# OTT vs. TTF



## Knotty

Not asking which is best, just what are the advantages and disadvantages of each?

If it helps, I'm shooting a Bill Hays Hathcock Sniper with flat bands, sideways/gangster.

Thanks in advance.


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## LVO

Personally I get handslaps on occasion with OTT. I'm more relaxed and therefore more accurate when shooting TTF. No handslaps regardless of how mismatched ammo and my bands are.
I like the versatility of that frame!


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## Charles

Do not confuse the orientation of the bands at draw with the path of the ammo at release. Unless you are shooting with a strong flip action or using the speed bump effect, your ammo will always pass between your fork tips (unless you unfortunately get a fork hit!).

Over the top band arrangements are more prone to hand slap. Also, OTT arrangements are often noisy, as part of the band contacts the fork tips during contraction. That can also cause abrasion, reducing the life of your bands. However, it is possible to use a much higher grip with OTT, and that greatly reduces the strain on the wrist. On most slingshots, an OTT band arrangement is about the easiest attachment method.

For a Through The Fork band arrangement, the bands at draw pass to the inside of the forks. Through the fork band arrangements are generally not suited for narrow forks. On narrow forks, the bands tend to bunch up in the gap between forks and can often foul the shot. And unless the fork is specially constructed, TTF band arrangements are not that easy to arrange. Also, TTF band arrangements require a lower hold on the frame, which can increase tension on the wrist. However, with wide forks TTF band arrangements are generally very quiet, as the bands tend not to have contact with the frame; and that also means that all things considered, your bands will last a little longer.

If you are using the Sniper, you would probably do well with an Outside The Forks band arrangement ... the bands pass to the outside of the forks at draw. Usually OTF arrangements tend to produce more torque on the wrist because of the necessity of a lower hold on the frame. And the bands will contact the frame tips, producing noise and some band abrasion. However, many folks who are side holders and aimers find they are most accurate with an OTF arrangement.

Each has its benefits and its drawbacks. The thing to do is to experiment to find what is best for you.

Cheers .... Charles


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## treefork

I recommend shooting the Hathcock Sniper TTF. That groove on the side the band lays in forms a *V* and acts as a front sight. Very accurate once you get the feel.Make sure you don't allow the HTS to cant in your hand or your throw your shots low. With TTF the forks need to be wide enough.When shooting OTT a twist and a tweak will enable the ammo to clear the forks.


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## DaveSteve

LVO said:


> Personally I get handslaps on occasion with OTT. I'm more relaxed and therefore more accurate when shooting TTF. No handslaps regardless of how mismatched ammo and my bands are. I like the versatility of that frame!


That's the reason for me too, to prefer TTF.


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## Knotty

Great information. Thanks guys.

I didn't even think to differentiate between TTF and OTF.


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## Arturito

I've shoot both and as regarding accuracy I've didn't find a big difference once you get used ... I've also received some hand slaps with TTF, but I must admit that OTT gives them more frequent, OTT narrower forks also has some advantages pointed by Charles ... the ss don't make the shooter ... only practice and constancy ...


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## kuime

I will stick to TTF. Never tried OTT. I m using a polymer seal sniper BTW. :king:


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## Caribbean_Comanche

kuime said:


> I will stick to TTF. Never tried OTT. I m using a polymer seal sniper BTW. :king:


If you ever get the chance, give OTF a try too. I prefer TTF, but like shooting either way at times. Happy shooting.


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## Rayshot

I shoot TTF with a catty that has a gap of 1 9/16 inches between the forks. I estimate that the pouch is only about a 1/2 inch from my hand as it zips past. I shot with this size catty for the badge comp. There is a pic below that gives a very good idea of what I like to shoot.

I find I am more consistently accurate TTF.


