# I dont get it, how to get 100 m/s with 9mm.



## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

I`m Norwegian and started shooting around 1 year ago. I have read much in this forum but something still escape me.

How to make a bandset, that gives 100m/s.

I have bought a cronograph, and get around 70m/s on any band or tubes i use. Chineese, TBG, Latex, 1745/1842/2040 (single/semi/double). As of lately ive started using premade Chineese flats as they are dirt cheap and only loose to TBG with a few m/s. 68 to 70.

Got a 92cm/36" draw, and shooting PFS. Anything else i just cant hit with, or i get fork hits. Full butterfly (160cm/63") with TBG/1745 dont give me much more, only a few m/s more than a normal draw 72-78ms. I draw til the band stops.

If i double my bands or tubes i only get nasty slaps. If i put more power into the bands, the worse the slap, but no more speed. So any good suggestions would make me very glad. i usually shoot in 10-20c

In advance sorry for misspelling!


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

How long is your band (in rest position)?

I shoot a 32" draw and use around 7" (21cm) of band - with single 1842 you should easily be breaking 100... Pseudo - about 1.5-2" loop even more.

And Welcome!


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

LOL - wait - 100m/s? Thats pretty fast.

Thats 328f/s!

Think you are doing just fine.


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## JPD-Madrid (Apr 2, 2013)

Ubamajuba said:


> I`m Norwegian and started shooting around 1 year ago. I have read much in this forum but something still escape me.
> 
> How to make a bandset, that gives 100m/s.
> 
> ...


I didn't see you mention tapered bands. That can only be achieved by tapered bands, which means less shots per set.

With a tapered bands or tube, Shooting with a speed over is not that difficult. You just drag fast to the maximum stretch and release your pouch immediately.

Sent from my EML-L29 using Tapatalk


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

https://slingshotforum.com/topic/19722-speed-freaks-ssf-300-club/


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## Ibojoe (Mar 13, 2016)

Welcome to the forum


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

Thank you for the fast response anic: .

I`ll go back to the 1842 then and try some semi loops again. Last one snaped mid-tube after 5 shots. Yes i do use taper, usually 2-1 my current TBG - is 25mm to 13mm.

I`ll go shorter and see if it helps. =)

Just one question. When i draw the TBG, it stops, but its more to pull, but it feels like pulling on chewing gum. It feels strange and im afraid the bands gonna brake. Is this right?.

/Uba


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## Pebble Shooter (Mar 29, 2014)

Welcome to the forum. Check out this interesting video regarding fast band sets using Theraband blue:


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

I cut some 1745 semi looped and went out again. 11 c out side 10 shots thru the Chrono. Started at 80 m/s, then 82 m/s. Rest landed around 87.x with one shot going 90.2 m/s. Still missing 10m/s :stupidcomp: :cursin: . This was drawn to what i consider max-ish. :naughty:

Took a pic of my setup:









So 1842 would be better?

Cheers!

/Uba


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## raventree78 (Apr 20, 2016)

Just wanted to say nice frames.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

A question. Why the desire for these speeds?

It can be a little tortoise and the hare...

Faster speeds come for the projectile being onder load as long as possible. Can try a starship setup...


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

Thnx free to download and print https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3280155


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## mike160304 (Aug 10, 2018)

Ubamajuba said:


> . . . . . I have bought a cronograph, and get around 70m/s on any band or tubes i use. Chineese, TBG, Latex, 1745/1842/2040 (single/semi/double). As of lately ive started using premade Chineese flats as they are dirt cheap and only loose to TBG with a few m/s. 68 to 70. . . . . . . .


For a given taper cut, I find Precise 3rd generation very good and I think that it beats Theraband but I am no expert.

With the Chronograph, I find that for a given draw length and stretch factor, increasing rubber width/thickness (and draw weight) beyond a certain point actually reduces speed. The SimpleShot tutorial videos show this very well too. It's all about hand slap too.

I am told that to increase speed beyond what you (and I) have already tried, I would have to extend draw length to "3/4 to full butterfly", which with practice might take me personally out to about 1250 mm draw length, USING RELATIVELY LIGHT flatbands.

