# Design Philosohpy



## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

Okay, so here are my thoughts on the subject of slingshot design, and I welcome all to comment, agree, decry or everything in between!

To my mind there are essentially 4 types of slingshot design with number #1 being the most desirable and number #4 the least so. Each level indicates a drop in quality due to the level of compromise inherent in its design. Oh, and don't get me started about 'universal forks'...

1. A slingshot that is as close to a 'custom' design as possible. By this I mean that the frame must be designed to be used by a person that shoots either left or right-handed exclusively, can only be banded to serve that purpose and is useless to, for example, a left-handed shooter [assuming that it is meant for a right-hander].

2. A slingshot that, whilst as ergonomically satisfying as a #1, is designed to be used by a left or right-handed shooter. I'm thinking here of something like an HTS by Bill Hays that will serve both leftys and rightys. It can be used by a left-or-right-handed person, but only if the bands are configured accordingly.

3. A frame that is meant to be used by both left and right-handed shooters and can be switched between hands at will without changing the bands. The PPMG by Gamekeeper John springs to mind.

4. Everything else.

If you accept this analysis then it seems to me that there is literally only one frame design that fits the bill for #1 - do you know which frame I mean?


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

#1 is a slingshot that can be shot by anyone. Left or right handed w/o switching the band,. OTT or TTF. Beginner or expierenced shooter. That one frame that would leave one with no need to buy another.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Gather you mean the scorpion (and any variation).

Think are are correct up to a point (generalising) - but you'll find that frames are designed towards how its meant to be held - so in essence there are certain 'core' styles which tend to be used most often.


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## Tremoside (Jul 17, 2013)

Hi Murda,

Interesting topic, but I think it is a list of your preferences and not relates to design and philosophy. I can absolutely agree with categorizing slingshots. It is a natural way to process any type of information. Called "chunking" in psychology. However design is much more paired with theory and less with philosophy due to to the fact in applied arts we are much more tied to methods, progressions, iterations. Your points are valid for a first approach, but it is a way more complex theme.

Thank you for the read! Enjoyed!

Tremo



Jolly Roger said:


> #1 is a slingshot that can be shot by anyone. Left or right handed w/o switching the band,. OTT or TTF. Beginner or expierenced shooter. That one frame that would leave one with no need to buy another.


If a slingshot like that exist that means A, The shooter can not evolve, and there is no need to match the newly achieved skills B, Technology remains the same (no improvement of elastics for example), C, The shooter is not aging (ergonomic requirements are not changing over time) D, Cultural adaptation is not a goal (challenges of sub-culture are not accepted, like actual trends are not respected). E, Every user is the same, G, Performance is not driven by physical standards (benchmarking is missed).


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

LOL - leave it to Tremo to put it elegantly and concisely. Well said


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## Alfred E.M. (Jul 5, 2014)

*Attempts to intellectually pontificate and define parameters are silly. Design and life itself are never static, infinity is reality.*


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## Royleonard (Jun 30, 2017)

Well said and thought out Tremo !


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## Tremoside (Jul 17, 2013)

It is surprising my previous comment received 6 likes (counting my email notifications). But now it shows only 2. Just a philosophical note 

Edit: 7


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## jazz (May 15, 2012)

I do think that left or right handedness - or no handedness at all (universal) and in that sense "sidedness" that is, can a slingshot be turned both sides toward the target (as in top slot for example) or not - is the single most important reason for distinguishing "types".

It is more important, for me, if the slingshot is meant for hammer grip, pinch grip or combination of pinch grip and thumb support - possibly other members of this group.

Also, at least for me, in a way it is more important if the frame is a natural, board cut or a hybrid.

A slingshot can also be a bareback, a stick shot, PFS or some other.

They, and other criteria, can all be used as a basis for discerning types, as well as their combinations.

cheers,

jazz


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Slingshot shooting and therefore design is still evolving... it would be wrong to proclaim what's best or not this early in the game.

True, design and usage (to some degree) has almost exponentially progressed in the last decade... but I'm pretty sure there's much more to come... I mean, I for one have many new ideas and concepts... and I'm sure there's many others who feel the same.

//////

I think a better design philosophy question/answer might be in what does the individual see as their perfect slingshot... and as soon as you get the answers, you'll receive a myriad of answers.

Look for the commonalities and design from there.

What you'll ultimately end up with is a slingshot that can be shot hammer, thumb braced or pinch gripped... forks up, to the side or somewhere in between... tips that accommodate any elastic but don't look ungainly... can be easily pocketed... is extremely ergonomic and comfortable to shoot for hours upon end... is a natural pointer so that aiming is more of an affirmation not a requirement... and last but not least, fps is increased in comparison to other frames...

I think I have something in mind...!


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Idunno Bill. Would be interested to see your thoughts played out.

For me a solution needs to be as elegant as possible for the criteria specified. In a 'jack of all trades' approach there are always trade-offs. Unless the fork tips are totally replaceable for a specific band attachment...

generally a universal band favours TTF bands and moves OTT higher up as so results in more felt torque etc. I find a defined singular approach results in a cleaner all be it less versatile result - but would work well.


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## Tremoside (Jul 17, 2013)

LOL Advertisement has not changed over 150 years.


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## tastetickles (Jul 3, 2017)

Imo design is basically the designer's vision or concept to cater for a specific audience in how the designer think is the best way to do just that. Humans being different meant there will never be a perfect design for everyone.

I therefore see a successful design as one that the designer intended the product to be used for rather than how many the product was sold.

Example:

Toyota Corolla... Get people from A to B and being very reliable and cheap to maintain. It's design was a great success. Everything else that people think it's a plus is just a bonus. Some people think they are ugly, is it a design failure? Nope coz it wasn't set out to turn heads, styling just wasn't a priority in the design phase.


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## Hulla Baloo (Nov 25, 2017)

Designed to sell or designed to shoot?

Fork for the shelf or fork for the boot?

Rig for the eye or rig for the vest?

Form follows function. Simple is best.


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## pirateking (Jul 3, 2017)

Hmmm, sounds kinda socialist to me, but I'm an old revolutionary. Has to be made from politically correct materials of course. And self destruct whenever used in threatening manner. One size fits al? Bah. Unless I got the patent of course. I like to walk on the grass.


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## Hulla Baloo (Nov 25, 2017)

No, just a solid preference for the activity over the implements.


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## VAshooter (Feb 10, 2015)

Tremoside said:


> It is surprising my previous comment received 6 likes (counting my email notifications). But now it shows only 2. Just a philosophical note
> 
> Edit: 7


I see 10 "likes" now.

My opinion:

I think the single most important factor is comfort for the shooter. By that I mean the frame is comfortable to hold and It's easy to return to that same grip every time. When you find a frame that "fits" can you shoot it accurately? Whether it's pinch grip, hammer grip or whatever only matters to the shooter. He needs to be able to hold the frame the way he wants...if he can't then it's not comfortable. I have a modest collection of slingshots and I can find three of them that meet my criteria. One is a custom built by Nathan Masters, another is a Dankung Titanium custom, and the third is an aluminum casting of a scout which I don't shoot but I play with a lot. The Masters custom is my "go to sling" but next summer I'll switch off with the Titanium because I want to learn more about tubes. I have others that may be perfect for someone but not me. Some I can shoot well but they just aren't comfortable or repeatable so shooting them is a chore.


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## flatcap (Jan 12, 2018)

I think a design's ability to stand the test of time could be an indicator of great slingshot design.


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

Alfred E. Monkeynipples said:


> *Attempts to intellectually pontificate and define parameters are silly. Design and life itself are never static, infinity is reality.*


Actually your use of the word 'ponificate' is extremely telling. 'Defining parameters', far from being silly, are the means by which science advances. *"Design and life itself are never static, infinity is reality." *



VAshooter said:


> Tremoside said:
> 
> 
> > It is surprising my previous comment received 6 likes (counting my email notifications). But now it shows only 2. Just a philosophical note
> ...


I think that you have hit the nail on the head when you talk about whether a frame is 'comfortable' or not. What do all slingshot shooters want to do more than anything? Hit the target. What does that require? Endless practice. It seems to me to be a prerequisite for a 'good' design to be one that will allow you to push 100, 200, 300 rounds downrange without the need for blisters/calouses. How else will you get good! Certainly not with a board-cut that will slice your hand like a wooden scalpel...


