# Review: 2 of Bill Hays Injection Molded Frames



## RyanL

At the MWST I was able to grab the Scorpion and my wife grabbed the RangerOTT. The material is really nice. Based off of seeing Bill's demos and letting my nearly 2yr old son use it as a hammer to distract him during the tournament, I can say the durability is good. The texture is a little different than I was expecting. For some reason I had thought they were going to have a grip similar to an orange or grapefruit but they're smoother than that. Not slippery just smoother. The ergonamics of them hold well in the hand. Obviously I've been able to shoot with the two I have but I was able to hold all but the TAC Hammer. Interestingly, TruthorNothing and I noticed that the new HTS is a little thicker than the ballistic resin version. The grip seemed the same though. And I got to watch Deranda Hays(God I hope I'm spelling that right) shoot the gator clamps on a wire frame all weekend. I didn't get to touch or operate them so the best I can say is they did exactly what they are advertised to do.

I did support Bill's campaign and chose the Top Shot. I got to hold a Top Shot at the tournament and Bill even offered to let me take it, along with the two we had already grabbed. I really liked the hold but I didn't want to be greedy and I already have one on the way. Plus, I saw that a new shooter at the tournament got it and that made me happy. The other option with that perk was the RangerOTT. This and the Scorpion were the other two frames I really wanted to get from the campaign so I'm happy to have them. However I may have to order another Scorpion, more on that later. At first hold I noticed how big the throat of the frame was and felt that pinch grip was out of the question for most shooters. Thankfully, I'm a thumb support shooter and that felt great. I shot it some at the tournament but did most testing at home. That's were I changed my mind about pinch grip. It was very comfortable and well balanced. Not digging into your hand. At first glance of this frame you may not see it but after shooting it a bit you can tell Bill spent some time on ergonomics with this design. If this shape was just uniformly made on a router table, with that big of a throat shooting pinch grip my hand would be in pain after 20 shots. Thumbs up Bill.

The Scorpion. I started shooting slingshots TTF and have officially converted to OTT. However, if there was one frame to convert me back, or at the least keep me interested in TTF it was going to be the Scorpion. And it has. Like I said I grabbed this for myself but my wife shot with it a little at the tournament before we left for home. She did really well and she did it in front of Bill. Well it has became hers. So we'll have to share or I'll have to order my own cause I love this thing too. I noticed not all Scorpions are the same. He has a thumb support design(the one you can order from Milbros) and this pinch grip design. And I think he picked the right one to sell to the masses. When my wife grab this I'm thinking it's going to be too big. WRONG! with how well this thing fits the hand and fills in to the webbing of your hand, it should fit anyone. I think my 7yr old could shoot this frame. Even the slight grove to guide your figure to the pinky hole helps lock your hand in place but also gives you a consistent grip which translates to consistent accuracy. Anyway, while testing it at home with my preferred band set, ammo, draw length, anchor and aiming point I was consistently high. Logic told me to raise my anchor but it was uncomfortably close to my eye then. So I got use to aiming about 6inches low of the target. Then, for fun, I tried to mimic Bill. Really all that meant was to change my pouch hold from thumb up to thumb down. HOLY CRAP I would have crushed everyone at that tournament! It was magical. I'll leave it at that. I checked with Bill on DIY mods and he said the material will be fine so I'm planning to ad an aiming dimp in the near future.

Picture Time:

View attachment 115577


The Pocket Predator symbol looks great.

View attachment 115585


RangerOTT size comparison to my SPS. Look how big that throat is.

View attachment 115593


Scorpion size comparison to my SPS

View attachment 115601


Look at the curvature of this thing. Make sense why these molds had to be right.

As you can tell I like these slingshots. I like them more that my wife is impressed with them too. She is a hard person to impress, has no interest in slingshots, shoots very little but sees and feels the quality of the design. Even pointing some design features out to me. Weather you were able to partake in a perk for supporting Bill or not, these will be well worth it to purchase for you collection.


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## Genoa Slingshot

Great review! Thank you


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## wquiles

+1

Thanks for the great review and the photos


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## truthornothing

Great review. I have the Milbro also as you know but I shoot it with a choke grip. It locks perfectly in my knuckles and will only fit one way. I will contrast the two in my write up. It is a sweet frame for sure and worth the wait.


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## sharp eye

Thanks for the interesting review. How the molded Scorpion weight feels compared to a slingshot about same size but made from wood?


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## RyanL

sharp eye said:


> Thanks for the interesting review. How the molded Scorpion weight feels compared to a slingshot about same size but made from wood?


It's probably heavier than most wood types.

