# Pouch parallel with forks at full draw ?



## styks (Nov 28, 2010)

Not sure if this question would be better asked in shooting tips, mods please move if so.

I have a fused left wrist and some hand damage. I can't really hold a slingshot very well in my left
because of this so I must hold with my right hand. No problem there then but I also have limited supination on left forearm
and can't turn the pouch to be parallel with the forks if I hold the cat horizontal ie bands one above the other in chinese style.
I can get to 40-45deg.

My question is, does this matter? ....... I could of course shoot vertical or at 45deg but I do like the idea of shooting chinese style
with the anchor at the corner of my mouth under my left eye, as Smitty shoots, it makes sense to me.

Your advise would be appreciated, I want to start off right.


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## NaturalFork (Jan 21, 2010)

I have actually done some tests on this. My accuracy does not seem to be affected by this.


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## Brooklyn00003 (Feb 28, 2010)

When I started shooting "gangsta" style I didn't notice that aLot of times I did not hold the pouch the right way . No accidents happened to me . I can't tell you if there is any different in shooting accuracy as back then could not hit anything anyway 45 deg is ok I say but nothing more .I will try it maybe tomorrow and tell you what I experianced in accuracy .Also I suggest to use wide forks 4.5 cm min.
Just stay tuned if you are not sure dont shoot it.

Other thing you can hold the catapult in around 30 deg then the catapult and the pouch line up almost


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## styks (Nov 28, 2010)

Ok that's encouraging both, I'll await your tests also Brooklyn 00003.
I'm not worried about anything safety wise, my concern was accuracy.
I've been shooting "gangsta style" , thanks did not know what to call it, and not had any fork strikes or major 
wayward shots. I'm just not accurate enough to know if holding gangsta 90 deg from horizontal and the pouch around 45deg 
will detract from potential accuracy.
I'm going to be using flat bands mainly, I think. 
I'm guessing that if I was using doube tubes with four pouch tying points and/or four fork attach points
it may be more critical?

edit : From what I've been reading a member called Danny might be one to ask, I think he's somewhat of an expert using this technique?


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## haertig (Jul 30, 2010)

I always thought it was very important to hold the pouch parallel to the forks. I can't tell you why I think this, I just do. Probably my engineering mind telling me everything should be square and parallel or at right angles (I think non-engineers refer to our kind of thinking as "anally retentive"). When shooting I strive for this parallel-ness,and tend to use the non-parallel excuse as a reason to explain my wayward shots. But does it really matter? I haven't done any accuracy tests myself. I just assume it matters - it certainly couldn't hurt to keep things parallel.

I would be interested to read about others tests/experiences with accuracy with a non-parallel pouch. If it doesn't matter, that's one less detail I need to concentrate on while shooting.


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## styks (Nov 28, 2010)

haertig said:


> I always thought it was very important to hold the pouch parallel to the forks. I can't tell you why I think this, I just do. Probably my engineering mind telling me everything should be square and parallel or at right angles (I think non-engineers refer to our kind of thinking "anally retentive"). When shooting I strive for this parallel-ness,and tend to use the non-parallel excuse as a reason to explain my wayward shots. But does it really matter? I haven't done any accuracy tests myself. I just assume it matters - it certainly couldn't hurt to keep things parallel.
> 
> I would be interested to read about others tests/experiences with accuracy with a non-parallel pouch. If it doesn't matter, that's one less detail I need to concentrate on while shooting.










I've been called that many times as I guess most engineers have. I instinctively, as you, would love everything neat and tidy but it cannot be I'm afraid.
To be honest knowing that things arn't right may be enough to put me off persuing it. 
I'll wait for test results and the more experienced before I decide which style to go with.


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## haertig (Jul 30, 2010)

styks said:


> To be honest knowing that things arn't right may be enough to put me off persuing it.


A truely anally retentive engineer would not give it up. They'd design a mechanical release device with variable angle. Bonus points if you design one that auto-senses and auto-rotates to the correct angle, uses less than 1 kilowatt of power, and weighs less than 20 lbs.


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## dragonmaster (Dec 24, 2009)

I hold my frame bout 45Deg and started holding the pouch bout 45Deg to the forks I started this when another member brought it up and it seemed to help me but Ive always been a little bass ackwards


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## ZDP-189 (Mar 14, 2010)

styks said:


> From what I've been reading a member called Danny might be one to ask, I think he's somewhat of an expert using this technique?


Danny is an expert; he shoots at a target the size of a quarter at 10 metres. I can imagine what he'd say, though: Keep it straight if at all possible.

If you have wrist and hand problems, can you use a wrist-brace?


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## styks (Nov 28, 2010)

haertig said:


> To be honest knowing that things arn't right may be enough to put me off persuing it.


