# My Keys to Reliable Accuracy



## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

First off: I don't claim to be an expert on anything except what works for me. I'm sharing some stuff that I've been working on that has really helped me alot and if it works for anybody else I think that's great. And if not, remember the important thing - it works for me 

The first time I ever saw anybody shoot a slingshot with an open hand was at the 2011 ECST. Tom the Bunnybuster and I were out on the woods course and he asked to shoot the Saunders WRP that I was carrying around. I, of course, said sure thing and watched him fire off a few. He held the long, gangly slingshot with only the pressure from the palm side of his hand, fingers all the way open. I asked him why he did it that way and he told me it was an archery thing. Having not shot a bow since YMCA summer camp when I was 10, I didn't really get it.

Then this past summer a few things came together that helped me figure it out. First thing was that I got my own bow, a 30# recurve. In reading up on technique and experimenting with shooting styles I figured out that one holds a bow with an open hand so as to prevent "torquing" the string (or the bow, whichever). If you grip a bows handle tightly and draw the string back, you may move the plane of the two in different directions. If you draw with an open hand, using the hand only as a rest for the bow, everything is drawn back in the same plane.

But we're not here to talk about bows.

The second thing that happened was that I went down to Kentucky and shot with Jim Harris. I always pay attention to how Jim shoots because he's a much better shot than I am. One thing I've always noticed is that Jim always uses a lanyard when he shoots. No big deal, he's scared of the slingshot coming back and nailing him in the face, right? Not right.

The reason for the lanyard is that it allows him to shot the slingshot open-handed like a bow. This point was driven home for me when he and I switched slingshots for a bit and he not once but twice dropped my slingshot after releasing the ammo. This made me realize that he really wasn't gripping the slingshot at all but was using the hand as a rest and letting the lanyard do all the work.

Here's an illustration of what this looks like. I wouldn't shoot with my hand quite this open, it's just to prove the point.









I tried this technique when I got home and have used it alot since. I was using a lanyard for my "14 Cans in a Minute" video and I give the technique credit for helping me do that. Honestly, though, I'm not that in to lanyards. It feels like a hassle to me and I more often than not end up not using them even if I have one on the slingshot.

What to do, then.

I kicked the idea around for quite a while of putting a support of some kind on the front of the slingshot. I held off on doing it becuase, for one, I wasn't sure how to do it and two, I was afraid it would look stupid. Then I figured I should give it a go anyway, just to see. I ended up with this:









Sure enough, it looks stupid (hey, it's hard to add on to such a great design!). I thought about making a whole new slingshot with this kind of handle but I figured that if it wouldn't work on my favorite and most accurate shooter than why bother. What this design lacks in asthetic quality it makes up for in improvement in accuracy.

We see alot of designs with various kinds of palmswells that feel great in the hand when you're not shooting them but in reality it's the front of the slingshot that matters when the bands are pulled back. With this setup I can shoot with a no-pressure grip, just like with a lanyard:









I don't really shoot it like that, though. It's more like this:









The force of the draw is taken up by the "rest" that is my hand. The bottom finger is not really stressed but the "speed bump" on the handle keeps everything in place. I shot it this way all day today and yesterday as well as a bunch last weekend and can say it's the most comfortable shooter I have.

As soon as I put the appendage on the SPS I noticed that I was shooting tighter groups and my shot placement was more relaible than ever. Just like that I was hooked, as well as happy that my idea panned out.

One more word about grip. Alot of guys (and gals, my wife does this) shoot with the slingshot well forward in the hand and the thumb straight and stiff, like this:









I think this style is bad for consistency as well as being hard on the thumb-to-hand joint. I shot this way for a couple years and it eventualy became painful to shoot. I think a better way is to try to let the slingshot settle into your hand, like this:









I'm lucky to have big hands so this doesn't give me much trouble but there's a shape out there for everybody if you take the time to try different things and find what works for you.

I hope any part of this long post helps anybody. I would encourage you to give some of these ideas a try, it won't cost you anything and what else are you doing


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## lightgeoduck (Apr 3, 2011)

I like that "rest" idea. I light grip as well, and use the lanyard as the support, of course not always.. For the same reasons as you. Pinky holes are good, but not all slingshots are pinky hole worthy...

I have a question, did you permanently attach the shelf or is it inserted into the lanyard hole? I think it would be cool if the shelf was insert able, and mabe with a spongy back so it can be switched from one slingshot to the other and form to the different shaped handles.

Good stuff

Oh the thumb support comment is spot on, and I try that with the slingshots that permit me to.

LGD


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

The speed bump is held on with a screw through the lanyard hole. I just happend to have one exactaly the right length.


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## Beanflip (Sep 11, 2010)

Great post M_J. Good observation and explanation. Thanks for sharing .


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## Tentacle Toast (Jan 17, 2013)

Well I'm going to have to give this a go. Very thorough explanation, M_J, thanks for taking the time to share it!


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## BrokenPins (Feb 10, 2013)

Nice tips MJ, thank you! I've been carving a subtle Dayhiker style pinky hook on my most recent naturals and it's definitely been helping me, I thought it was just because it was easier to grip consistently. Will try your techniques today!


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## jazz (May 15, 2012)

great post, thanks!


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## Saderath (Jan 1, 2013)

Excellent presentation MJ! thanks for sharing!


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## Arturito (Jan 10, 2013)

Hi M_J ... that is exactly the same I have experienced with my ss (avatar). I will show in detail

3 fingers relaxed and anular and pinky fingers to withstand the pressure ...









the upper palmswell distributes the pressure over the arc between index and thumb base fingers









this is how it looks









and the catchbox mat is the victim of tight grouping









it gives such comfortable grip that I can abstract that hand and I can put whole attention in the release


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## stej (Jan 16, 2013)

M_J thanks a lot. We need such posts that explain some concepts that people use. It helps to spread the knowledge so much.

