# Any illegal ammo?



## ZDP-189 (Mar 14, 2010)

Does anyone know if any particular kind of slingshot ammo is illegal in any particular jurisdiction?

Not crazy stuff like exploding ammo or depleted uranium, but conventional ammunition.

The reason I ask is, I can give slingshot ammo interesting flight characteristics.

If I can consistently determine which part of the ammo hits first, it wouldn't be hard to make expanders or tumblers.










Fin-stabilised 20gr sinker at 5' with theraband silver.

I won't pretend it's more accurate, but maybe I can advance the German sport of backyard Pudding Plinking.














I bet an expander would stop in a tub of jelly.

At the very least it would give Joerg a couple of minutes of fun.


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## shot in the foot (Jan 3, 2010)

The lead weight would go better without the dart flite in it, that would slow it down, jeff


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## ZDP-189 (Mar 14, 2010)

It's not about the speed, but getting the tip to impact consistently. It'd be hard to make expanding ammo if it could impact at any angle. Shot bags and balls of shot mixed in substrates like wax are exceptions, but they have their own issues.

I have to borrow the chrono again, but the dart-balls I made tonight seem to fly as fast and without hinderance. The flights are aerodynamically efficient once straight and level, offering little drag compared to the sinker. The only purpose is to make it travel with the tip forward.

I made better versions years ago when I was experimenting with spinning shot, but this served for a demo of the concept that I can make odd shapes hit end-on. Smaller flights are better. As are small flights on shafts (thought you have to glue the flights on). I just couldn't be bothered to make them myself to demonstrate the concept and the idea for hollowpoints hit me when I was in a sporting store by the dart section.

I don't want to actually _make_ expanding ammunition unless I am fairly sure I'd not be breaking the law by doing so.


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## Sarge (Dec 18, 2009)

Interesting concept. They wouldn't be illegal here, but would you get enough velocity to cause expansion? I know with sub sonic hollow point .22 ammo, the hollow point cavity has to be quite big to get any expansion at sub sonic velocities.


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## ZDP-189 (Mar 14, 2010)

Yes, there would be a critical velocity. Joerg was having trouble getting rounds to stop in his gel block. Expansion or tumbling are ways to preserve most of the ballistic efficiency in flight but deliver it on impact. The idea is find a way to make it efficient in the air but inefficient in the medium. Bullets are a bit different to catapult shot. The advantage is bullets fly straight from a rifled barrel. OTOH, you can be more creative in the design of catapult ammo. I have shot odd shapes like screws and lead figurines, which would never work in a rifled barrel. A catapult expanding round could be made with a flared head and a weak base. As long as it is stable in the air and not too inaccurate, it would do the job at short ranges. The art is in optimising all these criteria.


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## ARB (Dec 31, 2009)

Would a hollow lead ball expand? Jeff Tanner in the UK makes hollow ball moulds - however it may be the case that they are only available in large sizes.


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## fish (Dec 24, 2009)

in all honesty a solid .44 lead shot will kill all small game outright if using a suitably powerfull set of bands. i and a number of my customers have had shots penetrate rabbits and fowl.


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

For hunting, I concur with Fish. a .44 or .45 lead ball is perfect. Good energy and penetration.

For self defense, use a bigger lead ball, like my preferred .75" (19mm). It simply delivers more energy, even though penetration won't be as good as using .44 lead. But the pain the .75" lead ball inflicts is just massive, will instantly stop an aggressor.

Jörg


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

JoergS said:


> For hunting, I concur with Fish. a .44 or .45 lead ball is perfect. Good energy and penetration.
> 
> For self defense, use a bigger lead ball, like my preferred .75" (19mm). It simply delivers more energy, even though penetration won't be as good as using .44 lead. But the pain the .75" lead ball inflicts is just massive, will instantly stop an aggressor.
> 
> Jörg


Yes exactly. The same reason (stopping power) not penetration is why the us army retired the .30 cal. piston and took up the .45 cal. Girth and weight equals massive impact. Like the difference between Jorge (a massive force) and all other regular sized men possessing ordinary like strength, (no match).


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

ZDP-189 said:


> Does anyone know if any particular kind of slingshot ammo is illegal in any particular jurisdiction?
> 
> Not crazy stuff like exploding ammo or depleted uranium, but conventional ammunition.
> 
> ...


Most impressed by Saunders Bands performance with plenty of energy force to get through the gelatin plus a little left over.


