# apologies up front



## flippinout (Jul 16, 2010)

It is sunday morning, the creative juices are flowing, and wood chips are about to fly. I want to apologize up front to all that will be inadvertantly copied today. I especially want to apologize to all of the forked limbs on trees, and most especially the letter 'Y'. As both will be a heavy influence on my design style. Honestly, I had no idea that I am about to copy elements of at least 90% of all slingshots in existence. So please know that I engage this process with the awareness that the only thing about what I am to create that is truly mine is the labor.

BTW- I hope the sarcasm is not lost on all. I am off to my happy place in the wood shop!


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

_*I will be watching!!!*_


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Seriously, I don't think many or hardly any really care if you copy a design for your own personal use. I know I don't care... But... 
1) _some people_ on this forum straight out copy a *unique* design that is in production... and then turn around and try to, or do sell it... in direct competition with the originator of the unique and original design. OR... 
2) _some people_ Lay claim to someone else's original design as being their own when pictures and or drawing were posted of that same thing previously. OR...
3) _some people_ Will make a "clone" and its not made out of tested for that purpose and of that dimensions use, thereby making an unsure or even possibly a dangerous creation... based on an original design from the actual creator of said design.

In all three instances mentioned, I DO care... and so should YOU.
And here's the reason why.

IF TO MUCH UNAUTHORIZED, BLATANT COPYING AND SUB-PAR RESELLING OCCURS... THEN THE CREATIVE MINDS THAT BROUGHT TO LIGHT THE ORIGINAL AND MORE UNIQUE CREATIONS *WILL NOT POST PICTURES OR EVEN DESCRIPTIONS OF THEIR NEWEST OR BEST CREATIONS.*

In that case the truly creative aspects of this endeavor, that we all _seem_ to appreciate, will begin to be more limited... and then eventually will grow stagnant... as we all "ooooo and ah" over the latest knock-off of someone elses work and concepts.
I for one, appreciate a "stage", or in this case a forum, where creations can be shared... without the fear and or irritation of intellectual property theft.

I KNOW for a fact this has already occurred and THAT is the real shame.


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## mxred91 (Aug 8, 2010)

I look forward to seeing what you come up with.


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## harpersgrace (Jan 28, 2010)

tree limbs and the letter *Y* tend to be very forgiving, so have a ball.....just be very careful if any of your designs copy the letter* Z* he tends to be very grumpy....


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## Darb (Sep 14, 2010)

flippinout said:


> I especially want to apologize to all of the forked limbs on trees, and most especially the letter 'Y'.


Dear Sir,

Please be advised that I've been retained in a legal capacity by the letter 'Y.

My client is aware of your latest undertaking, and has asked me to defend his intellectual property rights, and his physical likeness, with utmost vigor.

We are already engaged in legal action against the International Plumber's Union, for their unauthorized use of my client's likeness in their "plumber's crack" coat of arms ... ( Y ) ... and we're also suing The East-coast chapter of the Estrogen Society, for their unauthorized use of my client's likeness in their "décolletage" trademark ... ( o Y o ).

We'll be keeping our eyes on yew.









j/k


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Well if you're a little nervous about the letter Y, you can always go to the W -- I am sure Joerg doesn't mind.









http://slingshotforum.com/topic/53-w-slingshot-made-from-wood-with-common-tools/page__p__113__fromsearch__1#entry113


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## ZDP-189 (Mar 14, 2010)

harpersgrace said:


> tree limbs and the letter *Y* tend to be very forgiving, so have a ball.....just be very careful if any of your designs copy the letter* Z* he tends to be very grumpy....










Gnarrr snarl.

Actually, it's usually not the copying that is the most contentious issue for me (if you want to copy my designs, contact me first and we'll work out if it's appropriate and if so how to make something safe), but people who say I have no right to ask people not to copy it without asking overstep the mark. I always just restate my position in both instances. I'm done yelling.


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

Hey, the "W" is a good example how you should deal with these issues.

