# Pulling Through The Stacking !



## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

I have most of my tubes/bands at 9 inch static .. which according to everybody in the know that should give a 45" active draw length ,,, but for me it hasn't until ...

I said to heck with it, and just pulled back and at about 35 inches or so it felt like it wanted to stop and that is all the rubber had, but I kept on pulling hard till I got about 40" and let 'er rip .... made a huge difference in speed..I still according to everybody have another 5 inches to go !!!!

When you are pulling back to get your 500+% of draw, does the rubber start to stack (archery term) but you just pull through it ? I always stopped and maybe that is why my speed has been slower than most for the past few months. At times I was using ~9.5+" static length tubes and was afraid to pull past 35 inches because of the stacking I was getting, I was afraid the rubber was going to break !

*Am I correct, that the bands will stack and you just pull through it ?*

BTW: I Don't get this feeling with flats, and don't get this feeling as much with amber tubes ... just black tubes !

wll


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## bigron (Nov 29, 2012)

what is stacking?


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## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

bigron said:


> what is stacking?


That is when your draw length tends to get very hard to pull back at a certain point (archery term). Usually caused by shooting a bow that is designed for a shorter draw length then you are pulling or using a low quality bow that does not have the flex that it should.

In this case the tubes when assembled at the correct length, stack before they reach the 500% elongation range.

wll


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## bigron (Nov 29, 2012)

if you get better speed when you keep pulling i would do the worst that could happen is that it shortens your tube life,but that seem like a worth while cost if it gets the performance you have been looking for tubes are cheap :king:


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## squirrel squasher (May 17, 2013)

Yes the bands should get heavier befor they reach full draw. Just keep pulling untill you feel like your pulling a rope.


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## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

squirrel squasher said:


> Yes the bands should get heavier befor they reach full draw. Just keep pulling untill you feel like your pulling a rope.


Thank you, yes they almost want to stop even at 35" draw, but I just kept pulling, It made a big difference.

What tube are you using and what static length are you set at, what your draw length?

Thank you for the answer !

wll


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## Stretch (Jan 8, 2012)

I thought it was just me, because I haven't really heard anyone else talk about it. But this is actually the main reason I mostly shoot flats. Overall to me they seem MUCH smoother than tubes. I shot tubes for a long time first, and when I discovered flats it was like a graceful revelation. Just my :twocents:. Yes they wear out a little quicker, but I have learned to tie them myself without a jig in the field, and at about 15 cents a set I don't care how many I go through...


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## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

Stretch said:


> I thought it was just me, because I haven't really heard anyone else talk about it. But this is actually the main reason I mostly shoot flats. Overall to me they seem MUCH smoother than tubes. I shot tubes for a long time first, and when I discovered flats it was like a graceful revelation. Just my :twocents:. Yes they wear out a little quicker, but I have learned to tie them myself without a jig in the field, and at about 15 cents a set I don't care how many I go through...


*Found the Answer* !

Well it seems that black tubes in general have more resistance to being pulled to the 500+% than amber tubes (not talking about flats). I also seems that the black tubes especially must be broken in, and you need to stretch them 500+% to do this. Once they are broken in, the tubes will stretch easier, allowing for full draw length and long acceleration that a longer draw brings.

I was always wondering why guys like Bill Hays, would have 10.5' static rubber, and draw 50 inches, where I would have 9.5 static rubber and the tubes just hit a wall and wanted to stop at about 35 inches ........ I needed to pull through the wall !

Found this out through a couple of sources yesterday, on a forum, and a personal phone call.

This means I can shorten up my static length to about 8+" I'll be getting more speed because of the shorter tube and a longer draw, meaning more energy and acceleration to the ammo. I hope that this will increase my total speed about 10+fps ........ that would be great with the heavy ammo I have been using as it will be a good increase in down range POI power.

Info for those that have had the same issues as me.

wll


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## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

Doc said:


> Any interest in learning to shoot butterfly wll?


Doc,

I have thought about it, but ... I'm pretty much have a field type/hunting type shooting style, if you know what I mean.

My draw is what you wound probably call a deep draw, a bit less than 1/2 butterfly. I aim while I draw and actually most of the time actually aimed before I have drawn. I never pull and stop and aim, I don't think I have seen any butterfly shooters have a Push-Pull release.

