# Instinctive Shooting



## zille

Hi folks,

can somebody explain the feeling of instinctive shooting? Cause I think, I just got the hang of it without changing anything...I shoot a "three quarters" butterfly like: drawing holding for a splitsecond and then shooting...without any aiming...I just had a series of 5 shots 5 hits...indoors 6m distance, 5*5 cm target...cant explain it to myself and I'm afraid to lose it...is there a way to conciously shoot out of instinct? (I know it's a paradox...)


----------



## philly

For me it is all a out concentration on a small spot on my target. I have my sling at waist level, look at the target, focus on a small spot, bring my sling up and draw to my anchor point . Left holding arm fully extended and locked. I never conciously look at the forks, always staring at that small spot. My brain just tells me when to release, usually within 2 or 3 seconds .For me the mechanics must be the same every time. Grip, pouch hold, arm position, anchor point, stance amd release. I worked on that for a couple weels not worrying about how many hits I had. The accuracy came in time. I am still a long way fro wher I want to be but if I stay with consistent mechanics i do well . My biggest problem is that I have a bunch of very good slings and change often, but, thats where the fun comes in for me. Hard to explain but when you are in the zone , magic happens.
Philly


----------



## SlingMan

Jaybird or Frogman could probably shed some light on this subject.


----------



## northern lights

I,m a longbow an recurve shooter just started playing with slingshots I think i,m doing pretty good for just starting out shooting a sling is a lot like shooting a bow instinctive . pull pouch to anchor point burn a hole in the spot you want to hit an release. I pull to the corner of mouth touching the same spot every time. With alot of practice you raise your hand when you move back to longer distances. It,s gets instinctive.


----------



## Rayshot

northern lights said:


> I,m a longbow an recurve shooter just started playing with slingshots I think i,m doing pretty good for just starting out shooting a sling is a lot like shooting a bow instinctive . pull pouch to anchor point burn a hole in the spot you want to hit an release. I pull to the corner of mouth touching the same spot every time. With a lot of practice you raise your hand when you move back to longer distances. It,s gets instinctive.


It appears the ones that shoot the bow instinctively do well rapidly with slingshots, in general. In fact a buddy of mine come over and I introduced him to slingshots. Perhaps I should say reacquainted him to slingshots. He toyed with one as a kid. He is mid to late 50's, though he shot bow instinctively as an adult. He took right to instinctive shooting with the slingshot and was doing well.


----------



## Jaybird

Everyone calls it instinctive shooting but it is not an instinct.It is hand eye co-ordination.We all have the abilty to shoot like that,but it has to be developed.It is the same principal as a baseball,football,basketball player hit there target.Some people can do it well,others can't.It takes a lot of practice and dedication to do well.When you get on to it you can improve your shooting without actually shooting.Some day when it is raining and you can't shoot sit back and visualize shooting your slingshot.Sounds crazy but it works.


----------



## HOE

Jaybird said:


> Everyone calls it instinctive shooting but it is not an instinct.It is hand eye co-ordination.We all have the abilty to shoot like that,but it has to be developed.It is the same principal as a baseball,football,basketball player hit there target.Some people can do it well,others can't.It takes a lot of practice and dedication to do well.When you get on to it you can improve your shooting without actually shooting.Some day when it is raining and you can't shoot sit back and visualize shooting your slingshot.Sounds crazy but it works.


There is a video that teaches meditation for martial arts, what you do there is meditate on an attacker throwing punches at you and you visualize yourself blocking and evading all the strikes. So, I guess that applies to shooting arts too!


----------



## frogman

Hand and eye coordination is instinctive. When you stand outside and see a pine cone way up in the tree, point at the pine cone, and then draw an imaginary line from your eye to your finger and the pinecone. Now you have THREE points of reference. Imagine (descern) that the line you draw is the right line to make the hit. Then go do the same thing with your sling. The topic is way too involve to solve it for everyone. This is just one skill I was taught as a young man while going through a training course in the SEAL Teams. Remmeber point the finger at the target and then draw the line..................


----------



## GreyOwl

...draw the line through the target too...


----------



## torsten

Zille,

Jaybird und frogman haben, soweit ich sie denn richtig verstanden habe, schon alles wesentliche gesagt.
Mir hat es außerdem sehr geholfen, draußen auf unterschiedlichste Ziele, möglichst klein - sehr dünne Äste, Bucheckern...), zu schießen. Die hängen natürlich meistens in unterschiedlichen Entfernungen und Höhen von dir aus gesehen rum. Dadurch bekommt man aber langsam ein Gefühl für`s Schießen. Und lernt auch einzuschätzen, wie die Flugbahn unterschiedlicher Munitionsgewichte und Bandstärken korrelieren.

