# Very sore finger



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Heya guys. I've already mentioned that my index finger is very sore from shooting. My thumb also, but not so much. I got no blisters, just a nice thick callous, but from the middle joint till the fingernail, my finger is in pain, very sensitive, and I have a loss of sensation in that length. 
From the beginning of my slingshot carrier I never gave myself time to rest, only one day I didn't shoot much, meaning I shot around 100 shots. 
Has that happened to anyone else? Please don't tell me to stop practicing, isn't there something I can do for it to heal quickly?


----------



## Abenso (Apr 28, 2017)

I don't have time to shoot that much I only get to shoot on weekends. However, do you shoot smooth side out? You could wrap some electrical tape around your finger, or alternatively some sort of rough bandage. You could always teach yourself to shoot ambidextrius!

Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Maybe try a BB setup for a little while - then maybe alternate between days...


----------



## Alfred E.M. (Jul 5, 2014)

*Quickly? Amputation and a prosthesis. * 

*The bigger problem - obsessive shooting can lead to a nervous breakdown, uncontrolled twitching and burn out. * :looney:


----------



## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

Over training in shooting is as unproductive as overtraining in physical conditioning . Your body will start giving you signs and you become stagnant with little to no progress and even negative progress . There is something to be said about moderation in all things .


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

What do you mean obsessive? I wake up, drink coffee, shoot till 14-15:00, rest for an hour, and then shoot till 21-22.00. I call that normal. 
Matt, I will try bandaging my finger tomorrow. Today I stopped early  
Seriously, would some ice help?


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Treefork you are right, I did notice a negative effect in my shooting. Maybe just shoot 50 shots tomorrow and get the rest of the day off?


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Think the latest acceptance is heat and cold have little or no effect... But like the guys say - you need to take it easy. Nerve damage would mean no shooting at all.

BB setups are nice and light - and fun. Nothing like watching them destroy drink cans at 10m. Also if you master them - it would have a beneficial impact on the larger stuff.


----------



## joejeweler (Feb 27, 2018)

Besides taking a short rest for just a few days maybe,...I would recommend taking some Turmeric Curcumin supplements daily with your "grueling" shooting schedule.  It's a natural anti inflammatory for joints and tissues, and helps me immensely with the arthritis in my neck, and pain relief from an achilles tendon injury several years ago. I take 3 or 4 of the capsules I ordered on Amazon (link below) of one of the best versions I've found,....but while you wait to get the order in your local food market will usually have some form of this supplement in stock. If I forget to take mine for a day or two, an uncomfortable stiffness builds in my neck, making me want to "crack" my neck frequently and doesn't last. This "cracking" just aggravates the neck inflammation, and my ankle also has pain if I forget the suppliments.....

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DBTFO98/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Once you get the item in, there is a coupon inside that also allows you to a FREE additional bottle shipped to your door at no cost. This only works once per household, as they verify your purchase on amazon and will only give one promotional bottle per product purchased.

....worth a shot for sure!


----------



## Buckskin Dave (Apr 4, 2018)

Alfred E.M. said:


> *Quickly? Amputation and a prosthesis. *
> 
> *The bigger problem - obsessive shooting can lead to a nervous breakdown, uncontrolled twitching and burn out. * :looney:


Not to mention dandruff, bad credit, no credit and lactose intolerance. anic: :looney:


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

I wonder, am I shooting too much, or am I just sensitive? :/ 
How much do you shoot guys?


----------



## Northerner (Nov 9, 2010)

You need to give that finger nerve some rest. The numbness shouldn't be ignored. As was mentioned, try a BB shooter for a few days. You might be surprised at how well they shoot out to 20 yards. A pop can at 15-20 is a great target and the BBs will penetrate if you get them going 250fps.


----------



## joejeweler (Feb 27, 2018)

skropi said:


> I wonder, am I shooting too much, or am I just sensitive? :/
> How much do you shoot guys?