Concerning the grip - isn't it then almost hammer grip style? Just with the palm more open than in hammer grip style. Asking because I still struggle a little bit with finger/thumb support as I started with hammer grip. Then I read most people use finger/thumb support so I wanted to try that as well to see whether it helps accuracy.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2013)

Great tutorial. It makes all the sense in the world thanks for sharing.


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## PorkChopSling (Jan 17, 2013)

ok I'm going to have to try this out, because I've noticed that I get a little death grippy at times and when I do every things goes way south, kind of the same problem when I go golfing. Thanks MJ :thumbsup:


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## Btoon84 (Nov 22, 2011)

nice post mj thanks for taking the time. this will surely help some people. :thumbsup:


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## bigron (Nov 29, 2012)

great tutorial


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Good notion Mike.

This technique is also extremely useful for injured or weak hands as well... as a matter of fact last week I was practicing some speed shooting trickshot stuff I'm going to have to do and BAM, I stuck a .50 cal lead ball in my holding hand... the only way I could use a slingshot for the next few days was to use the lanyard as a brace technique.

For all others here's a video I did a couple of years back demonstrating this very valuable technique:


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## Thistle (Jan 4, 2013)

Good stuff, MJ! Thank you.

I really like my lanyard brace too. Thanks, Mr. Hays! :bouncy:


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## tradspirit (Jul 23, 2012)

Excellent tutorial! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Wingshooter's sling design works on the same principle that allows a finger hook for resisting the draw and a very light grip on the sling. I find that with bow shooting that sort of grip as stated earlier does prevent torquing the sling once the release is made. Oftentimes a very loose bow/sling hand will reflexively tighten down on the grip to prevent the sling or bow from "jumping out" of the grip hand at the shot The sudden tightening of the grip on release is typically what torques the handle and moves the bow and or sling before the ball is out of the pouch or the arrow is past the riser, naturally affecting the flight of the projectile. Most compound bow shooters use a bow sling for that very purpose. Traditional shooters tend to secure the bow with the thumb and index finger and relax the the other three fingers of the bow hand. Interesting parallels.....


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## All Buns Glazing (Apr 22, 2012)

MJ, I gave this a bit of thought and attached a lanyard to a slingshot that I made the other day. I made a few adjustments to the slingshot and used an open grip and it had a marked impact on my accuracy. Unfortunately, it turns my slingshot from a controlled weapon to completely illegal in W. Australia. :screwy:

Thanks for posting - I'll reply in a few days when I've had more time to properly judge my progress with this loose handed grip.


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## mr. green (Nov 3, 2012)

Thank you for sharing the information, M J. It greatly helps beginners like me.


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

All Buns Glazing said:


> MJ, I gave this a bit of thought and attached a lanyard to a slingshot that I made the other day. I made a few adjustments to the slingshot and used an open grip and it had a marked impact on my accuracy. Unfortunately, it turns my slingshot from a controlled weapon to completely illegal in W. Australia. :screwy:
> 
> Thanks for posting - I'll reply in a few days when I've had more time to properly judge my progress with this loose handed grip.


I'm really looking forward to your feedback on this approach!

Everybody else, too. I'm glad you guys liked the post, I hope it helps


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## Beanflip (Sep 11, 2010)

I think you are right on with your assessment M_J. It is something that I did't realize was happening. My current favorite sling has a pinky hole placement that makes this technique automatic. You nailed it.


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## lightgeoduck (Apr 3, 2011)

Alright, I tried this, by replacing my pinky hole with a support.. I have to say I like it.

Below is a pic of my set up I used the other day ( without the ammo at the tip  )


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## JetBlack (Mar 9, 2012)

BrokenPins said:


> Nice tips MJ, thank you! I've been carving a subtle Dayhiker style pinky hook on my most recent naturals and it's definitely been helping me, I thought it was just because it was easier to grip consistently. Will try your techniques today!


Pinky hook pic please?


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

Great stuff, M_J. I'm going to give it a try.


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

JetBlack said:


> BrokenPins said:
> 
> 
> > Nice tips MJ, thank you! I've been carving a subtle Dayhiker style pinky hook on my most recent naturals and it's definitely been helping me, I thought it was just because it was easier to grip consistently. Will try your techniques today!
> ...


Here you go:










I have this slingshot now and the hook works amazingly. I make all my naturals this way now. This shooter was one of the main inspirations for the idea of putting a support on my SPS.



Henry in Panama said:


> Great stuff, M_J. I'm going to give it a try.


Thanks, I hope you do!

It works great for my. I put the support on my new SPS and I don't think I'll go back to not using it. It doesn't decrease the pocketability too much and is more convienient for me than a lanyard.


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## All Buns Glazing (Apr 22, 2012)

Is that a pinky support in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?


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## All Buns Glazing (Apr 22, 2012)

M_J said:


> All Buns Glazing said:
> 
> 
> > MJ, I gave this a bit of thought and attached a lanyard to a slingshot that I made the other day. I made a few adjustments to the slingshot and used an open grip and it had a marked impact on my accuracy. Unfortunately, it turns my slingshot from a controlled weapon to completely illegal in W. Australia. :screwy:
> ...


Hey MJ

I've had a few days of shooting with an open hand vs gripping the slingshot and I'm still not sure. The lanyard? Definitely has helped me and now that I think about it, it certainly encourages me to hold the slingshot lighter, so I can safely say that by becoming more aware of my grip, I've become more accurate.

My technique has changed quite a bit this last week - I feel a video coming on to discuss different points on it.


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## Dr J (Apr 22, 2013)

Sometimes I come cross a natural fork with a branch at that point, I usually cut it off so that the handle is straight. After seeing this video I no longer do! Thanks for the tip, much appreciated.


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## Jesse Sha (Jul 23, 2013)

Nice pose,but I can't handle it steady


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## THWACK! (Nov 25, 2010)

Thanks for the great post.