That wasn't my original design. Bill Herriman gave it to me a long time ago. Even though I have modified it in a million ways, I won't ever stop mentioning him as the original designer.

And of course I don't sell it.

Jörg


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## whipcrackdeadbunny (May 22, 2010)

Home use is one thing, for sale is another ... no? permission or not?


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## harpersgrace (Jan 28, 2010)

ZDP-189 said:


> tree limbs and the letter *Y* tend to be very forgiving, so have a ball.....just be very careful if any of your designs copy the letter* Z* he tends to be very grumpy....










Gnarrr snarl.

Actually, it's usually not the copying that is the most contentious issue for me (if you want to copy my designs, contact me first and we'll work out if it's appropriate and if so how to make something safe), but people who say I have no right to ask people not to copy it without asking overstep the mark. I always just restate my position in both instances. I'm done yelling.









[/quote]









Sorry ZDP I wasn't talking about you nor was I thinking about you when I made this statement, I was talking about the letter Z as in ABC etc etc....(it was supposed to be humorous) 
I'll just keep my mouth shut from now on...


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## flippinout (Jul 16, 2010)

Well that has pretty much made up my mind. I'm done with slingshots! I am working on my proprietary knife that is shaped like a spoon and functions like chopsticks. Bet no one has issue with that

Geesh!! If you can't laugh about it, I think I might just go hide and cry. Really people, its a freakin hobby for most of us. POINT TAKEN!!


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## Darb (Sep 14, 2010)

flippinout said:


> Well that has pretty much made up my mind. I'm done with slingshots! I am working on my proprietary knife that is shaped like a spoon and functions like chopsticks. Bet no one has issue with that
> 
> Geesh!! If you can't laugh about it, I think I might just go hide and cry. Really people, its a freakin hobby for most of us. POINT TAKEN!!


No no no, please don't give up ... I dont think that was the intent here.









Some of us (myself included) were simply matching your own humor (while poking a little fun at some of the awkward complexities of intellectual property considerations), and some others are vendors here who design and sell unique slingshot designs for supplemental income. Some of the latter people were trying to explain a little of the 'lay of the land' with regards to professional etiquitte and attribution/partnership when it comes to closely overlapping or directly borrowed designs. The same sort of things happen when professional musicians work together if/when some of their works overlap with regards to riffs and phrases and lyrics.

If you're creating something for yourself, there's 0% to fret about ... however, some professional courtesy and discussion is appropriate if you borrow generously from other people's measurements and design features in order to establish a product line of your own that you plan to sell for income, in competition with said people. No more, no less.

I hope that helps add a little perspective.


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## flippinout (Jul 16, 2010)

Good enough! However, I have actually explored utility and design patents for a slingshot I have designed that is unique. The advice of the overpaid patent attorney I consulted indicated that there is little patentable slingshot work left to be done in this world of ours.

Regardless, as I have stated before- no one has to fear me as competiton. I can't raise a family of four on slingshots alone and I don't care to try to make a business out of hobby.

The knife/spoon/ chopstick is MINE however! Ha


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## BCLuxor (Aug 24, 2010)

This issue is eating the forum away like a cancer







out of interest who owns/is there the patent for a slingshot?


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## jmplsnt (Jan 1, 2010)

Killer thread and perhaps the best one I've seen on this forum yet. It's got me chuckling. You know it's good when all you can do is shake your head and hope for a better day....


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

I just love a good copy.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

*sigh* Didn't want to say anything serious here, but I must admit that the joy i used to feel about making a new board cut has been replaced by dread and anxiety. Slowly the "fun" part of this hobby is being drained.


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## lucifer93 (May 4, 2010)

I love this thread i nearly wet myself laughing, i was never the naughty boy at school but mom used to say i was always best friends with the naughty one LOL. To tell the truth if i see something i like will i copy it sure but will i be making knock offs for ebay of course not. The thing is with me if someone tells me i can't do something i always will do it. I think if you copys someones work and then sell it as an original of theirs thats wrong but whats wrong for me is not for others. I want to buy one of Jim's slingshots can i make it sure but will i no of course i will not, thats just me. I really do think that if you make a slingshot and somebody copys it and it upsets you so much stop making them and find another hobby.

