# The Butterfly/albatross Shooting Style



## torsten

Hello!

I´m an "old" member and found this section a few days ago...

Ok - for all who want to see and learn the Butterly style - from different perspectives: Front views, side and back views, pouch and slingshot views of a "live-butterfly-shooting-session".

Without talking - just shooting!

Here is my old video:






Have fun and

best regards
Torsten


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## newconvert

This one i can get my teeth into, just as soon as i finish the laundry!


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## Knoll

newconvert said:


> This one i can get my teeth into, just as soon as i finish the laundry!


Your day too, huh?


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## newconvert

hahahahhaahhaa the fun is non stop around here, i should sell tickets, thanks Knoll you brought a smile to my face knowing i am not alone


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## newconvert

to me the butterfly is a thing of beauty, and he makes it look so simple, it actually is once you find the right bands, but if i could shoot with his accuracy i would rig everything butterfly, the speed is crazy and that also translates into energy. its fun but i am struggling with the right grip just because using the howitzer i get body side hand slap not target side, gonna have to talk with Tobias again!

thanks Torsten


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## Xidoo

Torsten is the best shooting this style. This video have tought me a couple of things about my own shooting style. Saludos.


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## torsten

It really doesn`t matter what style one shoots. The main thing is not the style - important is that you hit the target. And a bit of fun will also be great








It`s just a thing of personal preference.

Shooting the albatross style has an advantage for me: it generates incredible speed with incredible low draw. And the speed - plus the low draw force - makes it much easier for me to shoot long range because of the flatter trajectory. I`m not an expert in adjusting the my aiming with a larger drop - absoluteley not!!

Regards
Torsten


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## mr.joel

Torsten also got me into albatross, it is challenging but worth it in the long run. I think it's really all in the release to master, we tend to over-complicate it focusing on forks, holds, etc. The best thing about albatross is the ability to maximize small bullets' potential. Of course this is true with larger balls as well, but with the little guys it seems impossible to get any semblance of power in a short draw.

Might I add I prefer the albatross moniker to butterfly- pink my slingshot is not, nor does it does not ride in a HelloKitty lunchbox.


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## newconvert

mr.joel said:


> Torsten also got me into albatross, it is challenging but worth it in the long run. I think it's really all in the release to master, we tend to over-complicate it focusing on forks, holds, etc. The best thing about albatross is the ability to maximize small bullets' potential. Of course this is true with larger balls as well, but with the little guys it seems impossible to get any semblance of power in a short draw.
> 
> Might I add I prefer the albatross moniker to butterfly- pink my slingshot is not, nor does it does not ride in a HelloKitty lunchbox.


flot like a butter







fly sting like a bee


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## Berkshire bred

they are great words and a great saying


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## LVO

Last night I hooked up a frame to shoot Albatross style and I have great news! Did not hit my face, hand or any windows! Also did not hit my target, but I scared it a few times. I used the Walmart Red latex sheets cut 3/4 inch. Not sure on draw length, but it's pretty long(i know i have "wingspan" of 78 inches). Man, those 1/4 and 5/16 steelies come ZOOMING out of there! No chrony, but the eyeball test says that my beer can target was VERY scared to see them zipping by. Am hoping with a bigger catchbox and some time, I'll be able to send that can to the great recycling center in the sky. 
PS.. Torsten looks as smooth as Baryshnikov when he shoots. Great form


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## newconvert

LVO said:


> Last night I hooked up a frame to shoot Albatross style and I have great news! Did not hit my face, hand or any windows! Also did not hit my target, but I scared it a few times. I used the Walmart Red latex sheets cut 3/4 inch. Not sure on draw length, but it's pretty long(i know i have "wingspan" of 78 inches). Man, those 1/4 and 5/16 steelies come ZOOMING out of there! No chrony, but the eyeball test says that my beer can target was VERY scared to see them zipping by. Am hoping with a bigger catchbox and some time, I'll be able to send that can to the great recycling center in the sky.
> PS.. Torsten looks as smooth as Baryshnikov when he shoots. Great form


the important thing about your shoot is that you came out unscathed! but my fav part of your story is the fact that you brought fear into the hearts of those wicked hateful beer cans! keep it up!


