# Why shoot "Butterfly", full or semi?



## mike160304

I guess a lot of us get to the point where, drawing to the cheekbone and tuned for 5x stretch (4.75x in my case), we are shooting ammo X with flatband Y with taper Z and getting, say, 200 feet per second.

Then I wonder, what would happen with the same X, Y and Z but doubling the flatband length and releasing from about 2 feet behind my head? Or "Full Butterfly", I think it is called?

In my case, I might get a neat hole drilled through my head and exiting through my right eye, which is best avoided.

Or the pouch might remove my safety glasses, my right ear or a bit of my face.

But apart from all that, what kind of fps could one expect?

I doubt that I am actually going to try this.


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## Ibojoe

It's all about power for me. I'm still amazed at how much you can get from so little rubber. I shoot targets with 1/2" Sumeike .45's 13" active and draw somewhere around 67". Don't have a chrony but 7/16 steel and .44 lead just breaks target after target. 
Love it.


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## mattwalt

You would need to decrease the bandwidth for longer draws - to prevent overpowering.


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## Grandpa Grumpy

Another advantage of shooting a longer draw is band life. Since the band usually breaks at the pouch or the fork end, you just cut and inch off each band and retie. You can't do this if you have a fixed anchor.


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## urbanshooter

I might be a bit strange but I shoot OTT with a semi-butterfly floating anchor but TTF with a fixed anchor against my cheekbone. That distinction helps me to refrain from twisting or tweaking my pouch when shooting TTF. A longer draw for OTT also yields a lot more power and who doesn't enjoy that? My bands are tapered so they always break at the pouch end and when they do, I'll recycle. Shortened bands are repurposed into TTF bandsets. My bands go through two cycles of life for me and they continue to perform just fine on their second life. I shoot mostly Sumeike and Precise rubber.


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## Bob E

I like how I can tune my butterfly bands for a very light draw and still get good speeds.


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## Tremoside

You can check Flatband's threads and videos about chasing maximum speed.

TheraBand Black with 8mm is a great combo. Just keep it light and inexpensive.

Pick a large target and you will dial in fast.


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## andypandy1

I switched from a fixed anchor point to 3/4 butterfly floating anchor, I feel like I get faster shots and a flatter trajectory over longer distances when hunting, I love it. Definitely not going back.


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## JASling

andypandy1 said:


> I switched from a fixed anchor point to 3/4 butterfly floating anchor, I feel like I get faster shots and a flatter trajectory over longer distances when hunting, I love it. Definitely not going back.


What does your set up consist of? Any recommendations for 3/8 (9.5mm) steal?
Thanks 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## mike160304

Ibojoe said:


> It's all about power for me. I'm still amazed at how much you can get from so little rubber. I shoot targets with 1/2" Sumeike .45's 13" active and draw somewhere around 67". Don't have a chrony but 7/16 steel and .44 lead just breaks target after target.
> Love it.


That sounds impressive, I never thought about using 1/2" .45 flatband with 7/16" steel!


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## mike160304

mattwalt said:


> You would need to decrease the bandwidth for longer draws - to prevent overpowering.


Thanks!


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## mike160304

Grandpa Grumpy said:


> Another advantage of shooting a longer draw is band life. Since the band usually breaks at the pouch or the fork end, you just cut and inch off each band and retie. You can't do this if you have a fixed anchor.


Thanks, that's a good point!


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## mike160304

urbanshooter said:


> I might be a bit strange but I shoot OTT with a semi-butterfly floating anchor but TTF with a fixed anchor against my cheekbone. That distinction helps me to refrain from twisting or tweaking my pouch when shooting TTF. A longer draw for OTT also yields a lot more power and who doesn't enjoy that? My bands are tapered so they always break at the pouch end and when they do, I'll recycle. Shortened bands are repurposed into TTF bandsets. My bands go through two cycles of life for me and they continue to perform just fine on their second life. I shoot mostly Sumeike and Precise rubber.


Thanks, I had never thought about these recycling possibilities.


