# Aiming vs. Intuitive shooting.



## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

I have noticed over time, but especially in the last couple of days, that if I just relax and shoot intuitively I'm much more accurate than if I carefully aim.

Is intuitive vs. aimed shooting a thing that gets discussed much? I'm really interested in others opinions on this.

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## jazz (May 15, 2012)

Yes, it has been extensively discussed very much and very often; if you are interested, then you could try the search function, and maybe some other people might place a link or two.

I am not going to use this thread to tell my experience and my opinion, but just to point to the fact that it seems that one or the other, or, in some way a combination of two, depend mostly on the personal preferences but I would also say on the way peoples minds work: some like to look along a stright line and shoot, some like to look at the target and let the hands adjust themselves subconsiously/sponatneously or whatever the right term might be.

Also, I never understood the difference between "instinctively" and "spontaneoulsy", but i do not care any more about it either.

I myself found experimenting with both ways so much fun and if you are consistent and note down your results then you learn a lot about both.

cheers,

jazz


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## hotserk (Jan 10, 2016)

''*Question:* Instinct shooting versus aiming, which is better?

*Answer:* Think of it this way.... you can shoot a pistol "from the hip" pointing at and hitting a torso sized target from 10 feet away fairly easily and if you practice a whole lot you'll get good enough to hit the heart (center mass) most of the time.... or you can take a second longer, raise the pistol to eye level and look along the barrel line up it's sights and hit a heart sized target from 10 feet away the first time you use a gun, and with practice you can hit a silver dollar sized target from 30 feet away most of the time... You can shoot from the hip very quickly, but you can hit a target better if you take your time and aim..... THAT is the difference in "instinctive" shooting versus "Aiming" in slingshots as well. Instinctive is fast, aiming is precise.

What most people think of "instinctual shooting" is actually just hurried imprecise aiming... as raising the slingshot to eye level and sighting along the bands or using a reference point is aiming.
If you define instinct shooting as not using references points but instead just pointing at your target and releasing when it all seems to line up, as compared to using a set of marks or reference points to aid in more precise shooting... then the answer would have to be, "instinct" shooting is a little faster and works just fine on close up or large targets that aren't to far away, but formal reference point "aiming" is better if you have to shoot with any kind of repeatable precision a distance of 30 feet or further and at targets that are smaller than, maybe a coffee can. 
Regardless, if you learn how to aim properly first, it's not that difficult to pick up "instinctive" shooting technique and do well with it... whereas it seems to be more difficult for an instinctive shooter to learn how to become a competent precision shooter.
*So learn to aim and shoot well consistently first, and then if you want to, play with instinctive technique.* That's our opinion and we're sticking to it!''

Thats what I found here: http://www.pocketpredator.com/FAQ.html

I agree with it. Take a look on this link so It can answer more questions.

Cheers.


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## Phoul Mouth (Jan 6, 2015)

Everyone shoots differently. Some shoot TTF better the OTT. Some shoot pinch grip better than hammer grip. Some shoot intuitively better than aiming.

There is no "this way is definitely better than that way". It is all about finding what works best for you, then further practicing shooting like that.

Here is an intuitive shooter for you:


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## Alfred E.M. (Jul 5, 2014)

*For me, aiming is like reading music when playing an instrument - useful and reliable. Intuitive shooting is just that - both eyes open, floating anchor and a release at precisely the right moment when it all comes together. Like musical improvisation, it just flows ... hard to describe the moment but you know it when you experience it, very satisfying. Of course, it's all good.*


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## BC-Slinger (Jan 6, 2013)

It kind of seems like to me watching all the tournament footage I can. You see people shooting TTF and aiming. There is almost no one shooting over the top and winning. I mean that ruffles the feathers of over the top shooters but it is true. Does that mean that they can not enjoy over the top slinging and do well with it ,no it doesn't. But If you are competitive and would like to win aim and shoot TTF.

As for intuitive shooting and aiming vs one another it will be down to what you practice obviously the most. In which you will do better with anything you practice you can get good at. Do what you enjoy and feels right.

JMHO no science behind it. Just what I have observed

Cheers

Matt.K.M Aka BC-Slinger


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

I wasn't really going for "which is better?" I was going for people's opinions.

I've been shooting since I was 7 years old and had my first gun of my own at 10. I started using a bow and slingshot around the time I could pull adult ones back. Around 10 or so. I think a lot of fundamentals carry over.

I think I have pretty good form and a consistent draw point so maybe that's why I'm having success with instinctual shooting.

With every form of shooting at least half of it seems to be having fundamentals down.

It's interesting that tournament shooters are all TTF. The best short range shooter I have seen is PFSshooter and he shoots both OTT and what looks like instinctual.

I'm never going to be a tournament shooter. I am hitting targets the size of a quarter at about 30 feet and my groups are really tight so I'm pretty happy.

I definitely didn't mean sloppy shooting. I meant using instinct once you have good fundamentals.

I plan to get an Ocularus Beanflip soon so I'll be able to try all sorts of shooting on the same catty.

Anyways. Thanks for the replies.

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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Phoul Mouth said:


> Everyone shoots differently. Some shoot TTF better the OTT. Some shoot pinch grip better than hammer grip. Some shoot intuitively better than aiming.
> 
> There is no "this way is definitely better than that way". It is all about finding what works best for you, then further practicing shooting like that.
> 
> Here is an intuitive shooter for you:


Thanks. I'd forgotten about that guy. It seems like the videos of him and PFSshooter show around the same skill level. And both shoot quickly which seems to maximise the power of the bands.

Rufus used friggin rocks and other irregular ammo, so he's pretty amazing. (Was?)



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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Here is my suggestion ... If you shoot as well as you claim ("I am hitting targets the size of a quarter at about 30 feet and my groups are really tight"), then you should have no problem getting accuracy badges:

http://slingshotforum.com/topic/20427-competition-slingshot-qualification-badge/

I do not believe anyone yet has obtained those badges shooting "intuitively" ... all the badge earners have been aimers. Maybe you will be the first "intuitive" shooter to get an accuracy badge.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## FermentedPickle (Mar 7, 2016)

Charles said:


> Here is my suggestion ... If you shoot as well as you claim ("I am hitting targets the size of a quarter at about 30 feet and my groups are really tight"), then you should have no problem getting accuracy badges:
> 
> http://slingshotforum.com/topic/20427-competition-slingshot-qualification-badge/
> 
> ...


Hey Charles, how do you know that nobody was shooting intuitively? Is it something they usually state before the video?

I shoot both ways personally, I shoot distance much better while hard line aiming, but for 10 yards and less I feel like I am about just as accurate just by focusing on the target and feeling the shot.

I am not being snarky, I am genuinely curious how you know that nobody was shooting intuitively for the accuracy badges.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Charles said:


> Here is my suggestion ... If you shoot as well as you claim ("I am hitting targets the size of a quarter at about 30 feet and my groups are really tight"), then you should have no problem getting accuracy badges:
> 
> http://slingshotforum.com/topic/20427-competition-slingshot-qualification-badge/
> 
> ...


I should have clarified. I should have said I am hitting targets around the size of a quarter at thirty feet REGULARLY. I'd say about 75% of the time. And I don't mean I'm hitting Washington on the nose every time. I draw a line in marker around the bottom of a soup can and I rarely have a shot hit outside of that at between 25-30 feet.

And the guys I see in tournaments are hitting bullseyes on targets that look smaller than a match head from where they are standing. PFSshooter can hit an asprin he throws in the air. One of the guys can light a match with his slingshot at a range where I don't think I could even see it. I'm nowhere near those guys level.

I don't think hitting an inch size target at ABOUT 30 feet MOST of the time is going to set any records.

If you think I am a bullshitter just say so.

