# Poll: How should the copying of slingshots be treated?



## NightKnight (Dec 16, 2009)

​
*How should the copying of slingshots be treated?*

I am a vendor. People SHOULD be allowed to clone designs and show them here but NOT sell them without the permission from the original designer73.78%I am NOT a vendor. People SHOULD be allowed to clone designs and show them here but NOT sell them without the permission from the original designer11763.24%I am a vendor. People should NOT be allowed to clone designs and show OR sell them here without permission from the original designer73.78%I am NOT a vendor. People should NOT be allowed to clone designs and show OR sell them here without permission from the original designer3217.30%I am a vendor. People SHOULD be allowed to clone designs and show OR sell them here without permission from the original designer10.54%I am NOT a vendor. People SHOULD be allowed to clone designs and show OR sell them here without permission from the original designer2111.35%


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## NightKnight (Dec 16, 2009)

Please cast your vote. This has been an ongoing issue for the moderating team and I. We are not lawyers, so is difficult for us to interpret copyright law. We need to get a consensus from the community on how to handle this.


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## mckee (Oct 28, 2010)

Good poll aaron


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## Peresh (May 3, 2010)

I like it Aaron.

I would copy something and improve it. I don't care about cloning something to the exact. I'd rather just buy it from the real mccoy.

AND for the record I choose:

I am NOT a vendor. People SHOULD be allowed to clone designs and show them here but NOT sell them without the permission from the origial designer


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## harpersgrace (Jan 28, 2010)

The problem isn't cloning, it's the fact that by nature slingshots are going to be similar, that two or more people may come up with a similar design with out "cloning" and who has the right to judge what is similar and what is cloned.


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## gamekeeper john (Apr 11, 2011)

were do you draw the line between a "outright clone" and a "simalar design"


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

There were two posts in contention that got this going again. Neither of them was a clone. Why are you using that word? It doesn't address the immediate problems.


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## shot in the foot (Jan 3, 2010)

harpersgrace said:


> The problem isn't cloning, it's the fact that by nature slingshots are going to be similar, that two or more people may come up with a similar design with out "cloning" and who has the right to judge what is similar and what is cloned.


I think you have hit the nail on the head, there is always people come on the site and think they have come up with a new slingshot, but it will look like one thats been done, 
i made this when i 1st came on site, and just finished it not long ago, i even put it in the shared part, but if you look it has a look of one of Smittys, jeff


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## WC28 (May 23, 2011)

my opinoin dosent matter to most but i know this is many peoples hobby and others lives but their just slingshots and copying others designs isnt right but it happens we'll all learn from this but again their just peices of wood


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## gamekeeper john (Apr 11, 2011)

Dayhiker said:


> There were two posts in contention that got this going again. Neither of them was a clone. Why are you using that word? It doesn't address the immediate problems.


 thanks for addressing that dayhiker! i think my post is one of them in question, it is clearly not a clone as the forks are a different shape, (just for the record i wont be making that design again either) john


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## Gabriel66 (Mar 10, 2011)

Wonder? Which came first the chicken or the egg?

I would not bother to copy some of mine design and manufacture or sell

I remember all the great secrets found in the man shall be revealed to mankind.


Gabriel


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## NightKnight (Dec 16, 2009)

Dayhiker said:


> There were two posts in contention that got this going again. Neither of them was a clone. Why are you using that word? It doesn't address the immediate problems.


It was a clone. The only way it could be any closer is if he actually had Perry's pattern. Here is the picture he posted and one off of the A+ site.


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## orcrender (Sep 11, 2010)

First I buy most of my slingshots. Our vendors do better work than me. Clone means completely identical and I will agree if they want to do that they need permission and should not sell them. What has come up repeatedly here is something that has a feature that someone else is using or the shape is close; that is not a clone. Just look at spring break air rifles; not much difference there. When an item is designed to do a specific job in a certain way you will come up with most being about the same from many designers.

Wayne


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Yeah, I guess it was.









I think I'm done posting on this thread.


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## msholit (Nov 17, 2010)

harpersgrace said:


> The problem isn't cloning, it's the fact that by nature slingshots are going to be similar, that two or more people may come up with a similar design with out "cloning" and who has the right to judge what is similar and what is cloned.


Only thing truly unique is the mechanism that holds the pouch. Being the first to throw COMMON aspects together such as bands, frames,pulleys and stocks does not make you the owner of the design, it just makes you the first to show it off. There are countless others who have made similar designs to each other, but have simply kept them to themselves.

Only if there is something truly unique, should it NOT be copied.

Bands with pulleys are NOT unique and can be shown to have first been designed for underwater spearguns, trigger mechanisms with the 2 rollers pinching together are also NOT unique because that design already existed in China.
Almost every patent associated with the speargun or slingshot has expired. The only one i know to still be effective are tongs used to retain the pouch, and that is a very ghetto solution.

Then there is artwork, the frame is like art and protected by intellectual property laws, once it is published...for instance on the internet it is protected for that sole person.. But you'd have to be a sorry SOB to copy someone elses art then sell them as your own.


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## cvarcher (Jun 13, 2010)

Hey these are slingshots ,not sophisticated items that people make a full living on or develeoped some secret special wizardy that warrants an inventors patent. IF you copy a slingshot that you like so much its really a compliment to the original designer who may not be around making them any more. So at least some original designs can be enjoyed for all newcomers too. I think that adds to the excitement.If I copied a whamo out of figured cherry I dont think the company Wham-o is worried about me doing this. And if down the road I sell it or give it as a gift to someone its not going to change a thing. I am so happy that Hogue Castings is resurrecting from the dead all those old time great slingshots.Hey everyone--lets just enjoy them and stop picking on petty stuff like this. A quick story-- I love wood canvas canoes.One of the great designs that touches my soul is the 15ft B.N. Morris model A. You would have to be very very lucky to find one of them in decent restorable shape. There was one in the Adirondack museum from 1895 in great condition. I had a canoe builder take the line offsets on it and build the mould where he can then make an exact duplicate of that model canoe. Mr. Morris is long gone and his shop went on fire in the 20s so theres no original moulds around either. Now a future cusotmer doesnt have to dream of paddling one he /she could order one from this builder who has the mould.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/cvarcher/Morris.jpg


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## haertig (Jul 30, 2010)

[playing_devils_advocate]

How do you plan to determine who the original designer is? The first person to post a picture on these forums and claim the design is theirs? That would be a very superficial way to assign ownership of the design, fraught with much potential for incorrectly assigning design ownership. If someone has a patent on their design, by all means, that needs to be enforced. However, it is the design owner that needs to do the enforcing, not SlingshotForums.com. Shy of a patent, we have copyright. Does copyright even apply to slingshots? Patents would, but copyright? I don't know.

It's a tricky area. Who is to say that one of the people claiming design rights on these forums did not initially see the design on eBay and cloned it themselves? I am all for protecting intellectual rights for people coming up with unique designs. But the problem is, what is "unique" in slingshots? Is ANYTHING truely unique, or just a minor variation? And also, is SlingshotForum.com in a position to grant design ownership to anyone? Do the moderators want to take on that responsibility? Do the moderators posses enough knowledge and background and research tools to make a judgement like this?

I know that most people here, including myself, will want to vote for "NO, clones can't be sold here". Nobody wants to see someone elses hard work ripped off by another. But to try and ENFORCE such a thing requires one to put themself into the all-knowing and in-control-of-the-design-universe position.

Sometimes what you WANT to do, and what you realistically CAN do (or SHOULD do), are far far apart.

[/playing_devils_advocate]


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## slingshot_sniper (Feb 20, 2011)

If I made slingshots I would find it quite a pleasure that someone here wanted to copy it







so long as its done for personal use I would not have a problem....copy to sell is a different story and I would not condone that.

