# Sticky  Comprehensive Tube (Tubular Band) Guide for Beginners



## Yinn

Edited 17/8/22

Quick intro, I consider myself an intermediate slingshooter and have been into the sport for about a year now. I started my journey with tubes, but now also shoot flat bands, and love both equally. I have seen a lot of beginner tips for flat band and shooting in general, but there's a scarcity of information on tubes for beginners, and what's out there is very scattered. Being OCD I have done a lot of reading as well as personal testing, and would like to share my experience for those just starting out on their tube shooting journey. I figured the best way to present this is in Q&A format, from general to specific questions. I am assuming reader knows the basics of slingshots, and this guide is specific for tubes. To start off, please watch this video to see the ultimate form of tube shooting and get inspired: frameless, long pull, rapid shooting with amazing accuracy. Fast shooting with frameless tube

**Disclaimer, I live in a tropical climate, and with the warm weather my bands usually shoot at optimal performance; I have no experience shooting in cold weather. I shoot mostly short pull (cheek anchor), but am dabbling in butterfly. I shoot primarily 8mm (5/16") steel, but also occasionally shoot 9.5mm (3/8") steel and 11mm (7/16") steel. If I haven't personally verified a statement, I will mention so.

1. Types of tubes & nomenclature

There are 2 general types of tubes commercially available, hollow (Dankung style) tubes as well as solid tubes
Hollow tubes are listed as internal diameter / external diameter, in a tenth of millimeter. For e.g. 1842 tubes are 1.8mm internal diameter and 4.2mm external diameter
Solid tubes (I have seen Americans calling them "dub-dub") are usually listed in mm

Hollow tubes are by far much more common and commercially available. I have seen sources stating that hollow tubes have superior performance (faster speed for lighter pull), but I cannot confirm it as I have no experience with solid tubes.

2. Tube vs flat bands

Ok, this is a very controversial topic, with tons of discussions in multiple forums, and a lot of bias involved. I will try and be as unbiased as possible as I love both types, and I will list what I think is relevant in my experience, in terms of pros for each type (and hence relative con of the other)
Pros of tubes
Most significantly, better longevity - obviously there are many other factors that contribute to longevity, such as band thickness, tapering, elongation factor, brand, exposure etc. However in general, everyone agrees that tubes do last longer than flat bands, but specific mileage varies
More durable - this is a huge one for me, and I don't see people talking about it often. Aside from longevity of a well stored band set, tubes are also much more durable and can withstand nicks and scrapes much better than flats. A tiny nick in a brand new flat band and it will break in a dozen shots. I noticed this most significantly when I made the transition from tubes to flats and stored them the same way, my flats were breaking very very quickly. Now, I just stick my framed tubes in my shooting bag, but protect my framed flats in a leather pouch before storing it away. For my EDC, I wear frameless tubes on my wrist everyday and they can withstand my daily activities no problem, not so for flats.
Ease of making - tubes are very easy to make (just tie on pouch), compared to flats where you have to cut it to your specification. However, more advanced tube sets (pseudotapered, bead stuck (aka ball locked), protective casings etc) can be just as complicated, and takes just as much time to make
Ease of attachment - this only applies to looped and bead stuck (aka ball locked), which takes seconds to change on frames with built in slots. Tie on tubes takes just as much effort, and conversely now many flat band frames offer quick clips that make banding much faster and easier
Rapid shooting - tubes allow for rapid reloading, especially when shot in single tube OTT format
Cost - I previously included cost in the "not significant" section, but after giving it some more thought, if budget was an issue or if you live in a place where it's difficult to source latex, you may want to stick with single tubes, cut with a more relaxed elongation (5x) to get the best mileage per roll. Aside from the above setting, in general I have not found much difference in costs.

Pros of flat bands
Most significantly, better performance - no one denies that flat bands are almost always faster for a given draw weight / pull. Even untapered flats are faster than standard tubes, and pseudotapered tubes are still slower than tapered flats, despite near equal longevity. This is more apparent the thicker the bands.
More frame options - this is a big one. There are tons of commercial options for flat band frames, but much less for tubes. And this disparity is getting bigger as flats continue to gain popularity. Its harder to fine a good tube frame that suits your shooting style (but still definitely possible). And its always possible to rig a flat frame to accommodate tubes.
More consistent performance (between batches) - latex, being a natural product will always have some inherent inconsistencies, despite good QC on modern latex from big brands. However, I have noticed more variations and inconsistencies between batches of tubes than flats, even from the same manufacturer. If you're very OCD about consistent latex performance, stick with flats.
Ease of tuning - ease of making is inversely related to ease of tuning. Because you have to cut the bands yourself, you gain more flexibility in tuning. For e.g., I stick with Snipersling yellow 0.6mm for my flats, and cut it narrower for 8mm steel and wider for my larger ammo. But for my tubes, I need to buy separate sizes for each ammo size, and also for different shooting styles (single, double etc).


3. Addressing advantages (of both types) others have mentioned that I feel are insignificant

Tubes are quieter - yes, tubes are quieter when shooting, but I find most of the sound coming from impact anyway, so don't find this a significant advantage
Safety - some people have quoted tapered flats being safer as it usually frays at the pouch attachment, and if it snaps the bands usually fly forward and avoid face slaps. Conversely, some people say tubes are safer as when it starts frays, it usually frays slowly and can hang on much longer before it snaps, giving more time to notice it. Either way, check your bands often, and I have never had issues with either.
Accuracy - ok this is a big one. I have seen many people complain that tubes are less accurate, and others saying they're the same. It is my firm belief that tubes ARE AS ACCURATE as flats. The problem isn't the type of the latex, but the system / attachment used. Single tubes with fixed attachments are just as easy to gain consistency (and hence accuracy) as flats. However the most popular tube system is looped double tubes, which is more difficult (but still possible) to be consistent and gain accuracy.

4. Why are tubes less popular than flat bands

If you've read the above pros and cons, you can get a sense of why flat bands are more popular (or apparent popularity). Most hardcore slingshooters don't mind the the poorer longevity and more frequent & time consuming band making of flats, in exchange for better performance. They just "feel" better to shoot.
However, I'm sure there are some reporting bias as well, as these hardcore users are also the ones making YouTube videos and posting on forums. More casual shooters who may prefer tubes because they couldn't be bothered with frequent and complex band making, are also less likely to go to social media about it.

5. Types of tube systems

Single tubes
Most akin to flat band shooting
OTT style allows for quick reloading and rapid shooting
Although tube OTT is good for rapid shooting (and I shoot OTT for my flat bands), I prefer TTF attachment for single tubes. Tube TTF has the benefit of having a narrower band to aim down compared to the wide aiming point of flat band TTF. And tube OTT's aiming point is slightly off laterally from the fork tip as the tubes are thicker than flats in OTT format, especially with addition of a larger tube casing or thick tabs

Double tubes
Most common system of tube shooting
Can be either freely moving (looped) or fixed (bead stuck / ball locked / clamped), both shoot like TTF (a lot of people mistakenly call typical looped tubes in looped frames as OTT, as one of the limbs go "over the top", however as the second limb goes between the forks, in reality it performs like TTF)
Biggest benefit (and the reason why they're so popular) is the ease of making the bands as well as ease of swapping and attaching to frame
Double tubes have slightly better performance than single tubes (slightly better speed for similar draw weight), but slightly worse longevity (2 thinner tubes break faster than 1 thicker tube). And because of the doubling of tube usage and shorter longevity, they tend to cost more. 
Biggest draw back, now that there are 2 tubes per fork, is that the horizontal alignment of the tubes and frame becomes very important (not a problem with flats and single tubes). I tend to shoot flat bands and single tubes with a straight wrist, with my frame pushed slightly forward horizontally. However if you do the same with "fixed" double tubes, it will throw off the windage of the shot as both limbs are not stretched equally. So it becomes important to maintain a perfectly perpendicular frame to the target (in addition to being perpendicular to the floor).
"Looped" double tubes is able to adjust for straight wrist shooting because it's freely moving, however now has the problem of "binding" to the frame when being pulled. If the orientation of the frame when the binding occurs is not the same as the final position when aiming, the bands are not centered and are not stretched equally, it will again throw off the windage of the shot. So for looped tubes, it becomes important to pull the frame in the same orientation as it's being shot. Thinner and smoother frame loops does reduce this effect, as well as maxing out band elongation
Because of the above reasons, many new tube shooters feel that tubes are less accurate then flats. However in actuality its not the tubes, but the systems and attachments that introduces additional factors that needs to be controlled, factors that some people are not aware of or used to controlling

Pseudotapered tubes
There are many ways to pseudotaper tubes, but the 3 main types are semi-looped, Y-cocktail and tube-in-tube cocktail
Benefit of pseudotapering is optimal performance (fastest speed for lightest pull), although I have never achieved the same performance as tapered flat bands
Comes at a cost of reduced longevity
Typical recommended pseudotapering is for 1/3 of the active length. That usually increases the draw weight by roughly 20% of equivalent single tubes
Semi-looped pseudotapering is probably the most well known and common, meant for any frames that takes loops. Has the same issue of binding as looped double tubes. I use the 3rd method shown by Nate Masters for best longevity. 




Y-cocktail is for bead stuck or ball locked frames, as shown by GZK. 