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

Bill Hays said:


> Slingshot shooting and therefore design is still evolving... it would be wrong to proclaim what's best or not this early in the game.
> 
> True, design and usage (to some degree) has almost exponentially progressed in the last decade... but I'm pretty sure there's much more to come... I mean, I for one have many new ideas and concepts... and I'm sure there's many others who feel the same.
> 
> ...


"Slingshot shooting and therefore design is still evolving... it would be wrong to proclaim what's best or not this early in the game." I'm sure that you've fired many Colt 1911's in your time and it is unlikely that you would describe them as 'obsolete' or old-fashioned - over a hundred years after their introduction they are still the go-to choice for many police/military users. It never became a universal choice for left-handers, or for afficionados of 17+ magazines but that doesn't mean that it wasn't (isn't) a stunning handgun that in the right hands can acheive frightenly accurate results. I believe that there is a danger of trying to please everyone and consequently disappointing... well, pretty much everyone. The introduction of 'universal forks' was I believe a cynical attempt to capture the money of as many customers as possible whilst diminishing the capabilities of the actual frame. Horses for courses.


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

Jolly Roger said:


> #1 is a slingshot that can be shot by anyone. Left or right handed w/o switching the band,. OTT or TTF. Beginner or expierenced shooter. That one frame that would leave one with no need to buy another.


No it isn't. What you are describing is a COMPROMISE frame that whilst it serves a great many needs manages to excel at none.


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## VAshooter (Feb 10, 2015)

We have a variety of shooters spread all over the world shooting a mind boggling array of slingshots provided by a large number of manufacturers and if that wasn't enough we have many of those shooters who build their own slingshots to satisfy their needs. There will never be one slingshot that meets everyone's needs or wants. That's one of the interesting features of the slingshot.

The 1911 was a military pistol and millions of them were built and issued to troupes around the world. If you shot the 1911 you adjusted to the pistol rather than the pistol adjusting to you. Usually you were paid to shoot it. I was.


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## Hulla Baloo (Nov 25, 2017)

Murda said:


> The introduction of 'universal forks' was I believe a cynical attempt to capture the money of as many customers as possible whilst diminishing the capabilities of the actual frame.


Please identify the diminished capabilities associated with the universal fork COMPROMISE.

Thank you and good evening.


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

Mr. Nice said:


> Murda said:
> 
> 
> > The introduction of 'universal forks' was I believe a cynical attempt to capture the money of as many customers as possible whilst diminishing the capabilities of the actual frame.
> ...


The difference is comfort some people just like a certain frame because it feels good in the hand others buy them because they like the looks of it . 
It depends everyone is different what you shoot well someone else may not shoot as well . There is no perfect slingshot for everyone. Universals can be shot as good as anything else if you get use to using them .
The only difference is a costumized slingshot can be made specifically for a certain persons hand usally that means it will be more comfortable to shoot longer . Think like a well fitting glove fits your hand same concept


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Isn't the almighty Simple Shot Scout branded as the cure all slingshot that suits everyone? Hammer Grip, Pinch Grip, Thumb Brace Grip, OTT, TTF, Flat Bands or Tubes????? Guess that theory just don't hold water from reading some rather valid points listed above.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

JR - the scout excels with a certain approach. But it is compromised (but workable in others).


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Murda said:


> Bill Hays said:
> 
> 
> > Slingshot shooting and therefore design is still evolving... it would be wrong to proclaim what's best or not this early in the game.
> ...


You have some decent points... but your conclusions are merely based on YOUR interpretation, not necessarily the actual facts...

For example, and my right hand bears the scars to prove it(hammer bite), the 1911 pistol is NOT the go to pistol for police and military users... but it was in fact the ONLY choice for many years and many did find it to be the best choice for them... but many more prefer something else... hence the introduction of so many others since it's introduction.

Universal forks were NOT a cynical approach to try and generate more sales... it was in actuality one of several solutions to allow the usage of multiple elastics in multiple ways... That increased sales are a result of forks having universal tips is simply a positive reaction to people appreciating increased functionality. For example, we have offered the Hathcock Target Sniper in OTT only, TTF only, Tubes only and in Universal.... Universal Forked version outsold all three of the other versions by something like 20 to 1.... So now we only sell the Universal Version... because ultimately the customer is almost always right.

The idea of having one slingshot that is perfect for everybody and then trying to make it... is akin to tilting at windmills...

BUT, making a slingshot that can be modified via a modular system that allows semi-customization... that is a different matter altogether... and may very well be next generation we are to see.


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

If you look at what is on the market today you have low end middle end and high end .
Then you have some guys that started out high end going to middle and low cost slingshots and getting even more successful. The 
Market is all over the place. I think it comes down to how much you are into the sport . Usally the more someone likes a sport the better the more quality product he will buy for that sport . For example guys who really like golf buy better clubs or clubs advertised by there favorite player. On the highest end a lot of it is looks and fit . Just like in guns and knifes they start becoming works of art .


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

There is an old saying "Beware of the man who has only one gun, he probably knows how to use it". I am/was a wheel gunner. I've shot em all but settled on the Colt Python. I was fortunate enough to live in the days when lawmen carried revolvers instead of autos. However, some 40 years ago, I did buy a Colt Govt. Model 1911 45 ACP. Still have that nickel plated beauty. I can shoot it just as accurate as my Python. I wish I could shoot a slingshot as accurately as I can shoot those two handguns. I guess I'm just stuck in times gone by. Never cared for the SW autos nor even bothered to replace my 1911 with the newer and fancier autos. Moving on to something else would be akin to cheating on my two best friends. Even though I did shoot the action out of my Python and it needs to go back to the factory and I bought a Colt King Cobra to replace it for awhile, I just don't shoot the King Cobra as well as the Python....YET.

Slingshots like guns, one needs to shoot them to determine what suits one best. I've been shooting a lot of different slingshots this past year almost and have pretty much concluded that like guns, a good marksman can adjust and shoot almost anything. I've discovered that sweet and simple is all one needs. It isn't about how pretty a slingshot is or how many intricate curves it has that makes it a good shooter. It is the hands holding the slingshot that determines its usefulness and value. With all the modern improvements that have evolved, very few if any could grab a bottle of rocks and out shoot R. Hussey. A set of bands on a forked stick is all that is needed to be a good shooter. And most are even patterned after the forked stick with modifications.

I have to say that the no tie band attachment methods have made a big improvement in attracting new slingshot shooters. We all like to take pride in what we shoot. Like me with my Colt Python and Nickle Plated 1911 and what I call my Python Slingshot from Bill Hays. However, I've come up with an old style slingshot design that I can have cut out of 1/4" flat steel for $12.50 and powder coated for the same price. It won't break and not much need to put it through a stress test to prove its strength. I haven't had them powder coated yet and the few I've given away are greatly appreciated as is after I've spent a couple days hand polishing them. Very simple OTT design but sure attracts attention especially when someone picks it up and feels the weight of that thing in their hand. Reminds me of an old Savage 311 double barrel shotgun. I could always shoot that cheap shotgun just as well as my Remington 870. I believe it really boils down to how much effort one puts into becoming a marksman with any one given weapon.


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## VAshooter (Feb 10, 2015)

JR.... you make me want to tell gun stories and while I want to tell my stories I don't want to bore or anger forum members who tune in to read about slingshots. I do find your threads very interesting but I have broad interests.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

VAshooter said:


> JR.... you make me want to tell gun stories and while I want to tell my stories I don't want to bore or anger forum members who tune in to read about slingshots. I do find your threads very interesting but I have broad interests.


Don't worry about those who dob't want to read your stories. They can click on another post if they find your stories boring or uninteresting.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

JR your story proves tremo's comment. In the US with your less stringent gun laws the idea of owning a Python or a 1911 is a cool option to have available. For majority of the world a BB CO2 copy is about as close as you'd get. When I got my first handgun I had a large set of criteria that gun had to fulfil. As well as conform to local gun laws. Surprisingly very similar criteria to the slingshots I get now. Small pocketable, cost effective to run and maintain, accurate... I got a 22 target pistol. Not the ideal self defence weapon but it would work last ditch. Cultural, historic and personal aspects will always define the products that are created.

I could go on to explain how in ww2 the Fin's had a bayonetted designed that helped them fight harder spimply as it was culturally correct...


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

To Bill Hays:

"Universal forks were NOT a cynical approach to try and generate more sales... it was in actuality one of several solutions to allow the usage of multiple elastics in multiple ways..."

I'm sorry if you've taken any offfence regarding my comments on universal forks - I would never accuse you of cynical ploys to increase sales. You are, as a matter of fact, the reason that I shoot catapults at all. Your videos have proved to be truly inspirational and were the reason why I took up the sport in the first place.