For the record I chose

I am NOT a vendor. People SHOULD be allowed to clone designs and show them here but NOT sell them without the permission from the original designer


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## lightgeoduck (Apr 3, 2011)

I voted :I am NOT a vendor. People SHOULD be allowed to clone designs and show them here but NOT sell them without the permission from the origial designer ( even though I am not sure about the term "clone" )


I just wanted to add, that credit should be given where credit is due. if you wanted to try to make "member X's" design mentioning where you got the design from is the kosher thing to do. Granted there are limited things you can do with a piece of wood, so knowing if it was made "first" might not always occur, but again if it isn't for profit, than who should really care. I assist on a forum that this topic is dealt with in a bigger scale, so I am well aware of both sides ( I am willing to share this to the admins via PM if desired )






Note: I voted and stated my opinion because this thread was created, and I am just being part of the community, but I agree 100% with the concept forum rules should be followed and people have the choice to stay or go.






cheers




LGD


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## Green-burmese (May 8, 2011)

Its a very difficult subject as all catapult designs are a variation of a forked stick with elastic and a pouch...how different can they be ??
I have been looking at many different sites resently as i am looking for another slingshot and when you sit back and look they are nearly all identical apart from the odd radical design here and there.

Pinkie holes seem to be a hot topic at the minute as in the A+ design , the "Scallop"design , the MILBRO "X Calibur" design... not a new idea just a good stability aid like the Lanyard ..(whos claiming that one)









Surely in an area with such small design scope the main detail is the workmanship that goes into each piece , if you sell a good well made piece you will get a good name and sell plenty but if you make junk then you won't.

These are my own thoughts on the matter , i do not make or sell slingshots but thanks to Forums like this one i know which people do and do it very well.


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## orcrender (Sep 11, 2010)

By the why I voted as below.

I am NOT a vendor. People SHOULD be allowed to clone designs and show them here but NOT sell them without the permission from the original designer


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## chaindrivecharlie (Jan 27, 2011)

I would not copy someones design without permission.


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## Chrissz (May 2, 2011)

Just my two cents...

If i stumble just by creating and designing of a boardcut, or something else over a design which i like, or which seems to be very goodd, maybe someone else made it already... so i would be treated like i would just copy... in fact i feel like i invented it.

The more i think about design or art, the more i get to the point that almost all artists, "steal" something (techniques and so on) from each other... This lets the art grow, in our case, designs get better.

*But a Slingshot is not just a design printed out on a multiplex board. Everybody who made a Slingshot with his own hands knows that.*
*
A Slingshot is also how you are able to work with the wood, with polish, sandpaper and so on. So if anybody sells outstanding quality of slingshots will always do,*
even if somebody copies his designs and gets something similar, but not even something close to the original.

Then there are the bands and so on...

Because i see the slingshot not only as a blueprint, i voted for all designs to be free to be copied, shown and used whatever for.

Greetings


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## aikidog (Jan 29, 2011)

I dabble in woodwork, no formal training let me be frank. My inexperienced hands produce poop. I have tried some of the designs I have seen. And purchased several fine pieces of craftsmanship. Those that sell full or part time usually have a superior product to the knock offs. They shouldnt worry about infringements. In essence all slingshots are copied to be begin with. Speak to the inventor of the y. Direct plagerism to include signatures, graphics, etc that is wrong with out a doubt also makes owning one of those fine pieces all the more worth while. Just my opinion..


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## Asa Foley (May 23, 2011)

First - as an author and song writer I do not like people that steal my stuff -

Second - Slingshots were very simple when growing up - but German Jorge - Bill Hays and many others have proven that imagination is the only limit to what simple rubber bands can do - This site to me (while new to slingshots) proves that far beyond simple, these are sophisticated - if they were simple we would not be discussing them on this website and we would all spend more time out shooting them.

Having said all that I just bought a cheap zinc chinese clone of a slingshot I wanted (with a laser site, wow) but I am going to use it as a template to make the slingshot I want with modifications based on information from German Jorge and Dave from the pathfinder school.

This is a great resource to put our imaginations to work and develop the next evolution

If buying a clone and not willing to spent that extra 20 bucks for the real deal then perhaps you should consider your safety - A chunk of metal flying four feet back into your face or eye might make you reconsider how much of a good deal it really is - I often watch German Jorge and shudder that the thought of what his face would look like if those huge bands pulled to the limit broke his designs.

A perfect example of the issue is Chief AJ with the Aim Point - When I got it I was worried about it just being another tube slingshot - after shooting it I realized it was an amazing technical advance in balance, handling, performance - Yes it is simple - yet in being simple the shooter becomes a larger part of the function and inaugurated into the shot - Sounds silly till you try one... But, still is is very advanced.


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## m3rlin (Jul 5, 2010)

hi there,

well i think that nearly each sling is original... many looks similar to others, but there are not many ways to make sling...
so.. using similar shapes, material etc.. sure why not.

but selling "replicas" of some is little unfair to original creator.

my way...
I am NOT a vendor. People SHOULD be allowed to clone designs and show them here but NOT sell them without the permission from the origial designer.


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## nieten7642 (Oct 18, 2010)

AaronC said:


> Please cast your vote. This has been an ongoing issue for the moderating team and I. We are not lawyers, so is difficult for us to interpret copyright law. We need to get a consensus from the community on how to handle this.


First of all, I don't think Slingshot Forums needs to be in the business of policing this at all, personally... but that being said I am pretty much a "free market" guy. I believe that this issue is a matter of personal responsibility and integrity. The operative word being *personal*.

As someone mentioned earlier, there isn't a whole lot of room for originality with a slingshot. After all, slingshots are weapons that date back thousands of years. They are typically basic mechanisms made up of an elastic band with two attachment points and a pouch that slings projectiles at high rates of speed. Sure, there have been (and continue to be) innovations and variations with this weapon, but let's be honest... the slingshots of today are not that different from the ones from thousands of years ago.

I personally have only purchased slingshots made by custom slingshot makers, but I have to admit that I have been interested in innovating a few designs of my own. I don't plan on selling any of them, but who knows. I'd love to think that if I wanted to, I could do so. So... what constitutes a copy exactly? Let's say someone likes the A+ slingshots, but wishes they were offered in... I don't know, titanium? (I know what you are thinking... but play along for argument sake.) Would the same exact shape as an A+ slingshot offered in a different material like titanim, micarta (or whatever material) by another maker be considered a copy? Does the first person who made a slingshot from laminated wood... do they "own" the "intellectual property rights" of being able to exclusively make slingshots from laminated wood? Of course not. What if someone else can make a better laminated wood slingshot? Should they not be able to bring this innovation to life and offer it to the public? What if someone else is able to make them and offer them at a lower price? See how competition ultimately benefits the consumer?

Let's let the consumer decide. Let's let the slingshot makers work this out amongst each other (in a grown up way, please). No reason to police this on a forum. The consumer absolutely has the right to express their opinion that slingshot maker A stole their design from slingshot maker B... and the other forum members have the right to agree or disagree on an individual level *and* spend their money accordingly.

Integrity and personal responsibility are PERSONAL decision. No one here needs to police them. People have the _*responsibility*_ to be ethical, but they also have the right to choose not to be ethical. If everyone simply policed _*themselves*_, none of us would have to police each other.

Part of freedom is having the right to make the wrong decision.

I'll get off my "soap box" now.


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## Brooklyn00003 (Feb 28, 2010)

Order must be kept !!

My opinion is one can make a slingshot even the same copy then ask if its ok to post pictures of it.

All comes down to two parts: 1. A member does not make many slingshots and does not have own idea. Cant make a beauty . He will take Ideas from other slingshots !!! Call it copy
2. One have the ability to make very nice good quality slingshots - ---Then he should be able to get his own idea..

Clone -means IDENTICAL







not look alike


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## As8MaN (Mar 6, 2011)

I am NOT a vendor. People SHOULD be allowed to clone designs and show them here but NOT sell them without the permission from the origial designe.