 Has same issue of requiring perfectly perpendicular frame to prevent windage errors. Additional benefit of being cost effective, as it is made from 2 separate pieces of tubes, and usually only the distal / pouch end needs to be replaced
Tube-in-tube cocktail is the most difficult to make, needing special tools. It's also the most flexible, and can be used for any of the systems. I have no personal experience but have read that it has the best longevity. Here's an example by GZK. 






6. Attachment systems

Production frames
Loop frames
Most widely available commercial tube frames. Has forks with large holes and insertion slots for looped tubes.
Common examples are the famous SPS, Simpleshot Torque, Pocket Predator Taurus, Dankung style traditional wire loop frames etc
Very popular as it allows for rapid attaching and swapping band sets
Has problem with binding (see point 5)
Another unique attachment is a single looped tube on a loop frame with additional midline hook / loop for quick attachment, usually shot OTT. Easiest attachment system for single tubes. Good example is GZK's Xiaofork. 





Ball in tube / bead stuck / ball locked
Different names for the same system, where a small steel ball (usually 4.5mm) is stuck into frame end of tubes and locks tube in place to frame
Good examples are GZK Victory 2, Victory 4, Sniper Eagle
I was initially weary of the balls slipping out, but it's actually a very secure system
Takes a bit more effort making the bands and inserting the balls. I'm able to do it with just my hemostat but there are dedicated insertion tools available
If double tubes are used, has problem of needing perpendicular frame to target (see point 5). Hence tend to be offered in hammer style grip.

Clamps
Any frame that offers external clamps or clips (flipclip for Simpleshot frames, clamps for Wasp frames, clips for Pocket Predator universal Ranger etc) can also attach looped or single tubes OTT or TTF by wrapping the loop around the screw, as shown by Nate Masters here 




Tubes comes around the fork and cause fraying at the fork junction, shortening band longevity

Plugs
Don't see this very often, but some companies offer tube plugs for looped tubes. Have only really seen it from Wasp
Benefit is the 2 limbs are side-by-side, less issue with unequal stretch
There are 2 options, plug the tubes on target side and have bands come out straight towards you (performs like TTF)
plug on shooter side and have bands come around the forks, either OTT or TTF and shoots like flat bands
Plugging on shooter side does bring tubes around the fork and cause fraying at the fork junction, shortening band longevity


DIY
The beauty of tubes is that aside from pre-made attachments, there are so many other innovative ways to attach them to a fork
Frameless!
I think this is my favorite way of shooting tubes, and the main reason why I will never give up on tubes. It is just so cool and also the ultimate EDC. I have seen many frames being marketed as "EDC", but let's be honest, I would never carry a frame, however pocketable to a dinner or to my workplace. But I just went for an international conference and travelled overseas with my frameless tubes.
Here is an example of how to make and shoot frameless by Hudson. How to Make and Shoot Frameless Slingshot
Watch this video to be inspired by the ultimate form of tube shooting: frameless, long pull, rapid shooting with amazing accuracy Fast shooting with frameless tube

Tie or clipped onto any standard flat band frame
Mostly for single tubes
As tubes slip easier than flats, make extra loops with longer piece of tie on material and tying the tubes on really tight
Always check for slippage before pulling to your face to avoid face slaps
Use protective tube casing as tubes will fray at fork junction. The thicker tube will also help prevent slippage. Here's an example by GZK. The making of tube casing
Probably my favorite way to shoot single tubes, since I get to use flat band frames that I like
For universal frames that has both loop slots and flat band groves such as Simpleshot Torque and SPS, there's also this unique TTF option shown by Nate Masters (my favourite option) Tutorial-Torque Slingshot for TTF Tubular Bands

Tabs
A very popular DIY attachment is using tabs, where tubes are attached onto tabs before tying onto flat band frames
Commonly used tabs are strips of leather or microfiber (spare pouches are a popular option) or paracord.
Many options available. Tabs can either be tied on single (with a hole) or looped. Tubes can either be looped through a tab, or tied on tight to become a single tube.
Benefit over simple tie on is no need for protective casing as it doesn't rub against fork junction
Here are some examples. gyspy catapult tabs the easy way! ROUGH AND READY NATURAL HUNTING SLINGSHOT TUBES & TABS Metro Made | Making a Tap & Tab Descender Slingshot

Pins
I have seen people attaching loop tubes through forks with holes and pinning it with a peg (wooden, metal etc). Functions just like the Wasp plug attachment
Should work on any frame that has a small hole at the forks, for e.g. Simpleshot Scout, Pocket Predator Universal Ranger, Wasp Uniphoxx
Just like the plug attachment, there is option to pin on target side and have bands come out straight towards you, or pin on shooter side and have bands come around the forks, either OTT or TTF
Pinning it to shooter side bring bands around fork and can cause fraying
Nate Masters from Simpleshot also showed an innovative way to pin the looped tubes to the frame itself. More Ways to Install Bands on the Scout slingshot - Looped Tubes

Slots
Don't see this often, and usually custom made, where people cut slots into their frames to attach the tubes (I have never done this). I'm not aware of any commercial frames that offer this system, but seems really cool.
Here's an example by Volp The Flip Flop slingshot!

I'm sure there are other inventive ways to attach tubes to frames. If there's something I missed, please do share!


7. Best elongation factor

It's been my experience that its best to max out / near max out tube bands for better accuracy, compared to flat bands
My go to would be to add 1cm to the active length with max elongation factor. Good example how to measure max elongation factor shown here by Mark. QUICK TIP: BAND ELONGATION
For example, my current GZK 2040 has max elongation factor of 6x. My draw length is 75cm. So the max active length is 75 / 6 = 13cm. Add 1cm to that would make my active length 14cm.

8. Tube performance data and charts

I have seen various tube performance data and charts reported for different size tubes and ammo, and noticed that they're very varied and contradictory. I have also tried to experiment on my own and bought many different tube sizes from various big brands (GZK, Dankung, Simpleshot, Precise).
Here is my conclusion, unfortunately there are large variations and inconsistencies between various brands, sizes and even batches (of the same size/manufacturer). I have had tubes where the same size / brand had almost 30% difference in draw weight between batches. I even had, on 2 separate occasions with 2 different brands where a "thicker" band ended up having a lighter pull and slower speeds than a "thinner" band of the same brand.
Hence, I see no point in reporting data, making charts and expecting reproducible numbers. In my opinion its more important to understand the average performance of a given tube size, and know that you may get a tube that is slightly lighter or heavier then expected, and that you're stuck with 10 meters of that product.
If you're not okay with the above statement, tubes is not for you.

9. Recommended tube size

Keeping in mind point no. 8, here is what tube sizes I'd recommend
Please take note that I shoot short pull (cheek anchor), and I have only tried the standard sizes offered by most brands (1632, 2040, 1842, 1745, 2050, 3060). I have not tried the more unique sizes some brands offer (1636, 3050, 2055 etc).
If trying out a new ammo size / tube brand for the first time, I will always recommend starting out with the "standard" tube size first, especially with larger ammo / tubes, as if you get a particularly "heavy" batch of tubes, you may not be able to draw / shoot it at all
8mm (5/16") steel
single / pseudotapered - 2040 for standard, 1842 for heavy
double - 1632 for standard, 2040 for heavy

9.5mm (3/8") steel
single / pseudotapered - 1842 for standard, 1745 for heavy
double - 2040 for standard, 1842 for heavy

11mm (7/16") steel
single / pseudotapered - 1745 for standard, 2050 for heavy
double - 1842 for standard, 1745 for heavy

For long pull / butterfly, downsize by 1 level of thickness (for example for 8mm steel, downsize single tube 2040 to 1632)

10. What tube size / frame / system do I shoot

This is very dynamic and my answer will most certainly change with time, but as of today here is my answer
Frameless single tube 2040 only Simpleshot black (because black looks good worn), 32cm total length (16cm active length in each limb). Comfortable length both for me to wear and shoot.
Single tube 2040 15cm (14cm active length + 1cm for tying onto frame) with 3cm 2050 protective casing tied TTF on my Simpleshot Torque.
Semi-looped pseudotaper 2040 14cm active length (5cm double, 9cm single) on my GZK Serpentine Fox (modified flat tips Dankung style frame).
For 3/4 butterfly shooting, single tube 1632 58cm total length (29cm in each limb = 28cm active length + 1cm for attachment) on GZK Xiaofork-S.
Y-cocktail pseudotaper 2040 15cm active length (5cm double + 1cm for attachment, 9cm single) on my GZK Sniper Eagle. My least shot frame as I don't like hammer grip, and don't like to be forced to keep my wrist bent to maintain a perpendicular frame.

Thanks for reading to the end guys, hope you found it helpful. If I missed anything, or any additional questions please do leave me a comment. I am still learning, and if relevant I will add it and give credit where due.


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## Flatband

Wow! First Welcome to the Forum. Really solid piece of writing and a very detailed summary of tubes and flats-their pluses and minuses. Good job Bud!


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## Slingshot28

Welcome and thanks for this information.


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## Yinn

Flatband said:


> Wow! First Welcome to the Forum. Really solid piece of writing and a very detailed summary of tubes and flats-their pluses and minuses. Good job Bud!


Thank you so much Flatband! Happy to contribute in this small way. Also secretly hoping some pros will comment and enlightened me further.


