# To Twist or not to Twist



## bread (Apr 11, 2016)

I am in my first month of shooting slingshots and still experimenting around my aiming technique. I was watching Bill Hays and a few others. It looks like the majority don't rotate the pouch. I started out rotating the pouch and did alright, but after holding the pouch with my thumb on top, I am shooting better. I am still waffling back and forth between closing one eye or not. It seems I can see my tubes lining up better with one eye... How do you all aim concerning the pouch twist? I also changed from the hammer grip to whatever the grip is called when you use mostly your forefinger and thumb. Oh, by the way, I shoot through the forks in the gangster style.


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## BC-Slinger (Jan 6, 2013)

I do not like doing anything to the pouch but having it nice and straight. I also keep both eyes open as I find one eye shooting gives my depth perception a big loss, and I cannot hit targets as well.

That is just my opinion though. You will have to try a bunch of setups, and methods to find what clicks with you and your style. If you always shoot tubes you may want to try flat bands as they are what most target shooters use. Not that tubes are bad I just find that flats are easier to set up and I do well with them myself.

JMHO

Cheers

Matt.K.M aka BC-SLinger :king:


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## ol'school42 (Feb 13, 2016)

Yo Bread from Sac,

I'm not the guru you're looking for but I thought the only time to half twist your pouch was when shooting a PFS (pickle fork slingshot) but I may be wrong. You're using what's called a 'pinch grip'. Have you gone to the shooting part of the forum? I think you can glean some great tips there but the deal is... find yourself using a solid stance, anchor point and if you feel the one eye works for you after you... practice, Practice, PRACTICE and then practice using the same form each time you will figure it out. You're using gangta and thumb on top... sound right to me. SAFETY GLASSES or ya may just have one eye to use.


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## pult421 (Aug 13, 2015)

I always give the pouch a twist. No tweak though. I dont shoot pickle forks. I find it allows my thumbnail to sit on the jaw bone when anchored. The pouch just releases and turns back i guess. Never slow moed it. I shoot gangster ott and otf


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## Northerner (Nov 9, 2010)

I twist pouch 90*... gangsta style... anchor on various parts of my ear, depending on shooting distance... look down bands/tubes and line up with target... use top corner of upper fork to aim... both eyes open.


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

Twist or no twist . They both work well . I have done both ways . I'm currently twisting 90 degrees . The thumb nail towards the face.


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## JTslinger (Jan 26, 2015)

For TTF, I do not twist. If I'm shooting OTT with flats, no twist. If I'm shooting tubes or looped tubes OTT, I twist.


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

If you shoot half or full butterfly like I do then you have to twist because of ergonomics. In all my years of shooting I have never attributed any problems I have had to the twist. I'd say do what feels good.

winnie


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## truthornothing (May 18, 2015)

90 degree twist thumbnail in corner of mouth. Works great


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## Blue Raja (Feb 10, 2016)

What truthornothing said. I am new to all this, so take my advice relative to my limited experience. Also, I am shooting 40 gn. flechettes from a Trumark WS1 with #64 rubber bands chained 2-2-1-1-1 on Gypsy tabs. So, kind of an unusual and unforgiving setup. But, I like it and it is a good way to practice form. I hold the forks "gangsta style" and twist the pouch so that the top of my hand and wrist face up and my thumbnail is in the corner of my mouth.

When my form collapses, the flechettes don't go even near the target. Good form and I hit the target. Instant feedback.

Have fun and remember to wear your goggles.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

bread said:


> I am in my first month of shooting slingshots and still experimenting around my aiming technique. I was watching Bill Hays and a few others. It looks like the majority don't rotate the pouch. I started out rotating the pouch and did alright, but after holding the pouch with my thumb on top, I am shooting better. I am still waffling back and forth between closing one eye or not. It seems I can see my tubes lining up better with one eye... How do you all aim concerning the pouch twist? I also changed from the hammer grip to whatever the grip is called when you use mostly your forefinger and thumb. Oh, by the way, I shoot through the forks in the gangster style.


Yeah... you can twist, bend, keep it straight or do whatever.... for everyone there's going to be something that works best for them.

For me, over the last 6 years, shooting with my thumb in the up position was my prefered shooting style, and I've been more accurate using that style than with any other.... BUT, due to bad decisions when I was younger, I've had to switch shooting styles to accommodate for an old injury that just kept getting worse...

