# Why is TTF More Accurate than OTT for Sideways Shooting?



## sblrog (Aug 4, 2013)

First off, from reading the forums, I understand that most people feel that this is simply a matter of preference. At the same time, some OTT shooters have acknowledged that the most accurate shooters shoot TTF (e.g., Bill Hays). Bill Hays mentions in one of his videos that TTF gives less variability and less fouling. My question is, does anyone know why this might be the case? In other words, are there explanations from physics that would explain why TTF shooting should provide less variability and less fouling? If someone can explain this to me, I would appreciate it (and I would also be obliged to get an HTS for Christmas ).


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

I first came to the conclusion through a LOT of experimenting and then finally was able to prove what I thought was happening by looking at slow motion videos of the shooting process... It has to do with how the bands collapse and how the ammo is seated in the pouch...

With OTT, because there is a bit of a swing, no matter how hard you fight it... the ammo is flung a little with centifugal force... what I mean is, it's extremely difficult to place the ammo exactly the same in the pouch from shot to shot and because there is a little swing out no matter what, the ammo will not hit as close to the same as it will with TTF.... because with TTF the ammo in relation to the bands is simply collapsing towards the target... if the ammo is not seated exactly the same, it will not have much, if any magnification caused by the swinging/centrifugal force...

I know it's hard to explain, and probably hard to understand... but I have done a few public videos can maybe make it easier to understand... here's one:






So basically, if your setup can cause handslap... it also swings a bit... TTF shooting minimizes all that.


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## sblrog (Aug 4, 2013)

It's an amazing forum where I can have my first question answered by Bill Hays! Thanks for the response. I'm downloading the video so I can watch it offline (SLOW internet where I live). I have a few degrees in mechanical engineering, so I'll also give some thought to what you said about centrifugal forces. In any event, I'll probably have to try it out myself by buying a TTF shooter.

Take care!


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## Rayshot (Feb 1, 2010)

Bill Hays said:


> I first came to the conclusion through a LOT of experimenting and then finally was able to prove what I thought was happening by looking at slow motion videos of the shooting process... It has to do with how the bands collapse and how the ammo is seated in the pouch...
> 
> With OTT, because there is a bit of a swing, no matter how hard you fight it... the ammo is flung a little with centifugal force... what I mean is, it's extremely difficult to place the ammo exactly the same in the pouch from shot to shot and because there is a little swing out no matter what, the ammo will not hit as close to the same as it will with TTF.... because with TTF the ammo in relation to the bands is simply collapsing towards the target... if the ammo is not seated exactly the same, it will not have much, if any magnification caused by the swinging/centrifugal force...
> 
> ...


Interesting info. Never thought about this and don't recall reading or seeing this info. Good explanation Bill.

I wonder if this also explains the conclusion that was put forth that; "a center hole can throw a shot." I tend to think the center hole throwing a shot is a bit bunk.


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## DaveSteve (May 16, 2012)

I shot both ways and I did not see a difference in my accuracy, but I don't cut cards either. I believe you lose some speed with TTF.


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## ash (Apr 23, 2013)

Bang on, Bill. It's great to see it all play out in slow motion.

I prefer OTT so far, partly because it's easy to look straight down the bands, but I have TTFs in progress that I think will suit me just as well. The rebound of the bands in your video tells quite a story.


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## stej (Jan 16, 2013)

Bill Hays said:


> I first came to the conclusion through a LOT of experimenting and then finally was able to prove what I thought was happening by looking at slow motion videos of the shooting process... It has to do with how the bands collapse and how the ammo is seated in the pouch...
> 
> With OTT, because there is a bit of a swing, no matter how hard you fight it... the ammo is flung a little with centifugal force... what I mean is, it's extremely difficult to place the ammo exactly the same in the pouch from shot to shot and
> 
> ...


Bill, thanks for sharing. I believe watching video like this might help everyone a lot.

