# Metro Grade Gibbon (Ply and Maple/Purpleheart ver)



## Metropolicity (Aug 22, 2013)

I really wanted to get to designing another asymmetrical design and I came up with this, the Gibbon!

I started by cutting a plywood wood version like I always do. Once I tweaked the design a bit, I went ahead a more lush version and a final premium version.

I didn't take any process photos of the plywood, but I took a quick pic of the laminating of the premium version. I turned some zebra wood on its edge to get some subtle detail in the glue line between the maple and Purple Heart. I wanted a more versatile frame for small and large hands, so the secondary hole is for the thumbs of smaller hands. Medium and large size hands can settle into the paracord on the bottom of the frame.

The two plywood version are to show how the slot works for the paracord. The third frame has a walnut pinky hole, but the walnut was a bit too thin so I had to sand back the wood a lot. The final version has a Purple Heart pinky hole. The premium frames are finished with three coats of tung oil with steel wool between each coat.

I also wanted to share a personal achievement, I telescoped my first arrow on Tuesday! The two conjoined arrows now sit in my shop as a trophy!


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## Samurai Samoht (Apr 6, 2013)

Really like that! Looks like a great design. Love the creativity you are bringing. :bowdown: And that's a sweet pic of the arrows. 

Tom


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## Tentacle Toast (Jan 17, 2013)

Very cool, man! Your use of the purple heart really adds to the asymmetry of the piece over all. Great work!


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## ralle1 (Jan 31, 2012)

very nice design thump up


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## Sunchierefram (Nov 16, 2013)

Hello Robin Hood.


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## phil (Dec 6, 2012)

Looks Awesome buddy I love it B)


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## S.S. sLinGeR (Oct 17, 2013)

It looks great! Love the new styles. Nice shooting as well!!!


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## Mrs. Clever Moniker (Nov 3, 2013)

Awesome design! All the elements really come together to make it a beautiful shooter! I like the details on the last 2 the most!


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## Metropolicity (Aug 22, 2013)

SamuraiSamoht said:


> Really like that! Looks like a great design. Love the creativity you are bringing. :bowdown: And that's a sweet pic of the arrows.
> 
> Tom


Thanks Tom! I had a free Saturday (very rare since I have a crazy work load these days) and I quickly banged this out and managed to make adjustments to a MKIII but didn't finish the frames.



Tentacle Toast said:


> Very cool, man! Your use of the purple heart really adds to the asymmetry of the piece over all. Great work!


Yah! That's what I thought. I really wanted to make some cool stuff with the maple and purpleheart, they were given to me by a good 'old' friend



ralle1 said:


> very nice design thump up


Thanks! I started with my Capuchin design in Illustrator and then sized it up about 15%, then shifted and pulled things around and had to resolve the thumb placement issue. I knew the thumb hole wouldn't be comfortable for everyone so I added the slot on the bottom of the frame like my Tamarin design and made it possible to grab it with a "L" grip.



Sunchierefram said:


> Hello Robin Hood.


I was so stoaked, you have no idea. I've been shooting a bow for about 2 years now and discovered slingshots from that. I think shooting slingshots for about a month straight helped with getting a clearer and quicker sight picture in any target sport I do now.



phil said:


> Looks Awesome buddy I love it B)


Thanks Phil! Your stuff is looking FINNNNNEEEEE. The double slot is my fave on your newest aluminum frame (you know, TTF and slots are my pref)



S.S. sLinGeR said:


> It looks great! Love the new styles. Nice shooting as well!!!


Thanks!! More slings to come!



Mrs. Clever Moniker said:


> Awesome design! All the elements really come together to make it a beautiful shooter! I like the details on the last 2 the most!


Yah! I had a moment of "ooooooo, yahhhhh". The laser cutter has a .04" kerf cut so when I cut the two parts, I needed to fill the space that the laser would vaporize. Once the pieces came out of the laser bed, all I needed to do was and the edge flat slightly to get ride of the draft angle that the laser could create. What better than Zebrawood!


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## Metropolicity (Aug 22, 2013)

Here are some hero shots of the Maple/Purpleheart and Walnut versions.


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## Metropolicity (Aug 22, 2013)

....and the plywood ones, I'll make these available on the site soon.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Nice slingshot.

Honestly though, if I didn't know better, it's really starting to look like you just visited my website to get your "inspiration" for these slingshots you came up with "in a dream".