If I took your post as more offensive than was intended I apologize in advance.

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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

I just measured the distance I shoot at and it's 25 feet from my fork to the target. I was hitting bold 1" letters 75% of the time today.

I'm also using a pickle fork shooter and those seem to be particularly good for short range instinctual shooting.

I should have been more accurate. I didn't mean to represent myself as a better shot than I am.

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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

The older and blinder I get, the more I just shoot "instinctively". As long as I know and "feel" where the target is, I shoot away.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Imperial said:


> The older and blinder I get, the more I just shoot "instinctively". As long as I know and "feel" where the target is, I shoot away.


I think I may be doing a combination of the two. I check my band alignment every few shots to make sure my form is dead on and consistent. I have both eyes on the target though and am actually more accurate that way than if I use a fork to aim.

I'm working on firing as soon as I'm at full draw to maximise the power of my bands.


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

I've become more of a pfs user over the past couple of so years And I see it as more of a "feel" than an " instinctive" thing. No matter what you shoot with, if you don't feel it, you won't hit it.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Imperial said:


> I've become more of a pfs user over the past couple of so years And I see it as more of a "feel" than an " instinctive" thing. No matter what you shoot with, if you don't feel it, you won't hit it.


Yea. I think instinctual was the wrong wording. I have many hours practice trying to perfect my band alignment etc. It's not like I just picked a slingshot up for the first time.

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## fsa46 (Jul 8, 2012)

How do you know when someone is shooting instinctive or aiming by looking at the videos ? I no expert but the way I look at it is, if someone is shooting instinctive they pull back and let her fly, ( like Rufus ), when someone is aiming, they draw back and take a few seconds ( more or less ) to aim and shoot. I don't think an instinctive shooter is going to draw and hold before shooting.

If some of these awesome shooters that have badges , cutting cards and lighting matches would reply, I think you would find out the Charles is 100% correct ..... they are all aimers.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

fsa46 said:


> How do you know when someone is shooting instinctive or aiming by looking at the videos ? I no expert but the way I look at it is, if someone is shooting instinctive they pull back and let her fly, ( like Rufus ), when someone is aiming, they draw back and take a few seconds ( more or less ) to aim and shoot. I don't think an instinctive shooter is going to draw and hold before shooting.
> 
> If some of these awesome shooters that have badges , cutting cards and lighting matches would reply, I think you would find out the Charles is 100% correct ..... they are all aimers.


The guy lighting the match definitely aims. I can't think of his name but he's well known in slingshot circles.

The guy I was talking about that can shoot an asprin, pennies, etc in midair is an instinctive shooter. He also gets significantly higher fps because he releases as soon as he's at full extension. I've never seen anything he can't hit within 15 yards or so. I haven't seen him do long range stuff so I don't know how he does there.

I value both techniques. If I was going to go rabbit hunting I would take the instinctive shooter 10/10 times. If I needed someone to knock down stationary targets at long range I would choose an aimer.

I also don't think these are mutually exclusive techniques. The same person can chose the method applicable to different applications.

It seems odd that most of those who favor instinctive shooting seem to respect the aimers but the aimers seem to disdain instinct shooters. It seems pretty silly to me.

Just my 2 cents.

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## fsa46 (Jul 8, 2012)

[/quote]
The guy lighting the match definitely aims. I can't think of his name but he's well known in slingshot circles.

The guy I was talking about that can shoot an asprin, pennies, etc in midair is an instinctive shooter. He also gets significantly higher fps because he releases as soon as he's at full extension. I've never seen anything he can't hit within 15 yards or so. I haven't seen him do long range stuff so I don't know how he does there.

I value both techniques. If I was going to go rabbit hunting I would take the instinctive shooter 10/10 times. If I needed someone to knock down stationary targets at long range I would choose an aimer.

I also don't think these are mutually exclusive techniques. The same person can chose the method applicable to different applications.

It seems odd that most of those who favor instinctive shooting seem to respect the aimers but the aimers seem to disdain instinct shooters. It seems pretty silly to me.

Just my 2 cents.

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[/quote]

You make a good point and I absolutely agree, a person shooting aspirins and pennies out of the air sure as heck isn't aiming.


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## Ibojoe (Mar 13, 2016)

If I could shoot a pickle fork like that I would be tickled! Keep up the good shooting!!!!


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## CornDawg (Sep 27, 2015)

Slingshooting doesn't lend itself to aiming, in my opinion. The variables overwhelm the sightline. Band angles, release points, ammo placement in the pouch, millimeter variances in hold, inconsistent propulsion speeds...etc, don't equate to success when compared to say, a rifle, where those variables are addressed with barrel, breach, adjustable sights, consistent charges, and no active participation in the propulsion dynamic. We "aim" all the time without tangible sight reference. Shooting free throws, tossing a frisbee, hitting a tennis ball, heck-- throwing anything. I have to feel it myself, but you'd be hard pressed to determine that by watching me shoot. Hussey said, "First, ya gotta see the target." That is still the best advice I've ever received regarding this sport. Well, that and when Volp suggested making the draw stroke independent of lower body circumstance. I was shocked at how stable I became after practicing for awhile on one foot.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

I totally agree.

I am working on making it one continuous motion so that I can maximise the power of my bands but I probably look like I'm aiming to some degree. It's more of me checking to make sure I have good form. I've found if I have great form I hit what I'm looking at.

Obviously aiming works for a lot of people though.

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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Ibojoe said:


> If I could shoot a pickle fork like that I would be tickled! Keep up the good shooting!!!!


Thanks!

I've never uploaded a video but maybe I'll try soon.

I really don't consider myself that great. I do decent at this short range but past 40 feet or so I suck.

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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

inconvenience said:


> Charles said:
> 
> 
> > Here is my suggestion ... If you shoot as well as you claim ("I am hitting targets the size of a quarter at about 30 feet and my groups are really tight"), then you should have no problem getting accuracy badges:
> ...


I certainly did not mean to be offensive. I just like to encourage folks to do precision shooting ... to be able to hit their target reliably. I really meant my suggestion. If you are shooting that well, then you should be able to qualify for most of the accuracy badges. Personally, I do not care one bit whether you aim or shoot "instinctively" or wear a blindfold when you shoot ... just as long as you can hit your target. If you can hit a quarter sized target 75% of the time from 25-30 feet, then you should have no trouble qualifying for a number of the badges. And as I said before, you will be the first to qualify by shooting instinctively rather than by aiming.

Cheers .... Charles


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Charles said:


> inconvenience said:
> 
> 
> > Charles said:
> ...


I'm sincerely sorry. I try to live by the old cliche "offence is never given, but taken." I let myself slip up here.

I'll look into the badge. I don't consider myself all that great but when I have my fundamentals down I hit what I want most of the time at such short range. I think 12m is the shortest range tournaments score so, I'm still a bit shy of even that mark.

I hope I've made it pretty clear I respect aiming. And I do it myself at longer ranges.

Thanks for being so gracious in the face of my immature reaction.

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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

FermentedPickle said:


> Charles said:
> 
> 
> > Here is my suggestion ... If you shoot as well as you claim ("I am hitting targets the size of a quarter at about 30 feet and my groups are really tight"), then you should have no problem getting accuracy badges:
> ...


All you have to do is look at the videos. You will have no trouble seeing when someone is aiming.

I strongly encourage you to try for some of the accuracy badges. You will be amazed at how it improves your shooting. And I do not care at all how you shoot ... aim or not. Just develop your skills so that you can hit small targets reliably at 10 meters and more.

