# Experimenting with tubes and flat bands



## smitty

Everyone knows I still like to shoot with small diameter, (3/16" or less) tubes, even though I have been talked to as if I were somewhat dim-witted by several folks for shooting with them. I happen to like them, even though they aren't too popular on the forum. I just posted a video on U-Tube (smittyslingshots channel) of me using 20-40 tubes to shoot semi-butterfly style if you are interested, using my modified Dankung for the purpose. Well, I thought it would be nice to incorporate the ability to shoot with tubes as well as flat bands into one wooden slingshot. I like the over the top slingshots and wanted to make one where I could shoot tubes O.T.T. just like flats. This way, I could experiment with all kinds of rubber to enjoy the sport with a wooden slingshot and not have to keep making steel slingshots which are pretty hard for me to make. Plus the wood has a feel and beauty that steel can't match, not to mention it is much lighter in weight. I wanted to be able to switch to flats using the same frame that I use to shoot with tubes. I browsed around and saw lots of attachment styles and I have come up with a slight modification to any wooden flat band slingshot that is easy for anyone to do and that works very well. I have been shooting with it now for about a month and would like to share it with others who might be like minded.








All I did was to drill a 1/4" hole right in the groove all the way through and chamfer around the hole on both sides. Great care was taken to insure a smooth transition so the rubber wouldn't be damaged while shooting. The tubes are also protected from abrasion by a piece of tubing through the hole surrounding the tubes. Just pull them up and over to shoot just like flats. I have tried leather for the same purpose in the past, but it lessens the rubbers ability to fly over the forks and slightly decreases the draw length. I haven't found any drawbacks yet, except I didn't incorporate the slot for quick change like the Chinese style metal slingshots for strength purposes. The tubes can be changed out about as fast as a set of flats, so that seems pretty good to me.


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## Dayhiker

Smitty, you know I like that kind of setup, too. I have been messing around with butterfly shooting and my 10 feet of tubing is languishing. Thanks for reminding me.









P.S. Those are nice little shooters there.


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## ZDP-189

I like the attachment.


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## hawk2009

Looks good to me


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## whipcrackdeadbunny

hawk2009 said:


> Looks good to me


me too.


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## dankung_shooter

Hey Smitty, if anyone has talked down to you about using the skinny tubes it just shows how utterly clueless some of the members of this forum really are. This is why I don't actively participate in forums like this. I just had to comment after I read what you said.


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## Paul

Smitty,

Thanks for the great idea. I've wanted to try those small tubes, but couldn't figure out how to attach them.

Paul


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## shot in the foot

Thats the way i sometimes put them on, works ok with 4 strands, not so good with 8, jeff


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## smitty

Glad I could share an idea with some of you. I always enjoy it when I get an idea from here too. I just like shooting 17-45 and 20-40 tubes! They sure put a smile on my face when they send that ammo to "SMACK" the target. I think I am going to make my wife a wire frame slingshot like Flatband just made and rig it with tubes too.


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## Flatband

Pretty cool attachment Smitty. I've also recently been fooling around with the full Albatross/Butterfly style and was thinking of trying the smaller tubes on it. Those thin diameter tubes shoot well,with good stretch and from what I read,last long too. Where do you buy your small diameter stuff Smitty? Flatband


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## Dayhiker

Flatband said:


> Pretty cool attachment Smitty. I've also recently been fooling around with the full Albatross/Butterfly style and was thinking of trying the smaller tubes on it. Those thin diameter tubes shoot well,with good stretch and from what I read,last long too. Where do you buy your small diameter stuff Smitty? Flatband


FB: get them right here, third one down (3/16) These are great!
http://www.mcmaster.com/#latex-tubing/=8f4o57


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## smitty

I get it from McMasters if I want it in a hurry and from Dankung if I can wait. I really haven't shopped around much, except for buying some from Reef Scuba out of California. I wonder where all the stores get theirs from?`


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## pelleteer

I like skinny tubing, too. Here's some on a couple catties I made from micarta back in May: Micarta with Skinny Tubes


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## smitty

After seeing some slingshots like yours Pelleteer, I wonder why the attachment isn't used more often? I think I saw a version of it first on Gekos' video, but not for sure. I think he was putting tubes on a natural fork. I've seen it a lot on Chinese wooden natural style slingshots too. Seems like a cheap way to save on wood for experimenting with different kinds of rubber and easy to change too.
I worked a while today on two 3/8" aluminum tipped slingshots. They ought to be fairly versatile too, by just wrapping flats or tubes straight to the rod like the new one Flatband just made????
Really, Flatband showed me a long time ago that you can use a regular flat band designed slingshot to rig up tubes or flats, but sometimes I worry about a tube slipping out, even though one never has. I worry most about four strand tubes tied on like flats. I have used an extra groove on each side, but it doesn't seem necessary???? Just feels more secure to run them through a hole, but then you have to watch out for the edge of the hole wearing on the tube.


