# Are so-called tactical pens a relevant defense tool in your opinion?



## Pebble Shooter

Unlike the US, many jurisdictions around the world do not allow their citizens to carry loaded firearms for self defense in the streets, many view knives as a contentious issue as a potentially lethal weapon in terms of proportional means of defense relative to the type of attack, some will barely allow Kubotans and tactical pens to keep two legged trouble at bay, and some at least allow pepper spray. In countries such as the UK and Spain, forget the very concept of self defense, because all of the above are prohibited. No "stand your ground" there, more like "run away fast, if you can". Great.

Kubotans and tactical pens seem to make sense when it comes to relatively non-lethal E.D.C defense tools, as the attacker may suffer some rather nasty bruises and possibly worse if hit in the face, but will most likely live to see another day. This is crucial because of a tendency of judges here in Europe to be lenient with the perpetrators, while legally hammering the innocent victim who decided to make a proactive response to the attacker with a suitable defense tool. There is plenty of case law where the victim ended up in jail, whereas the perpetrator(s) left court to freedom. Thankfully, Samuel Colt and legislators thought differently on your side of the pond. "Make my day" has well founded origins.

I've been looking at tactical pens as an interesting option, as it does not draw any particular attention (it's just a ballpoint pen with a pointed metal tube, right?), and that it is fully legal to carry here in Switzerland - as opposed to kubutans, for some twisted legal logic I fail to understand. I find so-called "knuckle dusters" quite interesting too, but these are totally banned in most of Europe. This is strange, considering that a fully legal pointed tactical pen has the potential of inflicting some really serious injury to an assailant from someone with the right skills in the heat of the moment. 

If you're now thinking "why does he need a self defense tool in the land of chocolate & watches"...well, fully open borders to the EU have also attracted criminal folks out for easy money in a wealthy country, and an influx of "culturally interesting" (I'm being very polite here) new folks from Arabia and Africa seeking asylum in Switzerland, a trend encouraged by the do-gooder leftist parties, have not done much good in terms of felt safety in city streets. Quite sad really, because it really was very safe here until about 15-20 years ago.

So, what is your opinion on a defense tool with which you can both write and strike?


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## Biker_Bob

Here in the UK I think the Police would recognise that you were carrying a tactical pen, as opposed to an ordinary pen and possibly try and charge you for carrying and offensive weapon. If a pen is the route you want to go down then simply carry a full metal body normal pen, like those nice stainless "Parker" pens you see.
I carry two Leatherman tools with me, knife and saw blades removed to make them legal - if it came to it I would extend the locking Philips screwdriver and have one in each hand as non-lethal (screwdrivers are only 30mm long) but very debilitating punching weapons. In the UK screwdrivers are not classed as offensive weapons.
You should check exactly the legal situation in Switzerland.


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## MOJAVE MO

I can barely wrap my head around what you guys are saying here. But to answer your question ‘Yes’—if a tactical pen is all you’ve got, then make it work. I was born in the ‘64 in the US and grew up on a dairy farm. It was just like you see in the movies. Shotgun behind the door, deer rifle in the truck, six shooter on the hip with a fixed blade knife on the other hip and a folder in the pocket. All tools, plain and simple. Knowing what I know now and If I had to live in one of your countries I would carry an ebony cane with a heavy handle. If it was raining a lot I’d have a weighted umbrella with me. When it comes to self defense it is best to keep the violence out of reach if possible. Using a tactical pen or a stripped Leatherman means you’d better be ready and raging mad to keep hammering away while blood is drenching your hand and making things hard to hold onto. I’ve spent almost 30 years working for Uncle Sam and needed to carry a pistol for the majority of that time. The difficulty with self defense is the reality that it isn’t like scaring a mean dog away. You need to be ready to tear flesh and break bones to potentially save your own life or that of a loved one.


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## Chicxulub

Where you a policeman? Hope the question isn't too brisk.

And I would maybe take a steel rod. maybe like 25-30cm and 1cm thick. one had it just coincidentally in reach.

streets in europe are getting more and more unsafe. 20 years before, they were some of the safest in the world. but now...


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## MOJAVE MO

Chicxulub said:


> Where you a policeman? Hope the question isn't too brisk.
> 
> And I would maybe take a steel rod. maybe like 25-30cm and 1cm thick. one had it just coincidentally in reach.


 No, not a policeman, they don’t have any fun. I was more like a bodyguard for people that have a lot of enemies.


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## Chicxulub

If you want real nice solid metal pens, check out this pen manufactory in the black forest.
might be the most noble pens in the world. 
(for a swiss they are easy to obtain)

Black Forest Pen - Kugelschreiber aus dem Schwarzwald (blackforest-pen.de)


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## Sean Khan

Chicxulub said:


> Where you a policeman?


Oh no... Mo ain't no cop. Ask him his real name... "I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude!"








Jokes apart... I have seen people who worked for a govt. And he talks just like them. Sez a lot without actually giving away anything.



Chicxulub said:


> And I would maybe take a steel rod. maybe like 25-30cm


You mean an expanding baton? Saved my life once. Extremely effective.


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## Sean Khan

I've been practicing... on and off... some kind of martial art since before I was ten. And in my opinion, if you are not trained in even basic hand to hand, carrying a tactical pen won't help you in any way.

Knuckle dusters are for amateurs who don't know they'll break their own fingers when they use those. 🤣

Stun guns are also over-hyped garbage. Taser.... will work on one guy, not on two. And if you are confronted by the mythical Arab refugee mob... well they never mug you alone. Arabs are a mob people.

Best self defense tool? Knife, of course. But are you prepared to draw blood??? Are you prepared to deal with the "good guys"... the legal system... later? I sure am not.

So there is only ONE weapon that actually works and can stop more than one attacker in their tracks INSTANTLY (I have seen it used).

*Pepper spray. *Get a dispenser that fits on a key chain. Nobody can even see you are armed. Look for a brand called "Sabre Red".








And get basic training, THEN you can dream of tactical pens or expanding batons.

Jason Bourne, we are not. 🤣


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## Valery

Kubotan is quite effective, but only in the hands of a trained person. Without training and proper striking technique it is almost useless. It's movie heroes who kill enemies with a pencil, but in real life there are few supermen. 
For the average person, a punch-dagger is more suitable, because it is an extension of the fist, but these knives are probably also banned in Europe. 
I think that for a person with no training, the best option for a non-lethal weapon is a quality gas canister.


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## Sean Khan

Thanks for summarizing what I wrote, mate. Much appreciated. 

Here be the three tactical pens I carry. One is a mechanical pencil. The other is a heavy stainless steel pen with a tungsten carbide attack head.. "glass breaker" (will also go through a skull). And the last one (top one) is the most dangerous... I made that myself.
















When I am really serious, I can always carry my gun (apart from a knife). Tactical pens are just a back up.

If you depend on these for your primary defense... and you have no concept of hand to hand fighting... you deserve getting nailed. Seriously.


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## Pebble Shooter

Some interesting viewpoints. 