Also: VIEL!! üben auf unregelmäßig platzierte, sehr kleine Ziele. Dann kommt irgendwann das Gefühl dafür . Darum dreht sich bei mir eigentlich alles!

Gruß


----------



## Melchior

That's it, Torsten! Training, Training, Training.....you start to develop a feel for the slingshot after a while.


----------



## Jaybird

Torsten
I'm sorry,I don't understand German well enough to fully understand your reply.


----------



## SlingMan

Jaybird said:


> Torsten
> I'm sorry,I don't understand German well enough to fully understand your reply.


I agree with Jaybird here. How about an English translation? Please!


----------



## torsten

I mean it is important to get a feeling for this kind of shooting. And the way someone becomes this feeling is practice, practice and more practice........., on different small targets at different distances and different heights.
After months or years this shooting style becomes something like a natural thing for you.
Thats it in my poor English...

Zille is from Germany, so I decided to answer him in our native language. And becourse I´m often not sure if I will get my points exactly in English.


----------



## Jaybird

Torsten
You did a good job in English.Thank you.


----------



## torsten

Jaybird, thank YOU!

Regards


----------



## hawk2009

HOE said:


> Everyone calls it instinctive shooting but it is not an instinct.It is hand eye co-ordination.We all have the abilty to shoot like that,but it has to be developed.It is the same principal as a baseball,football,basketball player hit there target.Some people can do it well,others can't.It takes a lot of practice and dedication to do well.When you get on to it you can improve your shooting without actually shooting.Some day when it is raining and you can't shoot sit back and visualize shooting your slingshot.Sounds crazy but it works.


There is a video that teaches meditation for martial arts, what you do there is meditate on an attacker throwing punches at you and you visualize yourself blocking and evading all the strikes. So, I guess that applies to shooting arts too!








[/quote]
Yes we used to do that in our martial arts I also used to do this in snooker and pool visualizing works very well I swear by it.


----------



## crazyslingshot

Practice ,practice....and you will delevop the muscle memory of aiming which is instictive shooting.

Specifically, you sense the target by two hands,imaging the stretched band is a long rifle, point it to the

target rather than aiming.


----------



## crazyslingshot

In my opinion, the solid compact slingshot is necessary for a fast instictive shooting.

It makes no sense to take or practise the instinctive shooting with ,no mean to offend, the wisrt-brace Trumark slingshot and other bulky slings.


----------



## Melchior

Why not? Whatever fits your hand and pocket works


----------



## NaturalFork

I still say that if it is "instinctive" then you should be able to do it blindfolded. Everybody aims


----------



## Hugues

To me, it's all just about my will to hit the target...I mean I try and focus all my attention on the target taking no care of any posture or position, weapon or any means I use, kind of "I'll hit you anyway". It's all in your mind and very difficult to explain in just "words".
Instinctive shooting has a lot to link to the thought: "All I really know is what remains on my mind after I have forgotten everything" or something like that.
At the very moment you shoot, you know you got it already, a weird mixed feeling of powerful certitude and fear to miss your goal...
I call this "a moment of grace", this split of a second when all your energies are focused on a tiny spot so all your brain and body are giving out the best of themselves just in order to hit the exact center of a right eye's fly...and you make it!
I never try to aim and point my catty in a "precision mood", this i'll keep for more "evolved " weapons, but I do still think nothing can beat a slingshot when it comes to "instinct shooting" pleasure!
Rufus Hussey's way rules still in my own and deep opinion.


----------



## zille

Hallo Torsten,
vielen Dank für die Tipps, die mir umso wertvoller erscheinen, da du ein Ausnahmeschütze bist. Ich übe sowieso jeden Tag auch wenns in Berlin nicht ganz leicht ist, meistens bleibts beim Indoor-Schießen, ich will ja niemanden in Gefahr bringen. Aber der nächste Sommer kommt bestimmt!








Ich habe jetzt ein wenig mit verschiedenen Bandstärken und -Längen experimentiert und festgestellt, dass sich nach jeder Veränderung eine neue Lernkurve einstellt also hast du Recht, üben üben üben...









Grüße und vielen Dank!

Hi Torsten,

thanks for the hints. They're especially appreciated coming from a talented shooter like yourself. I'm already training every day, although it's kinda hard in a city like Berlin. I don't want to hurt anybody so I rather stay inside for my practice. But there will be another summer for sure!








