# pros and cons of office bands



## Alex Jacob

Having tried quarter inch square rubber and Theraband gold in various configurations I've found myself firmly in the office band camp. Looped chains of No. 64 bands (89x6mm) from Staples were a good starting point - 2,2,2,3 each side - but a new lot have just arrived from Amazon. First up are "Quality" 208s (203x16mm) - inverted commas cos quality they ain't. Not for catties anyway. They snap at the slightest provocation and don't have that much stretch.

Big huzza for 5-star 38s (152x3mm) though! These are allegedly 90% natural rubber and would appear so from the amount of stretch and done up as looped chains with 4,4,5 each side are accurate, powerful, near-as-dammit silent and no hand slap. 6 quid a pound, guv, including shipping.

The **** with all this typing. I'm off out to shoot.

Alex.


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## M.J

Glad they're working for you!
I'm not a big fan of chains myself but am always interested in hearing about people doing well with these nearly free bands.


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## harpersgrace

I don't make them myself but I have shot them on a couple of slingshots I have been given and find that they preform very well....they are just too much work for me.


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## Charles

I have been shooting "braided" Alliance 64s for the past week. My preference is for the braided method, rather than the chain technique that Nico uses. Here is the braid:










And here is the more usual chain:










The braid has several advantages, from my point of view. The braid does not require any tie at the pouch. You just pull the band through the hole and you are done. Further, with the braid there is no loss of length in the knots used for the usual chain; the rubber in the knots is wasted as far as supplying power is concerned. Also, the braid is self-adjusting; with the normal chain, it is easy to get the rubber on one side of the knot a little longer than on the other side of the knot. In addition, it is a LOT easier to replace a broken piece on the braid than in a chain. With the normal chain, when a piece breaks, it is about as easy to make a whole new band than to try to untie those knots without damaging the rubberbands.

It is very easy to make tapered sets, just by adding extra rubberbands toward the fork.

In my experience, using Gypsy tabs and braids, the set up is about as accurate as flat bands.

Whether you use the regular chains or the braids, you will increase the life of your bands if you dust them with a bit of talcum powder ... baby powder works well. Put the rubberbands in a baggie with a bit of talcum, and shake it up well. Then take the rubberbands out and shake off the excess. Then proceed to make your chains or braids. The talc helps lubricate the bands and cuts down on wear.

Theraband gold will be faster with a lighter draw. But for availability and cheapness, it is really hard to beat office rubberbands.

Cheers ........ Charles


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## Alex Jacob

Absolutely. The 6" bands are good because there are only three links so only two double-thickness lumps per side as opposed to 4 with 5 of the shorter bands. My magnum snubby catty has 4,5,6 of these per side which give an 8" brace height and draw past my ear.

I can also change a broken band while running. Try that with Theraband!


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## HopefulHunter

I think that elastic bands are going to be my favourite method, simply because although i've finally got flat latex, i've nothing to cut it with, and the whole thing seems very time consuming. It's good to know someone bought those 5star bands, I didn't want to buy them in case they were no good! lol.

Eddie.


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## riverman

Hey Charles,

How well do those braided bands hold up and where do they seem to wear out first?


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## Charles

riverman said:


> Hey Charles,
> 
> How well do those braided bands hold up and where do they seem to wear out first?


I have fired probably 300 shots on the current set with no obvious signs of wear. I have not really kept track in the past, so it is hard for me to give you a definitive answer. And it all depends on how close to the elastic limit you stretch them. In my experience, it is usually one of the middle bands that break ... neither at the pouch nor at the Gypsy tab. With the regular chains, the break usually occurred at a knot, and my regular chains tend to break after a couple of hundred shots. Of course if you are using a "taper" arrangement, say a braid of 222111, then the break will most certainly occur at the "thinner" end of the braid.

Cheers ...... Charles


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## riverman

Thanks Charles..........will have to give them a try.

RM


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## Alex Jacob

I found that with the 89x6mm bands I had to balance them for strength on each side, otherwise I might end up with an uneven draw. The 152x3mm bands don't seem so sensitive. One advantage of these bunches of narrow bands is that if one breaks a corresponding one on the other side can be cut to permit shooting to continue, if a bit less powerfully.

Alliance bands seem to get a bit of good press here; my experience of Staples bands is good; The Quality bands I've tried are a bit fragile; these 5star bands are reet good - any opinion out there on who makes the best office bands for catties?


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## AJW

Charles said:


> I have been shooting "braided" Alliance 64s for the past week. My preference is for the braided method, rather than the chain technique that Nico uses. Here is the braid:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is the more usual chain:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The braid has several advantages, from my point of view. The braid does not require any tie at the pouch. You just pull the band through the hole and you are done. Further, with the braid there is no loss of length in the knots used for the usual chain; the rubber in the knots is wasted as far as supplying power is concerned. Also, the braid is self-adjusting; with the normal chain, it is easy to get the rubber on one side of the knot a little longer than on the other side of the knot. In addition, it is a LOT easier to replace a broken piece on the braid than in a chain. With the normal chain, when a piece breaks, it is about as easy to make a whole new band than to try to untie those knots without damaging the rubberbands.
> 
> It is very easy to make tapered sets, just by adding extra rubberbands toward the fork.
> 
> In my experience, using Gypsy tabs and braids, the set up is about as accurate as flat bands.
> 
> Whether you use the regular chains or the braids, you will increase the life of your bands if you dust them with a bit of talcum powder ... baby powder works well. Put the rubberbands in a baggie with a bit of talcum, and shake it up well. Then take the rubberbands out and shake off the excess. Then proceed to make your chains or braids. The talc helps lubricate the bands and cuts down on wear.
> 
> Theraband gold will be faster with a lighter draw. But for availability and cheapness, it is really hard to beat office rubberbands.
> 
> Cheers ........ Charles


I have never had the slightest interest in trying a chain configuration, until now. Charles, your explanation was simple, direct to the point, and I became involved in your comparison, and especially the up side of using the braid chain with a very available and cheap band. I will be trying it soon, I appreciate your sharing this information, thanks.