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## mr.joel

It's true, I'd shoot albatross just to look that cool! It really doesn't matter if your hitting or not if you're that smooth! Torsten's video on how to shoot albatross really does show some good form and different releases.

I've taken straight 20mm TBBk and folded it to fit Hogan Casting's Scallops, works for getting comfortable with the style, and also if you need to limit your power.


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## newconvert

mr.joel said:


> It's true, I'd shoot albatross just to look that cool! It really doesn't matter if your hitting or not if you're that smooth! Torsten's video on how to shoot albatross really does show some good form and different releases.
> 
> I've taken straight 20mm TBBk and folded it to fit Hogan Casting's Scallops, works for getting comfortable with the style, and also if you need to limit your power.


very true, its in large the fun involved, but after while just like anything else, you will begin hitting, i keep getting closer and closer, and at the increased speed it is becoming a preferred method of shooting for me. less strain, more speed, gotta love it.


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## akmslingshots

I cant wait to get my hands on some black, not even gonna bother trying with the gold


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## newconvert

akmslingshots said:


> I cant wait to get my hands on some black, not even gonna bother trying with the gold


i did Tex'S latex and gold, to hard to draw, you cant hit if your shaking lol, the black is just right, and very very fasy, it will surprise you!


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## mr.joel

Blue is even a shred snappier...in every sense of the word.


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## pop shot

the relationship is not linear between red/green/blue/black and the speeds with the same taper and cut. stronger is not faster.

readme <=== here's the chart of resistance for FULL WIDTH theraband


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## mr.joel

That is true, which is why it's best to try them as a chart really doesn't give you a tangible picture.


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## akmslingshots

I understand the meaning of the chart figures, but real world its very complex to comprehend in my eyes, without complex mathematics at least.

I will start with Torstens measurements then tweak the tapers from there. Only by small amounts.

Anyone tried thera black over gold in short hunting style bands for 9.5mm steel to 12mm lead at all?

I really need to invest in a Chrony


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## mr.joel

Even with math, you won't get a picture of the variance in stretch, for example. Layering the rubber with different thicknesses tends not to work so well for this reason. I wouldn't waste my latex messing around with that. It would seem like a great way to even out power but the latex just ends up fighting itself without giving any of this to the bullet.

If the green isn't cutting it, add a bit more.


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## LVO

A cautionary tale.
Recently I had posted that I was trying out albatross style shooting and was impressed at the speed. Cans were scared and they, too were impressed with the speed of the balls zipping by. I ran across a note/post where someone recommended that you "lightly" touch the top band to your cheek. Well, on the second shot, the steel ball went WAY off course and missed everything. As the shot zoomed away, I heard a very loud noise......accompanied by a great deal of pain!







The pouch with the ball inside SMACKED the back of my ear. Felt like I'd been hit with a bad hop in baseball straight in the ear. (yes, been there). I'm pretty certain I'm the first person on forum to either DO this or ADMIT. It's funny now, and after i realized my ear was still attached, I had to chuckle a little bit then, too. 
After getting back on the figurative horse, I managed to hit 2 out my next ten shots! 
And glad to report my ears are the same size again!

Torsten, I have even MORE respect for your skills. I will continue to get better at it, though. In the mean time, stand on my left side to talk to me


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## newconvert

akmslingshots said:


> I understand the meaning of the chart figures, but real world its very complex to comprehend in my eyes, without complex mathematics at least.
> 
> I will start with Torstens measurements then tweak the tapers from there. Only by small amounts.
> 
> Anyone tried thera black over gold in short hunting style bands for 9.5mm steel to 12mm lead at all?
> 
> I really need to invest in a Chrony


i have several posting in this thread, i will take thera black over gold any time for butterfly, the pull is lighter, and from tests by others you canachieve speeds in excess of 400 fps using the black, the gold i am sure would give similar or equal results but at a much heavier draw.


