# Not Looking To Start A War....



## fsa46 (Jul 8, 2012)

....just looking for different opinions.

From many of the posts I've read in the past, it appears that OTT frames are not as ( consistently ) accurate as TTF frames. Are there any or many competitors using the OTT frames at the tournaments and if so how are they doing ?

You SS enthusiasts that use both, please reply.


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## Viper010 (Apr 21, 2012)

For what I've read the Spanish club and tournament scene is one of the largest competition scenes in the world for our sport and over 90% of them use an over the top configuration.

For what little I know, the accuracy potential for ott and ttf are about the same. It's a matter of personal preference and maybe a little of local tradition. 
Just a matter of experimenting and finding out what works for you. To me anyway that's a big part of the fun - trying out the different styles and sometimes being very surprised at the results.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Rayshot (Feb 1, 2010)

Viper states it well.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Don't quote me but I think whatever style you practice most with is going to be the most accurate style for you. It isn't clear (to me, at least) that most of the best shooters are using the TTF method.


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## GrimyReaper (Nov 2, 2014)

fsa46 said:


> You SS enthusiasts that use both, please reply.


I am one of the weirdos that uses both 

I started out on TTF then switched over to OTT, I noticed a spike in accuracy when I did, then I noticed another improvement when I recently tried the FlatCat TTF tubes so I think I'm going to flip back and forth when I want to.

Not all OTT frames work for me and very few TTF frames work for me anymore, my two absolute favourites right now are the SPS for OTT and the FlatCat for TTF, I know that the frame is generally the least important part of the setup but I'm getting my best results with these two which is leading me to think the most important thing for me personally is not OTT vs TTF but tubes vs flats.

I think the configuration of the tubes is important for me, the way I can line the doubled tubes up on these two frames appears to make it easy to aim and hard for me to miss (at my old range and target, I have had to shrink the target and increase the range). Put me on flats and it's very hard for me to hit anything at all.

I think you're going to get a hundred different answers to this question, I improved when I stopped trying to do what everybody else did, wiped the slate clean with no preconceptions about accuracy and practised until a preference developed.

I hasten to add I am not tournament material and am not claiming to be! :lol:


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## Full draw (Dec 22, 2015)

Just about no one would be skilled enough to take advantage of any claimed accuracy of TTF vs OTT, it all comes down to what you prefer and how much you have practiced at it. Just my thoughts


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## oldmiser (Jan 22, 2014)

Try what way will work for you TTF or OTT....the main this is too have fun & practice practice practice...you may want to start out shooting at 15 feet..then

work you way back to 20 feet and so on...The more you practice the better you will become with shooting..use the correct ammo for the band power your using

if you get hand slaps your ammo is to light try the next size up....

As for my self every time ~I make a change for the slingshot...band set or pouch..I start over again at 15 feet..new elastic's & new pouch will shoot different

so you have to relearn again..practice practice practice just my opinion what works for me....Every person has there own style of shooting & what works for them

you just have to find your style....

OM


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## StretchandEat (Nov 11, 2015)

I used to shoot ttf.. after I switched to flatbands it seemed faster for me to reload ott..keep in mind I'm a hunter and sometimes may need a follow up shot.. but that's just my preference.. oh yeah that's using TBG.. someone else recommended me trying latex ttf.. I just haven't yet


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## MakeSlingshots (Jul 16, 2015)

I shot OTT and I just did a change for hitting a coin for 10 meters. It's done it was easy took me like 10 shots to warm up the like a few to do it.

Shotting OTT is a little more straight forward but needs more practice. Picking up a TTF and it's hard at first but it's really easy once you get used to it.

In all it doesn't matter I shot both but mainly OTT, but I try TTF sometimes, but as long as you can shot well then thats what works for you.


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## Phoul Mouth (Jan 6, 2015)

I don't think either OTT or TTF is inherently more accurate than the other. I think it all comes down to what is easiest for the individual. I shoot TTF and I am fairly accurate, but I can't hit the broad side of a barn with OTT. On the other hand my friend shoots OTT as accurately as I shoot TTF and has never even bothered to try TTF.


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## Tentacle Toast (Jan 17, 2013)

....get off my lawn...