Al

PS The braid chain looks great on your frame, I think that is your mod of DH's design, isn't it?


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## Charles

AJW said:


> I have never had the slightest interest in trying a chain configuration, until now. Charles, your explanation was simple, direct to the point, and I became involved in your comparison, and especially the up side of using the braid chain with a very available and cheap band. I will be trying it soon, I appreciate your sharing this information, thanks.
> 
> Al
> 
> PS The braid chain looks great on your frame, I think that is your mod of DH's design, isn't it?


Thanks for the kind comments. Yep ... that's a Ninja variant with Gypsy tabs. It shoots very well with the braids. For "serious" work (hunting), I would use a tapered braid, which is dead easy in that configuration. Give 'em a try ... cheap and easy ... if you don't like them, you have lost very little.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## AZshooter

Do you think you might get better life from you bands, with less friction and rub, if you conditioned the bands with Armorall or some other type of popular rubber conditioner...it does provide additional UV protection, and since the bands are braided there is no problem with knots slipping...


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## Hrawk

AZ shooter said:


> Do you think you might get better life from you bands, with less friction and rub, if you conditioned the bands with Armorall or some other type of popular rubber conditioner...it does provide additional UV protection, and since the bands are braided there is no problem with knots slipping...


I always dust my bands with some talcum powder. It really seems to help, similar to the cornflour that Thera put on all their bands.


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## Charles

AZ shooter said:


> Do you think you might get better life from you bands, with less friction and rub, if you conditioned the bands with Armorall or some other type of popular rubber conditioner...it does provide additional UV protection, and since the bands are braided there is no problem with knots slipping...


I have never tried Armorall or anything similar. It is worth a try. Let us know how it works for you.

Cheers ........ Charles


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## AJW

Talking about lubricants.... do you remember the toy airplanes that were simply wings and a tail, with a long rubber band connected to a propeller on the front of the little air craft? We used to wind the rubber band up by turning the propeller until the band was twisted on top of itself and almost knotting, then when you released the propeller it turned rapidly and off the plane went.

That was very hard on the rubber bands, but they found that a lubricant would extends their life by reducing the friction from winding and unwinding. One of the lubricant they use is called Sil-Slick Rubber Band Lubricant. $6.00 for 2 oz. on EBay. I have some on the way and looking forward to trying it.

Small hobby shop dealers are usually very aware of the effectiveness of the products they carry and they have used this for years and still recommend it. So I think it must work to an appreciable extent and am looking forward to trying it. It would be nice if someone else tried it (like Charles) or a lot of Charles' tried it. At any rate, I will provide a follow up report when I "think" I have a result.

Al

PS: I don't think Armorall UV protection does anything, do you?


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## Charles

Of course I used to fly rubberband powered planes as a kid. We have a good hobby store here in Victoria. I will have a look for that stuff next time I am down there. Never heard of it before.

As for UV protection from Armorall ... I have no idea. But I am not so concerned about UV protection for my slingshot bands, as they are not exposed to the sun for long periods of time. I think the lubrication aspect would be more important.

Cheers ... Charles


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## AZshooter

My reason for suggesting Armorall is that I have used it on rubber products (other than slingshot bands) along with use on monofilament fishing lines that used to age, get brittle and chalky (no longer the case)...When making up chain sets you are inadvertantly applying heat and friction as you draw the loops together (weakening th rubber) ...The added lubrication helps with this problem...Talcum powder and corn flour may also help and I`m sure less expensive....The Armorall does "slick-up" the material so be carefull with use around crucial knots!...and I should say I have treated synthetics with this stuff that are more than twenty, and some possibly over 30 years old....A good cleaning occaasionally with mild cleaners is the start...


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## Sulcata

I like the braid design. I remember years ago doing the chain style and it snapping after only a few shots.I havent had a failure with my braided band yet but I am hoping since I use 3 bands the whole length it will hold if one rubber band snaps and that I notice it.


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## Charles

AZ shooter said:


> My reason for suggesting Armorall is that I have used it on rubber products (other than slingshot bands) along with use on monofilament fishing lines that used to age, get brittle and chalky (no longer the case)...When making up chain sets you are inadvertantly applying heat and friction as you draw the loops together (weakening th rubber) ...The added lubrication helps with this problem...Talcum powder and corn flour may also help and I`m sure less expensive....The Armorall does "slick-up" the material so be carefull with use around crucial knots!...and I should say I have treated synthetics with this stuff that are more than twenty, and some possibly over 30 years old....A good cleaning occaasionally with mild cleaners is the start...


Thanks for the information. I may yet give it a try.

Cheers ...... Charles


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## Alex Jacob

One of the problems with a latex T-shirt (great way to start a post, this) is getting the thing on and off without finding oneself tied up around the shoulders in a big, thick, sticky rubber band. The cure (if you don't want to go around lubed or dripping sweaty talc) is chlorination. I haven't done this myself as some of the avant-garde couturiers are set up to do it better, but I gather the process, involving things like ammonia and hydrochloric acid, essentially fills in the microscopic troughs in the latex allowing it to slide easily over itself. Certainly chlorinated T-shirts are easy to don and doff, and are comfortable in between.

