# STO - 3d Hays Harpy



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

When I took the plunge and restart this sport - I spent a lot of time trawling the internet and drooling over some stunning frames. One of these was Bill Hays' Harpy (a certain lucky SSF member actually owns this) - its a stunning piece. Looks all pointy and cool. So when STO (AKA Silent Thunder Ordinance ) Said they'd send me one of their 3D printed frames and a Weaver to put through the wringer I was pretty darn pleased. And they just arrived.

So right off the bat - these are lightweight frames. Thanks to the hollow honeycombed type construction. I was a little concerned about the grip with my large hands - but it fits just fine - in fact it locks up extremely well. The material of the one I received looks to be a bronze, and really does look amazing, and warm to the touch. The layered-ness is reminiscent of wood or something off the set of The 5th Element, it also aids in the grip). And it really does look awesome in real life. The plastic itself feels like polycarbonate - quite firm. No doubt its strong enough to handle heavier bandsets. My daughter says its 'very pretty'.

STO drilled me some 1/8" holes in the band grooves and I 'banded' up for 1632 pseudo tubes for use with 4.5mm BB's... things got interesting really really quickly... Who-ever says that a frame has nothing to do with accuracy may need to eat their hats (a frame like this sure does make it easier). Thinks to the lock-up, wide throat and clean sight window I was easily hitting my sub 4" target at 25m (with BB's). It handles like a scalpel - which is how I hoped it would. For plain all-out target shooting its as, if not my most accurate frame as I have (if not almost boring so - if it weren't for the continual repetitive pings off the target).

Bad points - lack of weight, though thanks to its lock up is really a non-issue. A small groove in the post maybe nice for aiming for some people (not that I had an issue).

For the price STO is selling these off his site I recon its an absolute deal at $35 - STO sells through the forum (but be sure to visit www.silentthunderordnance.com). He also has been playing with some other elements and is tuning out some very cool gear (like his re-handled scalpel). Worth noting the International shipping was done very efficiently as well.

I'd highly remind this frame - and STO as a vendor, both as a package are top notch (Thank you!). I'm keen to see what else he cooks up.


----------



## KawKan (May 11, 2013)

Nice review, Matt.

Can you post a photo of your test model?

I suspect it looks more like this -

http://slingshotforum.com/uploads/monthly_04_2018/post-36241-0-85074500-1522791314_thumb.jpg

I'd love to see the honeycomb texture.


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Hi KawKan - its the one in the photo actually. The only change is he added the 3mm holes before sending over.

The honeycomb you can't see on the Harpy - STO sent a Weaver as well in Trans Blue - that one shows the honeycomb well (I'll do a review of that one in a week or two).

I'm shooting it with DK 1632's and a Chinese microfibre pouch


----------



## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Great review Matt and so true about this frame being an accurate and consistent shooter. The way it locks into the hand makes certain your grip is exactly the same with every shot. No lanyard hole on this model. You can actually lock it in then open your fingers and the frame stays put. Yes, the frame does or can make a difference. For some of us anyway. Nice to read someone else agreeing with that and agreeing as well that the Harpy is one of those frames that insures accuracy. At least to the best of the shooter's ability.

Mine is Nocturnal Blue. I bought one of the first Harpy's STO posted and once again it is light as Matt points out. So light you can't feel the weight in your hand at all. I mentioned in my Harpy review that I think the bands and pouch outweigh the frame itself.


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

I've used the same exact bandset on a few frames. Torque / My Axtar experimental / DK Micro Luck rings / DK X6 POM / Little olive natty / Tibetan Antelope / Lil Plinker board cut / Seljan Slant... probably a few others. Torque shoots very well - the Axtar and the Natty are surprisingly accurate. However this setup creams the lot of them with no settling in period. Only got it in a few hours ago and its just on target. No adjustment period or getting the hang of it just point and shoot and hit - over and over and over again.

I think that in fairness you can shoot well with any frame with enough practice - but there are some that just make it easier. This one is one of those. The original design makes it consistent (thanks to grip etc.) and the width between the forks helps alignment for accuracy. The rest is simply shooter consistency.