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## fish (Dec 24, 2009)

JoergS said:


> For hunting, I concur with Fish. a .44 or .45 lead ball is perfect. Good energy and penetration.
> 
> For self defense, use a bigger lead ball, like my preferred .75" (19mm). It simply delivers more energy, even though penetration won't be as good as using .44 lead. But the pain the .75" lead ball inflicts is just massive, will instantly stop an aggressor.
> 
> Jörg


jeez becarefull jorg youll kill some bugger? has anyone used a slingshot legally for self defence?


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## stelug (Feb 6, 2010)

I couldnt follow well the wole thread but about the impact point I can tell You that if You visit any ancient museum here in Europe You will find out that ancient roman slingshot bulletts (I intend the slingshot made by two string and a pouch, the one David used against Goliath) where never round. The shape was at losange (trapezium) because the stabilizing effect after few meters flyng. The air pression on the belly (fat) center part will make one point flayng straight forward and the other pointing back. The same concept applied to catapults darts wich, unlike the bow's darts, did not had any kind of feathers because to flight straight thei only relay on the fused shape.

Hope was enaught clear


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## Bugar (Dec 24, 2009)

OK- about ammo doing the job on a agressor, What i carry when I am in a ROUGH area- muggers- toughnecks- the whole mess of badasses, I do metal detecting at these parks, have been approached a few times, and they backed off when the saw my HUGE dagger I use for digging.
ALSO, I have and have never had to use it my ERGO, with healthy flatbands, and some 3/8 hex nuts filled with lead, they weigh 200 grains, and will penetrate 2 pieces of 1/4 plywood.
And I also practice snap shooting, like spinning around and shooting milk cartons randomly placed, I figure if i got just a FEW seconds ONE of my lead filled nuts in the face or eye of a mugger might change his mind. And I would not Hesitate. These muggers kill people. Have been practicing and am now up to 20 shots in 60 seconds, with 15 of the 20 hitting a 9 inch paper plate at 20 yards.
A friend that goes with me occasionally, will not go without his 44 magnum to these places, I still go, and carry a few Nuts, a bayonet and my shooter.
I do not own any guns anymore as 4 yr in the Marine Corps messed my body up somewhat, and I really don't care much for guns anymore.
and that's my story-Taaa-Daaaa


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## Flatband (Dec 18, 2009)

Hoorah Lloyd! I know what you mean about the Metal Detecting. As you know ,I do it too and with those **** earphones on ,you really can't hear anyone coming. I'm always looking around and checking. Flatband


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## Thwupp-p-p (Jan 17, 2010)

Bugar said:


> ...and that's my story...


*Great post, Bugar!* Very interesting!









...Although I will never be able to execute 20 shots with that kind of accuracy in one minute -- still you've made me think about the feasibility of carrying a catty for self-defense while running late at night. I've ran with pepper spray and a _Delica_ knife for many, many years, but the upside to the slingshot is that it could be more of a deterrent from a distance?! I mean with spray or a knife, it's already come up to _mano a mano _at that point anyway, right?

And it's just MHO, but I'll bet that -- if push came to shove -- a bleeding-heart court might go a leetle bit more leniently on an old geezer like me that used a natural tree-fork slingy to defend himself while jogging rather than whuppin' out a shiv or a _pistola_ to confront those gangbangin' azzhats that hassle you while out and about?! I am going to really think about this!!!


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## keeco (Feb 28, 2010)

how many beers have you guys had ?


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## stelug (Feb 6, 2010)

I can speack for direct experience. When I was teen with my crew we had the hobby of collecting car's stems (fiat, alfa, lancia, morris). Collecting means that we where patrolling our quartier with a screwdrivers in the pockets ready to steal those little piece of art from cars. I know was not smarth idea but we wher young. matter is that after few days most people where rearly hangry and started a sort of man hunting against us wich was going to end rearly bad in a no exit road. I had been lucky enaught to stop the first aggressor with a shoot in a leg with my natural fork slingshot with square rubbersand a perfect round river stone. I have seen this man walking rearly bad for more than two week after.
BTW. I am not proud of that bat is very far


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## Bugar (Dec 24, 2009)

Here's a correction on the post, my distance was 20 feet ---NOT YARDS= sorry bout that








BUT today i used my Dankung and marbles, shooting against a stopwatch, and witnessed by my wife 11 good hits out of 11 shots at the paper plate at 7 yards==21 feet in 62 seconds, but in doing so blew away my shooting pouch, I think it went just a few shots before i stopped, i had been shooting a while, for about 150 shots before i tried the timing, now I gotta get a new pouch, tried to make one but my leather was no good, works, but poorley











