# Hathcock Target Sniper, in ballistic resin and Universal Forks!



## Bill Hays

This is the Hathcock Target Sniper production model.
It's made from ballistic kevlar fiber impregnated resin. These will be available in 3/4" or 1" thicknesses to fit different hand sizes.
To start with they will come in either "safety" red or Ninja Black.

ONE of the unique features of this slingshot is the universal fork. This fork can shoot bands of all types and tubes of all types... and it can shoot over the top or through the forks!
The indention grooves serve to align either the tubes or bands and also act as a targeting site notch when side shooting as well!
After MANY tests, and a lot of minor and some major changes this slingshot's fork type, along with the ergonomics of the frame contribute to this being one of the most accurate pocket sized slingshots I've ever used or seen.










3/4" thick ballistic resin pucks shot with a Ruger 10/22 .22 cal rifle at 60'









This is a proof video for the new ballistic resin slingshots I'm making. The frame is a Hathcock Target Sniper with universal forks. First it is shot with a slingshot and .50 cal steel balls, and then with a scoped and suppressed .22 caliber rifle using high velocity hollow point ammunition.


----------



## bleachbone

hey bill,

great work, you always impress me with your work.

how much would one of these beuties be. i would love to know.

thank you for your answer.


----------



## brockfnsamson

"Bullet proof Hathcock" I think that's a oxymoron.







Seriously Bill, how much? I am very interested!


----------



## NaturalFork

I love the way you devised the universal band attachment. Absolutely genius. Your designs are great for the community.


----------



## NaturalFork

This might be the perfect slingshot. How can I buy one?


----------



## Bill Hays

Thanks for the kind words guys!

These will be available in the vendor's section, probably tomorrow night. The 1" thick ones will $35 plus shipping, and the 3/4" thick ones will be $30 plus shipping... banded up and ready to shoot in whatever style for whatever hold you prefer.
Right now I'm just waiting on some bands and such to finish them off all the way.


----------



## huey224

they are really nice frames, nice work bill


----------



## shot in the foot

Well what can you say about that, a slingshot for lfe, and one for winter hunting no cold metal, clever chap, jeff


----------



## BCLuxor

I like the way you have catered to all shooters with the attachment methods. very nice work.


----------



## Gandolphin

Are there different colors to it?
Please return to our pms...


----------



## Devoman

Super cool, I want one!


----------



## zille

haha...I will definetely buy one of these...I admire your products and want to try it out for myself...great one!


----------



## brockfnsamson

Just found out I will be getting the first one shipped.








Cant' wait! Thanks Bill


----------



## Bill Hays

Thanks again Guys!

Again, these will be available in the Vendor's section either tonight or first thing tomorrow morning.
To start with there will be two sizes available, 3/4" thick for hands around 7", and the 1" thick for hands that are 7.5" and up.
Initially there will be only red or black available... but in the future I'm sure there will be other colors as well.


----------



## JoergS

Bill, nice work! How do you like the through the fork setup? Less handslaps?

Jörg


----------



## Devoman

Oh boy, I can't wait, I have one on the way! Bill is going to be a busy guy, these are hot!
Thanks Bill!


----------



## Gandolphin

is the black one for sale? how much will you sell it for?


----------



## Bill Hays

JoergS said:


> Bill, nice work! How do you like the through the fork setup? Less handslaps?
> 
> Jörg


Hello Jorg,
Definitely for me, shooting through the forks is the best way to go. Using very heavy bands and 1/2" or under sized steel ammo creates a LOT of speed and energy... but gives me a pretty nasty handslap when shooting over the top. Flip shooting can help, but is really against pretty much ALL the sniper/marksmanship training I've had over the years... and I just can't get comfortable or really all that consistently accurate using that method.

I knew that shooting through the forks can help to reduce or even eliminate handslap so I explored all the different designs I saw out there.. The problem was though, I was a lot more accurate shooting in an over the top fashion, than with any of the setups I used... so I needed to devise a way to shoot through the forks and yet be just as or more accurate than shooting over the top.
That's the reason I came up with this fork design concept... then with some experimentation and a few mods, I made it so it's universal, able to shoot tubes or bands equally well.

With this fork setup, I can shoot through the forks with as heavy of bands as I want, not get handslap, shoot MORE accurately, use bands until they give out and then if I'm in the field grab a set of chinese style tubes out of my pocket and SNAP they're on!

As the days get colder I appreciate NOT getting that handslap more and more.


----------



## Bill Hays

Gandolphin said:


> is the black one for sale? how much will you sell it for?


They will be available in the vendor's section soon.
The 1" thick models will be $35 plus shipping and the 3/4" thick models will be $30 plus shipping.
At first, they will be available in only red or black.


----------



## 919h

Smart and really nice !

Xav


----------



## Gandolphin

Bill Hays said:


> is the black one for sale? how much will you sell it for?


They will be available in the vendor's section soon.
The 1" thick models will be $35 plus shipping and the 3/4" thick models will be $30 plus shipping.
At first, they will be available in only red or black.
[/quote]

Great!
1.Can i get one like right now?
2.Can it be combined in a more complexed slingshots?
3.Is it heavier than wood?
4.Is it possible to include your magazine idea within this slingshot?
5.What is the difference between a Balistic Resin Hathcock and a G10 Hathcock?


