# Understanding tapers



## Zen Sticks (Dec 30, 2021)

I've recently started cutting my own bands. I can see how this can really allow for a person to really dial in their setup to their preferences. I can't say I'm dissatisfied with my current taper but I will absolutely be playing with this to find what works best for me. And I want to understand at least somewhat of what I'm doing. 
I understand the balance needed depending on the ammo used. I've experienced the rise and fall of hand slap. I've seen ammo fly flat. I've seen it arch and fall. 
Now I have seen some pretty dramatic tapers here and there. And I don't really understand what one would expect with such tapers and what those performance advantages / disadvantages may be. 
As I learn and experiment more what should one expect to achieve with a more dramatic taper? I've seen some tapers that are pretty wide at the frame and fairly narrow at at the pouch. So what are the performance expectations, pros and cons of a more dramatic taper? Now clearly at a certain point if it gets too narrow breakage then factors in at a much higher rate. I get that. 
• If I widen the cut at the frame what performance change would I expect?
• If I narrow the taper at the pouch what performance change would I expect?
• if I do both. Widen one and reduce the other?


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## High Desert Flipper (Aug 29, 2020)

Welcome to the freedom to experiment endlessly and adjust things any way you see fit! Making your own bands and playing with tapers is an amazing playground.

In a nutshell, tapers are a tradeoff between performance and band life. The more extreme the tapers will perform better while the more conservative tapers will last longer. Better performance = more ammo velocity from lower draw weights. Conservative tapers would be something like 5:4 ratios such as the popular 25-20 (25mm at fork to 20mm at pouch). More extreme tapers will have ratios like 2:1, something like 24-12.

Like so many things it comes down to personal preference. I make a lot of 25-20 tapers and they last very well. Lately I have really been enjoying 3:2 tapers like 24-16, 21-14, and 27-18, these seem to be a good trade off between performance and longevity for me. When going for top performance I will cut 2:1 tapers like 24-12 and enjoy them while knowing they won't last as long. Some people will go even more extreme than 2:1.

There is endless fun playing with different tapers and optimizing a particular latex to a particular ammo, finding the cut that works best with your particular draw length, etc. I can't imagine a life where I had to order bands, choosing from limited offerings, waiting for delivery, etc..


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## S.S. sLinGeR (Oct 17, 2013)

I make tube tapers, pseudo tapers, cocktail tubes all the time. With flat tapers and tube tapers you can really tune your shooter to your ammo weight and draw weight. It’s endless. I love making sets so much I have to many made now 🤣. Welcome to the aDicTiOn.


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## Grandpa Grumpy (Apr 21, 2013)

Any difference between the width of latex at the fork and pouch will increase speed. I would try to make the fork end wider. I would not make the pouch end too narrow because the bands will break more often.

If you are shooting targets (not hunting) then I would stay away from extreme tapers. I use straight cut flat bands for target shooting because I want the band to last. There is nothing more frustrating than getting a good hitting streak going and then have a band break. I prefer to use a longer draw to achieve more speed. I also use the smallest and lightest pouch possible. Less pouch weight means more speed. One of the reasons tapers increase speed is reduced weight at the pouch. There are people on the forum that can explain how tapers change the properties of latex to produce more speed but less weight at pouch end has something to do with the change.


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## boomslang (Jun 22, 2018)

Tapers & practicality........
If you buy a sheet of latex (.6 mm simple shot) I don't see much need to worry about band life... That latex is pretty tough & you have enough for a long time.... I like lighter set-up and my preferred is - cut 8" length w/ 5/8" to 1/4" bands.... I like a small kangaroo pouch also & 1/4" is as small as I prefer @ the pouch as it fits well thru the small pouch holes and still lasts long enough for me--- It also breaks there everytime & if you periodically check your bands you can see a small tear & change bands before they break.............


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## RonanMcLlyr (Jan 12, 2022)

High Desert Flipper said:


> Welcome to the freedom to experiment endlessly and adjust things any way you see fit! Making your own bands and playing with tapers is an amazing playground.
> 
> In a nutshell, tapers are a tradeoff between performance and band life. The more extreme the tapers will perform better while the more conservative tapers will last longer. Better performance = more ammo velocity from lower draw weights. Conservative tapers would be something like 5:4 ratios such as the popular 25-20 (25mm at fork to 20mm at pouch). More extreme tapers will have ratios like 2:1, something like 24-12.
> 
> ...