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## Metropolicity (Aug 22, 2013)

Bill Hays said:


> Nice slingshot.
> 
> Honestly though, if I didn't know better, it's really starting to look like you just visited my website to get your "inspiration" for these slingshots you came up with "in a dream".


I started off trying to make one of your hathcocks to learn more about ergonomics and couldn't get it right. Obviously you've nailed that down. I figured, why copy it when I can try to come up with stuff to fits my hands.

These always start with the round of the inner fork area and the band attachments. Then I kind of put my hand up against the computer screen and see where the empty voids are, then I kind of fill the voids with shape blocks.

Can you show me the one you are referring to?

EDIT: Ok, I went to your website and saw the operator. It Somewhat look like it, but seriously, I just built up shapes until I liked the shape and went from there.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

How many examples would you like?

Here's a few to get you started:


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## Metropolicity (Aug 22, 2013)

I came here to share what I had been working on for a pleasing shape developed from a series of circles, rectangles, holes and a set of unique forks I developed on my own. I always ask if I am going to borrow something and I don't feel that I have. I am using an entirely different process than you and I respect your craft and business. 
 
I am not trying to instigate any kind of animosity, just trying to defend my career as a product designer.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Look, I don't mind people using my designs for their own use, and most of the time I don't even care if they sell some.

But this is getting kind of ridiculous.

You're a new guy who came on here and was obviously heavily influenced by my designs and concepts (and even admitted as much)... so you created a slightly different fork/band attachment and then proceeded to make laser knock offs of some of the models I sell.

No problem so far, that's fine and even encouraged to some extent... but you're taking it several steps further.

Claiming you designed the Ranger Tac, and SEAL Sniper slingshots... giving them silly monkey names... and then deciding you're going sell all this stuff "that you created from your own mind" AFTER seeing them on my website.... that's just taking it a bit to far and of course a response from me is required.

And this is my response:

I know there is nothing that can be legally done to protect most of this stuff from copy infringement, but for goodness sake, why don't you pick on somebody else's designs for a while?! Or better yet why not come up with something truly on your own?

You're obviously a talented guy, I'm sure you're more than capable... so let's see something new. Okay?


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## Metropolicity (Aug 22, 2013)

Ok, I am not sure how to respond, but here me trying.

When I started making slings, it is true, I saw your designs as great source of material, thoughtfully and well documented. I had never thought of shooting sideways.

I would NEVER and stress NEVER sell anything copied or stolen. As an individual who sells ideas for a living, you had to believe I understand intellectual property. I referred to your design when I started making the Marmoset ONLY and the deep grooves for the finger and thumb, I soon realized that there are a dozens of designs with this similar semi circular finger and thumb groove. The rest of the design was resolved through my own experimentation and methods.

Any subsequent designs INCLUDING this one was made after I took the symmetrical design and pushed things around to fit my hand. To say I copied your design and claimed as my own is a little unfair.

That's all I have to say on this issue.

Thanks and happy thanksgiving from your neighbour from the north.


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## Mister Magpie (Apr 10, 2013)

It doesn't take more than a couple weeks on this forum and a new accusation of copying is thrown at someone. Similarities should be expected since we are dealing with two forks held in the hand while a projectile is propelled with rubber. Ideas are being bounced around like crazy with everyone posting pictures and incorporating ideas from someone else. Can't imagine anyone is completely unaffected by someone else's work - not even the professionals!


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Metropolicity said:


> Ok, I am not sure how to respond, but here me trying.
> 
> When I started making slings, it is true, I saw your designs as great source of material, thoughtfully and well documented. I had never thought of shooting sideways.
> 
> ...


Okay so you're going with the story that you only copied parts of the Hathcock design and completely ignored everything else on the page, including the Ranger and SEAL Sniper designs which look suspiciously like your latest two that you came up with while dreaming.

Makes perfect sense to me... especially since you've never even considered sideways shooting before and you had no experience thinking along those lines... Coming up with designs that are almost exactly like mine from a dreamstate is very logical and highly likely scenario.

This is getting even more ridiculous. Just have fun and do whatever you like... you're going to anyway.

That's all.


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## Btoon84 (Nov 22, 2011)

Bill Hays said:


> Metropolicity said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, I am not sure how to respond, but here me trying.
> ...