Next time I send a couple of items off for chlorination I'll add a bag of office bands and let you know how it goes.


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## Charles

Alex Jacob said:


> One of the problems with a latex T-shirt (great way to start a post, this) is getting the thing on and off without finding oneself tied up around the shoulders in a big, thick, sticky rubber band. The cure (if you don't want to go around lubed or dripping sweaty talc) is chlorination. I haven't done this myself as some of the avant-garde couturiers are set up to do it better, but I gather the process, involving things like ammonia and hydrochloric acid, essentially fills in the microscopic troughs in the latex allowing it to slide easily over itself. Certainly chlorinated T-shirts are easy to don and doff, and are comfortable in between.
> 
> Next time I send a couple of items off for chlorination I'll add a bag of office bands and let you know how it goes.


Hmmm ... Latex T shirts sound KINKY







Actually, they sound uncomfortable to me, but I have never tried one. How about cutting slingshot bands from a latex T shirt?

I will be interested to hear how the treatment you suggest affects the rubberbands. I never heard of this before.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## Alex Jacob

If you're in a typical London nightclub... well, something like TG anyway... you're gonna sweat whatever you wear. It's like a wetsuit or armour - you rapidly get to equilibrium point then you're ok.

There are a couple of latex sheet manufacturers over here and the formulae are slightly different. 4D is the company I'm most familiar with - can't remember the name of the other one - and their stuff looks like it might be very suitable for catapults. It's available in a range of thicknesses and pretty colours from www.supatex.com


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## Pelletor

Hi Charles, I've been lurking for a while now as my interest in slingshots has been rekindled from posts on another board. I have been considering my options and would have never thought to try office bands. My experience was with red rubber bands made from truck inner tubes and when they disappeared, surgical rubber tubing.

I have and old oak "board" cut slingshot frame that still has one dark brown and cracked surgical rubber tube attached and a very dried out leather pouch attached. I went to Staples today after double checking for their Alliance 107 bands. Sadly when I drove there only Staples brands were available. I bought their "84" (3.5" x 1/2") and "64" 3.5" x 1/4") bands anyway. I have just mink oiled that old pouch and am waiting to see if it softens.

I have successfully made a pouch for a sling (not a slingshot) from jean material (2 layers with a light smear of "Goop" between them) and saw a post here about using seat belt material. I was wondering if you have any thoughts about using fabric like materials for pouches?

Thanks again for the office band enlightenment!


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## Alex Jacob

Just broken the first No. 38 band, near the pouch. Removed one from the other side so it's now 3,4,5 from pouch to fork in the folded/braided format and the thing shoots more sweetly than ever. I've not talc'd this lot cos I wanted to see how long they'd last. There's a second band on its way out now and I've only put about 50 shots through it.

Pelletor - I'd be wary of using any kind of oil or grease on the leather if it's in contact with the bands as rubber tends to dissolve in these substances. I use crust roo (tanned but otherwise untreated) for pouches instead of drum stuffed (greased) and finish forks with shellac rather than tung or linseed oil for this reason.


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## Pelletor

Hey Alex, Thanks! The mink oil was a bit of a concern so I avoided the area around the holes on each end of the old pouch but I had no idea the rubber in these bands was so reactive to that sort of oil to even avoid tung and linseed oil on the wood. Thanks for sharing!

I'm not certain I can recover the old leather pouch so I also started a pouch made of two layers of jean material. I traced around the old one. I have it curing between two blocks of wood clamped together with C-Clamps. I also found an old pair of leather slippers that I saved, my wife will be delighted to learn I DO have a use for them. LOL!


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## RedRubber

I've been putting,ever so lightly, Petro-Gel on my bands. Its Technical White Grease, used in the food industry. I've been putting it on my cooking apparatuses for quite some time. on the back of the tube one of the things it says it is good for is "O" rings. Its super cheap, available and I thought I'd give it a try.


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## AZshooter

One more note on lubricating rubber bands...When you lubricate the rubber bands before you knot up your chains, it makes handling a lot easier and less friction when you draw the knots tight...creating a neater chain band consistantly....


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## Charles

Pelletor said:


> Hi Charles, I've been lurking for a while now as my interest in slingshots has been rekindled from posts on another board. I have been considering my options and would have never thought to try office bands. My experience was with red rubber bands made from truck inner tubes and when they disappeared, surgical rubber tubing.
> 
> I have and old oak "board" cut slingshot frame that still has one dark brown and cracked surgical rubber tube attached and a very dried out leather pouch attached. I went to Staples today after double checking for their Alliance 107 bands. Sadly when I drove there only Staples brands were available. I bought their "84" (3.5" x 1/2") and "64" 3.5" x 1/4") bands anyway. I have just mink oiled that old pouch and am waiting to see if it softens.
> 
> I have successfully made a pouch for a sling (not a slingshot) from jean material (2 layers with a light smear of "Goop" between them) and saw a post here about using seat belt material. I was wondering if you have any thoughts about using fabric like materials for pouches?
> 
> Thanks again for the office band enlightenment!


Almost anything can be used for pouches. There are a number of concerns, however.

One concern is the extent of wear on the bands. Some materials may be harder on the bands than others. One of my concerns about melt-sealed nylon is that the melted material may be sharp and abraid the bands quickly. You just have to try things and see what works. If you are into sewing, you could probably keep the edges of nylon from raveling by sewing them ... or maybe seal them with silcon glue used for caulking around windows or tubs.