As an archer, one who has always maintained that slingshooting is a first cousin of archery, due to it's shared aspects, I, and other archer-slingshooters, should have realized this. I shoot a recurve bow (Quinn Comet) holding it only with thumb and index finger, with the knuckles of my bow hand at a 45 degree angle to the riser (what some people can the "handle" or "grip" of the bow), to prevent torque. I allow the bow to pop towards the target (that is, I don't death-grip it). When the bow pops directly towards the target, it means that your form was good for that shot. I learned this from Rod Jenkins, from the Masters of the Barebow Vol. 3. I also was fortunate enough to attend his clinic last May - he's a great guy and coach. My shooting improved using his methods - certainly no more torquing, and I no longer "anticipate" shots

because I'm know using "back tension" (utilizing the rhomboid muscle instead of the forearm muscles in drawing and releasing).

So, applying the technique to shooting a slingshot makes a lot of sense, and you've almost got me kicking my butt for not realizing it sooner. Shame on you :banghead:

Great post

:wave: :wave:


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## Claudio (Nov 7, 2012)

Going to play around with this tip this week when I'm out shooting. Thanks M.J


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## Boardcutboy (Sep 21, 2013)

Bill Hays said:


> Good notion Mike.
> 
> This technique is also extremely useful for injured or weak hands as well... as a matter of fact last week I was practicing some speed shooting trickshot stuff I'm going to have to do and BAM, I stuck a .50 cal lead ball in my holding hand... the only way I could use a slingshot for the next few days was to use the lanyard as a brace technique.
> 
> For all others here's a video I did a couple of years back demonstrating this very valuable technique:


That sounds like it really freaking hurt! I can imagine your face! :cursin:


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## Arturito (Jan 10, 2013)

this is "Don Quijote", a gift from DayHiker and has the same pinky groove, I am using this technique for more than 6 month and even it is not my preferred fork width it shoots really good, very accurate ...









Cheers

Arturo


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

That's a great looking fork!


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## Arturito (Jan 10, 2013)

M.J said:


> That's a great looking fork!


yeah ... a beauty !


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## CCHGN (Oct 16, 2013)

M.J said:


> All Buns Glazing said:
> 
> 
> > MJ, I gave this a bit of thought and attached a lanyard to a slingshot that I made the other day. I made a few adjustments to the slingshot and used an open grip and it had a marked impact on my accuracy. Unfortunately, it turns my slingshot from a controlled weapon to completely illegal in W. Australia. :screwy:
> ...


well, I'm not trying to be difficult or anything, but I'm having hard time wrapping my mind around this.

I shoot guns and bows and both are a matter of lining up the sights and then having a good sight picture and then not moving it until the projectile leaves the projector(so to speak). I just am not getting how that translates into the slingshot.The slingshot has no sights, nor such a rigid delivery. There are so many variables at play.

So, if that's( open hand) all there is to it to good, consistant accuracy, I should be able to take any SS and be just as accurate, right? Then why do you and others refer to certain SS as "more accurate"? That tells me that the designs lend to accuracy, or is it that designs lend to shooting styles?

Don't bands and ammo play a part?

So, if you and I were standing right next to each other and you split a card and then immediately handed me your SS, if i just open my hand, I should abe able to split a card?

I just don't get it. I'm slinging ammo down range and see no way to aim( in my usual, line up sights) and see no consistancy( ammo flying all over the place)..


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## Metropolicity (Aug 22, 2013)

CCHGN said:


> MJ, I gave this a bit of thought and attached a lanyard to a slingshot that I made the other day. I made a few adjustments to the slingshot and used an open grip and it had a marked impact on my accuracy. Unfortunately, it turns my slingshot from a controlled weapon to completely illegal in W. Australia. :screwy:
> 
> Thanks for posting - I'll reply in a few days when I've had more time to properly judge my progress with this loose handed grip.


I'm really looking forward to your feedback on this approach!
Everybody else, too. I'm glad you guys liked the post, I hope it helps 
[/quote]

well, I'm not trying to be difficult or anything, but I'm having hard time wrapping my mind around this.

I shoot guns and bows and both are a matter of lining up the sights and then having a good sight picture and then not moving it until the projectile leaves the projector(so to speak). I just am not getting how that translates into the slingshot.The slingshot has no sights, nor such a rigid delivery. There are so many variables at play.

So, if that's( open hand) all there is to it to good, consistant accuracy, I should be able to take any SS and be just as accurate, right? Then why do you and others refer to certain SS as "more accurate"? That tells me that the designs lend to accuracy, or is it that designs lend to shooting styles?

Don't bands and ammo play a part?

So, if you and I were standing right next to each other and you split a card and then immediately handed me your SS, if i just open my hand, I should abe able to split a card?

I just don't get it. I'm slinging ammo down range and see no way to aim( in my usual, line up sights) and see no consistancy( ammo flying all over the place)..[/quote]
There are a lot of factors and yes bands and ammo are one.

What the OP is referencing is reducing the torque on the sling frame. Like shooting a bow, your grip should be loose and mainly to brace the bow/sling. The best way to describe it is if you think of your fingers and your thumb when gripping the sling to be your pivot point, the pinky can used to counter the draw weight of the bands.

The "death grip" , or gripping the sling/bow too hardly creates torque and movement post release which alters the trajectory of the projectile now matter how accurately you lined the sights up.

This is why I prefer the Chinese or frame brace style grip and sideways shooting over the hammer grip.

I developed a few slings with sights and they helped a lot to help me understand what I needed to do to get the shot where I wanted. Once I understood, the game changed when I switched to non sighted slings and started to hone my more instinctive aiming. More akin to a recurve bow.

Above all, accuracy is a product of practice and routine , so go shootin' tex!!!


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Yeah, that about sums it up.
Thanks, Metro :thumbsup:


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## SmilingFury (Jul 2, 2013)

In New York, the lanyard can be considered a wrist brace also so MJ's pinky bump( or a scoop in my case) has helped me with consistency and legality a whole lot. It is also much more relaxing to shoot with the bulk of the hand unflexed, not to mention the accuracy benefit. Just my opinion...