Essentially, the best self defense is avoiding trouble in the first place, and so-called "situational awareness" is paramount here. Most of us do not keep up with combat sport techniques to be in a top notch preparation condition for an unexpected attack, and we simply are not collectively conditioned to aggressive behavior - quite on the contrary. Moreover, the right to self defense related criminal law in most countries is such that any reaction deemed excessive in court can take the victim straight to jail. 

Indeed, the right to self defense is limited to actions that are proportional to the type of attack. If guns and knives are no option as is the case in most Western and Asian countries, all that is left is pepper spray and a Kubotan or tactical pen-type self defense tool, and in many cases, not even that. 

The old adage from a gentleman named Oliver Goldsmith comes to mind: "He who fights and runs away may live to fight another day. But he who is battle slain can never rise to fight again". From this perspective, it makes sense that most people out there, being untrained in hand-to-hand combat in a generally peaceful society, will benefit from something like pepper spray or a tactical pen to gain valuable time for an escape to safety. This is what really counts, not to mention the truly thin line between effective non-lethal self defense and the law. 

This is also why US gun laws allowing citizens to be armed with lethal force make absolute sense in my opinion. Bad guys will think twice before trying their evil plans. This gives the weaker members in society a chance.

Sean, I do not think that anyone "deserves to be nailed" (!!!) if they are innocent victims going about their daily lives, and are not fully trained and experienced in martial arts: that is the case of the clear majority in society.


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## Sandstorm

Even the leatherman saws?! Man they’ve really clipped your wings over there. 😞


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## Sean Khan

Pebble Shooter said:


> the right to self defense related criminal law in most countries is such that any reaction deemed excessive in court can take the victim straight to jail.


In case of a gun:

1. Intruder gets one shot to the chest while on your property AND you used a weapon licensed in your name AND IF the intruder is also armed.... You are good. No judge can send you to jail.

2. You shot the guy in the back. Oops. Not so good.... self defense becomes debatable. You might win if the bad guy had a gun on him.

3. You shot him twice. Self-defense in doubt. You are in big trouble.

4. You shot him with an unlicensed weapon. Your life is over.



Pebble Shooter said:


> being untrained in hand-to-hand combat in a generally peaceful society, will benefit from something like pepper spray or a tactical pen to gain valuable time for an escape to safety


Untrained person will benefit from pepper spray. Not so much from a tactical pen.

Before pepper spray, women used to carry red chili powder mixed with black pepper in their purses. Also works.

One more weapon I failed to mention is a walking stick. I sometimes like carrying a walking stick. Just because I like the style. And I can tell you... when people look at me and I look back, they turn their eyes away. *Eye contact broken*. Otherwise, people have "lazy eyes"... they stare at you just because they can. *That ends*. And that also ends the start of any potential trouble. Wearing dark shades also has similar effect... see my pic. 

Seems to be human instinct of some sort to be afraid of a walking stick.













Pebble Shooter said:


> Sean, I do not think that anyone "deserves to be nailed" (!!!) if they are innocent victims going about their daily lives


No innocent victim deserves to be nailed. But if an untrained person thinks they can do THIS (see video below), they are headed for grief.

I believe this movie and this scene from that movie started the tactical pen thing:








Sandstorm said:


> Man they’ve really clipped your wings over there.


Thank Allah I'm Asian. 

EDIT:

Forgot to mention the most important thing.... I think the idea behind the tactical pen is to look non-aggressive while being ready for aggression. It is not an obvious weapon. Can it kill? *Oh yes! *If it can bash through a coconut, it can bash through a human skull (yes I tested it).

But there is something else that is also very useful. *Steel capped boots*. They work. They save you from hurt. And you get to take out someone's knees easily. And they don't look aggressive.

*And for certain people who have English comprehension issues... I am not "endorsing*" *or advocating violence. This is a hypothetical discussion and this is how all self-defense people talk... "what if..." *

So chill.


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## Chicxulub

Sean Khan said:


> You mean an expanding baton? Saved my life once. Extremely effective.


They are not allowed to be used out of ones property at least here in germoney.

I have one for home defense, along with a machete, a boar dagger...

I agree on pepper spray. very effective.


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## Sean Khan

As I said, it saved my life once... but these batons are often very cheap and made of un-tempered steel. So it bent and wouldn't close again (but it had done it's job). I bought another one the next day. And I made something in my own workshop that's far better.

I think the question is... if you are stuck in a bad situation... are you most likely to deal with one or two attackers ... where a tactical pen might work... or are you going to have a mob come at you?

It is different for each country. I have only ever been attacked by a pair. It's always a pair.

In India, next door, on the other hand, being attacked by a mob seems the norm.

In both cases, pepper spray will work.

And if you think you are a martial arts expert... this is how martial arts experts get nailed... they learn nunchucks.  ... the most USELESS overrated martial arts weapon ever. It was created by morons for morons. An expandable baton actually works without going through the risk of hurting yourself.

Second most useless weapon is a knuckle duster. It works... but it'll work even better if you chuck it at someone like a rock. Why did one even spend money on that poop.... I was just curious.


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## Royleonard

You have to become the weapon and become a raging animal then everything you grab becomes a instrument of destruction.people have been killed with rocks,sticks and hammers but rage is what caused the death!


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## MOJAVE MO

So when Pepper Spray was being packaged for public use myself and a few associates were given a box of ‘this stuff’ to go run some tests and take some notes for the manufacturer. We were all staying in a hotel in Miami and decided to open a window (yea, you used to be able to open hotel windows) and shoot a spray out the window to see what kind of distance we’d get. I am sure many of you can tell the story from here right? Since we were around 25 floors up and the sea breeze was blowing the spray ionized and got sucked right back into the hotel room! 😳 Six guys screaming and cussing and blowing snot all over the place. Good times. We had all had experience with how to keep from getting dead from gas discharge, but this surprise attack was, well, a surprise! 🤣 Speaking of which. Do you know why Bill Cosby’s eyes are always red during sex? It’s the Pepper Spray.


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## HOE

Sean Khan said:


> I've been practicing... on and off... some kind of martial art since before I was ten. And in my opinion, if you are not trained in even basic hand to hand, carrying a tactical pen won't help you in any way.
> 
> Knuckle dusters are for amateurs who don't know they'll break their own fingers when they use those. 🤣
> 
> Stun guns are also over-hyped garbage. Taser.... will work on one guy, not on two. And if you are confronted by the mythical Arab refugee mob... well they never mug you alone. Arabs are a mob people.
> 
> Best self defense tool? Knife, of course. But are you prepared to draw blood??? Are you prepared to deal with the "good guys"... the legal system... later? I sure am not.
> 
> So there is only ONE weapon that actually works and can stop more than one attacker in their tracks INSTANTLY (I have seen it used).
> 
> *Pepper spray. *Get a dispenser that fits on a key chain. Nobody can even see you are armed. Look for a brand called "Sabre Red".
> View attachment 354594
> 
> And get basic training, THEN you can dream of tactical pens or expanding batons.
> 
> Jason Bourne, we are not. 🤣


Exactly what you say, if you're not ready to fight, no amount of weapons will help. Anything will be used as weapon in emergency.


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## Sean Khan

Pebble Shooter said:


> something like pepper spray or a tactical pen to gain valuable time for an escape to safety....non-lethal self defense...


