# Tethered Active Shooting Revisited



## Arturito (Jan 10, 2013)

Now I will disclose some personal details which motivates me to write this post, many threads about it and I hope this will be the last one about this topic. When I started the PFS shooting beside watching dgui videos we started exchanging ideas (I learning) several slingshots stuff by e-mail. We become good friends from that time. Among other things I told him it was not the heat difference the responsible of improved speed (as he was claiming), myself as a long draw shooter was more prone to explain it as draw length increase (but it wasn't). Meanwhile this topic exploded with controversial positions we all know and personal attacks I will not comment any further. When he did the F-16 Daisy video I recommended him to change for lighter and more elastic tubes to verify a "theory" I had in mind, dgui also bought a crony necessary to verify his claims, and I encouraged him to go ahead with the tethered draw requested here and he did it. Seen that video I've recommended him to repeat it clarifying all aspects that could be objected and leave no room to doubts. I think (and always trust dgui) this video is undeniable and lives no room for interpretations. I only ask for the respect any honest member here deserves, for me it's an ethic to post this thread as I encouraged him to go ahead and as a friend ...






Cheers

Arturo


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## AZ Stinger (Aug 30, 2012)

Well put Arturo....cheers


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Arturo and I had an interchange on this matter by pm. Since he has seen fit to post this video here, I will post my comments previously made to Arturo.

*Well, you give the guy a LOT more credit than I do. He has already faked so much stuff it is incredible. And he has waffled around about just what he is doing to produce his alleged effect.*

*In this video, it did not appear to me that he had the tether on when he was "active" shooting. There is really no way to tell what he was doing. Personally, I would find it VERY easy to fake this sort of thing, appearing to have a tether for the active shot by just holding it between my fingers or under my thumb. Then when I quickly pull back and release, the tether would slip from my fingers as I pulled way back. Given what he shows in the video, it would not be possible to tell what I had done.*

*Now, you and I know it is an ultimately simple, simple matter to just put the camera a bit to the side to show his whole draw, not just the front hand. He knows this as well. That would settle whether or not he is just pulling back further when he does his "active" shooting. But he refuses to do so!!!! Now why do you think he refuses to show his actual draw length when doing the two shots? This whole thing is just plain silly.*

*You might want to try this little experiment. Attach a couple of strings to a pouch and the strings to your fork tips, just like the strings were bands. Make the strings about a foot long or so. Now put a ball in the pouch and pretend you are going to do some "active" shooting. Hold the ball in the pouch in your right hand, and yank your left hand forward as hard as you can and try to throw the ball with the pouch. If the ball goes more than a few feet, I will be very surprised. Yep ... I have done it myself. It just will not do anything for you, certainly not anything like 50 or 100 fps.*

*You might also try this. Hold a ball in your left hand ... the one you use to hold your fork. Then whip your left hand forward from in front of your chest as if doing "active" shooting. See how far you can throw the ball that way. I have tried this using a Chrony, and the best I can do is about 25 fps. That is nothing compared to what he is claiming.*

Cheers ..... Charles


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## AZ Stinger (Aug 30, 2012)

Charles, it would seem to me that Darrell`s new video is exactly what you wanted him to do which is show the string tied to both the pouch and the fork, filmed from a side angle, so, he has shown here that the draw length is the same and yet achieved faster speeds and I think in this video it is very easy to see what he has done with no trickery, as far as I can see he has proven his point on Active Live Shooting in a clear and precise manner and to that I say job well done Darrell....Cheers


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)




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## Arturito (Jan 10, 2013)

Charles, reviewing the video shared with you I took your objections, so requested another one to dgui and he accepted my conditions (I also needed to discard a possible fake), here it is easily noticed that in his "active shoot" he is even pulling less draw, Charles believe me this man is not cheating ... even his limitations to explain or misinterpretation he did in the past (I have clearly pointed to him) in a good or bad way doesn't dismiss what he is doing ...

Cheers

Arturo


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## freeman45 (Jun 2, 2012)

So i'm new here.. and missed the original argument...

What exactly is giving the added FPS with this "active shooting" ? His hand motion?


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

I will apologize ... The video that Arturo originally sent to me was not this video, but the usual sort with the rear hand obscured. I did not bother to look at this one before posting my comments.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## AZ Stinger (Aug 30, 2012)

freeman45 said:


> So i'm new here.. and missed the original argument...
> 
> What exactly is giving the added FPS with this "active shooting" ? His hand motion?