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## Charles

Rayshot said:


> I shoot TTF with a catty that has a gap of 1 9/16 inches between the forks. I estimate that the pouch is only about a 1/2 inch from my hand as it zips past. I shot with this size catty for the badge comp. There is a pic below that gives a very good idea of what I like to shoot.
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> I find I am more consistently accurate TTF.
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Yep ... in that photo, note that your bands at draw pass to the Outside of The Forks, for a classic OTF. Just as you report, many folks report that they are more accurate with that band arrangement.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## Rayshot

Charles said:


> Rayshot said:
> 
> 
> 
> I shoot TTF with a catty that has a gap of 1 9/16 inches between the forks. I estimate that the pouch is only about a 1/2 inch from my hand as it zips past. I shot with this size catty for the badge comp. There is a pic below that gives a very good idea of what I like to shoot.
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> I find I am more consistently accurate TTF.
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> Yep ... in that photo, note that your bands at draw pass to the Outside of The Forks, for a classic OTF. Just as you report, many folks report that they are more accurate with that band arrangement.
> 
> Cheers ..... Charles
Click to expand...

I agree I technically have an OTF (outside the fork) set up but I think many are using the acronym TTF as a set up in general whether attached to the outside or inside, (perhaps other set ups too?). IE, the ammo goes between the forks more than a set up OTT.

Charles I am not trying to wrangle about things. I don't think you are either. Just saying this to be sure. Semantics huh? Blah!


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## Charles

Rayshot said:


> Charles said:
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> Rayshot said:
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> I shoot TTF with a catty that has a gap of 1 9/16 inches between the forks. I estimate that the pouch is only about a 1/2 inch from my hand as it zips past. I shot with this size catty for the badge comp. There is a pic below that gives a very good idea of what I like to shoot.
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> I find I am more consistently accurate TTF.
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> CIMG0539.JPG
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> Yep ... in that photo, note that your bands at draw pass to the Outside of The Forks, for a classic OTF. Just as you report, many folks report that they are more accurate with that band arrangement.
> 
> Cheers ..... Charles
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree I technically have an OTF (outside the fork) set up but I think many are using the acronym TTF as a set up in general whether attached to the outside or inside, (perhaps other set ups too?). IE, the ammo goes between the forks more than a set up OTT.
> 
> Charles I am not trying to wrangle about things. I don't think you are either. Just saying this to be sure. Semantics huh? Blah!
Click to expand...

I agree, Ray. It is just a question of words, and many folks use TTF rather loosely, as you suggest. But it is good to have distinct ways of referring to the various band arrangements, as each has its own peculiarities, problems, and benefits. It is easier to help someone with problems if we have a way of communicating clearly about their band arrangement.

And as I have said before, if you flip strongly or use the speed bump effect, your ammo will fly above the forks, regardless of the band attachment. On the other hand, even with the classic OTT band arrangement, unless your flip or use the speed bump effect, your ammo is going to pass between the fork tips.

If the only reason for calling an arrangement TTF is that the ammo passes through the forks, then that does not distinguish any one band arrangement from any other. Every band arrangement is "through the forks" in that sense.

For just a few examples: We want newbies to understand that during bare back shooting, just because the bands pass over their knuckles at draw (OTT band arrangement), their ammo is going to smack heck out of their hand unless they flip or use the speed bump effect. We want newbies to understand that if their bands pass through the forks (TTF), they better use a wide fork separation or they are going to foul the shot. And we want newbies to understand that for a slingshot set up for it, an OTF arrangement is most accurate for a lot of folks.

No sermon intended here, and no criticism of anyone intended ... Just trying to explain why I think it is important.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## GHT

Charles, i understand what it is to flip, but have not heard of the speed bump effect, can you explain further please, thanks , Tom.


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## Adirondack Kyle

My Bill Hayes hts was banded ttf, and i know that's how he sends them unless you ask for something diff, 
I also know that's how he shoots ,and his aiming method is intended to be shot with the bands being pulled around the outside of the forks, that's what I call ttf, because that's how i learned to first shoot. And from my exp, the bands slap much louder than any other method, its also my most accurate way to shoot. And no band slaps. I was thinking the chrono app would also pick this up better. I never shot with the bands being pulled through the forks but ill take Charles word for it that it's quieter.
i would think that pulling the bands through the inside of the fork, it would make using the Hayes aiming method more difficult,
Because its easier to aim with the top fork line, or you can draw a line on the band where it lines up with the grove as bill suggest.