It cannot be denied, however, that various vendors have embraced your concept of 'Universal Forks' to peddle substandard frames to wide-eyed newcomers in a genuinely cynical attempt to separate people from their cash. Every wannabe 'Bill Gates' of slingshots apes your designs within a month - Nathan Masters springs to mind - in an attempt to 'corner the market'. You design, create and sell the incredible S.E.A.L. and hot on your heels comes SimpleShot with their overpriced alternative. I made the mistake of 'almost' purchasing one of their frames and paid the price of two weeks of spam - here's an example:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A few days ago, you visited our online store and it looks like you didn't complete your order.

Gonna be honest, we really prefer when people do complete their order. So just in case the cost is the issue, we're offering you this *5% off orders over $25* coupon (it only works once). Orders over $50 ship free (USA orders only), too.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How did a little-known, afficionado-driven pastime turn into a corporate nightmare?


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

Here's another example that makes me literally want to vomit:

Cyber Monday Week Continues . . .

Today, it's the Big Three (Torque, Hammer and Scout) Bundle. Get all three in one bundle for just $109.99.

Available in three color combos. No substitutions.


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

What you'll ultimately end up with is a slingshot that can be shot hammer, thumb braced or pinch gripped... forks up, to the side or somewhere in between... tips that accommodate any elastic but don't look ungainly... can be easily pocketed... is extremely ergonomic and comfortable to shoot for hours upon end... is a natural pointer so that aiming is more of an affirmation not a requirement... and last but not least, fps is increased in comparison to other frames...

What a pile of crap. What you'll end up with is a sad compromise that will satisfy nobody. Think of semi-automatic pistols - has anyone EVER come up with the kind of weapon that you are talking about? In 100 years? A pistol that will be "easily pocketed", "comfortable to shoot for hours", a "natural pointer" blah blah blah...

Better brains than mine (or yours) have had a century to figure this stuff out and still can't come up with the 'ultimate' sidearm - why would you believe that this is attainable in a slingshot?


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

Murda said:


> What you'll ultimately end up with is a slingshot that can be shot hammer, thumb braced or pinch gripped... forks up, to the side or somewhere in between... tips that accommodate any elastic but don't look ungainly... can be easily pocketed... is extremely ergonomic and comfortable to shoot for hours upon end... is a natural pointer so that aiming is more of an affirmation not a requirement... and last but not least, fps is increased in comparison to other frames...
> 
> What a pile of crap. What you'll end up with is a sad compromise that will satisfy nobody. Think of semi-automatic pistols - has anyone EVER come up with the kind of weapon that you are talking about? In 100 years? A pistol that will be "easily pocketed", "comfortable to shoot for hours", a "natural pointer" blah blah blah...
> 
> Better brains than mine (or yours) have had a century to figure this stuff out and still can't come up with the 'ultimate' sidearm - why would you believe that this is attainable in a slingshot?


 I dont understand why you are so mad at simpleshot . They are one of the only places in the world that I know of where you can safely buy all the stuff he sales in one spot so what if he is trying to sale to you in a email click no thanks if you don't like it , you sound like you have a chip on your shoulder for some reason . he provides a service . 
Not sure what your point really is, personally someone really into this sport will probably make there own slingshot to there specifications / needs eventually.a vendor can only generalize what he can make or sale going on what his customers Buy . But for example you can't go out and buy a race car you have to make it yourself or Have it custom built . Same with slingshots 
If your good or want to get good any slingshot will work if you practice and learn how to shoot it .


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Murda said:


> To Bill Hays:
> 
> "Universal forks were NOT a cynical approach to try and generate more sales... it was in actuality one of several solutions to allow the usage of multiple elastics in multiple ways..."
> 
> ...


No, I'm not offended in any way... I just capitalized the words so as to be emphasized and clearly understood is all.

And yes, there have been a lot of vendors and builders both here and abroad, who've embraced and then sold many of my designs and concepts... Honestly it doesn't really bother me when that happens... it only bothers me when one of them declares themselves as the originator of something I did and go so far as to call it something else being that it's their "proprietary" design.

It bothers me because I feel very apprehensive about using other people's stuff and profiting from it... So if someone claims they're the creator of one of my designs, I feel that some may become confused and think that it is ME who's leeching off the creativity of that other guy... instead of the way it really is.

When I was younger I'd simply get irritated and take up some other hobby or endeavor... as I got older it is less and less easy to simply "let it go"... but I'm still not at the point of wanting to retaliate in some way.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Murda said:


> What you'll ultimately end up with is a slingshot that can be shot hammer, thumb braced or pinch gripped... forks up, to the side or somewhere in between... tips that accommodate any elastic but don't look ungainly... can be easily pocketed... is extremely ergonomic and comfortable to shoot for hours upon end... is a natural pointer so that aiming is more of an affirmation not a requirement... and last but not least, fps is increased in comparison to other frames...
> 
> What a pile of crap. What you'll end up with is a sad compromise that will satisfy nobody. Think of semi-automatic pistols - has anyone EVER come up with the kind of weapon that you are talking about? In 100 years? A pistol that will be "easily pocketed", "comfortable to shoot for hours", a "natural pointer" blah blah blah...
> 
> Better brains than mine (or yours) have had a century to figure this stuff out and still can't come up with the 'ultimate' sidearm - why would you believe that this is attainable in a slingshot?


It's the goal... the pursuit... the chase... the FUN of innovating and solving problems that let's us continue on this path.

Sure we'll probably never reach the summit... but that isn't going to keep us from climbing though!


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## tastetickles (Jul 3, 2017)

Bill Hays said:


> Murda said:
> 
> 
> > What you'll ultimately end up with is a slingshot that can be shot hammer, thumb braced or pinch gripped... forks up, to the side or somewhere in between... tips that accommodate any elastic but don't look ungainly... can be easily pocketed... is extremely ergonomic and comfortable to shoot for hours upon end... is a natural pointer so that aiming is more of an affirmation not a requirement... and last but not least, fps is increased in comparison to other frames...
> ...


Well said. On another note when will your BoyShot be available?


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

romanljc said:


> Murda said:
> 
> 
> > What you'll ultimately end up with is a slingshot that can be shot hammer, thumb braced or pinch gripped... forks up, to the side or somewhere in between... tips that accommodate any elastic but don't look ungainly... can be easily pocketed... is extremely ergonomic and comfortable to shoot for hours upon end... is a natural pointer so that aiming is more of an affirmation not a requirement... and last but not least, fps is increased in comparison to other frames...
> ...


I have to admit that English is my first language and that whilst I understand all of the words that you are using I genuinely have no idea what the hell you are saying.

If (as I think you are saying) you are implying that I have a bone to pick with SimpleShot, you are quite correct. I regard Nathan Masters' attempt to co-opt the slingshot community to his personal fiefdom as heinous and shabby. It was America that gave us the term 'carpetbaggers' and I believe that it is applicable here.


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

Bill Hays said:


> Murda said:
> 
> 
> > What you'll ultimately end up with is a slingshot that can be shot hammer, thumb braced or pinch gripped... forks up, to the side or somewhere in between... tips that accommodate any elastic but don't look ungainly... can be easily pocketed... is extremely ergonomic and comfortable to shoot for hours upon end... is a natural pointer so that aiming is more of an affirmation not a requirement... and last but not least, fps is increased in comparison to other frames...
> ...


You keep saying 'us'. 'We' aren't all gifted with your desire (or ability) to push the boundaries of what are already self-evidently finite lines. 'We' just want to hit our targets 99% of the time, skin them and then take them home to our wives/girlfriends/boyfriends/life partners/non-specific gender binaries/chimpanzees to eat!

It amazes me that you aren't more angry with posturing, greedy, self-publicising morons like Masters who blatantly steal your design ideas and then promote them as their own - I imagine that you are as dispassionate and detached when you see them through a scope!


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## flatcap (Jan 12, 2018)

Murda said:


> romanljc said:
> 
> 
> > Murda said:
> ...


Have you ever met Nathan Masters? Please refrain from insulting him and what he does until you have met him in person.


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

Murda said:


> romanljc said:
> 
> 
> > Murda said:
> ...


Just wondering what other vendor don't you like what about Romany custom catapults gamekeeper John anyone else on your s list or the big boys like Barnett TruMark any of those get under your skin .
Just trying to understand your position better before I make an opinion about it.


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

romanljc said:


> Murda said:
> 
> 
> > romanljc said:
> ...


