# Active Shooting For An "Aimer"?



## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

I've noticed dgui has been getting fps increases by active shooting, it seems to be a common trend on his youtube channel lately. I'm not (naturally) an "instinctive" shooter, however, I try and practice instinctive shooting everyday. Is there a way to active shoot as a "aimer" and has anyone done this and seen success?






Thanks,

Clever Moniker


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## squirrel squasher (May 17, 2013)

I have changed my ways recently. I really believe that the trick is pulling the frame away and already placing the pouch attheanchor point. Also you have to shoot.a little faster. It takes about 1000 shoots to be hitting consistently. I watched dugi's pouch release instruction videos, but they did not help me. MJ suggest they pulling from the anchor point, and I immediately improved.


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## joseph_curwen (Feb 8, 2010)

Practice, practice, and then, practice.

Your brain has to memorize all your body position and feelings again and again.

If i could give you one advice: choose a bright ammo to let your brain memorize the trajectory and a target where you can exactly determine the point of impact (a big sheet of cardboard with aiming spot on it). Then, focus only on the point you aim to hit, before the shot, during the shot, and even a couple of seconds after the release (part of the follow through)

When i practice whith a bow (recurve) i use bright orange feathers to clearly follow the trajectory (olways focusing on the point to hit) .

In competition, i use black feathers for not helping others competiors 

So, try it hard, and you will see improvement quickly.


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## Aussie Allan In Thailand (Jan 28, 2013)

I doubt that anyone could call my own style of shooting in anyway similar to what dgui does.

But I sort of aim as I raise and draw my slingshot, along with knowing from hour of practice the exact trajectory of each ammo/shot weight for each distance I shoot at.

Then release immediately upon reaching my full draw, as I continue to draw, for a smooth release.

This occurs in around a second or so.

I have found my point of "aim" exactly coincides with my reaching full draw, or a split second before.

For myself this works dang near perfectly every time; to the point I can put the same weight shot on exactly the same dent in my flattened steel cans every time.

I trust/hope this helps at least a little.

At after 8 pm here, time for my nightly 3 drinks.

Cheers Allan


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## All Buns Glazing (Apr 22, 2012)

I believe it's called "flip shooting", Clever Monicker.


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## ZorroSlinger (Dec 12, 2012)

I believe Rufus Hussey did active shooting and he maybe did not know it but through trial & error practice shooting many years since he was a kid. Courtesy of Jakerock, a slow motion video of Rufus ....


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

One must be VERY skeptical of velocity results claimed by Dgui. He refuses to make a video showing his actual draw length and other factors of his claimed technique. He used to claim great increases in velocity just by a rapid release. That turns out to be false. He then said it was rapid release along with narrow forks. That turned out to be false. He used to claim he did not flip. But now his videos clearly show that he does flip, and he claims he gets higher velocity by some mysterious centrifugal force. All attempts to objectively test his claims have failed to verify his claims. Here is a video which attempts to test his more recent claims and does not get anything like his results.













Play

(<a>Show link</a>)

Of course everyone is free to believe what they want. But faith based slingshot shooting is not likely to lead to positive results.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## Tube_Shooter (Dec 8, 2012)

You can gain a further 10% in fps if you inject snake oil into the elbow joint


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

This subject... well it's a hot potatoe. So I'll be as fast and concise as possible.

Most latex type rubber can only achieve up to 15 degrees more heat when pulled back to it's maximum... as measured by a professional grade infrared thermometer. The Daisy type tubing is like most and can achieve up to 15 Degrees on a cooler day. On a warm day, the difference in heat is not as great. The small and mediuim tubing that Tex sells can get up to 21 degrees warmer when pulled to it's max, so it is faster overall.

Now, here's the thing... how fast does that heat dissipate? Well in tests I've done the heat will dissipate at a rate of around 5 degrees per second for about 2 seconds and then about a degree per second after 2 seconds... on a warm day.

On a cool day, I haven't done tests yet, but I imagine the drop in temperature will be much faster.

Every degree in temperature roughly translates to a 1.5 FPS difference in speed when using 3/8" steel and small tubing that's setup for a 30" max draw.... EVERY setup will vary, with every temperature permutation....

BUT generally speaking, a faster release does translate into higher FPS... just not as much as some would try and lead you to believe though.

