# Survey on OTT vs. TTF



## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Has anyone gone through the member profiles and tallied up how many OTT vs. TTF shooters there are.

No, I'm not up for the challenge but am curious to know the numbers. I would imagine most new shooters go OTT since the natural inclination is to grab any slingshot hammer grip style. I was afraid to go TTF at first until watching Bill Hays videos on the ins and outs of shooting TTF and got started with his suggestion of the aiming line on the top band. Helps to be shooting a frame with a wider fork gap also when going TTF.

No need to do a survey since the results would not be accurate with only a few members posting their preferences and those preferences are already recorded on the profile pages. However, it might take a week or three to go through each member profile one by one to come up with a more accurate number.


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## Abenso (Apr 28, 2017)

I started ttf and prefer it. I'm working my way into ott

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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

JR - think people go through 'stages' where they seem to prefer either.

Think with bands TTF has some built-in accuracy but it comes at a cost of a setup that needs to be accurately implemented to get the best out of. OTT has its own advantages in its a lower profile and is less fiddly to set up.

Tubes are the way to go


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## Tag (Jun 11, 2014)

OTT for me!! I am the best at fork hits TTF


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## FlatheadShooter58 (Apr 28, 2017)

Some of my slingshots are OTT and some are TTF. Accuracy is a little better for me TTF but within a few shots I can nail my 1” spinners OTT too.


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## tastetickles (Jul 3, 2017)

Have both TTF and OTT, personally preferred OTT as I like butterfly shooting and pfs though haven't tried any.

In terms of accuracy they are both the same if I "aim" but intuitively I prefer shooting OTT


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Ttf for target shooting and competitions. Ott for plinking and hunting.


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## you'llshootyereyeout (Apr 5, 2014)

OTT when the chips are down. Either for fun. Started OTT. Then moved to TTF. I liked the way the bands could be flat all the way to the pouch. Finally switched back to OTT, I prefer the vertical edge of the left fork tip as a reference point.


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## Slingster (Apr 13, 2016)

I have only been doing it since last year, but for some reason tend to shoot TTF more. Not sure why really. I have tried OTT, but just seem to be more accurate with TTF. I like the idea of simple OTT frames though and need to experiment more.


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

OTT for me


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## Northerner (Nov 9, 2010)

I shoot mainly OTT


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## MIsling (Sep 7, 2017)

Mostly ott for me, but ill do ttf every once in a while.


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## Slingster (Apr 13, 2016)

Just out of curiosity, why do you guys prefer one over the other?


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

TTF for ultimate accuracy.. safer, easier, no handslap.

OTT when shooting faster, and because it's further from the hand, for shooting irregular shaped ammo ie. rocks.


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## Michael71 (Apr 23, 2017)

I shoot both. I am more accurate with ttf but I don't prefer one over the other.

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## MIsling (Sep 7, 2017)

I prefer ott because when side shooting the bands form one thin sighting line as apposed to a line the width of your bands with ttf. I can shoot either way, ott just seems easier mentally

Just wondering Bill, why do you say ttf is safer?

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## Hulla Baloo (Nov 25, 2017)

He may be referring to handslap MI, and the potential for RTS. In TTF setups the rubber loses much of its rebound energy as it bunches and crashes through the forks, whereas OTT allows the rubber to arc over unimpeded, meaning more energy is left over to come back and git ya. I shoot both but I prefer TTF.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Mr. Nice is right... OTT has an increased potential for "return to sender" (RTS) shots over TTF.

In the years I've been shooting both, OTT and TTF... I've had three RTS using OTT and zero RTS using TTF, even though I shoot TTF about 3 or 4 times more than OTT.

IF you shoot with a worn, kind of sloppy pouch... ammo doesn't necessarily release when it should right at the point where the band's slack length occurs... When shooting TTF, the pouch is forced to open when going through the gap.... With OTT there is no force open part of the band travel so the potential for RTS is always there, even with new pouches.

Plus, for TTF, because the bands travel linear through the forks and return the same handslap is not usually an issue. But because most OTT setups tie to the end of the fork and a short, tiny amount of slack band is on the opposite side, the effect is of a more arc shaped travel trajectory for the bands after they pass over the fork... thus giving the potential for some pretty decent handslap from the returning bands.

Here you can see what I'm talking about:


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## MIsling (Sep 7, 2017)

Cool, thanks.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

While we're on the subject of ott and ttf, who prefers to have a slingshot with universal forks allowing it to be banded ott or ttf. Or do you prefer a slingshot that only supports one of the two....and do you prefer a slingshot to allow for both tubes and bands or should a slingshot be tubes or bands only?


