# Ethics



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

P.Konrad posted a recent article about illegal use of slingshots to damage property. Got me to thinking again on a topic I had mulled over some time ago...

In this day and age its generally uncommon to have access to the ability to hunt. However thanks to the internet many of the younger generation are being unleashed on the world with the ability to kill (or maim for that matter) at will but without the sort of ethical background that would usually be transferred, be it from older family member or tutor. Presumably the result of which is not understanding shot placement, ethical practices or even laws... The danger of which could create a blood-lust, kill for fun mentality.

So some points to ponder...

1) Valid reason to want to take an animal

2) Ensure appropriate equipment for the task

3) Ensure a humane (as instant as possible) kill - with regards to slingshots would be headshots

4) Know where your backstop is - be sure where the ammo may go even if deflected

5) Be certain no-one could be injured unwittingly by your actions

6) be aware and stick to local laws

feel free to add.


----------



## SLING-N-SHOT (Jun 5, 2018)

Great post Matt and spot on.

I would add the Golden rule of firearms, which applies to any weapon dealing with projectiles, which is to never point or shoot at anything you don't intend to kill, and that it's ALWAYS loaded, whether it is or isn't.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MOJAVE MO (Apr 11, 2018)

As a kid in the area I grew up (The Sierra Nevada Mountains) every 12year old entered into a Hunters Safety Course. Even the kids who parents didn't hunt would take the course. It wasn't required, it was just what we all did. Being a poacher was akin to being an outlaw and nobody wanted to be an outlaw. Up until the Forum I kept my hobby and favorite slinging pastime a secret. I've got enough gunpowder and hardware in my house to almost be embarassed about it. But because of the growing public stigma of owning a firearm I'd rather take a gamebird on an evening walk with my slingshot than fill a freezer with Buffalo Sausage.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Konrad (May 2, 2020)

I live on four acres of private property, We have up to two dozen rabbits in summer, with foxes also. It is too close to the neighbours to use a fire arm without the chance of a ricochet but perfect for the compound bow and Slingshot rifle. I read one of Mattwalt's posts in regards to the flymar posted a couple of years ago. My situation is perfect for it's use. The rabbits are torch shy with a green filter on the bow so I am to try NV with a scope on the flymar. I will be eating the Rabbit.

Salutations PK


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Sling-n-shot - good point.

Actually another one related - if its doesn't feel right - don't take the shot. Knowing when to back down from taking a shot is one of the most valuable lessons any hunter can make. Its a difficult judgement call.

Then there's Buck fever...

I remember the first thing I ever killed with a slingshot. people don't realise the effect it has - its not necessarily the high joy success you'd expect. But rather guilt. First time hunters should also be prepared that their emotions may run opposed to what they'd expect.


----------



## SJAaz (Apr 30, 2019)

Good post Matt. Some very good points are being made on this subject. The mental aspect is a good one. When I was a kid, I grew up the son of a butcher in a very small town. We had no money, but we never went hungry. We ate everything that was legal. sage hen, rabbits, grouse, ducks, fish, deer, antelope. We didn't kill for sport and we seldom missed. When I grew up and left home, I wasn't prepared for mindset of "regular" people. One group making a game out of watching something die, or another group that couldn't kill if they were starving! Or so they thought, people change when their kids grow hungry.

Anyway Matt I'm glad you brought this subject up.


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

I've been keen to get into hunting proper in Portugal. Though the process is a little long winded... You need to complete a few tests - 3 written and at least one practical (of the vein you'd want to approach).

My parents are of the guns=bad type. But always accepting of game when offered. Though I've been on quite a few hunts - and reguarly shot birds. Which sort of brings up another point. Expecting to bag something right away. Hunting is a test of patience. It can take days or even weeks of actively checking suitable spots for game before you may even see the quarry you are after. Let alone get a chance of a good shot. Watching people on youtube video's bagging loads of game in seemingly seconds is most probably just clever editing.

My dad used to talk about how as a kid he'd sneak out into the bush and bag a few doves, or pigeons with a slingshot - then cook them up for his youngest sister and himself. Definitely a different time... these days most kids think meat comes from the shop prepacked - no clue of what it actually is...