Another concern is how tough the material is. Cotton fabrics tend to be pretty soft and wear out pretty quickly. But as you suggest, maybe you could make a layer or two with Shoe Goo or silicon caulking between the layers, and strengthen it a bit without making it too stiff.

Another concern is how heavy the material is. The more your pouch weighs, the more energy the bands have to expend, so the slower your shot will be.

Some folks have used a couple of layers of duct tape for pouches and say it works well ... I have not tried it myself. One person on this forum experimented with weaving pouches on a very simple nail loom, using small diameter nylon chord, and that seemed to work well. As a kid, I tried auto inner tube for pouches, but found it tore pretty easily.

I buy old leather clothes from second hand stores and use that. The leather industry has discovered how to split hides, so most jackets and so on are very thin these days. I have been lucky enough to find older jackets (less costly anyway!) and a couple of leather skirts that were made from very heavy leather. Some on this forum have glued pieces of the thinner leather together with contact cement or similar glues, and they have reported good success. Other sources of strong leather are leather work gloves, leather boots, and welder's gloves and aprons. I find leather in belts to be too stiff.

I am sure that if you look around, check your second hand stores, you will find something that will work for you.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## Charles

Alex Jacob said:


> Just broken the first No. 38 band, near the pouch. Removed one from the other side so it's now 3,4,5 from pouch to fork in the folded/braided format and the thing shoots more sweetly than ever. I've not talc'd this lot cos I wanted to see how long they'd last. There's a second band on its way out now and I've only put about 50 shots through it.
> 
> Pelletor - I'd be wary of using any kind of oil or grease on the leather if it's in contact with the bands as rubber tends to dissolve in these substances. I use crust roo (tanned but otherwise untreated) for pouches instead of drum stuffed (greased) and finish forks with shellac rather than tung or linseed oil for this reason.


You have made a nice taper ... 3,4,5 . I would bet it shoots faster than 4,4,5, as long as the ammo is not too heavy. I will be interested to hear how your talced bands compare to the un-talced bands.

Cheers ....... Charles


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## Pelletor

Thanks for your very considered reply Charles.

I have gone on to make the jeans pouch and I'm about to attach it to my old frame after having linked (braided) several Staples 84 and 64 bands. Not sure what combination I'll end up with so it's too early to post here.

I did manage to weigh both the old leather pouch and the new jeans pouch at 3.86 grams and 2.72 grams respectively. I have no idea what a heavy or light pouch means so I decided to go with what worked for me way back when..... only in jean material.

I can hardly wait to take my 1st few shots! Below is a picture comparing the two pouches ( I hope)!

http://i320.photobuc...erJeanPouch.jpg


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## Charles

Those look like stone pouches to me ... that is, made for shooting stones. People usually select stones that are a bit on the large size, and the pouch needs to be larger to avoid foul shooting ... foul shooting occurs when the pouch slips from around the ammo, and the ammo flies off in a weird direction. If you are shooting steel or lead balls, you can probably get by with a smaller pouch ... by smaller, I mean narrower and perhaps shorter too. I shoot both stones and steel and lead balls, so I use a pouch that is larger than most of the guys here. My pouches are usually one inch wide (2.54 cm) and 3 to 4 inches long (7.5 to 10 cm). There is quite a bit of variation in pouch sizes on this forum. But it is perhaps wise to "go with what you know" and make changes slowly. As you get back into shooting, do not be afraid to experiment a bit, but try to change only one thing at a time so you can see what works for you. There are no really hard and fast rules!

Cheers ...... Charles


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## Alex Jacob

The 3,4,5 set-up was indeed faster than 4,4,5 but rather too short-lived. I've come down to 3,3,4 which seems to be about the same speed with M8 hex nuts as 3,4,5; probably because I'm drawing an inch or two more. Easier draw and better accuracy as well.

Following advice on another thread I turned my 'roo hide pouch flesh side out and yes, the grip and release are improved and the pouch has more of a, well, pouch shape to it.

Yep, talc works but it's messy. It'll have to do til I get the chlorination sorted out.


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## Charles

Well, I had my session with the 10 year old lad yesterday. I provided him with a Ninja variant, cut from HDPE, with a bycycle innertube covering for the handle, and a lanyard. I had it set up with gypsy tabs held in place by screws and acorn nuts. I let him try a braided 111111 set up with Staples 64s. They were too heavy for him to draw comfrotably. Then I had him try a braided 333333 set up with Office Depot 33s. But he found that to be too strong for him as well. So he and I talced some more Office Depot 33s and made braided 222222 bands, which were much more to his liking. I had him begin with aluminum foil balls as ammo before moving to 3/8 inch steel.

I sent him home with the slingshot, a bunch of extra rubber bands, some talc, an extra pouch, a pvc backstop, and some leather targets of varying sizes. I had a report that he was quite excited when he got home ... he was assembling the backstop and showing his dad how everything worked. Hopefully he will get a lot of joy out of the whole package.

Those braided bands were pretty easy for him to assemble, and he had no trouble changing bands with those Gypsy tabs. And it was certainly advantageous that the draw weight was easily adjustable to suit him. In case of breakage, he can find those 33s or 32s most anywhere and make up new band sets himself.

Those braided office rubberbands certainly worked well in this situation.