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## Performance Catapults

Tis a great idea Smitty. When I first released the EPS concept, someone asked me in a PM if I could incorporate a design they came up with, to be able to use tubes. While their design would have worked, I felt it was unsafe because of metal that was sticking out from the top of the fork. I must say that drilling a hole through the fork is a method I have considered, and is something I may do, for a future run of EPS frames.


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## Dayhiker

And don't forget you can use naturals too, I posted about this one a while back. It was in June and I'm still shooting the same tubes. (this is one of my plinkers I take on walks)


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## USASlingshot

we do that with our natural forks. the tubes are powerful and alot more compact than bands


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## harpersgrace

_Great looking rig there Smitty, very nice looking frame...._


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## smitty

Jim, your EPS frames would be ideal because of the metal core, which I am sure you know, to be used with a hole in the groove. The only attachment style besides the hole was to attach a tab of leather to the frame like flats and tie to it. The leather tab shoots very well and is worth considering, but I feel more secure from slaps in the face with a drilled hole. The rubber could possibly pull out of the leather.


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## ZDP-189

smitty said:


> After seeing some slingshots like yours Pelleteer, I wonder why the attachment isn't used more often? I think I saw a version of it first on Gekos' video, but not for sure. I think he was putting tubes on a natural fork. I've seen it a lot on Chinese wooden natural style slingshots too. Seems like a cheap way to save on wood for experimenting with different kinds of rubber and easy to change too.
> I worked a while today on two 3/8" aluminum tipped slingshots. They ought to be fairly versatile too, by just wrapping flats or tubes straight to the rod like the new one Flatband just made????
> Really, Flatband showed me a long time ago that you can use a regular flat band designed slingshot to rig up tubes or flats, but sometimes I worry about a tube slipping out, even though one never has. I worry most about four strand tubes tied on like flats. I have used an extra groove on each side, but it doesn't seem necessary???? Just feels more secure to run them through a hole, but then you have to watch out for the edge of the hole wearing on the tube.


That's a lovely stack of slingshots you have there.


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## smitty

Yeah ZDP, I'm not even sure if I will Finish it out. I just lost interest in it to work on something else. I was going to carve it out, but maybe later when the mood hits me again. Here is one I actually finished:


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## ZDP-189

The biggest risk to the completion of a project is the start of another. Sometimes, I just write up the new idea into an organiser note file and then once I have the existing stuff done, I go look through the file to see what new idea holds the most merit. In the meantime, a lot of ideas get built by other people, which saves me the time.


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## smitty

Hey that is a good idea. I should put them down on paper... then I would see that mine are just "butt Ugly" before I have to be told. Ha!


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## dgui

What did you find comparing chinease tubes to flatbands? Have you recorded any fps speeds with chinease tubes?


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## smitty

Sorry dgui I don't have a chrony, but my thoughts on the subject are that chinese style tubes are right up there with average flats, but radical flats beat 'em out. 17-45 four strands are plenty to hunt with and they shoot 50 caliber lead with authority. 20-40 eight strand are a bit better and 20-40 in four strands is just fine for easy pulling target practice. "Four strand" Theraband gold is just about the most a guy could want in power but they are hard to pull.


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## Dayhiker

I found that once I got the right tubes, they were just as much fun to shoot as were flats.
I have a tendency to fall into the opinion that, if you like fiddling around a lot with cutting and re-installing and buying, and you absolutely _must _have the optimal amount of speed/power on your slingshot -- then bands are for you. 
On another hand, If you just want to have fun shooting your slingshot and don't want (or are too lazy) to play around with the bands and you don't have a lot of $ to spend on rubber, nor do you really care if you are shooting a little slower than you could be -- then tubes are for you, . 
I fall somewhere in between. I like the tubes, but the flats are easier on my hands, so I use them as much as I do the tubes. If it can penetrate a steel can at ten yards with 3/8 steel balls then I figure a band/tube set is sufficient for hunting if I use at least 7/16 steel. I don't care about no chronies -- but I'm glad some do, so I can eliminate experimenting myself. Not because I'm lazy (although I am), but because I'd rather spend maximum time making and shooting.
--- my 2 cents.


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## NaturalFork

I have been shooting the chinese tubes lately. They are very fast.


