# Bigger Tougher mammals



## josephlys

So anyone taken the bigger, tougher than usual game? Like fox, raccoon, possum, feral cat, badger, skunk....etc with slingshot. Just what does it take to kill one of these tough buggers. I took my 8mm ID hex-nut (8g) and filled it with molten lead. Like a metal jacket, it retains it's super-hard edged exterior, while adding mass. Or increasing density as it's still the same size,







. It came out to be 12g (185gr)








Also I'll be pulling 22-24lbs band-sets. Would shooting them in the head anchor them? I have no experience, anyone has some?


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## NaturalFork

I have no doubt most of those animals can be killed with a slingshot.


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## HopefulHunter

Headshot with 12g would kill a fox or a badger*** *I reckon. Went to agricultural college and have witnessed a fox being dispatched (immediately, no suffering) with a kick to the head from the farmer that caught up with it.

They really aren't fans of foxes there...

But definitely go for the headshot, find out where their brains and spines run and aim for that maybe?

cheers, Eddie.

** EDIT: Removed badger from this. Wasn't awake and am fairly confident a 12g would bounce off of their skull rather than kill them. Also note that it has been mentioned that the kick that dispatched the fox was probably due to it's neck breaking. 
Basically, just ignore what i've written.

Cheers again. Eddie.


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## josephlys

Thanks Hopefulhunter, I think that kick might have snapped its neck rather than brain trauma. I currently use lead filled hex-nuts so that I might get better damage and penetration. I may add that 10lbs is the limit for any vermin I'd set my sights on. Maybe others who have first hand experience can chime in.







Fox, raccoon, possum, feral cat, badger, skunk,... feral monkeys, groundhogs,... tougher than common slingshot quarry. I don't see many of these taken with a slingshot, I guess they are pretty intimidating to take a shot at.


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## BIG-B

I would say you would be able to take any of these with a catty but it has to be the right set up and ammo so a lead filled hex nut is not the way. You can get custom gamekeeper bands that are a triple layer of thera band gold and nice 16mm lead would do the trick . That on impact with quarries skull would be devastating. I would also like to add I would only take this shot if knew it was going to be a clean kill. No one likes to see an animal in pain and as for the guy who kicked the fox to death he's just an arsehole . Cheers Brian


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## josephlys

May I ask why lead filled hex nuts won't cut it? Whats the draw-weight of gamekeeper bands that are a triple layer? Thank you.

Edit: What about bigger hex-nuts filled with lead. Is it the weight that is the issue? Thanks again, I know the bigger the ammo the better. But I need to match it well. Currently 12g hex-nuts are good for me, they'd definitely kill a crow outright with a body shot.


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## BIG-B

I think the hex nut is too inaccurate and can twist and turn so it could hit flat on. I just cant see the force carrying through the hex nut. Were as the lead ball is spherical and will always give you clean hit with the blunt force. That's my opinion thought. I don't know what the draw-weight on the gamekeeper bands that are a triple layer. That's a question for John. I think for his double layer bands its a 30lb draw at full stretch


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## josephlys

Wow going more than 30lbs draw! I'll loose precious accuracy.


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## mr.joel

I think a hex nut would work fine providing you are trained to use it (controlling the ammo in the pouch) and limit your range inside 20 yards or so. I think this is a better plan than overpowered bands and musket balls if you can't control them. The old adage, " a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45, " comes to mind. I think appropriate spheres for your band set would be a better idea as there is less chance of fliers, but if you're confident with the ammo, as long as you can deliver accurate hits reliably, go for it. Hex nuts certainly penetrate better than spheres at the velocities we are working with, this has been proven for sure; filled with lead I'm sure they are deadly.


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## HopefulHunter

josephlys said:


> I would say you would be able to take any of these with a catty but it has to be the right set up and ammo so a lead filled hex nut is not the way. You can get custom gamekeeper bands that are a triple layer of thera band gold and nice 16mm lead would do the trick . That on impact with quarries skull would be devastating. I would also like to add I would only take this shot if knew it was going to be a clean kill. No one likes to see an animal in pain and as for the guy who kicked the fox to death he's just an arsehole . Cheers Brian


Brian you could not be more right, the chap who did it was an absolute cock through and through, spoilt, rude and mean. I went along because I didn't trust any of the others to be humane if they caught up with the thing. Fortunately it was an instant death following a short chase, certainly less stress for the animal than a traditional fox hunt, and the animal went to someone's dogs, so not a waste of meat either.