 It depends on what your definition of "shoot guys" is!  Personally I think that's a quick way to lose your shooting buddies,...er,..better change that to: "shooting 'with' buddies" hehe


----------



## Ordo (Feb 11, 2018)

I warn you skropi. You need to stretch.

There should be a post about stretching for compulsive slingshot shooters.


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

I am a bit compulsive, I admit. Everyday I try to shoot with a corner of the mouth anchor, I shoot like that at least 20-30 shots, and I know I am not going to hit. I always shoot high with such anchor. I do it anyway for testing reasons.


----------



## steelball (Apr 28, 2018)

I am fairly new to this sport but come from an archery background, and the really good archers only shoot quality shots. For me I try to practice with a purpose, today I will practice extended holds on target with a few let down drills to keep me honest.


----------



## Buckskin Dave (Apr 4, 2018)

skropi said:


> I wonder, am I shooting too much, or am I just sensitive? :/
> How much do you shoot guys?


Good question. Near as I can guess I average 100 to 120 shots a day. Some days less, and some days none at all.


----------



## Brook (Mar 4, 2018)

I wouldn’t worry buddy shoot through it, the numbness is because of the callous and the callous has built up to protect your finger this will pass in time leaving you with a new and improved shooting finger


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Mr. Brooks, I love you. You are the only person here that understands me. 
Problem is that my accuracy goes crap because of the pain, so for today I am calling it off, shooting only 4-5 shots occasionally just to try out a new latex I procured.


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Finger shield. It does work, but it's too late, finger is still in pain, I should have used this shield before it got swollen. Oh well.


----------



## Northerner (Nov 9, 2010)

A long distance runner rests when the pain from shin splints start getting bad. A baseball pitcher rests when his elbow tendons get sore. The pain is our warning system that moderates our activities. When we have OCD we often ignore the pain and the problem gets worse.


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

I agree Northerner, that's why today I shot very few shots, and even then, with rest between each shot. I am not pushing it anymore, not untill my tendons and nerves get well.


----------



## SonoftheRepublic (Jul 3, 2011)

I have experienced the very same symptoms you described. And as Northerner said, numbness should not be ignored. When this happened to me, I took a long break from shooting. During that time, when I did shoot, I learned to use my third finger, (instead of index finger), and kept the shooting sessions short.

Give that index finger a good long time out. Doctors Orders!


----------



## Hobbit With A Slingshot (Mar 14, 2017)

You might also look up a diagram of the hand to see where the larger nerves run, to see if you need to adjust where on your fingers you hold the pouch. I had some numbness in my thumb due to where I was holding the ammo, and I'm fairly certain it was on top of one of the two big nerves in the thumb. I adjusted where on my fingers I was holding the pouch, and that solved it. But I did also give it a bit of a rest. Keep in mind though, I'm not a doctor, nor have I taken so much as an anatomy class, so...


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Ok, here's the deal with my finger. Till today it was swollen, and then while shooting I noticed some liquid on it. I got surprised to say the least. Then it was swollen no more! What happened is this. A damned, HUGE blister developed alongside a nice tough callous, and NOT before. Because of the callous there was no way of knowing there was a blister beneath it. So I thought it was just swollen. There was also the twndon/nerve pain. The thing is that when the liquid from the blister finally got out, the pressure it created lessened, and the nerve/tendon pain away it went! Now only a surface pain remains which is normal.
Thank god I am not a weakling, because I was starting to doubt myself. Still I can't shoot comfortably, bit at least I know I am not damaging my hand


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

LOL!!!


----------



## Hobbit With A Slingshot (Mar 14, 2017)

The human body sure is amazing.


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

What is amazing is that the nerve/tendon pain went, but without the protective blister liquid, a normal, excruciating, "normal" pain came  Shooting is a chore, I have to release as soon as possible so as not to scream


----------



## crazymike (May 8, 2011)

Soak it in cider


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

crazymike said:


> Soak it in cider


Will it lessen the pain?