I tried different bandwiths and-lengths and came to the conclusion that after each change there's another learning curve to conquer. So I guess you're right it's all about practice, practice, practice...

Cheers and thanks!

Edit: Btw. Thanks to everyone else, the "draw an invisible line" idea is another approach I will try to master...I think it should be possible to differ between "instinctive mode" and "aiming mode".



torsten said:


> Zille,
> 
> Jaybird und frogman haben, soweit ich sie denn richtig verstanden habe, schon alles wesentliche gesagt.
> Mir hat es außerdem sehr geholfen, draußen auf unterschiedlichste Ziele, möglichst klein - sehr dünne Äste, Bucheckern...), zu schießen. Die hängen natürlich meistens in unterschiedlichen Entfernungen und Höhen von dir aus gesehen rum. Dadurch bekommt man aber langsam ein Gefühl für`s Schießen. Und lernt auch einzuschätzen, wie die Flugbahn unterschiedlicher Munitionsgewichte und Bandstärken korrelieren.
> 
> Also: VIEL!! üben auf unregelmäßig platzierte, sehr kleine Ziele. Dann kommt irgendwann das Gefühl dafür . Darum dreht sich bei mir eigentlich alles!
> 
> Gruß


----------



## Jaybird

Recurvemaster
How does a quarterback aim a football??


----------



## Dayhiker

Jaybird: Exactly! Best thing I've seen yet to describe the indescribable.


----------



## dgui

Can someone demonstraight how to shoot an aspirin out of mid air ???


----------



## northern lights

In archery there is two basic types of shooting instinctive or gap shooting Instinctive shooting all your focus is on the target not the arrow or forks. in gap shooting you look at your arrow tip or fork more then the target. the target will fussy cause you aiming more with arrow or fork. Both work well some shoot both ways.


----------



## Northerner

The "Instinctive Shooting" topic has often been a hot topic in the archery circles. The arguements can go on forever.

This online definition for instinctive shooting is interesting:

"By continuously practicing with a weapon, a shooter can develop a subconscious coordination between their eyes, hands, and brain, utilizing a natural human sense known as Proprioception to aid in the proper and accurate use of a ranged weapon to the point that they can fire said weapon on 'instinct'."

Cheers,
Northerner


----------



## HOE

Just like throwing weapons, you can't aim a throw, yet you can throw quite accurately with practice.


----------



## Devoman

Not that I am an expert by any means or a good shot but as a boy, we would rove around the woods and fields and challenge one another to hit something first after it was called out. As I got older and into archery we did the same thing, roving in the woods with spring tips on our arrows. The trick was to keep the arrow as close to the hand as possible then just raise our hand to the target (tilted), look down the arrow and shoot. This may explain why I like low fork tips on my slingshots and shoot" gangster" today. As pointed out already, practice is key! 
For those of you who like to read, there is an interesting book on this topic called "Instinctive Shooting" by G. Fred Asbell ISBN # 936531-0503 It is about Archery but many of the principles apply
A very interesting topic!


----------



## bunnybuster

I started shooting bow instinctively as a kid. (and slingshots).
Hand eye coordination is essential.
But I think also an important factor is knowing the trajectory of the bow or slingshot at the different distances. Practicing with one particular slingshot is probably the best way to learn instinctive. The same anchor point every time is essential, as is using the same
projectile every shot.
I`m certainly no expert shooter, but that is how I learned to shoot. 
Instinctive shooting allows for a fast shot. When hunting varmints, sometimes you dont have time to aim and calculate distance. It can mean the difference between meat in the pot...or going hungry.


----------



## THWACK!

Jaybird said:


> Everyone calls it instinctive shooting but it is not an instinct.It is hand eye co-ordination.We all have the abilty to shoot like that,but it has to be developed.It is the same principal as a baseball,football,basketball player hit there target.Some people can do it well,others can't.It takes a lot of practice and dedication to do well.When you get on to it you can improve your shooting without actually shooting.Some day when it is raining and you can't shoot sit back and visualize shooting your slingshot.Sounds crazy but it works.


Byron Ferguson: "Follow the Arrow" (by practice, learn the trajectories)

Best2u,
Mike


----------



## THWACK!

Melchior said:


> Why not? Whatever fits your hand and pocket works


Agreed.

