# **** YOU ACCURSED SLINGSHOTS



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

As the topic says.....Damned be SLINGSHOTS and bands and tubes. I am struggling for around 3 days now, managing to get good results in the morning, only to shoot consistently to the right in the afternoon. 
Today I tried to address the issue. I tried and tried and tried. At long last I found my horizontal center, only to loose my elevation. I was about to scream. Then I tried some more, without changing my anchor point, as I knew that it worked before, and it was not at fault.
I tried and tried and tried again, changing body position slightly, anchor point slightly, to no avail. My fingers ached as much as my brain. And then I thought, what the heck, let's just change the bands, which were at 450% elongation, and just do my usual thing, 500%. 
Then....I no longer had to give any thought to anchor point or body position, just shoot as always, and just got the target as normal....DAMN YOU BANDS.
So, what gives? Is this small difference in elongation so important? I just wanted to try for somewhat more band life, and I almost ended up in a psychiatric clinic. And what's worse, I am still not quite sure if that was the culprit. 
Guys, bring on your ideas before I end up mad.


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## Ibojoe (Mar 13, 2016)

Sometimes the smallest things make the biggest difference. For me a lower draw weight means I need a super clean release. Don't stress so much brother. Have fun!!! Some days when your shootn badly you just need to get a bigger target. I can't stress this enough: Have fun!!


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Don't worry mate, I am having fun, and lots of it! All the frustration I consider part of the fun! 
When I am in a "shoot to the right mood", it doesn't matter the size of target. Right now I am in the "God of slingshot mood", I shoot from 16m with confidence. That's why it puzzles me. Maybe I didn't install the bands perfectly aligned? Is it the passive length at fault? I really don't know exactly. I do know for sure that draw weight doesn't have an effect on this, but the rest is a mystery. (I love puzzles)


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## rosco (Jan 10, 2012)

Try fifty shots on a 3cm spinner from 10 m and no clean hit. I’m still staring out the window, rocking back and forth.....


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Lol Rosco, I read about it in the other thread. Well, it can happen. I shot 15 shots before it started raining today, at a 4cm target, went 5 hits out of 6, and the next 9 were misses. Close misses, but misses still. I think the problem is changing the bands often. Maybe you do the same mistake?


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## Buckskin Dave (Apr 4, 2018)

Ibojoe said:


> Some days when your shootn badly you just need to get a bigger target. I can't stress this enough:


 :rofl: :rofl: Classic! That's some sig line material right there.

I'm still laughing but aint it the truth. I have never hit a golf ball in my life but I have always heard how frustrating it can be and it makes golfers nuts. Slingshot shooting can be like that. Some days your the 3/8 steel, some days your the can.


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## Buckskin Dave (Apr 4, 2018)

skropi said:


> Lol Rosco, I read about it in the other thread. Well, it can happen. I shot 15 shots before it started raining today, at a 4cm target, went 5 hits out of 6, and the next 9 were misses. Close misses, but misses still. I think the problem is changing the bands often. Maybe you do the same mistake?


Well, you asked Rosco not me and I to am interested in his thoughts on it. But my opinion is that yes, switching bands frequently is a problem. Stick with one band set and one type ammo for a while till you feel like your consistent with it. Then it's fine and good to use something else for a while. But if you change bands or ammo to often your brain never gets wired in on that combinations trajectories and points of impact. .


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

I am sure that the reasons for bad shooting can be found though. It's illogical to shoot well, change bands or go to sleep, and then shooting like crap. Today was spent figuring this out, I am still not sure what causes it, and always missing to the right. But with a new band set, and a subtly corrected anchor point, I was shooting from 15m with consistency, before this cursed rain came and ruined my Sunday. Sunday it ain't, more like Rainday for crying out loud. This is Athens, southern Greece, we get NO rain here, you hear me?!?!


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Dave, do you think it's possible I didn't install the previous band set perfectly aligned? Or that the elongation % plays some role in all of this?