See my current thread

https://slingshotforum.com/topic/117318-why-shoot-butterfly-full-or-semi/

I am not on the same journey as you because I shoot at 4.75x stretch for great flatband life.

But I am about to try moderate butterfly, for fun, using my safest slingshot with 65 mm fork gap (see photo).

I have no idea why a PFS would help in your particular quest. Most people use slings with 45-65mm fork gaps.

Good luck,

Mike


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

Ty for an informative post Mike, and a very nice sligshot you got. Yes my main problem with full butterfly (162cm) is that i feel the bands or tubes getting too heavy, and the hole setup feels sluggish. If I use TBG, it dont feel snappy enough. Im gonna try a single 1842 with full butterfly or at least semi. Wide forks aint for me as i cant hit anything with it anic:

/Uba


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## mike160304 (Aug 10, 2018)

Uba - thanks, it'll be interesting to hear how you get on.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Matt asked already, and I wonder too. Why the need for extreme speeds? Is it for longer distance shooting? If so, there are easier techniques to use.


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## SonoftheRepublic (Jul 3, 2011)

Just to add information to contemplate . . .

This video by Bill Hays demonstrates that wider forks give you faster speeds:


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

Why the need for speed? Fun, power, braging, flat trajectory. Maybe its more a mental goal for me, finding a configuration that i can work with and get good at, still powerfull and fast. Ive read alot thru the last year about the physics of rubber/latex, compounds, setups, tapers, band/tube life, coctails, loops, semi loops, power to weight ratios, tying pouches, cuffing, restrictorknots, and more :nerd: . The basic prinsipal is the contrationspeed and power of the material used vs the mass of the setup and amunition. In general slingshots are not leagal in my contry :angrymod: . But a few years back they allowed somthing called "Husflidsprettert" (Husflid=handmade/crafted, Sprettert=slingshot) The ban was put in place to get rid of most powerfull fabrikation slingshots. And to my understanding that is anything with and arm brace. Ive tested this with importing 3 types of slingshots, all without a brace and they got thru custom and have not recived any legal notice to show up in court. There is every year a newspaper headline of someone going to court for importing a slingshot with a brace, and the fine is big (unleagal weapon). So thats my background for research into compounds, speed and setup for my slingshot. Since im imperial 100 m/s is just a number, if I would use ft/s it probably would be 300 ft/s. :banana:

I understand the reason for higher speed with wider fork, longer acceleration time. PFS is for me about portable frame format, and i quite enjoy it. :bonk:

Cheers!

/Uba


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

The speeds you are currently getting are pretty high in general. If you can get 200f/s with 8mm you can easily hunt with these speeds. Also speed may come at the loss of accuracy - why I say is could be tortoise and hare. Slow and heavy may be more accurate over light and fast (and could also be more energy transfer).

100m/s is closer to 330f/s.

Personally I like to go with adequate speed but more accurate. Think my only setups that are reaching in excess of 300f/s would be my .177 BB ones...

But if it is your goal - check out the speed freaks sections in the competitions forums. Some guys are getting speeds over 500f/s. I suspect this is only possible with very long draw setups (along with full butterfly) - which probably suggests starship type frames and using a brace - which you mention is illegal in Norway... I'd look into who is getting the high speeds in the speed freak section and seeing if you can ask those members how they achieved those speeds.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

The other option is to use a smaller projectile and a lighter band setup. Try 6mm with 1632 tubes.


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

Got some 1632 on the way as we speak. Thnxs for the tips.


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## stej (Jan 16, 2013)

One thing that came on my mind when I read "Norwegian" is temperature. What's temperature over there? I would guess it's pretty low compared to wherer other slingshooters live and break records.


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## mike160304 (Aug 10, 2018)

Today I tried 2 identical frames with 40 mm fork gap, one rigged for "cheekbone draw", the other for "semi-butterfly".

Both have Precise 3G 0.7 mm flatbands with 11-9 mm taper and a draw weight around 3.2 kg/7 lb.