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Oooooook, so, during vacation time I didn't get to shoot much. That means a totally healed finger. Then I come back, and the pain returned.... It was ok for a week, but then I decided to shoot a bit more, and now I sport a nice bruise on my thumb and another one on my index. 
Guys, am I the only one that gets such bruises? I mean, I don't even shoot heavy bands. Is it the problem that I don't take days off shooting? Right now I am gritting my teeth when I shoot, this has to be solved.


----------



## Alfred E.M. (Jul 5, 2014)

*OUCH! No fun. Dr. Alfred says -*

*... this is beyond excessive to the point of injuring yourself. Stop shooting completely for a month, embrace the healing.*

*Practice in your imagination, and shoot without a frame in hand to work on form ... for a month.*

*When you resume, only 10 shots per session, and only five days a week ... bc you're injury vulnerable now. Make them count.*

*Switch to 5/16 (quarter if you can) and light pull elastics like the Chinese, even Bill Hays recently announced a shift in that direction.*

*You reached out, that's all I have. *


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Alfred E.M. said:


> *OUCH! No fun. Dr. Alfred says -*
> 
> *... this is beyond excessive to the point of injuring yourself. Stop shooting completely for a month, embrace the healing.*
> 
> ...


I was thinking of converting to 1/2 butterfly, lighter bands etc... Dammit, no easy and fast solution. 
Thanks Alfred.


----------



## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Don't shoot so many shots at each practiced session. I shoot 50 to 75 . If you shoot to many it's never going to heal. When l shot a lot of rounds everyday my left elbow started hurting really bad to the point I couldn't sleep. Backed off on the amount of rounds at one session and the pain went away. I can shoot 2 to 3 sessions a day as long as I keep the shots to 50 to 75 .

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Cjw said:


> Don't shoot so many shots at each practiced session. I shoot 50 to 75 . If you shoot to many it's never going to heal.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


You are right, but I see how others are shooting 200+ shots daily and they are ok. I guess they didn't start shooting so heavily, so they slowly got used to it. 
So the only option is to get healed up COMPLETELY and take it from the beginning?


----------



## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

I have a friend that had to have finger surgery because of to heavy bands and shooting to much. Did damage to the ligaments in his finger.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Cjw said:


> I have a friend that had to have finger surgery because of to heavy bands and shooting to much. Did damage to the ligaments in his finger.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I understand, but I am not shooting heavy, 10 pounds draw weight approximately. I think that it never healed, and when it was about to, I gave it too much of a workout. It's only the flesh that's injured btw.


----------



## Wignorant (Jun 16, 2018)

Skropi I know this sounds harsh. But it sounds like you are over doing it, like a lot. I only shoot on the weekends, maybe an hour or two tops each, and my shots have nothing but improve. Just my two cents.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

skropi said:


> Cjw said:
> 
> 
> > Don't shoot so many shots at each practiced session. I shoot 50 to 75 . If you shoot to many it's never going to heal.
> ...


Those guys are target shooting using target bands . When I got back into slingshots I was using double layer one inch straight cut natural latex and would shoot 200 shots every day . Needless to say the index finger would get a little sore . I was aggressive like you and didn't want to stop shooting . I then learned to shoot using the middle finger and thumb to give my index finger a break . I shot that way for years and then switched back to index finger and thumb . I down sized my bands to tapered singles and can shoot hundreds of rounds without any problem . You can use the sore finger to make yourself a more versatile shooter by trying different things . Consider even switching hands . It's good training for the shooting computer inside your head .


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

treefork said:


> skropi said:
> 
> 
> > Cjw said:
> ...


I understand, but the draw weight I am shooting is around 4.5kg, isn't this considered light?


----------



## Ordo (Feb 11, 2018)

I'm really sorry to quote my own wife but...:

I TOLD YOU!


----------



## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Learn to shoot with the other han d for awhile.


----------



## MakoPat (Mar 12, 2018)

Ordo said:


> I warn you skropi. You need to stretch.
> There should be a post about stretching for compulsive slingshot shooters.


There is a video and I will look for it.