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## josephlys

mr.joel said:


> I think a hex nut would work fine providing you are trained to use it (controlling the ammo in the pouch) and limit your range inside 20 yards or so. I think this is a better plan than overpowered bands and musket balls if you can't control them. The old adage, " a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45, " comes to mind. I think appropriate spheres for your band set would be a better idea as there is less chance of fliers, but if you're confident with the ammo, as long as you can deliver accurate hits reliably, go for it. Hex nuts certainly penetrate better than spheres at the velocities we are working with, this has been proven for sure; filled with lead I'm sure they are deadly.


I've been practicing with hex-nuts lately and find their accuracy to be quite good. Almost as good as leadballs, I've successfully hunted dove with them out to 10yards. I would certainly not shoot beyond 10yards at bigger game thou'. I just made a band-set 24lbs draw, this should handle the 12g lead filled hex-nuts well enough. I'm looking to get something in the range of groundhog size no bigger than 10lbs thou'.


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## BIG-B

mr.joel said:


> I think a hex nut would work fine providing you are trained to use it (controlling the ammo in the pouch) and limit your range inside 20 yards or so. I think this is a better plan than overpowered bands and musket balls if you can't control them. The old adage, " a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45, " comes to mind. I think appropriate spheres for your band set would be a better idea as there is less chance of fliers, but if you're confident with the ammo, as long as you can deliver accurate hits reliably, go for it. Hex nuts certainly penetrate better than spheres at the velocities we are working with, this has been proven for sure; filled with lead I'm sure they are deadly.


 This is his opinion. But I would stick with the small game if your using hex nuts. I've seen people fire a .22 air rifle at foxes this penetrates and is far more accurate than a sling and does nothing more than leave the animal in agony. You need blunt force trauma with game this size but If you want to use penetration method for a nice clean kill on this size of animal I recommend that you look at bows


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## josephlys

You got a point there, but I was thinking of 12g hex-nut that would punch a hole in the skull because the band-set I'm comfortable with handles this ammo the best. I have some 22g lead ammo but the bands I use don't handle them well. I'm not a big guy and am not used to too much draw weight, I can shoot more than 30lbs but would miss the head often and probably hit the body which is worse.


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## BIG-B

I'm only voicing my opinion mate. You can shoot whatever when ever you like. But its you that has to live with it if you injure a poor animal. So just give it a thought before you go all guns blazing


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## josephlys

I will thank you, I'm not sure neither have I had any experience before that's why I asked for advice. I just need to know if I can handle it efficiently and if it will anchor cleanly, that's all. I very much appreciate everyone's advice here.


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## slingshotvibe

John proved that two trips of tbg is faster than 3


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## mr.joel

Right, if you want faster in 3 layers go for thinner rubber, but of course it will tear faster. TB Black is good for this. Although they don't last as as long, as a consolation the bands are great performers and easier to make. I don't know what draw style you're using, but Torsten has a great video on youtube on butterfly band making using it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwgVNwxz ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnkCvYwp ... re=related


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## Henry the Hermit

Hex nuts wouldn't be my first choice for hunting, but I have casting equipment. If anything, I believe a 185 grain hex nut traveling at 200 fps would be just as deadly, maybe more so, than a 185 grain lead ball at the same speed. That said, if you want to guarantee a clean kill every time, catch the animal and cut its throat. Anything, and I do mean anything, that fires a projectile can wound without killing.

Also, pull weight is not a good measure of the power of a slingshot. The speed at which the bands contract determines the velocity of the projectile. As an example, a 30 pound pull bandset may actually fire a 100 grain ball slower than a 10 pound pull bandset.


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## mr.joel

yes I shoot .31s and have to tone the rubber down to get whip cracking hits if you get my meaning.


