# Seeking understanding...and there's a prize!



## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

OK...this has been puzzling me for ages. I've asked a few people without getting any further than 'well I understand why...but can't put it into words'.

It's this. I find that there is a very significant difference (for me at least) in drawing slingshots and slingbows with the same tubes. Given tubes of the same kind (usually Theratube); the same length tubes ; the same draw length...I find it more difficult drawing as a slinggshot than I do as a slingbow...with a commensurate difference in accuracy. What feels like a tough draw as a catty is a comfortable pull as a slingbow.

WHY FFS ?! In fact it 'should' be the other way round for with the SS I have an easy to grip pouch with a big fat chunk of lead inside...with the slingbow I'm having to grip a cord wrap between the arrow's fletching and the nock.

I even tend to use the same draw style as recent videos show.

So I thought I'd open it up for you wise folk to help me understand. I'm offering one of my slingbows as a prize for the best answer.... i.e. the one that makes sense to me ! It's a good shooter and modestly powered.

I'll leave it open for a month and then pick the winner...SOMEONE MUST KNOW !!!


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

its sort of like the rope and pulley method. when you shoot the arrow your arm is the rope and the cord wrap is the pulley. when you use it as a slingshot, your gripping the whole thing with your fingers, losing the advantage. its like this, when pulling a heavy object on the floor its easier to pull it with a rug underneath to pull it by than it is to hug it and pull it towards you. da mn, i think i just confused the he'll out of me, but it still made sense to me. im guessing, that like in archery, your cord acts as one of them string pullers, easier to pull it with a lil device than to grip the string and arrow. . . . .  . . :iono: i tried. :rofl:


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## harpersgrace (Jan 28, 2010)

My best guess would be that the arrow, rest, grip provide a more stable platform and a more comfortable draw.


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## GrayWolf (May 14, 2012)

I think its because with the arrow in the equation,your focus is on keeping the arrow in place. With the slingshot all focus falls on the pull. Just a thought.

Todd


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

The only thing I can think of is if the forks are further apart I would expect the pull to be easier. Theoretically a slingshot with closer forks and the same bands will be harder to pull (and slightly more powerful) than wider forks. Imagine your tubes on forks 40mm apart. They will pull to length a good deal easier. In a sense, you are lengthening the lever-arm as you widen the forks.

winnie


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

Ruthie, To add to the above:

Remember the old right angle triangle from geometry. In this case the hypotenuse (the band) stays the same but sides a and b change as you widen the forks. Let's make the length from the fork to the center of the arrow "a" and "b" the length from the center of the fork to the pouch. The longer "a" is the shorter "b" becomes so you don't pull the arrow back as far and "a" becomes the longer lever-arm that helps the draw.

Of course, if both your slingshot and slingbow are the same width than my theory goes to pot.


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## BCLuxor (Aug 24, 2010)

Slingbow pulled with your fingers hence the old englsh V for F off to show your draw fingers are still present and you remain a threat. And ball is pinch grip. ( Basically better grip with the fingers wrapped round the cord gives much greater pull on the bands)


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## Vetryan15 (Feb 7, 2013)

Wouldn't it b more along the lines. That the ammo is what is making the diffrence? The shapes r different. Weights I am sure r different. If u r using the same technique to shoot. That's what I think


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Do you draw them the same way? I noticed in your slingbow video that you start with the draw hand back and push the slingshot away, as I understand you're supposed to do with a bow. When you shoot it as a slingshot with round ammo do you start with the slingshot forward and draw the ammo back? If so then I would think that's the reason.


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## PorkChopSling (Jan 17, 2013)

I'm going to say it is kind of like driving (slingbow) or flying ( slingshot). With driving you are on a road with lines all you need to do is push on the gas and adjust the steering wheel so your going between the lines, so arrow and arrow rest like four wheels on the ground and pouch is your steering wheel. With slingshots is like flying especially if your aiming (verses instective which I equate it more to hang gliding less instruments involved) but mentally and physical there is more involved. You have more points of centering involved in aiming in the air and no road (arrow) as a guide. So althought your anchoring point is the same, it's always alittle off, it's like drawing a straight line with or without a ruler or shooting a rifle with a bipod or without. All of which effects your pull and aim. I hope this helps.