@Alfred E., I am going to design a prostethic just in case... It is not garanteed I will keep all my appendages considering my hobbies and temperment, despite my extreme attachment to them.
On a serious note... the bb shooter is fun. Maybe a bandage or some type of sleeve til healed.

Well, I did not find it... I have to organize my videos. But I found this.


----------



## Rayshot (Feb 1, 2010)

Li



skropi said:


> treefork said:
> 
> 
> > skropi said:
> ...


Light is relative. Everyone is different. You will be happier if you enjoy the experimenting of different (lighter band sets) to be sure you don't cause permanent damage. You will find your body's happy spot. Listen to it.

When relatively new to slingshots I had to shoot BBs for 3 months because my index finger was over used and I could tell something bad was going to happen if I didn't give it relief. The bb shooting is one of the reasons I started to make magnetic pouches so loading a bb was less fussy.

Basically slingshot shooting is a peculiar stress to the fingers as well as the fingers often not trained to endure the new type of stress.

I think 10 lbs is on the heavy side as we can get all the speed we want for target shooting with less than 10 lbs. Currently I shoot a 10 lbs draw. In spite of all the shooting I have done through the years, the conditioning, it seems my fingers as I get older progressively are needing lighter band sets .


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Thanks all for your support guys. Rayshot, it's not only the index, which is in a not so bad shape, but the thumb is now causing problems. I took two shots after work, with a pouch hold I was thinking about using during work. Two shots, two hits on a 4cm spinner. Took 3 shots with some light bands designed to accommodate a 125cm draw. So, 5 shots in all, and I won't be shooting anymore today. I will wait for my fingers to totally heal, taking a few potshots in the duration, and when I start shooting again for real, I will be shooting less, looking closely for any signs of blisters/bruises etc. 
Oh, Rayshot, I would shoot lighter bands, but I want card cutting ability and I occasionally shoot at 20-25m, so I think it's worth it to try getting used to this draw weight. If worse comes to worse......there's always 7mm bb's and......16mm marbles, which for some reason don't dig into my fingers, so I can shoot them easily, along with hexnuts that are also easy on my fingers.
I am giving 9.5mm another chance though.


----------



## ForkLess (Aug 15, 2018)

Biofreeze, lidocaine rub, you could go with lighter set up. Or just make a bigger frame!  I know I know I am a bad influence. The one you see in my photo I made just for this fact, was shooting very large ammo full butterfly. With..... Yes with my tiny tiny turtle. My hands so sore after a session. So I put my turtle on my hathcock so to speak. I gota make a post on it. Been my favorite Magnum sling since. Happy happy shooting!


----------



## Rayshot (Feb 1, 2010)

skropi said:


> Thanks all for your support guys. Rayshot, it's not only the index, which is in a not so bad shape, but the thumb is now causing problems. I took two shots after work, with a pouch hold I was thinking about using during work. Two shots, two hits on a 4cm spinner. Took 3 shots with some light bands designed to accommodate a 125cm draw. So, 5 shots in all, and I won't be shooting anymore today. I will wait for my fingers to totally heal, taking a few potshots in the duration, and when I start shooting again for real, I will be shooting less, looking closely for any signs of blisters/bruises etc.
> Oh, Rayshot, I would shoot lighter bands, but I want card cutting ability and I occasionally shoot at 20-25m, so I think it's worth it to try getting used to this draw weight. If worse comes to worse......there's always 7mm bb's and......16mm marbles, which for some reason don't dig into my fingers, so I can shoot them easily, along with hexnuts that are also easy on my fingers.
> I am giving 9.5mm another chance though.


Keep in mind shooting bbs and light bands, if they don't aggravate the fingers are very very good for improving your shooting accuracy. They really helped my accuracy for when I could go back to using a heavier band set. 3 months of just BB shooting. BB shooting requires a more sensitive pouch release which is good for the mind /body communication. I feel it really helps improving the release of the pouch.