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## smitty

Yes, they are much faster I believe than they are being given credit for. I think most of the tests were done in the past with Theratube and the replacement tubes sold for the off the shelf slingshot brands. I doubt the Chinese tubes have really been explored. One of these days someone with a lot of clout will announce a discovery that small diameter tubes are very good for slingshots. I haven't done any kind of exhaustive study, but the only rubber that announces with authority to me that it is way faster than small diameter tubes is Theraband gold. In the right cut size it is awesome, but it is much harder to pull it and I hate the loudness of it when I shoot with it. I don't have any shares in any Chinese rubber plants and I don't sell Chinese rubber tubes yet, so there is no reason for me to push Chinese style tubes, except I feel they are worth trying out by every shooter. Tube shooters should not be made to feel like they are just unenlightened. We like them because they give us what we are looking for, so what is wrong with that. I like flats too, but for different uses, different frames.


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## redcard

Dayhiker said:


> Pretty cool attachment Smitty. I've also recently been fooling around with the full Albatross/Butterfly style and was thinking of trying the smaller tubes on it. Those thin diameter tubes shoot well,with good stretch and from what I read,last long too. Where do you buy your small diameter stuff Smitty? Flatband


FB: get them right here, third one down (3/16) These are great!
http://www.mcmaster....-tubing/=8f4o57
[/quote]
DH, I tried these on a bandset and like them. are they comparable to chinese 1745 or 2040? I made mine 4 strand (12" folded in half per side).


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## hawk2009

Yes I have to agree chinese tubes for me, I would certainly take anyone on in the forum for accuracy and distance shooting against any fatband they have, these chinese tubes may not be recorded as the fastest thats only because they have not been experimented with to the full it depends on the setup, correct draw length is a necessity one centimeter in length has a significant effect to long or to short and their will be a shortfall in what you are trying to acheive My two cents.


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## Dayhiker

Redcard,
I really don't know. I haven't experimented with enough of the different ones yet, but I can tell you there is quite a difference between these and the 1745's. I have 1745's one of Hawks slingshots and they are thinner, but have much more snap. I have much experimenting with chinese tubes ahead of me.


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## redcard

Dayhiker said:


> Redcard,
> I really don't know. I haven't experimented with enough of the different ones yet, but I can tell you there is quite a difference between these and the 1745's. I have 1745's one of Hawks slingshots and they are thinner, but have much more snap. I have much experimenting with chinese tubes ahead of me.


DH ,

So do you prefer the chinese tubes over the ones from Mcmaster-Carr? how long do you make them?


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## Dayhiker

redcard said:


> Redcard,
> I really don't know. I haven't experimented with enough of the different ones yet, but I can tell you there is quite a difference between these and the 1745's. I have 1745's one of Hawks slingshots and they are thinner, but have much more snap. I have much experimenting with chinese tubes ahead of me.


DH ,

So do you prefer the chinese tubes over the ones from Mcmaster-Carr? how long do you make them?
[/quote]

Well, not really. It is just that I haven't finished trying out enough stuff yet. But at this stage, I think I like the 1745s a little better. However the only I have shot them is in the configuration Hawk has them set up on his Trophy slingshot. He cuts them a little too short for my liking. If I lengthened them and set them up on my Jungle Hunter, then I could make a fairer comparison. I have also used other chinese tubes that came with slingshots I've bought but I never knew the size on them -- all of them were cut too short for me to make a good judgement. I will have to buy a bunch of 10-meter lengths of 1745 and 2030 and set them up the same way to make a real comparison between them. Right now, though, I still have a lot of other rubber to use up first. Smitty is the guy to ask about this, he has experimented extensively withe chinese tubes.


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## hawk2009

Dayhiker said:


> Redcard,I really don't know. I haven't experimented with enough of the different ones yet, but I can tell you there is quite a difference between these and the 1745's. I have 1745's one of Hawks slingshots and they are thinner, but have much more snap. I have much experimenting with chinese tubes ahead of me.


DH ,So do you prefer the chinese tubes over the ones from Mcmaster-Carr? how long do you make them?[/quote]Well, not really. It is just that I haven't finished trying out enough stuff yet. But at this stage, I think I like the 1745s a little better. However the only I have shot them is in the configuration Hawk has them set up on his Trophy slingshot. He cuts them a little too short for my liking. If I lengthened them and set them up on my Jungle Hunter, then I could make a fairer comparison. I have also used other chinese tubes that came with slingshots I've bought but I never knew the size on them -- all of them were cut too short for me to make a good judgement. I will have to buy a bunch of 10-meter lengths of 1745 and 2030 and set them up the same way to make a real comparison between them. Right now, though, I still have a lot of other rubber to use up first. Smitty is the guy to ask about this, he has experimented extensively withe chinese tubes.
[/quote]
You will have to cut to your draw length they stretch six times their length,to long and you will not get the full potential out of them to short and it does not feel quite right.I am only 5.7 tall so 12cm is not quite long enough so I cut mine at 13.5cm.The ones I sell now are 15cm long, long enough for the majority of users.So if they know how they are able to cut them down a little.I also find that after a few shots they give a little they seem to have a stopping point when you first pull them but draw past that stopping point and they are fine you just have to play around with them a little.