Bill, I got no problems with you telling the dude that his slings look familiar. You got that right. However you are repeatedly inferring he is copying you/ripping off your designs. I know you've had problems in the past with ppl ripping off your designs and I can see why you'd feel obliged to say something. But I feel as though you are going about this a bit heavy handed. I do not have a personal relationship with either of you and am completely unbiased in this one. Bill, I think you should be PMing on this one.... That's my opinion. I also see you said "that's all" but we know how these things can go. I'd like to squarsh it before the back and forths go back and forth too many backandforthing times. Metro Grade, same advice, further related discussions would likely be better suited for PM. Much love.


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## Rayshot (Feb 1, 2010)

We do have to remember all our hands are remarkably similar and when two points of attachment are used and a handle affixed similarities will happen.

There are some inventions far more complex that were developed concurrently without knowledge of the other. Just read about this phenomenon recently.


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## MrTriscuit (Oct 10, 2011)

Bill Hays said:


> Metropolicity said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, I am not sure how to respond, but here me trying.
> ...


Hey bill I tried to pm you and your message box is full!


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Rayshot said:


> We do have to remember all our hands are remarkably similar and when two points of attachment are used and a handle affixed similarities will happen.
> 
> There are some inventions far more complex that were developed concurrently without knowledge of the other. Just read about this phenomenon recently.


True, but the part about "without knowledge of the other" doesn't apply in this case.


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## All Buns Glazing (Apr 22, 2012)

Irregardless, I think. You've both said your sides of the story in public which is fine, but I don't think it can go anywhere but downhill from here. I'm in agreement with Btoon here, this is best handled via PM.


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## Adirondack Kyle (Aug 20, 2012)

This design is a tube sniper template with diff fork tips!! Period!


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## ghost0311/8541 (Jan 6, 2013)

sounds diffrent then.


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## Adirondack Kyle (Aug 20, 2012)

Sorry bro, but this guys an ass clown, walks onto the slingshot scene with his mommas laser cutter, 
His plywood slingshots he sells are straight up dangerous! And plexiglass is not a stable material no matter the thickness!
These pieces of gavage will hurt someone and I'm disappointed that I'm the only one that is pointing this out.
There is a right way to do things, and a wrong way.


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## ghost0311/8541 (Jan 6, 2013)

i seen many plexglass ss on here some swear by them the design is diffrent but thats mpo.


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## August West (Jan 21, 2012)

double post


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## August West (Jan 21, 2012)

Adirondack Kyle said:


> Sorry bro, but this guys an *** clown, walks onto the slingshot scene with his mommas laser cutter,
> His plywood slingshots he sells are straight up dangerous! And plexiglass is not a stable material no matter the thickness!
> These pieces of gavage will hurt someone and I'm disappointed that I'm the only one that is pointing this out.
> There is a right way to do things, and a wrong way.


So some of these designs have broke before? As far as just walking onto the slingshot scene, how long have you been on the scene Kyle?

*** clown? Garbage? Bold statements my friend.

Wish my mom had a laser cutter. LOL


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## Mrs. Clever Moniker (Nov 3, 2013)

A.K : It has a similar shape, but completely different materials, different band set-up and different details that make it unique.

Do you have any proof to back up your statements? 
Would you consider this the "right way" to confront the issue.


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## Adirondack Kyle (Aug 20, 2012)

2 years, not as long as you, but I test everything I build, and cutting multiple slots per fork tip? On plywood??
I'm a woodworker by trade, and I work with plexiglass for a living, I can tell you its brittle and one lead ball will smash it to pieces!!
Also, it would have been very easy for anyone to print out a template, change the forks and call it something else?
I ship free slingshots every day and I'm lucky that I get to shoot with the people I sell to locally
My plywood has a hard resin core running through it, and I wouldn't try that

Also, if someone buys a plywood frame from this man, and loses an eye, they might think multiplex is unsafe, and put everyone who sells multiplex sling shots in jeapordy! 
This isn't just aimed at metro, there's plenty of people selling looped tube shooters from basic plywood with no core, that's dangerous as well


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## Adirondack Kyle (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm done, I wouldn't have had to make this statement a year ago, all the honest people are gone, 
So am I!!
PS: most pro builder/sellers know that most customers are BRAND NEW shooters, 
Stumbling upon his website could render you blind and out of commission.
How many fork hits did it take you to get the hang of shooting, 
I bet most of you were god damn happy you learned on a BILL Hayes frame!!!!!