A *hobby* is an activity or interest that is undertaken for pleasure or relaxation, typically done during one's leisure time


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

I just made absolutely perfect counterfeits of Dan's Scallops and Bill's Predator. But I'm calling them by some cool new names and selling them on ebay. Now I gotta worry about some people dissing my really cool and profitable hobby???










Why can't you all just _*leave me alone*_???


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Geez, my hobby is copying people's slingshots and selling them on ebay. Is that so wrong?


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## USASlingshot (Feb 25, 2010)

Dayhiker said:


> I just made absolutely perfect counterfeits of Dan's Scallops and Bill's Predator. But I'm calling them by some cool new names and selling them on ebay. Now I gotta worry about some people dissing my really cool and profitable hobby???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


dayhiker, i love your picture! lol


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## lucifer93 (May 4, 2010)

Bill was that directed at me mate ?
If so you need to really chill out. I have been working since the age of 13 i'm now 38 and i'm semi retired, why because i saved. I spend 6 months in the UK and 6 months out of the country visting all the places i want to see meeting new people and making new friends. I have bag money thats carry bags full of cash that i plan to spend before i die. Now why would i waste time making slingshots to sell on ebay when i have savings and i earn around £500 to £700 a day tattooing in my studio when i go with clients booked up 6 months in advance plus get 50% of everyone that works in all three studios i own. Now if i was going to make slingshots for profit i would pay a pinoy in the philippines £1.50 a day to make them for me and not wast my time.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Just being silly Lucifer.







I was trying to lampoon the ones who see you as a threat.


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## mr.joel (Dec 21, 2009)

luxor5 said:


> This issue is eating the forum away like a cancer


True dat


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Easy solution that I mentioned before. Put the serious entrepreneurs in the vendors section and let them patent or copyright their slingshots.
Or start a "Neanderthal Makers" forum for those of us who just want to carve, shoot and trade slingshots.


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## lucifer93 (May 4, 2010)

Dayhiker said:


> Easy solution that I mentioned before. Put the serious entrepreneurs in the vendors section and let them patent or copyright their slingshots.
> Or start a "Neanderthal Makers" forum for those of us who just want to carve, shoot and trade slingshots.


+1 i agree


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## USASlingshot (Feb 25, 2010)

Dayhiker said:


> Easy solution that I mentioned before. Put the serious entrepreneurs in the vendors section and let them patent or copyright their slingshots.
> Or start a "Neanderthal Makers" forum for those of us who just want to carve, shoot and trade slingshots.


it could be as easy as stop copying peoples designs and everyone make their own. but it seems some people need to make copies of otheres without permision which causes arguments


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Or it could be as easy as if you don't want to share don't post.


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## mxred91 (Aug 8, 2010)

Dayhiker said:


> Easy solution that I mentioned before. Put the serious entrepreneurs in the vendors section and let them patent or copyright their slingshots.
> Or start a "Neanderthal Makers" forum for those of us who just want to carve, shoot and trade slingshots.


I agree with that. There are hobbyists and Vendors. As a hobbyist I think it is a compliment if someone copies your design. I can see where a vendor would appreciate people buying that which they have put hours of work and cash into developing.


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

Ach, if you guys would use the time and imagination you put into threads like this for coming up with own designs instead, then this forum would be even more interesting and we would all have more fun.

So stop the bitching and start inventing. I am getting tired of this.


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## NaturalFork (Jan 21, 2010)

JoergS said:


> Ach, if you guys would use the time and imagination you put into threads like this for coming up with own designs instead, then this forum would be even more interesting and we would all have more fun.
> 
> So stop the bitching and start inventing. I am getting tired of this.


Well said.