Bugar said:


> OK- about ammo doing the job on a agressor, What i carry when I am in a ROUGH area- muggers- toughnecks- the whole mess of badasses, I do metal detecting at these parks, have been approached a few times, and they backed off when the saw my HUGE dagger I use for digging.
> ALSO, I have and have never had to use it my ERGO, with healthy flatbands, and some 3/8 hex nuts filled with lead, they weigh 200 grains, and will penetrate 2 pieces of 1/4 plywood.
> And I also practice snap shooting, like spinning around and shooting milk cartons randomly placed, I figure if i got just a FEW seconds ONE of my lead filled nuts in the face or eye of a mugger might change his mind. And I would not Hesitate. These muggers kill people. Have been practicing and am now up to 20 shots in 60 seconds, with 15 of the 20 hitting a 9 inch paper plate at 20 yards.
> A friend that goes with me occasionally, will not go without his 44 magnum to these places, I still go, and carry a few Nuts, a bayonet and my shooter.
> ...


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## Thwupp-p-p (Jan 17, 2010)

stelug said:


> Here's a correction on the post, my distance was 20 feet ---NOT YARDS= sorry bout that
> 
> 
> 
> ...










Trust me -- it's just as amazing! You're still the


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## Jedi (Mar 10, 2010)

Just an observation on the ammo area, if you are shooting in a an area where ricochets might be dangerous then clay pellets are a good idea. If you miss your target then the clay just smashes rather than bouncing around and coming back at you (or breaking something valuable).

I've often thought you could bake shot into your pellet and then aim short , creating a spray effect in plane with the ground as the pellet breaks up.

Just my $0.02.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Bugar said:


> OK- about ammo doing the job on a agressor, What i carry when I am in a ROUGH area- muggers- toughnecks- the whole mess of badasses, I do metal detecting at these parks, have been approached a few times, and they backed off when the saw my HUGE dagger I use for digging.
> ALSO, I have and have never had to use it my ERGO, with healthy flatbands, and some 3/8 hex nuts filled with lead, they weigh 200 grains, and will penetrate 2 pieces of 1/4 plywood.
> And I also practice snap shooting, like spinning around and shooting milk cartons randomly placed, I figure if i got just a FEW seconds ONE of my lead filled nuts in the face or eye of a mugger might change his mind. And I would not Hesitate. These muggers kill people. Have been practicing and am now up to 20 shots in 60 seconds, with 15 of the 20 hitting a 9 inch paper plate at 20 yards.
> A friend that goes with me occasionally, will not go without his 44 magnum to these places, I still go, and carry a few Nuts, a bayonet and my shooter.
> ...


[/quote]

Isnt the record 7 hits in 60 seconds at 33 feet?


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## Bugar (Dec 24, 2009)

Hey I'm old and kinda KLUTZY, bout anybody should do better than i did=Try It.











dgui said:


> OK- about ammo doing the job on a agressor, What i carry when I am in a ROUGH area- muggers- toughnecks- the whole mess of badasses, I do metal detecting at these parks, have been approached a few times, and they backed off when the saw my HUGE dagger I use for digging.
> ALSO, I have and have never had to use it my ERGO, with healthy flatbands, and some 3/8 hex nuts filled with lead, they weigh 200 grains, and will penetrate 2 pieces of 1/4 plywood.
> And I also practice snap shooting, like spinning around and shooting milk cartons randomly placed, I figure if i got just a FEW seconds ONE of my lead filled nuts in the face or eye of a mugger might change his mind. And I would not Hesitate. These muggers kill people. Have been practicing and am now up to 20 shots in 60 seconds, with 15 of the 20 hitting a 9 inch paper plate at 20 yards.
> A friend that goes with me occasionally, will not go without his 44 magnum to these places, I still go, and carry a few Nuts, a bayonet and my shooter.
> ...


[/quote]

Isnt the record 7 hits in 60 seconds at 33 feet?
[/quote]


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## matthewt (Apr 17, 2010)

ui use foam earplugs as my ammo i squash them to about 4mm in diameter then in about 7 seconds there about 11mm in diameter


ZDP-189 said:


> It's not about the speed, but getting the tip to impact consistently. It'd be hard to make expanding ammo if it could impact at any angle. Shot bags and balls of shot mixed in substrates like wax are exceptions, but they have their own issues.
> 
> I have to borrow the chrono again, but the dart-balls I made tonight seem to fly as fast and without hinderance. The flights are aerodynamically efficient once straight and level, offering little drag compared to the sinker. The only purpose is to make it travel with the tip forward.
> 
> ...