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## newconvert

LVO said:


> A cautionary tale.
> Recently I had posted that I was trying out albatross style shooting and was impressed at the speed. Cans were scared and they, too were impressed with the speed of the balls zipping by. I ran across a note/post where someone recommended that you "lightly" touch the top band to your cheek. Well, on the second shot, the steel ball went WAY off course and missed everything. As the shot zoomed away, I heard a very loud noise......accompanied by a great deal of pain!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pouch with the ball inside SMACKED the back of my ear. Felt like I'd been hit with a bad hop in baseball straight in the ear. (yes, been there). I'm pretty certain I'm the first person on forum to either DO this or ADMIT. It's funny now, and after i realized my ear was still attached, I had to chuckle a little bit then, too.
> After getting back on the figurative horse, I managed to hit 2 out my next ten shots!
> And glad to report my ears are the same size again!
> 
> Torsten, I have even MORE respect for your skills. I will continue to get better at it, though. In the mean time, stand on my left side to talk to me


stay on the horse brother, what works for some wont work for others, i notice Tobias and Torsten dont reall have any anchor point touching body parts, at this speed the release and violent contraction would be dangerous. for safeties sake i always have someone else do it lol


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## mr.joel

I have not done the ear thing, but have anticipated it. When shooting albatross I also sometimes touch (more like bounce) the elastic to my cheek for better orientation of the bands.


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## akmslingshots

mr.joel said:


> ]i have several posting in this thread, i will take thera black over gold any time for butterfly, the pull is lighter, and from tests by others you canachieve speeds in excess of 400 fps using the black, the gold i am sure would give similar or equal results but at a much heavier draw.


I wonder to myself why everyone rates the gold so much over the black then?

What I will do when my black arrives is cut butterfly bands to Torstens specs for 9.5 steel or there abouts, which if memory serves correct is double or triple black with a heavy taper. I will also assume that the same specs cut at 'normal' lengths will produce the same kind of results, only with faster velocities than equivalent gold doubles.


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## mr.joel

More people here in this forum use larger shot in a shorter draw than we are talking about. The gold gives great performance and better longevity for those styles, which is why TBG is the most popular. Heavier rubber affects speed less when using heavier shot.


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## akmslingshots

So its more down to the lifespan of the bands then i guess.

I really think a chrony is a must, experimentation is needed


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## mr.joel

Als


akmslingshots said:


> So its more down to the lifespan of the bands then i guess.


While it's true that with large shot you still gain a little more velocity with the black/blue, etc. the velocity gain is less so than with smaller/less heavy shot. So it's a matter of longevity while still achieving similar results. Many have said this, it's all about what you are willing to compromise in order to achieve your desired gain.


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## akmslingshots

Thank you, I am learning the ways of the sling force quickly, making them look pretty is only half the battle. I have 2 quests, the 1st is to make a 9.5mm steel fly as fast and as flat as possible in a butterfly setup, and the 2nd is12mm lead in normal length bands hit as hard as possible.


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## mr.joel

Hitting as hard as possible is usually dictated by the weight of the bullet, the bands can give only so much force. If you want a hard hitter, a larger shot is a more realistic answer than more power in the bands; they usually go hand in hand anyways.

12mm is a good medium-large size and will hit plenty hard enough, but 14 and 16mm will hit much harder even with a bit less velocity.


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## akmslingshots

I would love a 14mm cast, will get one eventually. The butterfly setup is my first goal, Im hoping that my thera black will arrive today, I have my mat and cutter at the ready


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## newconvert

akmslingshots said:


> ]i have several posting in this thread, i will take thera black over gold any time for butterfly, the pull is lighter, and from tests by others you canachieve speeds in excess of 400 fps using the black, the gold i am sure would give similar or equal results but at a much heavier draw.