A lot of folks seem to confuse shooting a pfs with shooting instinctively ... the two are not connected. Rufus Hussy, that everyone points to, was an instinctive shooter, and he shot naturals. On the other hand, there have been two PFS accuracy challenges on this forum, and everyone who entered was aiming.

http://slingshotforum.com/topic/28976-pfs-accuracy-challenge/page-1

http://slingshotforum.com/topic/34815-another-pfs-accuracy-challenge-for/

You can aim a pfs just like you would with any normal frame. And you can shoot instinctively with any frame.

And you should not confuse speed of release with intuitive shooting. For example, just watch videos of BC-Slinger shooting. He has a very fast release but is aiming.






Soooo, use whatever shooting style you like ... but try to improve your ability to actually hit your target. Going for the accuracy badges is an excellent way to objectively assess your skills ... and to improve your abilities.

Cheers ...... Charles


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Charles said:


> FermentedPickle said:
> 
> 
> > Charles said:
> ...


Oh yes. I didn't mean to imply you couldn't aim with a pfs. Just that for me, is seems more an extension of my hand than a full fork slingshot.

I also have a bum wrist from being a brawler in my youth. The low forks put less stress on it.

My next project will be sort of a low fork full grip OTT shooter.

Anyways. Thanks for the recommendations.

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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

inconvenience said:


> Charles said:
> 
> 
> > inconvenience said:
> ...


No problem at all, and no need to apologize.

As for distances ... the first level of the target badges is 10 meters, which is 33 feet. All of the Pocket Predator badges (card cut, match light, etc.) are shot at 10 meters. And all of the tournaments with which I am familiar are shot at 10 meters. So your skills seem to be in the right range. You never know until you try, and I urge you to give it a go.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## poekoelan (Jan 1, 2013)

I am of the opinion that everyone aims, at least according to the definition of the word "aim". Look up the definition. If no one aimed, no one would ever hit a target. Some just do it faster or differently.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

While I agree with the spirit of what you wrote, I think we are using a strict definition in this instance.

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## Chuck Daehler (Mar 17, 2015)

I think the thread was about discussing instinctive/spontaneous vs aiming, wasn't it?

To continue with the thread, Fred, when I was a boy, slingshot and bow were both instinctive and I did very well. For a number of years I didn't shoot bows nor slingshots. When I returned to each sport I couldn't hit a bull in the buttocks with a banjo instinctively! I practiced a lot and no soap. So I bought a compound bow with a string peep sight and sight window adjustable sights and before long was spot on and even better than when I was a kid instinctive shooting.

I relapsed again in to non shooting..work and no play and just faded interest until a few years ago I got back on the band wagon and shot bow and slingshots. Again I tried instinctive and failed miserably and went to aiming. What's this say? I dunno. It's a pity I lost my boyhood smarts on shooting instinctively...that's all. I did have to change from right hand to left hand due to a failed right eye for aiming...but that was back in the late 60s...I was 21 or 22 then.

It's good to be happy with what you do...practice both ways, it's free to shoot slingshots practically so what makes the diff if one way surpasses the other? If you like banana splits and also like Belgian waffles with raspberries and whipped cream too, knock yerself out and eat 'em both the same day!

Lemme add, I don't think Charles was being inflamitory, I was thinking the same thing that you should have some badge work in the works...that's if you dig badges (which I don't personally). I can see why many here are slick sleeves, badgeless. I hate to fool with videos for one and for two I haven't a vid cam, Susi my wife does but it's like stuffing a rattle snake into a Coke bottle to get her to take pictures with her zesty Galaxy smartazz phone. I wouldn't bore here in the first place with requests. "Wait a minute, let's do another take, I missed again because you are watching me or the wind blew the ammo off or the ball hit a fly and veered to the right" or or or" and so on. Take 165 I cut a card. So? But the marvelous public doesn't know it's take 165...they think I just woke up, stumbled out and shot a card in half. And?

I'm not knocking those who have a wad of badges, for them it's fun and worth while...for me, no. I enjoy shooting just as is, without a compulsion to achieve, it's to relax and enjoy and NOT have to achieve, that's the beauty of it for me. Years of being an over achiever burnt me out on the compulsion. I shoot to feel good, not be angry at myself or the slingshot or the wind or whatever. Not to find blame. That would ruin the experience for me. Sellers of slingshots should have lots of badges to make their product look better. (?)


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Chuck Daehler said:


> I think the thread was about discussing instinctive/spontaneous vs aiming, wasn't it?
> 
> To continue with the thread, Fred, when I was a boy, slingshot and bow were both instinctive and I did very well. For a number of years I didn't shoot bows nor slingshots. When I returned to each sport I couldn't hit a bull in the buttocks with a banjo instinctively! I practiced a lot and no soap. So I bought a compound bow with a string peep sight and sight window adjustable sights and before long was spot on and even better than when I was a kid instinctive shooting.
> 
> ...


Yea. I'm definitely shooting just for the fun of it. Although I may try for the badges just as a benchmark.

For whatever reason, maybe I just suck, I do better at short range if I have both eyes on the target, relax, and just let her fly. I do have strict form though. Intuitive probably isn't the right word.

I absolutely use both styles. I was mostly just looking for people's opinions here.

I appreciate your input. And I can empathize with you about the medical issues. I'm about to turn 44 so I can definitely tell the warantee has expired.

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## Chuck Daehler (Mar 17, 2015)

LOL, hehe, I'm pushing 70 and the warranty over all is still pretty good actually, a few minor issues of course, LOL, but I lost center vision in my right eye not because of age, it was in the mid sixties in a little place called Nui Ba Din or "Black Mountain" on op. I was real lucky that's all I got...many weren't. I went from firearms to slingshots and bow but changed eyes and right to left. My dominant eye is definitely my left eye by default.

Sometimes the forum heats up a bit over essentially nothing or misread posts not intended to inflame but to inform. Sometimes people read things into posts that simply are not there. A pat on the back or recommendation can even be misconstrued courtesy of one's imagination or paranoia. Charles does fine with complementing folks as he did you. If you just read the text and take it as a pat on the back then that's what I sincerely believe Charles, one of the most caring and courteous moderators here, said. Texting is not talking face to face with facial expressions, gestures and body language and sometimes what is meant to be said is misinterpreted by a reader. This is essentially texting. Believe me I've been pee'd on for innocent statements (and some which were not so innocent and I deserved it)...forums are just like that. Overall this forum is just fine in my very humble opinion, a few hot heads don't comprise all 1800 members. Been raining all day here, bored schitless...don't wanna make another frame today either ahd have four in the works. Wife is off to Quito to see a dyeing aunt on her death bed so dogs and I are bacheloring it.

Good you are shooting instinctively, I'd rather be good at that than aiming but life isn't so. When I watch the Spain meets they aim for a looong time but they hit. I try to aim for the shortest time and still hit, sometimes I have to take longer and thus aim a bit higher because the elastic loses some punch if held more than a couple seconds.

Shooting high power bands, I wiggle a bit more and hence am not as accurate as with lower power bands. I target shoot only so ammo size isn't important as it would be to a hunter. My bursitis shoulders are talking to me so lighter bands are more often used...with lighter ammo. I have diminished my pull poundage by about 35% to reduce pain to a minimum...and it betters accuracy too so I'm fine.


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## Chuck Daehler (Mar 17, 2015)

The wrist I pull with suffered a masonry diamond saw cut to the bone with my big ole hand grinder that got away from me as it bounced out of a brick I was cutting, a couple weeks back, and it's healing, and I fell while running across some road mesh on the same wrist somewhat spraining it, left wrist,...two dumb things after another, me being the dummy, almost all healed but talks to me like a sprain would...another reason I've backed off band strength. Better judgment and coordination would be my prescription.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Chuck Daehler said:


> The wrist I pull with suffered a masonry diamond saw cut to the bone with my big ole hand grinder that got away from me as it bounced out of a brick I was cutting, a couple weeks back, and it's healing, and I fell while running across some road mesh on the same wrist somewhat spraining it, left wrist,...two dumb things after another, me being the dummy, almost all healed but talks to me like a sprain would...another reason I've backed off band strength. Better judgment and coordination would be my prescription.