Won't talk about it anymore.


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## NoSugarRob (Jun 3, 2010)

this is down to morals i think ? .. if you see a guy selling cattys for an income (its a business for this guy), would you copy his design then advertise it in direct competition, side by side, in the same market place ?......... you choose.... some will think it ok, others will not. would it be ok to copy just one for yourself, for your collection ? .. you decide for your self gents......
I think that if you're a member or visitor of these forums, and you dont see a design in the shared design thread you should approach the guy with the frame you want to copy, tell him / her what you would like to do (whole truth) and if u gets the go ahead all is splendid....


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## A+ Slingshots (Jan 22, 2010)

AaronC said:


> There were two posts in contention that got this going again. Neither of them was a clone. Why are you using that word? It doesn't address the immediate problems.


It was a clone. The only way it could be any closer is if he actually had Perry's pattern. Here is the picture he posted and one off of the A+ site.
[/quote]

Aaron.... my tooling and products have looked like this...... for quite a while as I was able to better my equipment so the similarities are even stronger than you know.....That pic you have is of one of my OLDEST PS-1's.... I've constantly worked to improve my product since I started making them..
Here's a sample of some old and newer pics of my PS-2........ and other designs.





































Here is some of my earliest work from last year......










*People know EXACTLY what they are doing!!!*


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## Hugues (Mar 27, 2010)

Come on, folks!
I used to live as a free lance illustrator (might have been "designer" or whatever) what if you were actually stolen an idea or concept (f*ck all flaming words definitions!) that had cost you hours, weeks or months of labour to come about?!

Nothing as so frustrating!
I do share a lot with others, on this good ol' web", but I always quote my "sources" when I have to !

I am just happy and proud to point a"master" when I happen to cross one.


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## nieten7642 (Oct 18, 2010)

AaronC said:


> There were two posts in contention that got this going again. Neither of them was a clone. Why are you using that word? It doesn't address the immediate problems.


It was a clone. The only way it could be any closer is if he actually had Perry's pattern. Here is the picture he posted and one off of the A+ site.
[/quote]

Simply solution: Don't purchase the alleged "clone". I admit, the two designs are virtually identical. That being said, follow your conscience and purchase the original. Problem solved.


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## Brooklyn00003 (Feb 28, 2010)

nieten7642 said:


> There were two posts in contention that got this going again. Neither of them was a clone. Why are you using that word? It doesn't address the immediate problems.


It was a clone. The only way it could be any closer is if he actually had Perry's pattern. Here is the picture he posted and one off of the A+ site.
[/quote]

Simply solution: Don't purchase the alleged "clone". I admit, the two designs are virtually identical. That being said, follow your conscience and purchase the original. Problem solved.
[/quote]

You are talking about the picture Aron put up.

Which one is the original?


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

I think everybody should be allowed to copy, but not to sell a clone.

I don't think this rule would harm vendors, as those who are able to make a slingshot in professional quality wouldn't buy it anyway. Most people can't, though.

Is it HONORABLE to copy without asking for permission first? No. Not in my book.

Would I comment on someone's see-my-beautiful-clone thread? No. Why? There is nothing new.


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## slingshot_sniper (Feb 20, 2011)

Good job there's no problem copying band sets pouches and ammo..else we'd all be in trouble


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## NoSugarRob (Jun 3, 2010)

slingshot_sniper said:


> Good job there's no problem copying band sets pouches and ammo..else we'd all be in trouble


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## Hugues (Mar 27, 2010)

Right, Joerg!

A simple matter of honesty and pride of oneself!


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## burn (Oct 25, 2010)

there are only so many ways a perosn can launch an object with bands....so that being the case their is a finite way of making a slingshot....

now if you clone or copy an idea...be man enough to give credit where it is due.... and never sell anything while trying to claim it was made by someone else whos design you used....


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## PandaMan (Oct 14, 2010)

I voted for the option that was closest to my opinion - I am NOT a vendor. People SHOULD be allowed to clone designs and show them here but NOT sell them without the permission from the origial designer


I am not a vendor. People should be allowed to clone designs. If they are to post pictures, they must first get the permission of the current vendor selling said design, and give direct credit to the said vendor in the post. They may not sell clones at all.


This is my opinion. If a vendor lets a member copy their design then surely that is a form of advertisement. People will think - "Oh yeah, that's person X's design. I want to buy one of them!" or something along the lines of that (possibly). I honestly don't see what all the fuss is.


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## Hugues (Mar 27, 2010)

Definitely NO!

Think of Joerg and all he has done for improving "things" about.... any copyist should be prosecuted! I mean this...

Intellectual property has to be protected, it involves so much...


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## Uncle George (Aug 18, 2010)

If you don't want someone else to copy your particular design AND SELL IT, then the only legal protection you have available to you in the U.S. is a patent. If you put your item up for sale publicly for one year then your design is not patentable after that year is up. You can get a provisional patent before you put your item up for sale publicly which gives you a temporary patent for one year. It is provided to give you protection from theft of your design while you get your product ready for public sale and to refine your design. You must apply for a regular patent within that year. If you go past the one year then your product is not patentable.

In order to get a patent your design must be new, never done before or have an innovation that hasn't been available before and makes the original design, no matter who's design it is, better or have a new innovative way of operating the item. The innovation should be a clear, no muddy water hear, change to the design. Making a slingshot bigger, longer, wider, forks wider apart, narrower, different color and such would not be an innovation that would be patentable. Putting steel stiffening rods in the forks might be patentable if a patent search shows no one has ever done that before. Getting a patent on a slingshot would be difficult to do unless you came up with a new kind of slingshot never offered up to the public before. Most slingshots have been up for public sale more than one year and not patentable by the maker or someone else. This provides you with a little protection of your design if you put it up for public sale for one year, which needs to be verifiable, by making your design not patentable by anyone else and allowing the leverage to stop you from selling your own design.

If the business you operate doesn't make in the neighborhood of $300,000 to 500,000 per year, economically it might not make sense to get a patent. Patents are very expensive and have yearly fees. Patent searches can cost you a bundle. If you have someone stealing your design and you have a legal patent on that desing, you will need a substantial amount of bucks to challenge the offender as you will need a patent attorney. Most folks that are making these slingshots as a part time or even full time business probably won't benefit from a patent even if you can get one. BTW, you will pay your patent attorney and his associates for their time to do the paperwork and patent seach even if it turns out your product can't be patented.

As far as this forum and others go, it should be up to the moderators or owners of the forum to make clear rules as to whether publishing clones and such on their public forums. Their is no law that keeps anyone from copying another persons slingshot and selling it if there is no patent protection on that slingshot. However there is no law that prohibits a forum from making rules that govern the publication of photos and information concerning clones and such. Other than patents only ethics rule. Some folks are ethical and won't copy and sell others ideas and then there are other folks that may not know that they are doing such a thing or more'n likely do know that they are copying others work and don't care or just thumb their nose at those that have put in the work and money to bring a product to the public for sale.

So what lots of companies do, is they don't patent products and just use the funds that they would use to have and maintain patents for better marketing than their competitors. Better prices, better packaging and better services to name a few strategies.

I am not a lawyer but have had to face this issue with my business. My brother-in-law is a partner in a law firm in Houston that deals with all kinds of legal stuff but has a group that deals with nothing but patent law and handles multi-million dollar companies patent issues. HIs dad is the head of the engineering department at a Texas university and patent law is taught there governing engineering innovative ideas.

I have no more to offer and won't be offering further comments or responses. Hope this helps.


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## slingshot_sniper (Feb 20, 2011)

Just picture the scenario for a moment!....I come on here being a slingshot fan and I happen to have my own designs never really seen others so now I post a picture so proud of myself and.....I find out I'm banned already







try it yourself..draw a picture of the slingshot that would fit your hand and to your shooting style lets see what you come up with ask yourself does it fit within the thousands of designs,most likely it will









Now I know what slingshot makers go through of course I would seek permission to make and sell but for my own use why not?