I wonder to myself why everyone rates the gold so much over the black then?

What I will do when my black arrives is cut butterfly bands to Torstens specs for 9.5 steel or there abouts, which if memory serves correct is double or triple black with a heavy taper. I will also assume that the same specs cut at 'normal' lengths will produce the same kind of results, only with faster velocities than equivalent gold doubles.
[/quote]i think the big thing here andy is band life, i have either enjoyed tes's latex or the thera black to gold. i know this is just my opinion but i think gold especialy for new comers is the "gold" standard a must have, but the more i play the more i learn


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## akmslingshots

newconvert said:


> i think the big thing here andy is band life, i have either enjoyed tes's latex or the thera black to gold. i know this is just my opinion but i think gold especialy for new comers is the "gold" standard a must have, but the more i play the more i learn


This is the impression I am getting, just waiting for my lunch to cook and il be taking this for a walk

12 - 22mm double band at 29cm length


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## mr.joel

What bullet is just as important...what size are you shooting?


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## akmslingshots

Well... I tested the bandset thoroughly today and could hit a can at 40+ yards, This style seems to allow instinctive shooting to come forth, I will be shooting butterfly almost exclusively!

And I can see why the black is favoured over gold, going to experiment with 3 layer at 'normal' length for hunting


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## akmslingshots

mr.joel said:


> What bullet is just as important...what size are you shooting?


It was 9.5mm steel with this setup, I feel 8's would be like missiles out of it!


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## newconvert

akmslingshots said:


> Well... I tested the bandset thoroughly today and could hit a can at 40+ yards, This style seems to allow instinctive shooting to come forth, I will be shooting butterfly almost exclusively!
> 
> And I can see why the black is favoured over gold, going to experiment with 3 layer at 'normal' length for hunting


i am also considering butterfly exclusively its just so much faster and flatter.


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## akmslingshots

I have about 6, 8mm bearings in the bottom of a bag of 9.5's. Gonna have to dig them out tomorrow, I bet the little b*ggers bl**dy shift









Need to try and figure out a butterfly setup for the 12mm lead next.

do you shoot butterfly instinctively? I find that as long as I cant see two bits of band only learning elevation will be required. I noticed that the ammo flies so flat I kept shooting high thinking I would need to hold over more. Will record a vid of some shooting if the weather holds over the next few days


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## mr.joel

newconvert said:


> Well... I tested the bandset thoroughly today and could hit a can at 40+ yards, This style seems to allow instinctive shooting to come forth, I will be shooting butterfly almost exclusively!
> 
> And I can see why the black is favoured over gold, going to experiment with 3 layer at 'normal' length for hunting


i am also considering butterfly exclusively its just so much faster and flatter.
[/quote]I still like a shorter draw for moving targets and shorter distances. My Joker seems to work well forks up for a semi-albatross/butterfly similar to Dgui's method. Shooting fast is something different. I switch to the heavier .36 ball for this (lacking anything heavier).​
How about silver? Anybody tried that? Dayhiker said it's good stuff...​


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## akmslingshots

mr.joel said:


> I still like a shorter draw for moving targets and shorter distances. My Joker seems to work well forks up for a semi-albatross/butterfly similar to Dgui's method. Shooting fast is something different. I switch to the heavier .36 ball for this (lacking anything heavier).​


 I can relate to the close range shooting, out of curiosity, the semi-albatross style, is this over extended standard length bands or under extended full bands? I cant imagine cutting a 3rd set completely lol.

apologies if this seems like a stupid question


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## newconvert

mr.joel said:


> Well... I tested the bandset thoroughly today and could hit a can at 40+ yards, This style seems to allow instinctive shooting to come forth, I will be shooting butterfly almost exclusively!
> 
> And I can see why the black is favoured over gold, going to experiment with 3 layer at 'normal' length for hunting


i am also considering butterfly exclusively its just so much faster and flatter.
[/quote]I still like a shorter draw for moving targets and shorter distances. My Joker seems to work well forks up for a semi-albatross/butterfly similar to Dgui's method. Shooting fast is something different. I switch to the heavier .36 ball for this (lacking anything heavier).[/left]

How about silver? Anybody tried that? Dayhiker said it's good stuff...​[/quote]
hows the joker shoot for you? thats an interesting looking sling.