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## Charles

adarondack kyle said:


> My Bill Hayes hts was banded ttf, and i know that's how he sends them unless you ask for something diff,
> I also know that's how he shoots ,and his aiming method is intended to be shot with the bands being pulled around the outside of the forks, that's what I call ttf, because that's how i learned to first shoot. And from my exp, the bands slap much louder than any other method, its also my most accurate way to shoot. And no band slaps. I was thinking the chrono app would also pick this up better. I never shot with the bands being pulled through the forks but ill take Charles word for it that it's quieter.
> i would think that pulling the bands through the inside of the fork, it would make using the Hayes aiming method more difficult,
> Because its easier to aim with the top fork line, or you can draw a line on the band where it lines up with the grove as bill suggest.


I understand that there is some confusion over the phrases "through the forks" or TTF and "outside the forks" or OTF. I would suggest that being a bit more careful about these terms will aid newbies, and some oldies as well. I will repeat ... unless you are flip shooting or using the speed bump effect, your ammo always passes "through the forks",i.e. between the fork tips, no matter how your bands are arranged. And if you shoot with a strong flip or use the speed bump effect, your ammo will pass over the forks, no matter how your bands are arranged.

As you note, having the bands Outside The Forks at draw is more accurate for many shooters. There is technically no reason why OTF should be more accurate than TTF. You can still use various points on the frame as you "front sight", just as suggested by Bill Hays (and others) ... one particularly useful method is to file a small groove on the outside of the frame at the midpoint of where the bands would stretch with an OTF band arrangement and use that as your "front sight". If you run the bands through the forks, you may notice an elevation difference in your point of impact, or you may not; after all, the midpoint of the pull of the bands is unaffected. If you feel an elevation correction is needed, you can simply adjust the level of your draw hand up or down a bit while keeping your aiming point the same (analogous to adjusting the rear sight on a rifle), or alternatively adjust your aiming point up or down .... just as you would do with a rifle.

Hope this helps. 

Cheers .... Charles


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## Charles

GHT said:


> Charles, i understand what it is to flip, but have not heard of the speed bump effect, can you explain further please, thanks , Tom.


Have a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1rkpuUN1N9o

And at this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=h_IiTZ6d9q4

And here is a written explanation I have given before:

I assume you are shooting with your forks facing up toward the sky. Use your thumb of your pouch hand to clamp the pouch over the second knuckle of your index finger. Twist your pouch hand so the thumb is facing up. Draw back and cock your drawing wrist up about 45 degrees ... angle is not crucial ... just cock it up a bit. To release, lift only your thumb ... keep your index finger steady. The bands will draw your pouch and ammo up and over your index finger. The speed bump of your index finger will pop the pouch and ammo up sufficiently to clear your fork. This is the same thing that happens to your vehicle when you drive over a speed bump in the road ... your vehicle bounces upward.

Cheers .... Charles


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## Adirondack Kyle

Ya. I was just referring to this aiming technique as " Hayes" just for reference, im sure people have been doing it a while, thanks for the breakdown


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## GHT

thanks for the reply Charles, very helpful.


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## slingshotblues

hi guys , got this sweet seal sniper , from bill hays the coolest sling shot ever , shot straight as an arrow first 50 shots , now i keep hitting the lower fork, im very frustrated with the problem , can anyone help me please ive tryed everything , i dont like shooting ott because of hand slap , what am i doing wrong


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## treefork

slingshotblues said:


> hi guys , got this sweet seal sniper , from bill hays the coolest sling shot ever , shot straight as an arrow first 50 shots , now i keep hitting the lower fork, im very frustrated with the problem , can anyone help me please ive tryed everything , i dont like shooting ott because of hand slap , what am i doing wrong


Two things to check. Are you canting the slingshot?f One fork being held closer than the other.Look in the mirror while in full drawThe other is your release and pouch hold. Hold the pouch by the ammo area when drawing back. Check pouch when fully drawn. Is it even? When ever you cause the bands to pull uneven there can be a fork it.