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## Blowhard79

Anywhere in the states a feller could order the tools for cocktail tubes?


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## Reed Lukens

Yinn said:


> Thank you so much Flatband! Happy to contribute in this small way. Also secretly hoping some pros will comment and enlightened me further.


🤠 🍻 🏜 🌵 Welcome from Arizona 🌵 🏜 🍻 🤠
Man that took me forever to read and now.... 
I'm going to go back and read it again! Excellent info and you are a great writer Yin 🤠🍻🤪
Thanks for the outstanding contribution!
Reed


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## Yinn

Blowhard79 said:


> Anywhere in the states a feller could order the tools for cocktail tubes?


Hi Blowhard, are you referring to the Y-cocktail pseudotaper tubes? I actually don't use any special tools. As shown in the video, all you need is a pen and ruler, tying tape (amber belt etc) and a tying jig. All things most shooter should already have in their kit.

However, if you're referring to the tube-in-tube cocktail, I have no idea since I have never made them. So far I have only seen the tool sold from Chinese dealers, like GZK's website.

I figured inserting the tutorial videos is good enough, but if you want me to show how I personally make pseudotapers let me know


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## skarrd

Wow!and Welcome from S.Texas.very well written and documented info


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## Yinn

Reed Lukens said:


> 🤠 🍻 🏜 🌵 Welcome from Arizona 🌵 🏜 🍻 🤠
> Man that took me forever to read and now....
> I'm going to go back and read it again! Excellent info and you are a great writer Yin 🤠🍻🤪
> Thanks for the outstanding contribution!
> Reed


Thanks Reed! Greetings from Malaysia!

Heard there's a heat wave going on right now at your neck of the woods. Stay cool and hydrated, especially when you're outdoors slingshooting!

If there's anything you feel should be added, do let me know!


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## hoggy

great info, welcome & enjoy.


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## Yinn

skarrd said:


> Wow!and Welcome from S.Texas.very well written and documented info


Thanks for the kind welcome skarrd and hoggy!


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## SLING-N-SHOT

Welcome from Georgia and fantastic write up on tubes ! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Darrell Allen

** SlingLyfe Band Up **


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## Tag

Welcome Thank you for your very informative post


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## Squid

Excellent info! I've just started playing with tubes and really enjoying them, this post will save me a lot of time and effort, thank you 😊


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## Innlou

I’m a single tube shooter and love the GZK video of tube inside tube. Thanks a lot for posting!


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## Innlou

Okay I just ordered the tube in tube maker, will let you know how they work after I receive it.


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## Yinn

SLING-N-SHOT said:


> Welcome from Georgia and fantastic write up on tubes !
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> Darrell Allen
> 
> ** SlingLyfe Band Up **


Thanks Darrell, used to live in Atlanta. Miss it lots!


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## Yinn

Tag said:


> Welcome Thank you for your very informative post


Thanks and welcome Tag, Squid, Innlou! Let me know if you have anything to add!


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## Yinn

Innlou said:


> Okay I just ordered the tube in tube maker, will let you know how they work after I receive it.


Oh that would be great, thanks Innlou! Would be good to have your personal input, especially if you can compare it to the other types of pseudotapering.


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## Yinn

Just did a big update and editing of the main post. Please take a look again guys!

Changelog: 15/7/2022

Added cost as a benefit for tubes (changed from non-significant)
Added a very large section on "Attachments". Very happy with the addition of this section, please take a look!
Many formatting and grammatical correction


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## skarrd

Cool


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## Pedroito

I do y-cockail style without hving bead balls system but using clips

but recently, with very long loops, the accuracy is totally screwed, i'm not sure of myself anymore, I think the loop must not be too long (here it was like 40-50%)


"but let's be honest, I would never carry a frame, however pocketable to a dinner or to my workplace."
Why not? if pretty small and you have EDC clothes with tons of pockets


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## fogcreature

What an awesome post. I also prefer tubes. Be sure to try the pocket predator offerings for tubes. Highly highly recommended. Just got a recurve ranger tube shooter and it’s so comfortable, the mini Taurus tube shooter is also really comfortable. Love my gzk and wu Jim frames along with my dankung frames but my hands are too large for extended shooting sessions with those. Also have you tried 1636? I’m thinking of trying that out from precise along with trying out their 2040.


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## SLING-N-SHOT

Yinn said:


> Thanks Darrell, used to live in Atlanta. Miss it lots!


Ooooh, haven’t been down to or near Atlanta in years, haven’t missed it at all, lol.  

In fact, Loganville’s getting a little too crowded for my liking now too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Darrell Allen

** SlingLyfe Band Up **


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## Yinn

Pedroito said:


> I do y-cockail style without hving bead balls system but using clips
> 
> but recently, with very long loops, the accuracy is totally screwed, i'm not sure of myself anymore, I think the loop must not be too long (here it was like 40-50%)
> 
> 
> "but let's be honest, I would never carry a frame, however pocketable to a dinner or to my workplace."
> Why not? if pretty small and you have EDC clothes with tons of pockets


Yeah totally agree Pedroito, I have that same experience as well. The longer the doubled section, the worse my accuracy fares. My ongoing theory (unproven) is that the longer the doubled section, the greater the effect of the uneven stretching of both limbs, throwing off the windage of our shots.

As to my comments on EDC frames, I live in an urban area and am a cardiologist. I have never found an opportunity to shoot in my daily life or workplace except in my backyard, and I don't think a slingshot frame, however small, would fit well into my scrubs.


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## Yinn

fogcreature said:


> What an awesome post. I also prefer tubes. Be sure to try the pocket predator offerings for tubes. Highly highly recommended. Just got a recurve ranger tube shooter and it’s so comfortable, the mini Taurus tube shooter is also really comfortable. Love my gzk and wu Jim frames along with my dankung frames but my hands are too large for extended shooting sessions with those. Also have you tried 1636? I’m thinking of trying that out from precise along with trying out their 2040.


Hi fogcreature thanks for the encouragement. Yeah I actually own a Ranger Recurve OTT, and really love it, one of my favorite flat band frames. I have looked into Bill Hay's offerings for tubes, unfortunately both the Ranger recurve and Taurus tube shooters have too narrow of a fork width for me. However, if its to your specification, I say you'll never go wrong with Pocket Predator's offerings, although they're slightly more costly than others.

So far I have only stuck with common sizes and have never tried 1636, but might try it someday. I've always felt that there's too much of a gap between 1632 and 2040, and 1636 maybe the sweet spot that fits nicely in between. I do have and am currently using Precise 2040, and they're great. Please note that in my experience they're usually on the heavier end compared to other brands, but again, it may just be my luck.


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## Yinn

I have made some minor edits to the main post. However if you guys have read through it before, the biggest addition is my favorite tube shooting video of all times, this guy that does frameless, long pull, rapid shooting with great accuracy; a huge source of inspiration. I calculated 22 shots in a 1 minute time frame, and he hit the target 20 times, which is an accuracy of 91%. Amazing. I'm not even confident I can achieve this level of skill if given a lifetime of practice.


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## fogcreature

Yinn said:


> Hi fogcreature thanks for the encouragement. Yeah I actually own a Ranger Recurve OTT, and really love it, one of my favorite flat band frames. I have looked into Bill Hay's offerings for tubes, unfortunately both the Ranger recurve and Taurus tube shooters have too narrow of a fork width for me. However, if its to your specification, I say you'll never go wrong with Pocket Predator's offerings, although they're slightly more costly than others.
> 
> So far I have only stuck with common sizes and have never tried 1636, but might try it someday. I've always felt that there's too much of a gap between 1632 and 2040, and 1636 maybe the sweet spot that fits nicely in between. I do have and am currently using Precise 2040, and they're great. Please note that in my experience they're usually on the heavier end compared to other brands, but again, it may just be my luck.


I wish he still offered kits on his site. I have a universal ranger and seal sniper kit from a couple years ago from pocket predator and there the most accurate frames I own. I’ll be trying the precise 1636 and 2040, thanks for all this info!!


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## Pedroito

for frameless tube shooting, (or even flat), i have a straight thumb and every shooter doing it like in the video above has a crooked thumb

i'm not genetically engineered for frameless shooting


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## Yinn

Pedroito said:


> for frameless tube shooting, (or even flat), i have a straight thumb and every shooter doing it like in the video above has a crooked thumb
> 
> i'm not genetically engineered for frameless shooting


Hi Pedroito, that's a very interesting problem that I have never considered. Here is something I have seen that may help: looping the lower limb over the thumb's knuckle instead. Here's a good video example


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## Pedroito

Yinn said:


> Hi Pedroito, that's a very interesting problem that I have never considered. Here is something I have seen that may help: looping the lower limb over the thumb's knuckle instead. Here's a good video example


lol i tried again and again (this is the third technique I try) and the tubes keep on slipping on my fingers, it makes me mad, i'm gonna stick to a real frame


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## Yinn

Pedroito said:


> lol i tried again and again (this is the third technique I try) and the tubes keep on slipping on my fingers, it makes me mad, i'm gonna stick to a real frame


I think it’s important to remember why we love this sport: because it’s fun. If frameless is frustrating or not working for you, and potentially killing the joy for the sport, I say forget it and stick to frames if that’s what you love.