Best2u,
Mike


----------



## THWACK!

Hugues said:


> To me, it's all just about my will to hit the target...I mean I try and focus all my attention on the target taking no care of any posture or position, weapon or any means I use, kind of "I'll hit you anyway". It's all in your mind and very difficult to explain in just "words".
> Instinctive shooting has a lot to link to the thought: "All I really know is what remains on my mind after I have forgotten everything" or something like that.
> At the very moment you shoot, you know you got it already, a weird mixed feeling of powerful certitude and fear to miss your goal...
> I call this "a moment of grace", this split of a second when all your energies are focused on a tiny spot so all your brain and body are giving out the best of themselves just in order to hit the exact center of a right eye's fly...and you make it!
> I never try to aim and point my catty in a "precision mood", this i'll keep for more "evolved " weapons, but I do still think nothing can beat a slingshot when it comes to "instinct shooting" pleasure!
> Rufus Hussey's way rules still in my own and deep opinion.


Can't ignore the fact that Rufus put meat on the table (and, apparently in his belly) with his "aimless" shooting. He said that he doesn't aim, but actually he's doing it subconciously following much practice. He's mastered the art of memorizing trajectories through trial and error plus constant practice. But again, I submit that instinctive shooting is evolved from conscious attempts at putting your slingshot in the right place for the trajectory, which eventually leads us to believe we're shooting "instinctively". So it all starts with what most folks call "aiming", then thru repetition and trajectory familiarity seems to become "instinctive", because you've gotten past the point of needing to conciously "aim".

If one believes only in instinctive shooting, he should try this: Have a light shining on you target so that you can see the target. Have no light on your slingshot(or otherwise block the view of your slingshot),then fire away at the target. Good luck!!

Lesson: you must see your slingshot in relation to the target to hit the target- and that's called "aiming"!

Best2u,
Mike


----------



## THWACK!

RecurveMaster said:


> I still say that if it is "instinctive" then you should be able to do it blindfolded. Everybody aims


Almost totally agreed (see my drawn-out answer in response to Hugues)-

Put light on target to see target, block light from seeing slingshot or otherwise block your view of the slingshot, then fire away. Good luck!

You won't hit the target because you are not lining up your slingshot, as a reference, with the target. "Recurve" and I agree, seeing your slingshot in relation to your target is called "aiming".

Best2u,
Mike


----------



## bbshooter

THWACK! said:


> To me, it's all just about my will to hit the target...I mean I try and focus all my attention on the target taking no care of any posture or position, weapon or any means I use, kind of "I'll hit you anyway". It's all in your mind and very difficult to explain in just "words".
> Instinctive shooting has a lot to link to the thought: "All I really know is what remains on my mind after I have forgotten everything" or something like that.
> At the very moment you shoot, you know you got it already, a weird mixed feeling of powerful certitude and fear to miss your goal...
> I call this "a moment of grace", this split of a second when all your energies are focused on a tiny spot so all your brain and body are giving out the best of themselves just in order to hit the exact center of a right eye's fly...and you make it!
> I never try to aim and point my catty in a "precision mood", this i'll keep for more "evolved " weapons, but I do still think nothing can beat a slingshot when it comes to "instinct shooting" pleasure!
> Rufus Hussey's way rules still in my own and deep opinion.


Can't ignore the fact that Rufus put meat on the table (and, apparently in his belly) with his "aimless" shooting. He said that he doesn't aim, but actually he's doing it subconciously following much practice. He's mastered the art of memorizing trajectories through trial and error plus constant practice. But again, I submit that instinctive shooting is evolved from conscious attempts at putting your slingshot in the right place for the trajectory, which eventually leads us to believe we're shooting "instinctively". So it all starts with what most folks call "aiming", then thru repetition and trajectory familiarity seems to become "instinctive", because you've gotten past the point of needing to conciously "aim".

If one believes only in instinctive shooting, he should try this: Have a light shining on you target so that you can see the target. Have no light on your slingshot(or otherwise block the view of your slingshot),then fire away at the target. Good luck!!

Lesson: you must see your slingshot in relation to the target to hit the target- and that's called "aiming"!

Best2u,
Mike
[/quote]

I agree with THWACK! on this one. After watching the Rufus Hussey video's many times, it seems to me that he uses a 'near the shoulder' pouch anchor point and then lets the fork float to the relative aiming position of what he wants to hit. Everything is happening so fast, it appears he is not aiming, but in my opinion, he is.


