# Relative effectiveness between a constrictors knot and a surgeons knot



## Dr J

I have used both, but the surgeons knot is easier for me in certain situations.. Your experience with either would be appreciated.


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## e~shot

Mostly constrictor knot for band - pouch attachments, wanted to try surgeon's knot. Looks typically Doctors like surgeon's knot 










Constrictor knot










Surgeon's knot


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## Dr J

Thanks for your reply! I am a surgeon so i know what a surgeon knot looks like, God knows I have tied thousands! I also know what a constrictor knot is, as I was a Queen scout My question, which might have been misread is the effectiveness of either in relation to making ties on the slingshot. Thanks


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## KITROBASKIN

Thank you for presenting such a clear way of making the constrictor knot. What is your perspective on the merits of each? (to echo Dr J)


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## stej

Dr J said:


> Thanks for your reply! I am a surgeon so i know what a surgeon knot looks like, God knows I have tied thousands! I also know what a constrictor knot is, as I was a Queen scout My question, which might have been misread is the effectiveness of either in relation to making ties on the slingshot. Thanks


Try yourself 

I have never read about surgeon knot and slingshots. As I didn't trust it, I first made a constrictor knot (for tying the pseudotapered tubes) and then after it was tight I added 2x surgeon knot, but only the simple, without so many rounds as on e~shot's picture. The result is that the surgeon knot disappeared quite soon, whereas the constrictor knot is still there as looks as made today.


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## Rayshot

As I understand from what I heard in conversation at the 2012 ECST, Blue Skeen used a surgeons knot, as his knot since he hadn't learned the constrictor knot. Now I don't know the specifics in how it was applied by him. Perhaps Nathan will see this as he may know the specific application of the Surgeons knot used by Blue.


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## SonoftheRepublic

I use the constrictor knot exclusively when tying tubes to leather pouch. Have never had a failure. Very good knot for slingshots in my opinion.

Never used the surgeon knot though.


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## hoggif

If you're in doubt you can add a drop of paint/glue over the knot to make it more permanent. (I use colored paint that color codes my tube types).

I've found constrictor knot very reliable without the paint but it never hurts to make it better and colored (no experience with sergeon knot).


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## Dr J

There in lies the problem! Opinions are made on conjecture and opinion. If someone was operating on your daughter or son to keep it equal and he told you I am about to tie off the major blood vessel, as a slingshot person, which one would you like me to use, the knot I have used in thousands successful operations, or a constrictor knot , which one would you tell him to use. There is a reason why surgeons use the surgeon's knot and have for centuries. I rest my case QED.


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## KITROBASKIN

I use the surgeon's knot for nylon thread, string and rope if it has a slick feel to it. Having never used the constrictor knot before... Well it looks sound and people here have had substantial success with it. And cotton has plenty surface friction.

If one objective is to make the connection between pouch and band as small and light as possible, then it seems the constrictor knot wins.


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## SHTF Slingshots

Dr J, simply put, they each have an advantage, the constrictor is easy and effective, the surgeons knot, by the sound of things, can become a very tight knot, a constrictor out of them is my choice, tying it off with a secure knot when it's tight gives me all the functions I need.
But in certain cases things are different, so try it and find out.


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## Rayshot

There is a huge difference in the forces and "materials" being addressed with the two scenarios, surgery and securing stretching elastic.

What we need here is as mentioned above (since no one apparently knows for sure), it will be better that someone do the test. Especially if one has the curiosity to know. Then we will all know.

Otherwise this could turn into another downward spiraling battle of words and opinions thread.


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## Dr J

I already know. Each one has its place let the surgeon use the surgeon' s knot let the slingshot enthusiasts use the constrictor knot, and those who cannot make up their minds can use which ever they like.


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## KITROBASKIN

Better to battle with words than slingshots. Yes? Rayshot makes a good point.


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## quarterinmynose

Like Ray said.....I know Blue uses the surgeon's knot. Unfortunately, He is not here to tell us his reasons. I can tell you that is works though, I have shot with several of Blue's bandsets and not had any problems. The constrictor knot also works just fine. I have used it many times with no problems. My preference is to tie everything with strips of elastic. It probably takes just as long if not longer to tie, but I like the assurance of rubber on rubber friction, and it just seems less harsh on the bands. I know every one of you out there has the resources to find out which they like for themselves, it just takes some experimentation.