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## skarrd

agreed,nothing wrong with frame shooting,and ofen times the fork will be Much better looking than just a plain old hand


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## Whytey

Yinn said:


> I think it’s important to remember why we love this sport: because it’s fun. If frameless is frustrating or not working for you, and potentially killing the joy for the sport, I say forget it and stick to frames if that’s what you love.


@Pedroito
Man, I would just shelve the tube frameless idea for a while(BTW I'm not a fan), get happy and maybe come back to it some time down the track with a clear mind. It could be something as simple as pre-stretching the bands before making the finger frame.
Have you looked into flat band frameless?


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## Yinn

skarrd said:


> agreed,nothing wrong with frame shooting,and ofen times the fork will be Much better looking than just a plain old hand


Totally agree skarrd, different strokes for different folks. I hope I didn't come off as a hardcore frameless fanboy, was just trying to help Pedroito out. I actually prefer my frames and shoot with frames most of the time. But I like to change things up, from flats to tubes, short pull to long pull, and the occasional frameless shooting to keep things interesting. 

In fact, I just had an unfortunate "frame hit" because of my carelessness, i.e. I shot my finger, and have shelved frameless for awhile until it fully heals. 

The point of this guide is not to highlight frameless, but to highlight the benefits of tubes. I feel that in frameless shooting, tubes are able to shine compared to flats (that I also shoot) because of its wearability and durability.


----------



## skarrd

didnt come off as hardcore,i also love my frames-i even make copies of my favorites for walking the river and shooting- i do prefer tubes over flats for frameless,and frameless for walking around shooting,but we all have ways we like better than others,one of the things that makes this as interesting and fun as it is


----------



## Pedroito

Another point for tubes, is that it was recommended by that 60 years old (now 70) ex US Navy Seal (or smthg strong like that) that used these to hunt and taught this in survival classes and to soldiers aswell.He was a badass, and he used only big tubes on big wooden frames (but also was a tall big guy so it compensates for the lack of power compared to flats). He was saying that for survival situations, it's way better to use tubes rather than flats, obviously because they are more durable and resisting to wear and tear.

The dude used to post on the forum and Bill Hayes praised him as well


----------



## wdtilley

Yinn said:


> Edited 17/8/22
> 
> Quick intro, I consider myself an intermediate slingshooter and have been into the sport for about a year now. I started my journey with tubes, but now also shoot flat bands, and love both equally. I have seen a lot of beginner tips for flat band and shooting in general, but there's a scarcity of information on tubes for beginners, and what's out there is very scattered. Being OCD I have done a lot of reading as well as personal testing, and would like to share my experience for those just starting out on their tube shooting journey. I figured the best way to present this is in Q&A format, from general to specific questions. I am assuming reader knows the basics of slingshots, and this guide is specific for tubes. To start off, please watch this video to see the ultimate form of tube shooting and get inspired: frameless, long pull, rapid shooting with amazing accuracy. Fast shooting with frameless tube
> 
> **Disclaimer, I live in a tropical climate, and with the warm weather my bands usually shoot at optimal performance; I have no experience shooting in cold weather. I shoot mostly short pull (cheek anchor), but am dabbling in butterfly. I shoot primarily 8mm (5/16") steel, but also occasionally shoot 9.5mm (3/8") steel and 11mm (7/16") steel. If I haven't personally verified a statement, I will mention so.
> 
> 1. Types of tubes & nomenclature
> 
> There are 2 general types of tubes commercially available, hollow (Dankung style) tubes as well as solid tubes
> Hollow tubes are listed as internal diameter / external diameter, in a tenth of millimeter. For e.g. 1842 tubes are 1.8mm internal diameter and 4.2mm external diameter
> Solid tubes (I have seen Americans calling them "dub-dub") are usually listed in mm
> 
> Hollow tubes are by far much more common and commercially available. I have seen sources stating that hollow tubes have superior performance (faster speed for lighter pull), but I cannot confirm it as I have no experience with solid tubes.
> 
> 2. Tube vs flat bands
> 
> Ok, this is a very controversial topic, with tons of discussions in multiple forums, and a lot of bias involved. I will try and be as unbiased as possible as I love both types, and I will list what I think is relevant in my experience, in terms of pros for each type (and hence relative con of the other)
> Pros of tubes
> Most significantly, better longevity - obviously there are many other factors that contribute to longevity, such as band thickness, tapering, elongation factor, brand, exposure etc. However in general, everyone agrees that tubes do last longer than flat bands, but specific mileage varies
> More durable - this is a huge one for me, and I don't see people talking about it often. Aside from longevity of a well stored band set, tubes are also much more durable and can withstand nicks and scrapes much better than flats. A tiny nick in a brand new flat band and it will break in a dozen shots. I noticed this most significantly when I made the transition from tubes to flats and stored them the same way, my flats were breaking very very quickly. Now, I just stick my framed tubes in my shooting bag, but protect my framed flats in a leather pouch before storing it away. For my EDC, I wear frameless tubes on my wrist everyday and they can withstand my daily activities no problem, not so for flats.
> Ease of making - tubes are very easy to make (just tie on pouch), compared to flats where you have to cut it to your specification. However, more advanced tube sets (pseudotapered, bead stuck (aka ball locked), protective casings etc) can be just as complicated, and takes just as much time to make
> Ease of attachment - this only applies to looped and bead stuck (aka ball locked), which takes seconds to change on frames with built in slots. Tie on tubes takes just as much effort, and conversely now many flat band frames offer quick clips that make banding much faster and easier
> Rapid shooting - tubes allow for rapid reloading, especially when shot in single tube OTT format
> Cost - I previously included cost in the "not significant" section, but after giving it some more thought, if budget was an issue or if you live in a place where it's difficult to source latex, you may want to stick with single tubes, cut with a more relaxed elongation (5x) to get the best mileage per roll. Aside from the above setting, in general I have not found much difference in costs.
> 
> Pros of flat bands
> Most significantly, better performance - no one denies that flat bands are almost always faster for a given draw weight / pull. Even untapered flats are faster than standard tubes, and pseudotapered tubes are still slower than tapered flats, despite near equal longevity. This is more apparent the thicker the bands.
> More frame options - this is a big one. There are tons of commercial options for flat band frames, but much less for tubes. And this disparity is getting bigger as flats continue to gain popularity. Its harder to fine a good tube frame that suits your shooting style (but still definitely possible). And its always possible to rig a flat frame to accommodate tubes.
> More consistent performance (between batches) - latex, being a natural product will always have some inherent inconsistencies, despite good QC on modern latex from big brands. However, I have noticed more variations and inconsistencies between batches of tubes than flats, even from the same manufacturer. If you're very OCD about consistent latex performance, stick with flats.
> Ease of tuning - ease of making is inversely related to ease of tuning. Because you have to cut the bands yourself, you gain more flexibility in tuning. For e.g., I stick with Snipersling yellow 0.6mm for my flats, and cut it narrower for 8mm steel and wider for my larger ammo. But for my tubes, I need to buy separate sizes for each ammo size, and also for different shooting styles (single, double etc).
> 
> 
> 3. Addressing advantages (of both types) others have mentioned that I feel are insignificant
> 
> Tubes are quieter - yes, tubes are quieter when shooting, but I find most of the sound coming from impact anyway, so don't find this a significant advantage
> Safety - some people have quoted tapered flats being safer as it usually frays at the pouch attachment, and if it snaps the bands usually fly forward and avoid face slaps. Conversely, some people say tubes are safer as when it starts frays, it usually frays slowly and can hang on much longer before it snaps, giving more time to notice it. Either way, check your bands often, and I have never had issues with either.
> Accuracy - ok this is a big one. I have seen many people complain that tubes are less accurate, and others saying they're the same. It is my firm belief that tubes ARE AS ACCURATE as flats. The problem isn't the type of the latex, but the system / attachment used. Single tubes with fixed attachments are just as easy to gain consistency (and hence accuracy) as flats. However the most popular tube system is looped double tubes, which is more difficult (but still possible) to be consistent and gain accuracy.
> 
> 4. Why are tubes less popular than flat bands
> 
> If you've read the above pros and cons, you can get a sense of why flat bands are more popular (or apparent popularity). Most hardcore slingshooters don't mind the the poorer longevity and more frequent & time consuming band making of flats, in exchange for better performance. They just "feel" better to shoot.
> However, I'm sure there are some reporting bias as well, as these hardcore users are also the ones making YouTube videos and posting on forums. More casual shooters who may prefer tubes because they couldn't be bothered with frequent and complex band making, are also less likely to go to social media about it.
> 
> 5. Types of tube systems
> 
> Single tubes
> Most akin to flat band shooting
> OTT style allows for quick reloading and rapid shooting
> Although tube OTT is good for rapid shooting (and I shoot OTT for my flat bands), I prefer TTF attachment for single tubes. Tube TTF has the benefit of having a narrower band to aim down compared to the wide aiming point of flat band TTF. And tube OTT's aiming point is slightly off laterally from the fork tip as the tubes are thicker than flats in OTT format, especially with addition of a larger tube casing or thick tabs
> 
> Double tubes
> Most common system of tube shooting
> Can be either freely moving (looped) or fixed (bead stuck / ball locked / clamped), both shoot like TTF (a lot of people mistakenly call typical looped tubes in looped frames as OTT, as one of the limbs go "over the top", however as the second limb goes between the forks, in reality it performs like TTF)
> Biggest benefit (and the reason why they're so popular) is the ease of making the bands as well as ease of swapping and attaching to frame
> Double tubes have slightly better performance than single tubes (slightly better speed for similar draw weight), but slightly worse longevity (2 thinner tubes break faster than 1 thicker tube). And because of the doubling of tube usage and shorter longevity, they tend to cost more.
> Biggest draw back, now that there are 2 tubes per fork, is that the horizontal alignment of the tubes and frame becomes very important (not a problem with flats and single tubes). I tend to shoot flat bands and single tubes with a straight wrist, with my frame pushed slightly forward horizontally. However if you do the same with "fixed" double tubes, it will throw off the windage of the shot as both limbs are not stretched equally. So it becomes important to maintain a perfectly perpendicular frame to the target (in addition to being perpendicular to the floor).
> "Looped" double tubes is able to adjust for straight wrist shooting because it's freely moving, however now has the problem of "binding" to the frame when being pulled. If the orientation of the frame when the binding occurs is not the same as the final position when aiming, the bands are not centered and are not stretched equally, it will again throw off the windage of the shot. So for looped tubes, it becomes important to pull the frame in the same orientation as it's being shot. Thinner and smoother frame loops does reduce this effect, as well as maxing out band elongation
> Because of the above reasons, many new tube shooters feel that tubes are less accurate then flats. However in actuality its not the tubes, but the systems and attachments that introduces additional factors that needs to be controlled, factors that some people are not aware of or used to controlling
> 
> Pseudotapered tubes
> There are many ways to pseudotaper tubes, but the 3 main types are semi-looped, Y-cocktail and tube-in-tube cocktail
> Benefit of pseudotapering is optimal performance (fastest speed for lightest pull), although I have never achieved the same performance as tapered flat bands
> Comes at a cost of reduced longevity
> Typical recommended pseudotapering is for 1/3 of the active length. That usually increases the draw weight by roughly 20% of equivalent single tubes
> Semi-looped pseudotapering is probably the most well known and common, meant for any frames that takes loops. Has the same issue of binding as looped double tubes. I use the 3rd method shown by Nate Masters for best longevity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Y-cocktail is for bead stuck or ball locked frames, as shown by GZK.
> 
> 
> 
> Has same issue of requiring perfectly perpendicular frame to prevent windage errors. Additional benefit of being cost effective, as it is made from 2 separate pieces of tubes, and usually only the distal / pouch end needs to be replaced
> Tube-in-tube cocktail is the most difficult to make, needing special tools. It's also the most flexible, and can be used for any of the systems. I have no personal experience but have read that it has the best longevity. Here's an example by GZK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6. Attachment systems
> 
> Production frames
> Loop frames
> Most widely available commercial tube frames. Has forks with large holes and insertion slots for looped tubes.
> Common examples are the famous SPS, Simpleshot Torque, Pocket Predator Taurus, Dankung style traditional wire loop frames etc
> Very popular as it allows for rapid attaching and swapping band sets
> Has problem with binding (see point 5)
> Another unique attachment is a single looped tube on a loop frame with additional midline hook / loop for quick attachment, usually shot OTT. Easiest attachment system for single tubes. Good example is GZK's Xiaofork.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ball in tube / bead stuck / ball locked
> Different names for the same system, where a small steel ball (usually 4.5mm) is stuck into frame end of tubes and locks tube in place to frame
> Good examples are GZK Victory 2, Victory 4, Sniper Eagle
> I was initially weary of the balls slipping out, but it's actually a very secure system
> Takes a bit more effort making the bands and inserting the balls. I'm able to do it with just my hemostat but there are dedicated insertion tools available
> If double tubes are used, has problem of needing perpendicular frame to target (see point 5). Hence tend to be offered in hammer style grip.
> 
> Clamps
> Any frame that offers external clamps or clips (flipclip for Simpleshot frames, clamps for Wasp frames, clips for Pocket Predator universal Ranger etc) can also attach looped or single tubes OTT or TTF by wrapping the loop around the screw, as shown by Nate Masters here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tubes comes around the fork and cause fraying at the fork junction, shortening band longevity
> 
> Plugs
> Don't see this very often, but some companies offer tube plugs for looped tubes. Have only really seen it from Wasp
> Benefit is the 2 limbs are side-by-side, less issue with unequal stretch
> There are 2 options, plug the tubes on target side and have bands come out straight towards you (performs like TTF)
> plug on shooter side and have bands come around the forks, either OTT or TTF and shoots like flat bands
> Plugging on shooter side does bring tubes around the fork and cause fraying at the fork junction, shortening band longevity
> 
> 
> DIY
> The beauty of tubes is that aside from pre-made attachments, there are so many other innovative ways to attach them to a fork
> Frameless!
> I think this is my favorite way of shooting tubes, and the main reason why I will never give up on tubes. It is just so cool and also the ultimate EDC. I have seen many frames being marketed as "EDC", but let's be honest, I would never carry a frame, however pocketable to a dinner or to my workplace. But I just went for an international conference and travelled overseas with my frameless tubes.
> Here is an example of how to make and shoot frameless by Hudson. How to Make and Shoot Frameless Slingshot
> Watch this video to be inspired by the ultimate form of tube shooting: frameless, long pull, rapid shooting with amazing accuracy Fast shooting with frameless tube
> 
> Tie or clipped onto any standard flat band frame
> Mostly for single tubes
> As tubes slip easier than flats, make extra loops with longer piece of tie on material and tying the tubes on really tight
> Always check for slippage before pulling to your face to avoid face slaps
> Use protective tube casing as tubes will fray at fork junction. The thicker tube will also help prevent slippage. Here's an example by GZK. The making of tube casing
> Probably my favorite way to shoot single tubes, since I get to use flat band frames that I like
> For universal frames that has both loop slots and flat band groves such as Simpleshot Torque and SPS, there's also this unique TTF option shown by Nate Masters (my favourite option) Tutorial-Torque Slingshot for TTF Tubular Bands
> 
> Tabs
> A very popular DIY attachment is using tabs, where tubes are attached onto tabs before tying onto flat band frames
> Commonly used tabs are strips of leather or microfiber (spare pouches are a popular option) or paracord.
> Many options available. Tabs can either be tied on single (with a hole) or looped. Tubes can either be looped through a tab, or tied on tight to become a single tube.
> Benefit over simple tie on is no need for protective casing as it doesn't rub against fork junction
> Here are some examples. gyspy catapult tabs the easy way! ROUGH AND READY NATURAL HUNTING SLINGSHOT TUBES & TABS Metro Made | Making a Tap & Tab Descender Slingshot
> 
> Pins
> I have seen people attaching loop tubes through forks with holes and pinning it with a peg (wooden, metal etc). Functions just like the Wasp plug attachment
> Should work on any frame that has a small hole at the forks, for e.g. Simpleshot Scout, Pocket Predator Universal Ranger, Wasp Uniphoxx
> Just like the plug attachment, there is option to pin on target side and have bands come out straight towards you, or pin on shooter side and have bands come around the forks, either OTT or TTF
> Pinning it to shooter side bring bands around fork and can cause fraying
> Nate Masters from Simpleshot also showed an innovative way to pin the looped tubes to the frame itself. More Ways to Install Bands on the Scout slingshot - Looped Tubes
> 
> Slots
> Don't see this often, and usually custom made, where people cut slots into their frames to attach the tubes (I have never done this). I'm not aware of any commercial frames that offer this system, but seems really cool.
> Here's an example by Volp The Flip Flop slingshot!
> 
> I'm sure there are other inventive ways to attach tubes to frames. If there's something I missed, please do share!
> 
> 
> 7. Best elongation factor
> 
> It's been my experience that its best to max out / near max out tube bands for better accuracy, compared to flat bands
> My go to would be to add 1cm to the active length with max elongation factor. Good example how to measure max elongation factor shown here by Mark. QUICK TIP: BAND ELONGATION
> For example, my current GZK 2040 has max elongation factor of 6x. My draw length is 75cm. So the max active length is 75 / 6 = 13cm. Add 1cm to that would make my active length 14cm.
> 
> 8. Tube performance data and charts
> 
> I have seen various tube performance data and charts reported for different size tubes and ammo, and noticed that they're very varied and contradictory. I have also tried to experiment on my own and bought many different tube sizes from various big brands (GZK, Dankung, Simpleshot, Precise).
> Here is my conclusion, unfortunately there are large variations and inconsistencies between various brands, sizes and even batches (of the same size/manufacturer). I have had tubes where the same size / brand had almost 30% difference in draw weight between batches. I even had, on 2 separate occasions with 2 different brands where a "thicker" band ended up having a lighter pull and slower speeds than a "thinner" band of the same brand.
> Hence, I see no point in reporting data, making charts and expecting reproducible numbers. In my opinion its more important to understand the average performance of a given tube size, and know that you may get a tube that is slightly lighter or heavier then expected, and that you're stuck with 10 meters of that product.
> If you're not okay with the above statement, tubes is not for you.
> 
> 9. Recommended tube size
> 
> Keeping in mind point no. 8, here is what tube sizes I'd recommend
> Please take note that I shoot short pull (cheek anchor), and I have only tried the standard sizes offered by most brands (1632, 2040, 1842, 1745, 2050, 3060). I have not tried the more unique sizes some brands offer (1636, 3050, 2055 etc).
> If trying out a new ammo size / tube brand for the first time, I will always recommend starting out with the "standard" tube size first, especially with larger ammo / tubes, as if you get a particularly "heavy" batch of tubes, you may not be able to draw / shoot it at all
> 8mm (5/16") steel
> single / pseudotapered - 2040 for standard, 1842 for heavy
> double - 1632 for standard, 2040 for heavy
> 
> 9.5mm (3/8") steel
> single / pseudotapered - 1842 for standard, 1745 for heavy
> double - 2040 for standard, 1842 for heavy
> 
> 11mm (7/16") steel
> single / pseudotapered - 1745 for standard, 2050 for heavy
> double - 1842 for standard, 1745 for heavy
> 
> For long pull / butterfly, downsize by 1 level of thickness (for example for 8mm steel, downsize single tube 2040 to 1632)
> 
> 10. What tube size / frame / system do I shoot
> 
> This is very dynamic and my answer will most certainly change with time, but as of today here is my answer
> Frameless single tube 2040 only Simpleshot black (because black looks good worn), 32cm total length (16cm active length in each limb). Comfortable length both for me to wear and shoot.
> Single tube 2040 15cm (14cm active length + 1cm for tying onto frame) with 3cm 2050 protective casing tied TTF on my Simpleshot Torque.
> Semi-looped pseudotaper 2040 14cm active length (5cm double, 9cm single) on my GZK Serpentine Fox (modified flat tips Dankung style frame).
> For 3/4 butterfly shooting, single tube 1632 58cm total length (29cm in each limb = 28cm active length + 1cm for attachment) on GZK Xiaofork-S.
> Y-cocktail pseudotaper 2040 15cm active length (5cm double + 1cm for attachment, 9cm single) on my GZK Sniper Eagle. My least shot frame as I don't like hammer grip, and don't like to be forced to keep my wrist bent to maintain a perpendicular frame.
> 
> Thanks for reading to the end guys, hope you found it helpful. If I missed anything, or any additional questions please do leave me a comment. I am still learning, and if relevant I will add it and give credit where due.