I conservatively own maybe 20 frames with a mixture of woods, g10, HDPE, metal core, ballistic resin and glass filled nylon materials. So with that knowledge, I'd guess it's the heaviest slingshot I own. However, it's also the largest with the most girth. Because of it's comfort and ergonomics I don't really notice it's weight though.


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## sharp eye

Thanks, I purchased the molded Scorpion and I was concern about the weight, I don't have experience with this material and I though that the frame could be too light.


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## Tag

Great review Ryan


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## truthornothing

sharp eye said:


> Thanks, I purchased the molded Scorpion and I was concern about the weight, I don't have experience with this material and I though that the frame could be too light.


It weighs just over 5 OZ


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## sharp eye

truthornothing said:


> sharp eye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, I purchased the molded Scorpion and I was concern about the weight, I don't have experience with this material and I though that the frame could be too light.
> 
> 
> 
> It weighs just over 5 OZ
Click to expand...

Thank you for the info.


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## Imperial

i think im going to start saving to buy a scorpion. your photos sold me on it.


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## Ibojoe

Nice review. Well written. Well said.


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## ghost0311/8541

looking forward to geting the sere i am hoping soon geting ready to go shoot gar with a bow in a few weeks but would love to do it with the sere.


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## truthornothing

I am going to put some slingbow bands on mine this weekend and see how she shoots arrows. I need to get a bow fishing rig.



ghost0311/8541 said:


> looking forward to geting the sere i am hoping soon geting ready to go shoot gar with a bow in a few weeks but would love to do it with the sere.


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## RyanL

ghost0311/8541 said:


> looking forward to geting the sere i am hoping soon geting ready to go shoot gar with a bow in a few weeks but would love to do it with the sere.


That sounds like fun. If you would have only attended the tournament again this year you could have probably gotten a SERE early. Just pulling your chain.


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## Mr. P

Thanks for the review, Ryan.

I haven't had time to post much of anything about the tournament. Like you, I received a Scorpion (right hand hold) from Bill. He walked over to me and said "Mr.P , that Scorpion on the table over there belongs to you". WOW....how cool of Bill. I have wanted one since I first saw them.

I can certainly vouch for your review. I have really come to enjoy smaller slingshots these days, but the Scorpion is soo comfortable that I will be using it daily. It just feel right in the hand. The material, weight, feel, and performance is spot-on. Bill certainly has invested a lot in his new line-up.

For those waiting on one......you will be very happy!!

Thanks Ryan, and of course Bill.

Mr.P


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## RyanL

Mr. P said:


> Thanks for the review, Ryan.
> 
> I haven't had time to post much of anything about the tournament. Like you, I received a Scorpion (right hand hold) from Bill. He walked over to me and said "Mr.P , that Scorpion on the table over there belongs to you". WOW....how cool of Bill. I have wanted one since I first saw them.
> 
> I can certainly vouch for your review. I have really come to enjoy smaller slingshots these days, but the Scorpion is soo comfortable that I will be using it daily. It just feel right in the hand. The material, weight, feel, and performance is spot-on. Bill certainly has invested a lot in his new line-up.
> 
> For those waiting on one......you will be very happy!!
> 
> Thanks Ryan, and of course Bill.
> 
> Mr.P


I got to watched that happen. His generosity makes you forget that he's trying to sell these and make money.


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## ghost0311/8541

RyanJL said:


> ghost0311/8541 said:
> 
> 
> 
> looking forward to geting the sere i am hoping soon geting ready to go shoot gar with a bow in a few weeks but would love to do it with the sere.
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds like fun. If you would have only attended the tournament again this year you could have probably gotten a SERE early. Just pulling your chain.
Click to expand...

my plans were to be there but as always some thing took its place had to take kids to church camp which is only about 20 min from nathen shop i normal text him if i can stop by but was really busy this year at the camp with the kids and did not have time to do that either.


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## Toolshed

I received the HTS model. LOVE IT!! I like that I can try TTF or OTT with it. I had never shot TTF until I got this sling.

I will say it is a bit large for my mini-hands, but I still shot the whole tourney with it without problems.

Bill's generosity and his family being just plain good darned folk was worth the trip for me.


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## wolfman52

where can i get one of the scropion ss i have looked on his web page and they are not listed can someone point me in the right way please


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## RyanL

wolfman52 said:


> where can i get one of the scropion ss i have looked on his web page and they are not listed can someone point me in the right way please


http://slingshotforum.com/topic/46518-finally-the-next-step-begins/

He ran an Indiegogo page for support but I'm not sure if it's still open.