I wanted to say first that I acknowledged a while back I took offense where none was intended. It was a moment of immaturity on my part. It's probably lost in the middle of the thread.

You shared a bit of your medical woes so I'll share a bit of mine.

Before that I want to thank you for putting your ass on the line in our military. However you ended up there. I did 4 in the Marines but I was just a desk jockey.

My left wrist is screwed from me brawling and hitting a heavy bag in my youth. I can handle the pain but my hand goes numb after too much stress. I guess it's pinching a nerve. I was even warned way back then I wound pay later, but I knew better than some old guy, right?

I've tried to go southpaw as pulling the pouch doesn't hurt as much as holding the slingshot. But I get fork hits and I can't hit anything smaller than a pie pan at 20 feet that way. I'm working on getting the VA to look at it.

Anyhoo. Thanks again for your input.

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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

An update. I had an embarrassing moment yesterday where I missed a can in front of a couple of guys. It was past my intuitive range.

I noticed that I can still shoot pretty fast and increase my accuracy by doing sort of a half-aim.

Both of my eyes are on the target but I can still use the top fork (I shoot "gangster") as a reference to aim without actually having it in focus. I almost couldn't miss cans up to the limit of "flat" trajectory after this.

Thanks for the input guys.

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## bread (Apr 11, 2016)

Good discussion. I immediately went out and took ten shots from 30 feet releasing the moment my aim point touched the target/bullseye and I shot better! Usually I hold and try to really fine tune my shot. I know 10 shots is not a very big sample to hang my hat on but I have been shooting less than 2 weeks so I'm very encouraged at any improvement!


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

bread said:


> Good discussion. I immediately went out and took ten shots from 30 feet releasing the moment my aim point touched the target/bullseye and I shot better! Usually I hold and try to really fine tune my shot. I know 10 shots is not a very big sample to hang my hat on but I have been shooting less than 2 weeks so I'm very encouraged at any improvement!


You can get faster either way. And I'm having second thoughts about being an intuitive shooter. I cut a beer can in half today, most of it at 50', and without aiming I couldn't have done it. But at short range it does seem to work well.

It's not an either/or thing anyway.

Glad you're here buddy, you seem as excited about it as I am to be back into it.

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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

bread said:


> Good discussion. I immediately went out and took ten shots from 30 feet releasing the moment my aim point touched the target/bullseye and I shot better! Usually I hold and try to really fine tune my shot. I know 10 shots is not a very big sample to hang my hat on but I have been shooting less than 2 weeks so I'm very encouraged at any improvement!


Oh. One other thing. Being able to shoot pretty fast once you are at full extension also makes your shots hit harder. There is some sort of physics that makes the latex molecules lose potential(?) energy the longer they are held at an extended position.

But get your fundamentals down first. Speed will come. 

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## bread (Apr 11, 2016)

Thanks inconvenience, I am excited about slingshots! It's nice to find a hobby that is so easy to start and get into relatively inexpensively. My slingshot, extra set of bands and a 250 round box of 1/4 balls was less than 15 dollars. I spent some time reading these forums and came up with a target that catches virtually all my practice shots. I had fun casting my own lead slugs with a wooden homemade mold. I'd like to shoot even more but like you, injuries from my youth limit the volume of shots I can take at any session. It's getting better though. The first session I shot, I could only shoot 10 rounds! My shoulder was sore/shaky and my draw forefinger and thumb were too!


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Hey guys ... just keep at it. I will be 72 this year, and I have fairly serious arthritis, especially in my thumbs and wrists. I cannot handle big frames nor heavy draw bands. Try some tapered flat bands and a long draw ... you will get very good speed without so much strain. I also use a finger hook and thumb brace up high at the band ties, and that puts a lot less strain on my fork hand. I could not shoot hammer style ... too much torque on my poor old hands.

Cheers .... Charles


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## bread (Apr 11, 2016)

Hey Charles, in my short (thus far) slingshot shooting career, I have seen LOTS of people using that full (butterfly?)draw. It seems those ho use that style are lightly holding the pouch. Is thin bands what makes that work? I felt like they must be studs with years of practice to take that full draw. Do you get a high fps with thin bands and a full draw?


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

bread said:


> Hey Charles, in my short (thus far) slingshot shooting career, I have seen LOTS of people using that full (butterfly?)draw. It seems those ho use that style are lightly holding the pouch. Is thin bands what makes that work? I felt like they must be studs with years of practice to take that full draw. Do you get a high fps with thin bands and a full draw?


If I may attempt an answer. Most of the guys I see doing that are going for raw power. I see few guys doing that at championships. I've tried it a few times and can't hit the broad side of a barn yet.

But quality latex flats seem to give more power for the same pull. You'll have to get or make yourself a different kind of slingshot for those, but for me it's worth it. My setup right now takes about half the draw of a store bought tube set but throws the shot faster. I've heard flats wear out faster but it's worth it to me.

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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Charles said:


> Hey guys ... just keep at it. I will be 72 this year, and I have fairly serious arthritis, especially in my thumbs and wrists. I cannot handle big frames nor heavy draw bands. Try some tapered flat bands and a long draw ... you will get very good speed without so much strain. I also use a finger hook and thumb brace up high at the band ties, and that puts a lot less strain on my fork hand. I could not shoot hammer style ... too much torque on my poor old hands.
> 
> Cheers .... Charles


Thanks Charles. I may buy the Ocularus Beanflip which has that sort of grip option or make myself something with that sort of grip. It's how I hold my OPFS.

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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

bread said:


> Hey Charles, in my short (thus far) slingshot shooting career, I have seen LOTS of people using that full (butterfly?)draw. It seems those ho use that style are lightly holding the pouch. Is thin bands what makes that work? I felt like they must be studs with years of practice to take that full draw. Do you get a high fps with thin bands and a full draw?


The secret to high velocity is a long acceleration path ... NOT heavy draw bands. You can cut Theraband gold with a good taper, say 1 inch tapering to about 1/2, cut longer than you would usually use. That should give a light draw weight. Personally, I use a "floating" anchor, rather than full butterfly ... draw back to your shoulder or just beyond. The fellow who set the new record is a good example:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTUxOTMwMTU5Mg==.html?from=s1.8-1-1.2#paction

Cheers ..... Charles


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Charles said:


> bread said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Charles, in my short (thus far) slingshot shooting career, I have seen LOTS of people using that full (butterfly?)draw. It seems those ho use that style are lightly holding the pouch. Is thin bands what makes that work? I felt like they must be studs with years of practice to take that full draw. Do you get a high fps with thin bands and a full draw?
> ...


Nice Charles. I didn't notice that before. I may give TTF another try because I shoot "gangster" and to draw the pouch back like that and still twist it would be hard.

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## Greyman (Mar 9, 2016)

Charles said:


> Hey guys ... just keep at it. I will be 72 this year, and I have fairly serious arthritis, especially in my thumbs and wrists. I cannot handle big frames nor heavy draw bands. Try some tapered flat bands and a long draw ... you will get very good speed without so much strain. I also use a finger hook and thumb brace up high at the band ties, and that puts a lot less strain on my fork hand. I could not shoot hammer style ... too much torque on my poor old hands.
> 
> Cheers .... Charles


 just a thought Charles, but I recently made a starship from a crutch, the power is well above my normal natty,s but the effort to hold it and draw the bands is far less, I can actually hold it on my thumb on a good pull, maybe worth a try


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## jazz (May 15, 2012)

Hi all,

I will just try to rephrase what Charles has already said, hope this is ok.