As a matter of fact I have deep reservations about the integrity of 'gamekeeper john'. When I first embarked upon my slingshot adventure, having seen many wonderful designs freely posted on this website I decided to purchase a single (quite small) slab of so-called 'multiplex'. It was my intention to create my own catapult along the lines of the magnificent designs I had seen. I spent the next six weeks watching his online antics (where he gleefully enjoyed shooting the sh*t out of everything) on YouTube before finally receiving a piece of plywood that looked as though it had been cut by a drunken chimpanzee. This was despite my having sent many emails asking where my purchase was. This is not a generic dismissal - this was my actual experience. I think what pissed me off more than anything was his appropriation of Bill Hays' design innovation regarding a 'sighting notch'. As an accomplished shooter this would have been a natural development for Hays, but for 'Gamekeeper John' it turns out that it was an opportunity for him to market his frames as having an 'Aiming Dimp'. Rarely have I felt so ashamed and discombobulated by a stupid person stealing a smart person's thunder.


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

flatcap said:


> Murda said:
> 
> 
> > romanljc said:
> ...


Why the f**k would I need to meet Nathan Masters? I'm pretty sure that he is, in person, a lovely man. I have no problem whatsoever with Nathan himself, and I'm sure that he is a kind and loving human being. As is Bill Gates. My problem isn't with the person - who I don't know - but with the commersionalison and monetearisation of the slingshot culture. To reiterate, I'm not insulting Nathan Masters - I'm depressed at what his attempts at 'slingshot world domination' are producing.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Nathan's made it easier to get quality slingshot supplies without hunting all over the place. And he stands behind everything. And at reasonable prices. Nobody's stopping any other vendors from selling the stuff Nathan sells. No one person cornered the design of every Slingshot .

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Alfred E.M. (Jul 5, 2014)

*You deigned to post your 'Design Philosohpy' but can't even spell it, although English is your 'first language'.*

*You exist in your intellect where you craft lofty, pretentious platitudes and post them as profound truths. It's all dry mind, like powdered milk ... ranging from simple gas bagery to snarky outrageous insults - the essence of an intellectual troll.*

*There's hope for you - think less, shoot more. *


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## txzap (Dec 14, 2017)

I just want ti know when Mark Seljan is going to

produce the slant again. I would really love to

get on the list to get one. Thanks


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## tastetickles (Jul 3, 2017)

txzap said:


> I just want ti know when Mark Seljan is going to
> produce the slant again. I would really love to
> get on the list to get one. Thanks


Yeah this.


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

Murda said:


> flatcap said:
> 
> 
> > Murda said:
> ...


I have only bought from simpleshot some Shooting Supplies I had no problems . And from what I here from others he runs his business very professionally. As for what slingshots he sells or even who's design it is im not the patent office . If anyone has a complaint or want to find out who made what first they're the ones to talk to .
If Nathan's dominating the slingshot world as you claim it's only because his stuff sells . If it was bad or how he sells it was bad the word would get out and his business would slow down and he wouldn't be dominating anything . You can't fault the guy for trying to be the best at selling slingshots that he can be it's a business that's what businesses do. If you got your stuff from him on time with out damage and he has a return policy if you don't like it too I believe .
You have nothing to complain about . As for the part about who made what first that what patents are for to decide .
I would say in general having someone like simpleshot around is a good thing even if you dont buy anything from him the more options around the better . Many things that people think is a new idea when they go and try and get a patent on it find out the idea was tried before (already patent) .


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

You know Murda - every now and these these sort discussions come up. The sort of damn-the-man / institution approach definitely shows your age. Were you involved with the riots in the 80's against Marge?

Regarding Nathan Masters. Yeah he sells slingshots - and yes he even mass-produces and sells those too (heaven forbid!!!). Though so does Simon of Wasp - Pro-Shot - Pocket Predator. For these guys to 'survive' they need to be operating commercially. To make money off something you actually enjoy is awesome - if you're good at it then kudos to them. Nathan definitely has taken a main-stream commercial approach and it seems to be working well. In fact he's by far the best at this and other producer/suppliers should really get a pencil and pad out and take notes... Bill recently made some changes to his site which are a vast improvement.

Is the fact that Nathan is blatantly mainstream vs a workshop tinkerer the issue? Because behind the scenes he turns out some insane customs... He come across quite amicable on his videos and has many go-to tutorials that are actually useful and don't involve shooting the c*** out of everything. Even hunting ones... In fact he's one of the few guys/companies who actually support the sport on a grass-roots level. Getting involved with the SSWC2018 in Italy (and being there in person goes a long way). Granted these things in turn don't hurt selling more product. But they're extremely good and affordable compared to many others. And he often promotes them for beginners. And being extremely accessible thanks to his approach (again compared to many other vender sites) means he's a one-stop shop - which sure as hell makes it easier and therefore by extension promotes the sport.

Regarding John - I have some issues with him as well. Not as he 'borrows' aspects of others designs to help him make an extra buck. Bill openly mentioned recently he and John often used to work in tandem. John's success seems to have been his downfall - as he makes to order it would seem he's been overwhelmed. I wouldn't say his pieces are particularly (as you mentioned) well made at all. But guys like to own something thats essentially famous by extension. And John like Bill, Nathan and others did make some useful important contributions.

My main issue with John (and many other Sunday-transit-van-industrial-estate-bunny-bashers) that proudly display their conquests on Youtube both promote slingshots - BUT at the same time have made them a target for legislation. The Government has taken notice and has clamped down all ready against what they see as illegal hunting and blood-thirst. If you read between the lines of the recent changes (and adoption of EU hunting regs) Hunting with a slingshot is technically not allowed any more. Even worse the public body that regulates the 'sport' openly casts a blind eye - trying to distance themselves as much as possible. You'd probably take a British gritted 'they won't stop me' attitude. Good luck with that - 7 months for a poached hare later.

Regarding UK makers. Most tend to copy international designs. The only saving grace is they do some fine work. Its quite rare that anyone in the UK does something unique (but when they do its awesome).


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

mattwalt said:


> You know Murda - every now and these these sort discussions come up. The sort of ****-the-man / institution approach definitely shows your age. Were you involved with the riots in the 80's against Marge?
> 
> Regarding Nathan Masters. Yeah he sells slingshots - and yes he even mass-produces and sells those too (heaven forbid!!!). Though so does Simon of Wasp - Pro-Shot - Pocket Predator. For these guys to 'survive' they need to be operating commercially. To make money off something you actually enjoy is awesome - if you're good at it then kudos to them. Nathan definitely has taken a main-stream commercial approach and it seems to be working well. In fact he's by far the best at this and other producer/suppliers should really get a pencil and pad out and take notes... Bill recently made some changes to his site which are a vast improvement.
> 
> ...


(If you read between the lines of the recent changes (and adoption of EU hunting regs) Hunting with a slingshot is technically not allowed any more.)
You should post that here please I'm sure guys here would like to know what's going on in the UK and other parts of Europe. At least i find it interesting to know .


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Romanljc - its still so grey - But the Gov hunting site contradicts itself. Also recently due to illegal hunting 'issues' everything from hunting-gambling to blood-lust - to blatant theft and harvesting of animal 'wealth'. The police have appointed specialist task groups to help manage and are taking a far harder line to offences. At this stage its both illegal and illegal to hunt with a slingshot. So you'd be at the mercy of the individual who prosecutes you. The UK law often seems to do this almost like it allows a certain flexibility due to the offence or something... I don't know.

I came across a poaching case recently where 2 guys were involved (guns) one for deer the other for a hare. Think the deer got 3 years and the hare 7 months. Though to be fair rabbits and grey squirrel are seen as pests and probably find they would have a blind eye cast in that case...

Basically - you don't need a licence to hunt - as long as you follow a what is called a general licence to the letter. However that involves proving that you have not taken many other non-lethal and specialist services into account. Also you'd need to be able to qualify the requirement vs other methods. I don't see many government officials taking 'I enjoy hunting with a slingshot' excuse - when air-rifles are considered more humane. In fact if you follow the law to the letter - to kill ants you need to hire a specialist ant terminator service... you're not allowed to actually do this yourself. The law says that 'it is unlawful to kill any animal' (at least not without a GL).