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## pop shot

they use the surgeons knot because it can be tied while only using forceps. constrictor knot is one step, there's two ways to tie it, tag end and in line. i've tied 80 lb speargun rubber with only a constrictor knot, no square knot to follow up, and I never had a break, slip or a cut tube. it's the only knot that would cinch down enough. but i'm sure the surgeons knot works fine for slingshot forces. it just takes too long for me.


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## treefork

The constrictor is simple ,easy and effective for slingshot applications. When I find a simpler, easier and more effective knot , I will certainly use it.


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## e~shot

By the way this is my favorite book on knots










This one is the best but it too expensive


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## KITROBASKIN

OK e~shot

What is the name of this knot and can you reference it in a book or internet by chance? Thank You. I do not know the name.


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## wombat

okay a bit bored, so I just did a simple finger test. Tied both knots around two different fingers.
Two points stood out.

1: it was a lot easier to tighten the constrictor without having to worry about it slipping.
2: The main and most important difference was the constrictor knot ended up with a double loop, thus automatically making it stronger!!!

as a side note...I always finish the constrictor with a square knot.


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## Dr J

This is my reference when it comes to knots


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## stej

wombat said:


> okay a bit bored, so I just did a simple finger test. Tied both knots around two different fingers.
> Two points stood out.
> 
> 1: it was a lot easier to tighten the constrictor without having to worry about it slipping.
> 2: The main and most important difference was the constrictor knot ended up with a double loop, thus automatically making it stronger!!!
> 
> as a side note...I always finish the constrictor with a square knot.


I did the same, but the square knot doesn't survive. Do you use also glue or something like that?


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## wombat

don't take this the wrong way, but are you sure you're tying it correctly? I've never had any problems!!

left over right, right over left.

I do turn the pouch over before I tie the square knot. this way you get an extra loop and not such a thick knot.



stej said:


> wombat said:
> 
> 
> 
> okay a bit bored, so I just did a simple finger test. Tied both knots around two different fingers.
> Two points stood out.
> 
> 1: it was a lot easier to tighten the constrictor without having to worry about it slipping.
> 2: The main and most important difference was the constrictor knot ended up with a double loop, thus automatically making it stronger!!!
> 
> as a side note...I always finish the constrictor with a square knot.
> 
> 
> 
> I did the same, but the square knot doesn't survive. Do you use also glue or something like that?
Click to expand...


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## ZorroSlinger

Nah ...this is THE Bible of Knots :imslow:










I acquired back in 1985 (mine has older/different cover than above). When I joined this forum, I re-visited knot tying. I mostly use constrictor knot for slingshot applications. My understanding of constrictor is, that it works best for tying & binding Round-Circular shaped objects. Easier for me to remember constrictor. If one forgets any knots, you can photocopy diagram (from book) of most used knots & keep as reference in your slingshot toolbox


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## Dr J

Kitrobaskin, the knot displayed looks like the Riggers Bend, devised by American Phil D Smith during world war 2. Then English physician rediscovered it in 1978 and renamed it the Hunter's Bend. This led in 1982 to the international Guild of Knot Tyers. That is what it looks like to me. A very secure knot. Hope this helps. Keep well. 
It was never my intention to cause so much commotion , all I did was ask a question.


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## leon13

KITROBASKIN said:


> top of knot.JPG
> 
> OK e~shot
> 
> What is the name of this knot and can you reference it in a book or internet by chance? Thank You. I do not know the name.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> underside of knot.JPG


well i hope this helps:

http://www.animatedknots.com/hunters/

i like that page but i go with the "ashley book" & can recommend knot apps : whatknot,kg free,knots. cheers


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## KITROBASKIN

That's it! Thanks to both of you, Dr J and Leon13. The sequential stills for making the knot on animated knots.com is very instructive.