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## newconvert

akmslingshots said:


> I still like a shorter draw for moving targets and shorter distances. My Joker seems to work well forks up for a semi-albatross/butterfly similar to Dgui's method. Shooting fast is something different. I switch to the heavier .36 ball for this (lacking anything heavier).​


I can relate to the close range shooting, out of curiosity, the semi-albatross style, is this over extended standard length bands or under extended full bands? I cant imagine cutting a 3rd set completely lol.

apologies if this seems like a stupid question








[/quote]
actuall i think its both, but probably better done overextended, the shortened butterflies would be underpowered.


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## akmslingshots

newconvert said:


> actuall i think its both, but probably better done overextended, the shortened butterflies would be underpowered.


of course, never thought of that









the weather is pants today so there might be an indoor range once my lady has gone to work


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## mr.joel

newconvert said:


> Well... I tested the bandset thoroughly today and could hit a can at 40+ yards, This style seems to allow instinctive shooting to come forth, I will be shooting butterfly almost exclusively!
> 
> And I can see why the black is favoured over gold, going to experiment with 3 layer at 'normal' length for hunting


i am also considering butterfly exclusively its just so much faster and flatter.
[/quote]I still like a shorter draw for moving targets and shorter distances. My Joker seems to work well forks up for a semi-albatross/butterfly similar to Dgui's method. Shooting fast is something different. I switch to the heavier .36 ball for this (lacking anything heavier).[/left]

How about silver? Anybody tried that? Dayhiker said it's good stuff...​[/quote]
hows the joker shoot for you? thats an interesting looking sling.
[/quote]
I like it very much, the Joker and Scallops are my favorite slings. It shoots great, I find it shoots very nice forks up and flipped. The posts give a very nice action when pulled by the bands, they almost seem mechanical rotating backward. I release when the forks reach their apex in height. I use a thumb brace hold.


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## akmslingshots

Is it the joker from milbro?

I reckon the silver is definitely worth trying! I have not even seen it mentioned up until now!


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## mr.joel

The Joker is from Hogan Castings/Milbro Pro Shot.

Dayhiker once said the silver has characteristics between gold and black.


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## akmslingshots

best of both worlds, with added bling haha.

Will buy a metre of it for experimentation when funds next allow


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## Bob Fionda

Very interesting video and thanks a lot for sharing with us Torsten.


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## JetBlack

This looks like fun but i'm scared I would hit my face or head.I'll just enjoy watching you guys do it.


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## mr.joel

JetBlack said:


> This looks like fun but i'm scared I would hit my face or head.I'll just enjoy watching you guys do it.


It only looks like it would, it's NEVER happened to me.


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## newconvert

mr.joel said:


> This looks like fun but i'm scared I would hit my face or head.I'll just enjoy watching you guys do it.


It only looks like it would, it's NEVER happened to me.
[/quote]me neither, not even close, but i have seen some vids of the results of hand hits using this method, thats part of it! pushing yourself, the slight apprehension, the release, watching the trajectory, the SMACK, yes indeed!


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## akmslingshots

i have had the pouch graze my face with some force but it really wasn't as bad as you might think. And that was down to stupidity, I knew i didn't have a proper hold on the pouch. has not and will not happen again.

really wasn't too bad either, not that i recommend it


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## mr.joel

newconvert said:


> This looks like fun but i'm scared I would hit my face or head.I'll just enjoy watching you guys do it.


