# Need for larger ammo?



## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

As a senior citizen novice sling shooter with a bit of arthritis in my hands, I currently shoot rather light bands (3/4" straight cut TBG)and 1/4" ammo somewhere in the vicinity of my catchbox.
Other than developing more power for hunting (which doesn't interest me), what is there to be gained by going to heavier bands and larger ammo?
Bob


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Not really. Its just down to what works for you.


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## AKA Forgotten (Jan 26, 2019)

As mattwalt said. I'll just add as my hand sometimes plays up after dropping a m/cycle years ago, I find 7mm (9/32") or 8mm (5/16") easier to handle. Both of these can be fired successfully with much lighter bands such as 0.45 or 0.5. Always worth trying new things to see what suits you and make it more enjoyable.


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## Projectile Pilot (Jan 11, 2019)

It's easier to pinch larger ammo, if you keep your current band dimensions that's probably about the only difference you'll notice besides the trajectory change at longer distances


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

3/4 inch TBG with 1/4 steel is not efficient. You will probably get better accuracy with 3/8 steel.


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## Ibojoe (Mar 13, 2016)

Yep 3/8” or even 7/16 would work well. Split those bands in half for 1/4”


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## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

After posting this I watched a Nathan video on matching band size to ammo.
Then I went and cut some straight 1/2" TBG bands for my 1/4" ammo.
I really don't notice much velocity difference compared to the 3/4" bands at 33 feet, but the draw is nicer!
And the bands don't rebound as much.
I also made up some straight 3/4" bands to use with the new pouches I ordered along with the Axiom Ocularis frame. I'll try that one out with both 1/4"" and 3/8" ammo with the proper bands.
Not sure if I'm going to like the rounded fork tips on the Ocularis. I don't know where I'll find a good aiming reference point on them. I liked the look of the Scout better, but didn't want to pop $40 for one just yet. I don't have enough experience to be able to appreciate the finer points of the higher end frames yet. By the time I get there I'll probably discover that strapping some bands onto a natural fork works as well as any of the higher tech stuff. Then I'll justify all the money I spent learning what makes a difference as merely stocking my "collection of primitive weapons"! 
Bob


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## Bob E (Mar 23, 2015)

For me I've found ammo smaller than 3/8" starts getting a little fiddly, and larger than 3/4" starts getting too dang big.

1/2" & 5/8" marbles are usually cheap and readily available.


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## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

The 1/4" stuff is pretty easy to handle in those tiny Chinese laser cut pouches that came with the frame I bought on Amazon.
Simple Shot identifies them as being compatible with BB's or 1/4" ammo.
The deal for me about the bigger ammo is that my arthritis, especially in my thumbs makes it VERY uncomfortable to pinch hard enough directly on the ammo to enable me to draw the bigger bands back to the anchor point. I'm envious of those folks who can shoot accurately while drawing light bands back past their ear!
I'll make a stab at the bigger stuff after I get a better grip on the basics shooting 1/4" ammo with 1/2" straight cut bands.
Bob


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## 16YearOldWoodturner (Jun 30, 2019)

Bob E said:


> For me I've found ammo smaller than 3/8" starts getting a little fiddly, and larger than 3/4" starts getting too dang big.
> 1/2" & 5/8" marbles are usually cheap and readily available.


i have found 5/8 marbles from the dollar store good for rabbits within a 30ft range, headshot and it bursts the brain quite well, instant kill.


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

3/8 7/16 I use the same bands with both


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## JASling (Feb 4, 2019)

romanljc said:


> 3/8 7/16 I use the same bands with both


And what would that set-up be if you don't mind me asking?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

I've bee very surprised lately how light a handset is needed for 1/4" - I'm using 1632 tubes and finding what is my BB set (short pseudo) actually flings them very well. Suggests a 8-6mm TBG taper would work great...

Do consider getting tubes - they obviously take a lot of the hassle out of cutting very small handsets. And are therefore much more consistent.

I use the 3 grooves in the outer ring of the Ocularis system to align my bands


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## Pebble Shooter (Mar 29, 2014)

From my personal experience:

- The ammo, pouch, and bands used should all be calibrated as closely as possible i.e. small ammo, small pouch, lighter tapered band sets vs. large ammo, large pouch, and heavier tapered band sets.