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## f00by (May 18, 2010)

I tend to agree with the majority here.

May be a mixture of a couple things. The arrow probably does add some stability to the draw. On top of that the focus when drawing a ball vs arrow is different. Mentally, the arrow may seem easier due to the support given at the front.

Can you pretent to be drawing an arrow the next time you shoot. Try and forget that you are shooting a slingshot and imagine the arrow in place?


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## flipgun (Nov 14, 2012)

Longer tubes on the slingbow.


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## Dr J (Apr 22, 2013)

Physics, leverage. If you have a very tight nut and you try to turn it with a short arm wrench it is difficult. Put a bit of pipe over that handle and the nut is easily moved Ruthie. It is just a matter of leverage, and you can say that I said so.


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## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

Dr J said:


> Physics, leverage. If you have a very tight nut and you try to turn it with a short arm wrench it is difficult. Put a bit of pipe over that handle and the nut is easily moved Ruthie. It is just a matter of leverage, and you can say that I said so.


The trouble is Dr J that the leverage seems to be identical in both cases...I have been looking at the vids of shooting both and the muscle movements and angles seem identical


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## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

flipgun said:


> Longer tubes on the slingbow.


I'm afraid they're almost identical...In fact on the slingbow there's a degree of pseudotapering from the short bunny ears


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## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

f00by said:


> I tend to agree with the majority here.
> 
> May be a mixture of a couple things. The arrow probably does add some stability to the draw. On top of that the focus when drawing a ball vs arrow is different. Mentally, the arrow may seem easier due to the support given at the front.
> 
> Can you pretent to be drawing an arrow the next time you shoot. Try and forget that you are shooting a slingshot and imagine the arrow in place?


That's an interesting thought...I'll look at that


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## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

PorkChopSling said:


> I'm going to say it is kind of like driving (slingbow) or flying ( slingshot). With driving you are on a road with lines all you need to do is push on the gas and adjust the steering wheel so your going between the lines, so arrow and arrow rest like four wheels on the ground and pouch is your steering wheel. With slingshots is like flying especially if your aiming (verses instective which I equate it more to hang gliding less instruments involved) but mentally and physical there is more involved. You have more points of centering involved in aiming in the air and no road (arrow) as a guide. So althought your anchoring point is the same, it's always alittle off, it's like drawing a straight line with or without a ruler or shooting a rifle with a bipod or without. All of which effects your pull and aim. I hope this helps.


I'm going to have a really good think about this one


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## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

M.J said:


> Do you draw them the same way? I noticed in your slingbow video that you start with the draw hand back and push the slingshot away, as I understand you're supposed to do with a bow. When you shoot it as a slingshot with round ammo do you start with the slingshot forward and draw the ammo back? If so then I would think that's the reason.


I think the style is very similar between the two. Which makes it all the more puzzling


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## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

BCluxor said:


> Slingbow pulled with your fingers hence the old englsh V for F off to show your draw fingers are still present and you remain a threat. And ball is pinch grip. ( Basically better grip with the fingers wrapped round the cord gives much greater pull on the bands)


This one would have been spot on...unfortunately I don't draw in the usual way..the archer's way. I wrap the base of the arrow with cord and grip the arrow there just the same as I grip the pouch of the slingshot


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## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

Winnie said:


> Ruthie, To add to the above:
> Remember the old right angle triangle from geometry. In this case the hypotenuse (the band) stays the same but sides a and b change as you widen the forks. Let's make the length from the fork to the center of the arrow "a" and "b" the length from the center of the fork to the pouch. The longer "a" is the shorter "b" becomes so you don't pull the arrow back as far and "a" becomes the longer lever-arm that helps the draw.
> 
> Of course, if both your slingshot and slingbow are the same width than my theory goes to pot.


great theory but I'm afraid the fork width is the same


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## Viper010 (Apr 21, 2012)

I think porkchop nailed it. I was going to say something similar but couldn't phrase it so succinctly.