Pepper spray WILL give you time to get away or do worse to the bad guy. You have plenty of time once the guy's breathing is compromised and eyes are not working so good ... he can't do much to you right then because he feels like he is dying.

A tactical pen will most likely only give you time to get away if the injury caused by the pen is bad enough for you to get some jail time. Who told you a tactical pen is non-lethal??? It is "less than lethal"... not "non-lethal". It can even go lethal by accident.



Royleonard said:


> become a raging animal


Arrogance and indignation are more useful than rage.


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## MikeyLikesIt

I always wonder about how effective those things are. I worked with a tow truck driver for a few years. Avg build, no real fight training except the occasional scrap. He did a repo job once and the owner of the car came out and attacked him with a 3" folding knife. The driver took 7 puncture wounds, including one to his neck, before he beat the brakes off the other guy with his fists. The driver recovered from his wounds later, but at the time he said he didn't even feel the knife, and didn't even know the other guy had it till he'd been stabbed a couple times. He still managed to beat the other guy into a puddle and could have easily killed him before succumbing to his own injuries. 

I work with patients at a mental hospital and we restrain them frequently. I'm 6'1" and 220lbs, but I've been ragdolled by guys 6" shorter and 40lbs lighter. When they're hopped up on drugs or fearing for their life they're just way too strong for one person to handle (of course we're trying not to harm them either). 

I guess what I'm getting at is it may just come down to the mentality and demeanor of the assailant. A pen is better than nothing, but if someone's blood is up there's a good chance they won't be deterred unless they take major damage to their skeletal or nervous system. I don't know if pain will be much of a deterrent. If someone is just trying to grab your wallet and scared/nervous, you can probably chase them off a little easier though. 

Good luck out there and stay safe! If immigration laws are relaxing over there maybe I should take another look. Switzerland was always on my short list of European countries I'd like to move to, but when did research it seemed pretty difficult to move there, let alone find a job in my field.


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## Chicxulub

Come as a refugee... you will achieve full around care, a new flat, lots of money, children-money... and more money, money... at least in a country in the EU. don't need to ever work again. germany isn't so much different than switzerland...
It's very disgiusting as how (corrupt) politicians turn our countries in a shit hole.


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## SteveJ

Chicxulub said:


> Come as a refugee... you will achieve full around care, a new flat, lots of money, children-money... and more money, money... at least in a country in the EU. don't need to ever work again. germany isn't so much different than switzerland...
> It's very disgiusting as how (corrupt) politicians turn our countries in a shit hole.


sound like what sleepy joe and his ilk are doing to America, makes me sick!!


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## SteveJ

I got me and wife one of these, Im sure she would never use it, my idea is if I get a overzealous panhandler. they are at stoplights all over , I keep it in my air conditioner vent, my trucks old Im not worried about it, a jab to a forearm hopefully would deter a mildly ambitious bum, my SIL wont ride w/ window down, Im not ready to bend that far


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## Pebble Shooter

Mikey, I would assume that your professional activity and experience is in demand in Switzerland, depending on your specialization. Check this out:






Non-EU/EFTA nationals







www.sem.admin.ch





and 









Survey highlights staff shortages in Swiss nursing homes


Nursing homes in Switzerland increasingly struggle to recruit enough skilled personnel and health workers say they have reached their limits in terms of the provision of quality healthcare.




www.swissinfo.ch





In Switzerland, it boils down to two distinct situations in terms of self defense: 

Anyone with a firearms acquisition certificate can buy handguns and semi-auto rifles. You do not require an acquisition certificate to buy bolt action charged hunting rifles, or standard shotguns: the store merely has to announce the ID of the buyer and the details of the rifles purchased to the cantonal police ("notification requirement"). You are only authorized to take firearms of any kind to the shooting range or for hunting (the latter involves a difficult theoretical test to get a license, relatively few people go hunting here). Firearms carrying licenses are extremely difficult to get without a valid reason. 

*Thus, most gun owners have to leave their firearms at home* (no legal obligation to keep them in a locked safe, though), where they could hypothetically use them against an intruder, but only if they are in imminent danger of severe physical harm or death. No "stand your ground" in Switzerland. Swiss judges will apparently take into account the high levels of distress related to situations of violent attacks and self defense means used under such circumstances, which also implies that the legal rule of proportionality (attack vs defense) might be subject to a waiver with regard to excessive force. 

*Outdoors and in the streets is a different story, as all you are legally entitled to carry is a pepper spray*, which is very effective if used correctly. A tactical pen is legal to carry, but might be confiscated by a police officer who feels that you are carrying a "dangerous object" without a valid reason in a public area. Carrying certain knives is legal too (only asymmetrical blades, or Karambit knives, all of which are not considered as "weapons" under Swiss law), but these are also classed as "dangerous objects" that may be confiscated if you happen to be subject to a body search by the police (extremely rare, unless one draws attention in a bad way). From what I read about this interesting subject, many people carry concealed legal knives in Switzerland these days, particularly the younger generations. As I said, things are not what they used to be.

The bottom line is that you can legally carry and use a pepper spray to defend yourself in the streets, but can use a firearm against intruders in your home in a case of a deadly threat. In this context, the tactical pen could be a possible backup tool if ever the spray fails for any reason. Something like a Karambit knife is doubtlessly a nasty game changer under certain circumstances, but also a significant risk in terms of a potential lethal outcome - not to mention that you need to know what you're doing. 

A tactical pen takes somewhat less specific training in absolute terms, and is less likely to generate a lethal outcome. Chances are that the courts would take a dim view of knives as opposed to a tactical pen. 

If I were in the US, I would opt for a firearm, no question about it.


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## SteveJ

Pebble Shooter said:


> Mikey, I would assume that your professional activity and experience is in demand in Switzerland, depending on your specialization. Check this out:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Non-EU/EFTA nationals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sem.admin.ch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Survey highlights staff shortages in Swiss nursing homes
> 
> 
> Nursing homes in Switzerland increasingly struggle to recruit enough skilled personnel and health workers say they have reached their limits in terms of the provision of quality healthcare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.swissinfo.ch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Switzerland, it boils down to two distinct situations in terms of self defense:
> 
> Anyone with a firearms acquisition certificate can buy handguns and semi-auto rifles. You do not require an acquisition certificate to buy bolt action charged hunting rifles, or standard shotguns: the store merely has to announce the ID of the buyer and the details of the rifles purchased to the cantonal police ("notification requirement"). You are only authorized to take firearms of any kind to the shooting range or for hunting (the latter involves a difficult theoretical test to get a license, relatively few people go hunting here). Firearms carrying licenses are extremely difficult to get without a valid reason.
> 
> *Thus, most gun owners have to leave their firearms at home* (no legal obligation to keep them in a locked safe, though), where they could hypothetically use them against an intruder, but only if they are in imminent danger of severe physical harm or death. No "stand your ground" in Switzerland. Swiss judges will apparently take into account the high levels of distress related to situations of violent attacks and self defense means used under such circumstances, which also implies that the legal rule of proportionality (attack vs defense) might be subject to a waiver with regard to excessive force.
> 
> *Outdoors and in the streets is a different story, as all you are legally entitled to carry is a pepper spray*, which is very effective if used correctly. A tactical pen is legal to carry, but might be confiscated by a police officer who feels that you are carrying a "dangerous object" without a valid reason in a public area. Carrying certain knives is legal too (only asymmetrical blades, or Karambit knives, all of which are not considered as "weapons" under Swiss law), but these are also classed as "dangerous objects" that may be confiscated if you happen to be subject to a body search by the police (extremely rare, unless one draws attention in a bad way). From what I read about this interesting subject, many people carry concealed legal knives in Switzerland these days, particularly the younger generations. As I said, things are not what they used to be.
> 
> The bottom line is that you can legally carry and use a pepper spray to defend yourself in the streets, but can use a firearm against intruders in your home in a case of a deadly threat. In this context, the tactical pen could be a possible backup tool if ever the spray fails for any reason. Something like a Karambit knife is doubtlessly a nasty game changer under certain circumstances, but also a significant risk in terms of a potential lethal outcome - not to mention that you need to know what you're doing.
> 
> A tactical pen takes somewhat less specific training in absolute terms, and is less likely to generate a lethal outcome. Chances are that the courts would take a dim view of knives as opposed to a tactical pen.
> 
> If I were in the US, I would opt for a firearm, no question about it.