I admire the guys that do shoot butterfly and I do love the speed they get, but it just does not fit into my personal style.

And that's my story and I'm stick'n to it ;- )

wll


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## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

Just got through "Conditioning" a set of tubes... lesson learned for sure.

It took a few moments of pulling,9 and pulling fairly hard) but you can actually feel the tubes release their set and stretch out. I put these pseudo 8 inch static 5/16od x 16w on a wrist sling and could pull to my full draw length, and was not stopped at the wall ... it did increase poundage, but there was no wall !

Very, very interesting, can hardly wait to test it out. I will be changing the Modified Daisy tubes also ... shortening them up yet able to pull for a full draw, my speed should increase.

wll

On a side note .. i will take the Daisy yellow tubes and condition them and see if that makes a big enough difference for them to be used ... that will be great for heavy lead !


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

_I can't remember seeing a tack driver drawing more then 1/2 butterfly. It seems to be a sacrifice of accuracy for power. I sometime pull into the stack you speak of when reaching for more power. Usually when trying to get some alternative band to reach the performance of thera band gold. If I'm trying for accuracy like hitting squirrel head at 20 feet. I wont go into the stack area. For fear of loosing accuracy. When people speak of push/pull draw and release. I have no idea what their :screwy:_ _talking about. I have watch Rufus Hussy videos. Rufus would set his pouch hand almost at full draw then extend his fork out and release. I do think experienced shoot do get greater performance form a slingshots. A interesting path your taken. Keep me informed of progress._


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## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

leadball said:


> _I can't remember seeing a tack driver drawing more then 1/2 butterfly. It seems to be a sacrifice of accuracy for power. I sometime pull into the stack you speak of when reaching for more power. Usually when trying to get some alternative band to reach the performance of thera band gold. If I'm trying for accuracy like hitting squirrel head at 20 feet. I wont go into the stack area. For fear of loosing accuracy. When people speak of push/pull draw and release. I have no idea what their :screwy:_ _talking about. I have watch Rufus Hussy videos. Rufus would set his pouch hand almost at full draw then extend his fork out and release. I do think experienced shoot do get greater performance form a slingshots. A interesting path your taken. Keep me informed of progress._


You are correct, Rufus was pretty much push pull, but he did the vast majority of his power stroke in the pushing of the fork. My pouch hand is about 8-12 inches from the release point, as I push the fork forward, my pouch hand comes back, when it feels right, I release (My forks are moving towards the target, my top fork and top tube are what I line up the target with before I start my motion). I actually aim before and while I'm in motion. I'm not a target shooter at all, so when I'm in the vicinity, I'm happy ;-)

Last bit of "target shooting" was with Jawbreakers at about 45+ yards through an ~30"x30" old abandon open house window, shot about 5 times and went through the window 3 as I remember, the other two hit just off to the side. Went on from there to shoot something else.;- ) I don't think I ever shot at something in my life over a few times before I moved on, I get a feel for the distance and the target size, and that's it. I wish I had it in me to shoot like you do, your a machine;- ) I just don't have it in me. I'm just an average guy walking around the hills field shooting, not the greatest, not the worst.

I very much enjoy working on the how and why and getting as much power supply efficiency as reasonably possible in a usable functioning sling shot. Right now I'm enjoying working on my tubes so they shoot smoother, and more efficient. Shooting 30-40fpe with three/four flat bands of TBG with a ? monster pull and 1" steel balls is not practical at all in IMHO and more of a stunt. That is usable in real world scenarios, and for my way of thinking, If you can't controllably aim and you strain to shoot, you are over powered, and for me that is not what I am after at all.

I might add, that if I lived where you do and where sling shot hunting is allowed, I would probably be shooting a bit different, In that I would most likely shoot a bit slower ..... But in California hunting with a sling is only for varmints or pest, and some of them are non huntable with a sling shot.