Active shooting is defined as one quick snap to get the shot off as opposed to pulling back and holding before releasing the pouch. The fork hand is thrust forward as you see in the video, it`s a very effective method of shooting to achieve faster speeds, I myself have chronied the speeds and the difference is astounding but it does take much practice....


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## Arturito (Jan 10, 2013)

Charles said:


> I will apologize ... The video that Arturo originally sent to me was not this video, but the usual sort with the rear hand obscured. I did not bother to look at this one before posting my comments.
> 
> Cheers ..... Charles


Charles no offence, sometimes this happens me also, no personal judgement to you ... I am interested not in who wins or loose it's completely out of my interest a dog fight, I am interested in the "effect" itself, that could be a long debate to figure out the exact cause ... but now I am much more interested my friend dgui recover his credibility as the honest man he is, I trusted him from the beginning even we didn't agree on many issues or claims he did in the past, that's why I backed him to conduct and show his findings the most transparent way possible ... I assume my responsibility on this ...

Cheers

Arturo


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## ZorroSlinger (Dec 12, 2012)

Yes, also some slight variants of active live shooting: Fork going forward and at same time, pouch hand going backwards ... in a fluid motion with almost no pause (or very minimal/fractional pause) upon release of the pouch. It is kind of a physical arm/hand/shoulder harmonious movement-action perhaps giving it, like a centrifugal added effect. Takes practice. Dgui's youtube channel has demonstrations & explaining the concepts in more detail.


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

.


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## freeman45 (Jun 2, 2012)

ahh ok gotcha.

I already suck enough with regular shooting. I won't even bother trying this "active shooting" for another few years hah


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## AZ Stinger (Aug 30, 2012)

I must say I`ve never seen a thread that involved Darrell so quiet, 166 views and barely a peep from anyone, and to me that says silence speaks volumes, it appears Darrell has fulfilled the mods demands and has finally proven his point so at this time I think we should all put this subject to rest and move on, it`s been a long dusty road......Lets get back to shooting


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## lightgeoduck (Apr 3, 2011)

AZ Stinger said:


> ?... it appears Darrell has fulfilled the mods demands...


I just want to clarify, who ever was making demands, if that was so, it was by an individual/individuals .. No way shape or form was it a representation of SSF requirements/obligations.. Everyone has opinions and some voice them one way or another and a red lettered username doesn't change that fact.

Now I didn't want to go off topic, and I apologize to Art for doing so, I just wanted to make that clear... Also not trying to single you out AZ , I am sure there are are others that had the same mind set.

LGD


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Well Guys, we certainly have come full circle haven't we?!?

First Dgui said it was due to the "fact" that the pfs has narrow forks and he releases the pouch quickly... making the rubber substantially hotter when "actively" shot... no flip or anything like that involved... just pulling the bands back quickly and releasing fast on a narrow fork is enough to give a 1/3 gain in fps.

So we did tests to check out whether that is possible or not... and it was found that what he was claiming was not possible.

As has been demonstrated many times, by me and others, forced flipping and pulling back directly in line with the shot upon release IS a way to get quite a bit more speed... but what I never told you guys was, it is possible to achieve the speed increase independant of the rubber... so long as the forced flip happens in conjunction with the rearward pull... as I've demonstrated on videos several times... fairly significant speed increases ARE possible. And as a matter of fact, I did something about a year ago to prove it to myself...

I tied paracord on a slingshot in lieu of latex and by simply doing the forced flip movement I was able to achieve over 50 fps... which happens to be about the speed increase Dgui is now claiming with his new "active shooting" technique... which in reality is now clearly a simple variant of the forced flip technique which I and others have demonstrated in the past.

This is a video from about 6 months ago by Dgui showing the method to "active" shoot... note that there is little to no front hand flipping/moving forward and the rear hand is not really actively pulling away in line on release.





Now compare that to his new video... note the technique is vastly different. He is now actively flipping forward and aggressively pulling rearward with the back hand... and like I've said from the beginning this particular technique IS viable and CAN lead to speed increases... independant of the rubber or frame, the technique itself creates more speed by simply throwing/launching the ammo while at the same time shooting.
This is nothing new and has been known for far longer than either I or Dgui have been involved with slingshots.