----------



## Covert5 (Feb 7, 2018)

Awesome review Matt,

That is an awesome looking Harpy! How did you anchor down the tubes on the other side? Can't see it.


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

I used sections of paracord in the case (matchstick style) - though I usually use sections of tube. I like this attachment style a lot. Its a simple mod (3.5-4mm hole drilled centre) which allows looped tubes to work on most slotted wrap and tuck frames.

Here is the same thing on my Wasp Deltawing (this was first time I used this approach)


----------



## Covert5 (Feb 7, 2018)

Thanks Matt! I gotta try that! Looking forward to your review of the weaver too!

Any chance we can see a demo of that Harpy?


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

I wish I could. I use my phone for dealing with Chinese suppliers on WhatsApp and WeChat so its so full taking photos is a challenge 99% of the time. I'll see if I can set up a target and document real-world shooting results. I'm no championship shooter - but it would be an easy experiment to do a shoot-off between a few of the frames I mentioned at my skill level - think the results would vary enough to see a distinct difference. I should also be reunited with the Axtar in the next few weeks which would be awesome as its the next best shooter to this followed by the Torque and Slant. The natty I mentioned also used the same attachment method and is also very accurate...


----------



## Covert5 (Feb 7, 2018)

Sounds great! Looking forward to it, thanks Matt!


----------



## STO (Mar 2, 2018)

Thanks for the review Matt!

You jumped the gun a little bit on Silent Thunder Ordnance. I'll post a thread on the whole topic later, but here is the skinny:

My best friend and I started a company called Silent Thunder Ordnance a while back. That is where access to high end 3D printers, CNC machines, etc came from. People liked and wanted my slingshots, so I started selling them. Eventually Ben took notice and we talked about what to do. The answer was add it to the website, and expand capabilities. Basically, so long as people want them, we're happy to make slingshots. No idea where things are going beyond that. 

https://www.silentthunderordnance.com/secret-slingshot-menu

That is the link to the secret slingshot menu on the website. It is an un-linked page, that is to say there is no link to it anywhere on the website, you have to go to it directly. I have a couple other slingshots I was working on I wanted to add before announcing this, but since we're here, there it is.  I updated the link in my sig to lead to it as well.



KawKan said:


> Nice review, Matt.
> 
> Can you post a photo of your test model?
> 
> ...


Matt said it, the honeycomb is internal and I'd need to print in a translucent filament for it to be visible. When that is done, it looks like this:


----------



## Kalevala (Jul 20, 2014)

I must stop reading this forum, now I want one :thumbsup:


----------



## Covert5 (Feb 7, 2018)

STO,

Awesome website bro, the Weaver and the Nit look very fun to shoot!


----------



## KawKan (May 11, 2013)

mattwalt said:


> Hi KawKan - its the one in the photo actually. The only change is he added the 3mm holes before sending over.
> 
> The honeycomb you can't see on the Harpy - STO sent a Weaver as well in Trans Blue - that one shows the honeycomb well (I'll do a review of that one in a week or two).
> 
> ...


Wow! The wood-like appearance threw me!

Very nice.


----------



## STO (Mar 2, 2018)

KawKan said:


> mattwalt said:
> 
> 
> > Hi KawKan - its the one in the photo actually. The only change is he added the 3mm holes before sending over.
> ...


It doesn't come out well in photography, the graphite sheen just doesn't really pop, but that is weathered graphite over gold.


----------



## rosco (Jan 10, 2012)

Kalevala said:


> I must stop reading this forum, now I want one :thumbsup:


Worse yet for me. Can't legally import any frames at all in this benighted land. Burns me up.

I'm just about to get a bb set up going here so thanks for the heads up Matt. Enjoyed the review.


----------



## Bama Murdock (May 12, 2018)

I've been looking at those for a while now. Seriously, it may be the closest you get to a Bill Hays original. One of those is definitely in my next 5 to buy.


----------



## Buckskin Dave (Apr 4, 2018)

Covert5 said:


> Sounds great! Looking forward to it, thanks Matt!