----------



## ForkLess (Aug 15, 2018)

MakoPat said:


> Ordo said:
> 
> 
> > I warn you skropi. You need to stretch.
> ...


 no need to design a prosthetic, just buy a Wrist Rocket. ;-)


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

I have a related question to my damaged fingers. When you guys draw and hold the pouch, do you feel the pouch with your fingers holding it? Or you have a reduced sensation because of possible callouses? 
Personally I don't feel it much, and have some difficulty judging if I tweak a bit or not, is this normal?
I am not shooting much now btw, just asking ????


----------



## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

I do not have callouses on my fingers but certainly do not shoot as many rounds as you do. I've discovered that I actually shoot better when I shoot fewer shots instead of more. I now only shoot around 25-50 shots at a time if that many at times. But I am shooting more often and finding that my initial shots are not missing the mark. In other words, sometimes when I begin shooting my first half dozen shots are dead on then I tend to start missing shots. I found the same when I shot handguns. I was always good for the first 25 or so rounds then my shots began to fall out of the X circle. Yes, I think shooting can be overdone.


----------



## Alfred E.M. (Jul 5, 2014)

*My accuracy fades about when the pinch digits begin to sting, so the session is over. My finger tissue is thinning bc of high mileage, but even the most ham handed younger shooter still doesn't have a lot of hard tissue in the pinchers unless they're calloused. I don't shoot enough for that but some do.*

*We squeeze the sides of a leather sheathed steel ball hard enough to prevent release ... over & over ... pouch clad steel vs. tissue & bone ... darn right it gets sore, unless the nerves are deadened. I'm learning when to give it a rest.*


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Alfred E.M. said:


> *My accuracy fades about when the pinch digits begin to sting, so the session is over. My finger tissue is thinning bc of high mileage, but even the most ham handed younger shooter still doesn't have a lot of hard tissue in the pinchers unless they're calloused. I don't shoot enough for that but some do.*
> 
> *We squeeze the sides of a leather sheathed steel ball hard enough to prevent release ... over & over ... pouch clad steel vs. tissue & bone ... darn right it gets sore, unless the nerves are deadened. I'm learning when to give it a rest.*


You convinced me....we can't let this leather clad steel win over flesh and bone, blood and sinew! I will shoot till steel gives up.
I do have a nice callous on my index finger, but it's a bit sensitive underneath, I overdid it after vacation. The thumb still develops a callous, so it's a bit more in pain. 
These days I shoot too little, just enough to keep in touch, three shots now, another three after 20 minutes, and I am nailing the 3cm spinner, but I am conscious my drawing in a manner that allows for minimal tweak, as my fingers do not have much feel now, so I have to actively pay attention to every single detail or its a miss to the right.
Oh, another thing that helped....I put a plastic 16mm ball as a target in my catch box... The 3cm spinner looks huge now! Don't ask me if I hit the 16mm one. It's there for psychological reasons.


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Yeah well, I jinxed it, just hit the 16mm ball. Today will be spent building frames, easier on the fingers


----------



## ForkLess (Aug 15, 2018)

skropi said:


> I have a related question to my damaged fingers. When you guys draw and hold the pouch, do you feel the pouch with your fingers holding it? Or you have a reduced sensation because of possible callouses?
> Personally I don't feel it much, and have some difficulty judging if I tweak a bit or not, is this normal?
> I am not shooting much now btw, just asking


 no does not really hurt the fingers, but do have arthritis and hexnuts are much easyer on fingers then round balls.


----------



## ash (Apr 23, 2013)

I've been getting "Skropi Finger" lately from a lot of anchored target shooting. I used to shoot semi butterfly and not hold at full tension for so long, but the time spent aiming and placing the ammo/pouch in exactly the same spot every time seems to be doing damage. I made my goal of 12/12 on a 60mm spinner today, so I'm retiring the overloaded index finger and learning butterfly with the middle finger taking the load. Shooting myself in the cheek is my new problem...