Thanks for your (article?) It confirms a lot that I have come to believe and has solved a question I've had. I shoot primarily tubes and as all things are possible, I also have not noticed a great difference in accuracy between tubes and flats. I am a little disappointed to see some companies seeming to be giving up on tubes by eliminating the tube attachment hole on their newest designs. I wonder if this isn't a mistake here in the USA. Thanks again


----------



## Yinn

wdtilley said:


> Thanks for your (article?) It confirms a lot that I have come to believe and has solved a question I've had. I shoot primarily tubes and as all things are possible, I also have not noticed a great difference in accuracy between tubes and flats. I am a little disappointed to see some companies seeming to be giving up on tubes by eliminating the tube attachment hole on their newest designs. I wonder if this isn't a mistake here in the USA. Thanks again


Thanks for your kind words wdtilley. I meant for it to be a short write up, but yeah it has kinda morphed into a full blown article (I can't help myself). 

Its true that there are less and less frames being made specifically for tubes. However it's really easy to rig a flat band frame for tubes, so I really don't mind. 

How do you like to shoot your bands? Single, double or pseudotapered? Also, do you have anything to add? Would love some constructive criticism.


----------



## ukj

So after reading all that info, broke out my tubes and tried to like them, failed again.
Good for those who shoot and like them, believe me I have tried many times just does not ,will not compair
to flat bands for me. 
Tubes feel "clunky" to me.
Carry on...
ukj


----------



## 202

Great post. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Yinn

ukj said:


> So after reading all that info, broke out my tubes and tried to like them, failed again.
> Good for those who shoot and like them, believe me I have tried many times just does not ,will not compair
> to flat bands for me.
> Tubes feel "clunky" to me.
> Carry on...
> ukj


It's alright ukj, everyone has their preference. There's nothing wrong with giving it a try and not liking it. 

Tubes do feel "stiffer" then flats, because it has a heavier pull. Also if you shoot doubles / loops, it can get twisted and messy to disentangle after every shot. 

However it's much easier to reload and reshoot single tubes, and that's why it's used for rapid shooting. 

Shoot straight!


----------



## europunk

Yinn said:


> Edited 17/8/22
> 
> Quick intro, I consider myself an intermediate slingshooter and have been into the sport for about a year now. I started my journey with tubes, but now also shoot flat bands, and love both equally. I have seen a lot of beginner tips for flat band and shooting in general, but there's a scarcity of information on tubes for beginners, and what's out there is very scattered. Being OCD I have done a lot of reading as well as personal testing, and would like to share my experience for those just starting out on their tube shooting journey. I figured the best way to present this is in Q&A format, from general to specific questions. I am assuming reader knows the basics of slingshots, and this guide is specific for tubes. To start off, please watch this video to see the ultimate form of tube shooting and get inspired: frameless, long pull, rapid shooting with amazing accuracy. Fast shooting with frameless tube
> 
> **Disclaimer, I live in a tropical climate, and with the warm weather my bands usually shoot at optimal performance; I have no experience shooting in cold weather. I shoot mostly short pull (cheek anchor), but am dabbling in butterfly. I shoot primarily 8mm (5/16") steel, but also occasionally shoot 9.5mm (3/8") steel and 11mm (7/16") steel. If I haven't personally verified a statement, I will mention so.
> 
> 1. Types of tubes & nomenclature
> 
> There are 2 general types of tubes commercially available, hollow (Dankung style) tubes as well as solid tubes
> Hollow tubes are listed as internal diameter / external diameter, in a tenth of millimeter. For e.g. 1842 tubes are 1.8mm internal diameter and 4.2mm external diameter
> Solid tubes (I have seen Americans calling them "dub-dub") are usually listed in mm
> 
> Hollow tubes are by far much more common and commercially available. I have seen sources stating that hollow tubes have superior performance (faster speed for lighter pull), but I cannot confirm it as I have no experience with solid tubes.
> 
> 2. Tube vs flat bands
> 
> Ok, this is a very controversial topic, with tons of discussions in multiple forums, and a lot of bias involved. I will try and be as unbiased as possible as I love both types, and I will list what I think is relevant in my experience, in terms of pros for each type (and hence relative con of the other)
> Pros of tubes
> Most significantly, better longevity - obviously there are many other factors that contribute to longevity, such as band thickness, tapering, elongation factor, brand, exposure etc. However in general, everyone agrees that tubes do last longer than flat bands, but specific mileage varies
> More durable - this is a huge one for me, and I don't see people talking about it often. Aside from longevity of a well stored band set, tubes are also much more durable and can withstand nicks and scrapes much better than flats. A tiny nick in a brand new flat band and it will break in a dozen shots. I noticed this most significantly when I made the transition from tubes to flats and stored them the same way, my flats were breaking very very quickly. Now, I just stick my framed tubes in my shooting bag, but protect my framed flats in a leather pouch before storing it away. For my EDC, I wear frameless tubes on my wrist everyday and they can withstand my daily activities no problem, not so for flats.
> Ease of making - tubes are very easy to make (just tie on pouch), compared to flats where you have to cut it to your specification. However, more advanced tube sets (pseudotapered, bead stuck (aka ball locked), protective casings etc) can be just as complicated, and takes just as much time to make
> Ease of attachment - this only applies to looped and bead stuck (aka ball locked), which takes seconds to change on frames with built in slots. Tie on tubes takes just as much effort, and conversely now many flat band frames offer quick clips that make banding much faster and easier
> Rapid shooting - tubes allow for rapid reloading, especially when shot in single tube OTT format
> Cost - I previously included cost in the "not significant" section, but after giving it some more thought, if budget was an issue or if you live in a place where it's difficult to source latex, you may want to stick with single tubes, cut with a more relaxed elongation (5x) to get the best mileage per roll. Aside from the above setting, in general I have not found much difference in costs.
> 
> Pros of flat bands
> Most significantly, better performance - no one denies that flat bands are almost always faster for a given draw weight / pull. Even untapered flats are faster than standard tubes, and pseudotapered tubes are still slower than tapered flats, despite near equal longevity. This is more apparent the thicker the bands.
> More frame options - this is a big one. There are tons of commercial options for flat band frames, but much less for tubes. And this disparity is getting bigger as flats continue to gain popularity. Its harder to fine a good tube frame that suits your shooting style (but still definitely possible). And its always possible to rig a flat frame to accommodate tubes.
> More consistent performance (between batches) - latex, being a natural product will always have some inherent inconsistencies, despite good QC on modern latex from big brands. However, I have noticed more variations and inconsistencies between batches of tubes than flats, even from the same manufacturer. If you're very OCD about consistent latex performance, stick with flats.
> Ease of tuning - ease of making is inversely related to ease of tuning. Because you have to cut the bands yourself, you gain more flexibility in tuning. For e.g., I stick with Snipersling yellow 0.6mm for my flats, and cut it narrower for 8mm steel and wider for my larger ammo. But for my tubes, I need to buy separate sizes for each ammo size, and also for different shooting styles (single, double etc).
> 
> 
> 3. Addressing advantages (of both types) others have mentioned that I feel are insignificant
> 
> Tubes are quieter - yes, tubes are quieter when shooting, but I find most of the sound coming from impact anyway, so don't find this a significant advantage
> Safety - some people have quoted tapered flats being safer as it usually frays at the pouch attachment, and if it snaps the bands usually fly forward and avoid face slaps. Conversely, some people say tubes are safer as when it starts frays, it usually frays slowly and can hang on much longer before it snaps, giving more time to notice it. Either way, check your bands often, and I have never had issues with either.
> Accuracy - ok this is a big one. I have seen many people complain that tubes are less accurate, and others saying they're the same. It is my firm belief that tubes ARE AS ACCURATE as flats. The problem isn't the type of the latex, but the system / attachment used. Single tubes with fixed attachments are just as easy to gain consistency (and hence accuracy) as flats. However the most popular tube system is looped double tubes, which is more difficult (but still possible) to be consistent and gain accuracy.
> 
> 4. Why are tubes less popular than flat bands
> 
> If you've read the above pros and cons, you can get a sense of why flat bands are more popular (or apparent popularity). Most hardcore slingshooters don't mind the the poorer longevity and more frequent & time consuming band making of flats, in exchange for better performance. They just "feel" better to shoot.
> However, I'm sure there are some reporting bias as well, as these hardcore users are also the ones making YouTube videos and posting on forums. More casual shooters who may prefer tubes because they couldn't be bothered with frequent and complex band making, are also less likely to go to social media about it.
> 
> 5. Types of tube systems
> 
> Single tubes
> Most akin to flat band shooting
> OTT style allows for quick reloading and rapid shooting
> Although tube OTT is good for rapid shooting (and I shoot OTT for my flat bands), I prefer TTF attachment for single tubes. Tube TTF has the benefit of having a narrower band to aim down compared to the wide aiming point of flat band TTF. And tube OTT's aiming point is slightly off laterally from the fork tip as the tubes are thicker than flats in OTT format, especially with addition of a larger tube casing or thick tabs
> 
> Double tubes
> Most common system of tube shooting
> Can be either freely moving (looped) or fixed (bead stuck / ball locked / clamped), both shoot like TTF (a lot of people mistakenly call typical looped tubes in looped frames as OTT, as one of the limbs go "over the top", however as the second limb goes between the forks, in reality it performs like TTF)
> Biggest benefit (and the reason why they're so popular) is the ease of making the bands as well as ease of swapping and attaching to frame
> Double tubes have slightly better performance than single tubes (slightly better speed for similar draw weight), but slightly worse longevity (2 thinner tubes break faster than 1 thicker tube). And because of the doubling of tube usage and shorter longevity, they tend to cost more.
> Biggest draw back, now that there are 2 tubes per fork, is that the horizontal alignment of the tubes and frame becomes very important (not a problem with flats and single tubes). I tend to shoot flat bands and single tubes with a straight wrist, with my frame pushed slightly forward horizontally. However if you do the same with "fixed" double tubes, it will throw off the windage of the shot as both limbs are not stretched equally. So it becomes important to maintain a perfectly perpendicular frame to the target (in addition to being perpendicular to the floor).
> "Looped" double tubes is able to adjust for straight wrist shooting because it's freely moving, however now has the problem of "binding" to the frame when being pulled. If the orientation of the frame when the binding occurs is not the same as the final position when aiming, the bands are not centered and are not stretched equally, it will again throw off the windage of the shot. So for looped tubes, it becomes important to pull the frame in the same orientation as it's being shot. Thinner and smoother frame loops does reduce this effect, as well as maxing out band elongation
> Because of the above reasons, many new tube shooters feel that tubes are less accurate then flats. However in actuality its not the tubes, but the systems and attachments that introduces additional factors that needs to be controlled, factors that some people are not aware of or used to controlling
> 
> Pseudotapered tubes
> There are many ways to pseudotaper tubes, but the 3 main types are semi-looped, Y-cocktail and tube-in-tube cocktail
> Benefit of pseudotapering is optimal performance (fastest speed for lightest pull), although I have never achieved the same performance as tapered flat bands
> Comes at a cost of reduced longevity
> Typical recommended pseudotapering is for 1/3 of the active length. That usually increases the draw weight by roughly 20% of equivalent single tubes
> Semi-looped pseudotapering is probably the most well known and common, meant for any frames that takes loops. Has the same issue of binding as looped double tubes. I use the 3rd method shown by Nate Masters for best longevity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Y-cocktail is for bead stuck or ball locked frames, as shown by GZK.
> 
> 
> 
> Has same issue of requiring perfectly perpendicular frame to prevent windage errors. Additional benefit of being cost effective, as it is made from 2 separate pieces of tubes, and usually only the distal / pouch end needs to be replaced
> Tube-in-tube cocktail is the most difficult to make, needing special tools. It's also the most flexible, and can be used for any of the systems. I have no personal experience but have read that it has the best longevity. Here's an example by GZK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6. Attachment systems
> 
> Production frames
> Loop frames
> Most widely available commercial tube frames. Has forks with large holes and insertion slots for looped tubes.
> Common examples are the famous SPS, Simpleshot Torque, Pocket Predator Taurus, Dankung style traditional wire loop frames etc
> Very popular as it allows for rapid attaching and swapping band sets
> Has problem with binding (see point 5)
> Another unique attachment is a single looped tube on a loop frame with additional midline hook / loop for quick attachment, usually shot OTT. Easiest attachment system for single tubes. Good example is GZK's Xiaofork.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ball in tube / bead stuck / ball locked
> Different names for the same system, where a small steel ball (usually 4.5mm) is stuck into frame end of tubes and locks tube in place to frame
> Good examples are GZK Victory 2, Victory 4, Sniper Eagle
> I was initially weary of the balls slipping out, but it's actually a very secure system
> Takes a bit more effort making the bands and inserting the balls. I'm able to do it with just my hemostat but there are dedicated insertion tools available
> If double tubes are used, has problem of needing perpendicular frame to target (see point 5). Hence tend to be offered in hammer style grip.
> 
> Clamps
> Any frame that offers external clamps or clips (flipclip for Simpleshot frames, clamps for Wasp frames, clips for Pocket Predator universal Ranger etc) can also attach looped or single tubes OTT or TTF by wrapping the loop around the screw, as shown by Nate Masters here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tubes comes around the fork and cause fraying at the fork junction, shortening band longevity
> 
> Plugs
> Don't see this very often, but some companies offer tube plugs for looped tubes. Have only really seen it from Wasp
> Benefit is the 2 limbs are side-by-side, less issue with unequal stretch
> There are 2 options, plug the tubes on target side and have bands come out straight towards you (performs like TTF)
> plug on shooter side and have bands come around the forks, either OTT or TTF and shoots like flat bands
> Plugging on shooter side does bring tubes around the fork and cause fraying at the fork junction, shortening band longevity
> 
> 
> DIY
> The beauty of tubes is that aside from pre-made attachments, there are so many other innovative ways to attach them to a fork
> Frameless!
> I think this is my favorite way of shooting tubes, and the main reason why I will never give up on tubes. It is just so cool and also the ultimate EDC. I have seen many frames being marketed as "EDC", but let's be honest, I would never carry a frame, however pocketable to a dinner or to my workplace. But I just went for an international conference and travelled overseas with my frameless tubes.
> Here is an example of how to make and shoot frameless by Hudson. How to Make and Shoot Frameless Slingshot
> Watch this video to be inspired by the ultimate form of tube shooting: frameless, long pull, rapid shooting with amazing accuracy Fast shooting with frameless tube
> 
> Tie or clipped onto any standard flat band frame
> Mostly for single tubes
> As tubes slip easier than flats, make extra loops with longer piece of tie on material and tying the tubes on really tight
> Always check for slippage before pulling to your face to avoid face slaps
> Use protective tube casing as tubes will fray at fork junction. The thicker tube will also help prevent slippage. Here's an example by GZK. The making of tube casing
> Probably my favorite way to shoot single tubes, since I get to use flat band frames that I like
> For universal frames that has both loop slots and flat band groves such as Simpleshot Torque and SPS, there's also this unique TTF option shown by Nate Masters (my favourite option) Tutorial-Torque Slingshot for TTF Tubular Bands
> 
> Tabs
> A very popular DIY attachment is using tabs, where tubes are attached onto tabs before tying onto flat band frames
> Commonly used tabs are strips of leather or microfiber (spare pouches are a popular option) or paracord.
> Many options available. Tabs can either be tied on single (with a hole) or looped. Tubes can either be looped through a tab, or tied on tight to become a single tube.
> Benefit over simple tie on is no need for protective casing as it doesn't rub against fork junction
> Here are some examples. gyspy catapult tabs the easy way! ROUGH AND READY NATURAL HUNTING SLINGSHOT TUBES & TABS Metro Made | Making a Tap & Tab Descender Slingshot
> 
> Pins
> I have seen people attaching loop tubes through forks with holes and pinning it with a peg (wooden, metal etc). Functions just like the Wasp plug attachment
> Should work on any frame that has a small hole at the forks, for e.g. Simpleshot Scout, Pocket Predator Universal Ranger, Wasp Uniphoxx
> Just like the plug attachment, there is option to pin on target side and have bands come out straight towards you, or pin on shooter side and have bands come around the forks, either OTT or TTF
> Pinning it to shooter side bring bands around fork and can cause fraying
> Nate Masters from Simpleshot also showed an innovative way to pin the looped tubes to the frame itself. More Ways to Install Bands on the Scout slingshot - Looped Tubes
> 
> Slots
> Don't see this often, and usually custom made, where people cut slots into their frames to attach the tubes (I have never done this). I'm not aware of any commercial frames that offer this system, but seems really cool.
> Here's an example by Volp The Flip Flop slingshot!
> 
> I'm sure there are other inventive ways to attach tubes to frames. If there's something I missed, please do share!
> 
> 
> 7. Best elongation factor
> 
> It's been my experience that its best to max out / near max out tube bands for better accuracy, compared to flat bands
> My go to would be to add 1cm to the active length with max elongation factor. Good example how to measure max elongation factor shown here by Mark. QUICK TIP: BAND ELONGATION
> For example, my current GZK 2040 has max elongation factor of 6x. My draw length is 75cm. So the max active length is 75 / 6 = 13cm. Add 1cm to that would make my active length 14cm.
> 
> 8. Tube performance data and charts
> 
> I have seen various tube performance data and charts reported for different size tubes and ammo, and noticed that they're very varied and contradictory. I have also tried to experiment on my own and bought many different tube sizes from various big brands (GZK, Dankung, Simpleshot, Precise).
> Here is my conclusion, unfortunately there are large variations and inconsistencies between various brands, sizes and even batches (of the same size/manufacturer). I have had tubes where the same size / brand had almost 30% difference in draw weight between batches. I even had, on 2 separate occasions with 2 different brands where a "thicker" band ended up having a lighter pull and slower speeds than a "thinner" band of the same brand.
> Hence, I see no point in reporting data, making charts and expecting reproducible numbers. In my opinion its more important to understand the average performance of a given tube size, and know that you may get a tube that is slightly lighter or heavier then expected, and that you're stuck with 10 meters of that product.
> If you're not okay with the above statement, tubes is not for you.
> 
> 9. Recommended tube size
> 
> Keeping in mind point no. 8, here is what tube sizes I'd recommend
> Please take note that I shoot short pull (cheek anchor), and I have only tried the standard sizes offered by most brands (1632, 2040, 1842, 1745, 2050, 3060). I have not tried the more unique sizes some brands offer (1636, 3050, 2055 etc).
> If trying out a new ammo size / tube brand for the first time, I will always recommend starting out with the "standard" tube size first, especially with larger ammo / tubes, as if you get a particularly "heavy" batch of tubes, you may not be able to draw / shoot it at all
> 8mm (5/16") steel
> single / pseudotapered - 2040 for standard, 1842 for heavy
> double - 1632 for standard, 2040 for heavy
> 
> 9.5mm (3/8") steel
> single / pseudotapered - 1842 for standard, 1745 for heavy
> double - 2040 for standard, 1842 for heavy
> 
> 11mm (7/16") steel
> single / pseudotapered - 1745 for standard, 2050 for heavy
> double - 1842 for standard, 1745 for heavy
> 
> For long pull / butterfly, downsize by 1 level of thickness (for example for 8mm steel, downsize single tube 2040 to 1632)
> 
> 10. What tube size / frame / system do I shoot
> 
> This is very dynamic and my answer will most certainly change with time, but as of today here is my answer
> Frameless single tube 2040 only Simpleshot black (because black looks good worn), 32cm total length (16cm active length in each limb). Comfortable length both for me to wear and shoot.
> Single tube 2040 15cm (14cm active length + 1cm for tying onto frame) with 3cm 2050 protective casing tied TTF on my Simpleshot Torque.
> Semi-looped pseudotaper 2040 14cm active length (5cm double, 9cm single) on my GZK Serpentine Fox (modified flat tips Dankung style frame).
> For 3/4 butterfly shooting, single tube 1632 58cm total length (29cm in each limb = 28cm active length + 1cm for attachment) on GZK Xiaofork-S.
> Y-cocktail pseudotaper 2040 15cm active length (5cm double + 1cm for attachment, 9cm single) on my GZK Sniper Eagle. My least shot frame as I don't like hammer grip, and don't like to be forced to keep my wrist bent to maintain a perpendicular frame.
> 
> Thanks for reading to the end guys, hope you found it helpful. If I missed anything, or any additional questions please do leave me a comment. I am still learning, and if relevant I will add it and give credit where due.