Also being aware of other people's sensitivities. I discovered some time ago one of my younger brothers was traumatised (still is apparently like 30 years later) by the bird carcasses I had stacked up somewhere. I had full permission to keep the birds out of the fruit trees from damaging the fruit for bottling. I can't remember when I had ever shot enough of them to validate 'a pile' - but my brother is still scarred to this day - Guess he must have been 6-8 at the time. Its worth considering other people may be way more sensitive to hunting practice - and could actually suffer needlessly by witnessing your actions.


----------



## Sean Khan (Mar 27, 2020)

mattwalt said:


> these days most kids think meat comes from the shop prepacked


Of course it doesn't come from the shop prepacked..... everyone knows THAT.

It comes from the BIG shop prepacked and sent to the corner store, where I get it from.



mattwalt said:


> P.Konrad posted a recent article about illegal use of slingshots to damage property.


When I was like 12, one of our teachers came to our classroom and asked us to pray for an older kid who was shot by the cops the night before. He was with a bunch of other kids late at night and they were having fun shooting out windows with slingshots and airguns. He died.

Ethics can only be taught with a plastic hanger or a rubber flipflop. Very effective.

Fly swatter.... not so effective.


----------



## msturm (Sep 18, 2019)

It is also important to make sure the animal you plan to kill is in an area where it can be safely recovered.


----------



## Tag (Jun 11, 2014)

Great post


----------



## SJAaz (Apr 30, 2019)

msturm said:


> It is also important to make sure the animal you plan to kill is in an area where it can be safely recovered.


Yes... good point. I can still remember guys saying "Man I came over that ridge and there was a big old bull/buck laying down in the draw. I would have been a week getting him out of there.


----------



## Quercusuber (Nov 10, 2011)

Great post!! :thumbsup:

I would have summed that up in a small phrase:

DON'T BE STUPID!!! :bonk:

Kids, if you want to enjoy the pleasures of slingshot shooting, don't forget the following rule: "My liberty ends where yours begin"

Cheers ...Q


----------



## Tag (Jun 11, 2014)

I’m all for reporting the news, and I wish I knew the correct answer to the problem. Regardless of what is in the news today, there will always be those who have to try to out do everyone else. For example, eating laundry soap pods The WOW factor will always be there for others to challenge to see who can out do everyone else. There is no one rule or law to fix everything, but I feel education is as close as it gets for me.I know of people who have participated in gun safety, archery and martial arts, and they have the utmost respect for their sport. I think the news media needs to have a segment for National and local news to inform people of information useful to their everyday lives. And then do a segment on dumb &*&* people Here is an example, that I like. “In today’s news we have reports of a Dumb #@&# that ate laundry pods and has officially changed their name to Bubbles”


----------



## Tag (Jun 11, 2014)

Awesome Q


----------



## Quercusuber (Nov 10, 2011)

Tag said:


> Awesome Q


Thanks!!

...I would mention a thing that has brought the "WOW FACTOR" in ridiculous amounts to our lives nowadays ...But, best to talk about slingshots anyway


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

The main issue is that slingshots are accessible. People have access to information - but many don't get basic instruction on what's is the correct way to handle situations. Along with a load of awesome video's to help fuel their new found passions they may go about it in a way thats not ideal.

Think many people who grew up in more rural areas or older fashioned countries which rely more on the earth for their resources than shops, don't understand just how far removed say city folks are from things. In the UK for instance - its been generations since people had to clean anything to eat it, even salad... So to expect someone like this to understand fully how to approach having to kill something is essentially ludicrous. Yet we get to watch people like Game Keeper John running around the countryside shooting squirrels and pheasants. And expect that its just a matter of getting a slingshot and walking out into the nearest field, expecting the trill of the chase, without any experience...

Maybe we should be putting pressure on the you tubers who are posting to start doing videos on proper practice and expectations... Rather than showing a 'wow factor'...

Think its more naivety that blatant stupidity.


----------



## Grandpa Pete (May 2, 2013)

The first living thing I shot and killed was a woodpecker. I shot it with my Red Rider BB gun...just for "the fun of it". That was about 75 years ago and I still remember the experience, it was not as much fun as I thought it would be. Matt's advise to first time hunters applies here. As I grew up I did a lot of hunting, everything from rabbits to bears using slingshot, blowgun, bow, shotgun and rifle. Now, in the later years of my life I have lost interest in killing anything. Forty years ago I lost interest in hunting for trophies, twenty years ago I lost interest in hunting for food. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against hunting. My son in law hunts elk every fall and I am happy that he enjoys the hunting experience and we enjoy the meat. These days I am happy to shoot at paper targets, pop cans and the like. I would take no pleasure in killing another woodpecker.