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## slingshotblues

Hi treefork, ive tryed mirrow and everything perfect , then boom i start hitting the bottom fork again , could it be over shooting practice i need help the more i shoot the worse i get , it seems , dog done it i love and dream slingshots i cant believe this is happenin tn to me, thanks for reading my post much appreicated , thanks jeremiah (slingshotblues)


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## Charles

slingshotblues said:


> hi guys , got this sweet seal sniper , from bill hays the coolest sling shot ever , shot straight as an arrow first 50 shots , now i keep hitting the lower fork, im very frustrated with the problem , can anyone help me please ive tryed everything , i dont like shooting ott because of hand slap , what am i doing wrong


It is very difficult to tell what you are doing wrong without actually seeing you shoot. Personally, I believe the vast majority of fork hits are the result of one of two problems. Perhaps one of these is your difficulty.

1) You are twisting the fork at the time of release. This happens very easily with hammer grip or with choker grip, especially when the bands are too strong for you to pull comfortably. Try this little experiment. Take a deck of cards or a small block of wood or your frame in your hand and hold it between your curled index finger and curled thumb, as though your are trying to choke it. Now, try to turn the flat face so that it is parallel to the wall. You will find you have to cant you hand backward at the wrist. Now imagine you are pulling back on bands attached to the object in your hand. As you pull on the bands, you will resist the pull with the hand holding the deck of cards (or the slingshot frame) to keep your wrist from being bent backwards at a painful angle. As you release, the tension in your hand will naturally rotate your wrist forward, twisting the frame so that the gap between the fork tips closes ... and your ammo smacks into a fork since it cannot go between the forks.

2) You are shooting with the speed bump effect, but unaware of it. Here is another little experiment for you to try. Curl your fingers into the palm of your hand, and press the ball of your thumb onto your index finger. Hold your hand so the the top of your thumbnail is toward the ceiling. Pretend you are going to release your pouch and ammo. What you will most likely do is just lift your thumb. If there were a pouch and ammo being held over your index finger by your thumb, as you release, the bands would yank the pouch over your index finger and propel the ammo slightly upward. If you were holding your frame sideways (ganster style, although I dislike that way of phrasing it), the result would be that your ammo would strike the frame of your slingshot. Now, try this one. Extend your middle finger, ring finger, and pink finger out straight, and place your thumb on top of your curled index finger as before. Pretend you are holding your pouch and ammo between your index finger and your thumb. Now when you release, you will find it easy to move your thumb and idex finger away from each other, rather than just moving your thumb. If you move both your thumb and your index finger, you will not get the speed bump effect.

I believe that case number 2 is the reason that many people find they do not get fork hits if they "twist the pouch". What they are doing is arranging their hand so that any speed bump effect is NOT directed toward one of the forks, but rather out of the gap between the forks.

Sooo, what can you do? The first simple thing is to step back a bit on the strength of your bands. That will make it easier for you to keep your frame from twisting as your release. If you are using a choker grip, switch to a finger hook and thumb brace, as that will make a twist much less likely. Watch carefully how you hold your ammo and pouch. Try extending your middle finger, ring finger, and pinky, gripping the pouch just between your thumb and index finger. Concentrate on your release so that you smoothly move your thumb and index finger away from each other, rather than moving just your thumb. Try twisting your pouch so that your thumb nail is pointing toward the gap in the forks, rather than toward one of the forks.

Well, these are a few things you can try. Let us know how it works.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## THWACK!

slingshotblues said:


> hi guys , got this sweet seal sniper , from bill hays the coolest slingshot ever , shot straight as an arrow first 50 shots , now i keep hitting the lower fork, im very frustrated with the problem , can anyone help me please ive tryed everything , i dont like shooting ott because of hand slap , what am i doing wrong


You won't get an OTF hand slap if you flip the forks forward at the time of the shot, and the pouch is twisted 90 degrees, and you tweak the pouch up (while your pouch thumb is parallel to the ground).