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## jazz (May 15, 2012)

Here you can see what I'm talking about:






Hi Bill,

I did not know about this video.. anyway, thank you for sharing with us the information you get through experimenting, and for the instructive videos you make.

I learned a lot from you for all these years!

cheers,

jazz


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Bill's videos are like offering a free online college education in slingshot shooting.


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## Ukprelude (Apr 17, 2016)

Ttf is my fav for accuracy and hunting, ott for general plinking. Not a great fan of universal tips so prefer to have dedicated frames for each style.

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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

JR that's a fiddly question. I think designs that are single use tend to look cleaner and work better generally. OTT specific frames can be very compact and be more comfortable to shoot but TTF frames may as well be universal. Some OTT designs incorporate tubes quite well... Think if you're going commercial then it makes sense to offer flexibility but its really down to the frame maker what his criteria are and who he's selling to.


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## mostho (Mar 28, 2017)

I go for both but most for TTF. I feel more comfortable with it.


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## Hobbit With A Slingshot (Mar 14, 2017)

Honestly? I got 2 partial card splits, and crumpled the corner of a 3rd card using an OTT setup. And we've all seen what Bill Hays can do with just about anything that a person can attach bands to (I kinda want to see him shoot bareback, but I understand that he probably wants to keep his hands intact). I recently made some TTF shooters, and I like it as well. So, at least for me, one setup doesn't seem to be more accurate than another. So at this point I'm fine using either, and I feel that they both work great. Having started out using OTT, and aiming down the thin edge of the bands, and then going to TTF where I have this big wide stretch of rubber to aim with... well, drawing a line on the bands has really helped. So while both have their ups and downs, as long as the frame is properly designed for the application, I see no problem with either.

Or, to cut through my rambling ("More matter, less art" as it were): I think it comes down mostly to personal preference, and the rest is application, but of the two, I'd say that personal preference rules.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

I agree with Hobbit.

Think when you're starting out TTF is super accurate and you can quickly get some nice results accuracy wise. But I find OTT just as accurate - and I prefer smaller more compact frames so OTT type setups are great. From a flat band standpoint. Also OTT can be way more comfortable as the forces are more supported which means can shoot for longer... This is why I think people tend to go through phases - OTT then TTF then back to OTT... I suspect OTT is the more common connoisseur's proffered attachment approach. Unless you name is Bill or John.

However I use tubes a lot and majority of these frames are in principal TTF but have the compactness similar to OTT frames...


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

mattwalt said:


> JR that's a fiddly question. I think designs that are single use tend to look cleaner and work better generally. OTT specific frames can be very compact and be more comfortable to shoot but TTF frames may as well be universal. Some OTT designs incorporate tubes quite well... Think if you're going commercial then it makes sense to offer flexibility but its really down to the frame maker what his criteria are and who he's selling to.


Matt: Not as interested in going commercial as I am in just getting quality yet affordable slingshots into the hands of new shooters who have expressed an interest. So far, I've given away a dozen or so slingshots. But the WOW factor has really come into play now when they see the steel frames. Not interested in competing with other slingshot makers but just in having one always available to put in the hands of someone who shows an interest. Haven't collected any $$$$ yet but certainly not opposed to it.

The main considerations I have taken into account are the comments from non shooters who have expressed their prejudices and uninformed thoughts on how a slingshot should look, feel and be held in the hand. About 100% grab a slingshot in the hammer/pistol grip even if it is clearly not designed for such a grip. Takes some doing to convince them to even try to hold it in a pinch grip or thumb brace. I know that I started with the Wrist Rocket then progressed to the Tac Hammer and the A+ Kit Fox before I started getting interested in some of the other more ergo designs. I also began shooting OTT in the beginning and that is what everyone I have had a chance to let shoot does. The TTF shooting is something that seems foreign to new shooters. I've come to prefer TTF but have not mastered it yet.....meaning, I still cant light a match. Need to work on that more enthusiastically.

I've realized that new shooters appreciate a fork that is wider and a bit higher than a lot of designs in order to limit fork hits. They are attracted to a more "traditional" looking slingshot. Or something that has some real weight and feel in the hand to it. Hence the steel frames....along with the 100% guarantee that it will not break and is almost harm free from fork hit damage. I'm working on coming up with a design be it a hybrid of something else or whatever that will be a good TTF shooter for the new shooter or who has progressed to the point that they want to give it a shot.