GP


----------



## msturm (Sep 18, 2019)

Oh man GP that brought back memories! My first kill was with a BB gun too. It was a robin and I shot if off of a rock and it fell into a creek. I was probably 7 or so. I felt so bad that I ran down stream, tears pouring down my face and swam out to get it. I came back to the cabin crying with guilt. My dad gave me a long lecture about killing things, the why's, how's, and when's. Then he made me clean it and eat it. That was a valuable lesson.


----------



## urbanshooter (Aug 23, 2017)

mattwalt said:


> Sling-n-shot - good point.
> 
> Actually another one related - if its doesn't feel right - don't take the shot. Knowing when to back down from taking a shot is one of the most valuable lessons any hunter can make. Its a difficult judgement call.
> 
> ...


It's never easy to take a life. Even an animal's. It's human empathy to "feel"... and if we don't "feel", there could something miswired and you could be on the spectrum of anywhere between autism to narcissism to sociopath to psychopath... all are empathy challenged conditions (maybe less for autism but definitely for the rest). However, killing often numbs and some hunters have their empathy switched off...

It should never be easy... so we only do it when we have good reason to!


----------



## Konrad (May 2, 2020)

Do you people still eat meat? Do you keep a dog or cat? If you do you need to watch what happens in a abattoir. Then watch a animal shot. I prefer hunting to the trauma of a slaughrerhouse. As long as I eat meat I will prefer to hunt it than have some one do the deed for me.


----------



## Sean Khan (Mar 27, 2020)

Killing something is easy peezy bumble beezy.

Skinning, cleaning and cooking is hard.

In school biology class, they forced me to cut up a cockroach, a fish and something else which I can't recall. I am not doing that again.


----------



## Quercusuber (Nov 10, 2011)

avinor said:


> Killing something is easy peezy bumble beezy.
> 
> Skinning, cleaning and cooking is hard.
> 
> In school biology class, they forced me to cut up a cockroach, a fish and something else which I can't recall. I am not doing that again.


OUCH!! uke:


----------



## Ibojoe (Mar 13, 2016)

Quercusuber said:


> Great post!! :thumbsup:
> I would have summed that up in a small phrase:
> DON'T BE STUPID!!! :bonk:
> Kids, if you want to enjoy the pleasures of slingshot shooting, don't forget the following rule: "My liberty ends where yours begin"
> Cheers ...Q


You got it in a nut shell "Q"!!!


----------



## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

This is an interesting topic for a number of reasons.

Culturally, I find it fascinating that we eat meat but rale at the notion of killing animals. The only real reason for this, of course, is that we are separated from reality. Compare the musculature and the skeletal morphology of a gorilla and a human and it's pretty obvious the adaptation to soft, cooked high calorie food began so long ago that we are who we are because of fire and the ability to extract much larger amounts of calories from our food to fuel a calorie hungry brain. We love the taste of cooked meat for a reason.

The cultural admonitions and resultant constraints that have been constructed around hunting and killing are rooted in much more complex cultural issues than the notion of guilt at having to kill something to eat. (I can still remember the moment as a child, while at a grocery store with my mom, that I made the connection between meat and a cow.) I got over it.

I think guilt for killing animals to eat has as much to do with the "territorial imperative" - that is idea of protecting 'what is mine' from others - than anything. The notion of private property and its many ramifications to those who both own and don't own it alludes to the need to build in social and cultural restraints. Think of the term "poaching" and what it construes.

Lessening resources increase the strength of the bias against hunting for oneself. In some circles it has taken on the strength of becoming almost taboo.

Also consider wealth and being able to hire someone to do one's killing (or hunting) for you [interestingly this has become our own cultural norm] and how separation from the process contributes to the negative ethos surrounding killing animals for food.

I've just barely scratched the surface. Where does the guilt we feel from killing something to eat come from? These things run deep within our psyche and our culture.

People who live close to the land don't generally have the same hangups as those who don't.