Be well,
SF


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## Metropolicity (Aug 22, 2013)

M.J said:


> Yeah, that about sums it up.
> Thanks, Metro :thumbsup:


Pretty much. Inspired by this post.

Pinky ring shooter, currently unnamed


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## Medley (Sep 22, 2013)

Storm trooper!!!


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## Metropolicity (Aug 22, 2013)

Medley said:


> Storm trooper!!!


BOOM! That's the ticket. I needs a paint job and white or black with a white or black paracord wrap!

I'll need to use some 1" TBB doubled up or something to make it the 'look' work. TBG will look off....despite the 'force'.


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## SmilingFury (Jul 2, 2013)

Metropolicity said:


> Medley said:
> 
> 
> > Storm trooper!!!
> ...


The only problem with naming it that is that storm troopers never hit anything they shoot at. They were notoriously bad shots though the first 3( the middle three by a star wars timeline) movies, no?


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## Metropolicity (Aug 22, 2013)

SmilingFury said:


> Metropolicity said:
> 
> 
> > Medley said:
> ...


True. However, they look cool doing it.


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## SmilingFury (Jul 2, 2013)

That does look pretty cool. I must admit. You have been pumping out design after design lately! Nice work.


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## Metropolicity (Aug 22, 2013)

SmilingFury said:


> That does look pretty cool. I must admit. You have been pumping out design after design lately! Nice work.


Thanks!

Back on topic, this is gripped in a different way, but the concept is the same. The pivot point is now moved to your thumb and index finger, the pinky is the counter balance.


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## SmilingFury (Jul 2, 2013)

This is my preferred grip actually. Finger hook and thumb brace. Sometimes, depending on the fork, I will sneak the thumb around more to a modified pinch grip.


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## S.S. sLinGeR (Oct 17, 2013)

Thank you. Very helpful.


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## nike (Oct 26, 2013)

Wonderful ！


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## sblrog (Aug 4, 2013)

First off, I have lots of respect M_J and all you guys. I started shooting a few months with a Trumark FSX-FO (upright hammer grip). Then I bought a custom wooden fork off e-Bay cuz I saw that a lot of the top shooters here shoot sideways with a hooked forefinger thumb brace. But when I tried this, my shots flew all over the place (even had a lot of fork hits). Because of this, I resorted to shooting sideways with a hammer grip, but with my thumb hooked in between the forks (kinda dangerous and I DID hit my thumb a few times in the beginning). I'm getting half decent results now, but I want to keep improving, so I was quite interested by this post. However, when I try the light grip, I get similar results to when I use a hooked forefinger thumb brace (shots fly all over the place). I know it might be hard just going on this description, but does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?

Thanks. Rog


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## sblrog (Aug 4, 2013)

sblrog said:


> First off, I have lots of respect M_J and all you guys. I started shooting a few months with a Trumark FSX-FO (upright hammer grip). Then I bought a custom wooden fork off e-Bay cuz I saw that a lot of the top shooters here shoot sideways with a hooked forefinger thumb brace. But when I tried this, my shots flew all over the place (even had a lot of fork hits). Because of this, I resorted to shooting sideways with a hammer grip, but with my thumb hooked in between the forks (kinda dangerous and I DID hit my thumb a few times in the beginning). I'm getting half decent results now, but I want to keep improving, so I was quite interested by this post. However, when I try the light grip, I get similar results to when I use a hooked forefinger thumb brace (shots fly all over the place). I know it might be hard just going on this description, but does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?
> 
> Thanks. Rog


Okay, a correction to the above. When I try to use the above technique and/or hooked forefinger/thumb brace, the shots don't fy all over the place, but instead fly consistently to the right of the target. I have a possible explanation for this. Upon release of the pouch, the fork pivots quite violently about the pinky end. This causes the bands to have a swing component about the same axis. I'm guessing with my current band configuration, this swing of the bands has an effect before the ammo leaves the pouch.


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## JEFF BURG (Nov 12, 2013)

sounds real good awesome infact :yeahthat:


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## Lee NZ (Apr 9, 2013)

Thanks for this article. I think of it every time I practice.


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Lee NZ said:


> Thanks for this article. I think of it every time I practice.


That's great, thanks for the feedback!


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## oldmiser (Jan 22, 2014)

Nice review MJ~I am a very old recurve archer with layanrd on the bow..my self from years gone by..loose grip..just keep the eye on target ..let your equip do the rest of the work for you..You may have to make a few adjustments to the strike of impact or placement of the shot....Like you MJ find what your shooting style works for you....Very well done I am sure it will help many people....I am by no means any kind of expert..I just shoot for my own pleasure..AKAOldmiser


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## AmmoMike (Dec 31, 2013)

Now i have to make a shooter to try this technic. Thanks to MJ for the great info & to Bill Hays for all the videos!
All of the folks here are GREAT!!!


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## WATERLOGIC (Feb 4, 2014)

If I understand it properly you must have a very strong pinky .










Three cases :

top : your way

middle : laynyard way

bottom : braced way

Goal : relaxed grip of the SS = less strain = more stable hold for shooting

Top: The hand should be open (have no other photo - imagine it is open only pinky gripping). If you use just your pinky (pressing at the add-on you put in the l. hole) you need to produce a contra momentum of the same magnitude as the drag force momentum if you want your ss balanced. Greater the distance D bigger the momentum .

Your pinky becomes overloaded compared if you use the other fingers too. I tried it and this hold is everything but stable (fine if it works for you )

Middle: The Layniard takes a part of the momentum but presses on the wrist / bites into it - better than above but still not good enough.

Bottom: best solution ! Why ? If you look at the anatomy of the arm some muscles are pressed down but the bone takes most of the force this results in an optimum stability to take a shot. If you have noticed the commercial braced slingshots have very high forks i.e. larger distance D bigger momentum but still no problem for the brace to take it painless ...

My five cents only ...