 Is pepper spray really work? Ive never been sprayed so I dont know


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## treefork

SteveJ said:


> Is pepper spray really work? Ive never been sprayed so I dont know


It works . I've seen it disable some big tough guys .I've experienced a shot in a training scenario so I can appreciate it's effect . It's not for all situations of course but a useful non lethal alternative for many situations . Works for aggressive dogs also .


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## Pebble Shooter

Well, according to these US Marines who faced the "test", yes:






Sooner them than me.


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## Frisky

I have decades of experience in self-defense, right out on the streets. Pepper spray is the way to go, as you don't want an attacker (yes, I've been attacked more than once) getting near you! You don't want to make physical contact with an attacker or you've already lost, in my opinion. Situational awareness is key, avoid questionable situations if you can. However, there are times when trouble comes looking for you out of the blue. By the way, pepper spray is worthless if you don't train with it. I still train, daily, with it. If you don't train, you won't even remember you have it with you when you need it most! Even with a high level of training, you'll react differently when adrenaline hits you. If you can't carry spray, due to laws, the heavy walking stick or cane is the way to go. I made one for my brother he uses when out walking through his woods. If attacked by a four-legged creature, he can keep it at a distance. 

Joe


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## mattwalt

Kubotans and tactical pens - are illegal in most of the EU and UK. Its seen as a weapon - so its literally an issue - and Kubotans are specifically mentioned. Also in many places having something which is essentially a concealed weapon such as a knife which resembles a key or a pen as Kubotan... You'd need to have a very plausible excuse for carrying (and hope the officer is in a good understanding mood). And heaven forbid you use it on someone - without proof of a valid reason you're in trouble - and the fact you're carrying something to inflict injury in the first place you're going to be in huge trouble. You got to check your laws. Having first hand info from police - the only 'plausible' self defence item you can legally carry is hairspray - and as a guy explaining that is going to get interesting.

Oh - lets also not forget pepper spray is also illegal.


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## Sandstorm

mattwalt said:


> Kubotans and tactical pens - are illegal in most of the EU and UK. Its seen as a weapon - so its literally an issue - and Kubotans are specifically mentioned. Also in many places having something which is essentially a concealed weapon such as a knife which resembles a key or a pen as Kubotan... You'd need to have a very plausible excuse for carrying (and hope the officer is in a good understanding mood). And heaven forbid you use it on someone - without proof of a valid reason you're in trouble - and the fact you're carrying something to inflict injury in the first place you're going to be in huge trouble. You got to check your laws. Having first hand info from police - the only 'plausible' self defence item you can legally carry is hairspray - and as a guy explaining that is going to get interesting.


Quick, ban the hairspray!! 😜. Good to see you back Matt. We were all thinking of you, man.


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## Frisky

Now, if legal, a slingshot can be an effective self-defense weapon, but I wouldn't advise it. I'll relate a situation I found myself in, last Sunday. It was 3PM, and I decided to walk down to the river and do some shooting with a heavy-pulling slingshot and 3/8" bearings. Since it's a fairly safe town and was in broad daylight, I decided to leave my pepper spray at home. I figured I wouldn't run into trouble, but if I did, at least I'd have a beast of a slingshot with me, lol! A few blocks from the river, I neared a large, open intersection. Suddenly, a shirtless teenager, probably around 18, appeared in the road and started chasing cars and cursing at them, while flipping them the bird. He was extremely agitated, and my path was on a collision course with him! I made a quick decision to cut to the north and walk away and behind him, all the while watching without making direct eye-contact. He continued on, walking by out in front of me and never looked at me or said a word. I had already loaded a bearing in the pouch but didn't show my weapon. As he continued down the street, he'd scream obscenities and kick at trees, mad as heck, but he left me alone, lol! Had I not changed course, I could have found myself in a confrontation. Never take your eyes off of a potential threat, but don't make direct eye-contact, if you can help it, and turn away from the threat without turning your back to it. 

Joe


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## Sean Khan

Frisky said:


> Pepper spray is the way to go


Yep.

BUT do not use... never ever.... :

1. Indoors.
2. If the bad guy has a gun. He'll be in pain and will start firing blind.

In my experience, pepper spray is best used in road rage incidents when the guy gets out of his car and walks towards you in a threatening manner cussing at you for taking his parking spot (yes the world is full of nutters).

Once dosed, the guy can't follow you for at least half an hour. Just left them by their ride trying to wipe their face (which makes it worse).... never hit anyone, never needed to, once you spray them. Go enjoy your parking spot. It's all yours.



Frisky said:


> You don't want to make physical contact with an attacker


Well, in my case, bad guy had a gun and was sticking it in my back. Once physical contact is there, you have no choice. Either get it over with in 3 seconds or you're a goner. I solved the problem in under half a second. 🤣



Frisky said:


> the heavy walking stick or cane is the way to go


AND it can never be banned. No matter where you live.



mattwalt said:


> Oh - lets also not forget pepper spray is also illegal.


But it's defensive.... Is this all over Europe or just some places?

They ran out of my favorite brand, Sabre Red. So I got this instead.. don't know if it's illegal in Germany.. if yes, then they have allowed it for export at least.

Remember to put it in the fridge for long term storage.


















Frisky said:


> slingshot....I wouldn't advise it


Yep. Slingshots are great for one shot ambush. Not for self defense... reload time sucks.


----------



## Chicxulub

CS is allowed for use against humans, pepper only for animals in germany.
but for self defense pepper is still allowed against humans, if its the only option to handle the threat and justifies serious bodily harm. pepper is more painful and the effect is always there, whilst to CS some people are immune and some don't... pepper also goes into skin.


----------



## mattwalt

Broadly speaking in the EU/UK - if it can be used as a weapon (pepper spray included) its illegal for public carry. In Portugal we are able to carry a <90mm fixed blade. But if you use on someone, even for self defence you're in deep. Obviously countries have their own laws or variations on the laws - So you need to be 100% sure whats applicable.