Dgui and his videos of "proof"... well it's very easy to see what's happening if you simply stop the video on the frame right before the release and see the length of his draw... the problem is on most of his video "proofs" you can NOT see his back hand to know what he's actually doing... which is why on the video above I made sure that anyone can pause the video of me shooting and see that my draw lengths are almost exactly the same for a fairer comparison.

When the comparison is fairly done... the difference in speed is simply not enough to worry with... one should be more concerned with accuracy and not cranking out an extra 5 or 6 fps.

Below are some stills that were take directly from some of Dguis "proof" videos....

On this video it's difficult to see, but one can extrapolate the angles to get an idea of draw length differences, plus a flipping motion of the holding hand is also evident if you look carefully, top two frames were faster than the bottom two:










On this video the difference in draw is easier to detect, but still it's not conclusive because you still can't see the back hand:










On THIS video Dgui claimed a 100% difference... but as can be clearly seen, the first frameset was the faster series, he simply drew almost twice as far and also flip shot... VERY disingenuous on his part.










So, what you should know is... if you want to shoot faster... draw further!

Start with properly matched bands to you ammo, cut to a length that is close to maxxed out at your draw length.... and

When you are aiming your slingshot... pull back and away directly in line with the back hand on release and you will get just as fast greater speeds as Dgui claims to achieve with his "active shooting".... but you'll be able to be far more accurate.

Forced flip shooting speed difference:






How to do the pulling away technique for aimers:


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## joseph_curwen (Feb 8, 2010)

May i add something?

Active shooting, according to me, is not all about speed of the ammo.
If i am chasing for velocity, i am sticking whith butterfly, with torsten set up. So i am shooting rather light ammos.
The problem, FOR ME, is that i tend to pause my shooting sequence, even if i don't really "aim", as instinctive shooter.

Then, you could achieve a really good accuracy, but it will be more difficult to shoot at moving target.

So i learn now "active shooting", with pretty good results in term of accuracy after one week.

It is also a real pleasure to look at a target and BANG, hit it in a fluid and fast motion.

When i began in archery, i was practicing snap shooting, and i clearly see the parallelism with dgui "active shooting". It was fun to shoot at flying plastic bottle, even tennis ball with a bow.
Then i wanted to have better results in 3D competition, and i quit with snap shooting. Now, it is fairly easy for me to put an arrow in a 15 cm circle at 30 meters, but my shooting style is similar to bill with a slingshot. I am very happy with my results in archery now, but i am not able to hit a moving target anymore... just a choice i made.

In conclusion, i have an enormous respect for shooters like Bill, Dgui, torsten and others in this forum.

Keep open minded, learn, and share knowledge.

Peace.


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

I've found the secret. After every shot I lubricate the shooter with a slug of beer. When I start shooting I can easily see the ammo, but by the sixth beer, I can't see it at all, and that proves it is going faster.


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

My question was (in particular), as an aimer... "has anyone done this and seen success"... I didn't realize this was such a controversial topic as I primarily stay in the hunting section of this forum. Now, Mr. Hayes... you gotta know I think the world of your slingshot and use it non-stop as well as tout it to others... huge respect.

Something does seems "off" here, so I would like to pose the question. What motive would dgui have for falsifying fps? What has he to gain? I would think nothing. I suspect then that 3 options exist:

1) He is getting more fps with the same draw.

2) He isn't getting more fps with the same draw.

3) He believes he is getting more fps with the same draw, but isn't.

It's completely besides the point for me, but did he make the claim he can achieve more fps "active shooting" with the EXACT same draw length? That would be a bit odd, as it wouldn't make sense logically that one could obtain more fps with the exact same draw length "active shooting" as one could "static" shooting. In fact, I think Mr. Hayes that you are spot on when you said:



Bill Hays said:


> So, what you should know is... if you want to shoot faster... draw further!


I'm primarily interested in, using techniques as an aimer to increase fps (as per my original question), even if that means changing my draw length.

I hadn't seen your vid on the "pulling away" technique Mr. Hayes! I like that quite a bit actually, and will practice that tonight once I can sit down and fully watch the vid.  Now, you mentioned the "flipping motion". In your experience can an aimer do the flipping motion and has the flipping motion added more fps (I'd suspect it may by slightly increasing the draw length?)? Can an aimer do both the pulling away technique and the flipping motion? Or is the difference in fps not worth it?

Cheers,

Clever Moniker


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

fps dont mean squat if you cant hit your target. its easier to increase fps, but difficult to learn proper form and technique. fps should be in the middle to low spot on the list of slingshot use.