Cheers ....... Charles


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## johnny_canuck

First post here. Armorall? That stuff is really greasy. Silicone I believe. I would imagine that if any of this stuff getting on your slingshot would be virtually impossible to remove. Let alone on your hands. Talc power seams more reasonable. Ever notice that or a similar product is what is on many rubber items? Could it be because it stops friction?


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## Charles

Hey .... another Canuck. Welcome to the forum. Yep, talc is what they put inside bike innertubes to keep them from sticking together while folded. The nice thing about talk is that you can buy it anywhere.

Cheers ...... Charles


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## johnny_canuck

I am just getting into shooting now. The internet is certainly a great resource. That's how I found this site. I have ordered in 5 different slingshots from ebay. All metal variations to start with. Got in the first one last week and it had the surgical bands. Way to strong. My hand was shaking. So I went to Staples and got some #64's. Saw the way they are tied on this forum. Great way to adjust for strength. I have 3 sons and we do a lot of camping. This will be a very enjoyable hobby for target shooting. At least it's still legal here! I like simple. Not interested in going over board. Just like when we were kids. Oh, I got an elastic band eye injury when I was 15. When stretching a band another guy hit my hand and it hit me in the white of my eye. I have my grade 9 photo to prove it. Eye protection for me!


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## Charles

johnny_canuck said:


> I am just getting into shooting now. The internet is certainly a great resource. That's how I found this site. I have ordered in 5 different slingshots from ebay. All metal variations to start with. Got in the first one last week and it had the surgical bands. Way to strong. My hand was shaking. So I went to Staples and got some #64's. Saw the way they are tied on this forum. Great way to adjust for strength. I have 3 sons and we do a lot of camping. This will be a very enjoyable hobby for target shooting. At least it's still legal here! I like simple. Not interested in going over board. Just like when we were kids. Oh, I got an elastic band eye injury when I was 15. When stretching a band another guy hit my hand and it hit me in the white of my eye. I have my grade 9 photo to prove it. Eye protection for me!


Sounds like you are off to a good start. It is a lot of fun, regardless of your age. I think you will find those 64s a good place to start. You can adjust the draw weight to suit you and your kids, all from the same meterial. They are not the fastest bands on the planet, but they are a great way to get started. I am glad to hear your comments about eye protection ... we always think it will not happen to us, but then it does.

Cheers .... Charles


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## AZshooter

If you made some tests with the Armorall you wil find it does extend the life of the bands...and likewise with bike inner tubes...if cost is a problem use talc...most companies might pack with this to cut costs, but I wouldn`t say that it does a better job of extending the life of rubber...Apply lightly and remove all excess for best results...


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## Imperial

johnny_canuck said:


> I am just getting into shooting now. The internet is certainly a great resource. That's how I found this site. I have ordered in 5 different slingshots from ebay. All metal variations to start with. Got in the first one last week and it had the surgical bands. Way to strong. My hand was shaking. So I went to Staples and got some #64's. Saw the way they are tied on this forum. Great way to adjust for strength. I have 3 sons and we do a lot of camping. This will be a very enjoyable hobby for target shooting. At least it's still legal here! I like simple. Not interested in going over board. Just like when we were kids. Oh, I got an elastic band eye injury when I was 15. When stretching a band another guy hit my hand and it hit me in the white of my eye. I have my grade 9 photo to prove it. Eye protection for me!


64's and 84's is what i use. your kids will be able to draw these easily. i even use the 64's in a chain.


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## rubberpower

I started using braided chains on my chinese frames. It is incredible how well it works. I can highly recommend this to any one. If you have a chinese frame this is a must try.


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## rotorhead22

Hello to all. Is there a video or instruction to braiding the bands? I did a search, but did not come across anything. Thanks.


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## johnny_canuck

Is this what you are looking for?


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## rotorhead22

johnny_canuck said:


> Is this what you are looking for?


Awesome! thanks


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## Charles

Yep ... that is an excellent demonstration! Thanks for posting that. My only addition would be to suggest lubricating the bands with talc first. Just put a bit of talc based baby powder in a baggie, throw in the bands, and shake it all up. Then shake off the excess from the bands and proceed as above.

Cheers ...... Charles


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## rotorhead22

I bought the 64s and 84s at Office Max for $2.99 a bag. Those 84s will wear your arms out


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## Alex Jacob

Blast! Amazon is suddenly out of Alliance Sterlings, just as I was about to order some 117b and 207 bands. Just as well the No.38s are working as well as anything. Gone back to 3,4,5 cos as Charles says, it's a good, fast taper.

I recall that the Alliance 207s were available as Sterlings or "ergonomically correct" 100% rubber. Anyone tried these and if so, what's the difference between the two models?


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## Charles

Check out Sparco 107 bands from Office Depot. The batch I tried shot a bit faster (5 fps) than the Alliance brand. I suspect they are made in the same place ... just a different label. I checked their US website, and they seem to carry Alliance; their Canadian website carries Sparco. Amazon ain't the only on-line store!

Cheers ..... Charles


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## HungaJungaESQ

Oh! So -that's- how braiding works. The only thing I'm not thrilled about is the attachment method to the forks. Looks like you need Gypsy tabs or a set-up designed for chains. I suppose I could do the braid then just tie them to the forks like normal.

Thanks for the topic!