Comments concerning favoring dedicated TTF or OTT slingshots are great...I prefer having several set up in various configurations. However, the Scout has gained its popularity be cause it is all things to all shooters which allows it to be shot in any grip style...even if it is not a very good hammer grip slingshot.....and can be shot with TTF or OTT or with tubes once cut to do so. The Scout is not a dedicated slingshot...kind a Jack of all Trades but Master of None.

I will keep my designs simple and limited in number with OTT and TTF models and maybe even a tube shooter but would like to keep working at it until I come up with a good universal fork design. Plenty of them out there, I just need to pair the fork design with a Jack

of all Trades grip. But that is something on the back burner.

Anyway, I'm having fun doing more than just shooting slingshots. When I showed one of my custom slingshots to someone they would ask if I made that. So why not be able to say YES I MADE THAT.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

JR - you're misunderstanding me... All I'm getting at is that binding attachment approach is purely at the builder's preference to what they see works best for the expected end user.

If it were me making a frame for a complete novice I have some opinions of my own. And granted almost ALL noobs grab in hammer at 90º - though ease of maintenance also needs to be a huge contributing factor - guys need a really simple setup that has readily available spares as well.

At the end of the day they just want to grab something a shoot stuff - have some fun.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Matt: My goal is to build to the expectations of the end user, not mine. A frame that will draw the new shooter to pick it up and shoot it. I've laid them all out on the table and said pick one....I have an idea now about which frames beg to be picked out of the batch. Without exception they grab for the Alley Cat or my Python. The smaller ergo or plastic frames don't grab their attention. Now however, when they see this 1/4" flat steel frame they want one. Interesting that not a single individual has expressed interest in the lightweight aluminum frames. They like that feel of something with substance in their hand and the assurance that it will not break.

Ease of use and just want to shoot something....exactly why I'm making them without having to wrap and tuck. I have not yet met anyone who is not a slingshot shooter who claims to know how to tie bands to a slingshot. Something that is quick and easy to attach bands to. Just like cjw says he shoots the SPS because he can quickly change tubes.

Thanks for all the valuable input. Feel free to share your ideas of designing a slingshot for the new shooter also.


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## truthornothing (May 18, 2015)

shoot TF 99 percent of the time. I have some ott frames that That I can hit with but not as consistently as with my TTF setups. I agree with Matt that Dedicated tips are cleaner than multi fuction but disagree that if you are goint TTF they may as well be universal. (I have a new design in works that bears this out  )


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

ToN - With regards to TTF as universal - only for starter frames as it allows some flexibility (a cheap way to try different approaches as a beginner) - I prefer a one system clean approach personally. Just from a 'production' point of view producing 3 or 4 different frames is a lot more work than one. Its just much easier adding some OTT grooves to an TTF frame than vice versa.

JR - I totally agree with you. You have deduced a n approach which you believe is a great starting point (and it does). Mine may probably be very similar though yet quite different due to my experiences.

I would probably edge towards a Rambini design - 12mm HDPE with holes for a looped tube 'matchstick' attachment. Its a small frame that allows for a hammer grip while also allowing a pinch or supported grip. HDPE because its tough and weatherproof. Looped bands with matchstick because its very simple to attach and is inherently accurate.

Sure Tag would promote the PP Micro Ranger, Many would say Boyscout or Axiom Champ (in any of the attachment versions) or the Wasp UniPhoxx...


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## S.C.Daniel (Nov 7, 2017)

When I was a kid I learned to shoot OTT. I had never thought about banding a slingshot for TTF.

Fast Forward 60 years and I started shooting again. OTT. I have since set up and shot TTF.

I had a few fork hits, said to heck with it and went back to OTT.

On this forum I learned about the PFS. Tried it and love it, just another way of convincing me to stay with OTT.

I can see where the potential is there for TTF to be more accurate, but it's not for me.

I mostly shoot Instinctively and OTT works well for me.

Maybe it's because I shot a Recurve bow instinctively.

I have used the same anchor point for both for decades. It works for me.


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## enryx518 (Jun 5, 2017)

For me its TTF... i have difficulties on the OTT and having fork hits so i just stick with TTF


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## Slingster (Apr 13, 2016)

So after shooing the Small Ranger OTT frame I built this past month a lot, I am really liking OTT. Other frames like the Olularis Axoim I get lots of hand slap and poor accuracy, but with the small Ranger, it is quite the opposite. With the Sm Ranger I am very accurate and get no hand slap. Love that frame.


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