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## Chicxulub

@mattwalt A bit OT:
Are airguns allowed to own in portugal? Is there a limitation in power or caliber?

maybe one day, i want to move to your country, and I have a collection of them.
Oh, and whats with Crossbows...?


----------



## mattwalt

Yeah - it can be OTT - the UK is especially harsh. But interesting in how laws are applied. For instance in the UK you can own a sword or a dagger etc. but may not carry it publicly (without a good valid reason), even then if the officer who catches you with it is in a bad mood you could end up in some serious legal trouble - I've heard stories where SAK's have ended up in legal costs because the officer deemed it a weapon (even though its 100% legal carry). Remember in an infraction you're guilty until proven innocent... However in Portugal a dagger is 100% illegal to even own, and a sword requires a firearms licence...

Airguns are no problem in Portugal, as long as you're over 18. Unlike the UK I believe there arn't even power limits - but unsure if there are caliber ones. Crossbows and bows are also fine, though again over 18 to purchase. But to hunt (now matter what with) you need to be a member of a hunting association and have passed an exam including written and practical proficiency... Far as I am aware also all currently in Portuguese. 

Hunting with arrows in the UK is illegal. So while you can own crossbows and bows there - its only for target shooting.

Also it must be emphasised intent. If you buy something with the intension of using it for self defence it becomes an offensive weapon and would by that case become illegal, and if used as such even if your life was threatened could also end up in jail. But if its for target practice (and can prove) and happen to use in a life-threatening attack - then its technically fine. But you'll have a fair amount of explaining to do regardless.

Its also should be stressed what is considered as a violent attack... One weird one was rape in the UK. The act of rape is considered violet only until penetration after which its no longer seen as such. So if you happened to fight someone off at that point you would actually be accused of assault. That one does my head in.


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## Sean Khan

Just come here, go to the bazaar, buy a cheeseburger and skip the fries.

Use the money you saved on the fries to buy the cheapest gun in Pakistan. 
(a foreigner can't own a gun, btw... this is just hypothetical universe talk)






*Now THIS is a "tactical pen".* Pretty sure it'll be illegal in most places around the world. Like I know for sure your life will be over if you are found with one of these at Dubai airport.... hippy no more!


----------



## mattwalt

SK - now I fully understand all the self-inflicted gun wound videos on Youtube from Pakistan ;-P


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## Sean Khan

errr... we don't talk about those ..... 🤣

About this "tactical pen"... it's .25 caliber. The bullet never has an exit wound.. surgeon will have to fish it out. Hair trigger... no safety whatsoever. Do not keep it cocked... it WILL go off if you breathe on it. Price.. from Rs.700 to Rs.1500. Ammo is Rs.20/bullet.

It's a nasty surprise weapon. And it is never used by the bad guys... no muggings ever with this... don't know why. But that's a good thing. This thing scares me more than a 9mm.


----------



## Pebble Shooter

Every European (EU) country actually has its own specific weapon laws, in spite of fairly strict EU regulations:

Kubotans are illegal in Swizerland, but tactical pens are legal. Why? Because some shop owner in the city of St. Gallen imported 24 tactical pens from the US a few years ago, was indicted by Swiss customs who classified them as Kubutans (weapons under Swiss law), but was later judged innocent of any wrongdoing because the Swiss court concerned deemed the tactical pens to be writing instruments, i.e, like regular ballpoint pens, in spite of their pointed steel tips. Thus, it is perfectly legal to carry a tactical pen with you in the streets, as Swiss law does not view it as a weapon. This is important when it comes to self defense situations, because a judge will then merely look at whether the defense method used was justified with regard to the type of attack. Anything classed as a weapon make things far worse if your reaction to an attacker is deemed excessive by the court.

Pepper spray, which is not classified as a weapon in Switzerland either, can be carried by anyone above age 18 without a permit or whatever, but should only be used to ward off serious attacks. The pepper spray dispenser should not look like a handgun; anything that is shaped like a gun is considered to be a weapon. Swiss law also allows the carrying of certain manually opened or fixed bladed knives with asymmetric blades that are not classified as weapons. However, the latter are viewed as "dangerous objects" in the eyes of the law, and can be confiscated by the police if you do not come up with a very good reason for having a knife or screwdriver in your pocket - like in the middle of town. No problems when out hiking, or looking for slingshot forks in the woods.

For those of you who wonder how Swiss gun laws compare with those of the US, have a look at this link:






Fedlex







www.fedlex.admin.ch





German law is quite interesting, because you are allowed to carry a "Schreckschusspistole", i.e. pistols or revolvers that use 9 mm (.38 caliber) blank cartridges, including special 9 mm pepper blanks for self defense. Anyone wishing to do this has to apply for the "kleiner Waffenschein" (restricted gun permit of sorts), which is issued without any major issues at a cost of roughly 50 Euros, providing one has no criminal record. Those guns reach out to 3 to 4 meters (10 to 12 feet), and are dangerous to anyone closer than 1 meter (3 feet) from the muzzle. Tear gas and pepper sprays can be purchased and carried without restrictions for self defense.

Similar laws apply in Austria, where anyone above 18 can carry a "Schreckschuss Pistole" (gun that shoots 9 mm blanks) for self-defense purposes. No license of any kind is required there. No problems either with pepper sprays of various kinds, including this "bad boy":






JPX6 | Piexon AG







www.piexon.com





Just out of interest, I looked up the laws in France. In the land of the snail eaters, pepper spray, Kubutans, and tactical pens are classed as "category D weapons" that are illegal to carry in the streets. Carrying a knife of any kind will land you in very serious trouble. Firearms are strictly controlled, but strangely enough, anyone above age 18 can buy a black powder muzzle loaded revolver without a license, and even use it in the back yard if it is safe to do so, and providing that neighbors do not complain about the noise. Did I say paradox?

Spain seems to be extremely restrictive with anything that barely resembles a weapon: forget pepper spray, kubotans, knives, and do not carry an slingshot with you either if you do not want to spend a miserable time at the "guardia civil". Then again, Spain is one of the safest countries in the world according to crime stats.

I don't know how Portugal compares in this respect.

Interesting variations.


----------



## mattwalt

Portugal - Know Q looked up and couldn't find any laws regarding slingshots here. All firearms are restricted but fairly easy to get a sporting arm with a licence if you can prove reasonable use - and continue to do so every few years. You may cary any sort of knife (as long as its not designed as a weapon and is under 90mm in blade length). Air rifles no problem. All weapons that are designed to inflict any sort of injury are illegal even to simply own. Including Bowie knives - which is an odd one as it probably makes most hunting knives illegal, but assume they refer to more Texas Toothpick styles. Been looking into black powder here - but seems to be restricted along with other firearms. Seems you can get blank firing guns. Not sure about flobert guns - which could be interesting...


----------



## mattwalt

Something I don't get is that you can go to many 'Tabac' shops and buy a tactical knife no problem. Though think the Portuguese apply the law based on infractions. So if you caught in possession after use illegally you het the whole law book thrown at you... vs say the UK where you could be simply searched for possessive carry...