----------



## THWACK!

bbshooter said:


> To me, it's all just about my will to hit the target...I mean I try and focus all my attention on the target taking no care of any posture or position, weapon or any means I use, kind of "I'll hit you anyway". It's all in your mind and very difficult to explain in just "words".
> Instinctive shooting has a lot to link to the thought: "All I really know is what remains on my mind after I have forgotten everything" or something like that.
> At the very moment you shoot, you know you got it already, a weird mixed feeling of powerful certitude and fear to miss your goal...
> I call this "a moment of grace", this split of a second when all your energies are focused on a tiny spot so all your brain and body are giving out the best of themselves just in order to hit the exact center of a right eye's fly...and you make it!
> I never try to aim and point my catty in a "precision mood", this i'll keep for more "evolved " weapons, but I do still think nothing can beat a slingshot when it comes to "instinct shooting" pleasure!
> Rufus Hussey's way rules still in my own and deep opinion.


Can't ignore the fact that Rufus put meat on the table (and, apparently in his belly) with his "aimless" shooting. He said that he doesn't aim, but actually he's doing it subconciously following much practice. He's mastered the art of memorizing trajectories through trial and error plus constant practice. But again, I submit that instinctive shooting is evolved from conscious attempts at putting your slingshot in the right place for the trajectory, which eventually leads us to believe we're shooting "instinctively". So it all starts with what most folks call "aiming", then thru repetition and trajectory familiarity seems to become "instinctive", because you've gotten past the point of needing to conciously "aim".

If one believes only in instinctive shooting, he should try this: Have a light shining on you target so that you can see the target. Have no light on your slingshot(or otherwise block the view of your slingshot),then fire away at the target. Good luck!!

Lesson: you must see your slingshot in relation to the target to hit the target- and that's called "aiming"!

Best2u,
Mike
[/quote]

I agree with THWACK! on this one. After watching the Rufus Hussey video's many times, it seems to me that he uses a 'near the shoulder' pouch anchor point and then lets the fork float to the relative aiming position of what he wants to hit. Everything is happening so fast, it appears he is not aiming, but in my opinion, he is.
[/quote]

"You da man!", BBShooter.

Best2u,
Mike


----------



## Jaybird

We experimented in the club house.Turned all the lights out and set a lighted candle for a target.You could not see your bow,only the target.The hand eye co-ordination shooters did well.The sight shooters did not do well.In true instinctive shooting you concentrate on your target,come to anchor,and when it feels good shoot.It dosn't matter if it is dark or not.You are not looking at the slingshot or bow.It takes a lot more practice to shoot well instinctive than to shoot well using some type of sighting system.Most people get disgusted with not hitting as good as they want to when learning to instinctive shoot,takes time and more practice,and change to some kind of sight shooting.That is why there are not that many instinctive shooters at the tournaments.I belive Tex and Blue will verify this.


----------



## bunnybuster

Jaybird said:


> We experimented in the club house.Turned all the lights out and set a lighted candle for a target.You could not see your bow,only the target.The hand eye co-ordination shooters did well.The sight shooters did not do well.In true instinctive shooting you concentrate on your target,come to anchor,and when it feels good shoot.It dosn't matter if it is dark or not.You are not looking at the slingshot or bow.It takes a lot more practice to shoot well instinctive than to shoot well using some type of sighting system.Most people get disgusted with not hitting as good as they want to when learning to instinctive shoot,takes time and more practice,and change to some kind of sight shooting.That is why there are not that many instinctive shooters at the tournaments.I belive Tex and Blue will verify this.


Absolutely right Jay.


----------



## M.J

crazyslingshot said:


> In my opinion, the solid compact slingshot is necessary for a fast instictive shooting.
> 
> It makes no sense to take or practise the instinctive shooting with ,no mean to offend, the wisrt-brace Trumark slingshot and other bulky slings.


As a Trumark FS1 shooter I would agree with this. You don't get the "slingshot as an extension of the arm" feeling out of a wrist rocket that you get from a smaller fingers on the fork kind of sling.
However...
Shooting instinctive doesn't necessarily make you cooler than someone who aims. A well designed wrist rocket (which the fs1 is, weather you think it looks like a toy or not) takes out alot of variables and makes repeatibility that much easier. Put the target between the forks, pull to your ear and release. Works purt' near every time. A hanging coke can or a target sheet or a rat doesn't care how you are shooting.


----------



## Hugues

Hi, guys!