Sadlying this puts me out of the competition, because I have nothing original to ad.

Good luck with your quest Ruthy. Btw, that slingbow looks really awesome.

Cheers, Remco


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## Tube_Shooter (Dec 8, 2012)

For me its down to the arrow adding stability just like a wrist brace,think of this if you try to draw a bow without a arrow rest you'd find it very difficult,now I believe (and its just my belief ) you'd balance the slingshot like the slingbow by adding stability,of course I may be totally wrong as I have been many many times :rofl:


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## dannytsg (Jun 16, 2013)

I think personally from my point of view that it actually comes down t the ammunition being used as opposed to the way you are drawing. Let me explain:

With a slingshot you generally fire a round projectile which when loaded is self contained within the pouch. The only connection that the ammunition has to the fork is via the rubber. In order for the ammo to be shot accurately your body must be able to draw and hold the elastic as always but you will find there is a propensity for the drawn arm to "wander or wobble" under the elastic strain.

With a slingbow your arrow is also shot from a pouch or knock BUT the arrow still has a physical connection to the frame via your rest/whisker biscuit/brush which helps solidify the position the bands are in when drawn. This extra support on the point end of the arrow ensures that your draw is typical every time, as the arrow must rest on the brush/rest in order for you to release the shot and the arrow to be stable.

This physical connection between pouch/arrow/frame/rest ensures that you draw is exact time after time and you have the same length of draw to your anchor, whereas with a slingshot the draw back is stabilised by your own form as opposed to the physical connection. I have found that if I spend a day on the SlingBow and then swap to a SS, it takes me a while to adjust my form to compensate for the lack of inherent stability in the slingshot platform.

That's my theory on it anyway, I hope that is understandable.

ATB

Dan


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## tradspirit (Jul 23, 2012)

In my opinion, the arrow provides a more linear alignment of your drawing arm, the missle and the target. It also provides a quick check on the tension applied to the bands based on forcing you to draw to a specific length. You are likely (perhaps unintentially) lining up on the arrow as an aide to your aiming process and as such can more appropriately apply back tension for a better release. The arrow precludes any issues that might be prevalent shot to shot with a steel ball pinched in a pouch, and prevents any issues with improper/assymetric band alignment that can make the best of us misplace a well intended shot with a normal sling. I have found that when I applied my learned shooting process/style with my longbow to the shooting of my slingshots, my accuracy improved with the sling. Back tension is critical to accuracy when there is a push/pull process required for the release of the missle.


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## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

Oh it does seem that a comprehensible consensus is emerging that has a solid ring of truth to it. This is great. And an immediate effect is that I shall accept my limitations and not expect to perform well on the slingshot using the same rubber as feels good on the slingbow. This is a choice made easier by the arrival of a wonderful parcel of latex tubes and bands from a friend in the USA. I shall have a wonderful time finding my ideal combination.

This is the first rebanding with tapered Linatex which feels great to shoot


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## libel (Jul 1, 2013)

Draw both setups without ammo. Use a hook or a loop of some sort to make it easier. See if the pull feels the same. Then come back for more.


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## KITROBASKIN (May 20, 2013)

Using gymnastic rings with the rings low to the ground, but not touching the ground (of course), perform numerous push-ups. Notice how you must use auxiliary muscles to stabilize yourself on the rings in order to complete the push-up. It is much more of a challenge. Compare that with a standard push-up on the ground. Perhaps this is an exaggerated example of what is happening with the extra stability derived from that pouch to frame "connection" on the slingbow.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

All I can see from the videos is that the slingbow has a resting point which causes a seemingly very smooth release. I am impressed with your form with the slingbow. Nice.


