# Folded bands vs. several stripes



## JoergS

Hello,

using thin, wide bands leads to very powerful slingshots, as we all know.

I have noticed that many people cut out individual stripes, like three layers, and attach those to the fork and pouch.

I never do that, I fold the bands lengthwise instead. This has advantages:

- Faster to cut out
- Less tearing (the tearing is mostly caused die to nicks in the cutting - less cutting, fewer nicks)
- Less slippage at the bindings

I did not notice any disadvantage.

Opinions?

Jörg


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## Tex-Shooter

I am talking about flat rubber only in this post. Some test that I have run with Saunders bands and a non-tied pouch indicate several advantages of strips over folding! I have a set of double .025 flats on my target Star that have over 1000 shots on them and that is not uncommon. When tying bands the life falls off quite a bit. Of course a lot depends on fork configuration, but it is normally at the pouch that I am talking about. It seems like the wrinkles at the pouch cause more friction and damage when hitting the forks. Of course it does take less time and effort to make single band sets. I have even thought of going to single band sets for that reason also. Here are a few advantages that I have come up with and you have to have smooth cuts.
1) Less kinking (at pouch and fork tip)
2) More even stress (less tearing)
3) Better side to side pull uniformity (better accuracy)
4) Better flow at release (better accuracy)
5) Better over the tip lie (life and accuracy)
6) Less danger of severe face slap (one layer breaks before the other)
7) Just better looking
I can think one disadvantage that Jörg did not mention; doubles tend to get tangled once in a while when shooting. Tex


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## NightKnight

I think your logic is sound. The only downsides I can think of are:
1. It might be more cumbersome because they would want to unfold. 
2. You might have more friction between the bands due to the sharp angles.

Would it perhaps be better to wind the bands in a spiral around the shaft/mount point? Maybe something like the picture I posted below. This would require there to be a platform directly behind the prong to get the Over The Top effect.


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## NightKnight

Well, looks like I was a moment too late. Tex already made some great points.


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## Flatband

I'm also a big believer in Folded Tapers. I've found in Multiples that you invariably have one band or two that has more tension on it then the rest when drawn. This can lead to band oscillation and premature wear. It really doesn't affect accuracy that much that I can tell but it's just a matter of shooting comfort. I think we have all shot a set that was almost torn right through near the pouch and yet we still shoot in the same general area on the target as when the bands were fresh. I have also shot rubber of slightly different widths and still shot well. So again as with other things,it's what your comfortable with. Flatband


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## NightKnight

AaronC said:


> I think your logic is sound. The only downsides I can think of are:
> 1. It might be more cumbersome because they would want to unfold.
> 2. You might have more friction between the bands due to the sharp angles.
> 
> Would it perhaps be better to wind the bands in a spiral around the shaft/mount point? Maybe something like the picture I posted below. This would require there to be a platform directly behind the prong to get the Over The Top effect.


Jorg,

Have you had a chance to try this idea out?


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## Tex-Shooter

When testing Saunders .025 two bands per side, I consistently get over 1000 shots on my Target star (before they break) and have never shot a more accurate set up on the bench rest. The only problems I see with two bands per side are they occasionally get tangled and are harder to make and install properly. I shoot mine all the time and they don’t get that many shots, but it is because of the ties at the pouch, Tex


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## NightKnight

Bill,

Do you think that the Saunders bands, with their single loop per side and plastic pocket design, are more reliable than traditional pouches?


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## jmplsnt

Excellent post!! I was about to open a new thread on exactly this topic. I think I'm going to give flatbands another try when I get off the boat again. I've still got some Theraband Gold left and I see that now Wal-Mart is selling flat latex yoga bands 5' long 3 for $10. I think I'll give them a try. Thanks Jeorg and Tex for good information.


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## Alex Jacob

What-ho, folks. New to the site and have been following Joerg's Slingshot channel with avid interest. Here, then, is my two-penn'orth. I found that multiple strips of Thera-band Gold (untapered) performed very smoothly, slightly moreso than the equivalent folded bands, but that they were a right pain to install evenly. Also, with more cuts there is a greater chance of the left and right totals being uneven. How much this matters in practice I can't say (cos I'm still a greenhorn at shooting these things). I've reverted to single, folded bands - tripled - which taper from 8 to 6.5cm on the thinner side of the band (there's quite a disparity in thickness between one edge and the other with the TB gold band I've got) or the remainder, ie 7.5 to 6cm of the thicker stuff. That's about the maximum I can handle comfortably. Accuracy seems good and the only problem I've had is snatching the shot and denting my lower thumb knuckle in the process. I've holed a few bands but none have torn right through.

Later.

Alex.