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## S.S. sLinGeR (Oct 17, 2013)

Wammmmmmmp!!!! 
Sorry i can't hear you over my chainsaw


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

Adirondack Kyle said:


> 2 years, not as long as you, but I test everything I build, and cutting multiple slots per fork tip? On plywood??
> I'm a woodworker by trade, and I work with plexiglass for a living, I can tell you its brittle and one lead ball will smash it to pieces!!
> Also, it would have been very easy for anyone to print out a template, change the forks and call it something else?
> I ship free slingshots every day and I'm lucky that I get to shoot with the people I sell to locally
> ...


Why did you resort to ad hominem attacks instead of providing solid evidence of your claims. What does being an "a$$ clown" have anything to do with anything???


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## Mister Magpie (Apr 10, 2013)

Adirondack Kyle said:


> I wouldn't have had to make this statement a year ago, all the honest people are gone.


?


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## S.S. sLinGeR (Oct 17, 2013)

Yeah I think I'm honest.


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## S.S. sLinGeR (Oct 17, 2013)

And I know a lot others on here that are too. And I'm only here a month.


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## Adirondack Kyle (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm not trying to offend anyone, the template is a Bill Hayes template,
The design is faulty, that's it, my apologies to those who have already made my point the last time this guy posted his ply fork tips.:
Steel cores would be an easy fix for a man who can afford a laser cutter, 
I just don't want there to be more people who think slingshots are dangerous


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## S.S. sLinGeR (Oct 17, 2013)

Hey Kyle. Some have just Been having ruff days I see and that's cool. We all do.  let's just put it all behind us and shoot. You will learn there are some honest people still here  as for the slingshot safety. Hmmm I'm all about trying new stuff even if it is potentially dangerous. I guess that's how we learn. Hope your day brightens up.


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## S.S. sLinGeR (Oct 17, 2013)

Adirondack Kyle said:


> I'm not trying to offend anyone, the template is a Bill Hayes template,
> The design is faulty, that's it, my apologies to those who have already made my point the last time this guy posted his ply fork tips.:
> Steel cores would be an easy fix for a man who can afford a laser cutter,
> I just don't want there to be more people who think slingshots are dangerous


Understood


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

Adirondack Kyle said:


> I'm not trying to offend anyone, the template is a Bill Hayes template,
> The design is faulty, that's it, my apologies to those who have already made my point the last time this guy posted his ply fork tips.:


If the template is Bill's, then the argument is between him and Bill. Bill is fully capable of defending his own position, and he did so without resorting to personal attacks... please don't make Mr. Hayes look bad by taking the position you're supporting him.


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## BC-Slinger (Jan 6, 2013)

We have a official trouble maker ..... :yeahthat: I would suggest getting a life there awesome.

Cheers

BC-Slinger


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## Adirondack Kyle (Aug 20, 2012)

I guess you wouldn't understand moniker, I'm in no way acting on Bills behalf!!
I would do the same for you, 
For a long time here on the forum we had a mutual respect, that's all this is about.
And saving people from a dangerous situation.


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## ghost0311/8541 (Jan 6, 2013)

when it come down to it no one has forced anyone to buy from either of the 2 like saying the ranger and the snoddy $ slingshot is the same its not there are diffrent design a nova and a duster not the same car MOP i like both designs and if there is one sling shot i have copyed more its the seal sniper fits my hand very well.


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

BC-Slinger said:


> We have a official trouble maker ..... :yeahthat: I would suggest getting a life there awesome.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> BC-Slinger


BC, I'm just getting sick of the poor debate skills expressed in the forum. Surely you can understand that. Instead of providing evidence supporting his position, he called the guy an a$$ clown. Then says, I'm not trying to offend anyone... I don't need a doctorate in philosophy to know this is simply poor argumentation.



Adirondack Kyle said:


> I guess you wouldn't understand moniker, I'm in no way acting on Bills behalf!!
> I would do the same for you,
> For a long time here on the forum we had a mutual respect, that's all this is about.
> And saving people from a dangerous situation.


Look, I'm not on any side of the fence. I'm not trying to insult you either... I simply think this should be between Metro and Bill, the mods had already expressed that fact as well.


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## S.S. sLinGeR (Oct 17, 2013)

I would have started the pm with metro at message 12.