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Perfect band alignment is unnecessary. If you've ever shot a bandset until one side was torn and the other side was still intact then you know. It seems like the last shot before a bandset breaks is always a hit 
Slingshot shooting is very much a mental exercise. You aim with your mind, no matter what you're seeing with your eyes. If you're focusing on some part of the frame to "aim" then you're missing most of the information you need.
The direction of the ammo depends on the release, not lining up a point on your frame. That's why you "speed bump" the pouch to keep from hitting your hand when you shoot pfs. You have to point the ammo at your target, visualize the line between the two, and adjust as necessary to make the two line up. 
Since this whole process is mental, clouding your mind with thoughts like "oh No! I missed! I suck at shooting!" is completely counter productive. If you miss, use the information from the miss and correct it. It's a long process to get to where you can reliably hit whatever you want from any reasonable distance and there's no slingshot or bandset or ammo that's going to get you there. 
Training with one setup, any setup, will cut down on variables and speed up the process. 
Most of all, focus on the current shot. The last one is gone and you can't get it back. The next one won't happen until after the current one is done. There is no reason to think about any shot other than the one you're shooting, to do so only clouds focus.If you hit with this shot, be happy. If you miss, be happy for the opportunity to learn.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

I watched a short video on face book from Big Dan and he gave a reason for shooting consistently to the left or to the right. I can't recall what those reasons he gave were. I have tried to locate that video again without luck. I consistently shoot to the left. Yes, I understand your frustration.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

That why I shoot 1 tube type at a certain length and usually just an SPS. Eliminate the variables. People that constantly change bands and cuts and slingshots don't know if its them or what their shooting is the problem. Bands and tubes can be finicky. I've had one set of 20/40s shoot perfect and another shoot like crap. But because I shoot the same thing all the time I know it's the bands are the problem and not something else. Last batch of 20/40s I cut my normal length pulled like 17/45s had to cut longer and then they shot fine. I think once you become really proficient at shooting and know your abilities like a Bill Hays, Nathan Masters, Treefork you can shoot anything well. But while your learning reduce the variables as much as possible. When I started shooting rifle and pistol competitions 30 years ago I had an Olympic shooter tell me buy the best equipment the best ammo the best of everything then the only problem with your shooting can be you. Eliminate the variables.

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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

M.J, I am never negative in the sense of thinking that I suck. I know definitely that I don't suck. I am not as good as othes here, but when my shooting works, I am decently accurate from 15m. So, no negativity, but frustration yes. When I shoot 200 shots, hit with 50, and all the misses are really really close, I know I am on the right path, and then, after a few hours, all shots going extremely to the right.... But yeah, your words, along with what the others also said, confirm one thing, it's my fault, so more thoughtful practice is required  
Thank you all guys for chiming in. Oh, and if you find Dan's video, link it please


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

LOL. If 500% is your thing - and you want 450 - step it down in small increments? Or stick to 500. I suspect its a bigger change than you think (esp. if you regularly only shoot the same setup most of the time).


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## 3danman (Mar 29, 2012)

Normally the difference in elongation would change the power output, which can affect accuracy, but I'm inclined to think that when you adjusted the bands, you made them more even. Uneven bands are more likely to cause a left or right shift in accuracy as opposed to differing elongation ratios. I always try to double and triple check my measurements, like the post canh8r made earlier.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Guys do you know what troubles me the most? When I changed the bands and started shooting well again, I tried to replicate my shooting to the right, so as to pinpoint the mistake. It was almost impossible to shoot to the right, everything went dead center. After a lot of frustration, failing to shoot like crap, I managed to shoot slightly to the right by having my head a bit more upright. When I tried the opposite, to shoot well again, I did change head position with no good results. 
That is the reason I am so troubled....


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## Alfred E.M. (Jul 5, 2014)

Guys, bring on your ideas before I end up mad.

*Too late, you're obviously a certifiable nut job and when they find you, your days will be spent babbling and drooling in a straight jacket.*

*Consider this - you're not a static machine and each day is different. In the last 24 hours our planet has traveled 750,0000 miles (at 67,000 mph) in its elliptical orbit and tomorrow will be the same - change is the only constant. *

*Also, you might want to slightly increase your 'fun' medication. *


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

That's the thing Alfred, all this is what makes it fun for me, the challenge!!!


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## raventree78 (Apr 20, 2016)

The video from Dan Ambrosius that the others have referenced is:


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Link doesn't work. Is it the video where he shoots at a piece of paper with two vertical lines drawn? What I got from that video was that maybe underpowered bands cause shots to veer right (as I hold the frame with my left hand, I reverse what Dan says). That could explain the elongation % theory of mine.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

And now the link works


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## Buckskin Dave (Apr 4, 2018)

skropi said:


> Dave, do you think it's possible I didn't install the previous band set perfectly aligned? Or that the elongation % plays some role in all of this?