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## tubeman (Mar 7, 2011)

Perhaps I should patent this design before you all rush to copy it, btw, it shoots great


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## Chrissz (May 2, 2011)

tubeman said:


> Perhaps I should patent this design before you all rush to copy it, btw, it shoots great


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## gamekeeper john (Apr 11, 2011)

well the way the polls going it looks like we can all coppy whoever designs we want and post on here as long as its not to sell


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## slingshot_sniper (Feb 20, 2011)

tubeman said:


> Perhaps I should patent this design before you all rush to copy it, btw, it shoots great


 looks to me like a starship natural ,do you have copy rights to this?


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## tubeman (Mar 7, 2011)

I think that would be an acceptable result john


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## NaturalFork (Jan 21, 2010)

JoergS said:


> I think everybody should be allowed to copy, but not to sell a clone.
> 
> I don't think this rule would harm vendors, as those who are able to make a slingshot in professional quality wouldn't buy it anyway. Most people can't, though.
> 
> ...


I couldn't have said it better. Plus there is no way to stop people from cloning, they just wont post it here. So the cloning already happens. I have copied (well attempted to copy) designs but I ALWAYS ask first. And designs like the A+ I could never make myself ... that is why I bought a couple of them. Might as well get the real deal.


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## tubeman (Mar 7, 2011)

slingshot_sniper said:


> Perhaps I should patent this design before you all rush to copy it, btw, it shoots great


 looks to me like a starship natural ,do you have copy rights to this?








[/quote]

Sadly no







The copyright is held by the Intergalactic Federation of Planets and I understand that Tiberius Kirk has first options on it


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## slingshot_sniper (Feb 20, 2011)

tubeman said:


> Perhaps I should patent this design before you all rush to copy it, btw, it shoots great


 looks to me like a starship natural ,do you have copy rights to this?








[/quote]

Sadly no







The copyright is held by the Intergalactic Federation of Planets and I understand that Tiberius Kirk has first options on it








[/quote]

Dam!! ah well









i'm copying it anyway I have Kirks permission


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Here is my take.
If I put a design in the shared designs forum... then copy and modify away. No permission or special consideration required. That's what it's THERE for!

Then there's other designs such as Jeff's design that Smitty did as well, and that I actually released extremely similar drawings of prior to that... it just happens sometimes. When you start thinking ergonomics and the need to take pressure off your wrist (Jiujitsu injury related in my case) then canted handles and finger thumb supports are a natural result.. surely no intentional copying of intellectual property there.

Next, there's a third level... and that is intentional copying of another person's current production design.
As it so happens I've had more than a few people copy my Predator, Cowboy, Dragon, Hathcock and a few SEAL designs... some have the decency to ask first, some don't... and some will copy as close as they can, claim the design is their own and then take it to ebay and other places to sell.
Generally if a person merely asks me I'll wholeheartedly give permission to copy, have for personal use and post about it... and if a person doesn't ask first and then posts on it I consider it bad manners but not an insult.
BUT if a person just outright steals a design calls it their own and then actually sells the thing... that is insulting to me.

Now let me give you a little background information... Designing Slingshots is not my first "rodeo". I've designed knives, unique knife components that are in production today, gun parts and modifications, archery stuffs and many other things as well. 
My first love WAS knives, but after a couple of different well known custom knifemakers ripped off my ideas and called them their own... I got so disgusted with the whole process and scene it's really hard for me to even look at a spyderco knife now.
I don't want the same to happen with slingshots.

Certain parts of the slingshot simply aren't patentable and to get around a patent on those parts that are, all you have to do is marginally change dimensions on one part of the design... ask the Chinese... but let me ask you is it RIGHT to do so?
Ask yourself, why are you copying in the first place... is it because you wish to try out a new idea... is it because the design may contain superior elements you want to incorporate... or is it you simply want to make money off someone else's ideas and aren't creative enough to come up with your own stuff?
Your answer to the last question determines whether you're an enthusiast or are just an uncreative POS.


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## gamekeeper john (Apr 11, 2011)

tubeman said:


> I think that would be an acceptable result john


thanks, if thats the way the poll ends i have no problem at all with anybody coppying ANY of my designs and posting here on the forum for there own use, as you probaly know i always post designs in the shared designs section and show exactly how i make my catapults and bands on my youtube channel, its about getting people into catapult shooting, not about moaning your head of if someone has a design simalar to yours, john


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## alfshooter (May 11, 2011)

La realidad es que toda la gente comparte ideas en todas las partes de el mundo , y eso es muy bonito .

LO que esta claro es que hay que RESPETAR LA O LAS PATENTES DE LOS FABRICANTES .

Yo he copiado ideas de todos vosotros y he mejorado mucho , pero nunca haria comercio con patentes de otras personas.

*( uso traductor , no distorsionen lo que quiero decir )







*


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## alfshooter (May 11, 2011)

Posted Today, 09: 18 PM
The reality is that all people share ideas in all parts of the world, and that is very nice.
What is clear is that we must respect the O the patent of the manufacturers.
I've copied ideas from all of you and I have improved a lot, but never would trade with patents of others.
(translator, not distort what I mean)


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## hunterich (Jan 17, 2011)

I cannot see the problem with copying if your doing it for yourself and not make a profit and doing it for yourself. But if you selling other peoples designs and such then that shouldn't be allowed.


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## Brendan (Mar 8, 2011)

There are only so many ways one can design a slingshot. I love Perrys A+ PS-1 and it is one of my favorite two slingshots. However you can not tell me Perry was the first to use a pinkie hole grip. The Chinese have been doing it for an awful long time and even my grandfather used to make me something similar using welded bent wire. It is like saying to a motor vehicle manufacturer you can have a electric windows because we did first. I have bought slingshots from most vendors on this site and love them all (especially Bill Hays products). However this attitude of don't copy me is extremely childish and looks unprofessional and in all honesty turns me off buying from those complaining. This industry is extremely limited to try new innovative was to market your product like bills trick shots and competitions. Using the site moderator as your policeman is not how the slingshot community should operate.


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## Pro-Shot (UK) Catapults (Apr 21, 2010)

Hi copy wright/reg designe/pattents ext are all a total waist of time if you dont have the hard cash to back them up? and not a lot of People do??A lot of what we are talking about brings people morels in to play some people have them so dont FACT!. Over the last few week i have had a lot of people ask me If i mind if they make a milbro catapult ? for there own use! .We have no problem with this at all.Were i draw the line is when i see my companys name being used as a tool to help with the sale of other peoples catapuls and slingshots and band sets ext. Needless to say not on this forum but it does go on . .We and i think the rest of catapult/slingshot manufactures try to bring new and exiting products to the world but i think we are kidding our self if we are under the impression that we are ever going to stop people from riping off our products. Ebay have a members Verio program what a total waist of time that is. . I think it has been said befor there is only so much you can do with the letter Y . I feal sorry for our wood slingshot manufacturers these are the easy one to copy but even Bill Hayes has had his slingshots riped off and made in wood and posted all over UK ebay all i can say is People in the know IE the slingshot/ cattapult community know were to go for the real products. Some time in the not to distant future some one will bye one of the rip off slingshot/catapults and GOD help them if that a product ever fails,were do they go? when they have lost an EYE through bad craftmanship/ designe ext some slingshot/catapults have only been designed to be made in the material they started life in? and no more. When you bye a catapult/ slingshot
are you sure if the company you are dealing with has a product liability insurance? this may be one way to stop them RIPING OFF ?? ASK FIRST 
or am i going OVER THE TOP ON THIS ONE, just my two bob Pete


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## Tex-Shooter (Dec 17, 2009)

Sometimes it is obvious who made the original design and sometimes it is not (a lot has been done in the past). When someone does not take out a patent on a design, it is impossible to police that design from being copied. I really frown on people copying and selling slingshots without the designer permission, but I don't think that there is much you can do about it. -- Tex-shooter


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## Hugues (Mar 27, 2010)

You're absolutely Right, Hogancasting.