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## ZorroSlinger (Dec 12, 2012)

Five cents?! I am not as wealthy and I can only afford a quickie 2 cents 

Your illustration-diagram shows tall forks with hammer grip. More leverage forces on hand/wrist. The other grips - Pinch grip and Finger/Thumb grip, support the higher part of forks and much less leverage force.

However what you state about the forces & leverage is true, IF one uses hammer grip as shown in your examples with the conventional store bought trumark-daisy type wire frame slingshots. No criticism or anything and all contributions & views welcomed ... but just saying, clarifying ... ya know


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## WATERLOGIC (Feb 4, 2014)

ZorroSlinger said:


> Five cents?! I am not as wealthy and I can only afford a quickie 2 cents
> 
> Your illustration-diagram shows tall forks with hammer grip. More leverage forces on hand/wrist. The other grips - Pinch grip and Finger/Thumb grip, support the higher part of forks and much less leverage force.
> 
> However what you state about the forces & leverage is true, IF one uses hammer grip as shown in your examples with the conventional store bought trumark-daisy type wire frame slingshots. No criticism or anything and all contributions & views welcomed ... but just saying, clarifying ... ya know


Since I have this photo I used it. Note that I use the D variable (distance between the top of forks and rotation point) i.e. no matter what type of ss is on the photo - the point was to illustrate the principle (lower forks , or higher the rotation point (by lets say pinch grip) smaller the momentum etc at same drag force magnitude).


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Through hundreds and hundreds of hours of actual practice in the physical world I have found that I am much more accurate shooting the way I described in the post than I am shooting a commercial wrist braced slingshot.
And even so, I'm not telling anybody it's the "BEST WAY", just that it's my way.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

No question about it for me... I'm way more accurate with a properly designed wrist braced slingshot, and if the lanyard is setup correctly it works as a brace just as effectively as a metal one does. As always YMMV


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## WATERLOGIC (Feb 4, 2014)

M.J said:


> Through hundreds and hundreds of hours of actual practice in the physical world I have found that I am much more accurate shooting the way I described in the post than I am shooting a commercial wrist braced slingshot.
> And even so, I'm not telling anybody it's the "BEST WAY", just that it's my way.


No ofense man.

I just say what is logical also in our physical world. This is happening in all possible structures around you (buildings, machines, even in non man made objects like plants etc.)

If it works as you say for you nobody stops you to practice it &#8230; however logical it is not ...


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## sblrog (Aug 4, 2013)

Hi Waterlogic,

You and MJ might be talking about two different things. But it's possible that I haven't understood either of you correctly. Strictly speaking MOMENTUM is the mass of a moving object (e.g., flying ammo) times its velocity. DRAG FORCE is a slowing force that a fluid exerts on a body moving through it (e.g, air on flying ammo). So I'm not sure where momentum and drag force come into play in your picture. However, you do show a rotation point (axis) which gives me a hint about what you are trying to communicate.

In MJ's original post, he was referring to torque. Although I don't have experience with recurve bows, I understood this torque to be a tendency to turn the slingshot (upon release) about an axis running through (along, parallel to) the handle, as a result of gripping the handle too tightly. Consequently, gripping lightly with fewer fingers can certainly reduce this torque. Again, MJ's torque is different in nature (about a different axis) than the turning forces (moments) (ahh, I realize now that that's what you meant by "momentum") that you are analyzing (ones that turn the slingshot about an axis PERPENDICULAR to the handle).

And yes, MJ might have a strong pinky finger.

Respectfully,

Rog


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## WATERLOGIC (Feb 4, 2014)

sblrog said:


> Hi Waterlogic,
> 
> You and MJ might be talking about two different things. But it's possible that I haven't understood either of you correctly. Strictly speaking MOMENTUM is the mass of a moving object (e.g., flying ammo) times its velocity. DRAG FORCE is a slowing force that a fluid exerts on a body moving through it (e.g, air on flying ammo). So I'm not sure where momentum and drag force come into play in your picture. However, you do show a rotation point (axis) which gives me a hint about what you are trying to communicate.
> 
> ...


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## WATERLOGIC (Feb 4, 2014)

Bill Hays said:


> No question about it for me... I'm way more accurate with a properly designed wrist braced slingshot, and if the lanyard is setup correctly it works as a brace just as effectively as a metal one does. As always YMMV


Hi Bill

It can be proven that what you claim is structurally not true/possible .

Rigid brace vs paracord l. Simply because in our case :

paracord to bottom of handle point this is a rotation point, meaning if you let go the hold of all your fingers the ss will rotate around this point (try it for yourself if you do not believe) on the other hand with rigid brace you can let hold of all your fingers and the ss will not budge.

The reason being ropes can take only tensile forces but no pressure and no momentum (so you need the fingers to take this pressure part that is generated )

With rigid brace this will not happen if I put it simply all the forces are conveyed through it and you get a vertical force at the top of your arm and this does not have any influence on the ss itself - your arm takes the beating and your arm is pretty strong&#8230;

Paracord takes only a fraction of what real rigid brace takes - so paracord can not function as a brace .


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Waterlogic,

I swear, if I were to say "the sky is blue and grass is green" you'd come back with "no, grass is actually every color but green... it REFLECTS green".

Of course I know William Tell is a legend... and this stuff you're saying about a lanyard cannot be used as brace, I'm just going to write that off as subtle language differences.

Because not only can a lanyard be used as an extremely effective brace, there's actually a picture of it being used as one in this thread... it's the very first picture of MJ holding in an open hand style with his SPS.

Dude, you're over analyzing stuff... for some reason you seem to feel you need to instruct us all on how what we actually do, not just read about, but actually do... is somehow in error.

My advice to you is to take a slingshot outside and try some of this stuff out before you "educate" us all on what does and what does not work.. when you've obviously not even really tried. I mean it's good to have an opinion... but experience is far more valuable.


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

WATERLOGIC said:


> If I understand it properly you must have a very strong pinky .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Question, would you not need to take into account leverage? The pinky doesn't need to be "strong" as it is holding at the bottom of the lever... just an observation.