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

mattwalt said:


> Romanljc - its still so grey - But the Gov hunting site contradicts itself. Also recently due to illegal hunting 'issues' everything from hunting-gambling to blood-lust - to blatant theft and harvesting of animal 'wealth'. The police have appointed specialist task groups to help manage and are taking a far harder line to offences. At this stage its both illegal and illegal to hunt with a slingshot. So you'd be at the mercy of the individual who prosecutes you. The UK law often seems to do this almost like it allows a certain flexibility due to the offence or something... I don't know.
> 
> I came across a poaching case recently where 2 guys were involved (guns) one for deer the other for a hare. Think the deer got 3 years and the hare 7 months. Though to be fair rabbits and grey squirrel are seen as pests and probably find they would have a blind eye cast in that case...
> 
> Basically - you don't need a licence to hunt - as long as you follow a what is called a general licence to the letter. However that involves proving that you have not taken many other non-lethal and specialist services into account. Also you'd need to be able to qualify the requirement vs other methods. I don't see many government officials taking 'I enjoy hunting with a slingshot' excuse - when air-rifles are considered more humane. In fact if you follow the law to the letter - to kill ants you need to hire a specialist ant terminator service... you're not allowed to actually do this yourself. The law says that 'it is unlawful to kill any animal' (at least not without a GL).


Don't they have kinda of like almost 2 sets of laws in the UK one for city folks and one for the big land owners and farmers .
From what I read if you own farm land the laws are less stricked about owning weapons and to hunting. Provided you do it on your own property 
Is that true ?


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

No actually - thats not the case. To own a gun you need to be able to provide a good reason for it. In the UK (and Europe) this can only be for Sport/Hunting - ANYTHING thats is considered a weapon for offensive or defensive is essentially illegal. Farmers being that they have access to the land and would occasionally require one to shoot pests etc. would have a valid reason to own. As a city dweller - a letter from a farmer saying you were allowed to shoot on their space, or from a gun club would be a valid proof. Not sure about the UK but some EU countries require that you are able to 'reprove' use every 5 years or have to relinquish your guns to the state. Its actually quite easy to own a gun in the UK.

If you have an air-rifle projectiles have to stay within your property - so you may shoot legally in your garden (In many countries you may not shoot within 100m of a road).


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

mattwalt said:


> No actually - thats not the case. To own a gun you need to be able to provide a good reason for it. In the UK (and Europe) this can only be for Sport/Hunting - ANYTHING thats is considered a weapon for offensive or defensive is essentially illegal. Farmers being that they have access to the land and would occasionally require one to shoot pests etc. would have a valid reason to own. As a city dweller - a letter from a farmer saying you were allowed to shoot on their space, or from a gun club would be a valid proof. Not sure about the UK but some EU countries require that you are able to 'reprove' use every 5 years or have to relinquish your guns to the state. Its actually quite easy to own a gun in the UK.
> 
> If you have an air-rifle projectiles have to stay within your property - so you may shoot legally in your garden (In many countries you may not shoot within 100m of a road).


Well asking a farmer to write a letter seems like a pain if you don't know any farmers, You would probably have to pay them for that.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Its only one approach. You could simply join a shooting club. If you're desperate enough to want to own a gun - you also have to be able (or had a good reason) to regularly shoot it - and be able to prove that you in fact are. If not then its gets progressively more difficult.


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## Tremoside (Jul 17, 2013)

Many people including farmers are interested in slingshots. Some of the shooters leave papers in the post box with all the connections and describing what are they looking for (agreement to shoot on the field). As far as I know it works. If you are joining a club you also have the luxury to prove yourself as a reliable and accurate shooter. Good reputation in a group can help to extend connections.

Matt just described it in details!


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## Royleonard (Jun 30, 2017)

All my life I have been hitting targets,either with knives,bullets,or bearings.So it seems strange that a country would not allow that for people who are so inclined and do it safely. I’m not much of a hunter it’s just the freedom to aim and hit a target that I enjoy.My sympathies to anyone who is not allowed that freedom.


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

Royleonard said:


> All my life I have been hitting targets,either with knives,bullets,or bearings.So it seems strange that a country would not allow that for people who are so inclined and do it safely. I'm not much of a hunter it's just the freedom to aim and hit a target that I enjoy.My sympathies to anyone who is not allowed that freedom.


 yea i was thinking the same thing 
We are lucky that the founding fathers feared tyranny of govermemts against there own people and put the right to bare arms in the constitution. And for those that don't know it's not there for hunting or even to stop a crime .
It's there so citizens can defend themselfs from there own goverment if it becomes oppressive.


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## tastetickles (Jul 3, 2017)

Lucky indeed. I was born and still live in a place where the people are suppressed by the government, thankfully the government has been kind so far.


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

Amazed and gratified that so many people have taken the time to contribute to this thread. My own opinion is that, as always, responsibility falls upon the individual to define for themselves the validity of the laws under which they operate. In the UK it is currently 'highly' unlikely that you will be prosecuted for shooting a registered 'pest'' with a slingshot but I can imagine that situation changing on a dime - my response is always fu**k you. I refer to our American cousins and their second amendment [I think that's right?] that allows them to bear arms. Sure, they kill each other a lot, but the PRINCIPAL is right...


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## Hobbit With A Slingshot (Mar 14, 2017)

Murda said:


> Amazed and gratified that so many people have taken the time to contribute to this thread. My own opinion is that, as always, responsibility falls upon the individual to define for themselves the validity of the laws under which they operate. In the UK it is currently 'highly' unlikely that you will be prosecuted for shooting a registered 'pest'' with a slingshot but I can imagine that situation changing on a dime - my response is always fu**k you. I refer to our American cousins and their second amendment [I think that's right?] that allows them to bear arms. Sure, they kill each other a lot, but the PRINCIPAL is right...


Yes, that's the good ol' second amendment that you're thinking of there there. However, if you do a little digging, you'll find that we don't actually kill each other all that much, and that the situation has been very much blown out of proportion for political purposes.


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

Hobbit With A Slingshot said:


> Murda said:
> 
> 
> > Amazed and gratified that so many people have taken the time to contribute to this thread. My own opinion is that, as always, responsibility falls upon the individual to define for themselves the validity of the laws under which they operate. In the UK it is currently 'highly' unlikely that you will be prosecuted for shooting a registered 'pest'' with a slingshot but I can imagine that situation changing on a dime - my response is always fu**k you. I refer to our American cousins and their second amendment [I think that's right?] that allows them to bear arms. Sure, they kill each other a lot, but the PRINCIPAL is right...
> ...





Hobbit With A Slingshot said:


> Yes, that's the good ol' second amendment that you're thinking of there there. However, if you do a little digging, you'll find that we don't actually kill each other all that much, and that the situation has been very much blown out of proportion for political purposes.
> 
> The number of gun murders per capita in the US in 2012 - the most recent year for comparable statistics - was nearly 30 times that in the UK, at 2.9 per 100,000 compared with just 0.1.


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

Murda said:


> Hobbit With A Slingshot said:
> 
> 
> > Murda said:
> ...


Jesus mate, I have no problem with US citizens owning guns - you just need to acknowlege that it comes with a price.


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

Of all the murders in the US in 2012, 60% were by firearm compared with 31% in Canada, 18.2% in Australia, and just 10% in the UK.


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## VAshooter (Feb 10, 2015)

I've lived in the US most of my life excluding a few years spent abroad in the Navy. Most of my time in the US I carried a firearm either concealed or open carry which is legal in Virginia. I grew up in Ohio during the 1950's and I don't know what the gun laws were there but I know that I usually carried a pistol in a holster openly and was never questioned by any adult. I also carried a shotgun to school as did many of my classmates. We would ride the school bus carrying our hunting shotguns and put them in the corner of the classroom during class. During my last two years of high school they changed the rules and we had to take our guns to the principals office for storage during the school day. Little did we know that was the beginning of the "slippery slope" which eventually led to the "gun free zones" we have around schools today. Of course, we had no shootings or gun violence back then. Now we have shootings in schools caused by mentally deranged people who disregard the gun free zones knowing that they won't be challenged.

The problem in America is not that we have guns, we've always had guns. The problem is that there is no law against being crazy and we can't violate the crazy persons civil rights by putting them in protective custody. The same people who want stricter gun laws fight against violating the rights of deranged individuals. Sorry for the rant.


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

We would ride the school bus carrying our hunting shotguns

I don't know, but to me that sounds like a recipe for disaster. At the risk of sounding Liberal [which I am not] the idea of a schoolbus full of armed children seems to me to be a tad too... well, dangerous!

