# I wonder....



## Outlaw (Jan 16, 2014)

I wonder ...

I spent the last months some time trying to design my own slingshot. It's so much fun to make them and it would be fun to try to sell some on the forum.

But every time I designed something I see resemblance with slingshots that have already been made by other people and vendors. I often start with a blank piece of paper and make some sketches, sometimes using what nature offers like all kinds of shapes such as forks that grow in trees. I worked most of my life as graphic designer and be creative enough to design.

I mean, a slingshot that is reasonably easy to make and not too expensive, not to big just a handy model that also fits easily in the pocket and still looks attractive so that people want to buy and safe to shoot.

I think it can not. A slingshot is always the same Y shape sharp or round shaped with or without curve.

It's the same as example with a knife design eventually they all look alike, okay one with drop point blade or spear point blade, etc., or e.g. a rim of a car wheel it stays round and will never be square, a table a chair en so on.

I'm going crazy ... For example in the winter I made some scketches and had already made a template and a few days later I see here on the forum a slingshot passing by, called Cholita which fork was 99% identical to my fork or the other way around, only handle was different. I recently made a version of the chalice, and that's a pretty neutral design actually the same fork as you often see hanging in the trees, I only had a different handle made and guess what 2 days later I see someone started a topic about a slingshot made by a known vendor with almost the exact same handle as my design. Then I apply some other ideas on the same fork a slightly rounder or narrower, with finger grooves and it looks like another model again etc. So is it every time it remains a Y-shape what you do with them.

Last someone few some new slingshots on the forum, which he had bought, and I immediately thought of two models, almost identical to other vendors. I will not mention names, I do not want to start revolution here.

How can I design a slingshot without that resemblance with certain vendors here on the forum? Well, I think so it can not.

I see even with several vendors here on the forum similarity (some models excluded). Or I see parables by vendors who claim have their own design that have similarity with (Vintage) slingshots from the past.
Of course, there are exceptions as beautiful carvings from natural forks where you can show a lot of imagination.

So my question is basically what I'm doing wrong when i design a slingshot by myself that finally has some design similarities with other slingshots, that I want to sell? Without wanting to copy, intentionally or knowingly.


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## squirrel squasher (May 17, 2013)

Well nothing. I think that you can not reinvent the slingshot. They are all going to look similar.


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## Pebble Shooter (Mar 29, 2014)

You're not doing anything wrong in absolute terms: this is a patent and a copyright issue.

The way I see it, there is a significant difference between the functional technical design of any commercial item and the subsequent artistic input, if the basic functional purpose of that item is not altered by the latter in any way. I would assume that the original patent (if there ever was one) to the idea of using a Y-shaped instrument (slingshot shape) with rubber bands, tubes, or whatever was initially used to shoot rocks (or other projectiles) after the patented invention of vulcanized rubber by Charles Goodyear back in 1839, is no longer valid. This is a key issue.

Anyone is therefore fully entitled to design and make their own version of that Y-shape slingshot, irrespective of whether the grip and forks are large or thin, rounded or squared, and to sell their slingshots to others, even if it they look similar to other designs already on the market. Nobody can make any claims as to owning the original Y-design idea.

Patent infringements only become an issue when an innovative system i.e. one that did not previously exist in any technical form, is copied by others without consent of the patent holder - such as the rapid flat band attachment system developed by Saunders. Unlike patents, Artistic work is subject to copyright issues (like paintings, photographs and movies), but does not, as far as I know, have any legal bearing on the purely functional aspects of whatever item is concerned.

Therefore, even if your homemade designs look rather similar to existing designs from a functional technical point of view (a grip and forks...not much choice!), you have every right to market your "product" like the vendors, providing that your designs do not include any patented technical improvements that would require you to get permission from the patent holder to go ahead. Moreover, you would have to get permission to reproduce existing artistic styles to avoid copyright infringements.