- The pouch size should be roughly 3-4 times the length of the spherical projectile diameter, and roughly 1.5 times the width of the spherical projectile being used. This reduces both pouch weight and drag factors to obtain higher projectile velocities and energy output, while ensuring that the ammo is securely seated in the pouch, and that it can be held securely between the front section of the thumb and the second joint of the index finger prior to the release. Small ammo in large pouches tends to move around: beware of fork hit potential.

- Smaller ammo allows for bands with a lighter draw weights, which makes for more accurate shooting during prolonged shooting sessions (depending on correct holding and release techniques);

- Smaller ammo will have a flatter trajectory, as opposed to larger and heavier ammo at typical slingshot shooting distances (10 to 15 yards, or less);

- Steel ammo of a given size will have a flatter trajectory than lead ammo of the same size (metal density and relative weight).

- The elasticity of rubber has its limitations in terms of its maximum retraction speed, attainable projectile velocities, and related output energy, which in turn depends on band thickness, lengths, and widths.

- Tapering increases projectile velocity to a point, but ultimately stronger bands with higher draw weights and heavier ammo are the only way to increase the energy output of slingshots in absolute terms.

- Larger ammo is suitable when destructive power at closer ranges is called for (think "magnum"), and/or for hunting to ensure a humane kill at typical slingshot hunting distances.

Personally, I have taken to 8 to 9 mm ammo for my backyard target shooting at 10 yards using Chinese-made slingshots, as the performance ratios based on the above criteria are what best suits my needs: hunting is with slingshots is prohibited in Switzerland. That said, I do have a couple of homemade bent 8 mm thick stainless steel rod frames for strong flat bands to shoot heavier steel ammo in the 12 to 16 mm size.

Heavier ammo implies higher draw weights by definition to obtain a relatively flat projectile trajectory, albeit that one can achieve a good personal compromise between ammo weight and band tapering to reduce draw weight as far as possible. It s really a case of testing various combinations to see what best suits your needs.

Larger ammo is generally easier to hold inside the pouch. The key question is finding a suitable compromise between having a flat trajectory and sufficient "oomph" at the intended shooting distance, while nevertheless having a band set (or tubes) that do not transform shooting sessions into a work-out and painful fingers at the end of the whole process.

Least but not last, the design of the slingshot in ergonomic terms also plays a major role in the way draw weight is felt in the slingshot holding hand: the frame being used needs to be adapted for stronger bands by distributing the pressure generated by higher draw weights in the hand in a way that minimizes potential hand and finger pain. Using pouch material that is thick enough and which does not slip in the fingers, is essential too.

My 2 cents worth... B)


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## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

On tapering the bands: it seems that by reducing the width of the band for some of its length, you are able to get a longer draw with less perceived effort than if the band was full width for its entire length.
As many have noted, while there seems to be some velocity gain, you are also reducing the lifespan of the band by over-stretching the tapered part.
At my current level of understanding (novice), the trade off is not sufficiently positive to warrant the extra effort in cutting tapered bands, along with having to replace them more often.
I am finding the draw light enough with my straight cut 1/2" bands to have a good time with the 1/4" ammo.
One day if I'm bored, I might make up a 3/8" straight cut band set just to see if I can tell the difference.
Bob


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## Blue Raja (Feb 10, 2016)

Bmwbob said:


> As a senior citizen novice sling shooter with a bit of arthritis in my hands, I currently shoot rather light bands (3/4" straight cut TBG)and 1/4" ammo somewhere in the vicinity of my catchbox.
> Other than developing more power for hunting (which doesn't interest me), what is there to be gained by going to heavier bands and larger ammo?
> Bob


Greetings and welcome from a fellow senior novice. While I do not suffer from arthritis, I was deconditioned and had weak grip strength when I started. My shooting is slowly improving. Walking, stretching, squeezing hand grip exercise devices, focusing on my form and follow through are as important as having the right set-up. At my stage of development, I look for slingshots that are comfortable to grip and draw, and then match my ammo to the set up. I shoot more accurately with larger ammo, 3/8" steel, 1/2" and 5/8" marbles work best for me.

Lots of good information here on the physics of slingshots.

Looking forward to reading about your progress.


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## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

Greetings, Sahib!
Getting into "senior" status without arthritis is indeed a blessing!
No way around it. Bigger ammo= heavier bands= higher draw force = more pinch required on ammo=no fun for this guy! :-(
I know, by using lighter, longer bands you can draw back past your ear and get good velocity with bigger ammo, but that's a more advanced technique that I'm not ready for as yet.
We each have our own limitations be they physical, Time, financial, etc. Somehow we still seem to find a way to have a good time in spite of them!
Bob


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## AKA Forgotten (Jan 26, 2019)

Only just occured to me that unless you're after target accuracy, give clay balls a try. Usually come in at around 10mm give or take a tad, about the same weight as your 6mm and still fun to shoot.