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## sanjay (Feb 26, 2010)

Personally, I would like to see more slingshot ammo that is sharp while maintianing true flight. If someone had the skills to mold and pour some lead, small stellated dodecahedrons that would be amazing. Expansionmay be great, but having a symmetrical projectile with 20 potential points torip through flesh would be more practical than having to worry about orientingthe tail-feathers on the ammo in my opinion...


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

projectiles shaped like acorns . no lead , lead too heavy. momentary tumble then straigten out during flight. perhaps glass projectiles would do best to tend to spiral with spiral like groves.


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## keeco (Feb 28, 2010)

i am golng to sell my glock and start packin my bunny buster


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

If the neighborhood gets any worse I will just move, forget the glock, forget the bunny, and I dont care about the acrons, I will just move.


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## Sam (Jul 5, 2010)

I'm pretty sure that if you could make a hollow-point that worked, or tried to use anything alive as ammunition that it would be illegal!


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## haertig (Jul 30, 2010)

Expansion depends on velocity. And face it, you're just not going to get much velocity with a slingshot (compared to firearms). If I were experimenting with this, I'd work on making your slingshot ammo tumble rather than expand. For a tumbling design, you don't want spherical ammo (a round ball). Because a round ball that is tumbling (spinning) is still just a round ball.

Take for example two common rounds used in armed conflicts. NATO countries use 5.56x45 (almost, but not exactly, the same as .223 Remington). Eastern bloc countries use 5.45x39, which is similar to NATO's 5.56x45 ballistically. Both rounds can be quite devistating up close - the 5.56 by expansion and the 5.45 by tumbling. (Neither one is worth a darn for penetration however, but that's another discussion). Different designs. The 5.45 bullet looks more like a little spear than a traditional bullet. So when it tumbles, it makes a mess. Neither round is great at distance, but the 5.45 has an edge over the 5.56 there. Because the 5.56 has lost enough velocity so it does not expand, and you end up with this little bitty hole bored cleanly into your target. The 5.45 has lost velocity at distance too, but since it's design is to tumble, not expand, it does a lot more damage at distance since it will still tumble even at decreased velocity. (However, it is harder to stabilize the 5.45 bullet due to it's tumbling design. You don't want it to tumble BEFORE it hits the target, but its design wants to.)

I would think of slingshot ammo in the same light as greatly reduced velocity firearm ammo. It will be too slow to expand, so go for the tumbling aspect instead. Also look at slingshot ammo in the same light as handgun rounds. In NATO countries there has always been split opinion on "light and fast" (e.g., hot 9mm +p ammo) vs. "slow and heavy (e.g., .45acp) The 9mm will either expand and make a nice big wound, or it won't and will leave only a 9mm hole. The .45acp will always create at least a .45 caliber hole, even if it doesn't expand (and non-expansion does happen more often, since it's a relatively slow projectile). Because of the low velocity of a slingshot, I would want the bigger, heavier projectile over any smaller, lighter, faster, expandable (maybe? probably not) projectile every time. If that big heavy thing happens to tumble too, well, that's a bonus!

My personal opinion is that at the low velocities and limited range of slingshot ammo, an expanding/tumbling design probably won't add much, if anything, to the terminal ballistics. And it will probably lower speed and really trash accuracy. I think bigger, heavier conventional ammo and stronger bands will give much more bang for the buck. Just my opinion (based on zero knowledge of slingshot ammo, but at least SOME knowledge of firearm ammo).


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

Well, my bonecrushers made from hex nuts, bolts and washers have proven to cause a ton of damage to the ballistic gelatin, and also they tore a pineapple apart into two pieces.

They do tumble, clearly visible in the hi speed vid.

Jörg


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## frosty2 (Aug 23, 2010)

I heard somewhere that some Pacific Islanders hunted deer sized game with slingshots and triangular projectiles. Has anybody else heard of such a thing?
frosty2


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## jmplsnt (Jan 1, 2010)

I have heard of the Pacific Islander's exploits but in my opinion this was done with traditional slings and their incredibly worked slingstones. They made steatite double-ended stones about three inches in length, boconical in shape, that would obviously tumble in flight. These were used in both hunting and war and people were killed on a regular basis with them. The islanders regarded their slingstones so highly that one is the centerpiece of the flag of Guam (the biconical shape in the center of the flag, I believe bordered in red is the slingstone.) Do an images search for New Caledonian sling stone and you will see what I am talking about. The tumbling aspect of the stones was important enough for these primitive peoples to put forth incredible efforts into their projectiles. Do you think they would have gone through all this trouble if it wasn't needed?

