# Long Draw Fun



## GrayWolf (May 14, 2012)

Since I have a new PFS from Arturo, I decided to do some playing with the longer draw today. I've been saving pop bottle tops for a while and this was a good excuse to use a few.

It's quite a mixture of different parts.. 3 different frames, 2 different bands (.03 latex and TBG), 2 different cuts of the bands (15mm x 9mm and 3/4" x 9/16"..thanks Lee) and 2 different ammo sizes (3/8 and 7/16)

Both sizes of bands throw the ammo down range pretty well, but the wider bands gave me a lot of hand slap, so I went with the 7/16" and the speed is still really good...I would not be afraid to hunt rabbit or squirrel with that setup.






I've been having more fun shooting Butterfly lately than any other style. The accuracy isn't there...for me...but the fun factor is making up for it.

Thanks for watching.

Todd


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Very nice shooting, GW!

Cheers ... Charles


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## S.S. sLinGeR (Oct 17, 2013)

Great shooting Todd!


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## devils son in law (Sep 2, 2014)

Great shooting, GW!! What were you using for ammo?


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## GrayWolf (May 14, 2012)

Thanks everyone.

Devil...I was using 3/8" and 7/16" steel.

Todd


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## leon13 (Oct 4, 2012)

Cool having fun !
Cheers


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

Do you get a lot of hand slap when you long draw a full frame? I'm kinda wondering if perhaps your exaggerating your PFS style release a bit too much with that long draw.... The ball and pouch have a lot more space and time to develop a seriously arched trajectory shooting butterfly.... Have you had many rts? when you miss, do you tend to miss to the right? I know you didn't ask.... but a while back you did(mantis post) , and I've had your shot in my mind ever since... You are a great shooter, Todd. Hand slap can really screw with a guy's... Everything!... I have never tried to diagnose anyone else's form before but ours are so similar i kinda wonder if I might be able to help... You'll have to let me know.. Cool video as always buddy.. Nice shooters as well!


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## sharp eye (Jun 3, 2014)

Great shooting, I also enjoy shooting the Conus, very good shooter


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## GrayWolf (May 14, 2012)

Lee Silva said:


> Do you get a lot of hand slap when you long draw a full frame? I'm kinda wondering if perhaps your exaggerating your PFS style release a bit too much with that long draw.... The ball and pouch have a lot more space and time to develop a seriously arched trajectory shooting butterfly.... Have you had many rts? when you miss, do you tend to miss to the right? I know you didn't ask.... but a while back you did(mantis post) , and I've had your shot in my mind ever since... You are a great shooter, Todd. Hand slap can really screw with a guy's... Everything!... I have never tried to diagnose anyone else's form before but ours are so similar i kinda wonder if I might be able to help... You'll have to let me know.. Cool video as always buddy.. Nice shooters as well!


Lee, thank you for the kind words, any and all help that you wish to offer is always welcome...anytime.

I only have one frame that I have tried butterfly with and I don't get any more handslap with that one then with a PFS. I have only had one RTS (so far) and that was trying to soft shoot...not full butterfly.

I did notice your grip and release on your latest video, and tried it tonight. So far, no fork hits, and I tried the same release with a PFS...and still no fork hits. My accuracy went right out the window, but at least I didn't break any :rofl: .

I do get a lot of handslap...enough that a long session will be felt for a couple of days. I get the pouch hitting my little finger square in the knuckle over and over...until it's tender to the touch. I do try to flip, but it's one of those things that is not natural to me....I have to think about it every shot. I have some very small pouches from Leon that I haven't tried yet. I'm going to make up a band set and see if that will help. I also just receive one of the Lil' Plinkers from Simple Shot...I'll band that one up for butterfly and see what happens.

I do get hit to the right when I try to use larger or heavier ammo when using the PFS style hold and release. The speed bump causes them to swing out farther and they don't straighten out. 1/2" steel can hit 8"+ to the right. I'm sure that a normal butterfly release will get rid of that, or at least lessen the severity.

Please, diagnose away. I know that I will be watching your videos over and over to fine tune my attempt at this style. There is just something about it...the speed and power with such little pull, and when it's done right (meaning the way YOU do it) it just looks cool.

Todd


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

Well if there's one thing I know anything about, it's chronic bandslap! Like a total meat head I toughed through my first year of long draw shooting figuring it must be some kind of rite of passage to slowly kill the nerves in my frame hand.... If that were the case, then I came real close to becoming a man ,shootin butterfly! Hehehehe This is what my hand looked like just before I realized that something wasn't right!









To be cont...... 2oclock and sleeepeee!


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## M.F (Jul 10, 2014)

My draw today is 48" and is really fun get that extra speed and Power 

Keeo up the good work my friend´ :thumbsup:


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## Tag (Jun 11, 2014)

Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have one scar from my slingshot, but after seeing your hand I'm not going to mention mine anymore. Hope that never happens again for your sake.