Do I make my frame taper fit the width of the frame and base my taper ratio from there?


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## brucered (Dec 30, 2015)

I swap frames enough, that I have decided to basically stick with one ammo size, 1 taper. So I don't mess around with experimenting too much with tapers.

There are too many variables for me to worry about, than playing around with tapers.

If the fork end of my bands are way too wide for a small frame, I shoot straights on it.


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## High Desert Flipper (Aug 29, 2020)

RonanMcLlyr said:


> Do I make my frame taper fit the width of the frame and base my taper ratio from there?



You don't really need to worry about matching the frame end of the taper to the fork. Lots of people, me included, use bands that are narrower than the fork tip. When shooting smaller ammo, I will often put a 21-14 on a frame with a 30mm fork tip. And many people use bands much narrower than that- I think I have seen lots of 16-12 and maybe even some 12-8 tapers mounted on 20-30mm wide fork tips. They will all be fine. And whether to mount narrow bands in the middle, inside, or outside is personal preference- there was just a thread on this recently.

It is also possible to use bands wider than the fork tip- these can wrap around a bit if only slightly wider, or the band can be folded (doubled) if a lot wider than the fork tip. I don't do this very often since the frames I prefer have wide tips (~30mm) so no need for me.

I like having the wide fork tips so I can use wide bands for heavy ammo, then just mount narrower bands on the wide tips when using smaller ammo with the same frame.


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## High Desert Flipper (Aug 29, 2020)

boomslang said:


> Tapers & practicality........
> If you buy a sheet of latex (.6 mm simple shot) I don't see much need to worry about band life... That latex is pretty tough & you have enough for a long time.... I like lighter set-up and my preferred is - cut 8" length w/ 5/8" to 1/4" bands.... I like a small kangaroo pouch also & 1/4" is as small as I prefer @ the pouch as it fits well thru the small pouch holes and still lasts long enough for me--- It also breaks there everytime & if you periodically check your bands you can see a small tear & change bands before they break.............


I 100% agree that latex life is not a huge worry, and the price is right. I don't think I have ever paid over $20 for a roll of latex, and having 2-3 favorites I am only ordering latex once, and rarely twice, in a year. Pretty amazing considering all the goofing around I do with different tapers, shooting nearly every day, and all.


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## cromag (Jan 17, 2021)

This is a little off the topic but I'm a whimp. If you are going to play around with extreme tapers , may i suggest you come up with some temporary finger protection , especially in cooler temperatures. Hand slap is going to become part of the game and it can be a little like shooting a gun without ear protection , flinching won't be far behind.


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## Zen Sticks (Dec 30, 2021)

Thanks for all the input everyone. This makes sense and is in line with what I thinking.


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## Zen Sticks (Dec 30, 2021)

cromag said:


> This is a little off the topic but I'm a whimp. If you are going to play around with extreme tapers , may i suggest you come up with some temporary finger protection , especially in cooler temperatures. Hand slap is going to become part of the game and it can be a little like shooting a gun without ear protection , flinching won't be far behind.


I feel like this may be some pretty solid advise. It really wasn't from messing with tapers, more so from some mismatched ammo / band combo but aside from shooting myself in the hand yesterday I also experienced some pretty wicked hand slap. 
Extreme tapers? Yep, that could be some solid advise right there.


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## tool (Oct 1, 2021)

cromag said:


> This is a little off the topic but I'm a whimp. If you are going to play around with extreme tapers , may i suggest you come up with some temporary finger protection , especially in cooler temperatures. *Hand slap is going to become part of the game and it can be a little like shooting a gun without ear protection* , flinching won't be far behind.


Absolutely. I try to manage my cuts around the most speed and the least bit of handslap. I could go for crazy speeds, but I'm not willing to tolerate the pain it gives. Shooting has to be fun, not painful.


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## Crac (Mar 3, 2013)

This topic is a little complex, here's an outline.