About a year ago I had to switch from thumb up to thumb down style... and it's taken me since then to get about 95% as good as I was thumb up.... and hopefully by the time of the tournaments, I'll be a lot closer to 100%...

The point being... pick a style that fits you best... but if you have to switch... the road to getting to where you want to be may be long and hard!


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## BC-Slinger (Jan 6, 2013)

Been trying the twist today. I have found it to work just as well as the non twist and thumb straight up. So i guess it really is whatever you prefer and use regularly. I might start the twist just so I can have a easier way to keep a static anchor point a little harder to do with the thumb straight up. I will have to play around a bit more.

Cheers

Matt.K.M aka BC-Slinger


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## Genoa Slingshot (Oct 29, 2015)

I twist 90° with thumb straight on my face.
Agree with who says each style is good, just to find what works well with you.
Even I tried half-butterfly with either thumb up and thumb down and noticed both styles work well.


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## Frenchieboy (Apr 11, 2016)

As a novice I am still learning an awful lot through reading the topics and threads on this forum and I have tried both.

When using my Pickle Fork I twist the pouch 90 degrees. I have found that I have had a few shots go off in strange directions (No doubt a fault in my technique or the fact that I tried trimming down the width of the pouch a little) Most of the time I am fairly consistent and accurate using a twist with the PFSS.

If shooting OTT with my "naturals" I do not twist the pouch as it gives me an easier aiming line looking down the bands.

I shoot "gangsta style" with both and use a set point on the side of my jaw as an anchor point and fire either 8mm or 9.5 ball bearings.

I am now at the point where I am thinking of trying a pouch as shown in this video, any thoughts?


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## bread (Apr 11, 2016)

Frenchieboy, that looks like a great way to center a ball of a certain size, but I use various sizes of ammo. If I settle one one size and it turns out to be round ball, I'll use that technique. Thanks for sharing that video!


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## Frenchieboy (Apr 11, 2016)

Here's another video I've just found and watched by Gamekeeper John about "To twist or not to twist" which might be of interest to some of you.


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## bread (Apr 11, 2016)

Thanks, Frenchieboy. I didn't realize the purpose of the twist was to avoid forkhits. Good to know! I changed over from twisting because it felt more comfortable not to twist.


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## Frenchieboy (Apr 11, 2016)

bread said:


> Thanks, Frenchieboy. I didn't realize the purpose of the twist was to avoid forkhits. Good to know! I changed over from twisting because it felt more comfortable not to twist.


Even though I am still a novice and have an awful lot to learn I'm sure that I think the same as most of the "established" members of this forum - If we can help fellow members out we ought to try!


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## bread (Apr 11, 2016)

By the way Frenchieboy, that's a cool bird you have there! I assume you hunt together?


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## Frenchieboy (Apr 11, 2016)

bread said:


> By the way Frenchieboy, that's a cool bird you have there! I assume you hunt together?


Yes, we used to hunt together on a regular basis. She was a (Quite Large) Female Harris Hawk and was great at taking rabbits for me. She would happily hunt over ferrets all day long. Unfortunately I don't have her or anywhere to keep a bird of prey any longer, but given the opportunity I would happily have another Harris Hawk as long as I could train it myself right from the start.


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## Chuck Daehler (Mar 17, 2015)

Twist is used more I think for OTT frames than TTF ones. I have never seen any reason to twist the pouch using a TTF frame. The idea or shall we say "theory" (disproven in the video below) of the twist is to, according to some, encourage the pouch to go OVER the frame rather than through it and since I switched to TTF wide deep forgiving forks at that, I don't twist. In the video below this rumor is dispelled.

Tweek means to produce what Charles says to avoid and that is a "speed bump" effect, where the pouch is bent downward in a pinch grip of it, so when the pouch exists the thumb/forefinger grip it pops UP sort of, and that also encourages the pouch and ball to go over the forks. This I haven't seen in slo mo videos so I don't know the validity of it. Charles states and rightly that the speed bump grip adversely affects accuracy and I 2nd that motion...because it's hard to produce the speed bump exactly the same each shot...and consistency is the key word to accuracy.

If you watch the following video you will see that a twisted pouch suddenly and quickly rights itself in just a few centimeters of release, meaning that twist has NO EFFECT at all...at least in the slow motion videos. Personally I think, due to the proof of the video below, that the twist thing is a bunch of rhetoric and theory rather than pracital fact...judge for yourself in the slo mo vid posted below.