Some may not understand what they're seeing.... so I'll explain it.
The front hand throws the ammo much like a trebuchet, the rearward movement of the back hand creates back pressure against the front movement causing it to flip faster upon release of the pouch... you don't even need the rubber to propel the shot, just the string alone will do the trick.

You can play around with the effect yourself by holding a spoon and flipping a piece of ammo forward using just your front hand... it won't go very far... then create tension against the forward movement with your other hand... once the tension is suddenly released the ammo will shoot all the way across the room... same concept that every kid learns how to do in the lunchroom at school when shooting peas with a spoon at their friends.

Anyway, I'm through with this whole conversation. The original argument was proven wrong, and now coming up with already existing techniques to try and prove a failed point is in itself futility.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

This is heart breaking. We have some great guys in this forum. The mods are great. The owner is great. The members are great guys. Why would anyone think that someone else was lying about what he believes? Why would anyone want to attribute to some other member, moderator or vendor, a will to short change the community or to be self serving?

This is just childish. If Darrel believes what he is saying, why suggest he is lying. Maybe he has a point. I have seen videos from Bill which suggest that he gets additional velocity by "flipping" the slingshot. Why is that hard for anyone?

Why are ANY of you making this HARD? Why can't we just respect each other's opinions?


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

treefork said:


> .


Well said!


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## AZ Stinger (Aug 30, 2012)

lightgeoduck said:


> AZ Stinger said:
> 
> 
> > ?... it appears Darrell has fulfilled the mods demands...
> ...


My apology LGD, it should have been mod`s as it was just one fellow who made the demand, never mean`t to imply anything else.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

Bill Hays said:


> As has been demonstrated many times, by me and others, forced flipping and pulling back directly in line with the shot upon release IS a way to get quite a bit more speed... but what I never told you guys was, it is possible to achieve the speed increase independant of the rubber...


So yeah, Bill... That happens because the limit of the bands have been reached and flipping is the thing that is added before the bands are released.



Bill Hays said:


> Some may not understand what they're seeing.... so I'll explain it.
> The front hand throws the ammo much like a trebuchet, the rearward movement of the back hand creates back pressure against the front movement causing it to flip faster upon release of the pouch... you don't even need the rubber to propel the shot, just the string alone will do the trick.


Exactly, point well made.
You have argued the same effect in your own videos.



Bill Hays said:


> Anyway, I'm through with this whole conversation. The original argument was proven wrong, and now coming up with already existing techniques to try and prove a failed point is in itself futility.


You are through with this conversation everytime, until you are ready to engage again.

I don't know why you and Darrel don't like each other, I don't. What I do know is this. You are acting like you own this forum and he is acting like a man who is trying to explain his position. Sadly, I don't think he is as equipped to explain what he is trying to say as you are, and I don't think he has as many friends here.

That does not make him wrong.

I am from Texas too. Real men talk to each other, not about each other.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

Let me say that one more time. "Real men talk TOO each other not about each other."


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

AZ Stinger said:


> it appears Darrell has fulfilled the mods demands and has finally proven his point so at this time I think we should all put this subject to rest and move on,


nope, its just that we're tired of his s&@t.



OldSpookASA said:


> I am from Texas too. Real men talk to each other, not about each other.


 :rolling: reminds me of . . .


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## ZorroSlinger (Dec 12, 2012)

OldSpookASA :thumbsup:

I respect people's knowledge and experience in the slingshot sport but there are other concepts, theories, views, (some may not agree with) and a forum is a place to exchange & share those ideas, then let the individuals make up their own minds. No need to get on the negativity track (like what Imperial just posted - "Nope, its just that we're tired of his s&@t"). Just talking in general and not singling out anyone . Come on people ... there are much WORSE PROBLEMS & ISSUES out there to get *angry* about!


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

Here is the deal lads;

Darrel has actually proven his point. He has. Sorry Bill. It is what it is.

He proved his point. Bill.. It does not make you less. You are still the worlds guru of slingshots. You can still do 420 plus FPS with the ammo of your choice. We get it, you have to be the top dog.

Be done with it, Bill.