If anything, the ultimate question will be whether you could cover the costs of raw materials and significant input in terms of labour while yielding a reasonable profit. A well-finished birch plywood slingshot takes me approximately 4 hours to complete with basic hand tools (OK, except for that electric jigsaw and drill -_- ). If I were to try to sell my slingshots (not my intention, I prefer to share my designs), I would seriously look at the injection moulding process or 3-D printers to churn out large numbers of slingshot frames within a short time.

Food for thought...


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## Outlaw (Jan 16, 2014)

Pebble Shooter said:


> You're not doing anything wrong in absolute terms: this is a patent and a copyright issue.
> 
> The way I see it, there is a significant difference between the functional technical design of any commercial item and the subsequent artistic input, if the basic functional purpose of that item is not altered by the latter in any way. I would assume that the original patent (if there ever was one) to the idea of using a Y-shaped instrument (slingshot shape) with rubber bands, tubes, or whatever was initially used to shoot rocks (or other projectiles) after the patented invention of vulcanized rubber by Charles Goodyear back in 1839, is no longer valid. This is a key issue.
> 
> ...


Wow thats a long anwere Thanks...

Yes its a difficult issue because invent a new slingshot is in my opinion almost impossible you always have to start with that simple Y. The only way to make a difference is to put youre own signature on it like customizing wit all kind of materials.

I have seen so much slingshots and studied a lot of them here and other forum and what i can find on google including old vintage slingshots of the past and lf you look good there are so much simular models and everybody claims it as his model exceptions exclude.

What i wrote every model slingshot growes in trees only without technical band attachements, wich some slingshots have.


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## harpersgrace (Jan 28, 2010)

There is a finite number of shapes that will fit in the human hand and serve the intended purpose, its only common sense to assume that slingshots will be similar. You can add all the bells and whistles you want but in the end you can only change the basic design so much before it stops being functional.


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

As far as I am concerned, La Cholita is Public Domain. If anyone wants to make exact copies and sell them, I would appreciate a mention that it is my design, but I sure as heck am not going to sue anyone for making a copy.


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## flipgun (Nov 14, 2012)

This may not make much sense, but "All dogs got four legs and look like dogs. But how many breeds have you seen?" Make something nice and don't over think it. Put your own spin on it and call it good. :iono:


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## Outlaw (Jan 16, 2014)

Henry in Panama said:


> As far as I am concerned, La Cholita is Public Domain. If anyone wants to make exact copies and sell them, I would appreciate a mention that it is my design, but I sure as heck am not going to sue anyone for making a copy.


You don't understandwhat i mean, i didnt copy it i make a design oly with another handle shape but only the fork looks by accident on youre fork the Cholita when i saw it after i make my design because a few days later a member had made youre cholita and I saw the photo's for the first time I hat never heart of that thing. But this is just ONE EXAMPLE i have it with many other slingshots to, and thats the problem why I start this discusion. I am a desent man and if I use someone's design I mention his name. Look around and a lot of slingshot models also made by vendors are look alikes only with other clothes on.


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## benzidrine (Oct 14, 2013)

Well I think it is a bit like knife handles at this point that all the basic things have been done. I can think of a lot of compound and leverage designs but at the raw level of a simple slingshot there isn't much left in my opinion.

Still every handmade slingshot has a unique character and every mass made slingshot has its reputation of quality to live up to. So there is still joy in the making of them.

The reality though is that even if you can't find a shape or design online someone somewhere has probably done something similar first, people have been making slingshots for too long all over the world for that to not be true. They are just too universal, I meet people all over the world from far flung corners and have never met someone that didn't know what a slingshot was.


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## August West (Jan 21, 2012)

There are already very accomplished and established makers selling their work as well cheapskates like me who think that slingshots are meant to be cut off a tree for free, which equals no market for new makers.

What I am saying is I think a new maker would have a hard time selling enough to pay for his tools and raw materials much less making any beer money. I am also super skeptical of any new designs that will shake the slingshot world to it's foundations. Even if someone does think of something fairly revolutionary, how many are interested in the hobby enough to pay a good price for it?

Not trying to be a Debbie downer just giving a little food for thought and opinions.