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## Darb (Sep 14, 2010)

I have the luxury of being a consumer, rather than a supplier, in this particular niche of life, and don't plan on abandoning that anytime soon.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

JoergS said:


> Ach, if you guys would use the time and imagination you put into threads like this for coming up with own designs instead, then this forum would be even more interesting and we would all have more fun.
> 
> So stop the bitching and start inventing. I am getting tired of this.


Joerg, this is a forum.


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## flippinout (Jul 16, 2010)

[Wow!! I was just kiddin' around when i started this thread this morning. But as the day wore on i realized i had to deliver, so here are few pictures of what i have worked on today. Let me state up front, this is an evolution of a frame that i have made to fit MY hand and shooting style. I borrowed the geometry and general size from Flatband's Chief AJ WRS slingshot, the slingshot that got me started shooting after a 25 year hiatus. What's more, it is NOT for sale and i am rather proud of it.

I have to pull the tigers tail and invite the critique. Did i do a good job of copying someone? Who was it?... and who did they copy it from? Just how many design elements did i borrow from others?

This should be fun...


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Nice!







Looks like you know what you're doing all right.


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## USASlingshot (Feb 25, 2010)

That is very nice! I can see a few different designs in there







LOL. I'm jk, it looks good


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

Dayhiker said:


> Joerg, this is a forum.


Exactly.

On a forum, people can express their opinions if they follow the rules. And my strong opinion happens to be that you guys need to stop complaining and start inventing.

This thread is pure provocation. Do you really want to force Aaron to come up with rules for the copy issue? Because that will happen if you continue this discussion. I don't really like rules and much prefer that everybody behaves like gentlemen.

Copying another man's design without asking, then boasting around with the "product" is not the proper behaviour of a gentleman, not in my my book.

And by now, I am REALLY tired of this issue.


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

flippinout, good job. Looks like a great shooter.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

flippinout said:


> I have to pull the tigers tail and invite the critique. Did i do a good job of copying someone? Who was it?... and who did they copy it from? Just how many design elements did i borrow from others?
> 
> This should be fun...


Alright you asked for it so here you go... below is a design that's VERY similar to your newly made one that I posted up for free consumption, some time ago. First is the cutout/pattern and second is one I made myself with a cant to the handle. Finger grooves and all.

So you see, I really don't care about people copying most of my designs for their own personal use. I have even posted patterns for some... it's only when some people rip off a design by claiming it as their own when in fact it is not, or copying and selling designs that are in current production by respected manufacturers... that I start to object.


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## Mtnfolk Mike (Aug 23, 2010)

haha.. this is a great thread, that indeed got lots of folks thinking as well as chuckling...











flippinout said:


> [Wow!! I was just kiddin' around when i started this thread this morning. But as the day wore on i realized i had to deliver, so here are few pictures of what i have worked on today. Let me state up front, this is an evolution of a frame that i have made to fit MY hand and shooting style. I borrowed the geometry and general size from Flatband's Chief AJ WRS slingshot, the slingshot that got me started shooting after a 25 year hiatus. What's more, it is NOT for sale and i am rather proud of it.
> 
> I have to pull the tigers tail and invite the critique. Did i do a good job of copying someone? Who was it?... and who did they copy it from? Just how many design elements did i borrow from others?
> 
> This should be fun...


that came out great Flippinout... looks like a nice and comfortable shooter... nice work..


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## harpersgrace (Jan 28, 2010)

Nice design, looks a bit (just a bit) like the old Weber Slingbow..








Woops I never could keep my mouth shut...


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## USASlingshot (Feb 25, 2010)

Haha u asked for it







honestly, it's hard to make an origional SS that looks like nothing else. It takes a special person like joerg


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## Brooklyn00003 (Feb 28, 2010)

Great work ! Looks beautiful.


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## flippinout (Jul 16, 2010)

I think this proves the point i have been attempting to make. Not much new can be done with a fork that fits in a human hand.