At 0:27 you will see that the twist is straightened almost immediately and has no lasting effect at all...and the next shot also demos this.

Note also the ball is actually released from the pouch a bit before the pouch gets to the forks.

Note also the bands do not contract smoothly, rather in ripples. If the bands meet with a lot of congestion it adversely affects accuracy by affecting the path of the pouch somewhat.

Nothing beats slo mo for dispelling rhetoric, rumors and ruse.


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## Ibojoe (Mar 13, 2016)

I shoot one of Gary's dimpled pouches. Love it. Super easy to shoot! Sells them on eBay. You'll like!!!!


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## Resigned User (Jul 4, 2015)

Useful or not... I always twist the pouch... I don't care if the shot will be more or less accurate ... I'm more comfy when I twist the pouch...

Inviato dal mio M-PP2S500B utilizzando Tapatalk


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## peppermack (Dec 10, 2013)

I shoot sideways, full butterfly, no twist. I find it pretty comfortable, I was taught the way I hold the pouch by MJ last year at ECST.


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## Rip-van-Winkelholz (May 7, 2015)

treefork said:


> Twist or no twist . They both work well . I have done both ways . I'm currently twisting 90 degrees . The thumb nail towards the face.


I changed my twist now to 90 degrees. Its better then 180 degrees for me.

Thanks Treefork!



Rip


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

I twist naturally on OTT because it just feels natural as a sideshooter.

I think the twist must do something on PFS because it absolutely made a difference in fork hits for me.

I do not do the tweak. PFSshooter must be able to duplicate the same tweak every time. And he also shoots mostly at short range from his videos.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Hey Chuck, you seem to be the resident scientist here, have you ever written on the boards about how slingshots are "powered" by entropy? I'd love to read a post by you on the subject.

I don't mean to derail this thread...


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## Rip-van-Winkelholz (May 7, 2015)

Chuck Daehler said:


> Twist is used more I think for OTT frames than TTF ones. I have never seen any reason to twist the pouch using a TTF frame. The idea or shall we say "theory" (disproven in the video below) of the twist is to, according to some, encourage the pouch to go OVER the frame rather than through it and since I switched to TTF wide deep forgiving forks at that, I don't twist. In the video below this rumor is dispelled.
> 
> Tweek means to produce what Charles says to avoid and that is a "speed bump" effect, where the pouch is bent downward in a pinch grip of it, so when the pouch exists the thumb/forefinger grip it pops UP sort of, and that also encourages the pouch and ball to go over the forks. This I haven't seen in slo mo videos so I don't know the validity of it. Charles states and rightly that the speed bump grip adversely affects accuracy and I 2nd that motion...because it's hard to produce the speed bump exactly the same each shot...and consistency is the key word to accuracy.
> 
> ...


Thanks Chuck, very nice vid at sunday afternoon.

Like Sport Illustrated.



Rip


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## Flatband (Dec 18, 2009)

When shooting Gangsta regular draw (to cheek),thumbnail is vertical against cheek. When shooting Butterfly,thumbnail is facing down parallel to ground and to frame. So I guess you can say the pouch is twisted when I shoot regular cheek draw because pouch is 90 degrees in relation to the frame. Never thought much about it to be truthful. I know it really makes a difference turning the pouch when you shoot "pickle forks". That was proven by DGUI- an excellent shooter.


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## brucered (Dec 30, 2015)

I just make sure my pouch is vertical to whatever frame I am using and whatever hold style using. So if I am shooting with the frame in an upright position, my pouch is too. If I'm shooting with the frame at a 45* angle, then my pouch is too.

I don't shoot Pickle.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Flatband said:


> When shooting Gangsta regular draw (to cheek),thumbnail is vertical against cheek. When shooting Butterfly,thumbnail is facing down parallel to ground and to frame. So I guess you can say the pouch is twisted when I shoot regular cheek draw because pouch is 90 degrees in relation to the frame. Never thought much about it to be truthful. I know it really makes a difference turning the pouch when you shoot "pickle forks". That was proven by DGUI- an excellent shooter.


I think because the bands have so little space between them on pickle fork they may not produce the instant righting effect shown in this video.