----------



## Northerner (Nov 9, 2010)

Yup, "Skropi Finger" got me too. I shoot far too much during my 6 weeks of vacation this summer and my index finger went numb for a while. The wrist on my frame hand has also been giving me grief since June. All the frame flipping seems to have caused tendinitis. It's hard not to shoot less when it's so much fun.


----------



## nike (Oct 26, 2013)

shooting too much，I think :violin:step by step


----------



## Alfred E.M. (Jul 5, 2014)

*Another thing to watch - I hold in my left hand and the left elbow sometimes whispers about being locked and pulled against. Wrist braces or starships aren't the best solution for me - the lightest viable elastic does the most to relieve these symptoms. Light draw weight, small ammo, and reasonable shot count allow me to continue. *


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

I see we have a new term.....the Skropi Finger ????
Today I shot at most 10 shots, hit the 16mm twice in a row, so I had the incentive to stop early, no way to repeat that easily lol. 
Spent more time building to give me some time to heal. Smart move, can't shoot? So what, we can always build!


----------



## Alfred E.M. (Jul 5, 2014)

*The correct medical term is 'Stage One Skropi Digititus'. Stage 4 and 5 is when it metastasizes to the mind and is incurable. *


----------



## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Alfred it is clear you have been mentored by the TWACK.


----------



## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

And now i have developed skropi fingers too. Good read tho. Half my indexfinger from the dipp knokle to the tip is numb. Nerve pain flares when ever i grip something. Sure its not contagious?


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Ubamajuba said:


> And now i have developed skropi fingers too. Good read tho. Half my indexfinger from the dipp knokle to the tip is numb. Nerve pain flares when ever i grip something. Sure its not contagious?


Too much shooting does take its toll! Having proper rest days is essential. When I need to rest I only shoot 30-50 shots, just to keep in touch with my technique!


----------



## MOJAVE MO (Apr 11, 2018)

I just returned from the Doctor and he is certain that I have a mild case of 'Skropi Shoulder'. He said it could be either overuse or underuse. He'll let me know when my blood test comes back.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Pebble Shooter (Mar 29, 2014)

Scropi, I have had the loss of sensitivity-issue in the index finger you described, and have:

- Reduced my use of bands with strong draw weights. I now use "Precise" yellow 0.55" for target shooting, as opposed to "Precise" red 0.7 used previously;

- Kept the number of shots to roughly 50 per day;

- Shifted my ammo pinch from being over the actual finger joint (finger nerve transition point) to the central section of the finger tip itself. This has in fact resulted in higher accuracy, quite interesting. Only bands with lighter draw weights make this possible;

The thumb and index finger have grown thicker skin where pouch to skin friction is highest: this is perfectly normal, and also helps to protect these fingers.

*Bottom line: don't overdo it,* because you may risk some more long-term harm (crushed nerve issue, loss of sensitivity) that could stop you from shooting slingshots altogether. It's not worth it (in my opinion). :hmm:


----------



## SJAaz (Apr 30, 2019)

Skropi...

I have the same problem. I now have a hard spot between the first two joints of my pointer and numbness in my thumb. Most of the pain is gone, but if I shoot 30 or so shots, it comes creeping back. Tried deep rub. (a topical pain killer for old duffers). Made my grip feel greasy, maybe apply it an hour early. If I had to offer advice, I'd say shoot as light of bands as you can get away with for a while and make you session shorter than normal. I know that you are not going to give it up, so just try to treat yourself a little kinder. After 3/4 of a century of dealing with various aches and pains, this is the best advice that I can offer.


----------



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Guys, I no longer suffer from the Skropi finger. I stopped shooting for a few months, when I took up archery, and now I shoot light bands 3/4 butterfly, so no Skropi finger anymore ????


----------



## Ubamajuba (Jun 16, 2019)

Im wondering if i managed to do permanent damage to the nerve in my index finger. there is no improvement to register. Last weekend i managed to fall face first, tripping over a bump in the tarmack. Caught my self and sprained both wrists. Lucky me, i didnt brake any bones, but it didnt do any good for my skropi-condidtion either! :imslow:


----------