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## redcard

hawk2009 said:


> Redcard,I really don't know. I haven't experimented with enough of the different ones yet, but I can tell you there is quite a difference between these and the 1745's. I have 1745's one of Hawks slingshots and they are thinner, but have much more snap. I have much experimenting with chinese tubes ahead of me.


DH ,So do you prefer the chinese tubes over the ones from Mcmaster-Carr? how long do you make them?[/quote]Well, not really. It is just that I haven't finished trying out enough stuff yet. But at this stage, I think I like the 1745s a little better. However the only I have shot them is in the configuration Hawk has them set up on his Trophy slingshot. He cuts them a little too short for my liking. If I lengthened them and set them up on my Jungle Hunter, then I could make a fairer comparison. I have also used other chinese tubes that came with slingshots I've bought but I never knew the size on them -- all of them were cut too short for me to make a good judgement. I will have to buy a bunch of 10-meter lengths of 1745 and 2030 and set them up the same way to make a real comparison between them. Right now, though, I still have a lot of other rubber to use up first. Smitty is the guy to ask about this, he has experimented extensively withe chinese tubes.
[/quote]
You will have to cut to your draw length they stretch six times their length,to long and you will not get the full potential out of them to short and it does not feel quite right.I am only 5.7 tall so 12cm is not quite long enough so I cut mine at 13.5cm.The ones I sell now are 15cm long, long enough for the majority of users.So if they know how they are able to cut them down a little.I also find that after a few shots they give a little they seem to have a stopping point when you first pull them but draw past that stopping point and they are fine you just have to play around with them a little.
[/quote]

Hawk, 
Is that 15cm per side or per strand?


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## hawk2009

15cm per strand in total so from the nearside fork to the pouch is about 13cm giving you a draw length of 78cm almost 31 inches.


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## jmplsnt

Some nice cats there Smitty and DH. I like all the experiments and different methods of attachment I see on here. All these catapults and bandsets look pretty well-made and if they work near as good as you all say they do then there must be something going on. I'm not a little tube-shooter but I am enjoying this thread.


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## Nico

smitty said:


> Everyone knows I still like to shoot with small diameter, (3/16" or less) tubes, even though I have been talked to as if I were somewhat dim-witted by several folks for shooting with them. I happen to like them, even though they aren't too popular on the forum. I just posted a video on U-Tube (smittyslingshots channel) of me using 20-40 tubes to shoot semi-butterfly style if you are interested, using my modified Dankung for the purpose. Well, I thought it would be nice to incorporate the ability to shoot with tubes as well as flat bands into one wooden slingshot. I like the over the top slingshots and wanted to make one where I could shoot tubes O.T.T. just like flats. This way, I could experiment with all kinds of rubber to enjoy the sport with a wooden slingshot and not have to keep making steel slingshots which are pretty hard for me to make. Plus the wood has a feel and beauty that steel can't match, not to mention it is much lighter in weight. I wanted to be able to switch to flats using the same frame that I use to shoot with tubes. I browsed around and saw lots of attachment styles and I have come up with a slight modification to any wooden flat band slingshot that is easy for anyone to do and that works very well. I have been shooting with it now for about a month and would like to share it with others who might be like minded.
> View attachment 2303
> 
> 
> All I did was to drill a 1/4" hole right in the groove all the way through and chamfer around the hole on both sides. Great care was taken to insure a smooth transition so the rubber wouldn't be damaged while shooting. The tubes are also protected from abrasion by a piece of tubing through the hole surrounding the tubes. Just pull them up and over to shoot just like flats. I have tried leather for the same purpose in the past, but it lessens the rubbers ability to fly over the forks and slightly decreases the draw length. I haven't found any drawbacks yet, except I didn't incorporate the slot for quick change like the Chinese style metal slingshots for strength purposes. The tubes can be changed out about as fast as a set of flats, so that seems pretty good to me.


Smitty,

I dont see why anyone would think in such a way, your a very smart man and I know very practical minded in your slingshot creations.
I know that sometimes people follow trends and that sometimes opinions or attitudes are based on collective whole of the trend people follow such as flatbands vs tubes.

Those thin tubes pack a very good punch and, in my distant past had my share of experiences back in the 1980s with the old thin marksman tubes that I used on a homemade wire frame.

The set up of multiple thin tubes gives you a very fast shooting slingshot with more than enough power for your special hunting needs.