Otherwise, if you can wait a month or so I'm sure He'll have his website updated to sell them.


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## wquiles

I placed my order just 3-4 days ago, so the Indiegogo site was still taking orders.....


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## Devil'sRival

wolfman52 said:


> where can i get one of the scropion ss i have looked on his web page and they are not listed can someone point me in the right way please


These are from the pocket predator indie gogo. I'm not sure if he's taking anymore pre-orders though. You'll have to check.


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## Devil'sRival

^^I'm on Tapatalk and didn't see the 2nd page and the question answered.


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## inconvenience

Holy crap these look great.

And how wide are those fork tips? It looks like you could just split a strip of TBG in half and band it up on those suckers.


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## RyanL

inconvenience said:


> Holy crap these look great.
> 
> And how wide are those fork tips? It looks like you could just split a strip of TBG in half and band it up on those suckers.


I did a late night shooting session last night but I forgot to grab the measurement. My guess is 1.5" on the scorpion and about 1.25", maybe a tad more, on the rangerOTT. In the pictures of the original post the scorpion had 3/4" tourniquet bands from simple shot, love those things. And the ranger had 7/8"-5/8" TBG. I've been enjoying these things so much those band sets are long gone.


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## truthornothing

Just measured the Scorpion tips its pretty close to 1.5 give or take a 1/32"


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## RyanL

truthornothing said:


> Just measured the Scorpion tips its pretty close to 1.5 give or take a 1/32"


Thanks Truth. When am I going to see your write up on these. For some reason I'm curious about the differences in all the HTS you now have.


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## inconvenience

Nice. Those are some of the largest fork tips in the slingshot world. You can use single layer band sets even for hunting. Especially the .050 PP sells.


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## truthornothing

RyanJL said:


> truthornothing said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just measured the Scorpion tips its pretty close to 1.5 give or take a 1/32"
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Truth. When am I going to see your write up on these. For some reason I'm curious about the differences in all the HTS you now have.
Click to expand...

I have been getting killed at work so haven't had time enough to shoot my frames enough to give a solid review. I will try this weekend if I can keep myself from building another frame instead.


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## RyanL

*UPDATE:*

These frames have been great! I've been exclusively shooting these two and my SPS over the last month or so. The Scorpion has definitely got me back into TTF but the fun of OTT still has my attention.

*The Ranger OTT,*

Originally I was shooting this more. Obviously liking OTT a little better, I gravitated to it. My thoughts and feelings toward this frame haven't changed from my original post. Complaints about this frame? Not much just personal preference stuff that wouldn't pertain to most people. This frame has been through a bit rougher life compared to the Scorpion. I've dropped it multiple times, it's had 3 or 4 fork hits and it continues to be a distraction tool for my kids so they don't wonder down range. They hit it against things and drop it themselves. The material has held up great. Even with all that the frame looks brand new. No scratches, no dents, nothing. *Final thoughts*, it's a great frame. The grip area is a little big if you have medium or small hands. Thumb support grip will work fine but pinch grip has been the ticket for me.

*The Scorpion,*

Even though I originally gravitated to the RangerOTT, the Scorpion is the frame I now grab when I want to shoot. I said I was going to add an aiming dimp but I haven't yet. The frame has been great with out it. There was a little casting material left on the inside of the fork that "might" have cause some pre-mature band failure. That's a big might, it's the only thing I can logically point a finger at. It was easily sanded down and haven't had an issue since. This was a pre-production frame, so I'm unsure if this will be an issue for others. When my wife shoots with me this becomes her slingshot and I shoot either the RangerOTT or my SPS. Paraphrasing her, she says the frame is very comfortable in hand(I agree). Because of this, she's able to comfortably shoot a stronger band set than what she uses on the Ranger Target TAC she used to shoot(I promise, I'm not sponsored by Bill(yet  ) this was just what she liked). She also stated that the frame is very accurate and not very forgiving. She stated this very neutrally but I could sense it was a slight negative to her. I see how that can be a bad thing. However, my argument is that this can help you be a better shooter. With a more forgiving frame, little tweaks to your stance, hold or release may not really affect your point of impact that much. Those types of frames are easy to pick up and enjoy. But a less forgiving frame, in my opinion, gives you more feed back to those little tweaks helping you understand how your movements affect the shot. Effectively making you a better shooter. Again this is all my opinion, that has shown to work for me and while coaching my wife. Moving on. This frame might be too accurate. For me that is. With my standard target set up, I get bored with shooting quickly. Now there is a ton of good that comes from this. Biggest being, I'm trying more difficult shots pushing my abilities further. And while this is a good problem to have. I've noticed my desire to shoot has lessened and I don't like that. Not trying to get too deep into the psychology of it but this is what I think about when I think about this frame. None of that is a complaint or praising of the frame, just my thoughts and experience with it. If I'm concentrating I shoot very well, if I'm being lazy it shows. It took me a little bit to find my grip on this. I know that sounds weird since it's obviously a pinch grip frame but let me explain. I was shooting fine but felt like I could do better, plus after a long shooting session my hand would hurt from over gripping the frame(squeezing it very tightly). So after messing with my grip I did find a positioning that helped with even better consistency and minimized the pain from a tired hand. *Final thoughts*, it's amazing. It's a great TTF frame. Dare I say, the best. Even though it's obviously a pinch grip frame, find your own grip with in that. It's limited on band and attachment options but I'm okay with that. This frame is a dedicated design and it does what it's designed for very very well.