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

Imperial said:


> fps dont mean squat if you cant hit your target. its easier to increase fps, but difficult to learn proper form and technique. fps should be in the middle to low spot on the list of slingshot use.


Hmmm, well I know I'm not the best Imperial but I feel okay confident I can hit my target.

I'm unaware of any past history between anyone on this forum and it's really none of my business. However, I get the impression it's somehow offensive to suggest an aimer like myself try and employ various techniques which may yield an increase in fps through increasing draw length? Call it whatever you want... "active shooting", "flip shooting" or whatever... Is this the case... :S


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## Aussie Allan In Thailand (Jan 28, 2013)

Well I have the highest respect possible for Mr Bill Hays, and I personally use his drawing, and continuing to draw as I lightly loosen my grip on the pouch to release, for the smoothest possible release.

However, I do know from many many times practice, the exact draw length I am going to make for my three band sets I currently use for identical ballistics from each.

Also using a retractable sewing machine tape measure, I do practice my draw length around a dozen or so times, for which ever band set I am going to practice with on any given day. And we are only speaking of a difference in draw length of a few inches anyway.

I also have very strong gripping fingers, from now 45 years in Martial Arts.

Therefore I only grip thumb and forefinger, the others extending but still slightly bent.

I tend to "aim" as I draw, with my point of aim being achieved a split second before release, to obtain for myself a max. of heat therefore energy in my bands.

Also I trust/hope this translates to FPS for my ammo/shot; as all this occurs in around 1 second of time or thereabouts.

However, I have tried flip shooting many times, and it invariably throws my shot off my point of aim; therefore as the saying goes; if it isn't broken, don't fix it

Cheers Allan


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## squirrel squasher (May 17, 2013)

This is MJ's video. I have no idea about the extra power, but I have got a five inch group with the exception of a few flyers (not many) at thirty feet. I have only gone through on bandset and I am quickely adapting to this style. I think that every one who is contemplating it should give it a try regardless of wether or not it increases power. But if you try it go through at least a thousand shoots just to go through the adjust ment period. Another thing that I have found is a fast, but steady draw and absolutely no pause before the pouch release.


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

squirrel squasher said:


> This is MJ's video. I have no idea about the extra power, but I have got a five inch group with the exception of a few flyers (not many) at thirty feet. I have only gone through on bandset and I am quickely adapting to this style. I think that every one who is contemplating it should give it a try regardless of wether or not it increases power. But if you try it go through at least a thousand shoots just to go through the adjust ment period. Another thing that I have found is a fast, but steady draw and absolutely no pause before the pouch release.


Thanks for that link SS, actually this is really interesting... I will try this for sure!


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## Aussie Allan In Thailand (Jan 28, 2013)

Dang pity I have reached my quota of "likes" for the day.

BUT nearly everyone , please consider your comments liked , okay.

Cheers Allan


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

Bill Hays said:


> Forced flip shooting speed difference:


Crap Mr. Hayes, I seemed to have missed this video you posted!! I apologize, I was viewing using my phone and somehow missed it. This is perfect. When I got home, I watched the vid, it's excellent.

Thank you,

Clever Moniker


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Clever Moniker said:


> My question was (in particular), as an aimer... "has anyone done this and seen success"... I didn't realize this was such a controversial topic as I primarily stay in the hunting section of this forum. Now, Mr. Hayes... you gotta know I think the world of your slingshot and use it non-stop as well as tout it to others... huge respect.
> 
> Something does seems "off" here, so I would like to pose the question. What motive would dgui have for falsifying fps? What has he to gain? I would think nothing. I suspect then that 3 options exist:
> 
> ...


I don't think Dgui is falsifying FPS... he is simply drawing further when he "active" shoots. The longer draw along with a forced flip IS capable of adding more FPS. I don't know WHY he doesn't look at his own videos and see what he himself is doing to get the speed increases.... and I have no idea what would motivate him to say all this stuff either.

What I do know is what he says he's doing and then getting the speed increases he's claiming... is simply not possible.

You may also ask what motivates ME to question his results and then to make tests to check out whether they're accurate or not.... Well I can tell you that I honestly don't care whether a narrow fork or a wide fork shoots faster at the same draw length... and I really don't care how drawn time affects speed. All I want is the best setup. One that is fast, powerful and highly accurate.... and in the pursuit of that a lot of different things get tested, that's all.

