# Accuracy - The red herring



## Ordie69 (Aug 25, 2011)

Hello everyone,

I have a question but I fear that it might ruffle some feathers. It is not intended as a slight on any personal preference so please don't take it that way.

I have been doing a lot of reading about various slingshot systems from types of frames, bands, pouches, and ammunition. For the most part the information is fairly standard. The one area that I am questioning in some of these reviews is the claim that X slingshot is more accurate than Y sling shot.

So I can see if I even understand the system let me say what I "think." The frame simply holds the types of bands you want to use. The bands provide the energy to propel the projectile. The pouch is used to grip during the draw and hold the projectile up to the point of launch.

While I can see that a frame might be more comfortable, I do not believe that one is inherently more accurate than any other because from my perspective, it is the shooter that is either accurate or not. The bands, while providing a wide range of power only have one real function; to return to its natural state upon release. The pouch, I can see having an effect on accuracy depending on the placement of the projectile. From all of the various styles of slingshots I have seen on this site, from naturals to machined contraptions that could hit the moon, and even fork-less slings , I have to believe that the shooter is the primary factor for accuracy.

I do not think that using "accuracy" as a means test for a slingshot is an honest approach. Comfort, size, reliability (fairly subjective), cost, availability, and personal preference would be a more helpful, if not more honest approach in my opinion. Is there something that I am missing?

By all means, let me know if I am way off base here.


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## flippinout (Jul 16, 2010)

A slingshot can be more inherently accurate if it provides the shooter the ability to shoot it consistently. A frame that allows the shooter to repeat the way it is held will help make that frame more "accurate"- which is a misnomer. A frame that is held in a consistent manner manner from shot to shot leads to repeatability from shot to shot. That consistent repeatability leads to accuracy.

Yes, accuracy is all in the shooter, most especially his/her release. However, a slingshot that allows a given shooter to repeat the way the frame is held, combined with a smooth and consistent release can lead some to make statements that one slingshot is more accurate than another. I feel that a slingshot that is easy to shoot the same way over and over is a more "accurate" slingshot for me.

I agree that the term "accuracy" and the assumption that it lies within any given slingshot is incorrect. However, there are some slingshots that create the circumstance to improve the accuracy of any given shooter through consistent and repeatable hand placement upon the frame.

Ultimately, it is the indian and not the arrow!


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## rubberpower (Aug 16, 2011)

That is why you have to search to find one that fits you or you are comfortable shooting.


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## Northerner (Nov 9, 2010)

Yup, it's the *shooter* who is accurate... not the device that he or she holds. It is very possible for one person to shoot a certain frame very accurately but another person may struggle with the same frame. Dgui has become very accurate with a very simple frame design. The PFS works for him. Other shooters may be more accurate with an ergo frame of specific dimensions.

I have been on a mission to find the frame that complements my ability and ergonomics the best. I started with a TruMark FS-1 using hammer grip. Then I moved to traditional boardcuts. Then to thumb-brace ergos. I'm now tinkering with "pinch grip" ergos and gangsta style. These are the frames with a notch for your index finger and thumb. I found a fork width and frame length that seems about right for me. Now I'm working on the width between the thumb and index finger. Too wide or too narrow are uncomfortable. Too much thumb hook irritates my thumb tendon/knuckle. I can shoot okay with many frames but my consistency is highest with a comfortable frame that gives a repeatable hold. I have noticed an improvement in my accuracy as I tweak designs to fit me better.

Enjoy the quest for the frame that perfectly matches your ergonomics and shooting style.

Cheers,
Northerner


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## bj000 (Jul 21, 2011)

i agree.. the shooter does the mental calculations and adjusts his form accordingly. I am no expert by any means, but i trust myself and I have been very successful in target shooting.. it takes a couple shots to get the hang of it, then i can pretty much hit what i want to hit everytime. I jumped right into instinctive shooting rather than trying to aim , because i find that if i trust myself, and not second guess, i am able to hit consistently.

again, i am a newb, but my trial and error skills are something to be reckoned with


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## Northerner (Nov 9, 2010)

FWIW, here is the frame that has been evolving to fit my style, my hand shape and my preference. It started as a TTF design with more width. Then I made the same frame contour with OTT tips. Then I reduced the pinch width from 3.85" to 3.25". Then I removed the thumb and finger hooks to give straighter sides to hold. So far, this current style seems to help my accuracy. No more uncomfortable hand stretch and no more thumb irritation. Possibly, I will stumble upon another design or tweak this one even further.

Other shooters may experience a decrease in consistency with the design that I currently prefer.

I guess it's like buying a shotgun. Some stocks feel too long or too short. Some are too fat or too thin at the comb. Finding a gun that fits definitely helps with hitting more clays.

Cheers,
Northerner


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

You pick what works for you.