----------



## Reed Lukens

Unfortunately, fighting the government for your rights is out... England tried to ban weapons in all of the countries that they took over and this is the case in most of Europe... The old Blackthorn Walking stick should be legal in some areas -


https://www.knifecenter.com/item/CS91PBS/cold-steel-91pbs-irish-blackthorn-walking-stick



But here in rural America, I prefer to keep trouble at a distance and a nice little hand held grenade launcher fits the bill just fine. Walk in, buy it, load it & carry it home... Life would be so very boring under English rule... It's hard to believe that everything is illegal overseas, but the government will keep it that way if you let them have their way. They've been trying to outlaw weapons world wide... for your own safety? Forever... Start a militia and fight back! A Tactical pen? No... Walking stick or cane - yes.


----------



## treefork




----------



## JimmyRustler2244

Pebble Shooter said:


> Unlike the US, many jurisdictions around the world do not allow their citizens to carry loaded firearms for self defense in the streets, many view knives as a contentious issue as a potentially lethal weapon in terms of proportional means of defense relative to the type of attack, some will barely allow Kubotans and tactical pens to keep two legged trouble at bay, and some at least allow pepper spray. In countries such as the UK and Spain, forget the very concept of self defense, because all of the above are prohibited. No "stand your ground" there, more like "run away fast, if you can". Great.
> 
> Kubotans and tactical pens seem to make sense when it comes to relatively non-lethal E.D.C defense tools, as the attacker may suffer some rather nasty bruises and possibly worse if hit in the face, but will most likely live to see another day. This is crucial because of a tendency of judges here in Europe to be lenient with the perpetrators, while legally hammering the innocent victim who decided to make a proactive response to the attacker with a suitable defense tool. There is plenty of case law where the victim ended up in jail, whereas the perpetrator(s) left court to freedom. Thankfully, Samuel Colt and legislators thought differently on your side of the pond. "Make my day" has well founded origins.
> 
> I've been looking at tactical pens as an interesting option, as it does not draw any particular attention (it's just a ballpoint pen with a pointed metal tube, right?), and that it is fully legal to carry here in Switzerland - as opposed to kubutans, for some twisted legal logic I fail to understand. I find so-called "knuckle dusters" quite interesting too, but these are totally banned in most of Europe. This is strange, considering that a fully legal pointed tactical pen has the potential of inflicting some really serious injury to an assailant from someone with the right skills in the heat of the moment.
> 
> If you're now thinking "why does he need a self defense tool in the land of chocolate & watches"...well, fully open borders to the EU have also attracted criminal folks out for easy money in a wealthy country, and an influx of "culturally interesting" (I'm being very polite here) new folks from Arabia and Africa seeking asylum in Switzerland, a trend encouraged by the do-gooder leftist parties, have not done much good in terms of felt safety in city streets. Quite sad really, because it really was very safe here until about 15-20 years ago.
> 
> So, what is your opinion on a defense tool with which you can both write and strike?


In most cases, a tactical torch with a 1,000 lumen+ Output and a strobe setting will serve you well as a self defense tool, I carry an Olight M18 almost everywhere. It has a crenellated bezel too, for nasty stuff.

Otherwise, get some 8mm PVC coated rigging cable, cut it to length, and carry it in your trouser belt loops. It makes for a great whip. 👍


----------



## JimmyRustler2244

Reed Lukens said:


> Unfortunately, fighting the government for your rights is out... England tried to ban weapons in all of the countries that they took over and this is the case in most of Europe... The old Blackthorn Walking stick should be legal in some areas -
> 
> 
> https://www.knifecenter.com/item/CS91PBS/cold-steel-91pbs-irish-blackthorn-walking-stick
> 
> 
> 
> But here in rural America, I prefer to keep trouble at a distance and a nice little hand held grenade launcher fits the bill just fine. Walk in, buy it, load it & carry it home... Life would be so very boring under English rule... It's hard to believe that everything is illegal overseas, but the government will keep it that way if you let them have their way. They've been trying to outlaw weapons world wide... for your own safety? Forever... Start a militia and fight back! A Tactical pen? No... Walking stick or cane - yes.
> View attachment 354671


Crikey, what are you planning on killing with that, the Bismarck? 🤣👍


----------



## JimmyRustler2244

Sean Khan said:


> In case of a gun:
> 
> 1. Intruder gets one shot to the chest while on your property AND you used a weapon licensed in your name AND IF the intruder is also armed.... You are good. No judge can send you to jail.
> 
> 2. You shot the guy in the back. Oops. Not so good.... self defense becomes debatable. You might win if the bad guy had a gun on him.
> 
> 3. You shot him twice. Self-defense in doubt. You are in big trouble.
> 
> 4. You shot him with an unlicensed weapon. Your life is over.
> 
> 
> Untrained person will benefit from pepper spray. Not so much from a tactical pen.
> 
> Before pepper spray, women used to carry red chili powder mixed with black pepper in their purses. Also works.
> 
> One more weapon I failed to mention is a walking stick. I sometimes like carrying a walking stick. Just because I like the style. And I can tell you... when people look at me and I look back, they turn their eyes away. *Eye contact broken*. Otherwise, people have "lazy eyes"... they stare at you just because they can. *That ends*. And that also ends the start of any potential trouble. Wearing dark shades also has similar effect... see my pic.
> 
> Seems to be human instinct of some sort to be afraid of a walking stick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No innocent victim deserves to be nailed. But if an untrained person thinks they can do THIS (see video below), they are headed for grief.
> 
> I believe this movie and this scene from that movie started the tactical pen thing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank Allah I'm Asian.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Forgot to mention the most important thing.... I think the idea behind the tactical pen is to look non-aggressive while being ready for aggression. It is not an obvious weapon. Can it kill? *Oh yes! *If it can bash through a coconut, it can bash through a human skull (yes I tested it).
> 
> But there is something else that is also very useful. *Steel capped boots*. They work. They save you from hurt. And you get to take out someone's knees easily. And they don't look aggressive.
> 
> *And for certain people who have English comprehension issues... I am not "endorsing*" *or advocating violence. This is a hypothetical discussion and this is how all self-defense people talk... "what if..." *
> 
> So chill.


I get what you're saying, the crooks and criminals already know all the tricks, so it's time for honest men and women to learn these tricks in self defense. 👍


----------



## SteveJ

Its sad to see how they have disarmed so many of you across the pond. They want ALL the control. I have a friend " a unarmed one" who has a wife and 3 kids, I asked him what hes going to do if someone breaks in his house,, use harsh language?? he had no answer . Guess there are some great thing about Texas/ Mexico still


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## SteveJ

ps I have NO desire to shoot somebody. When I took my CC class, all these guys asked, "can I shoot them then, can I shoot their tires out etc" like they were just looking for a reason. first off. not trying to take a life,,, also they could be affiliated. which can bring more trouble. and,, even when innocent I understand lawyer fees are upwards of 50K , I may look into some pepper spray, got to find out which ones are best . I dont worry much when Im alone, but when Im with my wife Ive realized Im not the man I used to be physically,, and definately need help protecting her. I probably did always, but didnt realize it lol


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## Sean Khan

JimmyRustler2244 said:


> the crooks and criminals already know all the tricks


Naw... they're all dumb. These aren't exactly safe crackers.