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## dgui

JoergS said:


> Hello,
> 
> using thin, wide bands leads to very powerful slingshots, as we all know.
> 
> I have noticed that many people cut out individual stripes, like three layers, and attach those to the fork and pouch.
> 
> I never do that, I fold the bands lengthwise instead. This has advantages:
> 
> - Faster to cut out
> - Less tearing (the tearing is mostly caused die to nicks in the cutting - less cutting, fewer nicks)
> - Less slippage at the bindings
> 
> I did not notice any disadvantage.
> 
> Opinions?
> 
> Jörg


do you favor using rotory cutter?


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## Tex-Shooter

That is weird; I have found that folded bands, even though they are more work last longer for me. Folded bands have always torn at the kink where they were tied (either at the fork or pouch). I am shooting a two strip Saunders band set (actually one strip doubled with no tie at the pouch) right now with well over 1000 shots on them and still no tear has started. My own sets don't last that long because even though I use 2 strips there is still a kink at the pouch tie. Tex


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## JoergS

Tex-Shooter said:


> That is weird; I have found that folded bands, even though they are more work last longer for me. Folded bands have always torn at the kink where they were tied (either at the fork or pouch). I am shooting a two strip Saunders band set (actually one strip doubled with no tie at the pouch) right now with well over 1000 shots on them and still no tear has started. My own sets don't last that long because even though I use 2 strips there is still a kink at the pouch tie. Tex


My bands always tear at the pouch, never at the fork. But it is strange, they do not break IN the kink, but about 3-5 mm before the kink position, in relaxed condition. At full draw, this means that the tear occurs about 15 - 25 mm before the pouch! I do not know why that is, but I have seen others reporting the same thing.

It may be the case that the tearing happens when the bands hit the fork. The pouch side will have the highest speed and momentum. But that is just a theory.

I did notice another effect: Heat. You can do a little test yourself. Just put a weak band with thin flat rubber (Thera Band of any type, just not much of it) on any kind of slingshot you own. In example, for Thera Band Gold, use a single strip of 1,5 cm x 1 cm. Then draw it out in full, with no ball in the pouch. Now put your upper lip (very temperature sensitive body part) against the drawn out rubber. You will notice that the rubber just before the pouch is very warm, but the rubber near the fork is much cooler.

Jörg


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## Alex Jacob

JoergS said:


> That is weird; I have found that folded bands, even though they are more work last longer for me. Folded bands have always torn at the kink where they were tied (either at the fork or pouch). I am shooting a two strip Saunders band set (actually one strip doubled with no tie at the pouch) right now with well over 1000 shots on them and still no tear has started. My own sets don't last that long because even though I use 2 strips there is still a kink at the pouch tie. Tex


My bands always tear at the pouch, never at the fork. But it is strange, they do not break IN the kink, but about 3-5 mm before the kink position, in relaxed condition. At full draw, this means that the tear occurs about 15 - 25 mm before the pouch! I do not know why that is, but I have seen others reporting the same thing.

It may be the case that the tearing happens when the bands hit the fork. The pouch side will have the highest speed and momentum. But that is just a theory.

I did notice another effect: Heat. You can do a little test yourself. Just put a weak band with thin flat rubber (Thera Band of any type, just not much of it) on any kind of slingshot you own. In example, for Thera Band Gold, use a single strip of 1,5 cm x 1 cm. Then draw it out in full, with no ball in the pouch. Now put your upper lip (very temperature sensitive body part) against the drawn out rubber. You will notice that the rubber just before the pouch is very warm, but the rubber near the fork is much cooler.

Jörg
[/quote]

"1.5 cm x 1 cm" - that's tapered, right? If so, the narrower end will be working harder so will heat up more. The only time I've had a band break rather than tear a bit or get a hole was with three strips of untapered TB-gold per side. As with the other damaged bands, this happened at the pouch end, a few mm in front of the binding, as per your finding, Joerg.

If using a long strip doubled over and any tear happens at the tied end, it would be safer to tie at the pouch, wouldn't it? Unless one uses double taper bands tied on at the fork.

On the subject of heat and hence internal friction, I notice from one of your videos, Joerg, that you rated the TB-black band over the gold and were thinking about the thinnest available - any conclusions yet? And have you found the extra width to be a problem?

And on taper, has anyone found an optimum ratio of forkouch width? Oh, it's all a bit technical...