The formula that calculates the exit velocity of the projectile takes both power AND the length of the draw to calculate it (lets say that the weight of the ammo and the pouch are fixed in this example) and they both have positive relation to the velocity (longer the draw - higher the velocity; stronger the draw - higher the velocity.

Now, in practice this means that if drawing to the corner of your mouth you have 4 kg of the power and 80 cm of the length of the draw, and say ammo is 3.5 g heavy, then you are likely to reach some velocity, say 40 m/s.

But if drawing the full butterfly draw you have 150 cm of draw length then you need only some 2.1 kg of power of your draw to send the same 3.5 g ammo at the same velocity.

(Please note that my numbers need not be correct, but the logic is.)

I do not shoot butterfly now, but I think that besides being a cool way to shoot a slongshot, possibly some other reasons too, this fact is co-responsible for many people shooting butterfly - because they reach the same velocity with less work.

Of course, you can have butterfly length of the draw AND a very powerfull draw, and then you simply get MONSTER velocities and monster energies (especialy if the ammo is enlarged too), just watch the videos of this guy shooting 20 mm steel balls and you will see what I mean.

cheers,

jazz


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

jazz said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I will just try to rephrase what Charles has already said, hope this is ok.
> 
> ...


Have you guys seen the guy that uses spear gun tubing to put 75 cal balls through 1/2" fiberboard? I think he's going over 400 fps with that monster. It's a handheld too.

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## bread (Apr 11, 2016)

Thanks Charles and inconvenience, great explanations! That must be why office rubber bands can be fairly powerful. I just made two slingshot using two sets of two. They are fun to shoot but lack speed. It sounds like I could add one or two more sets and increase my draw length to get more speed. I used the Alliance #64 which I learned about on Slingshot Forums!


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

jazz said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I will just try to rephrase what Charles has already said, hope this is ok.
> 
> ...


Jazz, I have one correction. A heavier draw weight does not correlate very well with velocity, assuming normal slingshot ammo. What really matters is the speed of retraction of the bands. For a simple example, bands cut from modern auto or bicycle inner tubes will have a very high draw weight, but will not give you very good velocity. The problem is that the material from which the tubes are made (often butyl rather than latex) has a slow retraction rate as compared to latex.

Suppose you use a normal bit of slingshot ammo, say .38 steel for example. Cut some Theraband gold into one inch wide flat bands. Use a draw length of about 31 inches or so. You will find that doubling or tripling the bands will not yield higher velocity, even though the draw weight is much greater. Unless you are using very heavy ammo, too heavy for one set of bands, adding more bands will not increase your velocity.

As sort of an analogy, two VW vans welded side by side will not run a quarter mile drag strip any faster than one VW van on its own.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

bread said:


> Thanks Charles and inconvenience, great explanations! That must be why office rubber bands can be fairly powerful. I just made two slingshot using two sets of two. They are fun to shoot but lack speed. It sounds like I could add one or two more sets and increase my draw length to get more speed. I used the Alliance #64 which I learned about on Slingshot Forums!


A lot of us on this forum have extolled the virtues of Alliance #64 office bands ... the search function is your friend. They are not the fastest bands you can get, but they are pretty readily available, cheap, and easy to set up. Go over to the bands and tubes section and browse for a while.

Cheers .... Charles


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

bread said:


> Thanks Charles and inconvenience, great explanations! That must be why office rubber bands can be fairly powerful. I just made two slingshot using two sets of two. They are fun to shoot but lack speed. It sounds like I could add one or two more sets and increase my draw length to get more speed. I used the Alliance #64 which I learned about on Slingshot Forums!


The best IMO are red clay 32's. You make a set of three loops of 3. They are about as hot some of the lower Thera-bands. They will push 9mm steel plenty fast.

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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

jazz said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I will just try to rephrase what Charles has already said, hope this is ok.
> 
> ...


Jazz thanks again for your post. I love to see the science behind this stuff. I almost wish we had a technical geek subforum about stuff like rubber entropy and crystals and heat loss etc.

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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Charles said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Hi all,
> ...


Thanks Charles. I'm getting amazing performance from double red Thera-band as it's the only stuff available locally. I plan to order some gold soon but I may be approaching the limit for 9mm steel with this setup.

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## jazz (May 15, 2012)

Hi Charles,

I agree with your explanation in the sense that doubling the power will not rise/double the velocity - but this relates to the bands themselves.

What I had on my mind is that a given power/width of the bands (say 1 inch TBG etc..) will send a given ammo to a given velocity, but the double width of the same band, will send the SAME ammo somewhat faster - I do not say it will be two times faster, but faster in any case.

We can look at it this way also: a given rubber, say TBG has a given retraction velocity when it is unloaded neither with the ammo nor with the pouch, no matter how wide it is.

Then, when you start to load it with heavier and heavier ammo, the velocity of the ammo will fall.

The same will happen when you take two times wider TBG and load it withe the same heavier and heavier ammo - the velocity of the ammo will fal but NOT that fast as in the first case.

This I had on my mind.

By the way, the total consideration of how the exit velocity will be high for a given setup I first time encountered in Menzels famous article "Power, A Small Theoretical Approach.. etc.) It takes into account: the power of the draw; the length of the draw, more specificaly elongation (understandably we speak here of the same Ratio, say 5 as we usualy work with); the weight of the pouch; the weight of the ammo; and, yes, the weight of the rubbers themselves.

So I think that we speak of the same thing but from different aspects.

cheers,

jazz


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## bread (Apr 11, 2016)

Hey guys, I have seen numerous references to red clay 32s, but I am not clear what they are. I know 32 is a smaller size in the Alliance line, but I'm stumped on the red clay. Are these office rubber? Are they a certain brand?


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

bread said:


> Hey guys, I have seen numerous references to red clay 32s, but I am not clear what they are. I know 32 is a smaller size in the Alliance line, but I'm stumped on the red clay. Are these office rubber? Are they a certain brand?


It's a type, the easiest place to find them I have found is a traditional toy store. They use them 4 rubber band gun ammo. You can get a giant bag for $5.

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## MakeSlingshots (Jul 16, 2015)

I dont aim I just look at the target and release, I guess thats just how I learned to shoot.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

MakeSlingshots said:


> I dont aim I just look at the target and release, I guess thats just how I learned to shoot.


I started a sort of hybrid aiming two days ago and my shots are becoming more consistent. Cut my first can in half.

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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

You can get those red #32 bands from rubberbandguns.com:

http://www.rubberbandguns.com/ammunition/ammunition-size-32-red

And here I am qualifying for Power Rangers using those bands:






Cheers ..... Charles


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

jazz said:


> Hi Charles,
> 
> I agree with your explanation in the sense that doubling the power will not rise/double the velocity - but this relates to the bands themselves.
> 
> ...


Take a set of bands, say TBG, square cut, one inch wide. Shoot some 3/8 inch steel over a chrony. Now, take ONE of those bands and cut it in two on a taper ... 5/8 on one end to 3/8 at the other. Use those with the same fork, pouch and ammo. Now shoot that over a chrony. The tapered band set, using HALF the rubber, will shoot faster, and it will have a lighter draw weight.

You can get a similar result by perforating the bands ... properly done, the perforated bands (note you are removing band material) will actually shoot faster.

http://slingshotforum.com/topic/10911-taper-by-perforation/

Cheers .... Charles


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Greyman said:


> Charles said:
> 
> 
> > Hey guys ... just keep at it. I will be 72 this year, and I have fairly serious arthritis, especially in my thumbs and wrists. I cannot handle big frames nor heavy draw bands. Try some tapered flat bands and a long draw ... you will get very good speed without so much strain. I also use a finger hook and thumb brace up high at the band ties, and that puts a lot less strain on my fork hand. I could not shoot hammer style ... too much torque on my poor old hands.
> ...