I try not to look at my catty, just focus on the target the way I used to do with with handguns: I practised shooting from the waist a lot and for years at short distances from 3 to 9 meters and got to a point I rarely missed the target, a bottle shaped silhouette or a human shaped one of about fourty by seventy centimeters.
Nothing like "looking cool" or anything (I have nothing to "sell" to anyone) just the way I like it: as fast and as free from any thought as I can but the will of hitting the target by any means with the weapon I hold.
My results are terrible for now both at throwing knives and using a slingshot, I admit it's still a handful of anything...projectiles go all over the place (making me a very dangerous man







).
But I am a very persevering bastard!

I had the impression that Rufus just didnt have a single glance at his slingshot, so I thought his shooting was purely instinctive.
Well you could also say that shooting from the waist with a pistol is just another way of "aiming" in the sense you body and brain have to memorise a lot of arm, wrist, shoulder angles and relative positions, just a practise of shooting without using your eyes but to spot the target. Kind of building an alternate aiming system corresponding in all points to the alignment of back and foresights adjusted by the eye.
Sure anyone ducking behind me shooting from the waist will notice that the sights will be aligned , pointing to a certain spot of my target at the exact moment I'll pull the trigger, no doubt!
The only question is: should call this "aiming or not?

In a pure rhetorical way, are you sure that "aimed " and "instinctive" shooting are exact antonyms?

Mike said:
_"If one believes only in instinctive shooting, he should try this: Have a light shining on you target so that you can see the target. Have no light on your slingshot(or otherwise block the view of your slingshot),then fire away at the target. Good luck!!"_

It works, Mike!... and has less to see with luck than training.
Some "practical" shooters and I have imagined such an fiendish althought enthralling game. At first some of us were convinced it'd take years to achieve this:
Complete darkness, Two shooters, two different calibers, four or five targets at different distances (five to fifteen meters, let's say), behind stays "the enemy" armed with a maglite: he "shoots"his beams at the different targets, not randomly at all but develops a strategy by lightening the scene playing with "on/off" time in order to drive the shooters mad.EVILISH!.
You'd be amazed how fast your brain can adapt to new situations, Thwack!

As a commando combat shooting exercise, we had this brain smashing exercise: run half a mile as fast as you can to the shooting zone, stop make 20 push ups at full speed, get up and turn on yourself 10 times eyes closed pick your gun and try to shoot at a full size body silhouette at 10 meters at order ("NOW!").
Adrenaline flowing "full blast".

Actually my definition would be: "instinct is what naturally takes place of your paralysed intellect turned useless".

_"Lesson: you must see your slingshot in relation to the target to hit the target- and that's called "aiming"! "_

If I got you right, when someone attacks me, frontally, in surprise and I throw hastily my fist at his (most probably ugly







) face I'am "aiming"...but if he attacks from behind and gets my right elbow up in his right cheek or temple... I just act "instinctively"?
Excuse me for beeing a dim sod, but I feel a bit confused when it comes to such a degree of subtlety (no " persiflage", I sincerely don't understand your vision).

Been shooting in very dark situations too, and must admit that I somehow actually aimed my gun to a spot I felt was the target.

Not trying to argue, I swear it, I'djust like to share your refined opinion on this subject so I can understand what all these people through the world call exactly "instinctive shooting", has anyone a clearer definition please?

Oh, yeah, and grant me to recognise my disability by beeing a french speaker.

I do "feel" Frogman is right saying: _"Hand and eye coordination is instinctive"
_
Thanks for reading.


----------



## HOE

When I play with my micro-mini speargun, I shoot from my waist level and it still hits the target lots of time at 5 metres. With slingshots, I'm still practising...


----------



## GreyOwl

Is love an instinctive feeling?
I'm kidding...


----------



## SlingMan

It's been my understanding that instinctive can't be trained, hand-eye can.

If you can train to become better at something, it's not instinctive.

This is why I believe hand-eye is the correct term for this style of shooting.

I took some courses from Ernest Emerson on Edged Weapons and he really
explained this well.

Not trying to debate here, just throwing in my 2 cents.


----------



## whipcrackdeadbunny

I've been trying to shoot from the hip ... it has potential, I feel.


----------



## whipcrackdeadbunny

The definition of instinct (which I think is most appropriate) according to the OED: Unconcious skill. (second definition, part b. Of the Shorter OED cir. 2007) Does not have to be, natural. It may be gained. Let's not play around with local interpretations,shall we?


----------



## zille

Tearing apart the meaning of instinctive could seem a bit nitpicky. I think there have been a lot of good explanations so far and i tend to believe that it all comes down to a whole lot of practice.


----------



## SlingMan

zille said:


> Tearing apart the meaning of instinctive could seem a bit nitpicky. I think there have been a lot of good explanations so far and i tend to believe that it all comes down to a whole lot of practice.