Skropi, I can add nothing to what MJ said. He is working on a level I cant touch on my best day's so when he gives advice, well, do what most of us do and take advantage of his suggestions.

And I do understand how you can be ready to lose it but still having fun. Your intensity is probably one of your greatest strengths. So I get it when you say you ARE having fun. And besides that its fun for the rest of us to watch your cheese slowly slipping off your cracker. :looney:


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## rosco (Jan 10, 2012)

Got some ss gold in these comments skropi. I'm tagging this thread!

My problem yesterday was me, my beard and I. I put on an extended band set on a new frame to try floating anchor. Got this hair suit on my face and the pouch and my self consciousness as it whips through a few follicles put the mockers on my session. A very cruel session.

Today I have a new band set on a different frame that I shall shoot with my normal fixed anchor in the corner of my mouth. I shall shoot this consistently and I shall remain resolutely happy, come what may.

????????????


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## MakoPat (Mar 12, 2018)

I had a similar off day except I changed nothing. So sometimes "you eat the bear and, some times the bear eats you." Meaning tomorrow I get to shoot again. 
I get it, friend... you loves it and it is still a little bit of a mystery to learn about.
But getting a big ole piece of paper or poster board ia a fun way to track your misses or to line in new frames, bands, etc...


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

I can't accept a "day off". If someone's technique is solid, and if he has the shooting experience, then such big variations in shooting should be imppssible. Having a bad day I can understand, but not to the point of missing the catch box. 
Today I made my morning coffee and set out to shoot. Well, first shot to the right. I was about to scream in agony and madness, but I remembered two things. Mj's advice, and my findings about this phenomenon. I immediately discarded the bands as being a reason, as I haven't changed them from yesterday. So I pondered for 10 seconds, remembered what I did exactly yesterday, drew, shot, and went a bit low. This happened yesterday too, the low shots. Pondered for 10 more seconds, I knew what I had to do, drew, shot, dead center.
All the previous day's frustration was over in 3 shots today, instead in 100. 
That brings me to the gist of the matter. When you think you are becoming good, you really become much much worse. When you think that your practice has paid off, you really need to practice 100x more, when you think that you've got the basics down at least, nope, you haven't, you have barely scratched the surface. 
Now that I know all that, I am confident that there will be no more frustration, knowledge kills frustration.
Thank you all for your advice guys. It was a simple matter of exact anchor point/head position/frame position, which I didn't pay enough attention to, because I became overconfident.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

I was thinking - left field. Maybe you have an issue with your shooting in the first instance? You are just compensating when using the 500% and the longer bands are just less forgiving of what this fault is... Though there have been a few times guys do this after many months or years of shooting well. They have a problem then start over thinking and everything goes wrong. A day or two off is actually not bad advice - it gives your brain time to reset. But if thats off the cards go back to what was working.


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## Alfred E.M. (Jul 5, 2014)

You aim with your mind, no matter what you're seeing with your eyes.

The direction of the ammo depends on the release, not lining up a point on your frame.

You have to point the ammo at your target, visualize the line between the two, and adjust as necessary to make the two line up.

*MJ's generous instructions re this 'long process' are the best I've heard, so simple that it's usually overlooked, overthought.*

*It's the core of what needs to be mastered.*


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

I'd agree with that. Though with smaller frames (especially fiddly ones) errors are exaggerated - Its only with lighter bands that it seems inconsistent - think they slip slightly during the draw. Obviously attaching on the ring etc. would alleviate this but as I am often changing the setup its not a practical solution. Flat bands and a plug kit would also work.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Well, the problem in my case was overconfidence, and as a result not paying attention to the basics. I did follow MJ's advice, and paid more attention to the pouche's position with excellent results.
I think the usual advice, practice practice practice, is wrong. The correct advice should be, practice practice practice practice practice practice practice, and when you get tired repeat once more.


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## BushpotChef (Oct 7, 2017)

M.J said:


> Perfect band alignment is unnecessary. If you've ever shot a bandset until one side was torn and the other side was still intact then you know. It seems like the last shot before a bandset breaks is always a hit
> Slingshot shooting is very much a mental exercise. You aim with your mind, no matter what you're seeing with your eyes. If you're focusing on some part of the frame to "aim" then you're missing most of the information you need.
> The direction of the ammo depends on the release, not lining up a point on your frame. That's why you "speed bump" the pouch to keep from hitting your hand when you shoot pfs. You have to point the ammo at your target, visualize the line between the two, and adjust as necessary to make the two line up.
> Since this whole process is mental, clouding your mind with thoughts like "oh No! I missed! I suck at shooting!" is completely counter productive. If you miss, use the information from the miss and correct it. It's a long process to get to where you can reliably hit whatever you want from any reasonable distance and there's no slingshot or bandset or ammo that's going to get you there.
> ...