A truely anally retentive engineer would not give it up. They'd design a mechanical release device with variable angle. Bonus points if you design one that auto-senses and auto-rotates to the correct angle, uses less than 1 kilowatt of power, and weighs less than 20 lbs.
[/quote]








I may just do that!


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## ZDP-189 (Mar 14, 2010)

This chap is shooting twisted:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/071127/pb_071127_slingshot_jb.photoblog900.jpg


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## styks (Nov 28, 2010)

ZDP-189 said:


> From what I've been reading a member called Danny might be one to ask, I think he's somewhat of an expert using this technique?


Danny is an expert; he shoots at a target the size of a quarter at 10 metres. I can imagine what he'd say, though: Keep it straight if at all possible.

If you have wrist and hand problems, can you use a wrist-brace?
[/quote]

I suspect he would say that, it seems the right way. A quarter is around 24mm dia from google. If I reach that sort of accuracy 
I'd be very happy!

Wrist brace, it's not the strength thats the problem my wrist is fixed solid with a 4 hole stainless flat bar + bone/callus formation and is very strong.
I have nerve / tendon damage and muscle loss which prevents me gripping the cat. I can hold it in hammer grip but it tends to rotate + it pulls against my thumb joint
as I have no palm shelf.
I have ordered one of Jack Koehlers' King Cats which I think I could use on the left. I would certainly prefer to hold the cat in my left as my pinch strength between left thumb and forefinger 
is not great. I can just about hold and pull 20mm double flat bands but my pinch grip tires quite quickly, double 15mm bands I could cope with ok I feel.

I would like to be able to use a small cat so I can pop it in my back pack to go camping. So I guess for target I would shoot left handed with the King Cat and hunt right handed.

I'm begining to think I will just have to hold the cat either vertical of canted to 40-45deg. I was hitting a can at 20y holding like that after several shots to get my aim and muscle memory but I thought sighting would be easier / more consistant shooting one band above the other as Smitty or Danny.


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## lobodog2 (Nov 10, 2010)

This is a good question, I find it difficult to go full "Gangsta" style, because of how I anchor at the jawline. To keep everything all lined up, I hold the frame at a 45 degree angle. I often wonder if "Pouch Twist" no matter how minute, would effect accuracy. I can't see how it wouldn't, even if it's to the smallest degree. I hope it doesn't, because I like having the top fork there to use as an aiming device when going "Gangsta".


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## styks (Nov 28, 2010)

ZDP-189 said:


> This chap is shooting twisted:
> 
> http://msnbcmedia.ms...hotoblog900.jpg


He certainly is, be nice to know if he hits what he's aiming at!


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## styks (Nov 28, 2010)

lobodog2 said:


> This is a good question, I find it difficult to go full "Gangsta" style, because of how I anchor at the jawline. To keep everything all lined up, I hold the frame at a 45 degree angle. I often wonder if "Pouch Twist" no matter how minute, would effect accuracy. I can't see how it wouldn't, even if it's to the smallest degree. I hope it doesn't, because I like having the top fork there to use as an aiming device when going "Gangsta".


I'm thinking it may be more important with looped tubes especially if they are connected two either side of the pouch and one above the other on the forks.
I feel that setup may need to be shot all lined up, the pouch would imeadiately try to come true on release, I think? ....... Be nice to see some slow mo test vids, anyone got high speed gear and feel like proving it one way or tother?


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

For me I cannot hit anything unless I give the band or the pouch a quarter turn. I say pouch or band because I have some shooters that are pouchless. Also since there is a funtional problem with your wrist you can attach a set of bands to a glove. I have such a shooter I call it Glove Shooter. I think there is still a picture of it in the Gallery. I have made a change with it since. Have been wanting to post video of this Glove Shooter and it is accurate to the degree of ones on ability. Technique is everything.


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## Brooklyn00003 (Feb 28, 2010)

I did not find any different in accuracy if I hold the pouch 45deg .


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## Tex-Shooter (Dec 17, 2009)

I made this style to keep the twist out of the bands and pouch. But I could not shoot it as well as one with the 1/4 twist. It seemed like it was more critical release. -- Tex-Shooter


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## styks (Nov 28, 2010)

dgui said:


> For me I cannot hit anything unless I give the band or the pouch a quarter turn. I say pouch or band because I have some shooters that are pouchless. Also since there is a funtional problem with your wrist you can attach a set of bands to a glove. I have such a shooter I call it Glove Shooter. I think there is still a picture of it in the Gallery. I have made a change with it since. Have been wanting to post video of this Glove Shooter and it is accurate to the degree of ones on ability. Technique is everything.