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

I currently shoot TTF . I used to shoot OTT . When I seen Bill Hays do crazy stuff with TTF I thought I should change to TTF . Well I became a better shot but I don't think it was due to TTF . Just good old fashion practice and persistence . I cannot say with absolute certainty and evidence one is better than the other .There are advantages and disadvantages of both attachments . I like both depending on the frame . I'm even thinking of going OTT exclusively again and see what happens . Then I may have more definitive evidence . Until then it seems like a personal preference thing .


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## CornDawg (Sep 27, 2015)

I am a through the forker. I harbor no prejudice against over the toppers, and I have never bought into the stigma attached to them. I've heard the rumors of course, about how they drive on under inflated tires, put ketchup on hot dogs, urinate while swimming, and tease puppies. I don't believe any of it. They are Brothers of the Sling, and entitled to the same respect as any noble through the forker.


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## kpla51 (Oct 19, 2014)

so has anyone tried a vice/ release rig to take out human error? Kind of like putting a riffle in a gun vice and shooting it to see how accurate it is, that would probably end the whole debate.


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## honorary pie (Feb 12, 2015)

^^^^ most is true. We also throw trash at TTFers from the overpass...... we're just generally more badass that way. If our slingshot doesn't agree, not only will it slap your hand like sh it, it might just huck that rock straight back at ya .

Wait- whose side are you on anyway?


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## Can-Opener (May 11, 2013)

Streaching it both ways  That is the long and short of it


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## StretchandEat (Nov 11, 2015)

CornDawg said:


> I am a through the forker. I harbor no prejudice against over the toppers, and I have never bought into the stigma attached to them. I've heard the rumors of course, about how they drive on under inflated tires, put ketchup on hot dogs, urinate while swimming, and tease puppies. I don't believe any of it. They are Brothers of the Sling, and entitled to the same respect as any noble through the forker.


I've dove on under inflated tires.. eaten ketchup on hotdogs.. and teased puppies.. to be honest.. you get enough beer in me and I'll probably still piss in the pool


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## Wingshooter (Dec 24, 2009)

If you tied the left fork TTF and the right fork OTT would you then have the best of both worlds?


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## honorary pie (Feb 12, 2015)

Dont even get me started on the 'ole ttatf! Sheesh, those guys!


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## StretchandEat (Nov 11, 2015)

Ttatf?


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## honorary pie (Feb 12, 2015)

Tubes Tangled Allover The Fork?


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## ImEggscellent85 (Mar 3, 2015)

I never get tangled tubes and use them almost exclusively only up to 2040 I use 1/4 steel to 5/16 in singles for more power I loop them or double loop them with bigger ammo. I shoot OTT I've tried TTF and wasn't a big fan felt strange. But I usually shoot tubes on slings with a small fork gap 1" to barehanded. I've tried many different slings like stated its personal preference. It took me a year to find what works for me now I am loving PFShooters and having a OPFS made.

You won't know unless you try, and try making a slingshot from a natural that's how I started. Word of caution be prepared for a fun addiction.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## calinb (Apr 4, 2015)

GrimyReaper said:


> I am one of the weirdos that uses both
> 
> I started out on TTF then switched over to OTT, I noticed a spike in accuracy when I did, then I noticed another improvement when I recently tried the FlatCat TTF tubes so I think I'm going to flip back and forth when I want to.


This reminds me of the days of the 55 mph national speed limit in the U.S.. Our fed.gov rulers and masters touted the resulting reduction in vehicular accidents as a justification of the more restrictive national law. Then someone did a study and discovered that the reduction in accidents wasn't caused by the lower speeds. Rather, it was caused merely by instituting a change; it could be a change in either direction. A change to increase speed limits results in safer driving too!

Even though we tend to think that always shooting the same SS, configuration, and ammo results in achieving our optimum performance, sometimes a change can stimulate higher levels of concentration.


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## calinb (Apr 4, 2015)

kpla51 said:


> so has anyone tried a vice/ release rig to take out human error? Kind of like putting a riffle in a gun vice and shooting it to see how accurate it is, that would probably end the whole debate.


Chuck Saunders of Saunders archery told me they have a shooting machine for SSs to take the human element out of the shot during testing and experimentation. I would not be surprised if they have one for archery too.

On the other hand, fix a springer air rifle to a massive rest and fire it remotely and it will typically shoot less accurately than it shoots when fired by a air gunner who has mastered the "artillery hold." This is due to the double recoil of a springer. When the rifle is allowed to move how it "wants to move" (like an artillery piece), it usually yields its best accuracy. To a lesser degree, I've experienced the same phenomenon with very accurate rimfire rifles. A SS is not a springer air or rimfire, rifle but the lesson reminds us that the human holding the weapon is part of the system too!