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## BIG-B

Henry in Panama said:


> Hex nuts wouldn't be my first choice for hunting, but I have casting equipment. If anything, I believe a 185 grain hex nut traveling at 200 fps would be just as deadly, maybe more so, than a 185 grain lead ball at the same speed. That said, if you want to guarantee a clean kill every time, catch the animal and cut its throat. Anything, and I do mean anything, that fires a projectile can wound without killing.
> 
> Also, pull weight is not a good measure of the power of a slingshot. The speed at which the bands contract determines the velocity of the projectile. As an example, a 30 pound pull bandset may actually fire a 100 grain ball slower than a 10 pound pull bandset.


f you want to guarantee a clean kill every time, catch the animal and cut its throat. This would be called Killing and not hunting.

Anything, and I do mean anything, that fires a projectile can wound without killing. this is true and this is why we as hunters must study our quarry, Where it lives, what it eats, what habits does it have e.g Does it return to the same place to feed each day at the same time. Study the animals body structure where to hit and not to hit. Learn when to take a shot and when not
Practice and practice with your sling until you've got it to a fine art then i would say you were ready for hunting your big game.

As for the band set. John has proven that a single band fires 9.5mm steel ball better than double band set. But the double band set fires heavy ammo such 12mm better. I could put a pound to a penny that a 16mm lead ball would fire better with triple bands than the double layer.


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## Jacktrevally

I've shot many hex nuts with filled lead before. Used them since we didn't have lead moulds to cast round leads, so filled hex nuts with lead. 
However, I haven't took bigger game than a game bird with them. Good penetration and impact. I have a few on me as they are easily availaible and cheaper than lead balls


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## Charles

I have tried feral cats with a slingshot and had no success ... even with a head shot. I was shooting stones about 200 gr weight. I had 2 cats just run off after being hit solidly in the head. I do not know the velocity of the projectiles. Obviously, if you get the velocity "high enough" a lead filled hex nut will do the job ... but "high enough" may well be beyond the range of a slingshot. I took to shooting feral cats with a 22 hornet ... A head shot certainly did the job, but no matter where hit in the body, the cats would run. They would die quickly, but they would still run. Feral cats are very tough. I am sure (don't ask) that you could take a racoon with a .45 lead ball to the head at point blank range ... but I would not try it an any distance, myself.

Cheers .... Charles


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## Toddy

Years ago I saw some local Gypsies take a Roe deer with a 16mm lead ball. It was hit just below the ear line almost at the back of the head. It dropped and didn't move. The range was about 15yds. So it is possible, but personally I'll stick to smaller stuff like Rabbits and Pigeons.


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## shot in the foot

HopefulHunter said:


> Headshot with 12g would kill a fox or a badger I reckon. Went to agricultural college and have witnessed a fox being dispatched (immediately, no suffering) with a kick to the head from the farmer that caught up with it.
> 
> They really aren't fans of foxes there...
> 
> But definitely go for the headshot, find out where their brains and spines run and aim for that maybe?
> 
> cheers, Eddie.


A badger has a head like a brick,, you would only injure it, ive seen lads put 2 shots in them with a rifle, when it was allowed over here.


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## HopefulHunter

shot in the foot said:


> Headshot with 12g would kill a fox or a badger I reckon. Went to agricultural college and have witnessed a fox being dispatched (immediately, no suffering) with a kick to the head from the farmer that caught up with it.
> 
> They really aren't fans of foxes there...
> 
> But definitely go for the headshot, find out where their brains and spines run and aim for that maybe?
> 
> cheers, Eddie.


A badger has a head like a brick,, you would only injure it, ive seen lads put 2 shots in them with a rifle, when it was allowed over here.
[/quote]

Sir you are more than right. I retract that completely and am going to edit that out as I don't want to mislead anyone. I just grouped them together due to similar size, but they're thick skulled buggers. My girlfriend hit one with a car and had to reverse over it back and forth until it died because she didn't want to get bitten. Would you believe she's training to be a vet? lol! Bless her.

In my defence, when I wrote that I'd been awake for like, 12 minutes.