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## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

Thanks, AKA!
Btw, as you can see, you're NOT really forgotten!
Bob (USAF, 1970-74)


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## AKA Forgotten (Jan 26, 2019)

I was out shooting them today, make a nice mess of a soft drinks can ????
Thank you kind sir
Tony (WMP '83-87) wife was in the RAF but won't mention dates ????


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## Blue Raja (Feb 10, 2016)

Sahib Bob - try clay -lighter than steel and infinitely customizable. Saunders Slingshot just came out with "clod poppers" 44 cal so easy to grip, but still light so no need for heavier bands.

Also consider paintballs.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Bmwbob said:


> On tapering the bands: it seems that by reducing the width of the band for some of its length, you are able to get a longer draw with less perceived effort than if the band was full width for its entire length.
> As many have noted, while there seems to be some velocity gain, you are also reducing the lifespan of the band by over-stretching the tapered part.
> At my current level of understanding (novice), the trade off is not sufficiently positive to warrant the extra effort in cutting tapered bands, along with having to replace them more often.
> I am finding the draw light enough with my straight cut 1/2" bands to have a good time with the 1/4" ammo.
> ...


Tapering the bands has a two-fold purpose. First, as you said, it's to reduce draw weight, without compromising speed. Second, and most important, is to guide the failure point of the bands towards the pouch, so have some safety when bands break. With straight cuts, there is no telling where a band will break, and it's very probable that it'll break towards the fork end, and then we get....a nice slap ????


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## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

Skropi,
That and the possibility of ricochets off the shed in back of my catch box is the reason I always wear eye protection when shooting.
I got a pretty firm hand slap one time when shooting 1/4"" with the bigger bands. I wouldn't want that in my face!
Bob


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## bigdh2000 (Feb 9, 2015)

In the past three years, bands for slingshots have dramatically improved. Noah Ray out of Georgia can provide you with a ton of advice. Only problem is that you have to find him outside the forums. Simple Shot has a wide range of options as well. Ray Urban has had to scale way back on his band strength himself. I believe he uses this stuff called Pink Siemeke that sends his 1/4" and 3/8" absolutely zinging downrange with very little draw weight.

Moral of the story is that you can use very little draw weight with a light pouch very effectively these days. Feel free to private message me if you cannot find some of these folks for additional information.


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## AKA Forgotten (Jan 26, 2019)

The Pink Sumeike is their 0.45, same as the current world champion used


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## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

Hmmm.... just my luck!
I did enough online reading on the slingshot thing to get the impression that TBG was THE stuff to get for bands.
Now it's Pink Slime-icky?
Think I'll use up the remaining 17 feet of the TBG I bought before I hit the plastic for THIS week's "hot stuff"! 
Chances are, at my (novice) skill level I probably wouldn't notice the difference with the pink stuff anyway.
Bob


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## AKA Forgotten (Jan 26, 2019)

Couldn't bring myself to have pink bands, I went for the zombie green 0.5 lol


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Bmwbob said:


> Hmmm.... just my luck!
> I did enough online reading on the slingshot thing to get the impression that TBG was THE stuff to get for bands.
> Now it's Pink Slime-icky?
> Think I'll use up the remaining 17 feet of the TBG I bought before I hit the plastic for THIS week's "hot stuff"!
> ...


There's absolutely nothing wrong with TBG, don't worry too much about it. But if you are going for pure speed, then the thinner the elastic, the better. With the old pink sumeike, which is actually 0.37 thickness, I was shooting 9.5mm steel faster than with any other setup. It does have less longevity of course, as the faster the bands, the less life they have.


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## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

You know, I still have a quantity of the very thin orange exercise band I used on my first bands.
Two thicknesses of that material (liberally doused with baby powder) always seemed to move ammo quite briskly. And, the draw weight was quite light.
Perhaps that might be my next avenue of inquiry!
Bob


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

No need to douse the bands with baby powder. It doesn't really add anything. It could provide some lubrication at the pouch attachment points, but with a constrictor knot, you don't really have any friction when tying the knot.