M.J said:


> Through hundreds and hundreds of hours of actual practice in the physical world I have found that I am much more accurate shooting the way I described in the post than I am shooting a commercial wrist braced slingshot.
> And even so, I'm not telling anybody it's the "BEST WAY", just that it's my way.


Spot on MJ. This is like when exercise physiologists talk about the bio-mechanics of the bench press and how someone should be able to bench 300lbs, yet haven't been in the gym.


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## Mrs. Clever Moniker (Nov 3, 2013)

BECAUSE SCIENCE!!!!!


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## Mrs. Clever Moniker (Nov 3, 2013)

WATERLOGIC said:


> If I understand it properly you must have a very strong pinky .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Goal: Let's test your logical conclusion.

Using the "best solution" of the Bottom option and all your knowledge of logic and science I would like to see you attempt to beat the Guinness World Record for most cans Hit in a Minute currently held by M.J.

You can talk all the logic and science you like but eventually you are going to have to start practically applying it or we are all going to get real bored REAL fast. (The previous statement is my logical conclusion based on common sense, and a general knowledge of how people tend to react to tireless know-it-all types) 

In other words, Put your Science where your Hands are.


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## WATERLOGIC (Feb 4, 2014)

Clever Moniker

Leverage = momentum

1st Picture : RED arrow( = drag (pull)) force x D wants to spin the ss Clockwise

Green arrow (pinky) x D has to be the same magnitude as above but in opposite counterclokwise direction if you want the ss to be balanced /stable

and for your info I am not a psychologist but a structural engineer with tons of practice in high rise buildings and bridges .

I am doing this for those who want to understand , and I react only when somebody is trumpeting a complete nonsense , so all those who do not care please do not get emotional.

I am not insulting anyone . If this forum is just another world of Alice in wonderland than everybody is insulted but it is not so based on private messages I receive.


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

You're not insulting me, and I hear you claiming that your logical, and I hear your claims to facts, and I believe you think you're right. Yet, and I don't know if anyone has told you this, just because you claim something is true doesn't make it so.


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## WATERLOGIC (Feb 4, 2014)

Bill Hays said:


> Waterlogic,
> 
> I swear, if I were to say "the sky is blue and grass is green" you'd come back with "no, grass is actually every color but green... it REFLECTS green".
> 
> ...


When you are wrong I tell you - anything wrong with that ?

You can instruct no one if you are not right, only religion does this...

As regards over anylizing .

No. I am just proving when you are not right.

Thank you for the advice. I am very much outside also playing with slingshots among many other things.

Experience without knowledge limits your creativity sooner or later - but surely ...


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## Mrs. Clever Moniker (Nov 3, 2013)

WATERLOGIC said:


> Bill Hays said:
> 
> 
> > Waterlogic,
> ...


"The only source of knowledge is experience" -Albert Einstein

Because Einstein.


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## WATERLOGIC (Feb 4, 2014)

Mrs. Clever Moniker

Do you know that good part of all higher mathematics used to prove his theories was performed by his wife ?

And I never said that experience is not important - but experience based on wrong supposition is useless ...

Like there is a lightning - there must be god doing this ...


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## TSM (Oct 8, 2013)

WATERLOGIC said:


> If I understand it properly you must have a very strong pinky .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't want to start anything here, but I feel that the pivot point (rotation point) in your pictures may be incorrect. The rotation point would be the highest point that your hand grasps the slingshot. For the finger hook/ thumb brace, the rotation point would be the horizontal axis where your index finger and thumb contact the slingshot. Think of it like a see-saw where the rotation point is the fulcrum. In that case, you wouldn't need a super strong pinky, and the lanyard would have the same forces acting upon it as the brace only from a different vector angle.


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## Mrs. Clever Moniker (Nov 3, 2013)

WATERLOGIC said:


> Do you know that good part of all higher mathematics used to prove his theories was performed by his wife ?


If that is in fact true, I would argue that his ability to accept the help and input of others makes him an even wiser man than I thought. Do you see accepting the opinions and contributions of others as a fault?

Do you have any actual evidence to back this claim? Or should I take you at your word?



WATERLOGIC said:


> And I never said that experience is not important - but experience based on wrong supposition is useless ...
> 
> Like there is a lightning - there must be god doing this ...


You are right, you never came right out and said it. Who decides if the supposition is correct?


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## reset (Apr 13, 2013)

Your really just kidding right?

Can you not see that we are talking thumb resting and finger hooked type shooting where the pivot if i let go my pinky is at the end of the forks where i put my digits(finger,thumb)? Look at the OP's original post pic again.

I dont even need a strong pinky. In fact i have arthritis in my hands and can hold it back easily with just my pinky even with out a lanyard. Your diagram is hammer grip which of course changes where the pivot point is. But then you should know that your a engineer. So your just having fun here right?


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## WATERLOGIC (Feb 4, 2014)

TSM

yes, correct but in only pinky case - read this part again :

Top: The hand should be open (have no other photo - imagine it is open only pinky gripping). If you use just your pinky (pressing at the add-on you put in the l. hole) you need to produce a contra momentum of the same magnitude as the drag force momentum if you want your ss balanced. Greater the distance D bigger the momentum .

Equal momentum in the opposite rotational direction is required to stabilise th slingshot . If you grip with all fingers than you are correct .


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

Your arguments are disgustingly fallacious, that I do take offence to.


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## WATERLOGIC (Feb 4, 2014)

reset said:


> Your really just kidding right?
> 
> Can you not see that we are talking thumb resting and finger hooked type shooting where the pivot if i let go my pinky is at the end of the forks where i put my digits(finger,thumb)? Look at the OP's original post pic again.
> 
> I dont even need a strong pinky. In fact i have arthritis in my hands and can hold it back easily with just my pinky even with out a lanyard. Your diagram is hammer grip which of course changes where the pivot point is. But then you should know that your a engineer. So your just having fun here right?