I use a King Cat and an extended King Cat for my Power Rangers shoots. You can see the King Cat in the video I posted above ... or browse the Power Rangers entries for more examples.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Charles said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Charles,
> ...


Wow Charles. I had no idea tapers were that great. I'd love to know the underlying physics behind that. I'm going to cut some tonight.

I know the basics about rubber that is stretched crystallizes latex molecules and that it wants to return to an entropic state.

I can understand that stuff when it has an application and isn't just formulas.

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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

inconvenience said:


> Charles said:
> 
> 
> > jazz said:
> ...


The basic idea is pretty simple.

The bands have to accelerate themselves, plus the pouch, plus the ammo. The part of the bands that has to be accelerated the furthest is nearest the pouch. By removing mass down near the pouch, the acceleration of that end will be faster. The bands near the forks do not have to be accelerated as far, so the mass there is not as significant.

And I should add that the narrower end of the taper will be stretched more closely to its maximum, and hence will deliver more power. BUT because it is stretched more to its maximum, it will not last as long. Tapered bands do not last as long as straight cut bands.

Cheers .... Charles


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Charles said:


> inconvenience said:
> 
> 
> > Charles said:
> ...


This is my only hobby now. I want to maximise the performance I get for the amount of pull my bum wrist can handle. Anything that can help that is worth the expense.

It makes a lot of sense though on a basic level. The band isn't having to accelerate so much of itself.

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## MakeSlingshots (Jul 16, 2015)

yah thats probably closer to what I do..  have fun with new precision.


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## CornDawg (Sep 27, 2015)

This may seem insignificant, but for folks who aim, what is clearly in focus just before your release, the target or the fork tip?


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## Greyman (Mar 9, 2016)

Charles said:


> Greyman said:
> 
> 
> > Charles said:
> ...


i should have known you would be a step ahead Charles, pretty much the same size as my crutch version with simular pressure points, and I can see myself moving moving more toward this style as time moves on A.T.B Paul


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## jazz (May 15, 2012)

Hi Charles and all,

I do not believe that you do not understand the concepts that I talk about, because some of them I learned from you, neither I think that you misunderstood me because your knowledge of slingshots and your command of English are far better than mine, I simply think that, most probably, I did not express myself well.

However, if the things stay as they are now I am afraid that some people who might not be familiar with these concepts might be puzzled or get a wrong picture, so I have to try to clarify some things I said before.

I will restate that stronger bands, say 2x2 cm will accelerate a given ammo, say 4 grams, faster than 2x1 cm bands - all other relevant things being equal such as, for example, TBG active length 15 cm, total draw 75 cm, Stretch Ratio 5 etc.) - and this is the meaning of my original statement/s in previous comments, sorry if I messed it up.

Here are some data and the graph that shows this. The data are close to TBG cut to above measurements and somewhat rounded for easier reading:









(Again, the correctness of the data, I believe, is not so much absoulute but relative, that is, in between two sets of rubber).

Both from the table and from the graph it is visible that a twice more powerful bands will accelerate the projectile FASTER so that 4 grams projectile gets the velocity of 47 m/s with 1.9 kg bands as oposed to 61.1 m/s with 3.8 kg bands.

Of course, the Gain in % is NOT twice, but only 29.1% for a 100% more power, but this is another, also well known story.

We all know that tapered bands perform beter than non-tapered ones, this I also learned in this forum, but I do not understand why you bring them into your explanation - I tried to be consistent with stright cut bands and make relevant comparisons between them.

If tapered bands bring anything different, it is ONLY their better performance relative to the stright cut bands, but inbetween tapered bands again, where one pair is cut twice the size of the other - the things then are exactly the same as with non-tapered bands - the stronger tapered bands (say 4 to 2 cm, will propell the same weight ammo FASTER than the weaker one, say 2 to 1 cm.. so we come to the same point, and I am sorry that I do not have any data for this but I relly on what has been said here in the forum before.

I also learned here in the forum that bands of the same kind have same velocity no matter (more or less) how wide they are cut but on the condition that the total length and the stretch ratio are the same.

This concept we can clearly see in the above table and the graph - the velocity of the rubber without projectile (projectile Weigh=0) is 105.8 m/s in both cases of weaker and stronger bands; we also see in the graph that the two lines meet at the exactly the same point (105.8 m/s) as the difference between them becomes smaller and smaller.

Just for arguments sake, we also know that (and I learned this from your explanations) the higher velocity can be gained not only by more powerful bands as above, but by extending the draw, of course, retaining the Stretch ratio.

As an illustration, the same weaker bands as described above (75 cm Total Draw, 15 cm Active Band Length, 2x1 cm stright cut, 1.9 kg of Power of Draw) when they are cut longer so that the total draw is twice=150 cm which with Stretch Ratio of 5 which gives 30 cm Active Length, and for the same 4 grams projectile - brings the velocity from 47.3 m/2 to 66.9 m/s, and for a Projectile Weight=0 the speed of that rubber becomes 149.6 m/s!

So in the first case we had the same speed of weaker and of stronger bands when projectile weight = 0, and in the second case and for the situation where the projectile weight = 0, we made the speed of bare rubber HIGHER by extending the draw... loads of interesting stuff..!

This is the a relation also well known in this forum - that it is better to play with the length of draw if you can, then with the power of the rubber since although they both bring gain in the speed for a given weight of ammo, the extended draw makes this much more efficiently (twice power brings 29.1% gain in velocity for 4 grams projectile while twice the length of the draw brings 41.4% gain in velocity.

And this is the essence of my guess that one of the reasons why people shoot butterfly, besides being cool etc, is that they can have - if they want - same velocity of the projectile with less power but with somewhat longer draw..

Understanding these concepts, I am sure you will agree, helps the shooter, and especialy the ones who do not have surplus of power, to understand their options and set their setups so that they can shoot comfortably and still with satisfactory results.

cheers,

jazz

P.S. I made above calculations with Pouch Weight=0 so that it does not stand in the way; the real numbers for calculated velocities with realistic pouch weight would then be somewhat lower.


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## bread (Apr 11, 2016)

On the topic of aiming, I would like to ask whether it is better to aim with one eye open or both. Or perhaps I would like to ask which is more prevalent rather than which is better. I just tried shooting with both open. I shot better than aiming single eye. I always aimed shotguns with both eyes open. Of course, I was aiming at upland birds. Thanks in advance guys.


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

With intuitive shooting. 3 dementional targets much easier to hit then paper target. I don't know why. Just is. 10 meters a 5 for 5 with 3D three inch target shouldn't be to awfully hard. Now 20 meters likely to kick my tail for good while.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

jazz said:


> Hi Charles and all,
> 
> I do not believe that you do not understand the concepts that I talk about, because some of them I learned from you, neither I think that you misunderstood me because your knowledge of slingshots and your command of English are far better than mine, I simply think that, most probably, I did not express myself well.
> 
> ...


Thanks for such an informative post Jazz.

I think Charles meant that for any given ammo and pouch, you will reach a point of diminishing returns once the weight of said items becomes trivial for the power if your bands and you are approaching the maximum contraction rate for the rubber.

At least that's what I gathered with my limited intellect.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

bread said:


> On the topic of aiming, I would like to ask whether it is better to aim with one eye open or both. Or perhaps I would like to ask which is more prevalent rather than which is better. I just tried shooting with both open. I shot better than aiming single eye. I always aimed shotguns with both eyes open. Of course, I was aiming at upland birds. Thanks in advance guys.


I now move from single eye to two eyes once I know my band alignment is perfect. I am focused on the target but can still see the fork I am using as a reference point. It's a couple of seconds slower than my intuitive shooting but I'm gaining consistency.