-Bob


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## Charles

HungaJungaESQ said:


> Oh! So -that's- how braiding works. The only thing I'm not thrilled about is the attachment method to the forks. Looks like you need Gypsy tabs or a set-up designed for chains. I suppose I could do the braid then just tie them to the forks like normal.
> 
> Thanks for the topic!
> 
> -Bob


 Absolutely correct. You can just tie the bands to the fork in the usual way, if you prefer.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## Alex Jacob

Well, I've just had my cattying world turned on its head by Mr. Henry's dissertation on 1842 tubing. 2 days playing around with it and totting up the cost (about 40p a set) and I've just unloaded all my office bands and talc onto a friend's two young sons. So far the tubes are lasting very well - longer than an office band set - and are way faster for much less draw weight.


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## Charles

Alex Jacob said:


> Well, I've just had my cattying world turned on its head by Mr. Henry's dissertation on 1842 tubing. 2 days playing around with it and totting up the cost (about 40p a set) and I've just unloaded all my office bands and talc onto a friend's two young sons. So far the tubes are lasting very well - longer than an office band set - and are way faster for much less draw weight.


I do not doubt your observations about tubes vs office bands. I believe there is still a place for office bands.

The tubes are generally much harder to come by than office bands. If I am on the road somewhere and need bands, I can bet on finding office bands just about anywhere. Knowing how to use them effectively means I can keep shooting. I can walk into a store most anywhere and buy office rubber bands ... sure can't do that with tubes.

It is very easy to teach kids (or novices) how to make bands with office rubber, and they can do the entire procedure with no measuring or cutting.

Generally, it is a lot easier and cheaper to experiment with the effects of tapering by playing around with office bands. No cutting, no weird tieing, etc.

Office bands work very well with quite heavy ammo ... they are not as fast with lighter weight stuff as tubes, but their velocity does not drop off so much with heavier ammo.

So, in general, I think office rubber bands are a good place to start ... and they are sort of a "survivalist" alternative.

Having said all that, my current preferred shooter is set up with a pseudo taper (half doubled) arrangement of 1745 tubes. And I have ordered some 1842.

Cheers ...... Charles


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## Btoon84

Charles said:


> Well, I had my session with the 10 year old lad yesterday. I provided him with a Ninja variant, cut from HDPE, with a bycycle innertube covering for the handle, and a lanyard. I had it set up with gypsy tabs held in place by screws and acorn nuts. I let him try a braided 111111 set up with Staples 64s. They were too heavy for him to draw comfrotably. Then I had him try a braided 333333 set up with Office Depot 33s. But he found that to be too strong for him as well. So he and I talced some more Office Depot 33s and made braided 222222 bands, which were much more to his liking. I had him begin with aluminum foil balls as ammo before moving to 3/8 inch steel.
> 
> I sent him home with the slingshot, a bunch of extra rubber bands, some talc, an extra pouch, a pvc backstop, and some leather targets of varying sizes. I had a report that he was quite excited when he got home ... he was assembling the backstop and showing his dad how everything worked. Hopefully he will get a lot of joy out of the whole package.
> 
> Those braided bands were pretty easy for him to assemble, and he had no trouble changing bands with those Gypsy tabs. And it was certainly advantageous that the draw weight was easily adjustable to suit him. In case of breakage, he can find those 33s or 32s most anywhere and make up new band sets himself.
> 
> Those braided office rubberbands certainly worked well in this situation.
> 
> Cheers ....... Charles


cool charles! that was sure nice of you!! : ) the boy still enjoying his shooter?


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## Charles

Btoon84 said:


> Well, I had my session with the 10 year old lad yesterday. I provided him with a Ninja variant, cut from HDPE, with a bycycle innertube covering for the handle, and a lanyard. I had it set up with gypsy tabs held in place by screws and acorn nuts. I let him try a braided 111111 set up with Staples 64s. They were too heavy for him to draw comfrotably. Then I had him try a braided 333333 set up with Office Depot 33s. But he found that to be too strong for him as well. So he and I talced some more Office Depot 33s and made braided 222222 bands, which were much more to his liking. I had him begin with aluminum foil balls as ammo before moving to 3/8 inch steel.
> 
> I sent him home with the slingshot, a bunch of extra rubber bands, some talc, an extra pouch, a pvc backstop, and some leather targets of varying sizes. I had a report that he was quite excited when he got home ... he was assembling the backstop and showing his dad how everything worked. Hopefully he will get a lot of joy out of the whole package.
> 
> Those braided bands were pretty easy for him to assemble, and he had no trouble changing bands with those Gypsy tabs. And it was certainly advantageous that the draw weight was easily adjustable to suit him. In case of breakage, he can find those 33s or 32s most anywhere and make up new band sets himself.
> 
> Those braided office rubberbands certainly worked well in this situation.
> 
> Cheers ....... Charles


cool charles! that was sure nice of you!! : ) the boy still enjoying his shooter?
[/quote]

The kid is still shooting ... has not destroyed anything serious yet. He even went out to the woods with his mother and showed her how to aim and shoot. I feel pretty good about that one.