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## Piney Creek (Jun 18, 2015)

I have only been shooting since August '15. Started out OTT hit a plateau and changed to TTF and improved. I realy think that it was just a natural rise in the learning curve. I began to pay attention to band length, width, size of ammo, release and form that probably has contributed more to my gaining accuracy.

I can now shred cans consistantly, and hope to try for my 10 meter badge this summer.

I think this lines up with what others have shared FWIW. Regards, Piney Creek


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## calinb (Apr 4, 2015)

Piney Creek said:


> I have only been shooting since August '15. Started out OTT hit a plateau and changed to TTF and improved. I realy think that it was just a natural rise in the learning curve. I began to pay attention to band length, width, size of ammo, release and form that probably has contributed more to my gaining accuracy.
> 
> I can now shred cans consistantly, and hope to try for my 10 meter badge this summer.
> 
> I think this lines up with what others have shared FWIW. Regards, Piney Creek


I practiced very diligently for my 10 m badge with my Pocket Predator TTF flatbanded Side Shooters and HTS small. Even before I completed the 10 m "program," I tried shooting my Torque with OTT tubes. It didn't matter; I shot The Torque just as well after a short adjustment period.

But that's just me. I know people have preferences that are based on their own performance and very real. I also know that I can't achieve my very best accuracy with my Rambone no matter what, but if I shoot some arrows (VERY heavy ammo up to 655 gr.) from my Rambone using 32 to 50 lbs bands, it works very well for me. I can't shoot very long like that but it works well as long as I can last!


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## GrimyReaper (Nov 2, 2014)

I'm terrible with flats even though I like the way they feel, the only frame I own that has flats on it is used solely for flinging ammo at stuff without actively trying to aim. I concentrate only on the target and try to ignore the frame and bands it's great fun and something I do quite often as it's a style of shooting I enjoy and want to get better at but I wouldn't try it (yet) on a shot that actually mattered to me. I shoot an original Milbro with tubes this way too, like a PFS (PFS is a frame I can't shoot, me with a PFS is a disaster waiting to happen  ).

If I'm working on my accuracy I always go for the SPS or FlatCat and I'm roughly equal with both, which one I go for largely depends on my mood and both frames are pretty new to me but already they are definite favourites, aiming them is remarkably similar, the FlatCat's attachment method produces a sight picture virtually identical to the SPS with looped tubes, maybe this is why I get on so well with them both?

You are probably right about the change producing a spike in concentration as I find switching between aiming and instinctive shooting sharpens me up, if I'm having an off day aiming I'll usually just switch to 'instinctive' for fun and it's like a breath of fresh air. For me it produces and attitude change as even though it's a direction I do focus on as I really want to get better at it, at the moment it's something I do purely OTT and for fun. Hitting things this way always lifts my mood, I usually find after a while of doing this when I switch back to consciously aiming my 'off day' has dramatically improved..

Horses for courses


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## Ms.Reed (Feb 16, 2015)

When I'm shooting flats: TTF, when I'm shooting tubes: OTT. Don't know why or care to...it just works for me. Different strokes for different folks and all that


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## fsa46 (Jul 8, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies guy & gals. Yup, the only to know if I'm going to like it is to set one up and give it a try and that's what I intend to do. Nothing wrong with shooting both and I always like the challenge of trying something new.


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## jazz (May 15, 2012)

I have noticed that wether I shoot OTT or TTF does not bring much difference in my accuracy, except, probably the fact that I shoot almost exclusively OTT so that I might be more familiar with that one.

For me, more difference makes flip or no flip: I get better results when I do not flip, but, then, I always flip, or to put it this way: I almost can not not to flip so that I trade off accuracy for my preffered style.

cheers,

jazz


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## Hubb1018 (Dec 20, 2015)

I'm new to this forum. I'm not sure if the standard tube type from Marksman and Daisy etc. is TTF or not but that's all I've ever shot until a few weeks ago when I made found out about this awesome site and made a couple flat bands. I can shoot as well with either but I'm not that great of a shooter so my opinion probably doesn't hold a lot of weight so... It's fun either way for me


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## Chuck Daehler (Mar 17, 2015)

I think OTT and TTF are strictly personal preference but I caution an easy answer here.