 :yeahthat:

Good review Matt. Awesome looking slingshots and the price is certainly fair.


----------



## SlingNerd (Mar 15, 2017)

Functional art, plain and simple.

The Weaver has me bewitched..


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

SN - I'm very keen to get some time with the Weaver - feels awesome in the hand. I'll post a review on that one as soon as I can - it needs some play time. Its had a lot of thought and development put into it - and I suspect its way more capable that it appears...


----------



## Tag (Jun 11, 2014)

Great review I would like to thank you Matt for all you do to keep the Forum growing. Also a huge thank you to am ambassador of slingshots, the one and only (thank goodness❤) BeanFlip


----------



## pirateking (Jul 3, 2017)

Thanks. I got one. Yeah.!


----------



## Allst (May 12, 2018)

Sorry to say I have had a bad experience with STO. Made an order three weeks ago and the package was sent to the wrong address. Since that just promises that I will get it at sometime. Just want a refund. But hey its entirely my fault for not sticking with established vendors like Pocket Predator and Tripwire.


----------



## Allst (May 12, 2018)

Sorry to say I have had a bad experience with STO. Made an order three weeks ago and the package was sent to the wrong address. Since that just promises that I will get it at sometime. Just want a refund. But hey its entirely my fault for not sticking to established vendors like Pocket Predator.


----------



## STO (Mar 2, 2018)

So once again, I would just like to say, I'm sorry your order hasn't arrived in a timely fashion. Believe it or not, I really really REALLY want everyone's order to show up, intact, and in a timely fashion. When an order shows up late, damaged, etc everyone loses. I'm new to selling slingshots on this forum, I've got years of experience selling (and shipping) things online.

I did explain to you (Allst) via email what happened, but for the benefit of anyone reading this I would like to explain what actually happened with this order without divulging anything confidential. I'd love to share the tracking number so people don't have to just take my word for all this. I do respect Allst's privacy though, even though the order is just going to a forwarder, so I've sent him a message asking if he'd allow me to share the tracking info with all of you.

The order itself was placed June 23rd (a Saturday). For things like slingshots, I quote (and it is on the website's policy's page) a week to manufacture them. This is intentionally generous, I'd rather promise a week and take two days then promise two days and take a week. The order itself was shipped June 26th, that Tuesday.

Here is where things get messy. I don't hand-write labels on orders, I use a shipping software that works with USPS (the carrier). This offers more advantages than simply saving time, because it checks every address against the USPS database of every address in the United States and a couple other countries as well. This is EXTREMELY useful. I don't know how many times it has saved an order from being lost, because it really does know things. For example, if you live in an apartment and forget to include the unit number, it knows you need a unit number and will throw an error saying essentially "get this person's unit number, or the package isn't deliverable." So what happened here? The address provided on the order was marked invalid, but was automatically repaired by changing only the zip code. (another fairly common thing as zip codes change, people mistype, etc.) According to Google both of these addresses check out and go to the same location. *shrug* (it is a freight forwarder, as you'll note Allst marks his profile location as outside the United States)

So the order goes out and gets all the way to "out for delivery" (on June 30th) before USPS marks it undeliverable as addressed and reroutes it to try and find its intended destination. :banghead: On July 2nd Allst gets in touch with me and I start an inquiry with the carrier, and reassure him that one way or another I'll get him the slingshot he ordered, and I'm very sorry for the mixup. Of course as anyone who has ever dealt with USPS, or bureaucracy in general, knows these inquiries go at the speed of smell.

Meanwhile though the order keeps moving, because USPS usually does find and deliver "incorrectly" addressed orders, and it is still updating and moving through USPS' system, but when they fail they just return it to me.

So Allst says he doesn't want the slingshot anymore and would like a refund. That is perfectly fine. Everything I ship, I ship insured and it is company policy that domestic orders are considered lost in four weeks. The insurance kicks in after 4 weeks on domestic orders (for loss) too (what a coincidence eh?), at which time I'm happy to refund the order. In the meantime though, I've seen this type of thing before (undeliverable addresses that is, this specific flustercluck of one of repairing an address to something the database marks as shippable but USPS thinks isn't and google is fine with both is a new one to me) and there is actually a not-small probability that the order will simply be delivered.