----------



## Bill Hays

Gandolphin said:


> Great!
> 1.Can i get one like right now?
> 2.Can it be combined in a more complexed slingshots?
> 3.Is it heavier than wood?
> 4.Is it possible to include your magazine idea within this slingshot?
> 5.What is the difference between a Balistic Resin Hathcock and a G10 Hathcock?


Wow, so many questions!

1. Sure, just PM me and we'll set something up.

2. I'm not sure what you're asking here... combined in what way? Most things are possible, with a little imagination.

3. It is a little heavier and _much_ stronger than any wood, including dymondwood. If you've ever been irritated because you got a fork hit on one of your expensive custom made wood slingshots, denting, chipping or breaking it... THIS is the slingshot for you.

4. I have it "on the drawing board"... it's just going to require me making a special type of master to cast this from... and I have to get time to make it. That's all!

5. I'd say that G10 and G11 are my absolute most favorite materials to have a slingshot made from. There are virtually no negatives in the finished product, unless you have a mediocre craftman trying to make it... working with and making a G10/11 slingshot is labor intensive, hard on your tools, and requires a lot of safety precautions. Each step has to be planned beforehand, if you screw up with G10, you're basically done for, wasting $35 worth of material. Yet at the same time, due to the fact you're making each one by hand, each piece will be slightly different no matter how well you think you're adhering to the pattern. Each slingshot produced is really a labor of love, and like a test of the craftsman's skill... a real testament to the abilities of the craftman. True Customs.
Whereas a cast ballistic resin slingshot is really, really nice... similar weight and super strong and all... not really difficult to work with, more of a challenge in different small details... once your system is established it doesn't take a "master craftsman" to produce super quality products... that are all _extremely_ similar. Perfect for Production.


----------



## Darb

Bill,

I have 2 questions about the flatband attachment method on your new universal fork heads.

a) On the pic with the red resin frame, the attachment appears to be on the left sides of the new forkheads, whereas on the pic with the black frame, the attachment appears to be the more standard over-the-top. Can you elaborate a bit on the whys and results of both methods ?

b} Because of the new forkheads, it appears flatbands will have a groove underneath them in mid-band, regardless of what attachment method (top or sidewise) is used. For those using wider bands folded over, this seems like it could result in reduced contact area and possibly some slight central-band stress. Have you encountered any issues with slippage or increased incidence of premature band failure at the fork heads ?

I'm not being skeptical ... I'm just trying to absorb the dynamics of the new and innovative design.

Kudos.


----------



## NightKnight

Very nice! I love the shoot through method especially!!


----------



## Bill Hays

With this fork design you can shoot over the top or through the forks depending on how you attach the bands.
The grooves serve three purposes, one is an indention for wrapping the band's attachment rubber around, two is for indexing tubes, and three is they serve as a sighting notch.
When you're side shooting, all you have to do is line up your bands, put your target in "the groove" and release... and bam! you hit.

After thousands of shots and many bandsets of a lot of different types and setups... none, zero, nada have had accelerated wear at the forks... any and all bandsets that broke/tore were right below the pouch tie as usual.

BTW I have a set of bands on my personal shooter (same fork design, different frame), gold thera cut 11" X 1" straight, that have lasted through 50 lbs. of 1/2" steel (around 2500 shots) with no signs of real wear yet.... AND I have a set of chinese style tubes cut a bit longer for my draw length, that have lasted well over 4000 shots (mostly 3/8" steel), and have been transferred to many different slingshots while testing the new units.
So there's really nothing to worry about!

Edited to add:
The fork tips are _slightly_ wider than an inch, so they fit most bands without folding


----------



## Darb

Thanks for elaborating, Bill {the function of the grooves was self evident from the photos, but the effect on bandlife was not}.

The performance sounds great ... I'm sold. Add a black one to your order backlog (red is fine too if you run out). I'll coord via PM sometime in the next few days.

p.s. Don't ask me why, perhaps it's just the recent proximity of halloween, but when I saw the pics of the red and black resin earlier, I couldn't help but think of candy corn, and also the incredible edibles kit I played with as a kid. Are these edible ?


----------



## Darb

brockfnsamson said:


> Just found out I will be getting the first one shipped.


I'm guessing it was because of your avatar.


















Those legs look a lot more dangerous than the slingshot with the busted band she's holding.


----------



## Bill Hays

Darb said:


> p.s. Don't ask me why, perhaps it's just the recent proximity of halloween, but when I saw the pics of the red and black resin earlier, I couldn't help but think of candy corn, and also the incredible edibles kit I played with as a kid. Are these edible ?


Ummmm, Yeaah, they ARE "universal" after all!
You just need a few special eating implements... a diamond coated saw blade to cut it up, and a 35 ton press to chew up the pieces!
"Seriously" though, if you can chew it... go for it!


----------



## PandaMan

Nice! I might try and buy one of this. I'll start saving up and in 9 weeks, I can get one. By any chance, did you call it the Hathcock sniper because of the WWII sniper who shot a bullet right down another sniper's scope? If so, that is not true, Mythbusters tested it and the lenses deflect the bullet too much. But anyway, I might be contacting you in the future about this slingshot. Do you ship to the UK?


----------



## hawk2009

Very nice Bill fantastic job love the video to very entertaining.


----------



## Gandolphin

Sent a pm








Thanks Bill.