Many of us know from lots of experience of band/pouch/ammo/draw length combinations, that somewhere in there is a "sweet spot" combination. You can use X band set with Y ammo and get crap results but change the ammo weight and all of a sudden it's spot on. All these variables affect accuracy. Add your shooting style and stance itself, release, holding steady throughout the shot, the same draw length and time of draw to release (rubber loses some elasticity if held in draw overly long).

The frame, given it's wide and deep enough to permit non congested band follow through is somewhat important as well. The ball is actually released from the pouch a few inches before it gets to the fork, as the rubber's energy delivery stops entirely there...or a bit before. So whatever happened before that point will determine the ball's trajectory both vertical and horizontal paths.


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## honorary pie (Feb 12, 2015)

Chuck Daehler said:


> The frame, given it's wide and deep enough to permit non congested band follow through is somewhat important as well. The ball is actually released from the pouch a few inches before it gets to the fork, as the rubber's energy delivery stops entirely there...or a bit before. So whatever happened before that point will determine the ball's trajectory both vertical and horizontal paths.







I dont think so. A ball leaving sooner than your slingshot would be difficult to shoot i think..


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## Tremoside (Jul 17, 2013)

I'm using both but prefer OTT. It leaves more flexibility to play with aiming, distances, switch to tubes, adding or removing protectors, gypsy tabs etc. Also fits with my anatomy. TTF with a well adjusted bandset can be accurate and awesome, but it's not as relaxing to me to shoot.

It's mostly the feel and the aiming sight/vision you prefer. It's just picking the tool that fits.


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## Chuck Daehler (Mar 17, 2015)

Honorary pie, thank you for responding, but pleas check this slow motion vid where in fact I got the information that the ball leaves the pouch just a couple inches shy of the forks. It has to...it's got less air resistance and more density than the pouch or bands...as the bands expend their potential energy they are subject to air resistance, slowing the pouch and bands down while the ball, with greater momentum and less air resistance keeps going. I didn't know this either until I saw the video. Live and learn, right? On some of the shots on the video the ball releases right at the fork or just a few mm before it as well.





1:07 on the video clearly shows that but it's shown several times on the video. You have to be quick and stop the video just at the right spot to see it but in fact the ball usually leaves the pouch just before it gets to the forks. Also note the crumpled contraction of the bands, they don't contract smoothly during the last half of the contraction. I've posted this video a couple times and it's pretty useful to see exactly what happens. I've taken a screen shot of that and posted it here. I don't post something unless I know it is correct.

Also note the twist that some put on the pouch, rectifies and straightens up as if it never happened, only a couple inches from the release hand. So it appears that twisting actually has no effect on the behavior of the pouch, bands and ammo by the time it gets to the fork.

Watch carefully at about 0:52 to see a pouch twist of 90 degrees undo itself, rectify and fly straight very quickly only a few inches from release as if it never was twisted.

I love this educational video for it straightens out some myths.


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## Chuck Daehler (Mar 17, 2015)

Something strange happened above and my screen shot posted three times. I tried to edit this glitch and could not. Here is another screen shot, well, the same one but with a diagram that points out the fact the ball leaves the pouch before it gets to the forks.

I think it's plain to see from the varied replies to this thread that basically you just have to try a lot of combinations to get what's right for you. You won't see the exact same setup of any contestant in a shooting contest/tournament, that in itself states the fact that many things work just fine, it's whatever that particular shooter finds that works for that particular shooter.


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## StretchandEat (Nov 11, 2015)

Chuck.. your always posting helpful information (not that when the ball leaves the pouch is going to change how I shoot and when I miss) but always interesting.. it'd be cool to hang out and talk to you though I think I would have to download a dictionary and thesaurus app first... and I guess I'd have to have a passport and plane ticket also


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## calinb (Apr 4, 2015)

Chuck Daehler said:


> ...as the bands expend their potential energy they are subject to air resistance, slowing the pouch and bands down while the ball, with greater momentum and less air resistance keeps going.


I want a high speed camera!

Yup...and also think about how the pouch/bands stop providing a motive force to the ammo even before you notice the ammo separating from the pouch. (The pouch and ammo are already both slowing down but, as you said Chuck, the pouch slows down faster!) The bands can't push the ammo after they've contracted to their static length and have "dumped" all their stored energy. Actually, the "push" on the ammo happens even slightly before the bands reach their static length, because the last of the energy is used to reduce the slowdown of the pouch / bands so the pouch initially stays close to the ammo. When the bands reach their static length, all the stored band energy is depleted and the pouch to ammo gap widens quickly.