So here we are. The package is in limbo, Allst is out of patience, I'm still trying to figure out what happened and why. :slap: Here is what really bakes my noodle on the whole situation though: the order was marked as "out for delivery" on June 30th (see attached image. Nothing is confidental in there because they're all the "wrong" zip codes and they only go back to a freight forwarder anyway, not a personal address). How? The street and everything were unchanged, just the zip code was changed. Carriers know their routes extremely well, at the local distribution level they don't pick up orders and take them out for delivery on unknown "mystery" streets that aren't part of their routes. My best guess is that the address is further up the same street, so the number is too high for that zip code and it is just a zip code or two over. Enough that it is outside the carrier's route and the carrier just marked it as an error and shuffled it back through the system to another distribution center so it can go to the correct local office? IDK man. I'm screaming into the void (at USPS, same thing) and here we are. This is why I still think it'll be delivered though.

And that is the whole long messy story in all its glorious detail. I'll update as soon as Allst gets back to me about sharing that tracking number so nobody has to just take my word for it.


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Yeah - I'm surprised by this. I found dealing with STO to be pretty easy. Portugal has a known track record for being extremely difficult to post to - how the apartments work / packages going missing / Customs and and... About half my eBay purchases arrive - gifts have been stuck in customs for months - been inquisitioned - then charged full value VAT for (the quoted insurance value and shipping costs).

His package arrived extremely quickly and without any drama at all.

I'd actually recommend him purely on his shipping alone, which seems to be awesome.


----------



## hoggy (Apr 17, 2017)

dang it, now i want one.


----------



## hoggy (Apr 17, 2017)

and built to MY hand too, dang it.


----------



## Allst (May 12, 2018)

I was attracted by the fact that the frame is made to measure and it looks gorgeous.

Not to prolong this but I should have gotten precise time lines for replacement or refund at the very beginning rather than after I got frustrated with the wait. C'est la vie no stress.


----------



## STO (Mar 2, 2018)

No worries mate. Like I said in the email, I'll get you either your slingshot or your money back if it kills me. This is because, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter whose fault it is something went wrong, it is my responsibility to make sure you get your order. If there is one thing in this whole process though which most often makes me lose sleep, it is shipping because most customers don't really understand it (why should they?) and it is more or less completely beyond my control.



mattwalt said:


> Yeah - I'm surprised by this. I found dealing with STO to be pretty easy. Portugal has a known track record for being extremely difficult to post to - how the apartments work / packages going missing / Customs and and... About half my eBay purchases arrive - gifts have been stuck in customs for months - been inquisitioned - then charged full value VAT for (the quoted insurance value and shipping costs).
> 
> His package arrived extremely quickly and without any drama at all.
> 
> I'd actually recommend him purely on his shipping alone, which seems to be awesome.


Yeah Portugal is a country that often worries me, they were never great, but layering the EU customs and import bureaucracy on top of things didn't help. Sometimes they hold things for over a month with no reason or notice or anything, it is just "gone" and then POOF it pops up and is delivered in a brisk 2 months. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: Russia is a place where I try to be very up front about the fact that I can't guarantee delivery at all. Insurance often refuses to cover these locations as well. Before Russia used to be better about ten years ago (roughly) but as of about two years ago things were so bad you had about a 1 in 3 chance of the package showing up in 6 weeks. I don't know if it is an anti-american thing because of the Ukraine debacle or an economic thing or if the Kremlin is just losing its grip?

Like I said, shipping is one of those things that just makes me lose sleep. We need teleportation devices, I'll just pop by to your house, hand you the slingshot, and leave.



hoggy said:


> and built to MY hand too, dang it.


 Yup. I can't be as cheap as injection moulding, so at least I can be more adaptable.