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## Tex-Shooter

Joerg, Everything you say is true as far as I can tell from test that I have run I had noticed the heat effect when stretching rubber years ago when working in the heat transfer division of Bohn Aluminum. By the way if held stretched out until it cools and then relax it gets cold. I guess technically loses heat energy to the air. I think that, heat, rubbing/hitting on the forks and kinking all have an effect on the life of bands. I don't ever kink tie bands at the fork. The reason that I think kink tying has an effect on life is on repeated test with Saunders bands (they are not kink tied) they shoot much longer that the same bands kink tied. I think the folds at the pouch of either folded or strip style bands, when kink tied has a negative effect on life. I had also done life test on strips and folded bands about 10 years ago (before I had talked to Saunders about flats) and found that the strips outlasted folded bands. I was considering using folded bands and did for a short period of time then. Of course that test was done with strip cut rubber and not hand cut, which as you know also has an effect on life. By the way, Saunders was the only company that returned my contacts at that time. They were also the only company that was willing to put up the money to develop flat band slingshots then and have spent a lot of money designing, producing, and fail safe commercial flat band slingshots. Slingshot manufacturing is a risky business in today’s American market (well in most markets) and not many American manufactures are willing to do it, so I try to support them and there products when I can. Tex


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## JoergS

Alex Jacob said:


> On the subject of heat and hence internal friction, I notice from one of your videos, Joerg, that you rated the TB-black band over the gold and were thinking about the thinnest available - any conclusions yet? And have you found the extra width to be a problem?
> 
> And on taper, has anyone found an optimum ratio of forkouch width? Oh, it's all a bit technical...


Tapering works, believe me. The more, the faster! But extremely tapered bands do not live very long. I am now using a ratio of about 3 to 2. This seems the best compromise for me.

Thera Band Black is faster than Thera Band Gold, and Thera Band Blue is even faster. If you go any thinner, the advantage is not apparent anymore. But you have to keep in mind that my most powerful set of Thera Band Blue is 28 cm wide at the fork (2x14cm), but only 20 cm long!

I tested the tan Thera Band, clearly the thinnest stuff. You can read a newspaper through it. But it is powder coated, like surgical gloves, and slips out of the attachments easily. You need like six layers of the stuff for good power, simply tedious to do and the speed isn't really better than for Thera Band Blue.

Thera Band Black is the thinnest material that allows you to cut out of a single layer (folded of course). So I recommend it.

Jörg


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## Alex Jacob

Nice one Joerg! Many thanks, you've just saved me a lot of experimentation - still some to do to find the right formula for my own slingshots but no need to reinvent the wheel. I was wondering if thinner stuff was a case of diminishing returns. I still have a bit of TB gold to get through but I might as well get some black in and make a Ninja special. With a hand guard this time.


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## NightKnight

JoergS said:


> But it is strange, they do not break IN the kink, but about 3-5 mm before the kink position, in relaxed condition.


I had this happen to me yesterday on a linatex band. Very strange!


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## dgui

Tex-Shooter said:


> That is weird; I have found that folded bands, even though they are more work last longer for me. Folded bands have always torn at the kink where they were tied (either at the fork or pouch). I am shooting a two strip Saunders band set (actually one strip doubled with no tie at the pouch) right now with well over 1000 shots on them and still no tear has started. My own sets don't last that long because even though I use 2 strips there is still a kink at the pouch tie. Tex


Tex, how long are your saunders bands from connected points pouch to prong? Over a thousand shots on a set of bands is impressive. I have yet to get half that on all the bands I have tried.


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## ZDP-189

I've shot flats, tubes, folded flats and rolled flats, but when I saw Fish's double gold strips, I realised it's a much more controllable delivery. I care little for durability, compared to control and consistency.


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## Tex-Shooter

I have tried both folded bands and the double strips. The double strips shoot longer and more accurately *for me *than folded bands. The Saunders band set that have over 1000 shots on, is 9 1/4 inches from the ball pocket to the contact point on the fork tips and is shooting about 180 FPS. They are on my *Target Star* and are still shooting. It has 2 1/2 inches of fork extension. By the way, the cover clips on the Saunders pouch broke off at about 300 shots, but it was a prototype pouch. I think that that showed that the clips were not needed. There are three main reasons for early band breakage and they are all related to each other. 1) Kinking where the band is tied to the pouch. 2) Bruising the rubber when it hits the fork tips especially where the rubber is tied to the pouch. 3) Shooting too light of weight for the rubber's strength, therefore not using the energy and banging the tips harder. Saunders band and slingshot designs address all of these problems. There bands have no tie, so no kink at the pouch. There fork tips are ramp style, so the rubber don't hit so directly. There bands are designed to shoot 1/2 inch balls from about 175 to 215 FPS (hawk to WRP) when not trimmed. A great misconception is that even moderately tapered bands are the main cause for band early band breakage (radical ones are). It has mostly got to do with tip, pouch, connection design and keeping the band taper moderate. -- Tex


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