechanical set up, I have eliminated both the flip and the speed bump effect. You are right that if you flip in just the right way, you may indeed move the forks downward out of the path of the ammo. And if you are holding your wrist so that there is muscle strain holding the forks, the stronger the bands, the more your muscles will tend to pull the fork forward and down (flip) at the release of the tension (I talked about this in my first video on fork hits). It does not always work, as many who have tried bareback shooting can attest!

Cheers .... Charles


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