# Slow Shooting 21 Foot Rule



## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

2 Cans open end to me at 21 feet and slow and deliberate shots placed in each can.

Do you believe the 21 foot rule myth and if so why would you.


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## Arturito (Jan 10, 2013)

ha ha ... 2 accurate shoots in 1 second ha ha ... if that is "slow" I am a tortoise, I am most sure that if want to make yours the Guiness record you will do it easily !

Cheers

Arturo


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Cheers ..... Charles


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Charles you got me in stitches now.

Thanks


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

The reason why the 21 foot rule is used is because it is an average of how fast a policeman can draw and use his gun on an average knife wielding charging assailant.... of course there are many many cops who can get it out and in use far faster, and there's many who can not as well.

It's just an average that's used as a starting point for training and for court purposes in general.

If the guy charging you does not have a lethal implement and is just charging you... the force continium dictates your response can not be lethal... of course if you've got a little slingshot in a holster, the guy let's you know he's getting ready to charge, charges you on your slingshot hand holding side (any other side and takes far longer to shoot), you just happen to be holding ammo in your other hand, you're fast enough to load draw and shoot accurately at a bobbing target that's going to be on you in less than a second and a half.... and the assailant is not high or otherwise not able to fully comprehend pain... then yeah, a little slingshot in a holster is a great self defense weapon so long as the dude you're shooting at isn't wearing a tee shirt!

Of course all that said... the little double tap trickshot you're doing is pretty neat... no I don't see a lot of practical application for it, nor do I see any real practical application for shooting self thrown objects that are 3 to 5 feet away... still, just like the mirror shots, the ricochet shots and other trickshots... they're fun and entertaining to watch!


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Well, in a real situation, you are not likely to be walking around with ammo in your hand and a slingshot at the ready. Try digging the ammo out of your pocket and getting off a shot. Or suppose you are in a parking lot, fishing your car keys out of your pocket. Or suppose a couple of guys come at you from different angles, determined to take your wallet. And you are likely to be surprised by an attacker, so your reaction time will dramatically slow your response.

And quite frankly, a slingshot to the face, even it is a hit, is very unlikely to deter a determined attacker. Ever been in a real bar fight? If getting punched in the face by a 250 pound, muscled up goon does not stop the action, then getting smacked with a marble from a slingshot will do nothing but make a guy REALLY mad. In the places I used to hang out, shooting someone with a slingshot is pretty much a guaranteed fast trip to the hospital for you.

If some thug wants to get you and your stuff, shooting him with a slingshot is just going to pi$$ him off ... he is going to get you, take that dinky little rubber gizmo away from you, and shove it where the sun don't shine.

Cheers .... Charles


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Hey Bill I dont like to complicate things and this is likely a mistake for too much talk and not enough go. I marvel at how slow the police officers in the last video are so slow to react. Are they trained to expect the unexpected and react. It would seem that a speed test should be part of the entry to a police academy.

No trick shooting for me Bill and if it is a trick then it is an illusion.

For the record I do not make any claims of myself.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Just a thought why not 17 feet for a criminal in better shape or 25 feet for a criminal that is over weight and not sol light on his feet. Where do midgits come in the mix or how bout ladies. And how do you calibrate your eyes for 21 feet.

Thats all.


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

only way to solve this 21 foot discussion is to have someone spontaneously attack dgui in a face to face. when hes not expecting it. and of course get it on video.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Imperial said:


> only way to solve this 21 foot discussion is to have someone spontaneously attack dgui in a face to face. when hes not expecting it. and of course get it on video.


I never made any claims of myself. LOL.


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## Jaximus (Jun 1, 2013)

Darrell, are you asking if I believe someone within 21 feet with an edged weapon poses a significant threat to a person with a holstered weapon? If so, then yes I do.

Even if you can draw a firearm and fire a round or two before the guy is on you, that's still not a guarantee you're not going to get your throat slit. Of course, there are a million variables that can affect reaction times and the time it takes to travel 21 feet. I don't think the 21 foot rule was ever meant to be a hard and fast, etched in stone type of truism. I think it was intended as more of a guideline to make officers aware of how quickly things can go from good to really bad.


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

dgui said:


> Imperial said:
> 
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> > only way to solve this 21 foot discussion is to have someone spontaneously attack dgui in a face to face. when hes not expecting it. and of course get it on video.
> ...


 :rofl:


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Hey, you're the one who keeps bringing this subject up... and by the way you're doing the shots in your videos it certainly appears you think you can defeat an attacker who's 21 feet away if you've got a slingshot and he's got a knife... I mean, it's not my imagination here... you really are bringing this up over and over again.

Just know this... I've trained in this exact scenario and have trained many others in this scenario as well... I have been in many situations where the criminal "felt no pain".... I would NEVER stake my life or well being on the effectiveness of shooting a slingshot in a scenario where the attacker has a knife... and to be honest, I probably AM a good enough shot to put the ball in an eyesocket or mouth.

Nor would I EVER suggest that it might be able to be done either... as that would be extremely irresponsible.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Well Bill there are numerous subjects repeatedly brought up more frequent than the 21 foot myth and new people are added to this great forum every day and all subjects are intriguing again Bill I am not making any claims of myself. My opinion of the slingshot just happens to go beyond a toy just for a hobby.