Anyway. Glad to know the twist has little effect on accuracy, at least for "regular" frames.


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## BC-Slinger (Jan 6, 2013)

After playing with the 90 degree twist and the thumb straight up and no twist. I am still on the boat with the thumb straight up for gangsta style just feels more natural for me and my groupings seem tighter.

Cheers

Matt.K.M aka BC-Slinger


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## Volp (Aug 25, 2014)

I twist the pouch...90 degrees.

Volp


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

BC-Slinger said:


> After playing with the 90 degree twist and the thumb straight up and no twist. I am still on the boat with the thumb straight up for gangsta style just feels more natural for me and my groupings seem tighter.
> 
> Cheers
> Matt.K.M aka BC-Slinger


I will definitely shoot no twist when I finally get a TTF. I just need GAMEKEEPER JOHN to release the damn Nylon PPSG *GIGANTIC POKE!* since the steel sold out.


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## BC-Slinger (Jan 6, 2013)

inconvenience said:


> BC-Slinger said:
> 
> 
> > After playing with the 90 degree twist and the thumb straight up and no twist. I am still on the boat with the thumb straight up for gangsta style just feels more natural for me and my groupings seem tighter.
> ...


I would highly suggest trying both the 90 degree twist and the straight pouch and thumb up technique. Treefork,Volp and several very high level shooters use that method and make it look awesome. It is all based on the shooter I just personally find the thumb up and straight pouch to work for my needs.

As for game keeper frames the PPSG is sold on this website in several metals http://www.milbroproshotuk.com/Catapults-And-Slingshots/Worldwide-Slingshots

PPMG is a better fork IMO

Hope this helps you out Inconvenience

Cheers

Matt.K.M aka BC-Slinger


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

BC-Slinger said:


> inconvenience said:
> 
> 
> > BC-Slinger said:
> ...


Holy s*** dude. According to his videos they were sold out and he wasn't going to be making any more. I'm almost 44 but I still get a little money for my birthday so I think the aluminum PPSG will be my first dedicated TTF. I can tell just from the looks of it that it's super easy on the wrist. You made my night man!


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## BC-Slinger (Jan 6, 2013)

inconvenience said:


> BC-Slinger said:
> 
> 
> > inconvenience said:
> ...


The PPMG is better for in general shooting as I have heard a lot of people complain about fork hits on the PPSG frame. The PPMG was made as kind of a upgraded version of it as it is deeper and wider fork. For ease of slinging. I personally never have shot one but I would invest in the PPMG JMHO. Check Gamekeepers video on his youtube about it he kind of eludes to it being a better upgraded frame as well but he sells both so he didnt try to trash the PPSG.

Cheers

Matt.K.M aka BC-Slinger


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

BC-Slinger said:


> inconvenience said:
> 
> 
> > BC-Slinger said:
> ...


Thanks man. That looks way better. It looks like the ideal combination of wide & low fork and great grip in a compact frame. It isn't the prettiest frame but functionally it looks almost ideal.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Side shooter here. Yesterday started shooting knuckles up straight pouch. Aiming got a little easier without the slight band twist.

Will still twist pouch on PFS.


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## Zachary Fowler (Mar 7, 2016)

Cool never tried a twist my self, gong to have to try that


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

inconvenience said:


> Side shooter here. Yesterday started shooting knuckles up straight pouch. Aiming got a little easier without the slight band twist.
> 
> Will still twist pouch on PFS.


Wow. I can't beleive what a difference knuckles up straight pouch is having on my shooting. I'm not just slightly better at aiming but I can really lean back and stretch those bands out. I don't butterfly yet so this makes a big difference in power.


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## rowbow (Jul 12, 2021)

I know this is a little late in this conversation on twist, but have you tried doing a draw simulation without the forks, with the pouch grip turn the thumb up, then turn the nail towards the face, then turn the nail down, which is more comfortable, stick with less strain on the wrist equals less stain in the shot.


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## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

I have always shot with a twist but recently stopped and I'm using a pinch grip with the thumbnail up and right next to/underneath my earlobe. My thumb is in direct alignment with the rubber and the fork/rubber attachment as it is pulled back and my accuracy has increased. My thumb is holding the ball just past/on the side my second joint on my index finger as I hold the slingshot gangsta style.

I have been using flats and my Daisy F-16 with this method and I'm very, very happy with it so far !

wll


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