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## Hisownself (Feb 11, 2012)

Look at the automobile throughout history. In every period the cars are very similar to each other. In some respects, form follows function. All cars have 4 wheels, have to fit on the same roads, need lights in front and back, be so somewhat aerodynamic. There's not much room to be creative beyond what's already been done. Unless you are Jorge Sprage and take the slingshot far from it's roots!!!!

Styles in color, lamination, subtle changes in contours, changes in material, maybe some interesting cut-outs is about all that can be done without changing drastically the concept of the y shaped slingshot that fits in a pocket


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## Outlaw (Jan 16, 2014)

benzidrine said:


> Well I think it is a bit like knife handles at this point that all the basic things have been done. I can think of a lot of compound and leverage designs but at the raw level of a simple slingshot there isn't much left in my opinion.
> 
> Still every handmade slingshot has a unique character and every mass made slingshot has its reputation of quality to live up to. So there is still joy in the making of them.
> 
> The reality though is that even if you can't find a shape or design online someone somewhere has probably done something similar first, people have been making slingshots for too long all over the world for that to not be true. They are just too universal, I meet people all over the world from far flung corners and have never met someone that didn't know what a slingshot was.


Indeed the raw base of a slingshot where you have to start with, only the build up with all kind materials can make the different.

Okey i know there are some model slingshots wich are extrodanary different by shape but i call that more creative sculpteres then a good shooting and to handle slingshot in my opinion (Nevertheless, I have a tremendous respect for how beautiful some are made).

I have read a lot of topics the last months here, also the old one's with discusions and where some vendors with a age younger then me (maybe 10/20 years younger) claims to be the first one with slingshots (models and even claims laminated ones) they make.

Well when i wash a child they were even bourne and when they just were born, I all ready start making slingshots and little bows for my boys. So the problem is how can you say what is youre design because the slingshot is so old with a simple basic Y fork wich shape you give it...


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## Outlaw (Jan 16, 2014)

August West said:


> There are already very accomplished and established makers selling their work as well cheapskates like me who think that slingshots are meant to be cut off a tree for free, which equals no market for new makers.
> 
> What I am saying is I think a new maker would have a hard time selling enough to pay for his tools and raw materials much less making any beer money. I am also super skeptical of any new designs that will shake the slingshot world to it's foundations. Even if someone does think of something fairly revolutionary, how many are interested in the hobby enough to pay a good price for it?
> 
> Not trying to be a Debbie downer just giving a little food for thought and opinions.


Well tools i have anough  , and i know wood is expensive also some other materials you can by like micarta and G10 etc....
I know you don't gone be rich by this work but for me its a hobby and why not try to make some money witth youre hobby? You can making very difficult slingshots with many peaces of wood and laminations or you make a good save and nice looking one with a nice peace of wood. (less is often More).


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## Outlaw (Jan 16, 2014)

Hisownself said:


> Look at the automobile throughout history. In every period the cars are very similar to each other. In some respects, form follows function. All cars have 4 wheels, have to fit on the same roads, need lights in front and back, be so somewhat aerodynamic. There's not much room to be creative beyond what's already been done. Unless you are Jorge Sprage and take the slingshot far from it's roots!!!!
> 
> Styles in color, lamination, subtle changes in contours, changes in material, maybe some interesting cut-outs is about all that can be done without changing drastically the concept of the y shaped slingshot that fits in a pocket


Amen Brother!!


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## Individual (Nov 6, 2013)

I could come up with some designs for you.

The ones i recently made i have not found too many similarities to other templates.

I understand you want to make them yours, but we could together make a template that i wont upload and you can use and claim as your own?

Anyway, if you wanna go ahead shout me a PM, I can do as many designs as you want, and i dont ask anything in return


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## Outlaw (Jan 16, 2014)

This is also one of my reasons why I started this Topic&#8230;

Last march I I visit my sister and brother in law. He had a friend on visit that he knows from Bushcraften. We were just talking about slingshots and they asked me if I want to make one for them.