Best advice submittwd so far lol.

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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Yep, MJ really hit the nail in the head. Few words, containing the gist of the totality of slingshot shooting.
By the way, I am still undecided wether to call them slingshots or catapults. I don't want to disappoint either my British, or my American brethren


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

After all this, I feel much better, and I shoot better too. Just one question, when in shooting stance, do you try and keep your elbow on the frame holding arm, as straight as possible? Personally that was one of my mistakes, it wasn't very straight. Now with a more straight stance, I find I shoot MUCH better.


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## bigdh2000 (Feb 9, 2015)

Everything about slingshots is what works for you. No two of us are the same. We can all present ideas, but in the end you have to find what works for you.

I shoot a lot like MJ stated. Best way I can describe it would be visualizing your ammo hitting the target or project the flight path of the ammo in your head. My problem is obtaining the focus required.


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## Ibojoe (Mar 13, 2016)

Sound advise from sound shooters. I really enjoyed this. Thanks


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

skropi said:


> I can't accept a "day off". If someone's technique is solid, and if he has the shooting experience, then such big variations in shooting should be imppssible. Having a bad day I can understand, but not to the point of missing the catch box.
> Today I made my morning coffee and set out to shoot. Well, first shot to the right. I was about to scream in agony and madness, but I remembered two things. Mj's advice, and my findings about this phenomenon. I immediately discarded the bands as being a reason, as I haven't changed them from yesterday. So I pondered for 10 seconds, remembered what I did exactly yesterday, drew, shot, and went a bit low. This happened yesterday too, the low shots. Pondered for 10 more seconds, I knew what I had to do, drew, shot, dead center.
> All the previous day's frustration was over in 3 shots today, instead in 100.
> That brings me to the gist of the matter. When you think you are becoming good, you really become much much worse. When you think that your practice has paid off, you really need to practice 100x more, when you think that you've got the basics down at least, nope, you haven't, you have barely scratched the surface.
> ...


More pondering, less screaming.
I think you're on the right track!


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## MakoPat (Mar 12, 2018)

If I am shooting off it is typically my release.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Practice proper technique. All the practice in the world is not going to help bad technique. Your just going to reinforce bad habits.

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## Jonesy22 (Feb 14, 2018)

Great info on this thread, thank you everyone!


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Just something that I thought. Is it possible that this discrepancy in accuracy, which is quite lessened now, is caused by fatigue? Right now I am shooting and ripping my targets, but it's morning, I am well rested etc, I don't pay much attention, just shoot on target. But when I am a bit tired, I have to pay much attention, even change my body position, just to shoot decently. So, do you think it's possible?


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Let me add that now I moved to 15m to keep things interesting. My biggest problem was overthinking things and overlooking what is just comfortable to me. I am happy, yes.


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## bigdh2000 (Feb 9, 2015)

Bit of both is more likely. The less I think, the better I shoot. Overthinking things is definitely a problem of mine.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

:yeahthat:


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## Viper010 (Apr 21, 2012)

Could fatigue be screwing up your release, perhaps?


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

I think that it is fatigue. Today I was shooting fine, and after the 2 hour mark I started missing, overthrowing etc...


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

OK, after 3 arduous days, shooting around 5 hours daily, I managed to pinpoint the problem. I tried everything, but at long last it was the thing I least expected to, the way I hold the pouch against my face. I can reproduce the problem exactly now, so it is solved. But I really don't understand how such a very slight difference, affects the shot so much. I also discovered that I shoot way too much rubber, but that's another thing.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

5 hrs a day?! Say what!?

You going to Italy or something?


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Lol nope Mat  I just don't like inconsistency  I don't mind not hitting the target all the time, as long as I know why I didn't hit. 
The problem with so much practice is that those cursed 9.5mm steel balls, really dig in the flesh  I am seriously thinking of going 10 or 11mm because of that. I have 20 11mm steel, and when I shoot it it is way more comfortable, like gripping butter. Haven't tried 10mm though.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

As you can see, 9.5mm is killing me. Do you think I could just lay the ammo on the middle knuckle instead of the meaty part of the finger?