----------



## Dayhiker

These are fabulous, Bill. I don't know how I missed this. Great work, Maestro!


----------



## Darb

PandaMan said:


> If so, that is not true, Mythbusters tested it and the lenses deflect the bullet too much.


The important things to remember about Mythbusters, and History in general, are:

a) The Mythbusters are not perfect, and have been wrong on numerous occasions. I watch the show semi-regularly. Just because they cannot reliably replicate something under the conditions they setup does not necessarily mean that whatever they're trying to replicate is 100% impossible. Sometimes, the conditions they devise to evaluate the likelyhood of something are suboptimal or badly flawed, and/or rely on an insufficient sample size. As a science oriented kinda guy, I'm always rooting for the Mythbusters, but sometimes I roll my eyes at their goofs and shortcomings.

b} Recorded history is not perfect either. Sometimes events are not fully and completely recorded in complete detail, and details tend to drift with repeated accounts, as you go from speaker to speaker and author to author. Fishing stories are a classic example of how fish that got away tend to get bigger over time, as they slowly morph from real events into folklore. The legendary Cyclops of Greek Mythology, for example, was in all likelyhood spawned by early greeks marvelling at the enormous skulls of Mammoths (which have a large hole in the center of the head), and coming up with explanations for them, which were told and retold by countless people, until it eventually became legend and accepted religion. Getting back to Hathcock ... I'm not an expert on him, but regardless of Mythbuster's findings, it's entirely plausible for a high powered bullet to damage or destroy one end of a scope enroute to the skull of the person looking though it, regardless of whether or not the bullet actually went through the eyepiece at the REAR of the scope, and it is equally plausible that repeated retellings of history can distort the actuality of whaterver happened into the legend we have today. It is also remotely possible that it could have happened exactly as described, regardless of how improbable. I've seen a coin land on it's side, and I've occasionally rolled dice combinations that are rarer than 500,000:1, so perhaps I'm a bit more tolerant to the improbable, for having seen it with my own eyes.


----------



## Darb

Order PM'd.

I already have a high-end traditional SS (EPS-017), and was looking to try one of the best available Ergo designs to shoot alongside it ... and the hathcock seems to fit the bill.

Next up for me will be to acquire something for butterfly shooting.


----------



## bikermikearchery

Got me chompin at the bit here. The last thing I need in the world is another slingshot, but *I want *seems to be winning. I keep watching the vendors section for these to show up, or do I need a secret hand shake to get one?
What is the distance between the forks?


----------



## Bill Hays

PandaMan said:


> Nice! I might try and buy one of this. I'll start saving up and in 9 weeks, I can get one. By any chance, did you call it the Hathcock sniper because of the WWII sniper who shot a bullet right down another sniper's scope? If so, that is not true, Mythbusters tested it and the lenses deflect the bullet too much. But anyway, I might be contacting you in the future about this slingshot. Do you ship to the UK?


Yeah it's called the Hathcock, it's to honor Carlos N. Hathcock... who is the the greatest sniper the Marines ever had. He was in Vietnam not WWII.... having over 90 confirmed kills, and probably twice as many that were unconfirmed.
About Mythbusters... I did not see the episode you're referring to, but it was reported that Hathcock did indeed shoot a NVA sniper in the end of his scope... whether the shot went all the way through or slightly deviated is not the point. The point was the other sniper had targeted Hathcock and was a breath away from ending his life instead of the other way around. 
Having been a sniper myself... I can tell you, don't underestimate the power of the 30.06. I have personally seen a bullet go through 36 one inch pine boards at a distance of 100 yards... so the power to go all the way through a scope, especially if hit just right, wouldn't be much of a challenge.
Then you may wonder if it would be accurate enough to do the shot in question.... well, I, who was just a "pretty good" shot took a running deer with a single shot at over 700 yards with a bullet to the back of the head... so someone like Hathcock who was a much better shot than I, shouldn't have had to much a problem accomplishing the task, especially at jungle combat ranges of 100 yards and under.

Anyway... back to slingshots.
Sure, shipping international is not a problem... shipping is more, but you're paying that!


----------



## bikermikearchery

Been watching the vendors section for this. Did you all ready get ordered out? 
Put me on the list for one of these
Thanks
Mike
BMA


----------



## Mtnfolk Mike

another cool looking shooter Bill.. i love the universal band attachment..


----------



## Bill Hays

bikermikearchery said:


> Been watching the vendors section for this. Did you all ready get ordered out?
> Put me on the list for one of these
> Thanks
> Mike
> BMA


Yeah Mike... I got swamped with orders, even though I haven't put any up for sale yet!
Hopefully I'll get enough made up to "officially" put them on sale by this weekend.

PM me and I'll put you first in line for one.

Thanks Guys!


----------



## Bill Hays

For Guy and a couple of others who've PMed and are interested in the difference between G10, ballistic resin, and multiplex... as it pertains to strength of the slingshot etc..

The following video is for you!

G10, ballistic resin and multiplex slingshots put to an impact test with a .22.... then the ballistic resin shooter is taken off and shot with afterwards:


----------



## Jaybird

Bill very nice looking slingshot.


----------



## SlingMan

Thanks for the video Bill!

What more could anyone say except ask for your ordering information?

Bullet Proof SS's at an affordable price.

Next, show up at the ECST and show everyone who's the next Champ!