When I was a late teen in the latter 70's, there was a tiny article in Newsweek Magazine about the guy who "invented" it, and that it is rare to invent a useful knot in this day and age. I don't believe the knot had a name in the article.

Perhaps it should be said that it is not a knot that can be made to tighten around something like a surgeon's knot or constrictor knot.

Thanks again Dr J for sparking this interesting discussion and thank you forum members for allowing this brief deviation. The knot books look interesting---- an ancient skill lives on


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## ZorroSlinger

Wow ... that hunters bend might seem the answer to my lanyard problems! With regular sized slingshots, when I shoot, I got in habit of looping lanyard onto my wrists. When tying/attaching lanyard's to slingshot handles, particularly with paracord, the various knots I used, after some usage & handling of slingshots, the lanyard knot always came loose. Just tried this knot and so far it seems secure 










Thanks for posting question & answers about the above knot. It's okay to sometimes go a little off topic!


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## KITROBASKIN

Thanks ZorroSlinger

If you haven't already, take a look at the zeppelin knot on animatedknots.com. I think that's what I have been doing because I have never had a jam with that knot even after significant loading. To open the knot, I press down and away from the knot on the two "loops" running perpendicular to the main section of rope (that encircles the hand for a lanyard) while pushing up from underneath in the middle of the knot. It has been reliable on bungee cord (like the picture) as well as nylon para cord, gutted or not.


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## pop shot

I don't, the force and direction required to tighten a square knot loosen the grip of the constrictor knot.


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## JetBlack

wombat said:


> as a side note...I always finish the constrictor ,with a square knot.


I do the same and put a drop off gorilla glue on the knot.I try not to get it on the tube but have a few times with no issues.I don't prestretch but snug it up as I tighten so its a bit taught around the pouch.


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## wombat

I forgot to mention that I also wax the thread. the wax acts as a glue.



wombat said:


> don't take this the wrong way, but are you sure you're tying it correctly? I've never had any problems!!
> 
> left over right, right over left.
> 
> I do turn the pouch over before I tie the square knot. this way you get an extra loop and not such a thick knot.
> 
> 
> 
> stej said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wombat said:
> 
> 
> 
> okay a bit bored, so I just did a simple finger test. Tied both knots around two different fingers.
> Two points stood out.
> 
> 1: it was a lot easier to tighten the constrictor without having to worry about it slipping.
> 2: The main and most important difference was the constrictor knot ended up with a double loop, thus automatically making it stronger!!!
> 
> as a side note...I always finish the constrictor with a square knot.
> 
> 
> 
> I did the same, but the square knot doesn't survive. Do you use also glue or something like that?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## stej

wombat said:


> I forgot to mention that I also wax the thread. the wax acts as a glue.


Might that make a difference? I have tied it only on pseudotapered tubes so far to make a loop. Never to tie tube to pouch. I'll try some day.


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## Dayhiker

In my opinion the only thing that makes a difference is the material you are tying with. As any fisherman knows, there are many knots that are great for rope, but pretty much useless for monofilament line, for example. Now I've never tyed an artery off with whatever a surgeon uses for that, but I have used the surgeon's knot for other purposes. Once I learned the constrictor knot, though, I figure it beat the surgeon's knot hands down. It's simpler, flatter, and cinches up tighter without any slip. (There are certain materials that will slip a little before applying the finishing knot.) I used to finish the constrictor off with a hitch, but no more. I have full confidence in it when using cotton twine or waxed leather-stitching twine.


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## wombat

I thought we were talking about tying pouches?? but I've used the same method for tying loops and it seems to work just as well!



stej said:


> wombat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot to mention that I also wax the thread. the wax acts as a glue.
> 
> 
> 
> Might that make a difference? I have tied it only on pseudotapered tubes so far to make a loop. Never to tie tube to pouch. I'll try some day.
Click to expand...