Try moving your pinky away too - what happens ?

Chinese style "pinky hole" is better for you can better take tensile stress (it is like an anchor) on your pinky in our case your pinky is under pressure ...


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## TSM (Oct 8, 2013)

Again. I think you might be mistaken. in every case, the pivot (rotation point) will be the highest point that the hand grasps the slingshot. Since the pinky is holding the longer end of the lever, it will not to exert as much force as the bands pull. In the case of a hammer grip, the pivot point would be the webbing between your thumb and index finger. In the case of an index finger/thumb brace grip, the pivot point would be along the median horizontal axis where the finger/thumb grip the slingshot. A higher grip on the slingshot would mean that less force is needed on the pinky hole/lanyard/arm brace.


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## WATERLOGIC (Feb 4, 2014)

Mrs. Clever Moniker said:


> WATERLOGIC said:
> 
> 
> > Do you know that good part of all higher mathematics used to prove his theories was performed by his wife ?
> ...


It is called physics / static / dynamic and these are not suppositions ! Using this knowledge your building, vehicles etc are designed to withstand forces, like gravity / weight, wind, earthquake etc. This is no voodoo or black magic this is what our current technology is based upon .

So who decides ? Surely not emotionally affected individuals but science .


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## lightgeoduck (Apr 3, 2011)

WATERLOGIC said:


> reset said:
> 
> 
> > Your really just kidding right?
> ...


based off of MJ's picture and the way I shoot the same style slingshot and similar ones if I let go of the pinky and have no lanyard... the pivot point would be closer to the forks where my index finger and thumb brace the slingshot...

based off of MJ's post.. and the way I shoot some of my slingshots... the pinky isn't as stressed as it seems like you are claiming in your pictorial post.

in fact,, I normally use my middle finger as a "brace" too,, and I notice a big difference in the stress when I use only one or the other.. using only the pinky is less stress than only the middle finger.

I could go further and use jargon and formulas to counter your response... but the fact is you are right to a point... a wrist brace would provide ultimate support, I don't believe there is a doubt... however you using it to "disprove" MJ's post or the ones that agree with it.. is off point.. I know you like to be argumentative or have argumentative debates, but I would like to think I have a logical enough head to comprehend the fact that this thread wasn't presenting anything warranting a counter response..

His post showed a solution to his problem, and offered it up as a possible option to anyone else that may have a similar problem... it's called OPTIONS... because I know one thing for sure, not too many want a wrist brace on every darn slingshot they like using... I have wrist braced slingshots that no other solution would replace the brace with something else...

thanks for sharing your infinite scientific knowlege, I am sure you could help alot of fellow slingshooters out,, sadly though, it seems to be misplaced.

LGD


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## WATERLOGIC (Feb 4, 2014)

TSM said:


> Again. I think you might be mistaken. in every case, the pivot (rotation point) will be the highest point that the hand grasps the slingshot. Since the pinky is holding the longer end of the lever, it will not to exert as much force as the bands pull. In the case of a hammer grip, the pivot point would be the webbing between your thumb and index finger. In the case of an index finger/thumb brace grip, the pivot point would be along the median horizontal axis where the finger/thumb grip the slingshot. A higher grip on the slingshot would mean that less force is needed on the pinky hole/lanyard/arm brace.


My understanding was that the thumb and the pointing finger are just supporting the fork not gripping it but if it was meant that they are pinching the SS than you are of course wright - shorter D for the thumb & p.finger lesser pressure with the pinky required. Average D somewhere in between .


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## WATERLOGIC (Feb 4, 2014)

lightgeoduck said:


> WATERLOGIC said:
> 
> 
> > reset said:
> ...


My understanding was that the thumb and the pointing finger are just supporting the fork not gripping it !?

At least it looks so from the posters photos ...


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## Mrs. Clever Moniker (Nov 3, 2013)

WATERLOGIC said:


> Mrs. Clever Moniker said:
> 
> 
> > WATERLOGIC said:
> ...


Calm down now, don't get all upset. I am talking specifically about your claim about Einstein...

Now I could be wrong but lemme just throw a definition of science at you for the fun of it:

Science: "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

You seem to believe you have the "observation" part of science down to a nit-picky art. Yet you have multiple heavily experienced sling shot experts disagreeing with your statements...

They have evidence to back up their claims. Do you have any evidence to back up yours?


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## WATERLOGIC (Feb 4, 2014)

Mrs. Clever Moniker said:


> WATERLOGIC said:
> 
> 
> > Mrs. Clever Moniker said:
> ...


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## S.S. sLinGeR (Oct 17, 2013)

How about who cares how you hold it! Just do what feels best for you and keep yanking the latex.


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## TSM (Oct 8, 2013)

WATERLOGIC said:


> TSM said:
> 
> 
> > Again. I think you might be mistaken. in every case, the pivot (rotation point) will be the highest point that the hand grasps the slingshot. Since the pinky is holding the longer end of the lever, it will not to exert as much force as the bands pull. In the case of a hammer grip, the pivot point would be the webbing between your thumb and index finger. In the case of an index finger/thumb brace grip, the pivot point would be along the median horizontal axis where the finger/thumb grip the slingshot. A higher grip on the slingshot would mean that less force is needed on the pinky hole/lanyard/arm brace.
> ...


You are correct in that they are just supporting and not gripping. But whether grip or support, they still act as the pivot point; the fulcrum in the lever. In determining forces acting on a lever, you'd need to know the distance from the fulcrum to the ends of the lever. If you use a finger hook/thumb brace on a slingshot the is 127 mm (5") in total length, and you grip the slingshot 25 mm (1") from the tip of the fork where the band attaches, then your pinky or lanyard or arm brace is 101 mm (4") from the pivot.










much less pressure is applied to the longer end of the lever; the pinky end of the slingshot.


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

:boring:


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## TSM (Oct 8, 2013)

^ point taken...moving on.