Love the amazing write up. I have a little question. So if I shoot single frameless full butterfly 58” full draw. I want to shoot 7.62mm steel and 9.5 mm steel. What is your recommendation? How fast will single 1636/32 and 1842 be? Also you think 1745 would be worth the extra draw weight for the speed increase. Also are any of the single 1636 , 1842 and 1745 doable with 10mm lead? Thanks again


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## Yinn

europunk said:


> Love the amazing write up. I have a little question. So if I shoot single frameless full butterfly 58” full draw. I want to shoot 7.62mm steel and 9.5 mm steel. What is your recommendation? How fast will single 1636/32 and 1842 be? Also you think 1745 would be worth the extra draw weight for the speed increase. Also are any of the single 1636 , 1842 and 1745 doable with 10mm lead? Thanks again


Hey europunk thanks!

Ok that's a lot of questions let me unpack that:

For frameless, always go lighter, I would not go beyond single 1842 to avoid injury to your fingers. At single 2040 short draw I can only shoot 2-3 dozen times before needing to rest my fingers. Frameless is not meant for hunting, so please do not be too obsessed with speed and power. 

For full butterfly and 7.6mm steel (which is the ammo I would recommend for frameless), start with either 1632 or 1636, and max I would go is 2040. 

For 9.5mm steel, go either 1636 or 2040, and max 1842 (would not recommend). 

I do not know the speeds, as I do not shoot full butterfly. And no, it is not worth going to 1745 for frameless.

And no, don't shoot 10mm lead for frameless. For normal framed shooting in full butterfly I would go single 1842 or 1745.


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## europunk

Yinn said:


> Hey europunk thanks!
> 
> Ok that's a lot of questions let me unpack that:
> 
> For frameless, always go lighter, I would not go beyond single 1842 to avoid injury to your fingers. At single 2040 short draw I can only shoot 2-3 dozen times before needing to rest my fingers. Frameless is not meant for hunting, so please do not be too obsessed with speed and power.
> 
> For full butterfly and 7.6mm steel (which is the ammo I would recommend for frameless), start with either 1632 or 1636, and max I would go is 2040.
> 
> For 9.5mm steel, go either 1636 or 2040, and max 1842 (would not recommend).
> 
> I do not know the speeds, as I do not shoot full butterfly. And no, it is not worth going to 1745 for frameless.
> 
> And no, don't shoot 10mm lead for frameless. For normal framed shooting in full butterfly I would go single 1842 or 1745.


Yinn
Thanks again for the help, I’ll stick with my 1636 for 7.6mm steel and 9.5mm steel. It’s just so addicting. I LOVE FRAMELESS. I will try the 1745 lips with one of my frames with 10mm lead. Thanks again for answering all my crazy questions


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## Yinn

europunk said:


> Yinn
> Thanks again for the help, I’ll stick with my 1636 for 7.6mm steel and 9.5mm steel. It’s just so addicting. I LOVE FRAMELESS. I will try the 1745 lips with one of my frames with 10mm lead. Thanks again for answering all my crazy questions


Haha, I love your enthusiasm europunk, and yes I love frameless too. It's so liberating to be able to shoot well without a frame. It's like free-diving or free climbing. Does it make you perform (dive / climb / shoot) better? Nope. Is it more difficult and more dangerous? Yep. Why do it then? For the challenge, the cool factor and sense of freedom!

You remind me a lot of myself, especially early on when I was a power fiend and was confident with my strength. But, learn from my experience: it's has nothing to do with how strong you are. I had no problems pulling double 1745s, but after consistent shooting for weeks, my fingers started hurting so bad that I think I had a micro-stress fracture (a nightmare for a surgeon), and had to take a few weeks break. Also, I've only had one frame hit, and that was when my arms were so fatigued with the heavy pull and I loss a bit of control of the frame. 

In the end, I asked myself this question - what's the obsession with power and speed? A powerful shot is useless if you can't land it on the target. Just look at the pro-circuit: they mostly shoot 7mm and 8mm steels.


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## Whytey

Throwing my spanner in here.....
I'm with @ukj on this one, flats but tapered.👍


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## Yinn

Whytey said:


> Throwing my spanner in here.....
> I'm with @ukj on this one, flats but tapered.👍
> View attachment 377644


That's awesome Whytey, love your frameless setup! How do you hold and use it? I need to make one myself! I use the standard resin clipped finger ring.

And again, nothing wrong with preferring tapered flats, in fact you'll be in the majority. But this is a guide for those who want to venture into tubes. Personally I actually shoot flats more, but also love shooting tubes, and alternate roughly 70 flats / 30 tubes. It's like comparing driving a Ferrari Spider or Dodge Ram, everyone will have their preference, and I'm sure majority will pick the Ferrari. Faster, smoother drive. But there are also truck lovers out there, who prefer the toughness of a truck. To each their own.


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## Whytey

Offering alternatives is always a good thing..... broadens one's horizons.


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## Yinn

Whytey said:


> Offering alternatives is always a good thing..... broadens one's horizons.


Gotcha thanks for sharing, so the cobra paracord serves as a wrist brace / lanyard. Cool idea. And nice butterfly stance. Need to really explore butterfly. Am too comfortable with short draw.


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