But back to your TTF problem:

Why not PM Bill and ask for suggestions - it's part of customer service, is it not?


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## Nicholson

SLINGSHOTBLUES, when I was just starting out I ran into the same problem. what charles and treefork said is true. Try video camera yourself shooting, and you should be able to spot the problem. my problem was solved by what treefork said. I was teaching a person how to shoot a slingshot and they had the #2 problem on charles suggestion. Dont worry, once you figure the problem you can correct it


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## Wingshooter

There are a lot of shooters who have the speed bump problem even after they have shot for a long time. You can tell this by the post's about fork hits. It is perfectly natural to grip something that you want to pull especially if the bands or tubes are on the strong side. Do like Charles says and hold your fist closed and pull your thumb away from your index finger and you will see that they don't separate evenly. Result speed bump and fork hit. Now close your fist again and open your index finger and middle finger you will see they open evenly. Try shooting this way until you get used to the feel of it and you will find it is an excellent way to shoot. No speed bump. (IMHO)


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## THWACK!

kuime said:


> I will stick to TTF. Never tried OTT. I m using a polymer seal sniper BTW. :king:


How do you like that polymer seal sniper?

You may PM me with your response if you wish.

Thanks,

Mike


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## ChuckyVorhees

Caribbean_Comanche said:


> kuime said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will stick to TTF. Never tried OTT. I m using a polymer seal sniper BTW. :king:
> 
> 
> 
> If you ever get the chance, give OTF a try too. I prefer TTF, but like shooting either way at times. Happy shooting.
Click to expand...

I started with ttf, but as I tried ott my acuracy with ttf somehow increased significantly. I stuck with ttf for about 2 years and only experimented this year, starting with the pfs.

Either way, shooting is still a lot of fun.


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## The island boy.

a tip my brother told me that if u r use OTT and u r getting hand slap it’s cuz ur ammo is to light for ur bands if u r shooting marbles or 3/8 steel and 1/2 steel try flatbands cut at A taper of 3/4 to 3/8


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## The island boy.

The island boy. said:


> a tip my brother told me that if u r use OTT and u r getting hand slap it's cuz ur ammo is to light for ur bands if u r shooting marbles or 3/8 steel and 1/2 steel try flatbands cut at A taper of 3/4 to 3/8


 and I forgot to say I kill pigeons with marbles and that taper


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## THWACK!

Knotty said:


> Great information. Thanks guys.
> 
> I didn't even think to differentiate between TTF and OTF.


I shoot OTF while holding the ss sideways (gangsta).

My thumb touches/anchors at my cheek (one of the two on my face - for you wiseguys).

I receive NO handslaps at all - and it doesn't matter which ss I'm using.

However, sometimes I have my left sock on my right foot, which throws off my concentration when I think about it...

THWACK!


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## Brewman

Charles said:


> GHT said:
> 
> 
> 
> Charles, i understand what it is to flip, but have not heard of the speed bump effect, can you explain further please, thanks , Tom.
> 
> 
> 
> Have a look at this video:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1rkpuUN1N9o
> 
> And at this one:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=h_IiTZ6d9q4
> 
> And here is a written explanation I have given before:
> 
> I assume you are shooting with your forks facing up toward the sky. Use your thumb of your pouch hand to clamp the pouch over the second knuckle of your index finger. Twist your pouch hand so the thumb is facing up. Draw back and cock your drawing wrist up about 45 degrees ... angle is not crucial ... just cock it up a bit. To release, lift only your thumb ... keep your index finger steady. The bands will draw your pouch and ammo up and over your index finger. The speed bump of your index finger will pop the pouch and ammo up sufficiently to clear your fork. This is the same thing that happens to your vehicle when you drive over a speed bump in the road ... your vehicle bounces upward.
> 
> Cheers .... Charles
Click to expand...

Sweet!!!


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## hoggy

great info from one and all


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