You don't practice an instinctive movement.

For example, one honestly does not know he's about to lay his hand
on a hot stove top and when his hand touches the hot stove top, he instinctively
jerks his hand away. This is instinctive. You can't practice the instinctive.

Gasp reflex is another example. Try jumping butt naked into ice water and not gasp.
It's instinctive. It WILL happen! You can't train it to not happen.

Anything to the contrary and you're just wanted to argue and debate.

If you can train it, it's not instinctive.

Pretty simple if you ask me.


----------



## zille

Ok my bad, we should rephrase the whole thing to "non-aimed-subconciously-calculated-shooting" or nascs for short. Nifty.








In general you're absolutely right, you can't train an instinct. But you should be able to get your nascs to a decent level by training, shouldn't you?


----------



## Northerner

Hi SlingMan,

This topic is an open door for a very lengthy debate. The archers have locked horns on this topic many times and there never seems to be a comfortable ending.

The popular definition for "instinctive" is exactly as you describe. Some people will also point out an animals natural instincts. The gift is wired into an animal at birth. Even kittens seem to know how to stalk a small bird.

The term "instinctive shooting" seems to have developed for a system we learn from practice. For some people, the name seems to be conflicting. Those who follow this school will say that a true "instinctive shooter" will pick up a bow or slingshot and automatically have the gift without a need for past practice. Other shooters will follow the definition that seems to have been created for shooting sports. Wiki has a reasonable summary for "instinctive shooting" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinctive_aiming

It is what it is. The title of the shooting method may seem conflicting but that's what it's known as.







Maybe it should be called "target focus" or "subconscious coordination shooting" or something like that.









Cheers,
Northerner


----------



## Jaybird

Northerner
There is a name for it hand eye co-ordination.
I think everyone should shoot the way they shoot best and don't worry what it is called.Some people don't know the differance between hand eye co-ordination shooting and sight shooting and no matter what you tell them they will not understand the differance.For most people sight shooting is best for known distance targets and hand eye co-ordination is better for unknown distances.To get good at shooting you have to pick a way that is good for you and stick with it.both ways take a lot of practice.


----------



## SlingMan

Jaybird said:


> Northerner
> There is a name for it hand eye co-ordination.
> I think everyone should shoot the way they shoot best and don't worry what it is called.Some people don't know the differance between hand eye co-ordination shooting and sight shooting and no matter what you tell them they will not understand the differance.For most people sight shooting is best for known distance targets and hand eye co-ordination is better for unknown distances.To get good at shooting you have to pick a way that is good for you and stick with it.both ways take a lot of practice.


WELL SAID!!!


----------



## whipcrackdeadbunny

[/quote]

You don't practice an instinctive movement.

[/quote]

Like I say, the Oxford English ... I've studied instinct in the martial arts myself, it's about guiding the hand-eye co-ordination. I was trying to point out that a discussion of such things, should be sure of the definitions, as the nature of it is something we have an 'instinctual' understanding of. And why would we discuss something, without knowing what the words mean?


----------



## Hugues

Instinct, then, is what triggers an action that's been learned and repeated so many times it has become a reflex: an act you make without thinking, like when you see an object crossing the beams of you headlights and immediatly jump at the brakes pedal, what happened 's been driven by your survival instinct. It could be completely different if you had time to notice that "the object" is , for instance, something you could eat, like a turkey or a sheep, then you you would do the opposite and "jump" at the gas pedal







and use a different reflex dictated then by your killing instinct.

So why not rename "instinctive shooting" by "reflexive shooting" sounds like it 'd fit better everyone's opinion...
I liked best to exercise in "Close combat" ways than "Krav Maga" just because I found more efficient to have no choice or no reason to use my brain (if any







) to decide, which 'd slower the action...too many solutions for the same problem makes you unefficient.

Uh, by the way, there's something everyone can do to adress his own and personal instinct (or demon







) Freud used to call "id": self hypnosis, again, believe me or not, it works!

Nothing to see with any "Oxford" stuff, whipcrackedbunny, again I'm no native english speaker, I don't master your "reflexive way"







to speak english or even to get along with you and I am sincerely sorry about it! Just honestly wished I could get to that point and hope guys like you will allow me to make it before I die...I just learned too much from school, presumably not enough from the street but I'll try and "get even" some day I promise, and the joy I get from sharing with different cultured minds is my actual medium to get "richer".

Till now, I've just found out that the most "primitive" means, apart "throwing by hand" a stone or a knife was the slingshot and again this attitude in shooting was yet more enjoyable than any other I'd knowned!