The catty you offered me has nothing to do with a genuine "Milbro""...it is simply way ahead.
Looks like it has the same shape? No way, what you've brought to the original pattern is pure magic.
You would just have it made in larger sizes and a"flatband" attachment option...nothing will compare to it.
You're close to produce the "1911 Browning" of all catties.
Think about it, while Milbro has never done.
You are the best, mate.


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## tubeman (Mar 7, 2011)

slingshot_sniper said:


> Perhaps I should patent this design before you all rush to copy it, btw, it shoots great


 looks to me like a starship natural ,do you have copy rights to this?








[/quote]

Sadly no







The copyright is held by the Intergalactic Federation of Planets and I understand that Tiberius Kirk has first options on it








[/quote]

Dam!! ah well









i'm copying it anyway I have Kirks permission









[/quote]








sniper







I suspect that we have the right attitude in this HEAVY debate. Life is too short to worry about Slingshot designs and patents. Let's just fill the Skillet


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## A+ Slingshots (Jan 22, 2010)

Dear Slingshot Forum Members, Moderators and Aaron,

My wife and I have thought and prayed about this quite a bit since yesterday for a solution. To us this is a bit of a moral issue that we feel we have maybe unintentionally helped to create and so we are sorry for that. Morality, common courtesy and even common sense can be encouraged but it's quite another thing to enforce.... trust me on this one, I know from over 20 years experience working in my calling.

Since copying my design seems to be at the center of all this controversy again and again let me make an offer to everyone. I believe A+ Slingshots like many others has contributed to and continues to contribute in positive and unique ways to this interesting sport since launching our little business early last year.
We don't like feeling upset and offended at anyone or about anything... so we have made the choice to not be any more! Friends, let's not bicker anymore life if far too short for this kind of thing and slingshot shooting and making is far more fun!!!

We are just trying to make a living the best we know how, some will respect that others won't, that's life.... that being said.... If anyone wants to make a copy, clone, close similar, doppleganger, etc; of my slingshots for their own use (please not for sale), I will offer a paper (or PDF) of the exact templates that I work from, plus tips for making them for $5 (plus shipping if you want me to sent out a hard copy out). In this way you know you have my permission to make a "One Off" and have paid a nominal fee to do so. I believe it's a Win/Win solution for everyone.

Why not get the exact specs that I work from and worked hard to design and refine for well over a year now. Don't guess when you can get the dimensions of what we believe to be one of the finest unique slingshots ever to be designed and made!!!!!!

For those who don't make stuff or who are ready to step up to a quality made collectible "Pinkie Hole Grip" or other "Original" A+ Slingshot designed and made by me, then contact me as always through my website or by email to order. BTW if you have one of my creations from last year I believe it was very good..... but we have retooled and tweaked our design templates for even better feel and performance several times since then and we believe they are even better now!!!

Of course this is all a moot point for those who don't believe in or follow a code of honor. I do, so I just appeal to those who do as well and leave to rest up to each person.

Best as Always,
Perry (A+) Adkisson


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## tubeman (Mar 7, 2011)

Sorry, but I live in the UK and you sound like one of those weird Preachers from the US midwest. Why do you and your wife have to pray then offer templates for $5 ?? This might get me banned but it will be worth it as I think you are a ripoff merchant. I say again, $5 for a template









"Why not get the exact specs that I work from and worked hard to design and refine for well over a year now " You are having a laugh with that statement


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## lightgeoduck (Apr 3, 2011)

A+ Slingshots said:


> Dear Slingshot Forum Members, Moderators and Aaron,
> 
> My wife and I have thought and prayed about this quite a bit since yesterday for a solution. To us this is a bit of a moral issue that we feel we have maybe unintentionally helped to create and so we are sorry for that. Morality, common courtesy and even common sense can be encouraged but it's quite another thing to enforce.... trust me on this one, I know from over 20 years experience working in my calling.
> 
> ...


You know I kept my mouth shut, out in the public forum,(you know what I am talking about), but this really takes the cake

So I guess even if they keep the rules as it is if someone asked you for permission it would be NO... no wait it isn't now, it's give me 5 dollars and you can make a "one off"... Yeah that's the way to squeeze that turnip..

"following a code of honor" I guess that isn't insulting to the people that think giving credit to the "originator" is enough... especially for what... hobbiests that want to give DIY a shot,,, and rather than re inventing the wheel choose to give a respected slingshot a try... and then want to share in their accomplishment?

Don't school me on honor,, because 1 you don't know me from Adam, 2 you are mixing the lines up between business and hobby.. plus practice what you preach,,,, and not weasel your way out of it by squeezing a CYA post in another's thread AFTER THE FACT.

Why am so ANAL about certain stuff? well that is just the way I am when it comes to the principalities of things.

*To everyone else: (Especially the seasoned members and staff)*
*
*
I apologizing for this out burst, because I know how disruptive rants can be to a forum,, and I hope my embarrassment can be forgiven, I will not continue this dialogue because it brings out the worst in me,,, and in the future I hope I can display the true generosity, and good humor I have (to the best of my abilities on the interwebz)

LGD 
*
*
*
*


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## Performance Catapults (Feb 3, 2010)

Last week I received confirmation of my provisional patent application, from my patent attorney. So, there is now a provisional patent filed for the EPS.


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## gamekeeper john (Apr 11, 2011)

tubeman said:


> Sorry, but I live in the UK and you sound like one of those weird Preachers from the US midwest. Why do you and your wife have to pray then offer templates for $5 ?? This might get me banned but it will be worth it as I think you are a ripoff merchant. I say again, $5 for a template
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## dallasdeadeye (May 22, 2011)

Isn't that what this forum is for, so people can learn from eachother. If u don't want ur design stolen take the steps necessary to prevent that. Once you've posted it if it's a good design people by nature will copy it.


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## slingshot awesome (Dec 7, 2010)

who gives a rats a ** as long as you give credit were credit is do . DONT MAKE MOUNTAINS OUT OF MOLE HILLS if you no wat i mean and dont get mad if some one is using your frame design if he/she is just learning to learn how to use the tools given properly and make art and mayem(case and point a+ & joerg ) just get along and put it behind you and move on


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## haertig (Jul 30, 2010)

nieten7642 said:


> After all, slingshots are weapons that date back thousands of years.


Not quite "thousands", but your point is still valid. Before slingshots could be invented, a stable rubber compound to make the bands with had to be invented. And that wasn't done until the mid-1800's.


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## Flatband (Dec 18, 2009)

Well I know Tex and myself have probably the oldest custom patterns out there and both of ours have been copied and used but the nice thing about it was that we were asked first if it was okay. I have no problem with it if done that way. That is the right way. These people that used our designs also were not selling them. If you copy a vendors design with intent on selling them then I say Nay Nay get the heck away! A few of the people on this thread stated it correctly- there is really not much you can do about it unless you apply for a patent. Even then it is not an easy issue to contend with. Nice job with this poll Moderators-tough issue to deal with. Flatband


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## Peresh (May 3, 2010)

Yea but how is any of this Aaron and company's responsibility ? If someone copies a design, why is Aaron and company accountable ? He nor any of his moderators are !

This forum doesn't keep a database of ALL the slingshots in the market and shouldn't be responsible for babysitting adults! They are not the slingshot cyberspace gestapo nor should they be. When they play police, things like censorships, deleted threads, closing threads and the uglyness of banning comes into play. No one should be banned for copying a slingshot that they want to use personally. It's really BS at play here.