As for butterfly style for hunting, I don't feel as if I'm in control, and I really don't have an interest in it although the guys that do it are crazy good ---- wow ... but it is just not my style.

wll


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## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

wll said:


> I very much enjoy working on the how and why and getting as much power supply efficiency as reasonably possible in a usable functioning slingshot. Right now I'm enjoying working on my tubes so they shoot smoother, and more efficient. Shooting 30-40fpe with three/four flat bands of TBG with a ? monster pull and 1" steel balls is not practical at all in IMHO and more of a stunt. *That is usable in real world scenarios*, and for my way of thinking, If you can't controllably aim and you strain to shoot, you are over powered, and for me that is not what I am after at all.


Suppose to say *That is **NOT** usable in real world scenarios*

*wll*


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

I done a little shooting today. I found you are right on the push pull shooting for better speed of projectile. It will take some practice to to become accurate in this form. Below are two forks. The pseudo taper is very long for me but when I get into on the draw EhowD it go far. Out of sight with my glasses on, but while back there I fell weak and a little out of control. Before I cut down the length I think of Rufus. Not haft butterfly (my bad) but almost 3/4 butterfly, and a tack driver he was with rocks. Maybe my muscles will build up at the longer draw, and a satisfactory amount of accuracy will follow. As for the other fork below. I have been shooting those tubes for a very long time. I shoot fifty to a hundred shots a day and it seem I've had those tubes over a month. With the push pull method you thought me that fork will easily clear that 600+ feet muddy river who has beaten me before.

I don't remember putting up a video where I didn't can a little footage, but thank you for the kind words.

I enjoy following your work Mr. Will

As far as full butterfly. I'm to like spastic and weak to ever get the ball through the fork :shakehead: . My hero frogman is the master there

.


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

Forgot to put the picture up.


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## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

leadball said:


> DSCN1353.JPGForgot to put the picture up.


leadball,

You are one of the guys i follow, and I wish I had your talent.

I very much enjoy the scientific side of stuff and trying to find out ways to make things better. I still have a lot of testing to do this weekend and will chrono and report the test results. I'm interested in comparing my conditioned 5/16 straight, conditioned 5/16 pseudo and Double TBG for speed with 210 gr weights all at a draw of just over 8" ?

I'm assuming the TBG will out perform the tubes by more than a few FPS, but you never know.

Take care leadball, talk at ya later.

wll


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## Stretch (Jan 8, 2012)

Will be interested to see your results!


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## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

Stretch said:


> Will be interested to see your results!


My speed has increased a few fps, but the pulling process seems smoother, it get harder to pull, like you would expect, but there is no 'Wall: to speak of. Still i don't know how folks get 500% elongation. with 8,5 tubes it is all i can do to get ~38 draw .... maybe others are just pulling a lot harder than I am ?. I know my draw length as I have checked it many times by ruler and by the string method .... and it works out the same.

wll


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

Could be when their speaking about 500% . Their talking about single tapered flat band. Not to much tapered or it will rip right off one side of the pouch,


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## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

leadball said:


> Could be when their speaking about 500% . Their talking about single tapered flat band. Not to much tapered or it will rip right off one side of the pouch,


Ya, leadball, 500% is some pulling unless it is on light tubes ... try pulling looped 3060's, it is real tough for me ...... DTBG has some serious pull too ! I don't know if I could pull DTBG 500% without my pants falling off ...LOL, LOL, LOL.

wll


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

Wll

I'm bad to beef up my double theraband gold a little. With 1/2 steel balls, 158gr 38 wad cutters, and 50 cal leadball 12.5mm I think the 50cal is. I may can get buy with 3/4" at fork and 5/8" at pouch taper. The weight of that bit of extra band at 7/8 to 3/4" could even slow it down a little. I need to start thinking about a chrony I reckon. Most certainly be a little easier to pull.


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## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

leadball said:


> Wll
> 
> I'm bad to beef up my double theraband gold a little. With 1/2 steel balls, 158gr 38 wad cutters, and 50 cal leadball 12.5mm I think the 50cal is. I may can get buy with 3/4" at fork and 5/8" at pouch taper. The weight of that bit of extra band at 7/8 to 3/4" could even slow it down a little. I need to start thinking about a chrony I reckon. Most certainly be a little easier to pull.


leadball,

I have had a chrony for many, many years and find it a very valuable tool ... All the guessing is gone, the experiments you do are given back in hard facts ........ I can't begin to tell you the number of times I have planned some loads out and in my gun they under performed. There are also times I got a nice surprise.