----------



## Jaybird

Slingman
I thought you were going to be the next ECST champ?


----------



## lobodog2

Outstanding video Bill!! It REALLY shows how tough that G10 and Ballistic resin is. And shooting the coke can afterwards was a nice touch. I cant wait till mine comes in!!


----------



## Gandolphin

Bill Hays said:


> For Guy and a couple of others who've PMed and are interested in the difference between G10, ballistic resin, and multiplex... as it pertains to strength of the slingshot etc..
> 
> The following video is for you!
> 
> G10, ballistic resin and multiplex slingshots put to an impact test with a .22.... then the ballistic resin shooter is taken off and shot with afterwards:


Thanks







I'll go with the g10


----------



## brockfnsamson

Arrghhh!!! My neighbor has been collecting our mail and he's not home, thinking of breaking in to see if my Hathcock is in there.


----------



## Devoman

Hey Guys, mine just came in the mail today, I took about 50 shots with it....very nice! Feels very good in the hand, I will let you know more I got to go shoot it right now!


----------



## Frodo

You shot at a A+ slingshot?


----------



## Bill Hays

Frodo said:


> You shot at a A+ slingshot?


No, that's a clone a guy sent to me in trade for a special one off G10 shooter I made... it was supposed to be more similar to a "dayhiker" made of cocobolo with an aluminum core, and he sent that instead.... some of my trades have not turned out so great for me!


----------



## lucifer93

Bill Hays said:


> This is the Hathcock Target Sniper production model.
> It's made from ballistic kevlar fiber impregnated resin. These will be available in 3/4" or 1" thicknesses to fit different hand sizes.
> To start with they will come in either "safety" red or Ninja Black.
> 
> ONE of the unique features of this slingshot is the universal fork. This fork can shoot bands of all types and tubes of all types... and it can shoot over the top or through the forks!
> The indention grooves serve to align either the tubes or bands and also act as a targeting site notch when side shooting as well!
> After MANY tests, and a lot of minor and some major changes this slingshot's fork type, along with the ergonomics of the frame contribute to this being one of the most accurate pocket sized slingshots I've ever used or seen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3/4" thick ballistic resin pucks shot with a Ruger 10/22 .22 cal rifle at 60'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a proof video for the new ballistic resin slingshots I'm making. The frame is a Hathcock Target Sniper with universal forks. First it is shot with a slingshot and .50 cal steel balls, and then with a scoped and suppressed .22 caliber rifle using high velocity hollow point ammunition.


I am glad i live in England, you have rabbits that shoot back in the united states of america







Do you all own guns?


----------



## Bill Hays

A gun is just a tool. It can be used for hunting, target practice, put on a shelf and admired or even used to defend yourself against those who wish to harm you or your loved ones.... and like MANY tools it can be misused by "bad guys" as well.
Honestly I believe all responsible adults of sound mind and good moral character should be able to own whatever they want... so I own many!


----------



## brockfnsamson

GOT IT!























The 1" fits my hand perfectly (insert joke), and has a good weight. Mine came with some crazy strong bands, going to put lighter ones on for indoor snaps. Shot it a few times, easily controllable, no hits. I am very happy to get a frame I don't have to worry about destroying! Thanks Bill








PS; Sorry for blurry pic, just held it while holding a point and shoot in the other hand.


----------



## lucifer93

brockfnsamson said:


> GOT IT!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 1" fits my hand perfectly (insert joke), and has a good weight. Mine came with some crazy strong bands, going to put lighter ones on for indoor snaps. Shot it a few times, easily controllable, no hits. I am very happy to get a frame I don't have to worry about destroying! Thanks Bill
> View attachment 4400


I think it looks very nice and great that you can attach tubes and bands on the forks different ways. I was making a joke about shooting a slingshot with a rifle. I wonder if you can make a resin back to guard against fork hits with a nice wood front ?

I think it's great that you can own guns there but a hammer is a tool to build things, guns are for the main purpose of killing things.

I don't own guns but my Mrs now has a nice collection i have brought her


----------



## Bill Hays

That's actually what I've been working on (that and a "card-shot", the credit card slingshot)... Dymondwood or some other beautiful woods for the grip and lower fork areas and ballistic resins for the fork tips.
What I'm kind of leaning towards is a nice G10 sheet for a full sized core and the tips to be of ballistic resin with graphite added for slipperiness... This way you can pretty well use whatever material you think is the most attractive on the rest of the slingshot and it will still be an extremely strong shooter.
When I get time, there will be some experiments...

Oh, and BTW... people wielding hammers have taken more than their fair share of lives as well.


----------



## Performance Catapults

Bill Hays said:


> You shot at a A+ slingshot?


...it was supposed to be more similar to a "dayhiker" made of cocobolo with an aluminum core, and he sent that instead.... some of my trades have not turned out so great for me!
[/quote]

That's interesting


----------



## Devoman

brockfnsamson said:


> GOT IT!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 1" fits my hand perfectly (insert joke), and has a good weight. Mine came with some crazy strong bands, going to put lighter ones on for indoor snaps. Shot it a few times, easily controllable, no hits. I am very happy to get a frame I don't have to worry about destroying! Thanks Bill
> View attachment 4400
> 
> 
> PS; Sorry for blurry pic, just held it while holding a point and shoot in the other hand.