So I made three of these slingshots based on the Chalice one for my brother in law one for his friend and one for myself wich I stil have to finish. The two slingshots I maked for them wash a rush job because my brother in law and sister go for a long holliday to Norway and he wanted to shoot wit it there so I totally forget to make pictures of them, but they are simulair at the one I have to finsish for myself. They were very happy with the result an asked me why I don't going try to sell them. I think this is a very beautiful classical model what I can make with all kind of woods and other materials.

But then someone started this topic on 15th april, about a BCX slingshot he had seen on the internet. When I saw it I thought there we go again, the same handle as mine okay only the fork is different even light colored wood was used. Mine where made of a nice piece of ash thorn, 3 mm alluminium core and 2 black spacers&#8230; http://slingshotforum.com/topic/31475-dude-i-want-that/

I know they are not exactly the same, but there is some similarity. And thats what I mean, I have never seen that BCX slingshot before. You have to believe me. The first pic. is That BCX slingshot.


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## Outlaw (Jan 16, 2014)

Individual said:


> I could come up with some designs for you.
> 
> The ones i recently made i have not found too many similarities to other templates.
> 
> ...


Thanks for youre kind offer. But I don't want to make a Naturel slingshot. Can you do also. You make me curious


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## quarterinmynose (Jan 21, 2012)

Not to burst your bubble but pretty much this exact slingshot was done quite some time ago.

coming up with your own unique "Y" can indeed be very difficult. There are only so many things that really work well. But keep at it, and strive for your own style.


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## Outlaw (Jan 16, 2014)

quarterinmynose said:


> Not to burst your bubble but pretty much this exact slingshot was done quite some time ago.


I'm getting crazy... :screwy:

Never seen this one, the same handle as that BCX slingshot. Well this is what I mean and started this topic.


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## August West (Jan 21, 2012)

Nathan made both of those, he makes the slings for BCX.


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## Tentacle Toast (Jan 17, 2013)

Here's my half pence on the topic;

...as both an avid shooter & collector of slingshots, I can tell, by look or by "feel" the individual artist's variations/interpretations of, let's face it, a common platform. So common, in fact, that if anyone was to be entitled to a patent, it would have to be the very first tree that decided to shoot a branch off of it's main trunk. I know people get rather twisted about when they feel "their" design has been infringed upon, but unless someone is copying logos, the argument is moot. Do these people look at shrubs in their landscape with disdain because they're copying their trademark Y? Do they shout "Hey! That was MY idea!" when they reach a fork in the road? Frankly, I find it appalling when some of these guys start in with "oh, you stole that from my _____ model!"....no they didn't; they came to a similar conclusion as you did, but I'd bet a paycheck that to the end recipient, the difference would be night and day. Part of the problem too seems to be swollen heads. One will be met with some success, & seems to either feel threatened by newcomers, or that they're somehow owing of their success to the theft of their "original" design.

This saddens me, because from that first post, it would seem that there are at LEAST three gorgeous slings thDon't ever came to be out of fear of that potential confrontation. It's not like we're dealing with cutting edge pharmaceuticals or delivery systems here; similarities -sometimes very close- are bound to occur here. Your execution WILL set you apart.


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## ash (Apr 23, 2013)

Just keep designing and making. it never ends. Keep publishing your work so that you influence other people as much as they influence you.

There are plenty of new ideas yet to be discovered. If you think they're all been done, you should try harder. If you think the shape is all that matters, think of more dimensions. If you think you've made the perfect slingshot, give it to someone else to try and watch how they hold it and shoot it. You'll soon see that there are as many perfect designs as there are hands. What fits one person perfectly, will not fit another.

Keep designing. Each one will be in some way, slightly better than the last.


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## Outlaw (Jan 16, 2014)

August West said:


> Nathan made both of those, he makes the slings for BCX.


Yes but that is the problem for me I have never seen this before and that happens every time when I think to have somethinh new, and if I look to that blue one is that not also a Chalice designed by Dayhiker?