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## oldmiser (Jan 22, 2014)

Nice shooting Gray Wolf....And looking at Lee's hand is why I do not shoot PFS shooter any more....Being 70yrs old...to hard to heal up

For those of you who can shoot Butterfly.. hey more to ya my friends....I have decided it is not for me......

Well Gray Wolf keep after it..Have fun like always....May your ammo fly straight..~AKAOldmiser.


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## Tag (Jun 11, 2014)

Nice shooting!!!!


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## GrayWolf (May 14, 2012)

Lee Silva said:


> Well if there's one thing I know anything about, it's chronic bandslap! Like a total meat head I toughed through my first year of long draw shooting figuring it must be some kind of rite of passage to slowly kill the nerves in my frame hand.... If that were the case, then I came real close to becoming a man ,shootin butterfly! Hehehehe This is what my hand looked like just before I realized that something wasn't right!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I tried the band measurements that you gave me, and at least for me, 3/8" ammo is waaaayyyyy to light. I went up to 7/16" and it was better, but still slapped me good. At 1/2" steel, the slap was pretty much gone, but the speed sent down a long way.

So far, my favorite bands are 15mm x 9mm x 11 1/2" to 12" active length. The speed is decent, the pull is very light and the handslap is something I can deal with...and if I remember to flip, then it's not there at all. With anything faster, I still get a slap with a flip.


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## flippinfool (Aug 22, 2014)

You sure a truck didn't run over that hand. I thought mine just turning a little red was bad till you showed that.


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

Ok then... What you are seeing in that photo is the major callus that had formed over that first year of shooting 12" bands. The fact that you say the actual impact is to your pinkie tells me that the problem could very well be that release. After hearing you describe your bands, I can't help but feel that your setup is contributing as well. The problem with a lot of the popular remedies here on the forum is that they are remedies for a very different setup and style. A lot of these just do not apply to what we are doing!! Lighter pouches do help, no matter what your draw, but having to shoot heavier ammo in order to overcome bandslap is, to me more annoying than bandslap! The idea here is to shoot faster and to hit harder! With a proper release you should be able to dry fire any of those bands without a hint of slap.

Stop.... Regroup

Where is ms,Susi when you need her?!?!

That lady can explain a concept like no other! I swear she doesn't even need to breathe!

I'm gunna go take some shots to clarify my thoughts... Rumplemintz or Wild Turkey101? that is the question!


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## GrayWolf (May 14, 2012)

I'm very interested to hear your thoughts on getting rid of hand slap. Maybe a short video of how you hold the pouch and the release. Close ups are always appreciated.

I have been using roo pouches so other than going to a smaller one weight is as low as it can get.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Todd


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

Im thinking much less "speed bumpin" and shortening your bands enough to get that real power and speed that will also help flatten out the path of your bands and payload........ It's going to be the last thing that you want to do but get a thin glove for piece of mind and protection in case it doesnt work(LOL) and let em fly! Full draw! Don't fall short of whatever your "Full" draw is. that would defeat the purpose! Please PM me with any vulgarities you may want/need to express following the experiment ..... Shoot fast!!!!


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## GrayWolf (May 14, 2012)

I don't really care about fast...If it will cut a card...I'm happy. What I do want is to be able to shoot all day without pain for several days...either from hand slap or too heavy of pull. On days that I can shoot all day, I can throw over 500 rounds down range.

I'll keep at it...it's too much fun and I'm too stubborn to quit.


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## Tag (Jun 11, 2014)

That's scary I just agreed 100% with GW.


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

I'm not sure, but I think you may be missing my point. Maybe I am missing yours.... I'm going to have to reread this dialog.


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

Im confused... If not concerned with speed, why shoot butterfly?

What I'm trying to help you with is handslap while shooting butterfly. My hand does not look like that picture any more, and hasn't for some time. I'm sharing what I know to be the reason it doesn't.


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## GrayWolf (May 14, 2012)

Tag said:


> That's scary I just agreed 100% with GW.


I strongly recommend that you re think your position.


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## GrayWolf (May 14, 2012)

[q auote name="Lee Silva" post="465468" timestamp="1411674153"]Im confused... If not concerned with speed, why shoot butterfly? 
What I'm trying to help you with is handslap while shooting butterfly. My hand does not look like that picture any more, and hasn't for some time. I'm sharing what I know to be the reason it doesn't.[/quote]

I can shoot butterfly and get the speed I want and have less pull. 8 pound pull is better than 15 pound pull when you add up the number of shots I like to do in a day. If I can up the power and speed and get rid of the slap...I'm all for that. I'm willing to try just about any suggestion to keep the slap away.


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