So if you are an advertiser on this site, don't cry to the forum owner here just because someone has copied your slingshot design. Send an email to the person copying it or patent your slingshot (if that at all possible) and keep this forum and it's moderators clear of your problems. It affects good people who are not sellers but want to experiment with designs, improve and also create better ones. It's a **** "U" shape with a stem after all. You can make fancy cuts, and shapes etc It remains the same shape as a slingshot.

This is a public forum. Freedom of speech and expression is part of being an American. This forum should implement policies not to get involved in policing people. It should be between the copier and maker regardless of how much money has exchanged hands.

Peresh.


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## A+ Slingshots (Jan 22, 2010)

Wow...... You have got to be kidding me......









I believe that my character and integrity speak for themselves, and in no way should my good name be called into question here and by people who don't know me or even have a history with me here on this forum or otherwise!!! I am incensed that I would be the recipient of such vehement words directed my way on a forum that I have called "home base" and that I feel in some little part have helped to grow in the last year.

Way to twist the situation and insinuate wrong motives which there are none!! Most people are "weird" in some way as evidenced by the "odd" negative responses here to my attempt to find a mutually acceptable way to deal with this issue.

Pointless insanity I would guess to even try to continue this discussion any further!!!!!


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## Peresh (May 3, 2010)

Perry,

Is your response directed towards me ? Not sure.

P.


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## maljo (Nov 27, 2010)

I've voted: yes to copy for own use, no to selling here - this because I feel that careful thought and good craftsmanship should be rewarded but that progress in slingshot design can only happen if we can 'copy-with-what-we-think-are-improvements'.

The only design I've come across that is truly radical (in my experience - and I am open to correction) is Bill Hayes' Pocket predator which is why I bought one from him (and another from Pete Hogan). But even here there must be a possibility that someone might come up with a variant on Bill's design incorporating (say) a palm swell or a thumb support extended down onto the hyperthenar eminence or a clamp system for fixing flatbands that might constitute an improvement in stability of grip, better support when using hunting bands and quicker band change. We mustn't outlaw such possibilities if we're interested in progress.

If we're really thinking in terms of...'that's a rip-off - he's obviously just copied X's design and there's no attempt at improvement', then the 'sell no clones' option covers this. BUT I would urge that moderators, before banning a vendor, consider very carefully the question,' is this a rip-off or is it an attempt to add something different to an existing idea?'. If the former is the case there is no loss to the community in banning the rip-off artist but we must not stop incremental development in design just because we can see where the innovation started out from.

Finally I would like to object to the attacks on Perry based on his Christian beliefs. I think Perry's offer to sell the templates he uses is not objectionable because the buyer can then make an exact copy (or clone) of an A+ design incorporating all Perry's developments. If, on the other hand, you think that his designs are good but would be better if 'this' or 'that' was just a little different then make a non-clone variant on the A+ design to suit yourself, after all pinky holes and ergonomic forks are so widespread as to be nobody's invention. If Perry came up with the idea of selling his templates through prayer, then that's how he and his wife approach moral questions. It wouldn't be my way, it may or may not be an approach attractive to other members, but I really did think the derision heaped on Perry because of his faith was distasteful. There are Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims and (as God knows) all sorts of other people out there shooting slingshots and as long as they're all shooting at targets and not each other we're doing fine - if you don't like someone's idea the criticise it but leave out the gratuitous attacks on the person and his/her faith.


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## Nico (Sep 10, 2010)

NoSugarRob said:


> this is down to morals i think ? .. if you see a guy selling cattys for an income (its a business for this guy), would you copy his design then advertise it in direct competition, side by side, in the same market place ?......... you choose.... some will think it ok, others will not. would it be ok to copy just one for yourself, for your collection ? .. you decide for your self gents......
> I think that if you're a member or visitor of these forums, and you dont see a design in the shared design thread you should approach the guy with the frame you want to copy, tell him / her what you would like to do (whole truth) and if u gets the go ahead all is splendid....


What Rob said is the best way to look at this situation. Respect for the maker is the starting point then if you like it that much and want to make one for personal use show the respect to its creator by asking.

Again the thing is many slingshots look so alike that its hard to say, what is a clone and what isnt.

Unless you see some guy constantly coming up with slingshots to sell that look like what other makers have then you have problem.

Nico


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## Nico (Sep 10, 2010)

Oh and for the record,

I make my own slingshots and I have my own styles based on family traditional slingshot methods of fabrication and attachments which have been made this way for 3 generations. I believe respect should go to the origins of the designs and techniques of a given style and not smeared with ignorance and the need to one up someone out of pure competitive envy.

I have no desire to be a vendor because I did sell slingshots when I was 11 or 12 years old that was over 20 years ago. I didnt like the legal trouble that came with it and now I dont desire nor have the time for this.

Personally I have no desire to copy any of the cut out slingshots I see here or any where else and in the event that I make my second board cut ever which I havent made in over 20 years, I will make sure to think of the basic design and keep it as practical as possible.

Good will to all makers and shooters

If anyone ever wants a slingshot of my style then I am open to trades and the like but that is not something I am worried about right at the moment nor will I sell a slingshot.

Nico


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## A+ Slingshots (Jan 22, 2010)

Peresh said:


> Perry,
> 
> Is your response directed towards me ? Not sure.
> 
> P.


No....


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Nico, I sold a slingshot once to a forum member -- and got my money 6 months later.


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## saskredneck (Mar 20, 2011)

ok ill start by saying i havent read this entire thread but this has been discussed on the one of the knife forums i frequent. when a tool is made with an intended use eventually the best designs emerge even on opposite sides of the world made by totally diff people they will look simmilar. for example skinning knives will usually have upswept blades because they are the most efficient at skinning. the same will go for slingshots. as a knifemaker any of my unique designs probly will resemble someone elses somewhere in this world. and if anyone does copy my designs i feel flattered.


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## bootneck (Feb 20, 2011)

gamekeeper john i whole heartedly agree with your statement, 
I'll cut whatever shape i want out of wood or metal, if it looks like someone elses i probly wont even notice, i don't sell catties and never will, i do give them away to friends and family but no-one i know would actually pay for anything they can make themselves or ask me to make, i never ask for credit or ever recieve any, also if i make somthing and i've never seen it before then I've designed it just as much as anyone else who makes the same thing before or after me.

If i was a seller then i'd be annoyed if someone sold copies but for heaven's sake i wouldnt give a stuff if they made there own for themselves, for some people the fun is in making it for themselves and just cos they made it rather than bought it from me, well making my own cattie isnt stealing from anyones buisness so like i said originally, when i set down with a jigsaw and some wood ill cut whatever shape i want out of my wood if it looks like anyone elses well im not going to sell it and i wouldn't even notice if it did turn out like anyone elses design.

My wood, my tools, my imagination and my caterpult.

Now tapered bands, they really are a great idea who dreampt them up? i thought i did when i was 8 years old 15 years ago.

One thing that does bother me though is how does all this infighting look to someone new to the hobbie? infighting and tension isnt the best first impression to anyone new and if we really are looking to evolve and expand this sport, fear of sharing designs and thinly veiled tension is what will kill the development of this sport off or stop it growing and that wont be great for any vendors or hobbiests will it.


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## Popcorn (Mar 25, 2011)

harpersgrace said:


> The problem isn't cloning, it's the fact that by nature slingshots are going to be similar, that two or more people may come up with a similar design with out "cloning" and who has the right to judge what is similar and what is cloned.


I agree with this. I would also go further and say that everyone who makes any slingshot is building upon that which has gone before, for perhaps thousands of years. It seems a bit ludicrous for a maker to have qualms with someone else making a similar slingshot. No one alive can claim to have made the first slingshot, and has copied plenty themselves, whether they will admit it or not.


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## SlingMan (Jul 4, 2010)

There's 2 attorneys in my family and I e-mailed one of them this thread and he simply couldn't quit laughing. If you make enough money selling sling shots to warrant a patent that will hold up in court and most DO NOT, then you have more money than most here ever will.