Cheers for pointing that out Shot in the Foot.

Eddie


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## Henry the Hermit

BIG-B said:


> This would be called Killing and not hunting.
> 
> *Actually, I think it would take a lot more skill to find, stalk and get close enough to an animal to cut its throat than to sit in a stand waiting for something to walk by. And it most certainly would be called "hunting".*
> 
> As for the band set. John has proven that a single band fires 9.5mm steel ball better than double band set.
> 
> *That is a pretty absolute statement for something that involves so many variables, such as type of bands, thickness, width, taper, length. For example, I'd bet money that a single Theraband Silver tube won't fire a 9.5mm steel ball faster than a set of Tex's Express bands, which are doubled. *
> 
> But the double band set fires heavy ammo such 12mm better. I could put a pound to a penny that a 16mm lead ball would fire better with triple bands than the double layer.
> 
> *Again, it depends. A triple set of 1/2 inch wide TB Black will not handle a 16mm lead ball as well as a single set of .050 x 1.25 x 1 inch food grade latex. There are simply too many variables in slingshooting to make absolute statements.*


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## BIG-B

Henry in Panama said:


> This would be called Killing and not hunting.
> 
> *Actually, I think it would take a lot more skill to find, stalk and get close enough to an animal to cut its throat than to sit in a stand waiting for something to walk by. And it most certainly would be called "hunting".*
> 
> As for the band set. John has proven that a single band fires 9.5mm steel ball better than double band set.
> 
> *That is a pretty absolute statement for something that involves so many variables, such as type of bands, thickness, width, taper, length. For example, I'd bet money that a single Theraband Silver tube won't fire a 9.5mm steel ball faster than a set of Tex's Express bands, which are doubled. *
> 
> But the double band set fires heavy ammo such 12mm better. I could put a pound to a penny that a 16mm lead ball would fire better with triple bands than the double layer.
> 
> *Again, it depends. A triple set of 1/2 inch wide TB Black will not handle a 16mm lead ball as well as a single set of .050 x 1.25 x 1 inch food grade latex. There are simply too many variables in slingshooting to make absolute statements.*


[/quote]

if you want to guarantee a clean kill every time, catch the animal and cut its throat. This also could mean so many things. to catch an animal e.g trap it in a cage,*so many variables*. You never mentioned anything about stalking. Personally myself I always stalk. I don't believe in the prey coming to me as I am the hunter*.*

*That is a pretty absolute statement for something that involves so many variables*I was talking about gamekeeper John bands any information you need you can find on-line e.g *such as type of bands, thickness, width, taper, length.*

Thanks for sharing your wisdom though

Cheers Brian


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## josephlys

Henry in Panama said:


> I have tried feral cats with a slingshot and had no success ... even with a head shot. I was shooting stones about 200 gr weight. I had 2 cats just run off after being hit solidly in the head. I do not know the velocity of the projectiles. Obviously, if you get the velocity "high enough" a lead filled hex nut will do the job ... but "high enough" may well be beyond the range of a slingshot. I took to shooting feral cats with a 22 hornet ... A head shot certainly did the job, but no matter where hit in the body, the cats would run. They would die quickly, but they would still run. Feral cats are very tough. I am sure (don't ask) that you could take a racoon with a .45 lead ball to the head at point blank range ... but I would not try it an any distance, myself.
> 
> Cheers .... Charles


Wow feral cats are that tough! Would you say they are tougher than raccoons? I always thought it was the other way around. Maybe stones aren't dense enough? They lack density and hard edges like a hex-nut does. Eg. a 200gr stone would not penetrate a steel can, whereas a hex-nut of the same weight would go clean through. How far were you from those ferals when you shot.