I agree some crazy strong bands that beg for heavy shot! I like em but I am going to change them out since I shoot a lot of gumballs on my daily dog walks through the woods. I hope to post a review soon, I spent a good deal of time shooting it today and it is sweet!

Thanks Bill!


----------



## Jaybird

Bill you are right about the guns.Guns kill people like pencils mis-spell words or how forks and spoons make you fat.


----------



## ZDP-189

Bill Hays said:


> For Guy and a couple of others who've PMed and are interested in the difference between G10, ballistic resin, and multiplex... as it pertains to strength of the slingshot etc..
> 
> The following video is for you!
> 
> G10, ballistic resin and multiplex slingshots put to an impact test with a .22.... then the ballistic resin shooter is taken off and shot with afterwards:


You are the Cliff Stamp of the slingshot world.


----------



## SlingMan

Jaybird said:


> Slingman
> I thought you were going to be the next ECST champ?


If Bill don't beat me. LOL!









One thing certain I'll be on your heels Jay if Bill doesn't show. The "old men" are
going down this time.









Part of my strategy is mind conditioning. Of others that is.LOL!

You'll see what I mean SOON!

Practice often and no sandbagging! Get it?









You're a Thinker Jay. Give my response a thought or two.


----------



## Frodo

Bill Hays said:


> You shot at a A+ slingshot?


No, that's a clone a guy sent to me in trade for a special one off G10 shooter I made... it was supposed to be more similar to a "dayhiker" made of cocobolo with an aluminum core, and he sent that instead.... some of my trades have not turned out so great for me!
[/quote]

There are many bad guy's out there!


----------



## Bill Hays

Frodo said:


> You shot at a A+ slingshot?


No, that's a clone a guy sent to me in trade for a special one off G10 shooter I made... it was supposed to be more similar to a "dayhiker" made of cocobolo with an aluminum core, and he sent that instead.... some of my trades have not turned out so great for me!
[/quote]

There are many bad guy's out there!








[/quote]

Yeah, and that's pretty well what I think of most people's clones as well. Blow 'em up.
Now, if it had been somewhat different than an A+ slingshot, or even improved in some way, I'd have probably kept it, but I already have 2 A+ slingshots. It's like one time I made a knife trade with a guy, he was supposed to send me a bradley titanium butterfly knife... and he sent me an aluminum chinese clone instead... like I can't tell the difference or something!


----------



## Bill Hays

Okay, I just checked my email and I received two youtube comments from Perry:

Wow...﻿ I would have rather bought my slingshot back from you rather than have my products and me disrespect in such a manner. As a southern Man myself (originally from Texas) I can say that my respect for you has been lowered considerably since you chose to specifically demean my product to elevate your own. If you had just stuck with a non descript multiplex I would not have not felt insulted.

My experiments show that most fork hits on multiplex do not usually devastate but only nick, that is indeed why I started making them. You crossed the line with me Bill..... not cool!!!

//////////////////// and

Wow... I would have rather bought my slingshot back from you rather than have my products and me disrespect in such a manner. My experiments show that most fork hits on multiplex do not devastate but only nick. You crossed the line with me Bill..... not cool!!!

//////////////////////////

First of all, I probably should have mentioned in the video the third slingshot being shot at was NOT an A+ slingshot, but a closely made clone, and that's what I think of most clones. It was not my intention to show how different designs hold up to impact, but to show how different materials react to impact stress, from a specific requesting source.

In point of fact, I did do and video, impact tests on plywood slingshots using a slingshot and shooting 3/8" and 1/2" steel at them. It was pretty amazing how quickly and easily they broke... I didn't post that one because they look like complete junk, most becoming unuseable after only one decent hit, and that's not the implication I wanted to produce.

I don't think that's crossing any lines, and if anyone does think that's "crossing the line"... then so be it.


----------



## Performance Catapults

It is crossing the line Bill. I look at everyone here as family. I didn't start making my slingshots to compete with any of the other custom slinghot makers. Did I do a comparison of the EPS with A+, Bunny Buster or any of the others? No! You would have been fine by just shooting your own product with the .22 rifle. Instead you proceeded to demean Perry's slingshot. Even if it was a clone, it represented a likeness to Perry's slingshot, and that's exactly what anyone will think when they watch that video. There was no point in doing that. You also mentioned you were supposed to receive a cocobolo slingshot with an aluminum core. Who else on here has made such a slingshot? Did you have plans to do the same thing to an EPS, or was it another, so called clone? I think you've watched too many TV commercials, and you're trying to use a cut-throat marketing scheme to promote your own slingshots.

Perry and myself, as well as the other custom makers, spend several hours making our slingshots, pouring our heart and soul into each one of them, to have you use them as ginny pigs to be slaughtered by a .22 rifle for your benefit. I feel the same way as Perry about buying back the slingshot, rather it end up in your hands on a trade. No denying you're one **** of a shot, but you're not a good role model for the sport/hobby.


----------



## SlingMan

I agree with you Bill.

There's several individuals that take things wrong here, usually from wrong assumptions
or assumed definitions or outright twist what an individual says.

I didn't see your videos that way at all. But that's me.

As for Perry @ A+ I can't think of a more respectable guy here and I have his products and 
I'm very pleased with EVERYTHING.