I know this post is overloaded toward the Scorpion but this frame is a game changer. It's changed my approach to shooting, helping it evolve even further, and offers a great take on an iconic frame not everyone(myself included) would've been able to obtain otherwise. Is this the frame for everyone?......NO. Not everyone will like this frame for various reasons. Sadly some won't simply for their view of the maker. Some won't like it because of it's size, that it's only for flat bands TTF, that it's only pinch grip. All that is fine. You have to enjoy what you're shooting. I enjoyed these.


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## Tag

Excellent review RyanL !!!


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## inconvenience

Thanks. My next project was going to be an OTT Ranger and this settled it.

I don't see half of this stuff on his store.


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## inconvenience

Some won't like the Scorpion because they don't like Bill? I'm glad I missed that drama I guess.

I am back to OTT but if I still was heavy into TTF the Scorpion seems like a no brainer. I haven't even held one and I can tell it should be the picture illustrating the word ergonomics.

I wouldn't care if Mao and Stalin designed something if it works.

Does anyone know if he plans on marketing any of his OTT slingshots besides the mini aluminum ones?

I just re-read the part of the review about the scorpion being "too accurate." I guess I'll have to take your word on that. I have times where I almost can't miss a tablespoon, but that's as far as I am right now. The thing holding up my accuraccy is mostly hand instability, not aiming point. I want to try a fully pinch grip slingshot as I imagine it must lend to stability.

Anyway. Thanks for the really great review.


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## RyanL

Some people just rub other people the wrong way. I'll try to leave it at that. p.s. I'm not trying to rub any one the wrong way (no dirty jokes implied)

Hitler designed the VW Bug, a lot of people like those.

Once Bill gets the first production shipments in this next week and things are set up to mold these in the states, I'm assuming he'll update his website for ordering them. That may take a couple months though.

Let me explain the too accurate statement. With my typical target set up(2 1/2" metal lid, 10m away) I'd regularly be on target 70-80% with normal shooting. And it would be a fun goal to really focus and try to get 100% on target. With the Scorpion, I am easily 100% on target. Once I counted 54 consecutive hits before the target had a hole that the ammo just kept passing through. While technically none of this is bad. It just gets boring. There is no challenge to overcome. So I've had to come up with more challenging target options that are still fun. I don't want to focus train all the time when shooting a slingshot. I want it to be fun. So new set ups have been card cuts, bottle shots(shoot the opening of a soda bottle and have the bottle catch the ammo), plastic silverware sideways, plus some other small fun targets(typically stuff that makes a mess when hit).


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## inconvenience

Right on. Well. I'm just getting to tablespoon size targets. When I'm not trying to make a video I hit about 80% when dialed in.

If I ever get to the point you are at with the Scorpion I will work on speed and moving targets.

I don't think I'll ever have the too accurate problem  But it's good to hear that such quality gear exists. And It's not the worst thing that could happen to a shooter


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## pult421

These scorpions will be very affordable. All of them will be. And worth it.


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## RyanL

Guess I need to re-name this to "3 of Bill Hays..."

Just got my perk in the mail and wanted to share my feelings. If you remember from my first post, in return for my participation, I requested the Top Shot. I've wanted the Top Shot for a while but for personal reasons(being a cheapskate) one never came into my possession. Obviously, that's changed. Like getting the SPS, I have to fight my excitement of obtaining something I've wanted since my interest in slingshots began in 2013. These are obviously first thoughts since I've only shot 75 or so shots with it. Holding it feels good maybe a little on the small side for me but I have been shooting the RangerOTT and Scorpion a lot so my hands are used to those at the moment. I tell myself I like smaller frames but I shoot more consistently with bigger ones. However, like my recent post on this topic, (when not competing) being too accurate takes the fun out of it for me.

