# Can't get away with body shots



## Gunnar (Dec 30, 2013)

Hey yall so how do some people manage to get squirrels with body shots but I've never gotten that lucky I've taken em with neck head and spine shots but thats it no heart shots whats up with that my main 2 set ups pass the bean can test. I use looped 1745 and 130 grain ammo or 130 grain ammo with single 1 inch straight cut tbg


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## Phoul Mouth (Jan 6, 2015)

You shouldn't be trying to take squirrels with body shots at all. IDC what your setup is, you have a better chance of maiming and causing unnecessary suffering than killing. If you are hunting you should be looking for clean kills.


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## Gunnar (Dec 30, 2013)

I know I always aim for the head Im talking about this scenario Ive taken plenty of game to know


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## Gunnar (Dec 30, 2013)

Also there has been times Ive accidently hit a squirrel in the chest instead of the head these things happen when you hunt evryday like I do


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## Phoul Mouth (Jan 6, 2015)

If you wanna limit the amount of suffering I'd suggest using lead shot as it's density will cause the most blunt force damage. Since you are measuring in grains I think you are already using lead shot though.

On top of that increasing the velocity of your bands would help as well. Looped 1745 should offer enough power, but for the TBG you might want to go to 1-3/4 taper or double bands.

You also want to get maximum elongation on our bands. Measure your draw length, then find the best elongation actor on your bands and set your band length so that at your max draw you are also getting maximum elongation. I usually vice off a 1 inch section of my new bands and stretch it over a ruler to see what it's elongation is. For instance 1 inch of my 1632 bands stretch to 4.75 inches. My draw is (I think)28 inches so I cut my 1632 to give me just under 6 inches of active length.

All that being said, squirrels are still rodents. They are tough. I have watched squirrels in my back yard fall from the tops of trees just to run right back up them. Their skeletal structure is also very flexible. If you hit in the body you have to do enough internal damage to organs to cause death. So even the stray body shot with all the above precautions still isn't entirely likely to do the job.

Oh, one more thing. Just because one batch of my 1632 has a 1:4.75 elongation doesn't mean every batch will. make sure to retest elongation on bands when you move on to new batches.

If anything here isn't 10% accurate I am sure someone can correct me.


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## Chuck Daehler (Mar 17, 2015)

I think Phoul Mouth covered it well. Tapered bands will launch more velocity per gram of rubber than straights. PER GRAM OF RUBBER. Lead being denser than steel will deliver more energy per square centimeter...meaning the trauma will be deeper and more of a shock with lead. I dunno if that will make that much of a difference but in theory it makes sense. Theory and fact are however two different things often enough.

Stretching rubber to its maximum produces the maximum velocity. It's amazing actually what that last 10% of stretch does..it's hyperbolic, not lineal function. High school math you are probably taking now should clue you in to what hyperbolas are and what it means...the more you go the more umph per unit of time (in this case stretch) you get. When you get a chrony for guns and slingshots you'll see what I mean. So cut your bands so your hunting ones are stretched to the max..they simply stop. That wears out rubber faster but for hunting it doesn't matter, you take less shots hunting, by far, than just practicing 150 shots per session. Save the bands for hunting and hunting practice only, using slightly longer bands for target practice, 85% stretch, to economize, buying less rubber.

Slingshot hunting is basically the stoppage of the nervous system and/or cardiac system more by blunt trauma rather than piercing trauma such as would be with bow or gun. That means you have to be right on the money with the nervous system...brain/upper spinal cord (neck) and right over the heart...both targets are small and difficult with moving animals if not just lucky or impossible. Frankly it's difficult with a slingshot. Plenty photograph their kills but it makes me wonder how many got away, limping or to die and suffer choking to death on their own blood or with mamed jaws and can't eat, alone somewhere, wondering why this happened to me when all I was doing was finding something to eat. Or trying to travel with a compound fracture of a leg or shoulder.... imagine trying to find food with a broken femur or totally wasted shoulder. A squirrel is about 2 lbs of mass. You are about 150 lbs of mass. A half inch steel ball to you is 75 times more massive to a squirrel...meaning a ball 75 times heavier hits you if compared to a squirrel. What if a cannon ball hit you at the same velocity?

Think about it and identify with the animal.

When I was young like you Gunnar you couldn't keep me out of the woods hunting (in season only)...but it was with fire arms that downed game spot on, not any suffering to speak of other than that painful minute until the brain loses consciousness and it all goes black. I thought of that and yes it bothered me...but not enough to stop me from hunting. It wasn't until I saw human suffering that killing became distasteful to me. Forever.

I'm not trying to preach on a Sunday, just imparting my views on a free forum. I don't expect you to suddenly change and I'm proud of you for your hunting accomplishments, certainly. Any lad should know how to shoot and hunt successfully and any father worth his salt sees to it a son does (and daughters as well). Obviously you come from a good family which condones this sort of thing. Again, I'm proud of you and your parents. It was just that things changed for me, and I wouldn't expect the same thing for everyone, not at all. Hunting with legal regulation is needed to prevent over population of animals in the wild, much more suffering results form that than what meets the eye. It's just that I let someone else do it. But yes, I'd be first in line for a friend's invitation to a venison supper! As long as he shot the deer.

I came to the realization that it is NOT weak or sissy to have a heart. I made myself hard. I was an egotistical shallow minded special ops night animal...I had to be hard to get the jobs done and the bad guys captured live (we seldom shot anyone, dead enemy is useless). I once thought it was sissy or weak to have heart. In fact I think it takes more spirit and more intestinal fortitude to have heart than just phart off suffering and fake not letting it bother me.