They only win because, one, they do not hesitate. And two, they will take a chance even if they are at risk. Like run through traffic knowing you won't follow because you aren't nuts.

Most of the time, they take a drug to calm themselves. Otherwise, they are terrified. Which is why they pull the trigger if they have a gun... you move wrong and they get scared.



SteveJ said:


> use harsh language


Nope. Use your rape whistle. 🤣
Like so (see at 1.55)




On another forum, there is a lawyer (American), who sez he carries a rape whistle with him all the time. Claims it will solve all his problems and then some. Gun/knife.. what are those? He's from California... ultra-liberal of some kind. I showed him this scene... he got annoyed. Why I don't know.


SteveJ said:


> pepper spray, got to find out which ones are best


Sabre Red. Tried it. Loved it. Claims to be better than others (probably true).

*"Making grown men cry since 1975!"*


----------



## JimmyRustler2244

SteveJ said:


> I may look into some pepper spray, got to find out which ones are best.


There's a company called POM that makes good pepper spray in the U.S, someone mentioned it on Twitter to me a few months back. 👍


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## treefork

SteveJ said:


> Its sad to see how they have disarmed so many of you across the pond. They want ALL the control. I have a friend " a unarmed one" who has a wife and 3 kids, I asked him what hes going to do if someone breaks in his house,, use harsh language?? he had no answer . Guess there are some great thing about Texas/ Mexico still


Don't forget Arizona .


----------



## treefork

This is a good one available on Amazon for $ 13.99


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## HOE

Reed Lukens said:


> Unfortunately, fighting the government for your rights is out... England tried to ban weapons in all of the countries that they took over and this is the case in most of Europe... The old Blackthorn Walking stick should be legal in some areas -
> 
> 
> https://www.knifecenter.com/item/CS91PBS/cold-steel-91pbs-irish-blackthorn-walking-stick
> 
> 
> 
> But here in rural America, I prefer to keep trouble at a distance and a nice little hand held grenade launcher fits the bill just fine. Walk in, buy it, load it & carry it home... Life would be so very boring under English rule... It's hard to believe that everything is illegal overseas, but the government will keep it that way if you let them have their way. They've been trying to outlaw weapons world wide... for your own safety? Forever... Start a militia and fight back! A Tactical pen? No... Walking stick or cane - yes.
> View attachment 354671


Nice grenade launcher for EDC and home defense!

Luckily I don't like in Singapore, just below my place. Everything including machetes, blowguns, folding knives and Natty is illegal! China banned all firearms, but people still kill each other with kitchen knives, and most become expert slingshooters!

Edit: It's funny how these major WW2 countries who developed so many weapons and now trying to ban everything!

China knife attack


----------



## treefork




----------



## treefork




----------



## Frisky

Someone probably mentioned a powerful flashlight for defense. It'll blind an attacker and can also be used to strike someone who is after you. Of course, it's used at night. I seldom carry my big flashlight, but I often carry my pocket laser. I'm an amateur astronomer and use a green laser in locating and pointing out celestial objects. Pointed at an attacker's face, they can't even look in your direction. I have one that was super cheap and has severe light scatter. I found out even the scattered light is blinding! So, I often carry it with me. Totally legal here.

Joe


----------



## Sean Khan

Frisky said:


> I often carry my pocket laser. ... a green laser


This one? These cheap Chinese "303" lasers are everywhere. And they carry a fair amount of infra-red mixed into the green... it can do real damage to the eye. Very bright indeed. 

I keep it on me to use when I'm at the baker's for example... need to point out to the brain-dead help... "no.. up on the top shelf... yeah... no no... to the right... those cupcakes... *oh h311, just follow the green dot!*".


----------



## Sean Khan

Oh... as the topic is "tactical pen"... here is something I sometimes carry on me.. in some ways it's better than a knife but less obvious. See how I made it, here:









See you in Valhalla... after 10 minutes


Just passing through the bazaars, I saw these and got them. Like why not. Motorbike wheel spokes, yeah? So I thought I might make myself a weap.... um... TOOL.... that will have multiple uses. Only problem is, I made it larger than I originally intended. It's 13-something inches. Now I...




www.slingshotforum.com


----------



## Pebble Shooter

OK...so tactical pens don't seem to get a high rating among you, fair enough. I generally agree with your views, and would much rather be able to walk around with a .357 Magnum revolver. Can't do that here, sadly. Knives? Not a great option either if the attacker is armed with a knife as well, and both may die in the process. Running away under such circumstances is the best option, it seems, at least according to what I read in devoted forums: thus, some good Nike running shoes are a good investment.

Therefore, what do you all think about telescopic steel batons instead? The major advantage using a baton is that its use is fairly instinctive, or am I getting that wrong?


----------



## JimmyRustler2244

Batons are pretty straightforward, but it might be worth looking up some stuff on retention (fighting behind the baton, so to speak, if it's grabbed), And different styles of stickfighting to better learn how to use it. Batons are a better alternative to a knife IMO, nobody carries an 18 inch knife, whereas a collapsible baton...

Couple it up with a tactical torch, and you've got a solid setup for self defense.


----------



## ukj

First hand knowledge here from
many many years ago, relative even,
I have a feeling most have heard of or own a "mag lite" "mini mag lite"
or clone, copy?
Started out as D cell long flash light for cops that was also a club weapon
if needed.
K lite from the high desert in CA was the birthplace of this now multimillion dollar business.
Must add that on off and focal beam twist adjust , and halogen
bulb were added after company was
sold for a song, ok as inventer, now dead, just as well, very bad energy!
As a lot of attacks may happen at
night, wonder if club like flashlight would be a "legal" option in many countries?
Has lanyard also so stays with
you.
Of note a strong flashlight using d or c cells has weight and serves as almost
subconcious " shed light on the subject" as non violent deturent which can be a club easy. 
A loud whistle simply worn as neckless
can and has been used with great effect!
I am "illeagle" where I live now as have nunchucks that I know how to use and a big long double edged razor sharp knife well hidden in my car if needed.
ONLY one time in my getting much
longer life did I need to show force in a situation,aggressive drunk drugged guy needed to
see that my nunchuck skill could hurt
him fast and easy, he ran, good choice!
Best choice imho
Avoid times and places where harm could occurr, but maybe be prepaired
just in case.. 
ukj


----------



## Sean Khan

Pebble Shooter said:


> its use is fairly instinctive


Use might be instinctive... it's a stick after all ... mankind's original weapon.... opening and closing it or using it to choke someone out is not as instinctive. You need to be able to swing and open and hit in one movement, for example. Fortunately, it is so simple to learn, you don't need instruction from some "professional"... YouTube video tutorials are good enough.






Can it defeat multiple attackers? Yep.
Can it defeat a knife? Of course it can.
Can it defeat a gun? It did in my case. But then the gun was a fake (I believe). So I got lucky.

If you are worried about some refugee attacking you while you are out on a walkabout ... learn to swear in Arabic... or Afghan. The surprise factor for a second is all you need to punch them in the nose and run off.

Having said all that, there is really no surefire solution other than keeping a Makarov in your pocket. You'll be breaking the law I am sure but you'll be alive at the end of the day.