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## jazz (May 15, 2012)

inconvenience said:


> Thanks for such an informative post Jazz.
> 
> I think Charles meant that for any given ammo and pouch, you will reach a point of diminishing returns once the weight of said items becomes trivial for the power if your bands and you are approaching the maximum contraction rate for the rubber.
> 
> At least that's what I gathered with my limited intellect.


Yes, this is very clear from the data above.

cheers,

jazz


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

I do both eyes open always. When shooting intuitively.


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

Had to switch from a right hand shooter to left. Due to left being dominate eye.


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## CornDawg (Sep 27, 2015)

CornDawg said:


> This may seem insignificant, but for folks who aim, what is clearly in focus just before your release, the target or the fork tip?


Full bumperoo to re-ask this question, because maybe my working definition of aiming is substandard. I propose that if your fork tip is not in focus as you release then you are NOT aiming. If the target is crisp as you release then you're actually doing what I do, and I've decided to call it waypointing, or intermediate targeting for those with anal tendencies. I have several reasons. Thanks.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

CornDawg said:


> CornDawg said:
> 
> 
> > This may seem insignificant, but for folks who aim, what is clearly in focus just before your release, the target or the fork tip?
> ...


It's very odd. Since I started this thread I've switched from a primary intuitive shooter to primary aimed shooter. I don't have the amazing streaks I had like on the day I posted this, but I shoot much better consistently.

Anyway, I'd agree with you. And I use the same technique as you describe when using my PFS. But with a full fork I use true aiming with the fork in focus at instant of release.


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

If the fork is laying on its side, and some point of the fork is used in relation to the target. Your aiming.
If your fork is canted at a angle. In your mind is antelizing the distance area between the pouch hand and fork hand at full draw. Wondering if this alinement is correct to conect with target futher out. That's intuitive.
Bigest disavantage of intuitive shooting I know of is . Is often nessacery to shoot a few to get dialed in so to speak. So that your guessing becomes a little more accrate.


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

I would think that if Rufus was to go up against today BEST shooting shotgun shells at say 30. His competition would sweet.
In the hunting arinna. Once again today's best would again sweet. I think. Non aiming slingshot shooter can make beautiful shots at ranges out to 35 yards and do quite often. At times with first shot, but not always. With misses at longer ranges. Say 35 yards. The non aiming shooter will ajust his hold. If he was alined to the point that he felt he would hit his mark and struck high. On the second shot he knows to ajust the way the draw feels to bring down the striking point. Usually with in 3 shots he will get 12 oz can size target. 
Two of the most. To me. Enjoyable gifted shooters to watch is pfshooter and Hill Hays.
I saw pfshooter take out 3.. 12 oz cans at 30 some feet in like 2 sec or less.
Bill once took out 5 standard 9/16 or 5/8" marbles in a row. Sitting on golf tees at 33 feet.
As someone once told me. A slingshot can shoot as well as you can. The accuracy ain't limited. The finest pistols in the world. Shot free hand or on rest with the finest shooters. They would sweet to keep up with the above mentioned slingshot shooters. Its what I think.


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

No scope on those pistols though.


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

Sweat not sweet. Must be hungry for cake ice cream or something. Oh well


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Overthinking... Same is true for many different things. Drawing pictures for instance... Your brain is working everything out (if it has learnt what it needs to), trusting it can be interesting.


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

Yes
Intuitive 
If you point your finger at something without looking down it. Chances are you'll be pretty close.
Because you done it so much. No need to think. When the distance between pouch and fork feels alined with target. Let it go as smoothly as you can.
Learn when it's lined up by the way it feels. Much pratice.
I wish I could shoot all the time. like I can sometime. Is the
mantra of the intuitive shooter. That and thank god for digital cameras


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## Clang! (Jan 16, 2017)

I shoot slingshots the same way I shoot bows. A solid anchor and pick a point to focus on.

I'm a better shot an aiming reference, but it's less fun.


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## boby (Oct 7, 2012)

I've attached a short mostly pictorial exposition for showing what a slingshot shooter sees when he aims with a sighting approach compared to an instinctive (a.k.a. intuitive) approach. By the way, "aiming" seems to be an ambiguous term, so I'll use the term "sighting" for aligning to directly visible alignment aids, while "aiming" will refer to any method for directing a projectile to a target.

View attachment SSsighting.pdf


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

leadball said:


> Yes
> Intuitive
> If you point your finger at something without looking down it. Chances are you'll be pretty close.
> Because you done it so much. No need to think. When the distance between pouch and fork feels alined with target. Let it go as smoothly as you can.
> ...


I agree if you don't concentrate on one frame type and have very strict form.

I have less variation in my intuitive shooting than my aimed shooting.

But you are definitely right about the intuitive shooter that doesn't train and maintain muscle memory.

IMO it takes even more discipline to shoot intuitive right than to aim. But it's easy to half ass. (Sorry to reply to old post)


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## I like rubber (Jun 12, 2017)

They must be doing something right if they can hit pennies and aspirins out of the air.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

I like rubber said:


> They must be doing something right if they can hit pennies and aspirins out of the air.


Yea. But that is at the extreme end of practice.

I shoot intuitively. I would say my gains in accuraccy are much slower than aiming. But it's what I enjoy.


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

I like to aim then if I want to shoot faster i practice aiming faster .


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

I've seen videos of aimers who shoot pretty fast. For me it's just a preference to shoot intuitively. I don't think one is better than the other. I think aiming is more practical for most people.

I don't think intuitive shooting is some thing you "either can or can't do." I think it is a skill one may or may not have more aptitude for. And it requires a huge amount of practice to get right.


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## Ghost Tracker (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm a MUCH more experienced pistol shooter than I am a slinger. My personal evolution from "aiming" to "instinctive" shooting has more to do with eyesight. I can see razor sharp at a distance (20/15), yet my close-up eyesight requires 1.5X reading glasses (Geezer Goggles). I decided seeing the TARGET was prioritized above seeing my sights. So "aiming" is more like muscle-memory. "Watching" the bullets (or round balls) hit the target makes the whole endeavor both more accurate & more entertaining.


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

Correct me if I am mistaken but I know of no milatery or law enforcement agency that would train someone not to aim a firearm because it was not fast enough . I don't see why you would not use that same logic to slingshots unless you just like the challenge of shooting that way because is just fun .


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

For me its a little different. I assume I shoot instinctive... Basically when I was little and I learned to shoot slingshots the idea of 'aiming' them was a joke. Being the way they were constructed they were never made with accuracy - scissor-cut tube and often overly short as it was what we had etc. Basically EVERY time I banded a frame it shot differently.

So I 'feel' the shot - I adjust my grip and draw to how the rubber reacts, the weight of the projectile , and where I want the shot to go - and it does (surprisingly accurately 95% of the time) - I do exactly the same thing with a bow with the same result.

These days my setup is pretty consistent - and I aim and sometimes I don't. When I'm shooting instinctive I sometimes check and see how it all lines up. Interestingly its almost identical to if was aiming... Weird that.

I do think (or rather know) instinctive can be incredibly accurate. But I also know if I was to shoot a single ragged hole at 10-20m I'd need to aim.

So to sum it all up. Instinctive will bring home the bacon - aiming the trophies... Its the difference between a axe and a scalpel.

On a side note instinctive I hold the frame at 45º but aiming Gangsta...


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## Zachary Fowler (Mar 7, 2016)

They both have there place you cant hit a flying quarter aiming i think. And you would be hard pressed to light a match at 33 feet without aiming.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Intuitive firearms training is part of EVERY serious infantry regimen.

And I know several guys that train cops and FBI etc. on how to survive a street level firefight and intuitive shooting is considered vital.

As far as slingshots:

#1 I just prefer it. Slingshot shooting is literally my form of meditation. When I can still my mind I very rarely miss anything 1-3" at 33'. A tablespoon flipper or 1" target on leather being my faves.