Chuck


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## Chuck Daehler (Mar 17, 2015)

I know you probably know this Sr. Gunnar but there are two factors in cutting bands or selecting tubes.
1. Shear power. You must have power to overcome the ammo's momentum sufficiently to attain velocity.
2. Velocity of contraction.

If you bog down the elastic with too much momentum, you won't/can't get higher velocities.
If you beef up the bands you will overcome momentum with power.
You can achieve more velocity, i.e. contraction speed, if you taper the bands.

So given all these factors, you have to experiment, either with Audacity sound program in your laptop to estimate velocity based on sound or purchase a chronometer. Audacity is a "poor man's chrony" and I've used it to success. It's freeware. You place your laptop/mic half way from you to the target, give it about 2 meters equal distance...from slingshot to target therefore is 4 meters. You can halve that as well but the longer range gives you less error (but slows the projectile a little).

What you do is measure the sound of the release...time...then the sound of impact...time...there is a difference in time, giving you 2 times vs the distance. A little arithmetic gives you the velocity in length units (meters, feet etc..). I toyed with this and liked the results, I don't have a real chrony (and don't need one).

Anyway, you have to experiment as to where the sweet spot is in draw poundage vs velocity for a given band and ammo combination.

From the velocity and mass you can calculate with the energy in ergs it imparts to the target. Erg is energy equivalent. There is a badge set awarded for this just as there is for velocity on this forum.

Using ergs and the velocity it takes to produce ergs you can swag the sweet spot between ammo and banding. It sounds complicated but it isn't. (Try to write to someone and tell them how to walk!). SWAG is short for "scientific wild arse guess".

In short, if you can shoot accurately with strong pull (more difficult than with weaker pull) then double band with TBG 1.5 cm per band to keep the banding slim...or 3cm per side once piece...or 1 inch, a bit less. I shot targets for years with 3cm per side (2 bands producing that) using 10mm x 11mm steel cylinders but my shoulders are wearing out so now I'm down to 2cm/side which many consider hunting power...no taper...flat non taper. That's just an example.

1.5 cm tapered to 1.2 or 1.1cm is a good taper at 95% of the stretch maximum. Double each side. 10mm steel to 12mm steel would be good also and 10mm lead deadly. 12.5mm or 1.25cm is a half inch for reference.


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## Phoul Mouth (Jan 6, 2015)

Apparently I was only looking for 10% accuracy in my last post. Really getting sick of this limitation on editing your own posts on these boards.


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

Gunnar, let me jump in for a moment here.

It is possible to take this sport in many different directions. There is the science aspect of shooting but there is also the art of shooting.

Let me suggest a slightly different approach to those above.

Experiment. Well, experiment while keeping a couple of things in mind:

1. Straight cut bands are good only because they are durable. You can use them for anything you choose but you will get much more power from tapered bands. In fact, I would bet good money that if you took one side of your 1 inch bands (just a single strip) and cut it into two pieces so that you ended up with two tapered bands of 5/8 x 3/8 inches that your velocity will go way up shooting the same ammo.

Latex is that way. It likes to be loaded and kept working as long as possible. Different portions of a tapered band will respond at different stages as the band regains its original shape. The end result is that it is pulling throughout the contraction process and not just doing one fast motion. [My everyday bands are 3/4 x 1/2 x 13 inches. It is a half butterfly setup that will throw a 7/16 steel ball or a 1/4 lead ball fast enough to hunt with. Try something along this line. Try shorter or slightly wider etc. Play around and see what feels good and hits hard. Shoot until they need to be replaced and then try another formula. Time will tell you all that you need to know.]

2. Double bands are for showing off and are of very little value otherwise. (I suspect I'll take a bit of a beating for that statement). The exception is if you are throwing 5/8 lead or something really heavy - heavier than makes sense for most people. The problem with monster banding is that you still need the band to pull throughout the contraction and double bands are usually way too heavy for whatever you are shooting. They snap fast and you end up with the bands not transferring all their power. A good test is hand slap. If you are getting handslap then the slap represents lost energy. A well balanced rig is smooth shooting and comfortable - and doesn't require you to start weight lifting to be able to handle it.

3. You will get much more power from making your bands longer instead of wider. If you haven't yet tried 1/2 butterfly give it a go. Invest in a rotary cutter (you can find them at your local sewing supply) and some TBG and experiment. It's fun and you will learn instinctively what style of band will work for whatever you want to shoot.

Body shots:

They happen. Try hard not to let them happen but if they do make certain your rig has enough power to dispatch the animal anyway. Knowing that you are going to eat what you shoot will help you in your shot placement. Practice, practice, practice. Respect your prey and always go for a clean kill but don't anthropomorphize the process too much.

winnie


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Amen to what Winnie said!!!

Cheers .... Charles


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

I ran the experiment I suggested above today:

I built a set of bands 1 inch wide by 13 inches long and sent six shots through the chrony.

Next I disassembled the band set and took one of the strips and cut two tapered bands from it. The new set was 5/8 inch by 3/8 inch by 13 inches.

I shot 7/16 steel balls. The number represents the best time out of six shots.

1 inch by 13 inch straight bands: 184.9 feet per second.

3/8 by 5/8 by 13 inch tapered: 222.9 feet per second

1/2 the rubber with a 38 fps improvement and a much easier draw.

winnie


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