I tested this frame with a couple different band options. I like a frame's ability to use flats or tubes equally effectively but it makes me want to try all options right away. So, when you're just getting used to a new frame, that may not be a good feature. Have more will power than me and stick with one type/size of band set until you're used to a new frame that has options like that. The reason I say that is because of fork hits. I had one with all four sets I tried and one set guilty of 3 total. My form just couldn't adjust fast enough to the changes in pull weight, length and snappiness causing the fork hits. This may not happen to everyone, it was just my experience. I picked the set I liked and will stick with that for a bit. Thankfully this material holds up. No marks what so ever. Over all a good frame. The orange color I picked looks good and I don't feel the shine is too much. The shine is more than the other two I have but it doesn't bother me.

I only have a couple negatives for the frame. Really there's only one real "issue" the other is just something people may not like. That issue is some surface cracks on the grip area. I think these are formed because of shrinkage during the cooling process. They look to be only ascetic and I feel fine about using the frame. Neither the Scorpion or RangerOTT have these marks.

When shooting tubes with a thumb support grip I got some slap on my thumb. I didn't notice it with a pinch grip but it's definitely there with thumb support. I get this same thing with Simple Shot's Torque. I believe my thumb is positioned too close to the holes. Not a big deal just something to note.

That's it for concerns. Like all frames, it was designed to fit in the hand well and throw a projectile with rubber. It does that well. I can't deny that this will probably become one of, if not the, go to shooter for me. I don't have a definitive factual reason for that other than personal preference. It just hits most all of my preferred check list for a frame and I shoot well with it.

I tried Theraband Black, Latex Tourniquet bands, Single 1842 and pseudo 2040

View attachment 139402


I liked the pseudo 2040 most and for now I'll stick with that

View attachment 139394


Compared to the RangerOTT since they are molded together

View attachment 139410


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## inconvenience

Just saw you added the Topshot. Wow, it really is a small frame.

I finally got my Ranger and I LOVE IT. I am particularly surprised and pleased with the heft and feel of the polycarbonate. I was worried it might feel much more like lighter plastics.


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## inconvenience

The Topshot is now my EDC. I got a Boyscout (Universal Sideshooter) in today and I think I finally understand about the "too accurate" comment. Not that I'll ever be too accurate, but it is shocking to be hitting a tablespoon at 33' within minutes of opening the package.

I also switched to a thumb down grip and I'm hitting dead on. It's also let me add about 6 inches to my draw so far.


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## RyanL

The last few months I took a slingshot break to focus on bow hunting. Now that I'm back to slingshots I'm still grabbing these frames heavily. The Scorpion the most. Shooting my bow must have changed something for me cause I'm not as accurate. Makes it more fun trying to reach a goal but a little frustrating not being where I was. I love the TopShot but I'm still mentally concerned about fork hits even though I haven't had any since the first test I reported about. It really throws my shooting off. My enjoyment of the Scorpion has made me really want to try the BoyScout. Honestly, my enjoyment of the scorpion has gotten back to consistently shooting and trying TTF.


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## Bill Hays

Thanks Ryan... I need to send you a TACHammer, it'll probably be a fit for your Wife's shooting style.


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## RyanL

We'll gladly accept any frame your willing to send. PM me if you need address.


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## truthornothing

TAC hammer is a gem for sure


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## Bill Hays

It will be on it's way Ryan, I've got your address unless you've moved... So don't worry about it!


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## RyanL

Got the TAC Hammer in. Did a quick, first impressions review. http://slingshotforum.com/topic/63410-pocket-predator-polycarb-tac-hammer/

Pretty sure I forgot to thank Bill in it. Guess now's as good a time as any.....Thanks Bill!


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## razmatazberry

Bill Hays makes great stuff..my beady little eyes are focused on the universal Boy Scout. The scorpion I have is dead on and comfy, But I want one for EDC


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## inconvenience

I plan on trying a Tac Hammer soon myself.


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## inconvenience

razmatazberry said:


> Bill Hays makes great stuff..my beady little eyes are focused on the universal Boy Scout. The scorpion I have is dead on and comfy, But I want one for EDC


The BoyScout isn't a pocket carry. It's a pretty large slingshot.

You might wanna get the poly sideshooter if you want an easily pocketed frame.


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## razmatazberry

Well I guess if carry it people are going to ask me. "Is that a slingshot in your Pocket....."


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## namazu

great review i cant wait to get my dirty hands on one of these scorpions . beuatiful bill your make these affordable are going to sell alot of them im ordering mine next payday .


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