The cheekbone one has 143 mm effective rubber length, stretched 4.75x to 680 mm in the draw.

The semi-butterfly one has 225 mm effective rubber length, stretched 4.75x to 1070 mm in the draw.

Average speeds in fps were as follows:

8mm steel - cheekbone 219

- semi-butterfly 241 +10.0%

9mm steel - cheekbone 192

- semi-butterfly 218 +13.5%

9.5mm steel - cheekbone 197

- semi-butterfly 216 + 9.6%

Not very exciting, but I guess that full butterfly would add a bit more speed, but getting nowhere near 100 m/s or 328 fps.

Fastest "cheekbone" speed I have had so far, with other slingshots, was with 6 mm steel and was 270 fps or 82.3 m/s, so only 21.5% more speed would take us to 328 fps or 100 m/s - maybe with 3/4 or full butterfly?


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## AKA Forgotten (Jan 26, 2019)

Thanks for the data and amazing speed for so little rubber. Precise 0.7 at 42% with 9.5 steels I use 23/12 taper, but no chrony yet to know my speeds


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## AKA Forgotten (Jan 26, 2019)

Sorry typo. Should be with Precise 0.7 at 4.2x with 9.5 steels I use 23/12 taper.


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## mike160304 (Aug 10, 2018)

mike160304 said:


> . . . . . . . . Fastest "cheekbone" speed I have had so far, with other slingshots, was with 6 mm steel and was 270 fps or 82.3 m/s, so only 21.5% more speed would take us to 328 fps or 100 m/s - maybe with 3/4 or full butterfly?


PS re this comment - this was probably with something like a "cheekbone" rig with Precise 3G 0.55 mm with something like 14-11 mm taper and ERL (effective rubber length of 143 mm), and drawn not more than 4.75x, to around 680 mm draw length.

I would doubtless get more speed in general if I drew to 5x or more, but I like long band life. My slings are cruisers not racing cars, I don't like maintenance work.

I find that if I drop to 6 mm steel, the pouch has to be tiny to match. The small ammo is much more troubled by the pouch getting in the way than, say, 9.5 mm steel.


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## mike160304 (Aug 10, 2018)

AKA Forgotten said:


> Thanks for the data and amazing speed for so little rubber. Precise 0.7 at 4.2x with 9.5 steels I use 23/12 taper, but no chrony yet to know my speeds


Thanks, I can understand why you use only 4.2x draw there. My Wings sling with *double* flatbands, Precise 3G 0.7 mm, 11-9 mm taper is roughly equivalent to 22-18 mm (or is it?) and it is hard to pull beyond 4.5x, but I accidentally cut the bands a bit long, so it is actually shooting at 4.2x at cheekbone and feels a bit more lively if I draw it to 4.5x, to an instinctive floating anchor somewhere near my earlobe.

I would feel lost without my Chronograph. Without this, in the above semi-butterfly experiment yesterday, I might have thought that I had broken through to much higher speeds and found the Secret Of Life, not just getting 9-13.5% more speed.

I sold a Chrony (older tech) which had no "own lighting system" and often missed shots and bought a Dankung chronograph on special offer for under £40 ($50) delivered and it sits on a camera tripod and hardly ever misses a shot. Magic.

PS - all my "steel" balls in these posts are in fact mostly clay balls of the exact same weight, but talking about e.g. "3.5 gramme clay balls" (= 9.5 mm steel) here in the Forum would probably confuse a lot of people.


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

STEJ - Normal is shooting temps are 10-20c, everything above 15c is summer :looney:

Mike - Ty for the data, ill do a set when i get the time, maybe a vid. Maybe ill get it done in the weekend.

When you measure a strech do you count in the original length of the band, so if a band is 10cm in relaxed and i pull it to 50cm is that 4 or 5 strech?

You only pulled it 40cm, so 100% would be 20cm, 200% 30cm and 40cm is 400%?