When Jaybird responds to my post (about winning the ECST) I'm going to demonstarte VERY WELL how people assume things
wrongly and don't pay attention to detail. I'm poking fun at Jaybird but I'm at the same time trying to
demonstrate a very important point that many could heed.

Again my







!

Take care...


----------



## SlingMan

Performance Catapults said:


> It is crossing the line Bill. I look at everyone here as family. I didn't start making my slingshots to compete with any of the other custom slinghot makers. Did I do a comparison of the EPS with A+, Bunny Buster or any of the others? No! You would have been fine by just shooting your own product with the .22 rifle. Instead you proceeded to demean Perry's slingshot. Even if it was a clone, it represented a likeness to Perry's slingshot, and that's exactly what anyone will think when they watch that video. There was no point in doing that. You also mentioned you were supposed to receive a cocobolo slingshot with an aluminum core. Who else on here has made such a slingshot? Did you have plans to do the same thing to an EPS, or was it another, so called clone? I think you've watched too many TV commercials, and you're trying to use a cut-throat marketing scheme to promote your own slingshots.
> 
> Perry and myself, as well as the other custom makers, spend several hours making our slingshots, pouring our heart and soul into each one of them, to have you use them as ginny pigs to be slaughtered by a .22 rifle for your benefit. I feel the same way as Perry about buying back the slingshot, rather it end up in your hands on a trade. No denying you're one **** of a shot, but you're not a good role model for the sport/hobby.


Jim, would you please give a logical explanation with what's wrong with comparison tests of any
products, sling shots or not? Keep things in context please. Look at what Bill was testing. Don't read
into something that's not there. If something is implied but unclear, ask the source for veryfication.

There's ways to critique products in a positive way even though a product may have faults (I'm not refering
to Perry's SS's either). How can a vendor or an individual better a product without feedback, positive or negative?

I can take Bill's video and really twist it to mean many things but I would have to add and take away things never
intended. One last point, IF this whole controversy was in a court of law context you would be considered a biased
witness with a financial interest. See how things can be seen from different points of view









Just something to think about.


----------



## Bill Hays

Jim, I'm sorry if you feel I'm not good for the slingshot world! Let's see... let's just make a list of 10 really bad things I've done:

1) Tried to make improved slingshot designs, bringing together ergonomics and utility, increasing worldwide interest and appeal
2) Tried to find and use superior materials to make slingshots better able to shrug off unintentional abuse (dropping, fork hits etc)
3) Developed universal fork structures so that a slingshot doesn't have to be limited to a particular shooting style or propulsion assembly
4) Have sponsored shooting contests with slingshots as prizes
5) Have offered advice and suggestions whenever asked
6) Have donated, given away, MANY slingshots that I could have sold instead.
7) Have asked for and received much feedback on my designs and materials so that I can continue to improve what's available
8) Did shoot how to videos for shooting
9) Did shoot video showing impact resistancy differences
10) Did just respond to your comment about me being a bad role model.

Yep, with role models like me... I can see how the whole slingshot world might be in jeopardy!


----------



## Performance Catapults

SlingMan said:


> Jim, I'm sorry if you feel I'm not good for the slingshot world! Let's see... let's just make a list of 10 really bad things I've done:
> 
> 1) Tried to make improved slingshot designs, bringing together ergonomics and utility, increasing worldwide interest and appeal
> 2) Tried to find and use superior materials to make slingshots better able to shrug off unintentional abuse (dropping, fork hits etc)
> 3) Developed universal fork structures so that a slingshot doesn't have to be limited to a particular shooting style or propulsion assembly
> 4) Have sponsored shooting contests with slingshots as prizes
> 5) Have offered advice and suggestions whenever asked
> 6) Have donated, given away, MANY slingshots that I could have sold instead.
> 7) Have asked for and received much feedback on my designs and materials so that I can continue to improve what's available
> 8) Did shoot how to videos for shooting
> 9) Did shoot video showing impact resistancy differences
> 10) Did just respond to your comment about me being a bad role model.
> 
> Yep, with role models like me... I can see how the whole slingshot world might be in jeopardy!


How about wearing some safety glasses in your videos before someone who idolizes you loses an eye trying to be like you?

There is no question in your ability to make fine looking slingshots. And you have done alot of good things, but one "uh-oh" ruins alot of "at-a-boys". You just need to go about your marketing without slaughtering others hard work. I have alot of slingshots from other makers, and I wouldn't think of performing tests on them, even though they collect alot of dust. They are part of a collection that I will cherish for my lifetime, and hopefully pass on to my children. How about buying the materials we use, and performing your tests on sections of the layups?


----------



## A+ Slingshots

No excuses. To further my point you have taken a message that out of courtesy I sent to you privately and have made it public. I started to do otherwise but instead of letting my frustration get the best of me I sent it private in hopes of an honest dialogue bringing some resolve. 
Bill I'm a man of honor that looks to others to be honorable. To me this was a blatant attack with the strongest "visual language" you could dream up. Selling my catties is my sole source of income.....I didn't think you needed to "blow your competition away" to succeed.


----------



## Brooklyn00003




----------



## brockfnsamson

I will say this and only this. After owning both a PS2 and a Hathcock, the PS2 remains to be the frame yet to be matched! It simple but perfectly molds to your hand becoming an extension of yourself, I don't think about holding on, it's just in there, with the Hathcock I don't have that relationship, I'm always aware that im holding on to something.