Here is a test that should interest everyone:


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

Clever Moniker said:


> Imperial said:
> 
> 
> > fps dont mean squat if you cant hit your target. its easier to increase fps, but difficult to learn proper form and technique. fps should be in the middle to low spot on the list of slingshot use.
> ...


no, you have totally misunderstood me . once you learn the basics you can then improve on your techniques, build up brick by brick, by be it distance shooting or in your case ammo velocity. to me, fps is easier to gain- choose the right weighted ammo and tube/bandset that compliments ammo, and the right length cut and taper to fit *your *draw and anchor. i never in my statement said anything of negativity towards draw length, " active shooting", "flip shooting", or whatever. in a general way i was being encouraging by opinionating that one should worry more about hitting a target, because if your not in the general area, your margin of error for damage is greatly expanded upon. if you dont know how to properly set up in your stance then you may be pointing straight, but your legs may not- therefore increasing your miss zone sufficiently. and that is why fps should be last or at least lower on the list of what to worry about. if you want to truly do instictive shooting, do it blind folded, other than that, its aiming. and yes i have messed around trying to do it blindfolded with a pfs, lets just say it was an adventure. but anyways, good luck to you, im sure youll accomplish your goal.


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## joseph_curwen (Feb 8, 2010)

Imperial said:


> and yes i have messed around trying to do it blindfolded with a pfs, lets just say it was an adventure.


Like it


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

Imperial said:


> Clever Moniker said:
> 
> 
> > Imperial said:
> ...


Oh man... Imperial, I was responding to you with "Hmmm, well I know I'm not the best Imperial but I feel okay confident I can hit my target.".

The second part of my statement wasn't directed towards you.  It was more of a generalized statement based on the responses to the original question. I was simply asking why it was such a hot topic so to speak?

Clever Moniker


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

Clever Moniker said:


> Oh man... Imperial, I was responding to you with "Hmmm, well I know I'm not the best Imperial but I feel okay confident I can hit my target.".
> 
> The second part of my statement wasn't directed towards you.  It was more of a generalized statement based on the responses to the original question. I was simply asking why it was such a hot topic so to speak?
> 
> Clever Moniker


meh, no problem. i dont carry a chip on my shoulder. i drink my morning coffee with a couple shots of cement, hardens me up for the days emotional turmoil :rofl: . as for the second part, its made for a lot of forum drama, kinda amusing though in a twisted way. keep on practicing !


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## Tube_Shooter (Dec 8, 2012)

Ok it's obvious to me that the drastic increase in fps in active shooting is down to the drastic increase in draw length,there are no miracles happening here.It's no good posting videos with your draw hand out of view and the only proof offered is the fact "look you can see the tubes are maxed out" that my friends is not a fact at all,try it yourself draw to 32" for static shooting then draw 50" + with active shooting you'll see they look the same on video.... the eye is not an engineers vernier :rofl:


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## SmilingFury (Jul 2, 2013)

You guys are all fools! Santa himself told me that he and the easter bunny saw the tooth fairy get shot with "live" shooting by cupid and then static shot right after while being wrapped in a science diet dog food can and the sound the two shots made was COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!!!

...and in case that wasn't enough, the cupid DID say "...and there ya go." after shooting both times!

Whacha go to say about that Mr. Science mumbo jumbo Bill Hays?! 
I rest my case,
SF


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## SuperMonkeySlinger (Jan 28, 2013)

This is getting intense lol..

I don't really worry about FPS as long as i can hit the dang pop can.

SMS


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Hitting the target is the name of the game!

Cheers ... Charles


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## Tube_Shooter (Dec 8, 2012)

I have it nailed now! if I actively run the 100M i'd be the fastest on earth,have I got that right?


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

Tube_Shooter said:


> I have it nailed now! if I actively run the 100M i'd be the fastest on earth,have I got that right?


only if you can consistently hit the finish line tape


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## August West (Jan 21, 2012)

I don't have a dog in this hunt but CM I would not change anything you seem to be doing just fine with whatever technique your using now.

I am a flip shooter and shoot naturals over the top, why? Because this is the way I enjoy shooting.


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

August West said:


> I don't have a dog in this hunt but CM I would not change anything you seem to be doing just fine with whatever technique your using now.
> 
> I am a flip shooter and shoot naturals over the top, why? Because this is the way I enjoy shooting.


Thanks August, I guess I just wanted to try something new... you make a good point though, if it works, why change?