(EDIT: I've been shooting going on two years now. But I only decided on the frame I would specialize with a couple of months ago. If I had practiced TTF aiming that whole time I would probably be cutting cards by now.

#2 My eyesight varies day to day. Being able to keep both eyes on the target makes this a non issue.

#3 It lets me shoot at night far more readily.

But as I have said, it's mainly personal preference.

I totally get that aiming, especially TTF aiming, is FAR FAR more reliable and practical for most shooters.

A lot of "aimers" seem preposterously hostile to the very idea of intuitive shooting. It's their right of course.
Bit it is entirely one way, and I can't help but think sour grapes are involved.


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

Yes but only for Close-quarters fighting and when your already under fire and at man size targets vers 1 inch or smaller target at 33 feet slingshot shooters typically shoot at .And they been debating this since the 1800s . Needless to say at distance aiming is always advantageous the farther and smaller you get from your target over point and shoot methods .


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

romanljc said:


> Yes but only for Close-quarters fighting and when your already under fire and at man size targets vers 1 inch or smaller target at 33 feet slingshot shooters typically shoot at .


Yes. It is mostly for close range. Where the overwhelming majority of city fighting takes place.

Again. I agree that aiming is going to produce much more accuraccy fpr the same amount of practice.

To me the skills are not in competition. I think they are different approaches with different practice requirements and different results.

To me intuitive shooting is the opposite of lazy or sloppy. It is the results of huge amounts of practice to the poimt where the slingshot is an extension of the shooter.


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

You have to consider the size of the target you want to hit chest area of a human is a lot larger then the skull of a rabbit for example .
Lawinforcment milatery are training to hit a bigger target .
Then what slingshot guys want to hit.
It's all a matter of precision vers a little more speed. 
Rabbits, cans don't shoot back . But if your 5 feet from someone with a gun or a knife and there about to shoot or stab first any hit is better then no hit at all if you no what I mean . If your Hunting 
it is the respobilty of every hunter to take the most ethical shot he can .
Spray and pray is not a responsible hunting practice . All shots at game should be well placed as precise as you can be. So for most people that means aiming taking your time .


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

romanljc said:


> You have to consider the size of the target you want to hit chest area of a human is a lot larger then the skull of a rabbit for example .
> Lawinforcment milatery are training to hit a bigger target .
> Then what slingshot guys want to hit.
> It's all a matter of precision vers a little more speed.
> ...


I don't have the same idea of intuitive sbooting that you do. Even my warm up shots all hit a can. Once I'm warmed up I hit a tablespoon flipper 90% of the time.

Granted that is at 33' But I'm gonna work my way out.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Double post


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## Alfred E.M. (Jul 5, 2014)

inconvenience said:


> Double post


*Dang, that's good shootin'.*


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Alfred E. Monkeynipples said:


> inconvenience said:
> 
> 
> > Double post
> ...


Thanks. I'll make a video soon. I won't be happy though until I hit a 1" pasty target 90% of the time.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Jeesh. Double post madness.


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

inconvenience said:


> romanljc said:
> 
> 
> > You have to consider the size of the target you want to hit chest area of a human is a lot larger then the skull of a rabbit for example .
> ...


 all depends on how good you are if your that good does not make any difference.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

romanljc said:


> inconvenience said:
> 
> 
> > romanljc said:
> ...


Yea. I think people underestimate how much practice is required for shooting via muscle memory.

I'd bet this is where the whole thing about intuitive shooters being inconsistent and requiring a lot of warm up comes in.

There are I'm sure people who claim to be intuitive shooters who don't realize it actually requires much MORE practice than aiming.

I try not to be that hard on myself but if my shots fall outside of a 3"-5" circle I go into a feedback loop and just have to stop and calm down.

Anyway. Long story short. Most people are better off aiming.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

I'm trying to teach myself to actually aim...

Think until you are able to shoot instinctively you don't actually understand what its like - no reference point. Its a bit like driving a car or bicycle. After a while you stop thinking about everything - it become more automatic and fluid.

I'd agree with Inconvenience - Most people are better off aiming. And I'd agree with Romanljc - better aiming when hunting for a clean kill.

But either way you'd need to be consistently accurate - and both approaches need practice.


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## romanljc (May 26, 2014)

Either way is good if you practice and get good at it . For most people aiming will get them on target with less practice and agravastion , I believe.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

Hmmm

I started this thread in April of last year. About a month after I started shooting slingshots. (After a 30+ year break anyway)

I thought it had been longer. I'm sure for those who have had to put up with my posts it has felt like decades.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

romanljc said:


> Either way is good if you practice and get good at it . For most people aiming will get them on target with less practice and agravastion , I believe.


Absolutely. I wouldn't reccomend intuitive shooting to anyone. If it suits the person they will gravitate towards it. But aiming is without a doubt more practical.


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

What about energy centers. Chakra ,chi.
The slingshot is a tool to tap the subconscious
Like a dowsing rod or pendulum. You can't just go out there and shoot junebugs off your corn stalks without honing your skills.
Ok fork witch way to the closer junebug.
How can the seasoned shooter put a projectiles through a super difficult to penertrate target with very light bands. How can a man drop a squirrel with every shot. I'm just saying.
Its complicated the human skill...


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

leadball said:


> What about energy centers. Chakra ,chi.
> The slingshot is a tool to tap the subconscious
> Like a dowsing rod or pendulum. You can't just go out there and shoot junebugs off your corn stalks without honing your skills.
> Ok fork witch way to the closer junebug.
> ...


I do get a genuine feeling simmilar to meditation when shooting. And when I experiance something akin to what the Japanese call "Satori" I do my best shooting.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

"Man with hole in pocket feel cocky all day"

- Confucius


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

I was at a air show many years ago. Little biplain was up there spinning flipping diving in such. Then two people on the ground held up a ribbon about a foot wide and fifty feet long up on poles around 10 feet off the ground across the run way. The guy in the plain comes along UPSIDE down maybe 8 feet off the ground at like 125 mph and cuts the ribbon with his prop. Get back up there makes a pass or two and lands right in front of me.
I'm thinking this guy has to be in super top physical / mental shape to pull that off. He gets out of the plain. Looked like Rodney Dangerfield and was smokiny a cigarette.


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## Zachary Fowler (Mar 7, 2016)

inconvenience

"#1 I just prefer it. Slingshot shooting is literally my form of meditation. When I can still my mind I very rarely miss anything 1-3" at 33'. A tablespoon flipper or 1" target on leather being my faves."

Ya definitely was one of my saving graces out in Patagonia it gave me the chance to unwind and step outside of the being alone and havering to survive.


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## leadball (Jan 14, 2014)

Yes
When I see a cat slip up on a bird feeder from my kitchen table. Jump up and snag a bird. I say.what the hay. That cat make it self invisabile to the bird. Be like slipping up on a deer with a bowie.you ever seen a cat look at its target.


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## inconvenience (Mar 21, 2016)

leadball said:


> Yes
> When I see a cat slip up on a bird feeder from my kitchen table. Jump up and snag a bird. I say.what the hay. That cat make it self invisabile to the bird. Be like slipping up on a deer with a bowie.you ever seen a cat look at its target.


I thought you were messing with us at first. Your posts are like some kind of oddball poetry. I like it.


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## trapperdes (Apr 5, 2015)

leadball said:


> Yes
> When I see a cat slip up on a bird feeder from my kitchen table. Jump up and snag a bird. I say.what the hay. That cat make it self invisabile to the bird. Be like slipping up on a deer with a bowie.you ever seen a cat look at its target.


Very true. Complete concentration on the target. I often find I shoot better instinctively when I am completely undistracted and am totally honed in on the target.


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