Cheers ... Charles


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## HungaJungaESQ

Charles said:


> Well, I had my session with the 10 year old lad yesterday. I provided him with a Ninja variant, cut from HDPE, with a bycycle innertube covering for the handle, and a lanyard. I had it set up with gypsy tabs held in place by screws and acorn nuts. I let him try a braided 111111 set up with Staples 64s. They were too heavy for him to draw comfrotably. Then I had him try a braided 333333 set up with Office Depot 33s. But he found that to be too strong for him as well. So he and I talced some more Office Depot 33s and made braided 222222 bands, which were much more to his liking. I had him begin with aluminum foil balls as ammo before moving to 3/8 inch steel.
> 
> I sent him home with the slingshot, a bunch of extra rubber bands, some talc, an extra pouch, a pvc backstop, and some leather targets of varying sizes. I had a report that he was quite excited when he got home ... he was assembling the backstop and showing his dad how everything worked. Hopefully he will get a lot of joy out of the whole package.
> 
> Those braided bands were pretty easy for him to assemble, and he had no trouble changing bands with those Gypsy tabs. And it was certainly advantageous that the draw weight was easily adjustable to suit him. In case of breakage, he can find those 33s or 32s most anywhere and make up new band sets himself.
> 
> Those braided office rubberbands certainly worked well in this situation.
> 
> Cheers ....... Charles


I'm glad you did this. I'm sending one to my nephew in Calgary. His mom asked for one. He's about that age and it's nice to have a guide for the strength of bands to use. I made some tinfoil balls for him with which to practice. Can't wait to show you guys the shooter.

-Bob


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## Btoon84

So good to see kids holding slingshots instead of Xbox controllers.


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## Charles

I did find the tinfoil to be almost useless for target shooting. I really just use it so the newbies get a feel for how to hold and shoot the slingshot. Once they are comfortable with it, have the right position, and do not flinch when they release, I move them on to other ammo so they can develop accuracy. The tinfoil is so light that it is hard to do any damage with it ... but then it scoots all over the place in the air.

Cheers ... Charles


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## Alex Jacob

Mr. Charles old bean, I heartily agree! Apart from the bit about finding the blasted things. I've been all over this bit of London, which includes a fair few shops stocking rubber bands, but for the most part they're low quality and inconsistent. Hence having to order them from Amazon, as and when they're in. If I'm going to do that I might as well order direct from China. the 8 and 10 year old boys haven't that luxury and probably can't tie constrictor knots tight enough.


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## Abe_Stranger

Charles said:


> I have never had the slightest interest in trying a chain configuration, until now. Charles, your explanation was simple, direct to the point, and I became involved in your comparison, and especially the up side of using the braid chain with a very available and cheap band. I will be trying it soon, I appreciate your sharing this information, thanks.
> 
> Al
> 
> PS The braid chain looks great on your frame, I think that is your mod of DH's design, isn't it?


Thanks for the kind comments. Yep ... that's a Ninja variant with Gypsy tabs. It shoots very well with the braids. For "serious" work (hunting), I would use a tapered braid, which is dead easy in that configuration. Give 'em a try ... cheap and easy ... if you don't like them, you have lost very little.

Cheers ..... Charles
[/quote]

As a purebred Hungarian, I am curious as to what constitutes a "Gypsy tab." I'm not offended, just curious.


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## Charles

A Gypsy tab is just a loop, generally of leather, that is attached to the fork. The band is then attached to the loop. Here is an example with office rubber bands.










Here the loop is attached with a nut and bolt, but it can be tied on in the same way you would tie on a band.

Cheers ....... Charles


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## Karok01

Charles said:


> I have been shooting "braided" Alliance 64s for the past week. My preference is for the braided method, rather than the chain technique that Nico uses. Here is the braid:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is the more usual chain:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The braid has several advantages, from my point of view. The braid does not require any tie at the pouch. You just pull the band through the hole and you are done. Further, with the braid there is no loss of length in the knots used for the usual chain; the rubber in the knots is wasted as far as supplying power is concerned. Also, the braid is self-adjusting; with the normal chain, it is easy to get the rubber on one side of the knot a little longer than on the other side of the knot. In addition, it is a LOT easier to replace a broken piece on the braid than in a chain. With the normal chain, when a piece breaks, it is about as easy to make a whole new band than to try to untie those knots without damaging the rubberbands.
> 
> It is very easy to make tapered sets, just by adding extra rubberbands toward the fork.
> 
> In my experience, using Gypsy tabs and braids, the set up is about as accurate as flat bands.
> 
> Whether you use the regular chains or the braids, you will increase the life of your bands if you dust them with a bit of talcum powder ... baby powder works well. Put the rubberbands in a baggie with a bit of talcum, and shake it up well. Then take the rubberbands out and shake off the excess. Then proceed to make your chains or braids. The talc helps lubricate the bands and cuts down on wear.
> 
> Theraband gold will be faster with a lighter draw. But for availability and cheapness, it is really hard to beat office rubberbands.
> 
> Cheers ........ Charles


 Hey Charles, was wondering how the tabs on these pieces are attached. Do you have both ends of the tabs connected on just one side of the fork or do you connect the tabs through the screw on both front and back of the fork. ( are the tabs together, or do they come up and over the top?) Hope I explained my question well enough....would you happen to have a side view of these slingshots? That would help a lot. Thanks much.


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## Charles

Sorry to be so long getting back to you ... I just returned from a couple of weeks in Belize.

The tabs are folded in half, with the bands in the loop. The ends of the bands are punched to take the small screw. The ends are placed on the screw, both ends together, and the screw passes through the fork tip. When I draw, the doubled tab passes over the top of the fork. That arrangement produces less strain on the tab holes, and helps insulate the bands from the fork tips.

I will try to take a photo for you after I have unpacked and tended to a few chores.

Cheers ...... Charles


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## Jakerock

Does anyone know where I can find "Mr Henry's dissertation"?
Thanks!


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## Henry the Hermit

Jakerock said:


> Does anyone know where I can find "Mr Henry's dissertation"?
> Thanks!


Here you go.

http://slingshotforum.com/topic/13242-testing-chinese-tubes/


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## Jakerock

Wow, thanks for all of your work! Thats amazing.