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## mike160304

Bob E said:


> I like how I can tune my butterfly bands for a very light draw and still get good speeds.


Thanks - the same speed for a lighter draw is an attractive idea.


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## mike160304

Tremoside said:


> You can check Flatband's threads and videos about chasing maximum speed.
> 
> TheraBand Black with 8mm is a great combo. Just keep it light and inexpensive.
> 
> Pick a large target and you will dial in fast.


Thanks, I'll look for Flatband's threads and videos.


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## mike160304

andypandy1 said:


> I switched from a fixed anchor point to 3/4 butterfly floating anchor, I feel like I get faster shots and a flatter trajectory over longer distances when hunting, I love it. Definitely not going back.


Thanks, there's a lot of positive support for butterfly shooting in these replies.


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## jazz

Extending the draw (with the same Draw Power) from, say, 75 cm to 150 cm gives you higher exit velocity, for example:

CASE 1, 75 cm draw:

Draw Power=4.667 kg
Ammo Weight=3.55 g (9.5 mm steel ball)
Pouch Weight=0.53 g
Rubber Weight (15 cm Active Band Length, 2 cm straight cut, 2 bands) = 4,76 g
Draw Length = 75 cm
Stretch Ratio=5
ELONGATION=60 cm
Exit Velocity=65.2 m/s or 213.9 ft/s

CASE 2, 150 cm draw:

Draw Power=4.667 kg
Ammo Weight=3.55 g (9.5 mm steel ball)
Pouch Weight=0.53 g
Rubber Weight (30 cm Active Band Length, 2 cm straight cut, 2 bands) = 9,52 g
Draw Length = 150 cm
Stretch Ratio=5
ELONGATION=120 cm
Exit Velocity=78.8 m/s or 258.6 ft/s

Points where parameters are different are underlined. In the final analysis, you get more velocity but not two times as somebody might expect, because of the internal math that is used to calculate it.

Somebody may also comment that the gain in the velocity is not much, only some 13 m/s, but if you already have 65.2 m/s additional 13 m/s is not chicken shi**..

cheers,

jazz


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## StringSlap

JASling said:


> andypandy1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I switched from a fixed anchor point to 3/4 butterfly floating anchor, I feel like I get faster shots and a flatter trajectory over longer distances when hunting, I love it. Definitely not going back.
> 
> 
> 
> What does your set up consist of? Any recommendations for 3/8 (9.5mm) steal?
> Thanks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I'm shooting semi butterfly with a floating anchor and currently using Simple Shot black 3/4" straight with 8" active length. 3/8 steel is sizzling down range!


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## JASling

StringSlap said:


> JASling said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> andypandy1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I switched from a fixed anchor point to 3/4 butterfly floating anchor, I feel like I get faster shots and a flatter trajectory over longer distances when hunting, I love it. Definitely not going back.
> 
> 
> 
> What does your set up consist of? Any recommendations for 3/8 (9.5mm) steal?
> Thanks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm shooting semi butterfly with a floating anchor and currently using Simple Shot black 3/4" straight with 8" active length. 3/8 steel is sizzling down range!
Click to expand...

Thanks m8 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## romanljc

Why ?
I will give you the short answer speed !!! With lighter bands .
And some guys do it just for fun 
Are the main reasons .


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## mike160304

jazz said:


> Extending the draw (with the same Draw Power) from, say, 75 cm to 150 cm gives you higher exit velocity, for example: . . . . . . . . . . .


Jazz, many thanks for this comparison, it is the kind of objective comparison that I was hoping for.

44.7 fps more, ca 21% fps more, from the same band width and taper, with the same draw weight, is a massive difference and would FEEL even faster than the "21%" might suggest.

Other replies have talked about reducing band width and draw weight.

Obviously the comparisons that one could make, and the time one could spend on it, are endless, I shall certainly read/watch Flatband's experiments.

My little Dankung chronograph, sits on a camera tripod, is priceless. It hardly ever misses a shot and tells the truth, enabling me to sort out the objective facts from the "FEEL". I am surprised that so few shooters seem to have a chronograph, they are so relatively cheap these days.