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## Jonesy22 (Feb 14, 2018)

skropi said:


> As you can see, 9.5mm is killing me. Do you think I could just lay the ammo on the middle knuckle instead of the meaty part of the finger?


I have same problem from work (work at knife company). Not sure if have tried the warrior pouches but they cured this instantly for me. They offered the perfect grip while not feeling like I'm kneeling down on cement for 4 hours. Contact the turk if interested, stand up awesome guy to do business with. Just a thought to try maybe...good luck!


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

I will pass not because I don't think they are great, but because I like to make my own pouches so as to be self contained. I tried using the knuckle and it works. Next step will be to try some other leather.


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## Jonesy22 (Feb 14, 2018)

skropi said:


> I will pass not because I don't think they are great, but because I like to make my own pouches so as to be self contained. I tried using the knuckle and it works. Next step will be to try some other leather.


That is awesome, I would love to be more self contained like that! Maybe someday...glad you got the problem worked out though, I'll be trying the same thing here...


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## rosco (Jan 10, 2012)

I too got some warrior pouches off the Turk. Prompt service and a good communicator. The pouches are unusual, laminated and have a nice balance between feel and protection and may help alleviate your RSI Skropi.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

I thought long and hard about it, but I really can't figure out what RSI stands for


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## rosco (Jan 10, 2012)

Sorry Skropi. Thought our occupational health acronyms were universal - Repetitive Strain Injury.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Started a thread about ammo choice. Rosco I am really pondering the possibility of moving up from 9.5mm to either 10 or 11mm. I tried some 11mm and they feel nice to hold, not sure about 10mm. 11mm does need more rubber though.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

I really wonder when the day will come that won't bring something new to my shooting. Every day I find a new problem in my technique. I shot all day, and half an hour ago I noticed that my wrist and elbow in my drawing arm, form a huge angle, they aren't straight at all. I had no way to correct it while keeping my current anchor point.... Then I watched a video from Nathan, just copied him, and....voila, everything came together....for now. I just have to hold the catty in a slight upwards angle. 
Will the time come that I won't have to change everything every couple of days?


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

I remember when I got my first SPS this one.







I couldn't shoot it for beans. I was ready to throw the thing. But I Shot it with looped tubes and no other Slingshot for months. Finally I figured the looped tubes out. Now I'm more Accurate with An SPS and looped tubes than anything else. It will come to you.

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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Cjw, my problem is that I am not sure it was a mistake the way I was shooting before. I mean, does the elbow and wrist need to be as straight as possible? Was my occasional bad shooting due to not being straight? In the morning I will try the new way and I hope I find out.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

My elbow is never perfectly straight. It doesn't feel comfortable I've learned to adapt.

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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Hmmm. Another thing I noticed. With a straight elbow, I anchor at the corner of my mouth, the way I was shooting before, if anchored there I would shoot too high. With the old way I can't really get my anchor higher up if needed, while with the new, I twist 90° and it's easier to get the anchor up if I need to. I just don't know if the new way offers consistency yet.
I don't think it can get more confusing than that.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Hmmm. Another thing I noticed. With a straight elbow, I anchor at the corner of my mouth, the way I was shooting before, if anchored there I would shoot too high. With the old way I can't really get my anchor higher up if needed, while with the new, I twist 90° and it's easier to get the anchor up if I need to. I just don't know if the new way offers consistency yet.
I don't think it can get more confusing than that.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

I anchor to the top of my ear lobe. When I went to the corner of my mouth or cheek didn't shoot well.
I rotate the pouch to the right and my knuckle touches the top of my ear lobe so it's the same every time.

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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

I think hard face anchors mess up pouch alignment. 
If you look at the "top shooters" pretty much no-one anchors to the face. Most are drawing past their head. When you draw farther back you get a longer, more reliable "line" from the bands to help you get the ammo in alignment with the target.
It can be frustrating to practice but in the end I think a longer draw leads to better shooting.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

MJ, I don't know if it messes up pouch alignment, but for sure it messes something up. With a floating anchor I always found my horizontal center line, not so with a fixed one. So you may be right. I will dedicate the next day to two things, anchoring to corner of the mouth with a pouch twist and straighter right arm, and some floating anchor practice.
I got good results with my current way of shooting, doubled my percentage of successful shots, but I can't help feeling unsatisfied, so, a change is forthcoming.


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