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## Charles

josephlys said:


> I have tried feral cats with a slingshot and had no success ... even with a head shot. I was shooting stones about 200 gr weight. I had 2 cats just run off after being hit solidly in the head. I do not know the velocity of the projectiles. Obviously, if you get the velocity "high enough" a lead filled hex nut will do the job ... but "high enough" may well be beyond the range of a slingshot. I took to shooting feral cats with a 22 hornet ... A head shot certainly did the job, but no matter where hit in the body, the cats would run. They would die quickly, but they would still run. Feral cats are very tough. I am sure (don't ask) that you could take a racoon with a .45 lead ball to the head at point blank range ... but I would not try it an any distance, myself.
> 
> Cheers .... Charles


Wow feral cats are that tough! Would you say they are tougher than raccoons? I always thought it was the other way around. Maybe stones aren't dense enough? They lack density and hard edges like a hex-nut does. Eg. a 200gr stone would not penetrate a steel can, whereas a hex-nut of the same weight would go clean through. How far were you from those ferals when you shot.
[/quote]

I was only about 15 feet away from the cats. Even with a hex nut, I do not think I would have been successful. It is true that hex nuts have some sharp corners ... but you are not guaranteed that you are going to hit with one of those corners. It may be that the cats I shot eventually died of brain hemorage or whatever, but I never did find either of them.

In my opinion, the skull of a racoon is easier to crack than that of a cat. I think they are roughly the same thickness, but the cat skull is a bit smaller. That means it is physically stronger. Or maybe it has something to do with the way a cat is wired. I really do not know. I do know that cats are very tough beasts. Maybe I was lucky with the racoon, but it went down as soon as I hit it ... of course I immediately cut its throat.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## shot in the foot

A rabbit is about the only thing i would shoot with a catapult, if you want to shoot anything bigger buy a gun, jeff


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## josephlys

Just out of curiosity and out of topic. What about a 25-30lbs pistol compound crossbow? Will it be a much better weapon to use?


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## HopefulHunter

If I were going to use a crossbow it'd be a full sized thing, I don't rate the accuracy of the pistol crossbows, But I've got a 150lb crossbow I bought for £110 and at 30 paces I got a grouping about an inch across with 3 shots.

Reckon if you shot a fox with a target arrow from a 150lber it'd go clean through it. Would need 'broadhead' or hunting tips i think.


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## BIG-B

It is true that hex nuts have some sharp corners ... but you are not guaranteed that you are going to hit with one of those corners.


Charles said:


> I have tried feral cats with a slingshot and had no success ... even with a head shot. I was shooting stones about 200 gr weight. I had 2 cats just run off after being hit solidly in the head. I do not know the velocity of the projectiles. Obviously, if you get the velocity "high enough" a lead filled hex nut will do the job ... but "high enough" may well be beyond the range of a slingshot. I took to shooting feral cats with a 22 hornet ... A head shot certainly did the job, but no matter where hit in the body, the cats would run. They would die quickly, but they would still run. Feral cats are very tough. I am sure (don't ask) that you could take a racoon with a .45 lead ball to the head at point blank range ... but I would not try it an any distance, myself.
> 
> Cheers .... Charles


Wow feral cats are that tough! Would you say they are tougher than raccoons? I always thought it was the other way around. Maybe stones aren't dense enough? They lack density and hard edges like a hex-nut does. Eg. a 200gr stone would not penetrate a steel can, whereas a hex-nut of the same weight would go clean through. How far were you from those ferals when you shot.
[/quote]

I was only about 15 feet away from the cats. Even with a hex nut, I do not think I would have been successful. It is true that hex nuts have some sharp corners ... but you are not guaranteed that you are going to hit with one of those corners. It may be that the cats I shot eventually died of brain hemorage or whatever, but I never did find either of them.

In my opinion, the skull of a racoon is easier to crack than that of a cat. I think they are roughly the same thickness, but the cat skull is a bit smaller. That means it is physically stronger. Or maybe it has something to do with the way a cat is wired. I really do not know. I do know that cats are very tough beasts. Maybe I was lucky with the racoon, but it went down as soon as I hit it ... of course I immediately cut its throat.