----------



## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Seems like we've come so far in our advancements with such things as 3D printing that someone could figure out how to just fax packages to their destination. I know, it is an absurd idea but it might start with something as simple as making the necessary computer connections and instead of the postal service delivering the package it is 3D printed out on the receiving end. Go ahead and laugh, if we don't destroy this wicked world before it happens it is a definite possibility.


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

In fact - great Point JR. The local stationery shop in Portugal had 3d facilities. STO could actually do just that. However this would mean that he'd loose control of business as they'd have his file to reproduce easily... If they could make so its a one-off print only... but also quality control would be an issue...

As mentioned - think his shipping system is great. And he's always been quick to offer refunds/replacements if issues do arise.


----------



## MakoPat (Mar 12, 2018)

MattWalt and STO ( and of course, Bill Hayes) are so awesome! This forum is through and through goodness and light and beauty... and FUN as mud between my toes!

My weaver is always with me (midnight blue). 1st ott I ever shot. And a Hayes designed and STO made/mod is going to be mine someday.

I love the creative and collaborative minds here. The sharing... giving due respect and credit.

It just does not happen enough... 
Slinger for life!

Hey, STO is not paying or all that legal-speak but his work is great... and the material is light.

PS- y'all are welcome 'round fire any time. Come through TN give me a shout.


----------



## MakoPat (Mar 12, 2018)

Jolly Roger said:


> Seems like we've come so far in our advancements with such things as 3D printing that someone could figure out how to just fax packages to their destination. I know, it is an absurd idea but it might start with something as simple as making the necessary computer connections and instead of the postal service delivering the package it is 3D printed out on the receiving end. Go ahead and laugh, if we don't destroy this wicked world before it happens it is a definite possibility.


Jolly, I believe it will, too. No joke... 3d printing is amazing and has already saved lives. I am as old school as a hammer, but I like these machines.


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

MakoPat said:


> Jolly Roger said:
> 
> 
> > Seems like we've come so far in our advancements with such things as 3D printing that someone could figure out how to just fax packages to their destination. I know, it is an absurd idea but it might start with something as simple as making the necessary computer connections and instead of the postal service delivering the package it is 3D printed out on the receiving end. Go ahead and laugh, if we don't destroy this wicked world before it happens it is a definite possibility.
> ...


Its already very doable. As mentioned - Staples has the capability to receive and print files to order via email (like doing regular prints). There was a system a while ago that was linked too Fedex where you printed your files as if it were to a desktop printer - though the files went to a proper printing house and were delivered by hand in 3 days... So the technology exists and functions.

The only issue is rights related. By sending files they are open to 'theft' and you're not guaranteed on the final product quality.. unless its proven. So I'd stick to STO's in-house as he has the control and eye for detail to ensure peace of mind.


----------



## STO (Mar 2, 2018)

JR you imagined the future..... and it is NOW! People have had this idea for years, and it is sort of becoming a reality as MattWalt mentioned. There are still issues though, beyond just the intellectual property ones. Things like how you calibrate for your feedstock (a big factor when it comes to part strength), what your machine is actually capable of (most printers can't print the materials we do in the shapes we do. Even ABS is pretty challenging for most consumer grade printers that are mostly stuck with PLA), post-processing of the print (none of the slingshots are just print and ship, they all have to be cleaned up and get some finishing touches before going out), and so on. The closest to 3D fax machines at current are probably the SLA machines, unfortunately even they have a fair bit of post processing (washing, the uncured resin is toxic, and post-curing), the results generally don't have good material properties for end-use parts, etc.

We're getting there though. It is all just so exciting. I've been working with 3D printing for a really long time now, it has always been a good solution to the prickly problem of prototyping. And it used to be just that, the models were useless beyond just a way to double check all your designs and dimensions looked right. Slowly though the industry advanced to the point where you could get usable parts off professional level machines for not too unreasonable prices. Then about 5 years ago the consumer level 3D printing machines started exploding in terms of technology and capabilities, once again going from cutsie crap to real usable efficient machines. Now you can get a Prusa for about 800$. So I see great things in the future of 3D printing. Desktop Metal for example is about to change the way we manufacture metal components. Sure their "desktop" system is a genuinely bad idea, but their production level system promises to be the best metal printer for production environments out there, and if they don't take that technology to competition with CNC machining the next startup which upsets them will.