/Uba


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Unamajuba, when we say 500%, we mean a 10cm band drawn to 50cm. It doesnt matter if it is correct or not, it's simply the convention we use here, to be able to understand each other  
Oh, come and live here, 15° is winter in Athens ????


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## AKA Forgotten (Jan 26, 2019)

mike160304 said:


> AKA Forgotten said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the data and amazing speed for so little rubber. Precise 0.7 at 4.2x with 9.5 steels I use 23/12 taper, but no chrony yet to know my speeds
> ...


I think double banded would be about the same. I think I remember a Simpleshot (?) YouTube explaining why they were no longer supplying double bands.

I arrived at my length but getting distracted and cutting longer than planned, but can't resist testing mistakes. Turned out 4.2x allowed me that moment of short rest to settle on the target. With 5x I was releasing as I past over the target and wasn't as consistent.

Been looking at the Dankung chronograph for a while, was undecided but I think you've made up my mind to get one. Thinking I'm now at the stage where one would be very useful. Thank you again.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

LOL - in Durban South Africa - in winter at 25ºc everyone is wearing jersey's and drinking hot chocolate.


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## stej (Jan 16, 2013)

I asked about the temperature cause I belief this is something that might be the reason of "slow" bands.

You might maybe try to preheat them somehow? (keep in warm box with at least room temperature)


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## Kalevala (Jul 20, 2014)

skropi said:


> Oh, come and live here, 15° is winter in Athens


That winter temperature sounds really terrible


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

Just made a single set of 1745 with 30cm band in relaxed state, pulled to full butterfly 162=5.4 elongation. Dont have a draw scale, but very easy to pull. Sad to say it only gave me 60 m/s= 198ft/s, felt sluggish. <_<

/Uba


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Kalevala said:


> skropi said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, come and live here, 15° is winter in Athens
> ...


Heeeey, we do get 0° and a bit below, some days......and only in the coldest hour, before dawn lol ???? Then it gets 10°-15° again ????


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## mike160304 (Aug 10, 2018)

Ubamajuba said:


> Just made a single set of 1745 with 30cm band in relaxed state, pulled to full butterfly 162=5.4 elongation. Dont have a draw scale, but very easy to pull. Sad to say it only gave me 60 m/s= 198ft/s, felt sluggish. <_<
> 
> /Uba


Thanks, and thanks for mentioning the elongation factor. A lot of us just call it e.g. "5.4x stretch" or just "5.4x".

What was the ammo?

Do you measure your butterfly draw by tying a string on the bottom end of the frame and drawing the string between 1st and 2nd fingers while you draw the pouch?

I ask because the longest butterfly draw I can get, in practical terms, is about 130 cm / 51", but of course body widths and arm lengths vary.

I use a string with a knot to maintain consistency when I am shooting through the chronograph and trying semi-butterfly, etc.


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## mike160304 (Aug 10, 2018)

Ubamajuba said:


> Just made a single set of 1745 with 30cm band in relaxed state, pulled to full butterfly 162=5.4 elongation. Dont have a draw scale, but very easy to pull. Sad to say it only gave me 60 m/s= 198ft/s, felt sluggish. <_<
> 
> /Uba


Here's a pic of my draw scale.

It's a 6 kg, which is enough for my pocket slingshots. Salter brand, Little Samson, I think.


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

Thnx for the tips ????. Yes its measured w string. With my pfs i just slip it in between my fork while keeping tention with my grip on the fork. Grab the end with the pouch and draw. Mark string at fork end and measure


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## mike160304 (Aug 10, 2018)

Ubamajuba said:


> Just made a single set of 1745 with 30cm band in relaxed state, pulled to full butterfly 162=5.4 elongation. Dont have a draw scale, but very easy to pull. Sad to say it only gave me 60 m/s= 198ft/s, felt sluggish. <_<
> 
> /Uba


What was the ammo, please?

The 1632 will be slower, or?