I actually liked you and respected you before I gave up all hope.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

OldSpookASA said:


> Bill Hays said:
> 
> 
> > As has been demonstrated many times, by me and others, forced flipping and pulling back directly in line with the shot upon release IS a way to get quite a bit more speed... but what I never told you guys was, it is possible to achieve the speed increase independant of the rubber...
> ...


Well Spook, when someone brings up a new point that seems on the surface to be valid... I feel an obligation to answer it.

So if there is a valid point raised I'll answer to that... but just to carry on writing for no particular reason, THAT is the conversation I'm done with.

As for why I dislike Darrell... maybe you were raised in a different part of Texas than I was, but around here when someone blatantly calls you a liar, a blowhard and just generally shows comtempt and disrespect in a public place... well those are "fighting" words and deeds. Since a physical altercation is out of the question... a public point by point rebuttal of his claims had to be made.


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## AZ Stinger (Aug 30, 2012)

Bill Hays said:


> Well Guys, we certainly have come full circle haven't we?!?
> 
> First Dgui said it was due to the "fact" that the pfs has narrow forks and he releases the pouch quickly... making the rubber substantially hotter when "actively" shot... no flip or anything like that involved... just pulling the bands back quickly and releasing fast on a narrow fork is enough to give a 1/3 gain in fps.
> 
> ...


All due respect Bill but this thread was never mean`t to be directed at you or concern you, and I speak for Darrell as he is unable to express himself here, the video was made to answer a challenge presented by Charles as you can see in his post above, Darrell, being accused of faking his shots for alleged effects felt compelled to clear up any allegations so he made the video to prove Charles wrong, which he clearly did, so as you can now see it was just between the two of them and nothing more, lot`s of hard feelings over the years but like I said earlier it`s time to put this one to rest


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

Bill Hays said:


> a new point that seems on the surface to be valid... I feel an obligation to answer it.
> So if there is a valid point raised I'll answer to that... but just to carry on writing for no particular reason, THAT is the conversation I'm done with.
> 
> As for why I dislike Darrell... maybe you were raised in a different part of Texas than I was, but around here when someone blatantly calls you a liar, a blowhard and just generally shows comtempt and disrespect in a public place... well those are "fighting" words and deeds. Since a physical altercation is out of the question... a public point by point rebuttal of his claims had to be made.


Bill, you are always done with it when it is what you want. I don't really give a damn what you have called Darrel or what Darrel has called you because from my place in Texas you have both been jack asses.

You have both embarrassed me and for God's sake you have both embarrassed men of reason.

Why are we doing this in public when men who both are passionate about what they believe could just sort it between themselves?

You know that Darrel is not commenting here, you are... maybe you should ring his phone.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

AZ Stinger said:


> All due respect Bill but this thread was never mean`t to be directed at you or concern you, and I speak for Darrell as he is unable to express himself here


Is Darrel banned?


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## AZ Stinger (Aug 30, 2012)

OldSpookASA said:


> AZ Stinger said:
> 
> 
> > All due respect Bill but this thread was never mean`t to be directed at you or concern you, and I speak for Darrell as he is unable to express himself here
> ...


Darrell is blocked from making comments at this time


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

AZ Stinger said:


> OldSpookASA said:
> 
> 
> > AZ Stinger said:
> ...


Do we know who blocked him and do we know why?


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## AZ Stinger (Aug 30, 2012)

OldSpookASA said:


> AZ Stinger said:
> 
> 
> > OldSpookASA said:
> ...


Darrell just said he was blocked by Henry because he upset a vendor.....There ya go


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

Ok well back to the subject which is Darrell has made his point. Sorry Bill but point made.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

AZ Stinger said:


> OldSpookASA said:
> 
> 
> > AZ Stinger said:
> ...


Yep... I got that one in exactly one... Upset a vendor so blocked by HENRY... Yeah got that....

This kind of **** needs to stop....

I am a supporting vendor. I do not expect to have a more valid opinion than some person who simply shoots slingshots. That would be stupid. Maybe someone who just shoots them will have an opinion about how I can build them better. For that matter, I fail to understand how some guy in Panama who is not a vendor could possibly have a more valid opinion than some other person who also shoots slingshots....

I understand that forums need managers. I am not sure that forums need managers who do absolutely nothing but run roughshod over other members whose opinions the disagree with...