Thanks again.


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## mike160304

romanljc said:


> Why ?
> I will give you the short answer speed !!! With lighter bands .
> And some guys do it just for fun
> Are the main reasons .


Thanks!


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## Ibojoe

mike160304 said:


> Ibojoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all about power for me. I'm still amazed at how much you can get from so little rubber. I shoot targets with 1/2" Sumeike .45's 13" active and draw somewhere around 67". Don't have a chrony but 7/16 steel and .44 lead just breaks target after target.
> Love it.
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds impressive, I never thought about using 1/2" .45 flatband with 7/16" steel!
Click to expand...

It's all about the long draw. The 7/16 balances out that set up well and makes the bands last a long time.


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## mike160304

lbojoe - Thanks, got it.


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## skropi

For me, the extended draw, 3/4 or full butterfly, is much more relaxing and fun. I am less accurate without a fixed anchor, but I think it's time to make the move and abandon the fixed anchor, in favour of pure fun. Oh, extended draws are more addictive too!


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## mike160304

skropi said:


> For me, the extended draw, 3/4 or full butterfly, is much more relaxing and fun. I am less accurate without a fixed anchor, but I think it's time to make the move and abandon the fixed anchor, in favour of pure fun. Oh, extended draws are more addictive too!


Yes - I found that pursuing accuracy, in the 10 metre competition sense, using 6 mm (1/4") or maybe 8mm (3/8" ammo). became frustrating and is not for everyone. And nor are Chinese steel slings with optic fibre sights. I have gone back to my tree fork efforts (photo) with clay balls of weight similar to steel up to 1/2", and have stopped worrying about obsessive accuracy.

"Wings", in the photo, is about to get the longer, thinner rubber.

And my 1" ice balls say it all - just harmless fun, not preparing for an Alien invasion, or trying to be a competition hero.

Playing with extended draw, especially with my fun Dankung chronograph, is feeling irresistible.

Until I get more competent, I guess I could wear a baseball cap backwards with some thick cardboard taped upwards from the peak - not an ideal fashion statement, but no-one will be watching. A crash helmet would get in the way.

Thanks,

Mike


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## skropi

Mike, I never managed to hit myself, even when I tried full butterfly, which really looks scary, but if you follow some very basic steps, its definitely harmless. Just dont speed bump the pouch mate, thats all it takes to shoot safely.
I like the competitive side of slingshots, and now I know exactly what is my preference. 9.5mm steel with a draw weight around 8.2-8.8lbs. With 3/4 butterfly I can shoot around 5lbs with good speed. 
When I say "competitive", I dont mean less fun. Its just that I have fun when I hit my smallest spinners all the time ????


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## rosco

I love my butterfly for all the reasons stated and the crack of the rubber as it flys past your ear can be truly deafening. My problem is a big scraggy beard. Always picking hairs out of the pouch knot. Got a neck warmer to hold it in check, but still manage to pick up a few.

Form counts with butterfly. The casual, ill considered, wayward shot can totally destroy a frame and the ricochet intense....of this I sadly know.


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## mike160304

skropi said:


> Mike, I never managed to hit myself, even when I tried full butterfly, which really looks scary, but if you follow some very basic steps, its definitely harmless. Just dont speed bump the pouch mate, thats all it takes to shoot safely.
> I like the competitive side of slingshots, and now I know exactly what is my preference. 9.5mm steel with a draw weight around 8.2-8.8lbs. With 3/4 butterfly I can shoot around 5lbs with good speed.
> When I say "competitive", I dont mean less fun. Its just that I have fun when I hit my smallest spinners all the time


Thanks, your preferred set-up is very helpful.