The problem is that there is no law against being crazy

That is, indeed, a problem. Unfortunately the only way for you to be sure that they aren't crazy is for you to vet them personally. Or maybe have a nationally maintained 'Crazy' database. Good luck with that. The problem is that, at this moment, you are sane. But, six months down the line, when your wife has left you for your best friend, when you've lost your job and when your home has been taken away by a greedy amoral bank, you've found yourself on the streets begging for quarters and are in the process of losing whatever is left of your self-respect, you might be thinking of finding the nearest clocktower and raining down your disapproval on innocent passers-by. Who knows? At least the 2nd Amendment says that you can have a Remington to work out your problems...


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## VAshooter (Feb 10, 2015)

Murda said:


> We would ride the school bus carrying our hunting shotguns
> 
> I don't know, but to me that sounds like a recipe for disaster. At the risk of sounding Liberal [which I am not] the idea of a schoolbus full of armed children seems to me to be a tad too... well, dangerous!
> 
> ...


We didn't have problems with gun violence because we were raised to be responsible young adults. As we progressed through school we all knew that if we committed an infraction we would be paddled in class ( every classroom had a large paddle hanging by the door) and then we would get it again when we got home. The paddle wasn't all that bad but the long walk to the front of the class and bending over the teachers desk was very embarrassing and not soon forgotten.


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## VAshooter (Feb 10, 2015)

The guns don't cause problems. I own a full auto silenced MAC 10 in 45 ACP and a full auto UZE in 9 mm. Both are registered with the government and I've paid the $200.00 tax required when you purchase full auto weapons in this country. There are 10's of thousands of full auto weapons distributed around the country and since the 1930's when they were first registered there have been no crimes committed with these registered machine guns. That's not to say that the druggies and gang banger's don't commit crimes with autos they've smuggled into the country or converted from legal weapons but they are criminals anyway and don't obey laws.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Murda actually theRe is evidence that firearm ownership can provide safety. Switzerland has the highest gun access in the world - and one of the safest. In fact Australia and South Africa adopted very strict laws which actually boosted gun related violence.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

An armed society is a polite society.... God made Man, Sam Colt made him equal...

You'll, with further indepth research, find that the vast majority of gun crimes occur within a small minority of the population... and that population exists more in highly gun regulated areas... more so than in areas where gun ownership and carry are far easier to obtain.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Also for the record - have a look at UK's antisocial 'sick' crimes compared to the rest of the world - they are quite shocking.


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

Supporting Vendor









3,337 posts

LocationTexas









































































Posted 27 January 2018 - 09:46 AM

An armed society is a polite society.... God made Man, Sam Colt made him equal...

You'll, with further indepth research, find that the vast majority of gun crimes occur within a small minority of the population... and that population exists more in highly gun regulated areas... more so than in areas where gun ownership and carry are far easier to obtain.

God did not make man. Neither did he make Sam Colt. This is what "further indepth research" has taught me. 'Man' was made by mummy and daddy' having sex -GOD wasn't present.


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

VAshooter said:


> I own a full auto silenced MAC 10 in 45 ACP and a full auto UZE in 9 mm


I am alone in finding that statement extremely scary?


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

mattwalt said:


> Also for the record - have a look at UK's antisocial 'sick' crimes compared to the rest of the world - they are quite shocking.


You seem to misunderstand - this isn't a competition. The UK has as many [if not more] problems as the US regarding murder - I'm just saying that if we were all armed we would definitely have more!!!


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## Hulla Baloo (Nov 25, 2017)




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## VAshooter (Feb 10, 2015)

Murda said:


> mattwalt said:
> 
> 
> > Also for the record - have a look at UK's antisocial 'sick' crimes compared to the rest of the world - they are quite shocking.
> ...


Many people believe that if we were all armed there would be a lot less crime. Your negative attitude towards weapons and self defense scares me a lot more than a man with a gun.


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## Hobbit With A Slingshot (Mar 14, 2017)

Murda, I'm going to build off what VAshooter just said, please just keep in mind that I've not got anything against you.

When it comes down to it, all a firearm of any sort is is just a tool. And tools have no inherant goodness, badness, scariness, lethality, or anything to them in and of themselves, because what *a tool is is defined only by what its user chooses to do with it.* So the idea of a bunch of high school boys taking their shotguns to school with them on the bus shouldn't scare you, or VAShooter's example specifically shouldn't scare you, because each and every single boy on that bus who had a gun knew better than to use it for wrong. There's no point in trying to control, limit, or just plain take a way a tool. *Far better is to teach people correct principles and then let them govern themselves.* The members of this forum are completely self governed when it comes to how they choose to use their slingshots, and all choose--on their own--to use them responsibly (at least as far as I've seen). I see absolutely no reason whatsoever why the same cannot be done with guns, and in many parts of the US that are tolerant of open carry, it is done.

Murda, you may have heard of the prohibition era in the USA during the 1920's-30's, where the federal government tried to ban all alcohol for the sake of curing societal problems related to drunkenness and alcohol addiction. You may have also heard that there were so many people flouting the federal laws banning the sale of alcohol that the feds couldn't do a danged thing: it was like trying to bail a quickly sinking ship with a teaspoon. People were choosing to disobey the law, even though it was put in place for noble reasons, and even though it was, in fact, the law, and not only that but it was enshrined in the highest law of the land (18th amendment to the constitution). All the laws and restrictions in the world won't do a single thing if people choose to disobey them. And people choosing to disobey the law already aren't likely to care about more laws limiting guns, so really all that happens is that the good guys disarm and become sitting ducks. Chicago and Los Angeles both think that gun control is the way to go for safety, and both cities have some of the highest violent crime rates in the nation. Coincidence? I think not.

Sorry if this sounded like a soapbox rant, I've needed to get this off my chest for a while. My main point I was trying to make is that people's choices are the problem, not guns, and proper education can help guide people to make the right choices. If you teach people correct principles, they will figure out how to apply them in whatever situation they find themselves in, should they choose to do so.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

I have lived in a country where you can live and die by the gun and where guns for self defence is totally prohibited. Being handed a 9 cocked and locked to 'keep handy' can be comforting and concerning at the same time.

I think the difference between these kinds of thinking is just paradigm (culture / philosophy etc.). Its proven that areas/countries where guns are the norm - crime is almost zero (everyone knows there's a good chance of being shot if they want to do something stupid). Having no access to them simply means that other weapons become more favourable. However the most dangerous where you have an armed criminal element and a de-armed public...

Guns are used at a distance and easier so they are less 'personal' than many other weapons.

But as mentioned before guns are implements - they are not the cause for killing. Thats people. And it seems that recently people are becoming more 'broken'. Thats the big problem.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

And all this from a question on slingshot design.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Tell me about it. Its just all down to different strokes... Both sides.


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## Royleonard (Jun 30, 2017)

Jolly Roger said:


> And all this from a question on slingshot design.


yes cause it's also about freedom of design and overlaps into what a man can do,imagine some municipality banning metal slingshots.Man makes choices and deals with the consequences.Man should be able to be a responsible individual and protect himself and his loved ones.He is also able to discuss freedoms on forums.


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## VAshooter (Feb 10, 2015)

I like freedom but have known people who are very comfortable living under close supervision and I've noticed

they exhibit signs of stress if there is no one to tell them what to do. I have no desire to influence the life they have chosen but I'm glad to help if someone asks.

Does anyone need help with a slingshot?


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

VAshooter said:


> I like freedom but have known people who are very comfortable living under close supervision and I've noticed
> 
> they exhibit signs of stress if there is no one to tell them what to do. I have no desire to influence the life they have chosen but I'm glad to help if someone asks.
> 
> Does anyone need help with a slingshot?


Your comment is admirable. Help should be made available to those who need it - that's the entire reason for this forum as far as I am concerned.


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

To Bill Hays:

God made Man, Sam Colt made him equal.

Interesting. Never had you pegged as a god-botherer. You are, of course, aware that there is no God? Closet atheists are the worst - they constantly refer to God as their go-to authority when they actually have outgrown their childhood programming but fear to reveal this to the rest of the world. There is no god - only ballistic tables.


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## VAshooter (Feb 10, 2015)

"God made man, Sam Colt made him equal." That sentence was in use more than 100 years ago in the old west of the United States. It is not so much a statement on religion as it is expressing an attitude concerning self defense and the popular pistols made by Colt.


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

VAshooter said:


> "God made man, Sam Colt made him equal." That sentence was in use more than 100 years ago in the old west of the United States. It is not so much a statement on religion as it is expressing an attitude concerning self defense and the popular pistols made by Colt.