I am just saying... You have an opinion, great. You are a moderator and you have an opinion? KEEP IT TO YOUR DAMN SELF.


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## ZorroSlinger (Dec 12, 2012)

There is more than one moderator. Can you all get together and democratically vote to unblock Darrell? Maybe at time Henry thought is was right decision to stop dispute? I don.t know. Now knowing about this, that is so totally @#/$&/¿ UNFAIR.

It's okay to review moderators past decisions & actions. Please reconsider unblockiing Darrell. It's history .... move foreward, fresh start.


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## Hrawk (Oct 25, 2010)

OldSpookASA said:


> You are a moderator and you have an opinion? KEEP IT TO YOUR **** SELF.


Today I learnt that moderators are not allowed to share opinions.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

ZorroSlinger said:


> There is more than one moderator. Can you all get together and democratically vote to unblock Darrell? Maybe at time Henry thought is was right decision to stop dispute? I don.t know. Now knowing about this, that is so totally @#/$&/¿ UNFAIR.
> 
> It's okay to review moderators past decisions & actions. Please reconsider unblockiing Darrell. It's history .... move foreward, fresh start.


Not going to happen. Sorry. That is not going to happen. There is a ranking system. Henry is at the top.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

Hrawk said:


> OldSpookASA said:
> 
> 
> > You are a moderator and you have an opinion? KEEP IT TO YOUR **** SELF.
> ...


Guess why? BECAUSE THEY ARE ALLOWED TO SHUT OTHER PEOPLE UP.
Any part of that you dont understand?


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## lightgeoduck (Apr 3, 2011)

Darell is not blocked.. If he was in the past, that is not for me to discuss, but apparently it was misunderstood, because it isn't how it is stated... No need to stir the pot OS, that is fuel that you are holding not water... So you are not helping with any fires.

LGD


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

freeman45 said:


> So i'm new here.. and missed the original argument...
> 
> What exactly is giving the added FPS with this "active shooting" ? His hand motion?


Don't worry about that. It's ongoing and will doubtless be repeated ad nauseum. If you're really interested search the Forum for "dgui".


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

I need to get another beer and more popcorn if this cat fight goes on any longer. With the way people are behaving on this good luck with ever starting up the NCA it will be nothing but a bitch fest.


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## ruthiexxxx (Sep 15, 2012)

Bill Hays said:


> As has been demonstrated many times, by me and others, forced flipping and pulling back directly in line with the shot upon release IS a way to get quite a bit more speed... but what I never told you guys was, it is possible to achieve the speed increase independant of the rubber... so long as the forced flip happens in conjunction with the rearward pull... as I've demonstrated on videos several times... fairly significant speed increases ARE possible. And as a matter of fact, I did something about a year ago to prove it to myself...
> I tied paracord on a slingshot in lieu of latex and by simply doing the forced flip movement I was able to achieve over 50 fps...


Thank you for mentioning this. I was about to attempt the same thing out of curiosity and you have saved me the trouble.

I was first struck by the possible benefit of flipping whilst watching a survival programme..."Man, Woman Wild ".
In one episode Captain Hawk improvised a slingshot just using a bit of bungee from his rucksack. It's elastic properties must have been negligible and there wasn't much of it anyway and I seriously doubted that it would be any use at all. And yet he managed to stun some small creature enough to catch it and finish it off. I noticed that he used a very pronounced flipping action and suspect that most of the power for the shot came from this.


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

Just to set a point straight, Darrell was never blocked. I put him on moderated status for 5 days.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

This subject has gone past anything useful.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

I personally don't care if you active shoot , flip shoot , dead shoot , shoot it out your mouth, shoot it out your a-- I'm sick of this subject.


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## Aussie Allan In Thailand (Jan 28, 2013)

For my own 2 cents worth, I could care less about dgui's speed increases.

As for that I use only heavier bands and approach as near as my own limitations permit, draw aim as I approach full draw, then release smoothly immediately upon full draw.

My own amazement comes from his pure speed of reloading from his palmed ammo/shot.

A feat I could never accomplish in a million years of practice.

Cheers Allan


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## lightgeoduck (Apr 3, 2011)

We'll based off the OT this shouldn't have been a thread needing locking... But I am sure this turn out wasn't the intent of this thread..

Sorry, but gotta do it 

LGD


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