----------



## Nico

If a man approaches you to resolve an issue one on one it should never involve others, that is not the way a man deals with things. In that showing a private email to a public forum is not the way to go when the person wanted to deal with you one on one. Why make it a public mockery?

Not taking sides just stating my stance of the issue of man to man dealings..


----------



## Bill Hays

A+ Slingshots said:


> No excuses. To further my point you have taken a message that out of courtesy I sent to you privately and have made it public. I started to do otherwise but instead of letting my frustration get the best of me I sent it private in hopes of an honest dialogue bringing some resolve.
> Bill I'm a man of honor that looks to others to be honorable. To me this was a blatant attack with the strongest "visual language" you could dream up. Selling my catties is my sole source of income.....I didn't think you needed to "blow your competition away" to succeed.


Oh, it's all Okay now then... since you deleted your comments.

Let me be VERY clear and very specific. A relative few people could pick out that one of the slingshots I was shooting at was all that similar in design to one of your's... until YOU chose to bring it to attention. What is it, do you think you patented the Y and the "hole"?!? Give me a break.

You want to know what makes ME upset? When I get a message that one of the slingshots I made got a fork hit, or fell on a hard surface and now is "messed up". It also makes the customer upset... So I DID something about it. Instead of shrugging at the customer's misfortune and endlessly producing more of the same product that is still vulnerable to the same unintentional breakage... I have tried to come up with solutions. Superior materials are one of the things I've pursued. I cannot help it if others choose not to do the same. Producing the same exact patterns, over and over and over in the same more fragile materials.

Youtube is a visual medium, shooting at squares or rounds of material does not translate nearly as well as shooting at an actual slingshot. I merely grabbed four of the worst pieces I had, failed prototypes, a proof pattern, and a 90% clone, that all happen to be examples of the materials I was comparing... then shot them up.

The two A+ slingshots I got from you are on my office shelf along with about 30 other real nice high end slingshots from a lot of different makers. I already did, videoed and posted to youtube a couple of positive reviews on your slingshots. Not every slingshot is capable of hitting close to 60% from 66' straight "out of the box". If I intended to "blow" my competition away you would certainly be a target, and I would NOT have said anything positive about your stuff. You're being far to sensitive. So cut out this nonsense before it gets out of hand.


----------



## wd40

Bill, you have done an awful lot for the sport in an awful short time.

Even the great Bill Herriman, a few weeks back, posted such.

Please don't stop what you're doing.

As far as the video, I see that you were simply trying to show us the new lightbulb you had invented. And what a great lightbulb it is. I think we all get that.

However, when I first saw the video, I immediately thought it was an A+ slingshot and thought it was in poor taste, even though that was not your intent.

I have hurt many more people's feelings in my lifetime unintentionally than I ever have intentionally.

I do have a Bill Hays Jade Dragon that I just received this past week. I am loving it.

I will also be checking the mail this week for something from Jim Harris and something from Perry Adkisson as well. I eagerly look forward to those packages.

I think Bill was just trying to show he's got something that shrugs off fork hits in comparison to other widely used materials.

I've never had a fork hit. I'll never shoot my slingshots either.

In the video of Rufus at his workbench, showing his nephew-in-law how to tie up the slingshots, he said of his dogwood and maple frames, "One of these will last a fellow for a lifetime...... if it's taken care of."

That's right. And that's the way all things are.

I hope Bill will decide to pull the video..... not because he had any ill-intent to hurt another man's business, but because it's the right thing to do. He can post lots of other videos shooting his G10s and ballistic resin frames to show how good they are against fork hits.

And I hope all the rest of us can realize Bill is a good guy that didn't mean to hurt anyone or demean their product.

Let's all get past this and have good fellowship and good shooting.


----------



## A+ Slingshots

Bill LET ME BE VERY CLEAR..... YOU and YOU alone made this public!!!!!! Just as I said, out of frustration I started to, but deleted it within seconds and instead sent it to you as a private email on Youtube. No one would have had time to view my comment!!!

I'm not one given to thinking more of myself than I should, but when it comes to my catty.... I know full well what I've created..... a Great Fitting, Great Shooing "VERY RECOGNIZABLE" slingshot that has sold, and is being sold all over the world now, so saying that a only a relative few would have even recognized it is ludicrous. 
Bill I'm not an overly sensitive man, and I would suggest you take your own advice and cut this nonsense out, as your posts here are now offending other buyers, makers and vendors as well. 
Bill you make great slingshots and have no need to do anything other than show them to sell them, so I just don't get it. I believe all vendors here are all trying to do some of the same things like expand a neat and interesting sport, make a living, or at least make some extra income for our families. I would just suggest that we all try to have just a little bit more empathy and good will toward others in the same business. I appreciate the video reviews you did of my slingshots. That is indeed part of why you just really took me by surprise with this one. 
While it might have not been your intent, the video really struck a bad cord with me since I have always tried to be so careful not to do or say anything disparaging about or toward any other vendor or product. 
To be honest a simple apology and a replacement video showing the same things with your own slingshots would have already ended this, but instead you have chosen to defend your actions.
Nostalgia is a big part of slingshots to me, so that's why I've chosen to sell good ole wooden forks and in no way feel they are in some way inferior to any others. Your new ballistic resin is a neat idea, but in no way obviates the uniqueness or value of wooden catties to everyone. Many like me only like wooden slingshots (metal cores are fine) but I at least need some wood on the outside. Each to his own. There has always been room for everyone and every kind of catty. Choices, and the ability to build a collection is another big draw to slingshots.