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## Karok01

Charles said:


> Sorry to be so long getting back to you ... I just returned from a couple of weeks in Belize.
> 
> The tabs are folded in half, with the bands in the loop. The ends of the bands are punched to take the small screw. The ends are placed on the screw, both ends together, and the screw passes through the fork tip. When I draw, the doubled tab passes over the top of the fork. That arrangement produces less strain on the tab holes, and helps insulate the bands from the fork tips.
> 
> I will try to take a photo for you after I have unpacked and tended to a few chores.
> 
> Cheers ...... Charles


Thanks very much Charles, you answered my question perfectly. Belize huh? Sounds nice, I'd love to travel abroad one day. Alas I'm broke more often than not, and I'd probably lose my mind being away from family for longer than just a couple of days. Thanks and Cheers sir!


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## rotorhead22

AZ shooter said:


> One more note on lubricating rubber bands...When you lubricate the rubber bands before you knot up your chains, it makes handling a lot easier and less friction when you draw the knots tight...creating a neater chain band consistantly....


This may sound a little weird but while I was in the military, we used white vegetable shortening on our o-rings and packings for our aircraft. Most oil based lubes have a tendancy to eat up the rubber.


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## Deltaboy1984

Great thread! I learned alot.


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## fred45

thanks Charles, I am planning a fishing trip for 4 5-7 year olds and their dads, am going to make shooters for them the braided bands will allow us to make bands to match each kid and dad, the screw and gypsy band attachment will allow quick change as we try out the bands, I am going to bring a couple gallons of pea gravel for ammo on this trip.


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## D.Nelson

Cheap and effective are the pros. Cons for me, making a chain and having it snap a couple shots in. Seriously frustrating haha.


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## Deltaboy1984

I got side tracked with some issues and just got back to looking at this method.


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## Slingshot Silas

Wow guys,

This post started quite a while back, and I started using braided office rubber from the start of returning to slingshots from since I was a kid. Because of *THIS *exact post. I reread it from the beginning, and even learned some more new stuff. I'm thinking these bands are ideal for shooting BB's.

Not to step on any toes, but what are the advantages of "chains"?. Once again I apologize if I offend anyone, but I see no advantage to them. It seems like braiding is the only way to go, for several reasons. There are NO knots anywhere in the whole shootin' match! And, like Charles said the things are pretty much self centering, giving consistent pouch center, easy to attach at the pouch, and easy to attach at the fork. And easy to adjust draw weight. I have tied them on with paracord through the holes in my frame, and works like new money! I'm not interested in any speed records or trophies or what have you. They seem to get the job

done.

So, what are the advantages to *chained bands*?

I also, aplaude you guys teaching the kids about slingshots, safety, and responsibility. I have a project. A young man I know who is about 12 years old, and has a d!ck for a Dad. Dad doesn't seem to have much time to be fooling with the kid, and it is very sad cause the boy seems to be turning out OK in spite of how his Dad is. The boy likes me, and I take the time to talk to him about "his stuff", you know, his kind of *just stuff* he wants to talk about. So I'm going to show him about slingshots and safety. He seems to be a calm, cool, and collected kid. Wish his Dad was---at least one of the three. Dad and Mom all divorced, Mom with new Husband, and a brand new baby boy, and all that drama crap that goes with it. Anyway I talked to his Mom and Step Dad about the slingshot, and they were cool with the idea. Step Dad is pretty cool and level headed. They know that me and him will be going through the safety and responsibility aspects of the sport. He'll have his own safety glasses, and I won't allow him to shoot without them, when he's around me, and hopefully whenever he is shooting . I hope teaching him something this simple will at least teach him some measure of responsibility and reliability, as well as some fun for the kid, and even me! He *does* help take care of his baby brother, so He has a good bit of responsibility right there. He has had a rough life and it makes me feel sad about it. But, I even talked to his real Dad about it, and even he is OK with it. The man seems to have quite a bit of respect for me--I guess it could be because I've known him about half his life. He's probably about 40 years old now, and I am 56. Or, it could be that *"respect the old man"* thing. Or it could be that I might *slap the taste out of his mouth*, thang! Ha ha! Anyway, I think helping the kids is GREAT! Please continue to teach these guys as you can. I believe it (WE) can make a difference in some of these kids lives

Bravo Men, Bravo.

Sorry for the long winded Ramble-on.

SSS


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## Fletch

I love braided red clay 32s. You can build them up and "tune" them for any platform, i.e. tapers, longer, shorter, what have you. After watching some of "Volp's" stuff I'm going to develop a bareback system with the braids and using different types of common materials for pouches. My intent is to be able to build a "hunting level" catty out of things laying around a kitchen or office space, shooting directly off my hand, and being able to wrap it around my wrist or hang it off my neck when not in use. Maybe using a 1/4 nut for ammo. Imagine a weapon made out of harmless stuff just lying around...................... Man, I love these things..........


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## t-bear

Office rubber bands at Walmart are low cost $ 0.67 for a pack of #34s, #64s low price too.


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## fred45

I like the file bands a lot, here is one I am trading for 4# of hex nuts, a maple natty nice and pudgy with file bands, I added a #84 in the middle I had some in my drawer and needed a little extra length of draw, this guy has long arms. it pulls and shoots nice, i am going to have him pay attention to how long the bands last.


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## fred45

I like the braids over the chain only because it is easy to switch them out and as we see above mix and match


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## t-bear

Wow, love the chains with the tabs.


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## fred45

still one of my favorites


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## NoGuarantees

Good topic and posts....thanks! I learned a lot....


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