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Winnie -- interesting points. Though many ancient culturally based tribes - thank or bless animals which have been taken. So think on some level the guilt we feel may be for more ingrained in our DNA than we realise.

I would say that people who live close to the land probably become desensitised by the continual requirement to take and clean animals.

I watched an interesting documentary a while back as to the understanding of food origen. The upshot broadly speaking is after the 2 great wars -(mores the second) many companies had developed many technologies to preserve foods. Canning, pre-made dinners etc. And when the war ended they realised that their industries were on the verge of collapsing. So entered on a large marketing campaign which main focus was along the lines of if you have to struggle to make it then you're not on par with the Jones'. After70+ years that message is still essentially being hammered home. Though in recent years the UK did have a massive educational drive to help teach modern society about fresh food, its importance and origins...


----------



## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

matwalt,

I think you make some good points.

I think the admonition to strive for a clean kill could be rooted in the DNA too. - A lion seems pretty disinterested in the prey as it begins eating it even while the prey is still alive. A lion seems more interested in eating as much and as quickly as possible before other animals intervene - without any great concern for it's fellows. In this case beginning right away makes sense. We however, as you said, may even go so far as to set up assorted rights and rituals before we consume ( or maybe even more importantly - distribute) game. Might makes right in the animal kingdom and little concern seems to be given to the prey nor to the equitable distribution of resources.

For me the question becomes - Why is it in the DNA? What's the payoff? What advantages are given to society (small hunter-gatherer or larger groups) that differ from a pack of lions, for instance? Why do we feel guilty and how does society benefit? 
'Social Order' seems as likely as anything - which kind of takes me back to the territorial imperative.


----------



## Tag (Jun 11, 2014)

There is a hog butchering facility near where I live, and the stories that come out of there are, let’s say interesting to say the least. The reality of meat processing can be a little overwhelming to some. One person I know drains the fluids from the hogs. Now tell that to a person that only sees the meat in a nice package. The one I will always remember is the person that thought milk came from a milk cow, not a cow for meat. Those are called beef cattle. When it was explained to this person that dairy cattle had to be pregnant to give milk, they still didn’t believe it. One the calf is born, it is taken away instantly from its mother. The reality of the food chain can be brutal.


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

I'm no anthropologist - so I can't answer with any authority.

Think we as people often see ourselves as custodians or masters of our natural environment. Its possible hunter gatherers are more aware of how fragile life is and how their existence in more intertwined with the life they interact with.

I do find it interesting the difference hunting in groups over as a sole hunter. Its a whole different experience.


----------



## SJAaz (Apr 30, 2019)

Good stuff Matt. Maybe you should pin this thread.


----------



## Hulla Baloo (Nov 25, 2017)

It's a conspiracy implemented by soy bean cultivators, gender neutralists, and lingerie manufacturers . Just follow the money. Consuming tofu leads to man breasts. Man breasts need support, hence the prophet Kramer's "bro" or "manzier." Transparent as heck it is...

There should be a mandatory class in every elementary school titled "Dominion," with an emphasis on stewardship, gutting of large game, and how to operate a manual grinder. Millennials are squeamish by design gentlemen...


----------



## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

"Manual grinder" does call forth a certain connection to the food chain. 
I can understand Hulla Baloo as a moniker now


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Hulla Baloo said:


> It's a conspiracy implemented by soy bean cultivators, gender neutralists, and lingerie manufacturers . Just follow the money. Consuming tofu leads to man breasts. Man breasts need support, hence the prophet Kramer's "bro" or "manzier." Transparent as heck it is...
> 
> There should be a mandatory class in every elementary school titled "Dominion," with an emphasis on stewardship, gutting of large game, and how to operate a manual grinder. Millennials are squeamish by design gentlemen...


I always thought it makes sense to have every person at least once. Hunt, kill and clean just one animal just as experience. And I'd always welcome vegetarians and vegans to participate - its a lot easier to judge others when you have experienced it yourself.


----------



## Winnie (Nov 10, 2010)

A Paradigm Changer for me:

Several years ago I read an article in the National Geographic or Science about a Russian fox farmer that raised foxes for the fur. The farmer would walk down the isle and if a fox snarled etc. at him he would harvest it and turn it into a pelt. If a fox acted less aggressive he would allow it to mate. With time he got a bunch of tame foxes by selecting for tameness.