There's just SO MUCH involved in patent laws. Not my opinion but a family member who is an attorney.

Bottom line: *IF YOU DON'T WONT SOMETHING COPIED, DON'T PLACE IT IN PUBLIC VIEW!!! *

Morals can't even be brought into question until precise definitions are given and legal gymnastics addressed. If this keeps going we'll have to have a *philosophy class to address moral reasoning and believe me no one wants this!

Jim, if you have a patent attorney guaranteeing your EPS design is safe from copying, he's simply taking your money. Just friendly advice here. Ask him if he'll prosecute the case for FREE. Nope! Your expense buddy! If you're selling that many sling shots I'm in the wrong business. No offense either. Just trying to strike some reality into folks heads.

BTW, Nikon just sued Sigma for an alleged copyright violation. Google the details and follow-up occasionally and watch where it goes. Nowhere! It will be tied up for years in court. Millions of dollars spent and absolutely nothing solved. Why? Because of shaky laws that are easily bypassed by just a slight difference. The threat of a lawsuit keeps more people intact than fear from actually being punished for it. Think about cost versus benefit. Which way does the scales tip?

Opinions were asked for here, so that's mine!*


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## haertig (Jul 30, 2010)

I propose that nobody be allowed to sell anything here unless they are willing to forgo any claim that they "own" a design. People who wish to claim some kind of ownership can do this by posting a link to their personal/business website. And they can sell their products from their separate website, but not from SlingshotForums.com If you post a picture of what you sell on your separate website on SlinghshotForums.com, then you have released it "into the wild" so to speak (unless you have it patented). You should expect that your item will be reverse engineered and copied. That's the way it happens in the real world, whether we like it or not.

If SlingshotForums.com decides to become an "enforcer", I predict that the site will decline rapidly and lose many members. Which is fine if that's what the site owners decide. It's a privite deal here, and you play by the rules or you leave.

In my mind, slingshot shooting should be fun, not some kind of ridiculous contest with people bickering over who "owns" a bump, a divot, a hole, or a protrusion on a basic shape like the letter "Y". FWIW, I do not think that anyone on these forums has "designed" a slingshot. What I would say is that people here "make" slingshots. If you want to distinguish yourself, do so by crafting your slingshot nicely, thus enticing people to buy it. Sell it at a reasonable price. Have good customer service. If you really think what you make is unique, get a patent on it and enforce the patent. Don't expect SlingshotForums.com to take on this responsibility for you.

My words don't mean that I encourage copying someone's labors and selling it yourself. I am only saying that SlingshotForums.com should not try to be the worldwide clearing house for slingshot examples (I am purposely not calling them "designs" here).


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## NoSugarRob (Jun 3, 2010)

this thread is sad... it makes me sad... why insult Perrys beliefs man ? .. thats low... people can read a lot about someone who does things like that....... i have purchased a couple of times from Perry. his product, service and attitude are PERFECT IN EVERY WAY..


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## colt (Jun 8, 2010)

i think everything is plane to see here. some vendors have chimed in here, and you can make what you want of the poll. i favor bill's opinion. slingshots are pretty simple and it'd be easy wind up with an ergonomic design that looks a lot like another ergonomic design. i recently drew and cutout a design that ended up looking a little like a hathcock sniper. i didn't mean to copy it. i simply thought that an offset handle with thumb and index groves would feel good. though, it is clearly not a trace copy. this is where i would draw the line. if you want to actually copy a design, ask, and don't try and sell it. common sense and manners here. even though it'd be pointless to try and rip off say... performance catapaults, it's rude anyway. if you would like to ask to try and make a miltiplex copy of a design you like but can't afford, i don't see a problem with that as long as credit is cited.


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## YonakaYamako (Apr 21, 2011)

Dag! I am so glad I do the weird and natural. Nico and jmplsnt are the only people I have borrowed from and that's bands and pouches. Anything else I do is because I want to know if it will actually work and not blow up in my face.

As to cloning, nah... I'm not into repeating myself in anything I do. That's just boring.

My 2 cents for what it's worth.


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

You know what makes me sad?

This poll has by now seen more than 1400 views, and counting.

It has been a long time since a genuine slingshot presentation has seen that many views. And never that fast.

Maybe we should rename the forum to "slingshotdebatingforum.com".

As a moderator, I feel I don't want to spend my time with this affair any longer. I will focus on slingshots only. So those who want to copy are now safe from me, wether they sell or not. I still frown upon cloning and won't comment on a thread should I not see that it brings something new to the table. But I don't want to be the slingshot design policeman aynmore.

We had clear rules. I never liked them 100%, but I lived with them anyway as they have been quite easy to understand and enforce. Now it seems even if we change the rules, they will be debatable anyway and therefore they will be worthless the day we publish them. As soon as we enforce them, the same debate will spring up again.

It seems like the outcome of this poll will be that it won't be OK to sell a clone. That is reasonable, but how are us mods gonna enfore this? It does NOT take the burden of decisionmaking from our shoulders. Is it a clone or is it not? What if the cloner says he only sells his personal, used clone and no more? No matter how we decide, the debate will start again. So are we going to have a poll every time someone complains about beeing cloned? This is ridiculous.

I, for one, wanna spend my time here discussing slingshots, not legal issues. So I am out of this entirely. Have fun debating this fruitless, pointless, frustrating issue that ruined my Saturday.

Jörg


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## wd40 (Jul 19, 2010)

"Sorry, but I live in the UK and you sound like one of those weird Preachers from the US midwest."

1) I'm sorry that you live in the UK also.

2) Perry doesn't sound like one of those weird preachers.

3) Weird preachers are found everywhere.

4) So lay off the US midwest.


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## Performance Catapults (Feb 3, 2010)

SlingMan said:


> Jim, if you have a patent attorney guaranteeing your EPS design is safe from copying, he's simply taking your money. Just friendly advice here. Ask him if he'll prosecute the case for FREE. Nope! Your expense buddy! If you're selling that many sling shots I'm in the wrong business. No offense either. Just trying to strike some reality into folks heads.


Joe,

Of course, no offence taken, but I have put as much time into researching patents as I did the EPS concept. A provisional patent is good for one year, and I filed a utility patent. It won't even be reviewed, it just sits on file and protects my idea for 12 months. Odds are that nothing will go beyond what it is now, but I'm positoned if it does.







It cost me about a weeks pay, nothing more than spilled milk.

The reason for pursuing the patent was mainly just to have my name attached to the idea. Ever thought of an idea and then see it materialize by someone else? It's merely "stepping up to the plate".


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## philly (Jun 13, 2010)

*I, for one, wanna spend my time here discussing slingshots, not legal issues. So I am out of this entirely. Have fun debating this fruitless, pointless, frustrating issue that ruined my Saturday.

Jörg

*I totaly agree Jorg. 
Philly


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

If someone could come up with a slingshot design that would be a hit everytime I would say Patent. But, what we do is what most other people do not. If there are millions to be made from a particular design say like a tire that will grip the road no matter what the conditions are and will never ever go flat and never wear out Patent. But a slingshot, unless there is something truly special and significant about it, it just might be duplicated and even sold without penalty.


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## SuwaneeRick (Apr 4, 2011)

Perry was the first vendor I bought from after finding this forum. He was awesome to buy from. A real gentleman. It pisses me off to see him slandered in this thread. The slanderers have lost any respect from me. I have also bought from John Webb, and he was just as much of a gentleman. I would be pissed off if anyone slandered him.


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## Tom Hudson (Jan 23, 2011)

As a retired knife maker I can tell you in the knife world everybody copies everybody. I wonder if there is a knife maker in the world that hasn't made a Bowie knife? 