Thats interesting, I wonder why that is, is it possible the way you hold the cat the bands stretch differently either side and the quarter turn evens it up? Just a thought.
I don't think thr glove would work for me. I have two fingers attached to one tendon, they only moved a little independantly of each other. Plus I have no thumb opposition, might be worth a look though if you could post a pic, thank you. Yes I'm learning, my technique is developing slowly, not very consistant yet though. Sometimes I hit easily for a run then I miss for a run, it's a little infuriating!








I remember the same when I started in Trad Archery. I'll get there!


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## styks (Nov 28, 2010)

Tex-Shooter said:


> I made this style to keep the twist out of the bands and pouch. But I could not shoot it as well as one with the 1/4 twist. It seemed like it was more critical release. -- Tex-Shooter


Unless I'm missing something I can't quite see how that works, if you hold the fork horizontal, gangsta style, do you not have to hold the pouch horizontal also to keep in line?
If so I'd have to rotate even more than I can.


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## styks (Nov 28, 2010)

Brooklyn00003 said:


> I did not find any different in accuracy if I hold the pouch 45deg .


Thank you for doing that test for me, I'll see if I can get some accuracy.


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## Brooklyn00003 (Feb 28, 2010)

styks said:


> I did not find any different in accuracy if I hold the pouch 45deg .


Thank you for doing that test for me, I'll see if I can get some accuracy.
[/quote]

Welcome mate !


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## Tex-Shooter (Dec 17, 2009)

I don't have any trouble keeping everyrhing in line, but it just don't shoot as good for me! It is like the shot drops more on the way to the fork. Tex-Shooter


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## smitty (Dec 17, 2009)

I had my left hand and wrist crushed down to 3/16" thick by a printing press when I was 20 years old, now I am 53 and still am healing from the injury. It pulverized my thumb ball and socket joint which doesn't exist anymore and my large knuckles were badly damaged as well. Nerve damage limits certain areas of strength. My wrist doesn't move very well, but I can bend it in line.
OK, that said I want to encourage you to experiment as much as possible to find your own way. It doesn't matter what form your slingshot has to take for you to be able to shoot the way you want to. I think the most important thing is eye dominance to dictate how you shoot. If you would really like to hold the slingshot in your hurt hand then try to design around the weakness to allow your strong hand to be able to hold and release the pouch with precision. Pouch release is the single most important factor to accuracy once the basic mechanics of shooting are learned. The pouch should be on the dominate eye side, if at all possible so both eyes can be kept open to shoot.
I shoot with one fork on top of the other so the bands or tubes look like one line as I line up with the target and based upon how far I am from the target I use any point of reference on the fork to zero in on the proper elevation. The first shot is an educated guess and based upon where the shot goes I correct by using another part of the fork to aim with.
Joerg sent me a glove-shot he designed and built to help with this problem and it allowed me to shoot for the first time without pain, but I couldn't be consistent with it because I couldn't shoot it with one fork on top of the other because I couldn't turn my wrist enough to get it right. It did show me what I needed to do to find my own way however.
Here are some pictures that might help you get a start finding what will help you: Joergs' is the metal one with the leather strap across the back of my hand. The others are form fitted to my style by me, one experiment at a time.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

styks said:


> For me I cannot hit anything unless I give the band or the pouch a quarter turn. I say pouch or band because I have some shooters that are pouchless. Also since there is a funtional problem with your wrist you can attach a set of bands to a glove. I have such a shooter I call it Glove Shooter. I think there is still a picture of it in the Gallery. I have made a change with it since. Have been wanting to post video of this Glove Shooter and it is accurate to the degree of ones on ability. Technique is everything.


Thats interesting, I wonder why that is, is it possible the way you hold the cat the bands stretch differently either side and the quarter turn evens it up? Just a thought.
I don't think thr glove would work for me. I have two fingers attached to one tendon, they only moved a little independantly of each other. Plus I have no thumb opposition, might be worth a look though if you could post a pic, thank you. Yes I'm learning, my technique is developing slowly, not very consistant yet though. Sometimes I hit easily for a run then I miss for a run, it's a little infuriating!








I remember the same when I started in Trad Archery. I'll get there!
[/quote]

If you go to Gallery and key in Glove Slingshot Shooter you will see the glove shooter I made which it s very simple and very effective method of shooting I have since yet made it a bit more simple but with this view you may very well be able to come up with yet a better designe. I will soon do a video on The Glove Shooter and post it.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Slingshot shooting in the way we do it is very individualized and so goes what works for the individual by style. I find that it is better not to have a ridgid same way shooting style for the simple reason of we are not machines that lock into the exact same duplicating response. If you are off by a 12th of an inch up or down or left or right it will multiply by the distance traveled. I have no proof but I believe 1/4 turn on the pouch causes a positive spin on the shot and this spin produces more control just like rifling in a gun barrel. So it is not one single thing that produces positive results but the whole package working together.


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