I say your very right to use these thin tubes as part of your collective slingshot arsenal, good work Smitty


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## Daomeng

tubes are awesome!


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## frogman

Tubular bands rock!


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## Tex-Shooter

Hey frogman, do you have a Chrony? -- Tex-Shooter


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## hawk2009

Hrawk said:


> Fantastic set of vids man!I am surprised about MDF though. I never thought it would be strong enough for a slingshot.I have a ton of it lying around from making speaker and sub boxes. Not to mention the free off cuts bin where I buy my sheets from. Offcuts that wouldn't be good for much except . . . SLINGSHOTS!Hmmmm....


A chrony only measures speed their is more to a slingshot than speed what about accuracy and size.From my experience and having watched alot of video's posted on you tube tubes prevail over flatbands tenfold for accuracy, as an example watch gibs most recent videos I think they are on the shooter post he posted his first video using theraband gold and did not do very well hitting the target, on his second video he used the much shorter chinese tubes and was alot more succesful.I have just redesigned the trophy slingshots the picture is of the T1 the smallest of the three it is a little smaller than my steel Bi-thor dankung.When I tested it I was so impressed it is incredibly accurate more so than the dankung and is so comfortable to hold I am going to make and keep one for myself which I dont usually do, im not trying to sell it to anyone on here just making a point that their is more to slingshots than speed.


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## Tex-Shooter

I agree and I have shot both and I shoot flats much better, but I am sure that there are those that shoot tubes better. In fact i was shooting small double tubes before I saw anybody else shooting them. They are better than larger single tubes, but still slow in cold weather. The loop style does help with the recoil some. -- Tex-shooter


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## Melchior

I'm 100% convinced that the inherent accuracy of tubular rubber is not a tad better than that of flatbands. However, shorter bands that "snap" forward with a relatively low draw length make shooting a bit easier because you have to care less about the release of the pellet and have less time to move the slingshot during the shot. Many chinese shooters use this style with great success. However, the short bands come at the expense of lower band life (you pull the bands to the max) and a lot higher draw weight that can also make yourself inaccurate. So adjust the bands to the length and draw weight you are comfortable with.

@Hawk: The chinese shooters use tubular bands, and like to show their skills on Youtube. But that does not mean their slinghots are more accurate. And there are a lot of equally impressive vidoes of shooters using flatbands. Also, consider that there are much more Chinese slingshooters than you'll find in the whole Western world combined. Slingshots are the only type of shooting device a Chinese citizen can legally own, and shoot outside a shooting club. I guess there are 4 serious chinese slingshooters for every serious Western slingshooter.


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## JoergS

Accuracy is all in the shooter.

I have tested this with my slingshot crossbows. If you put them in a rest, as I did, they shoot equally precise with both tubes and flats. However, at the same draw weight, the flats have a much more flat trajectory - they simply shoot faster.

Even when I deliberately cut one band shorter than the other side, the accuracy was good. The shots of course were a bit shifted towards the shorter side, but this was very consistent. A good shooter would instinctively compensate.


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## dgui

I wonder what would be revealed if someone were set up to do a bench test with a vice and a release all things being equal for band and tube test. I keep trying to work with both tubes and flats and I would like to hit a sweet spot with both. I have this desire to shoot flat and not just hit the target but go through it.


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## Tex-Shooter

Bench test have been done (tube and flats), but not with small tubes that I know of. I have no doubt that tube and flats shoot equally accurately and the skill of the shooter is the key. This skill is not only in shooting, but also in the setting up of the slingshot and in the way the slingshot the tubes or flats. There are shooters in the USA that have not been seen in the public and don’t want to be. I know one personally that may be the best that I have ever seen, but don’t want his name mentioned. If you think that you are good go to a tournament and see. It might not tell you how good world wide, but it will give you an idea. I am sure there are world class shooters in China. There are just a lot more shooters there. I am also sure there are world class shooters in other countries as well. -- Tex-shooter


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## hawk2009

Melchior said:


> I'm 100% convinced that the inherent accuracy of tubular rubber is not a tad better than that of flatbands. However, shorter bands that "snap" forward with a relatively low draw length make shooting a bit easier because you have to care less about the release of the pellet and have less time to move the slingshot during the shot. Many chinese shooters use this style with great success. However, the short bands come at the expense of lower band life (you pull the bands to the max) and a lot higher draw weight that can also make yourself inaccurate. So adjust the bands to the length and draw weight you are comfortable [email protected]: The chinese shooters use tubular bands, and like to show their skills on Youtube. But that does not mean their slinghots are more accurate. And there are a lot of equally impressive vidoes of shooters using flatbands. Also, consider that there are much more Chinese slingshooters than you'll find in the whole Western world combined. Slingshots are the only type of shooting device a Chinese citizen can legally own, and shoot outside a shooting club. I guess there are 4 serious chinese slingshooters for every serious Western slingshooter.