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## jazz (May 15, 2012)

In his paper: "Power: a small theoretical approach to understanding and improving slingshot power" (which you can dowload from the Internet) Melchior Menzel writes in one place: "In average, half of the pull accelerates the projectile".

I tend to trust him, looking at all the research work he has done on slingshots.

I also think that it is him who runs this site: http://slingshots.myfreeforum.org/index.php, so check it out.

cheers,

jazz


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## Wingshooter (Dec 24, 2009)

I think it is plain in this shot from the same video that the pouch is no longer pushing on the ball. I think Mel is right. Half of your draw length is the power stroke. That explains why slightly longer bands pulled to extreme lengths give so much more speed. They have a longer power stroke.


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## calinb (Apr 4, 2015)

jazz said:


> In his paper: "Power: a small theoretical approach to understanding and improving slingshot power" (which you can dowload from the Internet) Melchior Menzel writes in one place: "In average, half of the pull accelerates the projectile".
> 
> I tend to trust him, looking at all the research work he has done on slingshots.
> 
> ...


I've spent a bit of time on his site and he's written some good stuff. Acceleration for half of the active length sounds about right to me (just my gut feeling based on the known "boundary" conditions, as we call them in physics and engineering). The bottom line is the last part of the contraction isn't doing much (or nothing) to accelerate the projectile, even before you see the projectile separate from the pouch in the high speed video.


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## Chuck Daehler (Mar 17, 2015)

Thanks stretchandeat. I'll try to use less $5 words too...thanks for the implied suggestion. Old phardts accumulate a lot of words in a lifetime, LOL!

Yes, about half the contraction of the band is responsible for almost all the velocity. That is why longer pulls such as half or full butterfly result in such high velocity with not that much pull. The longer (length) the ball stays in the pouch's first half contraction, the faster it goes given all other factors are the same.

A slingshot is sort of like a long bow in that respect...whereas a compound provides umph (a technical word) practically through out all the time the arrow is nocked in the string...hence the higher velocity.

I learned a lot from this video, I've seen it online for some time now. Did Joerg do this one? Someone with a fine slo mo cam sure did a decent job.

What do you guys think of the twist 90deg rectifying itself in just a few inches as if it never was twisted? Yet many swear by the twist method especially using pickle forks and stick shots.

Nice link to an alternate forum Cal. I've seen this one some time ago...good forum...a pretty simple layout. I'm stuck on SSF however, I don't want to spread myself too thin time wise with multiple forums although many are members of at least three.


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## calinb (Apr 4, 2015)

Chuck Daehler said:


> Nice link to an alternate forum Cal. I've seen this one some time ago...good forum...a pretty simple layout. I'm stuck on SSF however, I don't want to spread myself too thin time wise with multiple forums although many are members of at least three.


I think Jazz was the one here in this thread who originally mentioned it; I've just spent some time there going over all the technical stuff. It's the best site I've found for tech notes and pubs, because tech and history seems to be what the site owner is into. Good stuff, but more as a library of information (including that SS history stuff) than here at SS Forum. SS Forum obviously serves that purpose as well but, for me, the SS Forum is the place for great artistry and comrade too. Like you, I see no reason to spread myself too thin. SS Forum is my SS home, and I support it!


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## jazz (May 15, 2012)

Hi guys,

I only mentioned an interesting paper and a link to the writer's site since they in technical sense are related, and both being related to the thread we are in just now..

It might be that I did not understand the responses to my comment well, but I did not ask anyone to go visiting other forums, becoming their members, spreading themselves thin etc. although it is not forbiden, right?

By the way, this is the only forum I am a member of and it is going to stay that way.

cheers,

jazz


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## calinb (Apr 4, 2015)

jazz said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I only mentioned an interesting paper and a link to the writer's site since they in technical sense are related, and both being related to the thread we are in just now..
> 
> ...


Oops--I think Chuck and I sent the wrong signals to you with our mention of our own personal preferences to mostly participate in this forum (SSforum). There's no problem with mentioning a resource as you did--at least not that I'm aware-of. It was a good mention for technical content, as you said, and I was just seconding your motion!


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