Mike


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## mike160304 (Aug 10, 2018)

Ubamajuba said:


> Thnx for the tips . Yes its measured w string. With my pfs i just slip it in between my fork while keeping tention with my grip on the fork. Grab the end with the pouch and draw. Mark string at fork end and measure


String through the fork, hey, that sounds easier than me tying it onto the end of the handle - I'll try that, and if I am shooting with the string on and a knot, maybe simply masking-tape the string end on the back of the fork so that it stays there..

Thanks,

Mike


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

And then it magic started by flipping randomness. Ok, so to day i was home with my son 7(yrs) who has just removed his tonsils. No running around but i wanted to take him outside for some fresh air and I ask him if he wanted to go practice some slingshot shooting. He was all in to get out of the house. His slingshot made by me:









Its basicly a twig with some cheep chinees flatbands on. And hes pelting 6mm at a big target. I pull up my crono to see if my new TBG works, and it disappoints me. 72 ish m/s. The kid wants to try his slingshot and he does a decent 44.6 m/s. Im going hey let me try your slingshot kid. Lo and behold [email protected] m/s, band slap like crazy. Next shot [email protected]/s no slap. Hes got the sec lowest band/power in the collection that i got. So to night ive restrung my TTF with a red chineese band. Just been out trying and it feels good. Better than my TBG. :naughty:

I think his is 0.55/0.6mm. The band that i got are, 0.5, 0.6, 0.65, 0.7, 0.75, 0.8 and some gold 1.mm Chineese bands. It was the first i bought 1 yr ago when i wanted to try this. But reading forum and youtubeing i wanted TBG, and awsome tubes. Now im going back to the beginning to explore what i got stuffed at the bottom of my slingshot box. :cookie:

I`ll keep you posted on my progress.

Cheers!

/Uba


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## mike160304 (Aug 10, 2018)

Ubamajuba said:


> . . . . . . . . Now im going back to the beginning to explore what i got stuffed at the bottom of my slingshot box.


Random sounds fun! I have also had a few random Chinese bands that were surprisingly fast.

Also, someone has pointed out that wide forks are good for speed - your son's sling has a wide fork.


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

Random it will be.















Tryed to measure them but i was suite hard =)
/Uba


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

Just a little update. I found a cheep fish scale, and measured the weight at my draw with my tff is 83cm, ends clamped to the table and pulled accordingly. Relaxed length 21cm gives a strech 4

In rising order:

Orange = 6 lbs

Natural = 7,5 lbs

Green = 8 lbs

Yellow = 8,5 lbs

Red = 9 lbs

Blue = 10 lbs

Gold =12 lbs

Next update will be speeds.

/Uba


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Why don't you stretch the bands 500%? By elongating them x4, you loose much speed.


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

Was just testing the difference in weight at same draw to get equal measures, clamping band ends to one end of the table and pulling to the opposite end. Need some kind of rig to do some better testing. =/

/uba


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Tell you what, if power and speed is what you are after, you have one very good option, that has the benefit of VERY low draw weight. Extend your draw! 
The difference between my 78cm and my 115cm draw is HUGE. My longer draw has a draw weight so light, a baby could draw it, and it is so fast its hard to even see the ball in the air. 
To give you an example, I am using a less than ideal band for 3/8 steel. I use 1cm straight cut gzk 1mm, which is slow for 3/8 steel, slower than 0.72 at least. 
Well, with an active length of 23cm, I draw about 115cm, and the speed is very good. Imagine now a tapered, thinner elastic....it would have an even lower draw weight, and even faster speeds. 
Really, just take the plunge and shoot 1/2 or 3/4 butterfly! Full butterfly would ve even better, but its a bit harder to master.


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## mike160304 (Aug 10, 2018)

skropi said:


> . . . . . it is so fast its hard to even see the ball in the air.


LOL!!! Paint the ball dayglow orange.

You need a chronograph.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

mike160304 said:


> skropi said:
> 
> 
> > . . . . . it is so fast its hard to even see the ball in the air.
> ...


When I started shooting, I really thought I needed a chrony. Now it's the last thing I need, I prefer to just shoot  
Btw, the app, chrono connect, does a VERY good job calculating speed, but it's a bit fiddly.