Cheers ..... Charles
[/quote]

It is true that hex nuts have some sharp corners ... but you are not guaranteed that you are going to hit with one of those corners. Thank you Charles you have hit the nail on the head. Like I was saying earlier in the post hex nuts are to inaccurate


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## BIG-B

shot in the foot said:


> A rabbit is about the only thing i would shoot with a catapult, if you want to shoot anything bigger buy a gun, jeff


if you want to shoot anything bigger buy a gun, This is also a great bit of advice. Thanks Jeff


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## Henry the Hermit

josephlys said:


> Hex nuts wouldn't be my first choice for hunting, but I have casting equipment. If anything, I believe a 185 grain hex nut traveling at 200 fps would be just as deadly, maybe more so, than a 185 grain lead ball at the same speed. That said, if you want to guarantee a clean kill every time, catch the animal and cut its throat. Anything, and I do mean anything, that fires a projectile can wound without killing.
> 
> Also, pull weight is not a good measure of the power of a slingshot. The speed at which the bands contract determines the velocity of the projectile. As an example, a 30 pound pull bandset may actually fire a 100 grain ball slower than a 10 pound pull bandset.


I've been dying to ask, how would a 24lbs band-set handle a 18g (277gr) projectile? I know there are lots of variables but I could use some examples.
[/quote]

Not enough information, Josephyls. You have to consider the type of rubber, thickness, taper, length of the rubber and density and shape of the projectile, etc. Even then, the only way to know for sure is to shoot the combination against a real target. The closest example I can give you is velocity tests I ran on a set of doubled .050 x 1 x .75 x 8 inch latex bands which pulled about 25 lbs at 30 inches. I got an average of about 180 fps and 12.5 lbs/ft with 175 grain lead balls. I believe, but don't know for sure because I haven't tested it, that an equivalent set of TB Gold would be faster.

I have a theory about bandset development which anyone who cares to is free to prove or disprove. My idea for determining the maximum speed of a particular rubber is to measure the speed of a very light projectile. For instance, I have some TBG "scrap" that ZDP-189 very generously gave me. Some of the pieces are 1/2 x 1/4 x 8 1/2 inches. I add a small frame and a very light pouch. From these I get 300+fps with .177 steel BBs. I consider that to be the upper limit of speed to be obtained with a normal draw (32 inches) using TBG. My theory is that if you can find the right balance of projectile density and shape, band width and taper, and number of layers, TBG is capable of 300 fps with ammo heavier than BBs and a normal draw. You can use this method with any rubber to determine the maximum speed you can expect from it, and after a bit of data collection and lots of tests, predict how it will perform with a given cut and ammo weight.

Of course, for hunting slingshots, maximum speed is much less important than maximum power.


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## Jacktrevally

> . The closest example I can give you is velocity tests I ran on a set of doubled .050 x 1 x .75 x 8 inch latex bands which pulled about 25 lbs at 30 inches.


Is that double 0.05" latex per side, i.e 4 strips in all?


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## Henry the Hermit

Jacktrevally said:


> . The closest example I can give you is velocity tests I ran on a set of doubled .050 x 1 x .75 x 8 inch latex bands which pulled about 25 lbs at 30 inches.
> 
> 
> 
> Is that double 0.05" latex per side, i.e 4 strips in all?
Click to expand...

Yes. I'm not claiming that is the best you can hope for, just that that is the only recorded information I have on 25 lb bands and heavy ammo. I don't do much testing with heavy pull bands, because at my age, it's just too much work.


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## Jacktrevally

Thanks Henry.

Those latex very good, I've some more in the post!

I never thought of going double on them as they are already thick!

Singles per side, 1 x 3\4 will propel a 14mm lead fast enough for a decent kill. They retract fast but not as fast as 0.03"! If only I had access to sheet latex I would definetly try different combo with them.


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## JohnRio

Here's a thought josephlys - if you can get a comparable size skull or head from your butcher, or roadkill... You could test impact / penetration on a dead 'un before trying it out on a live one...

A bit grisly, but then you'd have a much better idea of what your ammo / set-up can and can't do....


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## JohnRio

josephlys said:


> Just out of curiosity and out of topic. What about a 25-30lbs pistol compound crossbow? Will it be a much better weapon to use?


I used to have the 50lbs break-action Barnett pistol crossbow for a couple of years.