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## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

libel said:


> Draw both setups without ammo. Use a hook or a loop of some sort to make it easier. See if the pull feels the same. Then come back for more.


Now that was interesting (if puzzling). I did as you suggested. The slingbow felt a distinctly harder pull than the SS. I suppose it ought to do as, though of the same overall length, the slingbow is pseudotapered by the short bunny ears for part of its length. But, as soon as I put ammo in, I feel less in control of the SS...and the slingbow feels perfect ! 

I will attach a pic of the two together together with their ammo in case it is helpful. The oval leads are 38 grammes . The arrow is 40" in the shaft (with a further 4" of steel at the end). That one weighs 107 grammes.


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## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

dgui said:


> All I can see from the videos is that the slingbow has a resting point which causes a seemingly very smooth release. I am impressed with your form with the slingbow. Nice.


Praise from you Maestro is something I shall cherish !!


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## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

KITROBASKIN said:


> Using gymnastic rings with the rings low to the ground, but not touching the ground (of course), perform numerous push-ups. Notice how you must use auxiliary muscles to stabilize yourself on the rings in order to complete the push-up. It is much more of a challenge. Compare that with a standard push-up on the ground. Perhaps this is an exaggerated example of what is happening with the extra stability derived from that pouch to frame "connection" on the slingbow.


Yes, I take your point. The gym doesn't have those rings but I was very aware of the point that you make when I switched my incline dumbell press from together to alternate so that, in effect, each arm had to struggle for itself.


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## dannytsg (Jun 16, 2013)

Further to my previous post I also think it has something to do with the aiming aspect of shooting with a slingshot and slingbow. With a slingshot you are general using a full sight picture and aiming instinctively due to the lack of general aiming sights. This in my opinnion has a bearing on how you draw and hold your shot as whilst drawn you are having to make instinctive adjustments to ensure you are shooting the right way.

With a slingbow you can generally shoot it where you point it due to the length of the arrow being indicative of you target acquirement. This must also have an effect on the stability of your draw.


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## Jaximus (Jun 1, 2013)

I think the shave brush on your slingbow is magic.


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## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

dannytsg said:


> I think personally from my point of view that it actually comes down t the ammunition being used as opposed to the way you are drawing. Let me explain:
> 
> With a slingshot you generally fire a round projectile which when loaded is self contained within the pouch. The only connection that the ammunition has to the fork is via the rubber. In order for the ammo to be shot accurately your body must be able to draw and hold the elastic as always but you will find there is a propensity for the drawn arm to "wander or wobble" under the elastic strain.
> 
> ...





tradspirit said:


> In my opinion, the arrow provides a more linear alignment of your drawing arm, the missle and the target. It also provides a quick check on the tension applied to the bands based on forcing you to draw to a specific length. You are likely (perhaps unintentially) lining up on the arrow as an aide to your aiming process and as such can more appropriately apply back tension for a better release. The arrow precludes any issues that might be prevalent shot to shot with a steel ball pinched in a pouch, and prevents any issues with improper/assymetric band alignment that can make the best of us misplace a well intended shot with a normal sling. I have found that when I applied my learned shooting process/style with my longbow to the shooting of my slingshots, my accuracy improved with the sling. Back tension is critical to accuracy when there is a push/pull process required for the release of the missle.





dannytsg said:


> Further to my previous post I also think it has something to do with the aiming aspect of shooting with a slingshot and slingbow. With a slingshot you are general using a full sight picture and aiming instinctively due to the lack of general aiming sights. This in my opinnion has a bearing on how you draw and hold your shot as whilst drawn you are having to make instinctive adjustments to ensure you are shooting the right way.
> 
> With a slingbow you can generally shoot it where you point it due to the length of the arrow being indicative of you target acquirement. This must also have an effect on the stability of your draw.