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## Hit and run (May 14, 2011)

A certain frame _can_ be more accurate than another.
Lets say you use a reference point on the slingshot for aiming. Then the slingshot that has one (or more) point(s) on the slingshot that can be used as reference point is more accurate compared to a frame where the reference point hovers a few centimeters above the frame, or where part of the slingshot obstructs the view of the target.
This has to do with how well we humans are at estimating distances. (you could compare it to a scoped rifle, one with x-hairs, and one without)


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## Ordie69 (Aug 25, 2011)

Hit and run said:


> A certain frame _can_ be more accurate than another.
> Lets say you use a reference point on the slingshot for aiming. Then the slingshot that has one (or more) point(s) on the slingshot that can be used as reference point is more accurate compared to a frame where the reference point hovers a few centimeters above the frame, or where part of the slingshot obstructs the view of the target.
> This has to do with how well we humans are at estimating distances. (you could compare it to a scoped rifle, one with x-hairs, and one without)


Thanks for the response, but what you have described could be attributed to any slingshot frame. Using a reference point is a part of any shooting sport. I still do not believe that one frame is inherently more accurate than any other. Nice signature btw


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Well the rifle only shoots bullets... so all rifles are capable of the same accuracy when used by an expert marksman?

Of course not.

A slingshot is simply a frame for holding the bands and pouch, true.... but some frames will allow you to be more consistent, more confident and therefore more accurate. I know this for a certainty, with the same bandset transferred from one slingshot to another I will be much more accurate with some than with others.


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## Ordie69 (Aug 25, 2011)

Bill Hays said:


> Well the rifle only shoots bullets... so all rifles are capable of the same accuracy when used by an expert marksman?
> 
> Of course not.
> 
> A slingshot is simply a frame for holding the bands and pouch, true.... but some frames will allow you to be more consistent, more confident and therefore more accurate. I know this for a certainty, with the same bandset transferred from one slingshot to another I will be much more accurate with some than with others.


Bill, I understand what you are saying but isn't that the marksman and not the tool? I spent 23 years in the military as a master armorer and have had the privilege of shooting more weapon systems than any man has a right to. I consider myself a qualified marksman both because I have qualified as such on various weapons systems and like just about everyone on this forum, I just love shooting. That being said, it isn't the weapon but my own comfort level with the weapon that makes a difference. Just because I can shoot one weapon system better than another, does not make that weapons system more accurate. It simply means that I am more comfortable with that system. Where I can excel at with a weapon, another might find it completely unsatisfactory. My original post was simply to get opinions on whether using the attribute accuracy for various slingshots was an honest approach to the reviews I have been seeing. Just by the replies to this thread I can see there is an equal amount of personal preference when it comes to slingshots and that is the answer I was looking for. Thank you all for your time and replies.


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## NaturalFork (Jan 21, 2010)

This thread .... AGAIN.


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## Ordie69 (Aug 25, 2011)

NaturalFork said:


> This thread .... AGAIN.


Forgive me for breaking some taboo. I didn't know there were topics that were out of bounds in this group. Of course i didn't mean any disrespect as I also said in my original post and I will refrain from asking questions in the future.


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## harpersgrace (Jan 28, 2010)

Well as usual you'll get as many answers as there are members, and since everyone has a different style, different ammo, and different reason for shooting there is no perfect or most accurate slingshot for everyone....I personally shoot a rifle much better without a scope, and while I know Mr Hays's slingshots are top notch I doubt I could hit the broad side of a barn with one because they aren't my style and I would have no desire to change...but in his or someone else's hands they are like magic.. it really comes down to finding that perfect match between shooter and his equipment, whether it's a natural or high-tech space-age fork.


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## kobe23 (Jun 28, 2010)

Ordie69 said:


> Well the rifle only shoots bullets... so all rifles are capable of the same accuracy when used by an expert marksman?
> 
> Of course not.
> 
> A slingshot is simply a frame for holding the bands and pouch, true.... but some frames will allow you to be more consistent, more confident and therefore more accurate. I know this for a certainty, with the same bandset transferred from one slingshot to another I will be much more accurate with some than with others.


Bill, I understand what you are saying but isn't that the marksman and not the tool? I spent 23 years in the military as a master armorer and have had the privilege of shooting more weapon systems than any man has a right to. I consider myself a qualified marksman both because I have qualified as such on various weapons systems and like just about everyone on this forum, I just love shooting. That being said, it isn't the weapon but my own comfort level with the weapon that makes a difference. Just because I can shoot one weapon system better than another, does not make that weapons system more accurate. It simply means that I am more comfortable with that system. Where I can excel at with a weapon, another might find it completely unsatisfactory. My original post was simply to get opinions on whether using the attribute accuracy for various slingshots was an honest approach to the reviews I have been seeing. Just by the replies to this thread I can see there is an equal amount of personal preference when it comes to slingshots and that is the answer I was looking for. Thank you all for your time and replies.








[/quote]

I would say what Bill meant was the uncertainty of the rifle/slingshot. There is always a gap for uncertianty and it is up to the designer and manufacturer to reduce it to a minimum. Lets say(example) compare a factory tuned police pistol have an uncertainty of radius +- 20mm at 20m and a costom tunel pistol with an uncertainty of radius +- 10mm at 20m. A consistent shooter could almost always hit a circle of radius 20mm with the custom pistol but might miss with the factory tuned pistol. This is the place where the 'fine-tune' of the pistol plays it's role. However marksmanship still plays an important role in shot placing.