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

Give up TSM, there isn't a point in beating a dead horse. Waterlogic claims to be rational but trust me, he's far from it. He claims to have no presupposions but his arguments are riddled with them.

Personally, I have found MJ's post to have helped me quite a bit, and I moved AWAY from a wrist braced slingshot.

It would be more logical (I think) to listen to the world record holder then a person who currently has a little more then 90 posts.


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## TSM (Oct 8, 2013)

but...but...I was just trying to help. :iono:


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

WATERLOGIC said:


> Bill Hays said:
> 
> 
> > Waterlogic,
> ...


There you go again....

English happens to be my native language so I'm pretty sure I know the definition of "brace"... but just in case you don't, the definition as taken from the Merriam Webster Dictionary should suffice.

1brace
verb \ˈbrās\

: to get ready for something difficult or unpleasant ( chiefly US )

: to give added physical support or strength to (something)

: to support (yourself) by leaning against something or holding something

*braced* *brac·ing*

CloseStyle: MLA APA Chicago



Full Definition of BRACE
transitive verb

1
archaic *:* to fasten tightly *:* bind

2
a *:* to prepare for use by making taut

b *:* prepare, steel <brace yourself for the shock>

c *:* invigorate, freshen

3
*:* to turn (a sail yard) by means of a brace

4
a *:* to furnish or support with a brace <heavily braced against the wind>

b *:* to make stronger *:* reinforce

5
*:* to put or plant firmly <braces his foot in the stirrup>

6
*:* to waylay especially with demands or questions

intransitive verb

1
*:* to take heart -used with up

2
*:* to get ready (as for an attack)

///////////////

One other small thing, and this one comes from experience, not from something I mistakenly misinterpreted by reading a book.... the bottom of a slingshot may be a rotational point, but with a properly affixed lanyard meant to act as a brace, the slingshot does not rotate. The two forks prevent this when the bands are drawn... and in fact even if there were the most minor of rotation it would serve to align the forces giving a more squared up or perpendicular angle when drawn... which in turn MAY contribute to even greater accuracy.

Whereas a solid brace would help to serve to counteract any corrective "rotation" that may exist, thereby causing a more uneven pull on the bands... which MAY cause less accuracy.

So when I say I am far more accurate using a braced slingshot, specifically one that uses a lanyard to bind the slingshot to my hand in such a way that it follows the actual definition of a brace... I DO know what I'm talking about... but of course I have actually experimented with many different styles of hold and many different brace methods.. unlike some who merely speculate and then try to argue using improperly conceived notions.

It is no accident when I, and many others here, shoot much better with a slingshot that has no formal sighting device on it... than most people can shoot a target pistol that does have sights.


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

Bill Hays said:


> WATERLOGIC said:
> 
> 
> > Bill Hays said:
> ...


You're clearly wrong... because of religion.  Best argument ever.

I'm literally going to run around the forum telling people their wrong... because of religion.

Anyway's, spot on Bill.


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

WATERLOGIC said:


>


your science and picture examples are wrong. the rotation point is not at the pinky (as you have marked with a yellow dot), its at the top of the hand, where the thumb and index finger wrap around the slingshot at the bottom of the forks. maybe if you just "shot" a slingshot for fun you'd understand it a little bit more. instead you tend to over analyze everything. when in hammer grip position, its best to use low forks and the natural forward cant, gun grip hold, of the hand to shoot with. the above pics of the hand in shooting mode are in the wrong position, therefore applying pressure to the wrist and causing the slingshot and the holding hand to move back . just go and hold a slingshot like you would a gun and notice how it leans forward naturally. and when you pull back, all the pivot is at the top of your hand.

best regards


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## S.S. sLinGeR (Oct 17, 2013)

Imperial said:


> WATERLOGIC said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


Hey imperial you forgot the hijack.


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## One Shot-Corey (Nov 17, 2012)

Lol slinger good one :thumbsup:


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

S.S. sLinGeR said:


> Hey imperial you forgot the hijack.


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

Alright. Here is a science video with a slingshot in a laboratory at 30 seconds in. I hope this clarifies things.


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

treefork said:


> Alright. Here is a science video with a slingshot in a laboratory at 30 seconds in. I hope this clarifies things.


Best. Ever.


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

I'm going to create another account so I can like Treefork's post again :rofl:


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## jazz (May 15, 2012)

Hi all,

Just to give you all a little break from this very detailed discussion I have a question which bothers me for some time.

In this moment I have two very simmilar frames - both of them done after FishDough's design - but banded a bit differently.

One of them has TBG and the other some dunkung tubes on. Both rubbers are singles cut to accomodate my draw to the end of the shoulder, shooting marbles in this case.

The problem that bothers me is that I get repeatedly better, or more consistent shots with the TBG one than with the tubes. I do not hint here that TBG is generaly "more precise" than tubes since that would be misleading. I have this device that test how equal or not are two sides at full stretch, and bot of these two setups are tested and they are both perfectly matched at full draw.

So, now, what might be the cause? The TBG setup is on a frame that is wooden in essence, and the tubes one are on a frame that is made of some paper laminates and the last layer is leather. Is this because the TBG one is released over wooden more smooth surface, and the tubes over composite one which I must admit is not so smooth? Any other ideas?

cheers,

jazz


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## Rayshot (Feb 1, 2010)

"WATERLOGIC"- makes logical sense, "logic" is like "water" that runs through a sieve, watery, logic&#8230;WATERLOGIC. Very clever use of word play for an member name.

Couldn't help it. During, or should I say, enduring over 4 years of reading the inane, inaccurate, contentious, unreasoning etc. rants by ones that come here cause contention, pontificate their own arrogance and ignorance for everyone to see, I finally blew a gasket.

Just in case some don't get who I am referring to in this post; It is NOT ...Bill Hayes. Edited initial comment above.

I really don't care what happens to me regarding this post.


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## MiracleWorker (Jan 25, 2014)

I am not that experienced with slingshot shooting yet, that is why I do not argue with slingshot masters such as Mr. Hays.


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