I have to agree on most of what you have said BUT I have asked several times before to see video's of flatbands being used in competitions or highly skillfull shooting video's and as yet I have still not seen many at all but your saying their are equal amounts of video's Soooo where are they.And I most certainly disagree that short tubes have a short life my tubes seem to last forever I rarely have to change the tube in my opinion the tubes I use will absolutely outlast any flatband by miles.


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## SlingMan

I would have to see some clear and un-edited video proof of some of the
sling shot accuracy claims I've recently heard tell.

Consistently shooting aspirin out of the air (wing shooting) would be one of them.

Actually, I would have to be present to believe that one.

Videos can be decieving in that distances can be exagerated greatly by the use
of zoom lens and wide angle lenses. Zoom lenses have what's called compression
effect where the distance seems right on top of each other whereas wide angle shots
seem further apart (between camear and subject) than in reality.

I'm not saying this individual can't do what I've heard claimed. I'm saying I would have to
personsally witness the feat.


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## dhansen

Tex-Shooter,

Frogman does have a Chrony.



Tex-Shooter said:


> Hey frogman, do you have a Chrony? -- Tex-Shooter


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## Melchior

Hawk,

you want to see some good flatband shooting? Here you go:





(First German slingshot tournament. All Germans used flatbands, and got excellent results. There was not a single tubular rubber on that tournament! Only flat bands and different types of Gum rubber)
Video1
Video2
(Just two of Geko's great vids)

Vid5
Vid4

There's nothing wrong with chinese tubes, but the accuracy is not superior to flatbands. by the way, the former Chinese national Champion also used flat bands.


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## JoergS

Slingman, if you want to see champions shooting flatbands, then join us next year at the ECST. Flatbands clearly dominated this year, and I can assure you the results the top three shooters achieved have been quite impressive.


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## hawk2009

Melchior said:


> Hawk, you want to see some good flatband shooting? Here you go:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvuqWDu7TUQ(First German slingshot tournament. All Germans used flatbands, and got excellent results. There was not a single tubular rubber on that tournament! Only flat bands and different types of Gum rubber)Video1Video2(Just two of Geko's great vids)Vid5Vid4There's nothing wrong with chinese tubes, but the accuracy is not superior to flatbands. by the way, the former Chinese national Champion also used flat bands.


 I never said they were superior i said every time i asked to see video's of flatband being used in tournaments or extreme accuracy none were ever provided,and if you get it from my point of view it was always just talk and we all know talks cheap. All i ever wanted was proof of what was being said i have not seen these video's yet but will watch them in a minuite thanks for posting proof at last.


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## dgui

What is your measurement of 2040 and 1745 from pouch to fork? I do best with no less than 6 but no more than 7 inches for 2040. Have not worked it out yet for the 1745 yet.


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## hawk2009

I personnally use 1745* four strand fixed it's total cut length is 17cm 1cm is lost due to the pouch attatchment another 1cm is lost on the other end of the attatchment where the bearing fits in the end of the tubing so the total is 15cm x 6 = 90cm draw length my actual draw length is 79 cm shooting like this means I am not pulling to the max it also gives me very good power and the tubes last a very long time it is for me ideal.


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## SlingMan

JoergS said:


> Slingman, if you want to see champions shooting flatbands, then join us next year at the ECST. Flatbands clearly dominated this year, and I can assure you the results the top three shooters achieved have been quite impressive.


Joerg, I'm talking about a specific individual that Tex-Shooter mentioned.

I'm NOT saying or even debating the flatband versus tubular band accuracy
comparisons. I'm questioning accuracy claims that I've read about but never
seen a hint of a video.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (at least for me). If someone
claims to be able to shoot aspirin out of the air with a sling shot, I believe that's
an extraordinary claim. All I'm saying is I would have to personally witness this claim.

BTW, if there is someone at the EC Tourney that can consistently perform this feat
I will be there to witness it. I will also give a $100.00 bill to the individual that can hit
at least 50% on this claim. No question about it! i will let a third party hold the cash.
Any takers? Just show up at the tourney!

I'll also make a prediction on the WINNER of that tournament. IF Bill Hays from
Waco Texas shows up I believe he will win IF he can get past ME. A newcomer
to sling shot competition will win that tourney. The "ole men" are going to take
a beating. LOL!!!


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## JoergS

What I can say is that if I shoot with one of my slingshot crossbows (red dot or telescopic sights), then the accuracy is very good. These weapons eliminate several typical human errors (not all of them, of course).