Bill's Vergo is a beauty, and no, i had not seen it before i started molding my frame to my hand. I don't think the thumb and forefinger can go many other places on a fork, and the rest of the fingers have got only one place left. I suppose that the human hand is fundamentally the same, excepting size, the world over. The weber slingbow is certainly older than Bill's Vergo. Now that i know that Bill has posted the Vergo design for all to use, i intend to make one per his plans and see just how close my frame comes to his, just for giggles- and it is a great looking frame if i do say so myself









What is most important to me, is that i got to spend a day in the wood shop with my kids, doing something that brings me joy, and i ended up with a frame that is truly custom to my hand and shooting style.

I want to apologize to the community if i stirred the pot too much, but the obvious does generally rise to the top. We are all copying one another to one degree or another, regardless whether or not we are aware of it. Should we stop? Absolutely not!!


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

One thing that we all need to remember is that virtually everything that can be patented on a slingshot already is. Copyright does not apply to 'look and/or feel', as Apple found out years ago. Ford, AC and Carrol Shelby learned that near-exact copies of the Cobra couldn't be legally stopped. You can register a trademark, you can patent a new way of doing things or building something, and you can hold copyright on a book of instructions, but preventing others from making copies of a slingshot (or car) design is just not possible.

That said, I would never attempt to duplicate a design that the creator had asked me not to, but someone else might. My advice to those who will is to keep it to yourself, don't bring it here. It could start trouble. This is a good forum, with lots of good people willing to share information. Please, let's keep it that way.


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## Darb (Sep 14, 2010)

Bill Hays said:


> below is a design that's VERY similar to your newly made one that I posted up for free consumption, some time ago.


Just an observation - similarities are not always the result of copying ... sometimes it's just parallel development, with different people coming up with similar solutions/approaches to similar problems. When it comes right down to it, there's only so many ways that a sling grip can be designed for a human hand.

I myself have never made a slingshot, but if I were to give it a whirl, there's a high degree of likelyhood that it would bear some passing resemblance to some existing designs ... even though I made little or no conscious effort to replicate someone else's work.

EDIT: whoops, forgot to read page 2 of this thead ... several people already made pretty much the same point.


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## jmplsnt (Jan 1, 2010)

As long as there are no hard and fast rules this battle (or should I say prattle?) shall continue, along with this forum's slow cancerous death from within. How about some absolute rules for posters as to be honest I am about to pack it in.

Bill Hays has it right in a lot of ways and has my respect and admiration.

This sad issue is going to continue until either the forum collapses or someone takes aggressive command and puts this ship on course. "Iceberg dead ahead, anybody?


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## Darb (Sep 14, 2010)

jmplsnt said:


> As long as there are no hard and fast rules this battle (or should I say prattle?) shall continue, along with this forum's slow cancerous death from within. How about some absolute rules for posters as to be honest I am about to pack it in.
> 
> Bill Hays has it right in a lot of ways and has my respect and admiration.
> 
> This sad issue is going to continue until either the forum collapses or someone takes aggressive command and puts this ship on course. "Iceberg dead ahead, anybody?


I'm new to this hobby, and to this forum, but I've yet to see any signs of a forum in it's death throes. Quite the opposite ... I see a site with increasing traffic, and a regular stream of enthusiastic newcomers. It's a common mistake to confuse one's own decreasing interest/involvement in a given site with the imagined impending demise of said site.

As for this thread in particular, what I'm seeing is a reasonably healthy debate in which the participants (of varying degrees of history/experience with the subject matter) are explaining, exploring, and evolving their mutual understanding and positions on the topic at hand. That is a normal process in virtually all online communities for just about any topic of mutual importance to those involved. To refer to it as "mere prattle" is a bit ungenerous. The goal of any online community should always be to find common ground, and indulge in shared passions and zest for life.

That said, I think I'll bow out of this topic ... I'm neither a vendor here, nor a forum staffer, nor even someone with a fiscal stake in the site, so I don't have much else to add on this thread.


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## mxred91 (Aug 8, 2010)

Beautiful workmanship! The rivets add to the cool factor.


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