_edit_ The attachment's formatting.


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## tool (Oct 1, 2021)

Crac said:


> This topic is a little complex, here's an outline.


Very good, thank you. 15-12 will be my next try. I use 17-11 or 16-10 atm, but 15-12 seems to be a good taper.


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## Crac (Mar 3, 2013)

It's kind of hard to "show" the ideas, without examples... and it's hard to write good examples with a sensible step size. But the reference setup vs 5.1B... covers it.


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## Crac (Mar 3, 2013)

RonanMcLlyr said:


> Do I make my frame taper fit the width of the frame and base my taper ratio from there?


Step 1. You need to start with an objective, a really clear goal of what you are trying to achieve.

Step 2. You need an idea of much draw force and what size ammo... I have good rule of thumb for this part: The draw force in lbf = the ammo weight in grains divided by 4.
Top tip, a good draw force is A LOT less than most people think it is. * cough * nothing to see here, do I say not as I do... ( Half that would be a much much better. )

Step 3A. You need to pick or guess and pick what the right thickness of band. This step is a little tricky, other people might be able to help you better than me here. If you've got a good objective it should guide what you want in terms of strain, so the performance vs band life trade off. This step is really important.

Step 3B. You need to pick a good brand. This is a little subjective and prone to change in the long term. Note different brands make really really different rubbers. Some are soft and stretchy, others are really stiff and heavy. Readers in the future will need to ask the forum what is good.

Step 4. You work out your draw length. Note the 50th percentile US male is 69.2" tall... so that's about a ~31.5" draw. I'm treating it as height divide by 2.2... because that's what I use. Tape measures are our friends.

Step 5. Cut some rubber and see how shoots and what you want to change.

Step 6. Try some different widths if you want a big change, or change the free length for a little change ( Note this will change what level of speed/performance vs band life. )


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## Reed Lukens (Aug 16, 2020)

Crac said:


> This topic is a little complex, here's an outline.
> 
> 
> _edit_ The attachment's formatting.


I read the pdf, good info for making bands last at slower speeds. 
That's all fine, but extreme tapers give you extreme speed & that's why we use them. For me, when going for speed, extreme tapers are a must. I'm not talking about speeds under 300fps, right now - I'm between 400 - 530fps. I can easily pull 400fps with extreme tapers at normal draw, then I'm pulling 500fps with full butterfly & trying to work up to 600fps... 
All in all, this thread has a ton of great info 🤠 🎯 🤠


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## Zen Sticks (Dec 30, 2021)

Reed Lukens said:


> I read the pdf, good info for making bands last at slower speeds.
> That's all fine, but extreme tapers give you extreme speed & that's why we use them. For me, when going for speed, extreme tapers are a must. I'm not talking about speeds under 300fps, right now - I'm between 400 - 530fps. I can easily pull 400fps with extreme tapers at normal draw, then I'm pulling 500fps with full butterfly & trying to work up to 600fps...
> All in all, this thread has a ton of great info
> 
> ...


How are you coming up with your more extreme tapers? What's your method?


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## Reed Lukens (Aug 16, 2020)

Zen Sticks said:


> How are you coming up with your more extreme tapers? What's your method?


Basically, I've tried a bunch of different tapers and ran them all over the chronograph. For different speed badges,, the minimum weight for the ball is 1gm, so I shoot 1/4" which weighs 1 gm and then up to 5/8 marbles on my other rigs. Right now, I'm using a 3 to 1 ratio on the Taurus because it fits 1.5" bands and that's about all that I can pull with double band sets. I tried triples but it was way to hard to pull. Basically it's been lot's of different experiments . First, I mic the thickness of the band, then I do the elongation ratio for each type of latex, then do the math to get the needed weight at full draw, then go from there. Through trial and error, I've got my maximum weights down pretty good. 
As far as hand slap goes, I use an open hand thumb braced hold with a tight lanyard, which makes hand slap not an issue. Different frames cause hand slap way more than others and the Pocket Predator Taurus that I use has the widest set of band hold downs that I've found in a store bought slingshot and I can easily hold it open handed. It has the strength needed to be able to pull the extremely heavy bands safely built into it.


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