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## Outlaw (Jan 16, 2014)

Tentacle Toast said:


> Here's my half pence on the topic;
> 
> ...as both an avid shooter & collector of slingshots, I can tell, by look or by "feel" the individual artist's variations/interpretations of, let's face it, a common platform. So common, in fact, that if anyone was to be entitled to a patent, it would have to be the very first tree that decided to shoot a branch off of it's main trunk. I know people get rather twisted about when they feel "their" design has been infringed upon, but unless someone is copying logos, the argument is moot. Do these people look at shrubs in their landscape with disdain because they're copying their trademark Y? Do they shout "Hey! That was MY idea!" when they reach a fork in the road? Frankly, I find it appalling when some of these guys start in with "oh, you stole that from my _____ model!"....no they didn't; they came to a similar conclusion as you did, but I'd bet a paycheck that to the end recipient, the difference would be night and day. Part of the problem too seems to be swollen heads. One will be met with some success, & seems to either feel threatened by newcomers, or that they're somehow owing of their success to the theft of their "original" design.
> 
> This saddens me, because from that first post, it would seem that there are at LEAST three gorgeous slings thDon't ever came to be out of fear of that potential confrontation. It's not like we're dealing with cutting edge pharmaceuticals or delivery systems here; similarities -sometimes very close- are bound to occur here. Your execution WILL set you apart.


(Your execution WILL set you apart.) What do mean with this?????????

Sorry but what you wrote is going to far for me to understand, I ask my girlfriend in the evening if se can translate, (I hope see can).

I will again explain why I started this discussion. First, I do not want to copy someone's work and say it 's mine . If Iuse someone's design I mentioned his name neatly.

But what if I design something and think hey nice never seen. What am I doing wrong ? The example of the Chailice is simple, I only changed a little bit the handle on the left, and the rest is 95% of the Chalice . If I 'd been wanting to sell it , I had Dayhiker asked his permission.

The funny thing is, I made just in the same template two finger grooves and cut of the fork straihgt and the fork looks even more like BCX slingshot and many other slingshots. (If I have time I place a photo) I mean, you start with a bare skeleton Y whatever you do, a round fork, fork ellipse or square , with or without finger grooves small or large eventually arrive most slingshots all on the same down .

Except with the decoration of this, and how further gevromd to feel good in the hand. I've said it before every vendor here has also started on the same basic idea and even use other's peaple ideas . Use your eyes and take a good look around . And try to pick up the base without all the frills of any kind slingshot for it and you 'll see that I'm right. I will not mention names, I want to keep it clean.

Some exceptions, Natural slingshots are a good example because often you have other options in terms of creativity, as a boardcut or laminated version.

I already regret that I started this discussion it is carrying water to the sea.

My English is not so good, to speak and untherstand tough discussions here.


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## benzidrine (Oct 14, 2013)

Outlaw said:


> it is carrying water to the sea.


Just want to say that I love this expression, hadn't heard it before.


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## flipgun (Nov 14, 2012)

A lil' bit more from me.

"(Your execution WILL set you apart.) What do mean with this?????????"

I make shooters from the design of others. People can recognize the pattern as such, but they can also tell that Flipgun did this from my peculiarity's of finish, wood and type of work that I do. There are many others that when I see the picture I can say, " That looks like the work of..."

I guess you would have to say that is style.

Your English is gooder than mine.


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## Outlaw (Jan 16, 2014)

Picture 1 my slingshot I made (to be completed), with the template on top of the Chalice . You see it is actually 95% of a chalice with a small change to the left of the handle .
Photo 2 the multiplex template I adapted . Finger grooves and I have the top of the fork made straight horizontal . Now he suddenly looks more to that BCX slingshot . But it's still the same 95% Chalice .
Photo 3 I found this template from the SPS lay it on top of my plywood template and see, the fork is almost the same at the outside. Okey SPS is slightly wider at the inside but it is already almost identical . Only the handle is different.
Photo 4 if you see what nature offers us, its is a small step to come onto such a model slingshot. Even if you never have seen it never before every simple man or women with a litte bit skills can do that.
Photo 5 ( as picture 2 ) exactly the same slingshot only by the finger grooves and straight fork (at the top) he already seems different, as many other slingshots here .