What is interesting though is that along with tameness came smaller teeth, less robust skeletons and floppy ears. The foxes had become tamed and there was therefore no need for the traits that would keep it competitive in the "real world".

Next, the analogy was made that we humans used to have larger teeth and more robust skeletons and that perhaps we have "tamed ourselves". Imagine a small hunter/gatherer group that has a member that is larger, and more aggressive and dangerous to the larger group as a whole - someone who was throwing their weight around. It has been speculated that such a person would be killed by another or, more likely, by several other members of the group and that, with time, our species would lose those wild traits - all the way down to the genome.

Consider (I'm not certain I have the numbers right) putting 100 chimpanzees put into a Boing 747 and walking away - after an hour you'd be lucky to have just a few left alive - yet, you can put 400 people on a 747 and after 10 hours people are fine. That ability to live close together is necessary for humans to survive.

We have tamed ourselves.

Now go back to the notion of feeling guilty when we kill whatever is our prey. Since we are eating it to survive we should feel no remorse or guilt - though it is common to feel something. Some feel so guilty that they cannot hunt at all and are even offended by the notion that anyone would harm anything.

Where does that guilt come from and how does it play itself out in society to its' betterment? That's the question I have.

We've all become floppy eared.


----------



## urbanshooter (Aug 23, 2017)

Winnie said:


> A Paradigm Changer for me:
> 
> Several years ago I read an article in the National Geographic or Science about a Russian fox farmer that raised foxes for the fur. The farmer would walk down the isle and if a fox snarled etc. at him he would harvest it and turn it into a pelt. If a fox acted less aggressive he would allow it to mate. With time he got a bunch of tame foxes by selecting for tameness.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't say it's "guilt". Guilt implies having done something wrong and I don't think there is anything wrong with killing for food. However, I would still feel a little sadness for the creature whose life I take. It's simply empathy - not guilt. For me anyway... YMMV 

I have slaughtered chickens. I hate having to cut their necks, watching them flap around then die and cleaning them after (feathers are a pain)... but I still love eating it and have no qualms about it.

And butchering is something I enjoy, be it meat or fish, there is something about prepping meat I just enjoy. Or maybe I just like using sharp knives?

I wouldn't feel any guilt or remorse if I have to take out a pest or a dangerous creature either... and I am not gonna eat them


----------



## MOJAVE MO (Apr 11, 2018)

I was raised at a time and in a place where we kept our opinions and our beliefs to ourselves. So in the world we live in now I find it both numerous and amusing that anyone has the need to comment negatively or at all about the choices I make or how I make them. This is not an American waiving a Freedom Flag. I just a person that follows a very short list of guidelines when I am in public and around other humans.
1. Dress respectively.
2. Don't Spit or Cuss.
3. Give-way in a tight space.
4. Hold a Door regardless of Gender.
5. Say Please and Thank you.
Same rules with close friends and relatives. Even more so with immediate family. Don't Tread On Me and we are Golden. I know my place with the Law as well as my Mother-in-Law. I was not raised under the fear of God, but under the fear of Mom and Dad, Grandpa, Grandma, Uncles and Aunts and the Neighbors too! The Rules used to be simply Black and White. Now that everything is Gray I am not sure I see anything as clearly anymore.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Tag (Jun 11, 2014)

That’s well said Mo


----------



## hoggy (Apr 17, 2017)

my dad's family had their meat on the hoof or foot. meaning pigs or chickens. my point is that it hasn't been that long ago that food was killed and prepared daily.


----------



## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

hoggy said:


> my dad's family had their meat on the hoof or foot. meaning pigs or chickens. my point is that it hasn't been that long ago that food was killed and prepared daily.


I grew up similarly. But in some countries this is much less likely to have happened since the 1930's (if not earlier). There are many places where even the idea of hunting is so foreign - or heaven forbid the pre-packed chicken comes with giblets... Which is kind of the point of the whole post. In many parts of the world its been maybe as much as 3 generations, if not more, since people had to even worry about wether the meat they bought even needed cleaning. But their children are now running around the countryside shooting, and sometimes eating, wild animals.


----------



## ForkLess (Aug 15, 2018)

Unless you have to, then killing cans is the most ethic way.


----------



## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

Great points my friend.

Sent from my LM-X210APM using Tapatalk


----------