Now to be completely frank, I believe we both have too many slingshots to make (and in my case a family and a church to attend to) to let this take up any more of our time, so this will be my final post regarding this issue. Let's just chalk this up to needing to agree to disagree and go on!!!

Be well Bill, as always may you have continued success!!!


----------



## Bill Hays

Perry, the video was taken down.
I don't know when or how long your comments were on there, but I'll take your word for it.
I too have much to do in a day, and one of the things I have to do is answer a LOT of emails, I don't have time to go checking youtube or answering comments all day.

Just to be clear, my intent was not to cause you harm in any way. Only to dramatically show the difference in materials used in the manufacture of slingshots. When I got the emails with your comments, to be honest it really pissed me off. When that happens I tend to buck not buckle... I'm sure you're an honorable man, you've always been square with me, so I took the video down and will merely shoot at the materials themselves in the future. It won't be as interesting but I don't want to hurt the feelings of any fork makers out there!


----------



## wd40

Gentlemen,

I am glad all is well in the slingshot world tonight as I shut my eyes. I will sleep in peace.

Perry, it is understandable to have the reaction you did. To think someone is attacking your work product as somehow inferior would rankle most of us.

But as one who works in a court of law 40 hours a week, in my gut, I know that wasn't Bill's intent at all. He gave both the PS1 and PS2 pretty much glowing reviews over two months ago on youtube.

This thing is over and done.

Now let's all get about our business of showing the rest of the world how much fun they are missing!!

WD


----------



## A+ Slingshots

Thank you Bill!!! I too was quite ticked and maybe should have given you a little more benefit of the doubt, taken more time, and worded my email differently before I fired it off to you. For that I apologize, I'm not perfect either. I suspect we both may have similar temperaments.








I also believe you to be an honorable man Bill. Keep up the good work and innovation!!!

Merry Christmas to you and yours!!!
Perry Adkisson


----------



## Performance Catapults

No hard feelings on my end. Moderator, please feel free to remove my two prior posts.


----------



## Darb

In fairness to Bill, I didn't notice the resemblance when I watched the video ... I was too absorbed in seeing the essence of what he was trying to demonstrate, which was illustrating how different materials react to fork/frame impacts. From that vantage point, the make of the SS didn't matter in the slightest - for me, only the materials were relevant. It was a very cool and educational video, and I think Bill is a great innovator, and an exciting and positive force in this hobby.

In fairness to Perry, after having read this thread and belatedly seeing the resemblance, I can also understand his reaction. Yes, it probably could have been handled better (such as by making a rough Y out of various materials).

In any case, I'm glad it's all squared away. These things happen, and I can think of a few doozies from my own past where I've unintentionally hurt (or been hurt by) others. Might make for an interesting thread in the off topic area.









Ok, back to the sink/bathroom for me ... still struggling with day 2 of a dreaded "double ender" virus.


----------



## Tex-Shooter

Having had conversions in the past with both Perry and Bill, I was sure that this would be worked out in time. I like and respect both of these two fine Gent's and they both make fine slingshots and have promoted the slingshot sport.

I have two of Bill's slingshots, one made of multi-plex and I am sure that he was not even casting a disparagingly light on that product. I also have one of Perry's fine slingshots.

Bill is respected in multible sports and comes from a fine Texas Ranger family that is much respected. Perry is also very respected in his area.

Having been a Roo-Haw of my own with out any ill intentions on my part, I understand how things like that happen. Maybe we all should have little thicker skins. -- Tex-Shooter


----------



## BaneofSmallGame

I am very glad this is all sorted out now. I didn't dare comment earlier, because sometimes things should just be left to sort out man to man, as has happened. I honestly was very surprised by the whole thing coming from you two, but I will not take any sides or state any opinions on the matter, nor have my perceptions changed of all of you. Though I'm not purchasing your slingshots (don't have the cash







, and I enjoy making my own)) they are fine pieces of craftsmanship and I respect all of the vendors and makers work. Things happen, we are a big group of strong willed and intelligent people trying to make ends meet in the world of today. All communication is done through text on a computer screen so things can happen.

If I am to say anything, it is that wd40's 1st post above on this page was an excellent one. If I were the one angered that would move me, I think it would have an effect on my words hereafter in the dispute.....as he said lets all rebound and get back to shooting and sharing our information and ideas as always.

The true measure of a man is how he reacts in the face of adversity......

Cheers - John


----------



## mxred91

I was wondering why this thread was so long. Glad to see things settled down. I think both Perry and Bill make fine slingshots, different but both really nice. When I get around to actually buying, instead of making, I would likely get one of each, because they are different. That is what makes slingshots fun, so many choices.


----------



## bikermikearchery

I got my Hathcock TS in last night well made piece of equipmnent that I'm very happy to have in my collection. Going out to through some .68cal paint balls downrange reigh now.
Good job Bill.

Mike
BMA


----------



## Bill Hays

Thank you Mike. It sounds like you're going to have a lot of fun!

To everybody else... Christmas is FAST approaching... I only have 6 of these left. If you want one by the big day, either for yourself or as a gift for someone special... then you better get on with it!


----------