This is all just the coolest stuff. I get so excited watching it happen, and in some tiny little way being a part of it.


----------



## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

MakoPat said:


> Jolly Roger said:
> 
> 
> > Seems like we've come so far in our advancements with such things as 3D printing that someone could figure out how to just fax packages to their destination. I know, it is an absurd idea but it might start with something as simple as making the necessary computer connections and instead of the postal service delivering the package it is 3D printed out on the receiving end. Go ahead and laugh, if we don't destroy this wicked world before it happens it is a definite possibility.
> ...


29 years ago people laughed at me when I asked them to just fax me the package. Yes I knew better and was joking but even back then contended that it would some day be possible.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


----------



## Allst (May 12, 2018)

What about just beaming it over


----------



## STO (Mar 2, 2018)

Just a quick update, and hopefully the last, to this saga.

We punched our way through to the other side of the bureaucracy and got in touch with USPS and got at least some problems solved and questions answered. We were finally able to RTS the order and refund Allst's payment, so that is all set. We also learned something: It wasn't the fault of our shipping software. USPS themselves reject this freight forwarder's address. *You can not put that address in their system*, they automatically change the zip code in exactly the same way. I don't know why this is, but it does mean even if I'd have hand written the label and taken it to the post office the good old fashioned way they'd have punched the address into their system, gotten the correction, and re-addressed it right in front of me. Why the corrected address pops as undeliverable, after being taken out for delivery, I still have no answers. :iono: :iono: :iono:

I do however have the before and after addresses. I would really appreciate it if you (Allst) would allow me to publish the name of the freight forwarder as well as both addresses with your name and personal box number redacted so nothing personal to you is published however we and the greater interwebz can (potentially) learn from this and/or be warned.


----------



## Allst (May 12, 2018)

STO really need to sort out . I have not had this problem with any other supplier. My latest Scorpion was delivered by USPS last week Thursday and should be in hand any day now. Perhaps less technology is best THAWCK.


----------



## STO (Mar 2, 2018)

May I please post the freight forwarder information and tracking number? (your name and box number redacted) I've asked a couple times now in private messages, emails, and here on the forum. I don't know why this order was not delivered, however what I've said about the addresses and the tracking is independently verifiable to anyone who cares to look it up, and contains none of your personal information. Given that you've brought this out into the public, I think it is only reasonable to share the whole story of what has happened. This is not just because the truth matters and can verify what I have said, but because someone else may be able to benefit from it.


----------



## STO (Mar 2, 2018)

Final update to this whole Allst shipping saga. The slingshot is back! Allst privately refused to let me share the tracking number, so I blacked it out, but here is the package back:









The original (automatically corrected, maybe to the wrong thing?) zip code of 33150 is covered by the RTS label along with the rest of the address of the freight forwarder, however clearly visible below is the zip code Allst originally provided and claimed was correct all along of 33126. The postal service still thinks differently, when I picked this up I ran the address by one of the clerks at the post office and he says the system still corrects that address to 33150. So yeah, I don't know what this freight forwarder's issue is, but I'm out of ideas on how I could have gotten this package to its intended recipient. :/ I know I've said this before, but I want to say this again: I make absolutely every possible effort to get people's orders out to them in a timely manner, and I really really REALLY want things to show up on time, intact, and in great shape. When orders don't, everyone loses. I've lost much hair over this over the years, and I expect that'll only continue..... at least until I'm out of hair.  :banghead:

On the up side, I've got a gorgeous metallic copper Harpy here just begging for a home. (copper and gold metallic are my two favorite colors for this slingshot, they're just awesome) It is left hand hold, and a good size for average hands. It is new, other than having gone for quite the exciting ride through the postal system, and I'm giving it away for half price (15$) plus shipping. PM me if you want it. :wave: :wave:


----------



## Covert5 (Feb 7, 2018)

PM sent bro.


----------



## STO (Mar 2, 2018)

And it is gone!


----------