Testing out the sling shot in general has been a mixed bag .... some of the speeds guys are getting have me at a loss. I'm about 6' tall and wear a 35' long sleeve shirt, yet my draw from long reach in my right hand to the left armpit is 38-39 inches. I don't feel comfortable in the butterfly draw.

I was actually very surprised by those single tapered tubes, they are anemic in size very easy to pull back yet shot pretty fast I thought, The double taper is much better for me though. The DTBG was slow but it had a pouch that weighs about 40 to 50grs, that makes a huge difference ! Pouch weight matters, attachment weight matters too!

The chrono can really help you get the kind of speed you want as you change pouches, stop using a cuff at the pouch end ... all that stuff translates into speed lost, and you will never really know unless you test yourself. The other BIG thing is your draw, your release method, and your follow through is unique to you, that plays a roll in your readings. If I stay with a good follow through I'll get one set of readings, If I don't follow through my speed will be quite a bit slower ..... also if I stop and then shoot my speed will be slower. Without a chrono I would have never known that by adding graphite powder to the inside of your tubes you would increase your speed by about 5%

Leadball, being that you are such a fine shot, I truly think that a chronograph will help your shooting and the performance you get by taking out any guesswork on your setup.

Take care buddy and talk to you later.

wll


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## nutthrower (Dec 18, 2011)

leadball - wii......... have been enjoying your conversations, thanks for your knowledge you share


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## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

nutthrower said:


> leadball - wii......... have been enjoying your conversations, thanks for your knowledge you share


Thanks buddy, it is all about sharing ideas to get the best performance possible.

wll


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## pgandy (Aug 15, 2011)

@WlI Just read your post and found it interesting as it parallels my thoughts. A chrony is well worth the money. It has taught me much both with blowpipes and slingshots. One thing that surprised me was that there is more to shooting than just blowing or pulling and releasing. Posture and technique both play a roll. I too get lower readings than other people. This bothered me for a long time before considering this in part maybe due to my heavy stitched enforced pouches that I get from Dankung. They seem to last forever. I had considered cuffing my bands at the pouch thinking that might add longer life. Now I will not try that. And thinking on it I can see where that is just more dead weight.


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

Sorry I know so little Wll

I could tell you all I know in 5 minutes. I have to say I am very interested in the work that your doing, and am learning from it also.

I like the 5/16" tube with 1/16 wall. It moves 1/2 steel balls faster then my 3060, but due to heaver pull I'm not as accurate with it as I am with the 30/60 tube that's not quit as good at moving the 1/2 steel. I check dankung site and there out of stock with the 4070 that that sale. I was hoping it would be a good go between. Almost all in slingshost is a trade off. You improve one thing at the cost of something else. Maybe I drop back to 40cal lead ball and 7/16 steel.


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## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

pgandy said:


> @WlI Just read your post and found it interesting as it parallels my thoughts. A chrony is well worth the money. It has taught me much both with blowpipes and slingshots. One thing that surprised me was that there is more to shooting than just blowing or pulling and releasing. Posture and technique both play a roll. I too get lower readings than other people. This bothered me for a long time before considering this in part maybe due to my heavy stitched enforced pouches that I get from Dankung. They seem to last forever. I had considered cuffing my bands at the pouch thinking that might add longer life. Now I will not try that. And thinking on it I can see where that is just more dead weight.





leadball said:


> Sorry I know so little Wll
> 
> I could tell you all I know in 5 minutes. I have to say I am very interested in the work that your doing, and am learning from it also.
> 
> I like the 5/16" tube with 1/16 wall. It moves 1/2 steel balls faster then my 3060, but due to heaver pull I'm not as accurate with it as I am with the 30/60 tube that's not quit as good at moving the 1/2 steel. I check dankung site and there out of stock with the 4070 that that sale. I was hoping it would be a good go between. Almost all in slingshost is a trade off. You improve one thing at the cost of something else. Maybe I drop back to 40cal lead ball and 7/16 steel.


*Pgandy*,

I was VERY big into blow guns and made mine patterned after the head hunters of Borneo. i still have them. The are about 6.5 feet long 1/2 inch diameter and use 9 inch bamboo skewers. I used to barb the tips and use %%#@### and they were deadly. The secret to blowgun power it the blow itself. You build up a tremendous pressure in your lungs and EXPLODE IT OUT, LIKE A GUN .. the dart comes flying out. The other serest is making the dart as light as possible.