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## wombat

Dayhiker said:


> In my opinion the only thing that makes a difference is the material you are tying with. As any fisherman knows, there are many knots that are great for rope, but pretty much useless for monofilament line, for example. Now I've never tyed an artery off with whatever a surgeon uses for that, but I have used the surgeon's knot for other purposes. Once I learned the constrictor knot, though, I figure it beat the surgeon's knot hands down. It's simpler, flatter, and cinches up tighter without any slip. (There are certain materials that will slip a little before applying the finishing knot.) I used to finish the constrictor off with a hitch, but no more. I have full confidence in it when using cotton twine or waxed leather-stitching twine.


YEP!!!


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## Dayhiker

And it just might be that the doctors who started using the surgeon's knot, and those who have followed the tradition over the past thousand years or so, were simply unaware of the constrictor knot. Who knows? :iono:


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## Dr J

Just thought I would let you folks know that after extensive additional research I discovered that there is a surgeon's constrictor knot. Created by an English veterinarian who used it in hysterectomys. Sorry for the run, but we all learned something I hope. Next time keep well!


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## Hrawk

This one's a no brainier all the way for me. Sure both knots are just as secure but the double loop of the constrictor knot will give you the same holding force but spread out over a wider surface area imparting less stress onto the rubber you are tying.


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## Dayhiker

Hrawk said:


> This one's a no brainier all the way for me. Sure both knots are just as secure but the double loop of the constrictor knot will give you the same holding force but spread out over a wider surface area imparting less stress onto the rubber you are tying.




(... "It works, b!tches.") :lol:


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## ZorroSlinger

KITROBASKIN said:


> Thanks ZorroSlinger
> 
> If you haven't already, take a look at the zeppelin knot on animatedknots.com. I think that's what I have been doing because I have never had a jam with that knot even after significant loading. To open the knot, I press down and away from the knot on the two "loops" running perpendicular to the main section of rope (that encircles the hand for a lanyard) while pushing up from underneath in the middle of the knot. It has been reliable on bungee cord (like the picture) as well as nylon para cord, gutted or not.


Zeppelin knot is 'Da Bomb' for tying lanyard ends :banana: Stays tight and no self-loosening when I wrap lanyard firmly on wrist.

To remove lanyard from slingshot, Zeppelin can be more easily undone compared to Hunter's bend knot. Back to your regularly scheduled topic ....


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## Dayhiker

Zeppelin bend is my favorite knot!


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## Dr J

I was of the opinion that it was decided a Long time ago that the constrictors knot was the most popular for most folks. I use the surgeon's constrictors knot.


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## KITROBASKIN

Dr J said:


> I was of the opinion that it was decided a Long time ago that the constrictors knot was the most popular for most folks. I use the surgeon's constrictors knot.


Dear Sir on an Island,

I believe our fellow members were talking (briefly) about using a zeppelin knot for tying off lanyards, not the band to pouch connection.

Furthering the side note: I have a hard time remembering the zeppelin knot if I'm in the field so if the rope or string to be joined is the same diameter it is easy and (I think) secure to make an overhand knot with both ropes parallel and both ends right next to each other, facing the same direction. (couldn't find the name of this knot either). It's not as pretty as a zeppelin knot though.


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## leon13

ZorroSlinger said:


> KITROBASKIN said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks ZorroSlinger
> 
> If you haven't already, take a look at the zeppelin knot on animatedknots.com. I think that's what I have been doing because I have never had a jam with that knot even after significant loading. To open the knot, I press down and away from the knot on the two "loops" running perpendicular to the main section of rope (that encircles the hand for a lanyard) while pushing up from underneath in the middle of the knot. It has been reliable on bungee cord (like the picture) as well as nylon para cord, gutted or not.
> 
> 
> 
> Zeppelin knot is 'Da Bomb' for tying lanyard ends :banana: Stays tight and no self-loosening when I wrap lanyard firmly on wrist.
> 
> To remove lanyard from slingshot, Zeppelin can be more easily undone compared to Hunter's bend knot. Back to your regularly scheduled topic ....
Click to expand...






4 those that not know or Haven't seen this.

cheers


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## stej

Those of you, who user constrictor knot - do you tie the simple one, or doubled?


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## Dayhiker

I tie the simple one.


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## leon13

stej said:


> Those of you, who user constrictor knot - do you tie the simple one, or doubled?


Depends on what type of string/yarn i got.


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