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## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

On the baby powder thing: with that double band set, before powdering, I couldn't tell you WHERE the shot was going. I was missing a good sized catch box from 15 feet away, with shots being completely unpredictable. I was beating myself up looking for an unclean release, doing jumping jacks before releasing, twirling the [email protected] like a nation, or whatever. Nothing seemed to help.
I got reading some about the virtues of powdering, and considered all the slapping together the bands must do after release.
Bottom line: I powdered and changed NOTHING else and my accuracy ( if you can call my present level of shooting "accuracy") improved more than I can tell you.
I suppose the effect wouldn't be as dramatic with only one band on each side of the pouch, but, as others have said, if you've got something that works for YOU, go with it.
And so I'm powdering band sets AFTER both ends of the band are secured.
Bob


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## Blue Raja (Feb 10, 2016)

Bmwbob said:


> Hmmm.... just my luck!
> I did enough online reading on the slingshot thing to get the impression that TBG was THE stuff to get for bands.
> Now it's Pink Slime-icky?
> Think I'll use up the remaining 17 feet of the TBG I bought before I hit the plastic for THIS week's "hot stuff"!
> ...


My observation - at the novice level (where I presently reside) the variations in different band material are less important that practice. Find a band set that feels good and fire away. The more practice you get, the better.


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## Projectile Pilot (Jan 11, 2019)

AKA Forgotten said:


> Couldn't bring myself to have pink bands, I went for the zombie green 0.5 lol


If anyone thinks they're getting orange with the 0.7 keep in mind it looks like the color of Bubble Tape!


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## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

Received my new Axiom Ocularis today. , It is intended to be shot thumb-supported. This is different from my Chinese OTT which a strictly pinch grip model.
I wrapped the grip with some para cord, put my 1/2" bands on the Axiom and shot it. It took me a few shots to figure out what to use as a reference point on the frame, but then the accuracy jumped up to as good as and better than I was experiencing with my pinch gripper.
After a bit, my left (also arthritic) thumb began to complain, so I switched to pinch griping it, though it's not quite as well set up for that.
Next, I put 3/4" bands on the "pinch pouch" and started shooting 3/8" ammo. The jury is still out on the pinch pouch. It takes longer to load, and it's easy to drop the ammo when you're begging your draw.
I also tried the archery release with the pinch pouch. It works (sort of), but caused my aim point to go VERY high, so I took it off.
I think I have the 3/4" bands a little short as the effort started to max out a bit before I got to full draw. I'll make up another set 1.5" longer, and trim them back if needed.
I switched back to the 1/2" bands and 1/4" ammo. Much nicer!
I "love/hate" this Axiom frame for my hand condition, but the Ocularis setup really makes band swapping a breeze. I use the eraser end of a pencil to push the ball bearings down into the plug to tighten things up and that works fine. I now wish I had ordered the Torq model instead, but I guess that can come later.
I'm wondering if the round profile of the fork tops on the Axiom is going to give me a good enough reference point for shooting smaller spinners when I'm at that stage. Time will tell!
Bob


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## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

For the record: I HATE the darned spell check that turns gripping into griping, and beginning into begging!!!
Bob


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## bigdh2000 (Feb 9, 2015)

Bmwbob said:


> Received my new Axiom Ocularis today. , It is intended to be shot thumb-supported. This is different from my Chinese OTT which a strictly pinch grip model.
> I wrapped the grip with some para cord, put my 1/2" bands on the Axiom and shot it. It took me a few shots to figure out what to use as a reference point on the frame, but then the accuracy jumped up to as good as and better than I was experiencing with my pinch gripper.
> After a bit, my left (also arthritic) thumb began to complain, so I switched to pinch griping it, though it's not quite as well set up for that.
> Next, I put 3/4" bands on the "pinch pouch" and started shooting 3/8" ammo. The jury is still out on the pinch pouch. It takes longer to load, and it's easy to drop the ammo when you're begging your draw.
> ...


Most of the Chinese frames can also be braced, however, they are made for a lot smaller hand. I pinch grip a lot of frames given hand size. The best advice I can give you is try a lot of different frames until you find what works for you. Many will be happy to trade or buy the frames you no longer care for once you start finding a style you like.