This clearly proves that the accuracy is in the shooter. My crossbows are nothing more than normal slingshots with a mechanical release and a solid "barrel" in between fork and release. Same pouches, same bands, same attachment. But reproducable pouch release, no anchor point or canting issues and so on.

A perfect shooter can - in theory - hit a coin size target from 10 meters with every shot. 
Some real life shooters come pretty close to that, look at what Rufus Hussey did in his days.

Jörg


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## SlingMan

Melchior said:


> Hawk,
> 
> you want to see some good flatband shooting? Here you go:
> 
> http://www.youtube.c...h?v=gvuqWDu7TUQ
> (First German slingshot tournament. All Germans used flatbands, and got excellent results. There was not a single tubular rubber on that tournament! Only flat bands and different types of Gum rubber)
> Video1
> Video2
> (Just two of Geko's great vids)
> 
> Vid5
> Vid4
> 
> There's nothing wrong with chinese tubes, but the accuracy is not superior to flatbands. by the way, the former Chinese national Champion also used flat bands.


Good shooting but nothing extraordinary at the German contest. Also, the video is decieving because
if they are using flatbands, it doesn't look like it unless they have the worlds smallest flatbands. Some 
of those bands look tubular to me ( hate compression).

The guy shooting the chopsticks is more impressive but even he is right under 50% (total shots versus total hits).

Any videos out there PERIOD of an individual consistently shooting aspirin out of the air with a sling shot.

If you've personally witnessed this feat please try and explain exactly how this individual goes about this
feat. For example, is someone else doing the throwing and the individual takes the shot or is the shooter
doing the throwing and the shooting?

Thanks for ANY and ALL evidence concerning this claim.

Curious. Why would such an individual not want to be videoed but doesn't seem to mind
performing LIVE for others? I don't understand that part.


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## JoergS

Slingman, just so you know, Bill ALWAYS speaks the truth. I never once saw a post written by him that was not absolutely founded, well spoken and utterly correct. I think you are too suspicious. We are talking about a man of honor here. If Bill says he knows such a gentleman, then I have NO DOUBTS whatsoever that this man exists.

Jörg


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## Melchior

Hey Hawk,

concerning the tournament: Believe me, I was there







all shooters used flatbands or some types of semi-flats - for example, many Czech shooters had latex bands with approx. 1.5mmx6mm, with 2 bands on each side. The Belgians mainly used thick latex sheeting or gum rubber with approx. 1.5-2mm thickness. Here are some photos of it: http://www.prakiada.cz/praky.htm

Which individual said to consistently hit an Aspirin in mid-air? I don't know anybody has made this claim.

And about video proofs - One example: I was once presented with videos of a chinese shooter hitting a bottle in a lake about 50 meters away - three times in a row! This is an excellent shooting. Hewever, there were three videos, all at the same lake, at the same bottle and clearly in different times of the day. The maker of the video literally spent a whole day at the lake to get his three hits in a row. Now that person is still a good shooter, but not as astonishingly good as the video might imply.


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## Tex-Shooter

Mel, there is a fellow in Tennessee that I have been told by others that can shoot aspirin out of the air. I have not seen it done, but I sell the person flat bands. He does not want his name used (I don't know why). -- Tex-Shooter


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## SlingMan

JoergS said:


> Slingman, just so you know, Bill ALWAYS speaks the truth. I never once saw a post written by him that was not absolutely founded, well spoken and utterly correct. I think you are too suspicious. We are talking about a man of honor here. If Bill says he knows such a gentleman, then I have NO DOUBTS whatsoever that this man exists.
> 
> Jörg


Jorg, I'm in no way questioning Bill's character. Please don't twist what I said, please.

I have on many occasions heard of claims from people of very high character that
say they saw such and such do such and such but when I went to examine the claim
for myself it turns out that the claim was interpreted very differently. Big difference!

Many times people use the same words but with different meanings. People see things differently
etc... This is exactly why I ask if anyone can describe exactly (as close as possible) what is being claimed
here. I don't think anyone on this forum would disagree that this claim is off the charts. Correct?

I would like to read Bill's side of this story.

BTW, I can't help but be suspicious Joerg, I used to be an investigator for years
of various claims. There's nothing wrong with questioning claims regardless of the persons
character. I hope we can at least agree on this much. Also, I mean no disrespect to you either.


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## JoergS

Well Slingman, I hear you. Professional habits can change your behaviour.

Maybe you just need to word your suspicions a bit more carefully. It is easy to insult an honorable man by suggesting he does not speak the truth. I'd rather not have that here. There is no need.