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## Ordie69 (Aug 25, 2011)

kobe23 said:


> I would say what Bill meant was the uncertainty of the rifle/slingshot. There is always a gap for uncertianty and it is up to the designer and manufacturer to reduce it to a minimum. Lets say(example) compare a factory tuned police pistol have an uncertainty of radius +- 20mm at 20m and a costom tunel pistol with an uncertainty of radius +- 10mm at 20m. A consistent shooter could almost always hit a circle of radius 20mm with the custom pistol but might miss with the factory tuned pistol. This is the place where the 'fine-tune' of the pistol plays it's role. However marksmanship still plays an important role in shot placing.


Kobe23,

I understood what Bill was saying, but thanks for the reply. My original position, was:

_I do not think that using "accuracy" as a means test for a slingshot is an honest approach. Comfort, size, reliability (fairly subjective), cost, availability, and personal preference would be a more helpful, if not more honest approach in my opinion._

And from the responses, I have received, I still believe this to be the case. The bottom line, I think, is that a slingshot accuracy is like any other weapon. Totally based on the shooter and not the frame. Certainly a shooter may find a frame more to his/her liking, but that in itself does not make that frame universally more accurate. I have already offended on person with this question, which was not intended, so I will just consider this topic done from my perspective. Thank you all for your responses and opinions.


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## NaturalFork (Jan 21, 2010)

Ordie69 said:


> This thread .... AGAIN.


Forgive me for breaking some taboo. I didn't know there were topics that were out of bounds in this group. Of course i didn't mean any disrespect as I also said in my original post and I will refrain from asking questions in the future.
[/quote]

No .. not out of bounds. I love discussing this stuff! It just seemed that this topic has cropped up a few times this year. No biggy! it is a great topic.


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## orcrender (Sep 11, 2010)

I once watched an air rifle fired from a rest at 10 meters it made a hole .179 inch in diameter with 5 shots. When the buyer tried the same distance with the same pellets his groups never came close. After he got it sighted in .4 of an inch was his best. This took place at Air Rifle Headquaters in Grantsville WV. So a weapon and ammo can be designed and built to be accurate, but in the field it is the hands of the shooter.


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## Northerner (Nov 9, 2010)

Perhaps everyone is correct and the answers can all be joined together.









1 - It's the shooter that is accurate, not the slingshot.
2 - A specific shooter may be more accurate with a certain frame.
3 - Not all shooters will enjoy their top accuracy with the same frame.
4 - There are certain features in a slingshot that can help many, but not all, shooters to achieve improved accuracy.
5 - Like in all sports, there will be elite shooters who will perform well with almost any equipment/frame.
6 - As dgui says "You pick what works for you."

Cheers,
Northerner


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## strikewzen (Jun 18, 2010)

hello there Mr. O.

always nice to see your posts these days, hope you find this forum helpful so far










on this forum as we are only end users, political correctness or scientific data are usually not our primary concern

if every sentence said has to be 100% correct, then i suspect most people would not ever post anything

i agree with everything you've said, and also agree with everyone else here, as opinions are not mutually exclusive and must be viewed as a whole, collectively referred to as market opinion.

hope everyone has a good time


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## hotchi witchi (Aug 12, 2011)

Apart from natural ability there are other physical factors which help with accuracy. I spoke in an earlier post of multiple narrow bands. In addition to these the pouch size must be matched to the ball/rock size. The ball/rock size must be matched to the pull weight used. When all is in balance better accuracy is possible. To this end I only use a single fork made to fit me. I use a method of quick release bands in order to change bands but not the fork as I need to shoot different weight ball/rock weights. In this way the fork is an extension of me and all is in balance. Lastly if you are tired or fatigued you will not shoot well. Good luck


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Slingshots by themselves aren't accurate, but some slingshotsare more accurate than others for individual shooters.
Just a personal anecdote: I went and hung out with Jim Harris (multi-time tournament champ and owner of Performance Catapults, for those who don't know him) and shot some with him. I was using my Bill Hays SEAL Hunter and Jim was using his EPS, like he always does. Now Jim shoots the lights out with his EPS and even though it's a great slingshot and very nice to hold and shoot I can't seem to get a handle on the one I have. The SEAL is far and away my most accurate shooter but after holding and it and checking it out Jim was pretty sure he wouldn't do any good with it. He didn't get a chance to shoot it because we hold the slingshot in different hands and the SEAL is not ambidextrious but he's probably right since the SEAL is much taller and wider than his prefered sling.
In fact I can pretty much shoot anything that is about 4"-4.5" across the forks but I'm pretty hopeless with smaller slingshots.
So anyway, to advertise a slingshot as "accurate" is probably not ummm... accurate, but one can certainly be well designed.


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## THWACK! (Nov 25, 2010)

I contend that "X" IS better than "Y"!

(That's "why" they put the "X" AHEAD of the "Y". Obsviously, it's the LEADER of the pack.)

Shoot, we all know that! : )


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