If you make slipjoint or folding knives at some point you will build a Trapper Pattern. I have no clue who built the first Trapper pattern over a hundred years ago but I have build a few hundred of them! - So who ever built the first one - I think you if your still around and on a slingshot forum reading this. 

As a full time engraver I can tell you we have about 600 members in the Engraving Guild - the whole world! 600! Pretty small club but Ican also tell you 99% of us in the guild use engraving designs that someone came up with maybe a hundred years ago!

Slingshots - The way I see it there's only so much you can do with a "Y". All the bands or tubes come from a handful of vendors. So I would guess with more guys making Slingshots every day, there will be more starting to look like brothers & sisters - pretty hard for the slingshotworld not to have inbreeding -

It's like any other business, the cream will rise to the top- The makers who use the best material - The makers who shows exceptional workmanship will shine , those who don't will fade away. Never fails. 

That's the way I see it.

Tom

By the way I up-dated my web site today - Stop in when you get a chance. I think you will enjoy the visit.

My link


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## mr.joel (Dec 21, 2009)

It is good to see a vote was allowed on this, finally, but I think something has been overlooked: why is it that vendors are separated in the voting cast(e?) It would seem to we are all the same in a vote. Or is this not so? They are free to state their opinions like anybody else, there is no need to have six categories vs. three, if we're all of the same status in said vote.

While selling someone's design is uncouth, much of the customer base resides here I would think. Many would choose not to buy your products, making your venture seemingly unprofitable. I think it is pretty self governing and there is little need for policing. Most of the policing which I see is emotionally based stemming from personal opinions of the moderators and vendors rather than the will of the people here, at least in the realm of those not selling their product. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what it seems like.

There are, however other instances where people were obviously taking someone's design and even trying to sell it here. It is understandable why they do, but I think the moderators should avoid policing them. I also think we should be free to chastise those the pull the proverbial p!$$ freely. This would curtail the bulk of it, I would think. I do think it's wrong to sell other people's distinctive designs, but making your own copy is fine. Why wouldn't you want to experiment, and after all you can't be expected to buy every single one you want to try to find your groove? You might buy the real one after trying it out, I certainly have done that. Or you might discover that one wasn't for you, done that too. Permission should be given, it is the polite way. I'm guilty on that one, I'll admit, but won't do it again as I'm not out to upset anyone.


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## NightKnight (Dec 16, 2009)

The vote was split because I think it is important to understand how the vendors opinions may differ within their group. The results show that they do have differing opinions. Either way, their votes do not carry any more or less weight but should be understood because they have more to lose.


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## mr.joel (Dec 21, 2009)

Tom Hudson said:


> As a retired knife maker I can tell you in the knife world everybody copies everybody. I wonder if there is a knife maker in the world that hasn't made a Bowie knife?
> 
> If you make slipjoint or folding knives at some point you will build a Trapper Pattern. I have no clue who built the first Trapper pattern over a hundred years ago but I have build a few hundred of them! - So who ever built the first one - I think you if your still around and on a slingshot forum reading this.
> 
> ...


These are some excellent points.


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Tom Hudson said:


> pretty hard for the slingshotworld not to have inbreeding -


Yeah, all the ones I've ever made look pretty inbred!


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## haertig (Jul 30, 2010)

JoergS said:


> You know what makes me sad?
> 
> This poll has by now seen more than 1400 views, and counting.
> 
> ...


Don't you think the high hit count on this thread is because we all got a private email asking us to come participate? The one with the subject line "We need your opinion on Slingshot Cloning". I'm assuming everybody got the same email I did. I can't imagine my opinion is so imporant that someone would invite ME AND ONLY ME to come participate. If so - thanks! I'm flattered! But I figured the email went out to all members.


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## Tom Hudson (Jan 23, 2011)

M_J said:


> pretty hard for the slingshotworld not to have inbreeding -


Yeah, all the ones I've ever made look pretty inbred!








[/quote]

I knew you would like that


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## radray (Apr 30, 2011)

Friends now that we have aired out what bugs us and expressed our views let us not fight any further. We are like a family here and even family gets into heated arguments at times so let's learn to forgive and move forward. We like slingshots, that is what bonds us here to this forum. Let's get back to talking about what we like and learning from each other. Personal attacks are not necessary. We have stated our thoughts and opinions now let's get back to why we are here. The people who are in dispute should resolve their differences on their own as adults. Disputes should not be a team sport; that only leads to more confusion and problems.

I am new here, but I have been welcomed and have been helped when I asked for assistance. I have learned a lot from many of you. I used to shoot slingshots in the Philippines when I was a boy, but have stumbled into again after 30+ long years. When I held one again, it felt good in my hands and brought back memories of me plinking and hunting in the fields. I am sure that many of you are here because there is something about a slingshot that makes you happy as well.

Make peace, friends and slingshots not war. We are all kids at heart and deep inside we would rather play with our toys than fight with each other.

Raymond


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## Guest (May 29, 2011)

haertig said:


> Don't you think the high hit count on this thread is because we all got a private email asking us to come participate? The one with the subject line "We need your opinion on Slingshot Cloning". I'm assuming everybody got the same email I did.


That's correct. I got this message also and I voted for the last option: *I am NOT a vendor. People SHOULD be allowed to clone designs and show OR sell them here without permission from the original designer* Why? because we had this very same discussion a thousand times in watch forums and I tell you that a Rolex Submariner is probably the most copied watch in the world. As long as another manufacturer uses it's onw brand name the watch can look like a 100% clone but still isn't and cannot be considered a counterfeit. Rolex probably is rather not ammused, but they can't a darn thing about it either. Now we talk about a several thousand euro/dollar item here with a huge multi hundred million euro/dollar worldmarket and not - forgive me - a cheap slingshot. So this poll makes me rather grin and I honestly can't take it fully serious, although I do understand very well that some designers are bothered when others come up with similars designs. But hey, you can't always invent the world new, can you









cheers


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## mr.joel (Dec 21, 2009)

E=mc² said:


> Don't you think the high hit count on this thread is because we all got a private email asking us to come participate? The one with the subject line "We need your opinion on Slingshot Cloning". I'm assuming everybody got the same email I did.


That's correct. I got this message also and I voted for the last option: *I am NOT a vendor. People SHOULD be allowed to clone designs and show OR sell them here without permission from the original designer* Why? because we had this very same discussion a thousand times in watch forums and I tell you that a Rolex Submariner is probably the most copied watch in the world. As long as another manufacturer uses it's onw brand name the watch can look like a 100% clone but still isn't and cannot be considered a counterfeit. Rolex probably is rather not ammused, but they can't a darn thing about it either. Now we talk about a several thousand euro/dollar item here with a huge multi hundred million euro/dollar worldmarket and not - forgive me - a cheap slingshot. So this poll makes me rather grin and I honestly can't take it fully serious, although I do understand very well that some designers are bothered when others come up with similars designs. But hey, you can't always invent the world new, can you









cheers
[/quote]
A cheap slingshot? well I guess when we are comparing to Rolex watches, maybe. Some are not so cheap, at least to me @ around UK50P for some of mine from Pete Hogan. However I am starting to agree with you guys, you're making some good horse sense. It would seem the moderators are weary of dealing with it as well. Maybe the free market is the way to go.


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## NightKnight (Dec 16, 2009)

Valued members, I appreciate everyone taking the time to cast their vote on this, and you have spoken. The results of the poll at the time of close, with 198 votes, are:

67% - People SHOULD be allowed to clone designs and show them here but NOT sell them without the permission from the original designer
21% - People should NOT be allowed to clone designs and show OR sell them here without permission from the original designer
11% - People SHOULD be allowed to clone designs and show OR sell them here without permission from the original designer
The Moderating team and I will no longer enforce anything to do with the cloning of designs. While the administration will not welcome copied designs that are for sale, we are not in a position to evaluate what is a clone or is not. It will be up to the community to self police on this issue.

The matter is now closed.


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