PorkChopSling said:


> I'm going to say it is kind of like driving (slingbow) or flying ( slingshot). With driving you are on a road with lines all you need to do is push on the gas and adjust the steering wheel so your going between the lines, so arrow and arrow rest like four wheels on the ground and pouch is your steering wheel. With slingshots is like flying especially if your aiming (verses instective which I equate it more to hang gliding less instruments involved) but mentally and physical there is more involved. You have more points of centering involved in aiming in the air and no road (arrow) as a guide. So althought your anchoring point is the same, it's always alittle off, it's like drawing a straight line with or without a ruler or shooting a rifle with a bipod or without. All of which effects your pull and aim. I hope this helps.


I think that between you, you guys have arrived at an understanding that seems to make sense.

Thank you for this as it has been bugging me.

What I propose is this. To give it another week and then, unless some Einstein has come up with a different answer that makes better sense, I shall put these respondents' names into a hat and pick a winner.

AND THANK YOU ALL ...it is great to be part of a community like this in which we help one another !


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## Jaximus (Jun 1, 2013)

That sounds as likely as anything I could come up with, Ruthie. I spent some time analyzing the videos you posted (only about 300 replays. You're mesmerizing) and your body mechanics appear to be the same in both videos. I was thinking it had something to do with the arrow augmenting your stability before I even read everyone else's replies and that really does seem to be the consensus. I'm still pulling for magic shave brush, though.


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## PorkChopSling (Jan 17, 2013)

Yes I have to agree the shaving brush is very magical!! It is a most amazing find and genius in its use. And, Ruthie it is a privilege and a pleasure to be of assistance, most of the time I just get blank or funny looks from people when I try to explain things, I'm either too short or too long winded. As is life


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## libel (Jul 1, 2013)

ruthiexxxx said:


> libel said:
> 
> 
> > Draw both setups without ammo. Use a hook or a loop of some sort to make it easier. See if the pull feels the same. Then come back for more.
> ...


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## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

libel said:


> ruthiexxxx said:
> 
> 
> > libel said:
> ...


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## hickymick (Feb 23, 2011)

ruthiexxxx said:


> OK...this has been puzzling me for ages. I've asked a few people without getting any further than 'well I understand why...but can't put it into words'.
> 
> It's this. I find that there is a very significant difference (for me at least) in drawing slingshots and slingbows with the same tubes. Given tubes of the same kind (usually Theratube); the same length tubes ; the same draw length...I find it more difficult drawing as a slinggshot than I do as a slingbow...with a commensurate difference in accuracy. What feels like a tough draw as a catty is a comfortable pull as a slingbow.
> 
> ...


see you got some answers ... leverage, stability,and rest from the brush


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## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

OK GUYS ! I will put the names of the best contributors into a hat tomorrow ...hey, well, my army helmet..... and pick a winner of the slingbow


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## dannytsg (Jun 16, 2013)

ruthiexxxx said:


> OK GUYS ! I will put the names of the best contributors into a hat tomorrow ...hey, well, my army helmet..... and pick a winner of the slingbow


Crosses everything in hope and anticipation lol


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## PorkChopSling (Jan 17, 2013)

A slingbow from Ruthie!! Thats the mother of all prizes!! Awesome!! Good luck everyone!!


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## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

and the winner is....................(drum roll)...............DANNY!

Many thanks amigo for helping me to understand the phenomenon.

And thanks too to the others whose names were not drawn out of the hat but who also helped get my fuddled brain round the issue.


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## PorkChopSling (Jan 17, 2013)

Congraulations Danny!!


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## dannytsg (Jun 16, 2013)

Wow! I'm amazed I won as I don;t normally win anything. Thanks again Ruthie and to all who helped out with comments.


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## Vetryan15 (Feb 7, 2013)

Congrats dude. Have fun with it


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## tradspirit (Jul 23, 2012)

Congrats Danny!!


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## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

Shouldn't there be a prize for the best line of bull. I think I qualify.


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