I could go on and on about blowguns, this is stuff I did in the '60's I went to the libraries and read everything i could on them and there function. I used mine for hunting ground squirrels, and all types of small game and was very successful. Hitting a 6-9 inch pie plate at 15+ yds was no big deal. I should send a pic of the wooden mouth pieces I had made then I was in my early teens, patterned after what the natives used for 1000's of years.

On your mentioning the pouch weight ...yes it makes a good difference in speed, on the main reason I no longer use cuffs on the pouch side ... way to much weight. 8-10grs of pouch assemble weight or a 8-10gr heavier projectile or 3 to 5 fps more !

*Leadball*,

Yes, the 5/16 is a heavier pull for sure, and is pretty good tube for bigger game with heavy ammo. It sends that stuff pretty good and what I like is, it is a single tube and very clean in the field.

I now have two tube sets, my 5/16od for heavy (200-300gr) ammo and my pseudo 3060 for ammo in the (84-120gr) range. I still need to try single 3060 to see how that does.

Talk at you guys later,

wll


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## pgandy (Aug 15, 2011)

Wll

I too copied from the Dayaks and found mounting a bayonet useful. My best shooting pipes are of 2m, but made most of my kills with a 4' pipe because they handle better in tight quarters. I used 9" bamboo darts for a long time and they are still a favourite to shoot although I rarely shoot them these days. I switched to 12" bamboo because they are more similar in weight to my other darts and have more energy, but they don't shoot as flat. I discovered that steel balls, marbles, and other projectiles that deliver blunt trauma excellent choices as they don't not leave a tell tale signature. In pre Columbian times people in my area used clay balls and moulds for making these have been found. There is a tribe up in Guatemala uses seeds on small birds. I would post some of my kills but I don't know how the moderators feel about that, some forums object and have special areas for that.

Here is the first of six videos I made on making a blowpipe. This pipe is not made in Dayak fashion as they bore their bores, but in a fashion used for reed type pipes as bamboo is abundant in my country. This was made in response to a challenge to make one using only natural materials with the exception I could use a knife, cord, saw, a fire maker (no match or lighter). It had to measure at least 4' and shoot through a fill drink can at 8 paces and I had to show liquid coming from both holes. All of which was a piece of cake. You can follow the remaining videos if desired, this will get you started.


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## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

pgandy said:


> Wll
> 
> I too copied from the Dayaks and found mounting a bayonet useful. My best shooting pipes are of 2m, but made most of my kills with a 4' pipe because they handle better in tight quarters. I used 9" bamboo darts for a long time and they are still a favourite to shoot although I rarely shoot them these days. I switched to 12" bamboo because they are more similar in weight to my other darts and have more energy, but they don't shoot as flat. I discovered that steel balls, marbles, and other projectiles that deliver blunt trauma excellent choices as they don't not leave a tell tale signature. In pre Columbian times people in my area used clay balls and moulds for making these have been found. There is a tribe up in Guatemala uses seeds on small birds. I would post some of my kills but I don't know how the moderators feel about that, some forums object and have special areas for that.
> 
> Here is the first of six videos I made on making a blowpipe. This pipe is not made in Dayak fashion as they bore their bores, but in a fashion used for reed type pipes as bamboo is abundant in my country. This was made in response to a challenge to make one using only natural materials with the exception I could use a knife, cord, saw, a fire maker (no match or lighter). It had to measure at least 4' and shoot through a fill drink can at 8 paces and I had to show liquid coming from both holes. All of which was a piece of cake. You can follow the remaining videos if desired, this will get you started.


Just fantastic, I love it. All mine were 6'+ of seamless aluminum tubing the last 3 feet or so reinforced and wrapped in Jute and then colored tape covering the rest of the pipe. I did not have palm trees to do what you did. You made a great blowpipe !

wll


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## pgandy (Aug 15, 2011)

Thanks. Make those banana trees.


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## wll (Oct 4, 2014)

pgandy said:


> Thanks. Make those banana trees.


That just shows my ignorance. If folks really new what a blowpipe will do .... it is a very incredible tool !

wll


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