Of course. In god we trust.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Murda said:


> To Bill Hays:
> 
> God made Man, Sam Colt made him equal.
> 
> Interesting. Never had you pegged as a god-botherer. You are, of course, aware that there is no God? Closet atheists are the worst - they constantly refer to God as their go-to authority when they actually have outgrown their childhood programming but fear to reveal this to the rest of the world. There is no god - only ballistic tables.


Like VAShooter said... that's a very old statement meant to express a pro right of self defense mindset.

Personally speaking, I try to stay out of religious debates... as I can appreciate and understand both sides of the argument... I've seen things that very well could support either side as well... so I'll just leave it to those who like to argue about it, all the while preferring a more Pascallian approach to the logic of religion... meaning it's preferable to have religion and live your life as if there is an ultimate reward for being good and doing good deeds...


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

One nation under God.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Psalms 14

The Fool Says, There Is No God

To the choirmaster. Of David.

14 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds;
there is none who does good.

2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand,[a]
who seek after God.

3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.

4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers
who eat up my people as they eat bread
and do not call upon the Lord?

5 There they are in great terror,
for God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You would shame the plans of the poor,


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

TBH - don't hold it against Murda for his comment. Being in the UK the average current church-goer is 80+ (and dying out quickly) churches are closing down in alarming numbers across the UK. Originally coming from a God-fearing country its interesting how strongly the church is shunned or mistrusted and by such a large sector. There are like 2 consecutive generations who are totally oblivious or don't care (generalising - and Christian focussed only).


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

Thanks *Mattwalt* for that comment. Clearly religious issues have no real place on a board that is devoted to slingshots. The point is really about whether you regard a slingshot as a tool, an extension of a hobby, or a weapon. If you are inclined to consider a catapult as a weapon [as I am] then it is valid to question where it falls in the spectrum, and therefore laws regarding its use in different countries becomes relevant... which makes the concept of God irrelevant.

My question has to be: is your catapult a weapon? The fact that I can deliver a lead ball at about 220 feet per second at a 20mm target 10m away would seem to argue that it is, indeed, a weapon. If so, should its possession or use be regulated?


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## Royleonard (Jun 30, 2017)

Are hammers,screwdrivers weapons ,tools or extensions of hobbies.Since a hammer can be swung and introduce 2 g’s of blunt force I would argue that it is indeed a weapon.Everything is a weapon with that logic.Maybe it’s the person behind the tool,extension of the hobby that needs to be regulated / monitored as they are the weapon,all other are just tools.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Baseball bat, piece of pipe, 2x4, skillet, kitchen knives, automobiles, two shoe laces with a leather pouch, beer bottles, It is not about the item, it is about the ungodly individuals who choose to harm others due to their depraved minds. We need to cling to our God given right to defend our lives and protect ourselves from those who are doing the Devil's dirty work. The NRA mission is to help us maintain our 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms.............who is going to protect our right to have knives, skillets, baseball bats etc. in our homes? The automobile is pretty high up there on the list of killing machines but since we think we need them so desperately they don't come under fire like our gun rights do.

Do I consider a slingshot a defensive weapon....of course not....I'll depend on my .357 magnum for that. And no matter what any snowflake thinks, I'm not giving up my arsenal. Go ahead, take my slingshots....which no govt. has the right to restrict....but I'll always have my guns.


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## Hobbit With A Slingshot (Mar 14, 2017)

*Pencils*. What about pencils, those sharp wooden spikes that all school kids are supposed to constantly have with them at school, where at least one sharpening device will be provided in every class room to keep them honed razor sharp. I don't know about you, but the idea of arming that many kids with what sounds like poorly disguised shanks, cramming them into a building for 6-8 hours of their day whether or not they want to be there, and then trusting them to behave and respect the adults that they outnumber by about 10 to 1 doesn't sound like the brightest thing a person could do... Oh, and having them carry around a bag filled with bricks books? Yeah, that sounds like a makeshift hammer type weapon to me--complete with premature lower back issues to boot!

On a serious note, how do you propose to actually enforce regulations or bans on slingshots Murda? You'd literally have to ban people's hands, since some smart alecs came up with the bareback style. Really, the government's job isn't to be a perpetual helicopter parent to everybody all the time, and they couldn't do it if they tried. At some point you have to let people make their own choices and let the chips fall where they may, even if that means doling out punishments ex post facto. What's the point of being an "adult" if you need Big Brother always watching you to get you to behave?

Oh, and one last thing... ever heard of martial arts?

:neener:

If you're thinking that your arguments are looking like a Messerschmidt after the battle of Britain, then you ain't wrong there pal....

No offense though. I can see that we will just have to agree to disagree.


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## VAshooter (Feb 10, 2015)

It seems to me that attitudes concerning individual responsibility have changed over the years. When I was young I was taught that crimes like murder and robbery were against the law and I or anyone else who commits these crimes would be arrested and tried by a jury of peers. The method of committing the crime didn't matter. Now it seems that the baseball bat or the pistol is blamed for the crime committed and the person involved is excused for his or her actions.

I don't understand why the press refuses to separate a fully automatic assault rifle and a semi automatic AR 15 sporting rifle or the fact that either one can shoot you but the full auto is capable of wasting a lot of ammunition without hitting anything. The barrels don't last too long if you shoot them full auto. I've owned a number of full auto firearms but I haven't shot them full auto very much. It's too expensive. I'll admit that when you go to the range nothing attracts teen age girls like a Mini Uzi or an FN P90. They will burn up your barrel and all your ammo if you let them.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Yeah... in a country like the UK where everything is restricted (Kitchen knives are banned for public carry BTW - unless they've just been purchased and you're transporting home or can prove they are work related like as a Chef...) and prescripted. It takes away countability from the individual. Sort of its ALWAYS someone else' fault. Do something stupid and fall down - sue the company that created the surface you fell on. In fact changing a light bulb in your own house in the UK is actually not allowed - you need to call a electrician to do this. Most people don't of course - however if there is a fire as a result of that bulb - its on you.

Robbery... LOL. I heard a case where a burglar broke into a house and was attacked by the dog. Went on to successfully sue the owner of the property for injuries inflicted. Reason he won - no beware of the dog sign.

Most countries I've lived in have a - if you're that dumb - then you live with the consequences of your actions.

Would I use a slingshot as a self defence weapon? Yeah as a last ditch... but I'd probably go for a knife first (a follow up shot is going to be fiddly) - If I had a gun I'd way rather use that. But you are only allowed to use sufficient force to prevent an attack...

The question weather rearming a nation of offensive weapons makes sense. I get both sides. In the UK big news would be the weather and when an animal escapes the zoo (gun related shootings are fairly rare). Though our local paper often reported on serious local crime - and those were pretty worrying at best. In fact always needed to make them disappear before the kids came home from school, as they were always upsetting. And that was a quiet tourist village. Would I want a gun to keep my family safe - yes no doubts there. Would I want every single person in the UK have access to guns - not a chance.


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## chuckduster01 (May 30, 2015)

Sure am glad I live in a STAND YOUR GROUND STATE, break a window or kick my door in and enter my house in the middle of the night uninvited and there will only be one result, I am not asking about your intentions or reading your resume at 3am. I'll leave the religious part alone, but how can anyone look up into the night sky, see all them stars twinkling back at you, or look into the innocent eyes of a child or even your dog for that matter and think, that this is all one big accident?


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Murda - fair comment. As a tool it has the ability to inflict harm or even death. Local guy was shot in the in a bar brawl with a catty - only realised a few days later after he started getting ill (infection) and the doctor removed a steel ball from his neck (he'd thought he;'d been punched). A farmer lost a prize cow after it had been shot by two kids and run off and fallen or something... Crossbows and bows are not regulated in the UK - but their use is - I suspect its not far off that catty's will be (in fact subtly are). The Kray's carried one (a Milbro) to help force their points - but also a crossbow and a shotgun.

The issues I believe are. a stick and some elastic bands and you have a powerful weapon. Its so simple anyone could make one. And buying off eBay a decent one is under £15... They're really accessible. Then there are travellers who see the catty as a cultural tool for bringing food home (I have heard the cows shooters got off because that shouted that the police trying to confiscate their catty's was xenophobic). Then the law itself is so ambiguous...

Should they be regulated? - well if you can't regulate the people using them (and lets face it - they aren't always the brightest) or should the law be more specific and heavy handed (and what would the upshot of that be)? Or would it be simpler to simply regulate the device... Seems the simplest solution. I can't see Granny Smith being amused by many of the UK catty hunting videos (and probably has the RSPCA and police on speed dial).