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

I do shoot butterfly with my pfs, but i havent found the right bands for it yet. The TBG just feelst to sluggish and does not give me the what i want. i got some 1632? Tubes on the way, and some blue flatband Theraband. Ive started to shoot my TFF again and ive managed to aim it better. Tried going butterfly with it but i got a nasty fork hit, so im back to my ear anchor for that kind of shooting =)


__
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/Uba


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Theraband gold is slower at equal draw weight to GZK or Precise. Chinese flat bands, gzk, precise, sumeike etc, are faster. 
As for fork hits, I got some too, till I found out a consistent pouch hold. Dont get discouraged, persevere, practice smart, and you will leave fork hits behind  Practicing with a frame that you don't care if you destroy, is also very helpful ????


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

Whaaaat! Then why all the praise to TBG?

Sent fra min SM-G930F via Tapatalk


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Ubamajuba said:


> Whaaaat! Then why all the praise to TBG?
> 
> Sent fra min SM-G930F via Tapatalk


The praise was justified back when we didn't have the option to get other elastics, and tbg had a different, better formula.
Tbg is perfectly fine for target work btw, it's just that it lacks in speed.


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## mike160304 (Aug 10, 2018)

Ubamajuba said:


> I do shoot butterfly with my pfs, but i havent found the right bands for it yet. The TBG just feelst to sluggish and does not give me the what i want. i got some 1632? Tubes on the way, and some blue flatband Theraband. Ive started to shoot my TFF again and ive managed to aim it better. Tried going butterfly with it but i got a nasty fork hit, so im back to my ear anchor for that kind of shooting =)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You mean TTF I think. I have also been told that my fork hits may be caused by imperfect pouch release. However I get them far more shooting sideways than shooting upright, so my frame hold is probably less "square" when I shoot sideways.

Currently trying to shoot my OTT "Altoids Tin" baby frame (25mm fork gap), upright, with clay balls up to 16mm diameter (well above the "up to 40% of fork gap" rule), equivalent in weight to 9.5mm steel. Fork hits don't do much damage, and I am improving my pouch release gradually. Tapered Precise 3G, I hope to chronograph today, if the frame survives.


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## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

TTF yes. I just made å OTT with 4cm gap. Its still in the works sanding carbon laminate is a prosess????. With OTT are the ammo passing thru the fork or over it?


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## mike160304 (Aug 10, 2018)

Ubamajuba said:


> TTF yes. I just made å OTT with 4cm gap. Its still in the works sanding carbon laminate is a prosess. With OTT are the ammo passing thru the fork or over it?


It means "over the top" of course but I think that the ball sometimes may not go completely over the top. It may depend on the whole shooting action, including the behaviour of the left wrist.

Therefore many shooters are of the opinion that the diameter of the ball should not be more than 40% of the fork gap, to provide a safety margin. But others might argue against this, I guess there will not be consensus on this subject.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Assuming a clean release and no speed bump, the ammo always travels between the forks. This is all unimportant though. The important thing is for the ammo to hit the target, and how it gets there is secondary ????


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## mike160304 (Aug 10, 2018)

Skropi - re "Assuming a clean release and no speed bump, the ammo always travels between the forks. This is all unimportant though."

Maybe unimportant, but it may be relevant to the matching-ammo-to-fork-gap thing, which affects the lighter, bigger diameter clay or pebble ammo scene, where you do not go, more than the steel ammo scene. 

E.G. I have just been shooting 16mm 4.1 gramme clay (= 10mm steel) with my 25mm fork gap baby sling "Curiously" - ammo 62% of fork gap.

I think that I get away with this by strong forward rotation of left wrist, sending the ammo "mostly" over the top, but I would like to see slow motion video of this.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

If you flip the frame, or if you are holding it pointing forward, it all affects the ammo path. That being said, I shoot the opfs without twist and tweak, just pointing the frame forward.


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## mike160304 (Aug 10, 2018)

Ubamajuba - did you ever get 100 mps / 328 fps with 9mm ammo?

If so, how?

Mike


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