Thanks man.

Clever Moniker


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## Aussie Allan In Thailand (Jan 28, 2013)

As they is it aint broke; don't fix it...

Yesterday, other things, like life came up, sorry if ya all missed me.

Cheers Allan


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## SmilingFury (Jul 2, 2013)

I have clearly stated before that I thought "live" shooting was imaginary and unsupported by testing. I was reading a post by Mr. Bill Hays where he asked Dgui to tether a string from the slingshot to keep the draw lengths consistent. I felt this made alot of sense as I could plainly see that there WERE differences in the live and static draw lengths. 
With this in mind I respectfully challenged Dgui to do this tethered test on the other forum he has been frequenting. I have very loudly scoffed at "live" shooting, as have many of us, but this video has made me pause with a pensive moment and consider it once again. After watching this video, I have to admit that whether or not I can quantify the affecting factors, there is a distinct result. 
I am not looking to stir any pots here but I am very curious what Mr.Hays thinks of this video. Anyway, here is Dgui's tethered video:






What do you guys think?
-SF


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

SmilingFury said:


> I have clearly stated before that I thought "live" shooting was imaginary and unsupported by testing. I was reading a post by Mr. Bill Hays where he asked Dgui to tether a string from the slingshot to keep the draw lengths consistent. I felt this made alot of sense as I could plainly see that there WERE differences in the live and static draw lengths.
> With this in mind I respectfully challenged Dgui to do this tethered test on the other forum he has been frequenting. I have very loudly scoffed at "live" shooting, as have many of us, but this video has made me pause with a pensive moment and consider it once again. After watching this video, I have to admit that whether or not I can quantify the affecting factors, there is a distinct result.
> I am not looking to stir any pots here but I am very curious what Mr.Hays thinks of this video. Anyway, here is Dgui's tethered video:
> 
> ...


its been explained and b-slapped to the ground. lots of b-hurt has also occurred cause of this very subject. he needs to set the forks in a vise and just move the pouch. live shooting is more of a "snap" style. the sudden release is what, i feel, gives it the little extra punch. also, rubbing some flax seed oil on your bands/tubes an injecting your ammo with steroids helps also, have a great week people !


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## SmilingFury (Jul 2, 2013)

Imperial said:


> SmilingFury said:
> 
> 
> > I have clearly stated before that I thought "live" shooting was imaginary and unsupported by testing. I was reading a post by Mr. Bill Hays where he asked Dgui to tether a string from the slingshot to keep the draw lengths consistent. I felt this made alot of sense as I could plainly see that there WERE differences in the live and static draw lengths.
> ...


Look Imp,
I simply talked alot of crap about this and i wanted to just say that "hey is is at least worth a thought" thats all. The mods can delete it if they think i am trying to be incendiary.
Be well,
SF


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## SmilingFury (Jul 2, 2013)

I did not see the thread that exploded about this yesterday. Sorry. I had no idea this had been posted already and the controversy surrounding it.
Mods can take it down if they like as i said before. I truly wasn't trying to potstir. 
SF


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## Tube_Shooter (Dec 8, 2012)

That flip active shooting is not for me so I do not care,I like to aim and hold for a second and I still get speeds of 250+ and that my friends is all I need for targets and of course for hunting small game...you can take that to any bank and cash it in :rofl:


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## Aussie Allan In Thailand (Jan 28, 2013)

As mentioned previously my own care factor is zero.

Cheers Allan


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## Tube_Shooter (Dec 8, 2012)

And yes I know I said those awful few words "I like to aim and hold for a second" well I do not care what some may think about that either


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## SmilingFury (Jul 2, 2013)

I apologize for putting this up today. I just read the whole thread that LGD locked yesterday and I had no idea. So embarrassing considering how much I read this forum. I thought the man had proved me wrong and I admit when I am wrong. 
Mods, please pull my video link post out of this thread. Sorryfor the extra work.

Today, I'm that guy,
SF


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## SmilingFury (Jul 2, 2013)

Tube_Shooter said:


> And yes I know I said those awful few words "I like to aim and hold for a second" well I do not care what some may think about that either


I am an aimer too dude. Instinctive shooting, to me means that my instincts tell me there will be problems if I don't aim!!lol
- SF


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Not to worry. Rather than pull the link, I think I will just lock this thread before the controversy strikes here again. Everyone needs a chance to cool off on this one.

Cheers ..... Charles


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