Interesting to see the flipping - why did you try that? I see no point as the ammo goes through the forks before you flip, so .. why?


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## Jaximus (Jun 1, 2013)

stej said:


> Bill Hays said:
> 
> 
> > I first came to the conclusion through a LOT of experimenting and then finally was able to prove what I thought was happening by looking at slow motion videos of the shooting process... It has to do with how the bands collapse and how the ammo is seated in the pouch...
> ...


You flip for more power, stej. It also helps to reduce hand slap when shooting OTT. It tends to reduce your accuracy, though.

Rayshot, I hope centering holes can't throw shots. I've been shooting with them since day one!


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## sblrog (Aug 4, 2013)

Bill, thanks for the video. Very nice musical accompaniment!

I have reflected a bit on your theory of the swinging/centrifugal (actually, centripetal, but who's counting?) effect in OTT shooting and its contribution to increased variability. Without a doubt, the effect is there. However, would it be there before the ammo has left the pouch? I'm not so sure (perhaps fellow Canuck Charles will chime in on this as I remember him commenting somewhere on when the ammo leaves the pouch). The swinging effect is caused by the attachment point(s) pulling back on the bands. This occurs once the bands have passed through the forks and have extended in the other direction. For TTF, the attachment points are aligned with the target line, hence the pull is straight back. But in OTT shooting, the attachments points are offset from the target line, resulting in a small component of force to the left (for right-handed pullers), which causes the bands to swing left on their way back, resulting in potential hand slap. But again, I'm not sure this should affect accuracy as I imagine the ammo will have left the pouch long before the swinging component of force kicks in.

Consequently, I'll throw another idea out there. I wonder if the increased inconsistency in OTT shooting can be caused by the band attachment method. Looking down the top band, we have a very skinny sight line near the forks. But near the pouch, the bands on my shooter are folded in half in order to attach to the pouch. If we cut the folded parts of the bands in half with a vertical line (plane), what is on the left side of the plane is not the same as what is on the right, i.e., it's not symmetrical. I'm wondering if this assymetry might cause small left-right deviations from the target line.

In the end, this is probably all a moot point. Most OTT shooters will likely stick with OTT. But I'm a bit of a perfectionist. If there is a potential for better accuracy with TTF, then I'm going to try hard to learn TTF.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Certainly there's a lot of work that can be done in trying to figure out the exact how and why... like you're saying when the ammo leaves the pouch obviously the course it takes will be unaffected by anything you do afterwards...

I think what's needed here is a high end slowmo camera... but I just don't have the 70,000 to spare right now.. so it's theory and conjecture until we do.

Regardless, the effect will be minimal at average slingshot shooting distances... literally milimeters, maybe an inch difference... and the only people that will really notice it are those who are shooting at very small targets such as cards or matches... shooting at cans or larger type targets it's doubtfull to me that most people would ever see any difference.


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## sblrog (Aug 4, 2013)

Agreed with everything you said.

To me, an inch is a fair bit. I hunt lizards for our cat and her kittens. The few that are left in our yard know me pretty well so that I can't get very close. Consequently, an inch or even a half inch would make a noticeable difference.


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## pult421 (Aug 13, 2015)

And will ttf reduce speed?? In youses opinions.. I feel it does but idk. Maybe its me.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Great discussion and relevant information. That Bill Hays video speaks volumes.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Most Chinese shooters shoot OTT. And their extremely accurate. Seen young girls cut cards. Look at Gernot Muller on face book and tell me he's not one of the most accurate shooters you've ever seen and he shoot OTT. There's a video of him tilting a beer bottle and shooting the cap off with out breaking the bottle. I'd say that's pretty Accurate.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

I agree with Cjw, I mean, if you do everything consistently, then ottnor ttf shouldn't matter. Apart from personal preference of course. Personally, I started with ttf, so I find it easy to aim and more comfortable but if/when I try ott, that may very well change.


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