So maybe I like with round shapes because of my age and that I love classical models slingshots . And you are so very quickly leads to the design of many other makers .

This is just one example. I could keep going but then I'm still working on Christmas on this subject and I can spent my time better.

For me it's the foundation of why I started this discussion.

It is basically the same as with arcs. Whether you're a Longbow, Recurve bow, Flatbow etc.. Laminated or of a natural piece of wood, they all look alike. Obviously a bow existed for many centuries and in many different ways and by different populations created in several ways. However, it continues to be a bow.

It's funny how few people actually respond to this discussion, and I see that this topic very much is read.


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## August West (Jan 21, 2012)

Outlaw said:


> August West said:
> 
> 
> > Nathan made both of those, he makes the slings for BCX.
> ...


Outlaw, I was just commenting on the pics of the flippinout model and the BCX model. I am in the same camp as Tentacle. I have never seen a model that I have thought was original enough to patent. Plus I only shoot naturals anyway. 

BTW looks like you make some killer slings, very nice.


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## Outlaw (Jan 16, 2014)

August West said:


> Outlaw said:
> 
> 
> > August West said:
> ...


Well thanks but I have no clue what Tentacle Tost means, I don't understand it what he wrote.


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## August West (Jan 21, 2012)

Tentacle is saying to make our slingshots and not worry about it.


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## Tentacle Toast (Jan 17, 2013)

...what I mean by "your execution" is how you build it; meaning that if you dream a design, & then follow through with actually making it, how YOU put it together will be different from anyone else wether they did it "first" or not. The vast majority of slingshots look alike in one way or another. There are notable exceptions, & to be an exception is certainly worth striving for (BC Luxor's 'cube' type, AmmoMike's "Alien", etc, etc), but I'd put money on the fact that the designs you scrapped due to seeing similarities in other's would have been uniquely identifiable as being a product of your hand even if they shared characteristics of "someone else's" design, & therefore would have been well worth making.

Your pursuit of a 100% original is commendable, & I'm sure you'll find it, as you seem vested fully in that end. But in the meantime know that there are some among us who will see the beauty & uniqueness in whatever you drum up.


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## Hisownself (Feb 11, 2012)

I agree with Tentacle Toast. At 20 feet away two slingshots might look identical. Once you get them in your hands, however, you find they are truly different.


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## Outlaw (Jan 16, 2014)

Its funny I was expecting when I started this topic, a lot of people would react, because I know a lot of people experiencing the same problem. And also be annoyed by people who think they can claim everything.

But not so. There are about *462* people ho read this topic, and there where only *12* people who responded.

*My thanks to those 12 people who have taken the time for it.*

I coud better have organized a Giveaway, then a lot of people on the forum had responded.

Or all people agree with me, or are afraid to say anything..................

I'm done with it and put a *fat point* behind this subject, and get on my own way.

I started this discussion not for nothing.

So let no one doing his mouth open when I made by accidentally resemblings with his slingshot, and begin to cry that he is the inventor of that slingshot and claimed it.

In the Netherlands we have a saying: *"He who is silent, Agrees"*


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

I think you are making way too big a deal out of something every maker has to deal with. There are only so many variations on a tree fork that can be made before many of them start to resemble each other. Make what you like.


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## Performance Catapults (Feb 3, 2010)

Henry in Panama said:


> I think you are making way too big a deal out of something every maker has to deal with. There are only so many variations on a tree fork that can be made before many of them start to resemble each other. Make what you like.


+1

I've got a few ideas, that I haven't had the time to devote any effort to. I'm surprised no one has had the same ideas. None of them have anything to do with the actual frame itself, but rather the accessory side. I think a lot of talented craftsmen, focus too much on the frame itself. Thinking outside the box a bit will open many doors.


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