Beeing a former "practical shooter"(using fireweapons) with no sensible reason to go on practising (I'm no cop or soldier) or "practical fighter" (same inability to "substantiate" my deeds) I realisided that all the pleasure I got from the pratcice was the "aim and shoot" as fast as possible" one.
I'm no archer neither, I do things just for the pleasure but feel that the "catapult" has more possibilities to explore...

Just my "two pences" again.

Cheers, mates.


----------



## SlingMan

whipcrackdeadbunny said:


> The definition of instinct (which I think is most appropriate) according to the OED: Unconcious skill. (second definition, part b. Of the Shorter OED cir. 2007) Does not have to be, natural. It may be gained. Let's not play around with local interpretations,shall we?


Oh yes, the "dictionary fallacy."

Geez!


----------



## whipcrackdeadbunny

Please gentlemen, nothing personal was intended, I was just trying to be clear.


----------



## Hugues

_"Please gentlemen, nothing personal was intended, I was just trying to be clear."_
You said, and I really do share your ways, pal!, no offense, here.
We're just "chatting away" about a very strong sensation about catty shooting in terms of a similitude...
Catty shooting has a class of it's own when it comes to "aim and shoot "quick "and "neat".

Actually, I just feel so good to be "snotty" and "unstudied" again!


----------



## bunnymansp

i actually cant hit Sh**** when i try to aim but when i just pull point shoot i hit the target its wierd i kinda hold mine off to the left and straight up and down and just kinda imagine is i guess the word where its going to be headed and make really fast adjustments its kinda cool now that i focus on it ,I hit the target without aiming


----------



## HOE

Instinctive shooting is just like riding a bicycle, you don't look at the front wheel, but look straight! And once you got the feel, you won't forget it. It's just like riding a bicycle after 10 years, you can still ride it.


----------



## whipcrackdeadbunny

I like the bicycle idea, it's suitable.


----------



## SlingMan

HOE said:


> Instinctive shooting is just like riding a bicycle, you don't look at the front wheel, but look straight! And once you got the feel, you won't forget it. It's just like riding a bicycle after 10 years, you can still ride it.


Riding a bicycle is not instinctive. it's a learned act (through practice) once learned
retained.

I could easily say I don't have to look where I'm going to walk either. Once I learn (through practice) to walk
i don't forget it. Notice how the word practice keeps popping up? That's the difference like I said before.

If it's instinctive you don't have to practice.


----------



## HOE

There is really no point arguing where the style is instinctive or not, it's just a term that's used universally by all shooters and archers.


----------



## Northerner

Hi SlingMan,

You might like Sam Fadala's words on "instincitve shooting" from chapter 6 of his book Traditional Archery.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=i25TJiYiuOAC&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=sam+fadala+instinctive+shooting&source=bl&ots=GDtMj7rGub&sig=O-uZl6pytreQjSq9HfIy8oZBzr8&hl=en&ei=urwITf7CAYbDnAfP0rgI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=sam%20fadala%20instinctive%20shooting&f=false

ICheers,
Northerner


----------



## dragonmaster

I've been reading this post for a wile and this is just my opinion but I dont believe instinctive shooting exists because if you can see the target or the slingshot or even hear the target your aiming no matter what you call it your aiming hand eye coordination is still aiming just my


----------



## crazyslingshot

I am trying to make a new definition of instinctive shooting of slingshot as followed:

Non-instinctive shooting:

1: pause after pull for shot. 2: Aiming with a tangible thing(tubing,part of fork,attachment etc) for accuracy.

Instinctive shooting:
1: no visiable pause,very fast. 2: aiming with the intangible thing(by sense ,cooperation of hands(or arms,shoulders...) and eyes.

Personally, I love 'instinctive shooting' more, quite natural, fast,cool,accurate and often hit the moving objects.

please make your additions...


----------



## dragonmaster

Don't know is this counts but when I'm shooting some times I just point pull and release when it feels right and yes some how I still manage to hit the target I still see this as aiming though


----------



## Xidoo

crazyslingshot said:


> In my opinion, the solid compact slingshot is necessary for a fast instictive shooting.
> 
> It makes no sense to take or practise the instinctive shooting with ,no mean to offend, the wisrt-brace Trumark slingshot and other bulky slings.


Why not?? I do not aim, and only shoot instictivly. I used Marksman 3040 slingshots, for some time and never aim. I do not even know how to aim with a slingshot.


----------