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## ghost0311/8541 (Jan 6, 2013)

there a badge for that trouble maker looks like you mite have one more opening there BC S


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## Adirondack Kyle (Aug 20, 2012)

I apologize to anyone who got dragged through the mud on this

This has little to do with Bill and Metro, and everything to do with principles in which we must conduct ourselves in order to be able to co tinue to make and sell slingshots. If we don't watch ourselves ,we will be required by the federal gov to carry liability insurance, go ask Nathan how much that costs!! If you can find a company willing to play ball.
If you think this is a pissing match, you are wrong


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## Clever Moniker (May 12, 2013)

ghost0311/8541 said:


> there a badge for that trouble maker looks like you mite have one more opening there BC S


Nice one ghost!! Haha.

However, in BC-Slingers defense... I think he does like being a bit of a trouble maker.  A forum wouldn't be lively without some.


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## Mister Magpie (Apr 10, 2013)

Adirondack Kyle said:


> For a long time here on the forum we had a mutual respect, that's all this is about.


Mutual respect? You mean mutual respect like this:



Adirondack Kyle said:


> Sorry bro, but this guys an *** clown, walks onto the slingshot scene with his mommas laser cutter,
> His plywood slingshots he sells are straight up dangerous! And plexiglass is not a stable material no matter the thickness!
> These pieces of gavage will hurt someone and I'm disappointed that I'm the only one that is pointing this out.
> There is a right way to do things, and a wrong way.


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## Adirondack Kyle (Aug 20, 2012)

I stand by every word, anyone who decides to sell to the general public has a responsibility to adhere to industry standards.
These standards were pointed out months ago , now that he wants to ship slingshots to my state,NY, HE PUTS ME IN JEOPARDY, 
One person eats a fork up here, gov Cuomo will be all over it, like I said, I don't expect some of you to understand.
I


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## ghost0311/8541 (Jan 6, 2013)

i have no hard feeling towards anyone one here i also understand what your saying but that will be on him or her or who ever past or present like buy ing some thing over the e net they cant tax it cant stop it i ship to places that are not allowed by ther laws to own dont stop them from geting them when sling shots are outlawed only outlaws will have slingshots. and no one offends me


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## Adirondack Kyle (Aug 20, 2012)

I respect anyone who has the guts to go into business for themselves, and despite what some sling companies think, the world is big enough for all of us to prosper in this business, 
The only thing we truly have is our word, and our principals, I actually kinda like metros designs, I just think people need to put more thought into their delivery, ( I guess I do too) . This forum is a wealth of information, all you have to do is use the search engine , and you will find all you need to know, but guys ,let's please make sure our kids kids can enjoy this sport in the future. These concepts weren't invented by myself, I learned woodworking from my uncle, but I learned how to build slingshots from this forum.give credit where credit is due, not from an angel in the night, but inspiration from the people who did it well, before us!


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## flippinout (Jul 16, 2010)

Adirondack Kyle said:


> This has little to do with Bill and Metro, and everything to do with principles in which we must conduct ourselves in order to be able to co tinue to make and sell slingshots. If we don't watch ourselves ,we will be required by the federal gov to carry liability insurance, go ask Nathan how much that costs!! If you can find a company willing to play ball.


I carry liability insurance because it is a business 'best practice'. Any vendor who wishes to sell slingshots beyond their website or this forum will be required by outside vendors(dealers/distributors) to carry adequate liability coverage for their products-it is a price you pay for growth. It is a staggering expense but offers my family peace of mind and let's my customers know that I am fully invested in my product and their satisfaction. The federal government is the least of my concerns.... There will always be small makers and manufacturers. If they create a product that harms the user, they will fail and they will cease to exist in the marketplace thus auto-regulating and negating the need for keyboard commando watchdogs like we have seen here.

Come on, we are here to enjoy slingshots and the blessings they bestow upon us, not quibble like teenage girls!


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## Adirondack Kyle (Aug 20, 2012)

Thanks for clarifying, I'm finding this out as I'm searching for local sports stores to carry my products. 
Its too expensive for me at this time. 
I do apologize to metro for my choice of words , I think his fork designs are awesome , I just wanted to make a few points , prob should have kept my mouth shut. Thanks


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## Dr J (Apr 22, 2013)

That is why I like my Naturals! Mother Nature is not going to complain if I cut two identical forks from a tree. All the best!


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## brainleak (Nov 9, 2011)

Way too many of these types of posts going around recently here at the SSF. I can understand why people are put off by them.


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## mrtom (Apr 7, 2013)

That laminate gibbon is the nuts mate love it!


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