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## Long John

mike160304 said:


> skropi said:
> 
> 
> 
> For me, the extended draw, 3/4 or full butterfly, is much more relaxing and fun. I am less accurate without a fixed anchor, but I think it's time to make the move and abandon the fixed anchor, in favour of pure fun. Oh, extended draws are more addictive too!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes - I found that pursuing accuracy, in the 10 metre competition sense, using 6 mm (1/4") or maybe 8mm (3/8" ammo). became frustrating and is not for everyone. And nor are Chinese steel slings with optic fibre sights. I have gone back to my tree fork efforts (photo) with clay balls of weight similar to steel up to 1/2", and have stopped worrying about obsessive accuracy.
> 
> "Wings", in the photo, is about to get the longer, thinner rubber.
> 
> And my 1" ice balls say it all - just harmless fun, not preparing for an Alien invasion, or trying to be a competition hero.
> 
> Playing with extended draw, especially with my fun Dankung chronograph, is feeling irresistible.
> 
> Until I get more competent, I guess I could wear a baseball cap backwards with some thick cardboard taped upwards from the peak - not an ideal fashion statement, but no-one will be watching. A crash helmet would get in the way.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mike
Click to expand...

really like the ice balls 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bill Hays

mike160304 said:


> I guess a lot of us get to the point where, drawing to the cheekbone and tuned for 5x stretch (4.75x in my case), we are shooting ammo X with flatband Y with taper Z and getting, say, 200 feet per second.
> 
> Then I wonder, what would happen with the same X, Y and Z but doubling the flatband length and releasing from about 2 feet behind my head? Or "Full Butterfly", I think it is called?
> 
> In my case, I might get a neat hole drilled through my head and exiting through my right eye, which is best avoided.
> 
> Or the pouch might remove my safety glasses, my right ear or a bit of my face.
> 
> But apart from all that, what kind of fps could one expect?
> 
> I doubt that I am actually going to try this.


With butterfly shooting, you can use about 1/2 the draw weight to shoot the same speed as a shorter draw.... Half the weight, same impact result...

Makes it easier for many to hold and gain accuracy, plus it's a longer "barrel" to look down while aiming..


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## skropi

Bill Hays said:


> mike160304 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess a lot of us get to the point where, drawing to the cheekbone and tuned for 5x stretch (4.75x in my case), we are shooting ammo X with flatband Y with taper Z and getting, say, 200 feet per second.
> 
> Then I wonder, what would happen with the same X, Y and Z but doubling the flatband length and releasing from about 2 feet behind my head? Or "Full Butterfly", I think it is called?
> 
> In my case, I might get a neat hole drilled through my head and exiting through my right eye, which is best avoided.
> 
> Or the pouch might remove my safety glasses, my right ear or a bit of my face.
> 
> But apart from all that, what kind of fps could one expect?
> 
> I doubt that I am actually going to try this.
> 
> 
> 
> With butterfly shooting, you can use about 1/2 the draw weight to shoot the same speed as a shorter draw.... Half the weight, same impact result...
> Makes it easier for many to hold and gain accuracy, plus it's a longer "barrel" to look down while aiming..
Click to expand...

Yep, now that I shoot with a long draw, I always know why I missed my windage. Its just easier to feel and understand the mistake, and even though it is somewhat harder to become as proficient, as with a fixed draw, the long draw just helps me more to develop as a shooter. 
Not to mention that now that I shoot some....field, can chasing, weed cutting, all at random distances, the power and rhe flatter trajectory really comes in handy.


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## mike160304

Bill Hays said:


> With butterfly shooting, you can use about 1/2 the draw weight to shoot the same speed as a shorter draw.... Half the weight, same impact result...
> 
> Makes it easier for many to hold and gain accuracy, plus it's a longer "barrel" to look down while aiming..


Thanks Bill, good clear explanation.


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## mike160304

I've played with semi-butterfly now and of course the butterfly thing is not for everyone, though I do understand its advantages.

But the result is that I have departed from cheekbone anchor point, which has always felt artificial for me, and gone to floating anchor point with the sling upright not gangsta. The anchor point is around 6" behind my ear, at my maximum natural draw with forearm and upper arm horizontal. (Going towards butterfly, the forearm moves towards the vertical.)

Its my most natural way and I enjoy it. Accuracy and consistency have to be worked on, but I just enjoy the shooting without worrying too much.


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