Great fun to shoot, but accuracy sucked, at the same 13yard range that I can put 3 shots from my .22 air rifle (Weirauch HW95) into a 50pence size group, I'd be lucky to get a group smaller than a human head! Extreme fliers were frequent.

Plus, although they penetrate pretty well, the little bolts themselves only weigh about 45grains (that's the heavier alloy shaft ones) and fly at about 165fps.. so they are probably hitting with less than 6 ftlbs of power. ..

A good slingshot (with TBG doubles and 12mm lead) outclasses a pistol crossbow by 2 to 3 times, any day of the week.

I have a full size 120lb draw weight crossbow now. It's more accurate than the pistol, however when you run the numbers: 330grain arrow at about 200 odd fps... it "only" comes out at about 30 odd ft lbs... it's the cutting broadhead that makes it a viable hunting rig for beasts larger than the standard slingshot/air rifle quarry... although of course, hunting with crossbows is illegal in the Unfree Kingdom









Oh, the big recurve crossbow makes an audible BOINNG noise when fired. In contrast to the almost silent slingshot.

Also, if you're in the UK, the odds of someone calling in the firearms squad if they see you out and about with a crossbow, are probably higher than if they see you with a slingshot...


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## shot in the foot

Ive caught rabbits with cross bow bolts through there necks, also seen sea gulls with bolts in them, probly why you cant hunt with them in britain, jeff


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## yeeharr

shot in the foot said:


> .
> A badger has a head like a brick,, you would only injure it, ive seen lads put 2 shots in them with a rifle, when it was allowed over here.


When was that?


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## josephlys

Yeah I went and tried out the pistol crossbow today. The guy (member of this forum as well), let me try it out. I tried shooting the bbs and bolts. I would say although it was fun the accuracy just wasn't there. Power wise - low. A 30-40lb pistol crossbow just isn't made for hunting IMHO, now I see why. It was pretty cool thou', but I'd rather use a blowgun or slingshot. Way deadlier and much more accurate. However it's cool for plinking and having fun. 
(maybe using alloy bolts or homemade steel bolts would have been more effective, but the slingshot and blowgun are way way cheaper and yield better results. So it's a no brainer) That's MO.


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## JohnRio

shot in the foot said:


> Ive caught rabbits with cross bow bolts through there necks, also seen sea gulls with bolts in them, probly why you cant hunt with them in britain, jeff


Nah, you can't legally hunt with a crossbow, or any bow in the Unfree Kingdom, because they are the traditional weapons of the poor and they're silent - so verrrry good for poaching! And the aristocracy wanted (still want) to keep all the hunting to themselves...

Whereas over in France, after they beheaded most of the aristos, hunting was legally opened to the people in general, and remains far more popular there than in the UK....

There's no reason people couldn't hunt humanely with a good full-size crossbow, or long or recurve or compound bow, if they had sufficient time, place and funds to practice. (They do so in the USA, for instance). Although a crossbow presents a similar level of difficulty to master as say an air rifle, archery does require way more skill and practice IMO...

Sadly, for those wounded critters you've come across, there's a fair few people in the UK who don't give a monkey's about practice / accuracy / a humane kill 
.


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## yeeharr

shot in the foot said:


> Ive caught rabbits with cross bow bolts through there necks, also seen sea gulls with bolts in them, probly why you cant hunt with them in britain, jeff


What size bolts were they? Rabbits aren't the most robust animal once they're injured and normally die. I should think a bolt through the neck would prevent them from entering a burrow. Pistol crossbows aren't accurate enough to hit a rabbit in my experience so I'd imagine that a full size one was used. There must be someone in your local area who's out with a crossbow hitting bunnies, it'd be rare for one to survive but you've caught at least two. Maybe more. How did you catch them?


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## rjcullis

The whole point is force at impact. This is determined by the following equation Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass x Velocity[sup]2 [/sup]. From this you can see that increasing velocity is more effective than increasing mass because the velocity term is squared (creating a logarithmic increase to KE) as opposed to increasing mass (which creates only a linear increase in KE). Increasing velocity also gives you a flatter trajectory as compared to increasing mass. Just a little something to think about.