Your arguments aren't unfounded, Bill said he did not see the perfomance with his own eyes. And I have never seen anything like that too. But it is not impossible.

Jörg


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## hawk2009

Melchior said:


> Hey Hawk, concerning the tournament: Believe me, I was there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> all shooters used flatbands or some types of semi-flats - for example, many Czech shooters had latex bands with approx. 1.5mmx6mm, with 2 bands on each side. The Belgians mainly used thick latex sheeting or gum rubber with approx. 1.5-2mm thickness. Here are some photos of it: http://www.prakiada.cz/praky.htmWhich individual said to consistently hit an Aspirin in mid-air? I don't know anybody has made this claim.And about video proofs - One example: I was once presented with videos of a chinese shooter hitting a bottle in a lake about 50 meters away - three times in a row! This is an excellent shooting. Hewever, there were three videos, all at the same lake, at the same bottle and clearly in different times of the day. The maker of the video literally spent a whole day at the lake to get his three hits in a row. Now that person is still a good shooter, but not as astonishingly good as the video might imply.


You got the wrong man try again 



 No fakes here televised here is what I am talking about, Rufus I know about but he is no longer with us.


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## Gib

I wish I could understand what was being said in that second video there hawk, Even without understanding a single word is was very entertaining to watch thank you for the link.


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## dgui

hawk2009 said:


> I personnally use 1745* four strand fixed it's total cut length is 17cm 1cm is lost due to the pouch attatchment another 1cm is lost on the other end of the attatchment where the bearing fits in the end of the tubing so the total is 15cm x 6 = 90cm draw length my actual draw length is 79 cm shooting like this means I am not pulling to the max it also gives me very good power and the tubes last a very long time it is for me ideal.


Hawk, would you use the same measurement for the 2040 at 4 strand?


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## dgui

Melchior said:


> Hey Hawk,
> 
> concerning the tournament: Believe me, I was there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> all shooters used flatbands or some types of semi-flats - for example, many Czech shooters had latex bands with approx. 1.5mmx6mm, with 2 bands on each side. The Belgians mainly used thick latex sheeting or gum rubber with approx. 1.5-2mm thickness. Here are some photos of it: http://www.prakiada.cz/praky.htm
> 
> Which individual said to consistently hit an Aspirin in mid-air? I don't know anybody has made this claim.
> 
> And about video proofs - One example: I was once presented with videos of a chinese shooter hitting a bottle in a lake about 50 meters away - three times in a row! This is an excellent shooting. Hewever, there were three videos, all at the same lake, at the same bottle and clearly in different times of the day. The maker of the video literally spent a whole day at the lake to get his three hits in a row. Now that person is still a good shooter, but not as astonishingly good as the video might imply.


What mg size aspirin and if it is a baby aspirin this guy is good.


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## SlingMan

JoergS said:


> Well Slingman, I hear you. Professional habits can change your behaviour.
> 
> Maybe you just need to word your suspicions a bit more carefully. It is easy to insult an honorable man by suggesting he does not speak the truth. I'd rather not have that here. There is no need.
> 
> Your arguments aren't unfounded, Bill said he did not see the perfomance with his own eyes. And I have never seen anything like that too. But it is not impossible.
> 
> Jörg


Jorg, I totally understand and for the record if I insulted Bill in anyway Bill has my utmost apologies
because I find Bill to a very honorable man and from a generation of which we may
never witness again as far as being able to trust a man's word. I trust Bill's word and I have no
reason not to and all my dealings with Bill have been 100% fantastic and without any hint of a
problem.

It's obvious to me that Bill loves and appreciates life and his honor is one way I believe he shows
his trustworthiness. I can now see how what I said could have offended Bill and that was in no way
my intention.

My apologies to you Bill.


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## hawk2009

dgui said:


> I personnally use 1745* four strand fixed it's total cut length is 17cm 1cm is lost due to the pouch attatchment another 1cm is lost on the other end of the attatchment where the bearing fits in the end of the tubing so the total is 15cm x 6 = 90cm draw length my actual draw length is 79 cm shooting like this means I am not pulling to the max it also gives me very good power and the tubes last a very long time it is for me ideal.


Hawk, would you use the same measurement for the 2040 at 4 strand?
[/quote]
Yes the same length is cut for the 2040* I also test all band sets and slingshots breifly before selling them to make sure they shoot correctly.


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## SzBalogh

Hi!

Please recommend me a bandset from TheraBand gold for 60cm draw length (24") and 40+ J energy with 12mm steel ball or 0.457 lead ball!

Thank You!


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## Henry the Hermit

That is a very tall order. Check out the Power Rangers to see what members are using to achieve that power level.

http://slingshotforum.com/topic/21108-power-rangers/


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