----------



## Pebble Shooter

...and subsequently in jail for many years in Europe. No "Second Amendment" here, sadly. More like "if attacked, run for it, and good luck" in most of the EU countries, and in the UK.


----------



## JimmyRustler2244

Pebble Shooter said:


> ...and subsequently in jail for many years in Europe. No "Second Amendment" here, sadly. More like "if attacked, run for it, and good luck" in most of the EU countries, and in the UK.



Another major deterrent is a big dog, also. My sister was jogging with her Dalmatian a few years ago, and whilst the dog was running around the park, some guy approached my sister.

Her loving, soft Dalmatian turned into a hellhound in a fraction of a second, and made the guy turn and run.

Dogs are a great deterrent. 👍


----------



## Sean Khan

Yeah... nothing beats having a dog. If you are into that, by all means.... Nobody wants to walk into a dogfight.



Pebble Shooter said:


> More like "if attacked, run for it, and good luck" in most of the EU countries, and in the UK.


There is a person you need to be friends with. That person is stronger than Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, put together. Name of that person is "Lawyer".

Lawyer runs on a special petrol called "Money". If you got that, forget what the legal system can do to you. Just think of how you can be of survive to humanity.

To sum up most useful things from this thread:

1. Walking stick. Learn to fight with it. It's easy and can be learnt watching Youtube alone.
2. Steel toe shoes.
3. Pepper spray.
4. Get some hand to hand combat training.
5. Dog.
6. Phone number of lawyer burned into your memory.

One more thing, that always works. It's actually a joke but it does work.

Print some fake money. Put it in a money clip.. make sure it's a fat juicy bundle. *"Okay.. here take my money...!!!" *throw it to the side while showing panic and run in the opposite direction.

9 times out of 10, they will go to pick up the money and you will get an opening to get away.

I keep a fake mobile phone. It looks real from a foot away. But it's a plastic display model. 🤣

EDIT: Don't print an exact copy of your currency! Or YOU will be committing a crime... just replace your president's picture with your own or something and print "joke money" across it in small text. But it should look real in a money clip from a few feet away, specially in low light. Or put a real Rs.1000 note on the outside of the bundle with ordinary paper on the inside to make it fat....

This distraction will work best if you like to dress nice.. like wear a suit. Won't be believable if you go out dressed like a hippy. Wear a Chinese fake watch. They look very expensive these days but are actually very cheap. Throw that at them too.


----------



## Sean Khan

Buy this online... or make it yourself.






Don't use it against someone waving a gun. But against anyone else, it will solve your problem. Give you opening for follow-up counter attack or simply running away.


----------



## Pedroito

well if you're scared of being arrested for wielding a deadly kubotan, better run and live in terror


----------



## Pebble Shooter

Well, if you don't mind having a police record, be my guest and go ahead. Be careful with French laws, though, because they don't even allow you to carry a pepper spray ("category D weapons"). Forget tactical pens as well, same problem. At least we can legally carry these and pepper spray in Switzerland, as opposed to Kubotans.


----------



## Sean Khan

And stick this fake number plate somewhere on your car.


----------



## treefork

Here is an example of what happens when you have the right to protect yourself . What would have happened if the victim wasn't armed ?


----------



## james00

you can use it to stab or strike someone in self-defense. In fact, there is a modification of a self-defense martial arts weapon called a Kubotan, which is made of a short stick up to 6 inches long. The Reverse Grip or Ice Pick grip is the most efficient way to hold a tactical pen. It is done by securing the tactical pen with its sharp end protruding under your fist and your thumb pressing against the top shaft.


----------



## MakoPat

Sean Khan said:


> Yeah... nothing beats having a dog. If you are into that, by all means.... Nobody wants to walk into a dogfight.
> 
> 
> There is a person you need to be friends with. That person is stronger than Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, put together. Name of that person is "Lawyer".
> 
> Lawyer runs on a special petrol called "Money". If you got that, forget what the legal system can do to you. Just think of how you can be of survive to humanity.
> 
> To sum up most useful things from this thread:
> 
> 1. Walking stick. Learn to fight with it. It's easy and can be learnt watching Youtube alone.
> 2. Steel toe shoes.
> 3. Pepper spray.
> 4. Get some hand to hand combat training.
> 5. Dog.
> 6. Phone number of lawyer burned into your memory.
> 
> One more thing, that always works. It's actually a joke but it does work.
> 
> Print some fake money. Put it in a money clip.. make sure it's a fat juicy bundle. *"Okay.. here take my money...!!!" *throw it to the side while showing panic and run in the opposite direction.
> 
> 9 times out of 10, they will go to pick up the money and you will get an opening to get away.
> 
> I keep a fake mobile phone. It looks real from a foot away. But it's a plastic display model. 🤣
> 
> EDIT: Don't print an exact copy of your currency! Or YOU will be committing a crime... just replace your president's picture with your own or something and print "joke money" across it in small text. But it should look real in a money clip from a few feet away, specially in low light. Or put a real Rs.1000 note on the outside of the bundle with ordinary paper on the inside to make it fat....
> 
> This distraction will work best if you like to dress nice.. like wear a suit. Won't be believable if you go out dressed like a hippy. Wear a Chinese fake watch. They look very expensive these days but are actually very cheap. Throw that at them too.


All of this and the king of all and I haven't read too carefully... so I might have missed it.


Awareness and a buddy.
I used to teach self protection. Not self defense (I mean I taught it, too. But with these caveats. If X happens you have failed and may die. X being any worst case scenario you didn't avoid. )

Self protection is more about avoiding and knowing the dangers you may face.
In the US guns are a high probability for both assailants and victims.

Rule 1. Is always pay attention. 
Rule 2. Is have a buddy who know Rule 1.

OODA loop at all times.
Observe 
Orientate
Decide
Act

OODA loop goals in order.
1. Evade/Escape
2. Hide/Avoid
3. Fortify
least and worst of all
4. Fight for life.


Again like Mojave Mo said... it is hard for me to think of not being able to stand my ground and be unarmed. 

That said and to the original question. 

I have a tactical pen.

It is not a good choice for all the reasons above. 

Too close to contact and too easily recognized as a weapon.

A tool that is used that is deployed as a self defense weapon is better... especially for legal purpose. (Don't talk about its second function online.)

Other than Awareness and Teamwork. 

Learn how to both de-escalate and speak Law Enforcement for when the police get there. (This is self protection)

Sprays also have two types. 

Spray- Not good to use while driving to escape. But if someone is trying to pull into a car... empty the can inside. Faster acting.

Strean Gel- Better is wind and sticks. But is slower acting.


Now there is something called 

Drawing in the Drop. IF a bad guy has the drop on you... your best option may be compliance until you can take an action.

I.e. Bad guy looks away and then you Run/Spray/Smash/Shot them.

I always advice people to train the scenarios with a weapon they believe they will use.

For example most regular people won't sink a machete into another humans face. But they will smack them with a stick or... pull a trigger.

Always have a nonlethal deterant IF you carry lethal force. Have that option.

Y'all be safe and Good Neighbors.


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## EllipsisNL

Invest in a high intensity flashlight. They are the most versatile self defense tools out there by a long shot. They blind an attacker, gives you information while taking it away from them, they give you an air of authority, they even help de escalate.


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