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## Charles

rjcullis said:


> The whole point is force at impact. This is determined by the following equation Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass x Velocity[sup]2 [/sup]. From this you can see that increasing velocity is more effective than increasing mass because the velocity term is squared (creating a logarithmic increase to KE) as opposed to increasing mass (which creates only a linear increase in KE). Increasing velocity also gives you a flatter trajectory as compared to increasing mass. Just a little something to think about.


Sorry ... we have had this discussion several times already on this forum. Alas, KE does not correlate well with killing ability, as is very well known in firearms ballistics. The situation is considerably more complicated; there are no simple answers here. You can see some of the recent discussion in this thread:

http://slingshotforum.com/topic/11281-are-95mm-steel-moving-at-200fps-good-enough-for-hunting/

As for the question of flatter trajectory, you might have a look at:

http://slingshotforum.com/blog/11/entry-397-whats-the-optimal-velocity/

Cheers ....... Charles


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## ZDP-189

If you want to investigate the technical side, also read this: http://slingshotforum.com/blog/11/entry-238-terminal-ballistics-of-slingshots/

However let me be the first to admit it.... _Animals are not made out of gelatin and they do not sit on a pedestal waiting to be shot._

I recommend that you learn with an experienced hunter and slowly work up to the point where you feel your skills and weapon are still capable of an ethical and legal kill.


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## Nico

I always found it amuzing how so many think that simple ballistic mathematical equations can give you the answer to a slingshot's killing potential.

For me it's been matching the bands with sufficient weighted ammo, in other words making sure the bands can handle the killing weight ammunition. Its a simple formula for a stone user, if it can handle that hefty pebble with authority? It will kill..

Nico


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## Deltaboy1984

Here in the US my grandfather talked of taking rabbits , squirrels, ***** and possums with their slingshots. I just use a 22 rimfire rifle for all these critters mentioned . With a good scope I have taked Coyotes and Feral Dogs out to 80 yards.


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## Hrawk

Nico said:


> I always found it amuzing how so many think that simple ballistic mathematical equations can give you the answer to a slingshot's killing potential.
> 
> For me it's been matching the bands with sufficient weighted ammo, in other words making sure the bands can handle the killing weight ammunition. Its a simple formula for a stone user, if it can handle that hefty pebble with authority? It will kill..
> 
> Nico


As an avid rifle hunter, I for one am glad of the research that has been constantly going on, hypotheses have been formulated, tested and proven, leading to much innovation and advancement of the technology.

Where would modern rifles today be without the likes of Christian Friedrich Schonbein, Claud-Etienne Minie and John Moses Browning to name just a few.

If the firearms industry had taken your approach of 'this can kill, this will do', we'd all still be stuck with clumsy, inaccurate, dirty, unreliable, smooth bore, black powder muzzle loaders.

Personally I believe that ZDP's constant research and innovation will take slinghots to the next level.

I have been using his FastBands for a little over a month now, and IMO, no other band compares. 2360 shots with no sign of wear or slowing down at all.


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## rjcullis

Thanks Charles and ZDP 189. I looked up your references and found them useful. I just completed my slingshot/crossbow and experimented with ammunition. I was going to use light ammo with X-acto knife blades the penetration was not what I wanted. After reading your info and looking up your references i decided to try something heavier (a heavy duty 5 inch spike/nail with the head cut off). Wow, what a difference. Where my light ammo penetrated cardboard for maybe an inch. The nail blew right through! Once again thanks for the leads I was pretty depressed about the performance of my slingshot/crossbow and it took me a while and a lot of thought to make it. Now it works well. I will be able to take out rats and mink for sure. I believe it would do in a racoon too. Next time my dog trees one I will try it out. Please don't think I am prepared to experiment and just maim an animal. If the nail fails to finish of the racoon it will definately knock it off its perch and my dog will finish it within 30 seconds. The dog kill is not slow and painful, he is quick and does them in with two bites.


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## Charles

I would like to see some photos and more details about your slingshot crossbow. Please post some if you don't mind. Several of us on this forum have built such devices, and I am in the process of redesigning mine. It is always interesting to see what others have done.

Cheers ...... Charles


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