It only looks like it would, it's NEVER happened to me.
[/quote]me neither, not even close, but i have seen some vids of the results of hand hits using this method, thats part of it! pushing yourself, the slight apprehension, the release, watching the trajectory, the SMACK, yes indeed!
[/quote]I am definitely more concerned about a hand hit.


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## newconvert

me too, but the hammer grip does not work for my beat up wrists


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## mr.joel

I can do a hammer grip, but it seems so inefficient compared to bracing with thumb and forefinger. If the power is high I shake, however I haven't tried a low fork model designed for hammer grip like the Moorhammer.


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## akmslingshots

I cant even imagine using a hammer grip on anything other than my Barnett, that's only down to the wrist brace. my first bought 'proper' slingshot was one of GKJohns PR4's and instantly the braced grip felt right and that's how it will stay now i guess.

I am more scared of catching my ear than hand


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## LVO

akmslingshots said:


> I cant even imagine using a hammer grip on anything other than my Barnett, that's only down to the wrist brace. my first bought 'proper' slingshot was one of GKJohns PR4's and instantly the braced grip felt right and that's how it will stay now i guess.
> 
> I am more scared of catching my ear than hand


Hey Andy, 
I resemble that remark! Actually, the next day the swelling on the ear was all gone!. And I can even hit a can,,,,, once in a blue moon. I'm getting more and more comfortable..... more of an instinctive style than aiming..... because if we listen to our instincts, our ears stay on our head!


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## akmslingshots

I like it, in fact the only incidents iv had or come close with were when concentrating to hard, the few good long shots iv done were all instinctive, then when i have tried to do the shot again while concentrating iv missed


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## torsten

akmslingshots said:


> I like it, in fact the only incidents iv had or come close with were when concentrating to hard, the few good long shots iv done were all instinctive, then when i have tried to do the shot again while concentrating iv missed


same here!

Don`t think, just shoot


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## mr.joel

It's true, huh? Particularly with a long draw. It's like you have to use The Force, innit?


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## Jakerock

Not the stealthiest way to shoot.







(city plinking requires stealth)

Awesome though... Torstens distance shooting is remarkable!


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## mr.joel

In New York you'd probably get 3-5 for plinking in public!


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## mr.joel

That could be a great game for the city: slingshot folf! You could add the stipulation of not being seen or the shot doesn't count.


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## Jakerock

mr.joel said:


> In New York you'd probably get 3-5 for plinking in public!


I have a court appearance in June regarding being caught plinking a garbanzo bean.
I was charged with disorderly conduct:

From an NYPD police officer:

"Disorderly conduct, while only being a violation, stays with you forever. It is NOT a crime,so, on job applications you do NOT have to say Yes you've been convicted of a crime.

The monetary penalty ranges anywhere from $0 - $250 + a mandatory $85 surcharge. So your monetary responsibility could be anywhere from $85 to $335. You could also be given a certain amount of days of "community service" or you could be put in jail (remanded) for up to 15 days."

While it is only one mans opinion found on the internet I consider it a reference point as I have no background in law or law enforcement, but I have read the law as written and it is a violation and not a crime, so jail time is unlikely considering I have no criminal record and no one was harmed.


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## mr.joel

Plead not guilty, demand a jury trial. DON'T back down or take a plea agreement, regardless of what the public pretender tells you. If you have no felonies and especially no record at all I'll bet dollars to donuts they will give up. Waste enough of their time and they will drop it. Think about it, their time is money. On an iffy BS thing like that think of how much of it you would waste on a jury trail: it won't get past_ voir dire_.

You are only obliged to divulge a conviction to your employer if you are a felon. Otherwise lying on an application is not a crime.


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## Jakerock

Thank you Mr Joel.


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## mr.joel

No problem. I've seen a lot of people get screwed over by the man in my day. Often simply because they are unaware of the way things _really _work. Hope it works out for you.


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## THWACK!

Torsten, are you "anchoring" the top band to your face for each shot?

Regards,

THWACK!


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