The tumbling slingstone of antiquity is so well-known as to almost need no discussion. They may not have had computers and space rockets but they were as smart (if not smarter) than us and knew how to solve problems, notably in this case the creation of a hole in an opponent to "let the soul out" as I say. For people of wildly different backgrounds to arrive at exactly the same final conclusion speaks volumes to me, i.e. that the people of antiquity knew how to wring the final little bit out of man-powered projectiles for maximum damage and injury. The velocity of the sling and slingshot are quite close. I don't see why we can't carry over something that's been common knowledge for about 3,000 years in this day of instant communication.

I have long experience shooting conical pistol bullets with slingshots. The bullet I selected for my heavy-hitting special applications is the .44 caliber 1858 New Army Remington repro (used in the War of Northern Aggresion) as it is wide but also short. It tumbles in flight and the impacts are absolutely incredible.

As a strictly anecdotal footnote, I have first-hand knowledge of an alligator of about 3 1/2 feet killed instantly with a tumbling slingshot bullet in 2003.

In my shot bag I carry .31, 38, .44. and .50 lead round balls, along with a small amount of 3/8 and 1/2" egg sinkers. The egg sinkers are the new version of the biconicals of old and as I cast them myself I don't care about cost. They hit like a hammer. I also have a small quantity of the .44 conicals and a short .50 Lee muzzleloader bullet or two. The impact of the .50 conical short Lee has to be seen to be believed.

On a final note, the conical pistol bullet interests me for the following reason. A round ball fired from a slingshot travels perfectly straight with little or no rotation. When it strikes its target it has to force its way inside by straight frontal penetration. It wastes a lot of its energy like this, though it does do a good job of transfering energy to the unfortunate object/animal struck before penetrating. The pistol bullet, egg sinker, and biconical sling bullets of old tumble in flight, end-over-end. When they strike the target, their rotation is going to stretch the outer covering/skin in the direction of rotation, pulling it very tight, at which point either the sharp edge of the base of the pistol bullet or the pointed end of the biconical's smaller surface area tear the skin, allowing ingress of the bullet and horrendous scunnion ensues internally. That's why the ancients made their sling bullets as biconicals, and why the Roman Army's medical manual contains instructions the removal of INTERNAL, PENETRATED lead sling bullets, not to mention the peltists of the South Seas spending hour after hour grinding pefect slingstones versus just firing something rounded by beach erosion.

my two cents!


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## Sam (Jul 5, 2010)

JoergS said:


> Well, my bonecrushers made from hex nuts, bolts and washers have proven to cause a ton of damage to the ballistic gelatin, and also they tore a pineapple apart into two pieces.
> 
> They do tumble, clearly visible in the hi speed vid.
> 
> Jörg


They would definitely kill humans, I have no doubt of that...


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## mr.joel (Dec 21, 2009)

drill the other end out and fit a .22 blank in the hole.


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## frosty2 (Aug 23, 2010)

jmplsnt said:


> I have heard of the Pacific Islander's exploits but in my opinion this was done with traditional slings and their incredibly worked slingstones. They made steatite double-ended stones about three inches in length, boconical in shape, that would obviously tumble in flight. These were used in both hunting and war and people were killed on a regular basis with them. The islanders regarded their slingstones so highly that one is the centerpiece of the flag of Guam (the biconical shape in the center of the flag, I believe bordered in red is the slingstone.) Do an images search for New Caledonian sling stone and you will see what I am talking about. The tumbling aspect of the stones was important enough for these primitive peoples to put forth incredible efforts into their projectiles. Do you think they would have gone through all this trouble if it wasn't needed?
> 
> The tumbling slingstone of antiquity is so well-known as to almost need no discussion. They may not have had computers and space rockets but they were as smart (if not smarter) than us and knew how to solve problems, notably in this case the creation of a hole in an opponent to "let the soul out" as I say. For people of wildly different backgrounds to arrive at exactly the same final conclusion speaks volumes to me, i.e. that the people of antiquity knew how to wring the final little bit out of man-powered projectiles for maximum damage and injury. The velocity of the sling and slingshot are quite close. I don't see why we can't carry over something that's been common knowledge for about 3,000 years in this day of instant communication.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that follow up. I will do some more reading.
frosty2


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