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## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

Hi, Dan!
I'm thinking that I might try Nathan's "Hammer XT" for use with the bigger ammo and bands, IF I decide that I even want to do that at all. Having a wrist braced setup would take care of not having the frame square and tensioning one band more than another. I'll test the theory by putting some 3/4" flat bands on one of my remaining wire frames frames.
Then too, I'm thinking of making my own frame if I can't find exactly what I like pre-built. I looked at some of the templates available and am itching to give that a try.
Bob


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## bigdh2000 (Feb 9, 2015)

Bmwbob said:


> Hi, Dan!
> I'm thinking that I might try Nathan's "Hammer XT" for use with the bigger ammo and bands, IF I decide that I even want to do that at all. Having a wrist braced setup would take care of not having the frame square and tensioning one band more than another. I'll test the theory by putting some 3/4" flat bands on one of my remaining wire frames frames.
> Then too, I'm thinking of making my own frame if I can't find exactly what I like pre-built. I looked at some of the templates available and am itching to give that a try.
> Bob


Ask Grandpa Pete to show you his thumb-less shooter. No thumb required on the holding hand.


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## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

Hmmm.......haven't met anyone by that monicker as yet.
Could I search for Grandpa Pete on this forum?


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## AKA Forgotten (Jan 26, 2019)

Indeed you can


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## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

Hmmm.... I tried searching for Grandpa Pete and "thumbless shooter". 
No joy either way.
Bob


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## Projectile Pilot (Jan 11, 2019)

Bmwbob said:


> Having a wrist braced setup would take care of not having the frame square and tensioning one band more than another.


After watching a friend draw back one of my rockets I checked my own form in the mirror and sure enough the lower band was being stretched farther because when holding the top fork at about eye level, the arm slants up since it pivots from a lower point and the brace follows the arm. We both shoot with the handle held horizontal so maybe another style of hold wouldn't do that but I ended up compensating by dropping the anchor point way down


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## bigdh2000 (Feb 9, 2015)

Bmwbob said:


> Hmmm.... I tried searching for Grandpa Pete and "thumbless shooter".
> No joy either way.
> Bob


https://slingshotforum.com/user/7478-grandpa-pete/


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## bigdh2000 (Feb 9, 2015)

Bmwbob said:


> Hmmm.... I tried searching for Grandpa Pete and "thumbless shooter".
> No joy either way.
> Bob


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## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

Dan,
Thanks for those links!
I looked at that thumbless shooter and the only image that come to mind is "toilet paper roll holder"! 
It's quite a feat of engineering and it will be interesting to see it in action if they make some video of that.

I'm not at the point of SO much pain in my holding hand that I can't manage a conventional frame at all. It's just if I'm shooting the Axiom thumb braced instead of pinched, that gets a bit tender after a while.
So if I'm going out for a good session, I just slam down 1000 mg of ibuprofen. That keeps the wolves from the door long enough for me to stop shooting because my support arm is getting shaky.

After watching the video of that young boy on some foreign equivalent of "America's Got Talent' shooting clay balls into the open end of a Coke bottle using a natural fork shooter I realize that the frame is not so much a factor when the one holding it knows what they're doing.

An R/C club friend of mine will be planing down some rough cut maple lumber this week and will give me some of it to use for my frame building experiments. I'll make the prototype out of pine first to avoid wasting the good stuff. My goal is to come up with something that fits my hand well and also offers me an easily defined reference point for aiming. On the Axiom Ocularis, I'm using the edge of one of the rounded notches on the perimeter of the fork top and that's getting me close. Not enough to switch from paper targets to a small spinner yet however.

I'm beginning to think that the good shooters I see on YouTube must gradually wean themselves from sharply focusing on a highly defined reference point and develop an almost unimaginable sort of instinct for aiming at those incredibly small and distant targets.
That tends to make me believe that absent some special God-given talent, the rest of us must rise to our own individual level of incompetence through carefully observing the wisdom handed down from those who went before us and practicing until muscle memory makes it unnecessary to pause before each shot and repeat the mantra "pinch on ammo, pouch straight, anchor point, frame square, don't hold too long" etc.
I'm not discouraged by my lack of immediate Star-quality results. I'm seeing some improvement each time out and enjoying the trip!
Bob


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## Bmwbob (Jun 26, 2019)

Projectile Pilot said:


> Bmwbob said:
> 
> 
> > Having a wrist braced setup would take care of not having the frame square and tensioning one band more than another.
> ...


P.P.,
I'm still at the early stages of shooting paper targets so I can see where my shots are going. I am shooting sidearm/ "gangster" style.
If I see shots going consistently low or high, i check how square I am holding the frame and adjust that. Then I have to look for some OTHER reason why I can't hit anything! 
Bob


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