The UK approach to the catty is what has defined its size and shape since they appeared. Small / pocketable / powerful.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Its should really be emphasised that the UK has no gun culture and very little hunting culture - not for generations now. Most kids don't understand that meat comes from animals or milk comes from cows, they believe its made by the shop its bought from (This is fact - schools are trying to teach kids so they understand, and there are many TV shows that are all focussed and creating awareness). Even my daughter who is pretty bright and we've always been open to food origins gets confused from time to time.

The UK as a population is so removed from the food creation process is insane. Think its one of the reason there has been an increased interest in self-reliance.

The upshot however is that firstly - people don't know and understand weapons and how to use them. They don't understand hunting - how to be ethical, best and safe practice...

Generalising of course. But understanding the UK from the outside is pretty much impossible. You simply don't have the context.


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## chuckduster01 (May 30, 2015)

mattwalt said:


> Its should really be emphasised that the UK has no gun culture and very little hunting culture - not for generations now. Most kids don't understand that meat comes from animals or milk comes from cows, they believe its made by the shop its bought from (This is fact - schools are trying to teach kids so they understand, and there are many TV shows that are all focussed and creating awareness). Even my daughter who is pretty bright and we've always been open to food origins gets confused from time to time.
> 
> The UK as a population is so removed from the food creation process is insane. Think its one of the reason there has been an increased interest in self-reliance.
> 
> ...


Not sure I want to even try understanding a place where about 90% of the Police force only carry sticks. I am pretty sure I would cock my head to the side and look like a confused dog during that explanation anyway. :hmm: :what:


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

LOL - yeah its a 'STOP! or I will blow my whistle and tell you to stop again." approach.

I have seen them carry - but not regularly. Portugal ALL of them carry ALWAYS, same in South Africa.

In fact some of the laws are crazy. Believe in an indecent assault case the victim my use ONLY sufficient force to dissuade the attacker - and only until 'the act' begins - after which its considered non aggressive?! Say what...


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## chuckduster01 (May 30, 2015)

Yup, America has it's issues no doubt about it, but I was blessed by GOD to have been born and raised here. We would have a lot less issues if folks would quit trying to fix things that ain't broken though.


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## VAshooter (Feb 10, 2015)

chuckduster01 said:


> Yup, America has it's issues no doubt about it, but I was blessed by GOD to have been born and raised here. We would have a lot less issues if folks would quit trying to fix things that ain't broken though.


You got that right! I think we would be better off if parents paid more attention to their children and what they are being taught in schools today.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

There you go. That is the answer. People are so stupid now that they can't even raise and educate their own children. The government is invested with that job. Which in turn gives the government the ability to indoctrinate and program children into whatever shape and form they wish including how to think and what to think. Children learn early on that their teachers are educated and more knowledgeable than their parents are. When in fact, those who get their teaching credentials are those who don't have what it takes to get a degree in something more substantial.


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## Hobbit With A Slingshot (Mar 14, 2017)

mattwalt said:


> In fact some of the laws are crazy. Believe in an indecent assault case the victim my use ONLY sufficient force to dissuade the attacker - and only until 'the act' begins - after which its considered non aggressive?! Say what...


Can you say "Darwin Award"? :screwy:

JR--I'm constantly grateful that my mother decided to homeschool me. I do not agree with your generalization about those who get teaching degrees though, because my mother got a teaching degree and has been the one homeschooling me for most of my life (she also taught special ed for a couple years before I was born). I think that low pay, being overworked, and trying to teach kids who may not want to be taught have much more to do with it than brains. Teachers absolutely have what it takes to get a degree in "something more substantial"--they just choose to teach instead.


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## tastetickles (Jul 3, 2017)

As a teacher myself I have a bit to share on the teaching profession. I do not know how exactly it is in the states but there isn't really a course or module for a person to take to become a teacher in most countries. Most of the time they get their diploma or degree just like everyone else then they take a teaching certificate so they can teach a subject in their main degree/diploma. So most teachers are indeed capable of acquiring other degrees, etc however once they step into the teaching profession, it seals off any career opportunities they have with their degree as the knowledge gets expired or obsolete after a few years especially for those in the computing industry unless they do part time research while teaching as a lecturer.

I used to hate my job as it was the last resort after being jobless for 2 years after graduating from university. After 10+ years I couldn't leave my job anymore as I'm stuck with an obsolete degree and I have discovered I'm actually happier I have a part in shaping some minds of the future for the better, at least to the best of my capability.


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## Murda (Nov 18, 2017)

Bill Hays said:


> Murda said:
> 
> 
> > To Bill Hays:
> ...


As I am sure you are aware Pascal is most noted (in your understanding) as the atheistic mathematician who, on his deathbed, disavowed his non-belief and declared himself a sinner in need of redemption. It has always been regarded as the ultimate cop-out. Interesting that you would cite his cowardly death-bed recanting as a preference regarding your apprehension of death.

For me, Pascal was a pre-eminent mathematician who was so important that a programming language was named after him - the first programming language I ever learned over twenty years ago. I know that you are from Texas, where infidels are barely tolerated, but you could show some balls and declare what you so obviously know - squirrels don't have souls, rabbits don't have souls, varmints don't have souls and neither do we.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Psalm 14:1 Only the fool says there is no God. In America we actually have a national holiday commemorating atheist. It is April 1 and we call it April's Fool Day.


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## VAshooter (Feb 10, 2015)

I'm beginning to understand why we kicked your countrymen out of America during that past unpleasantness. Nothing like a revolution to set things right.


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## Alfred E.M. (Jul 5, 2014)

*It's Friday night, time for the British troll who's so smart, he's stupid. Buzz off.*


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Murda said:


> As I am sure you are aware Pascal is most noted (in your understanding) as the atheistic mathematician who, on his deathbed, disavowed his non-belief and declared himself a sinner in need of redemption. It has always been regarded as the ultimate cop-out. Interesting that you would cite his cowardly death-bed recanting as a preference regarding your apprehension of death.
> 
> For me, Pascal was a pre-eminent mathematician who was so important that a programming language was named after him - the first programming language I ever learned over twenty years ago. I know that you are from Texas, where infidels are barely tolerated, but you could show some balls and declare what you so obviously know - squirrels don't have souls, rabbits don't have souls, varmints don't have souls and neither do we.


Blaise Pascal was not an atheist... Judging by his writings on the Jesuits and inner vs. outward belief, I'd say he was more of a mix of Protestant and Agnostic...

The indifference of the skeptic, Pascal wrote, is to be overcome by means of the "wager": if God does not exist, the skeptic loses nothing by believing in him; but if he does exist, the skeptic gains eternal life by believing in him.

Pascal insists that men must be brought to God through Jesus Christ alone, because a creature could never know the infinite if Jesus had not descended to assume the proportions of man's fallen state.

This was all written long before his death... so a "death bed" confession or confirmation aside, I'd say it's pretty clear he was definitely in favor of people living as if they believed, rather than the alternative.

As for "Infidels", if you're speaking in an Islamic context, then you'd be wrong... Texas is full of them, me included.

Me... well I suspect my beliefs to be far more prevalent than most would admit to... I don't care about a person's religious beliefs. I don't care about a person's sexual preferences. I don't care if you're short, tall, fat or thin. I don't care if you're black, white, yellow or red...

But I DO care if you come at me with an agenda... proclaiming you or your way is right, and there is no way I know what I'm talking about... that I must accept what you put out there because you're right and that's all there is to it....

If you want to be an atheist... that's fine with me. But don't be shocked if you get a negative reaction when you decide to push it into my face and tell me that what I believe is wrong, simply because you approach the subject with a closed mind and attitude... especially when I've never tried to do the same to anybody else, ever.

This is my last post on this religious matter... my personal beliefs are exactly that, personal.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

You know. Religion is one of the most difficult understandings to try and shift. If not bordering on the impossible. We have raged wars on each other for differences in beliefs for centuries - even within the same belief system...

To try and force someone that their belief is incorrect is a risky proposition.

The only country so far I have lived where there seems to be a happy co-existance racially and religiously is Portugal. They were run by the Moors for centuries (until they had managed a return favour from some English crusaders) - however after they were defeated they lived in harmony together. And still do. It also means they are very accepting of difference. Though to be fair we have noticed a slight shift in the last year or so (think its due to immigrants taking advantage and a subtle lost of national identity).

Its best lest Religious and Race discussions to the Sunday Tabloids. We're about Slingshots after all.


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