I do not doubt your accomplishments nor your ability to train others, to fight and shooting ability is Marksman Level for sure or rather I should say Expert.

A friendly subject.

Thats all.


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## All Buns Glazing (Apr 22, 2012)

Armour. Friend. 21ft. Pics or it didn't happen.


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## Aussie Allan In Thailand (Jan 28, 2013)

My 2 cents worth regarding close in self defence.

The key always is awareness, whether on the job, or not, always be aware, both of people, and of your environment. ie 2 or more young guys drinking, is potential trouble waiting to happen, not always but occasionally; where are possible exits (?)....where are possible obstacles to turn over etc in aggressors paths of approach (?)..... where are potential improvised weapons such as pool cues/large bottles to be broken etc. (?).....

In general terms the types that are bullies look for victims, not those who clearly are aware and will fight back.

Hence for most of my life in the civilian world I have had very little trouble.

I believe simply because I always follow all the above precautions every day, everywhere I go, all the time.

Regardless of my injuries, or disabilities; or as choose to call them being differently abled; or some may call paranoid ideas.

The bottom line is, I have very few issues outside of the home, or in the home for that matter either, being very happily married.

Also as always dgui, you amaze me.

Cheers Allan


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

The *Tueller Drill* is a self-defense  by Solid Savings">training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun.

Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover 21 feet (6.4 m), so he timed volunteers as they raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. These results were first published as an article in SWAT magazine in 1983 and in a police training  by Solid Savings">video by the same title, "How Close is Too Close?"[1]

A defender with a gun has a dilemma. If he shoots too early, he risks being charged with murder. If he waits until the attacker is definitely within striking range so there is no question about motives, he risks injury and even death. The Tueller experiments quantified a "danger zone" where an attacker presented a clear threat.[2]

The Tueller Drill combines both parts of the original time trials by Tueller. There are several ways it can be conducted:[3]


The "attacker and shooter are positioned back-to-back. At the signal, the attacker sprints away from the shooter, and the shooter unholsters his gun and shoots at the target 21 feet (6.4 m) in front of him. The attacker stops as soon as the shot is fired. The shooter is successful only if his shot is good and if the runner did not cover 21 feet (6.4 m).
A more stressful arrangement is to have the attacker begin 21 feet (6.4 m) behind the shooter and run towards the shooter. The shooter is successful only if he was able take a good shot before he is tapped on the back by the attacker.
If the shooter is armed with only a training replica gun, a full-contact drill may be done with the attacker running towards the shooter. In this variation, the shooter should practice side-stepping the attacker while he is drawing the gun.

The above Tueller Drill cannot apply to all situations. Someone who is truly conditioned will not be overtaken. Just my opinion. Tueller needs to go back to school.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

dgui said:


> Someone who is truly conditioned will not be overtaken. Just my opinion. Tueller needs to go back to school.


Perhaps you just need to have more experience with real life situations of serious interpersonal conflict.

Cheers ....... Charles


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Charles said:


> dgui said:
> 
> 
> > Someone who is truly conditioned will not be overtaken. Just my opinion. Tueller needs to go back to school.
> ...


Being a construction worker for many years I have had plenty of that. Not from books but from real life.


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## Jaximus (Jun 1, 2013)

Charles said:


> dgui said:
> 
> 
> > Someone who is truly conditioned will not be overtaken. Just my opinion. Tueller needs to go back to school.
> ...


Yes, I couldn't disagree more, Darrell. Good cops get killed because in 99.9999% of encounters with citizens there is no violence. They can't respond to every call ready to gun down the first person they see make a sudden move. It doesn't matter how conditioned they are. It's not the same as standing on a range waiting for a shot clock to beep and knowing that you will be drawing your weapon and firing at a "threat". In my opinion 21 feet might even be a little too optimistic given the time it takes to react to an unexpected event, the time it takes to draw a weapon under real stress, the time it takes to assess whether the guy running at you has a weapon, that split second where you think, "Should I issue a verbal command? If I shoot this guy will I go to jail? Am I sure that's not a cell phone in his hand?"


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## ash (Apr 23, 2013)

I'm just glad that I don't live in a place where I have to fear every person who passes me on the street and arm myself daily just in case.


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## NaturalFork (Jan 21, 2010)

Shooting a police officer with a slingshot will get you killed pretty fast. At least in the states.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

dgui said:


> Charles said:
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> > dgui said:
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Well, with all of that experience and your obvious expertise, you should get in touch with all the law enforcement agencies. They are always looking for effective non-lethal methods of taking down an attacker. I am sure they would be delighted to hear from you. Just think of the lives you could save. Think of the money you could make teaching workshops for police officers, etc.

Cheers ...... Charles


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## All Buns Glazing (Apr 22, 2012)

Ha ha  this topic lives?


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## Jaximus (Jun 1, 2013)

This is my go-to self-defense option:









35-1/2" of Cane Masters custom hickory. It's always right in my hand ready to go and no one gives me a second look as I gimp around. I always carry a 2-1/2" folder in my pocket and now that Illinois has lifted its unconstitutional ban on concealed carry I'll also be carrying a .38 J-frame soon, but the cane will likely still be my primary even though I can draw the J-frame from concealment and fire 2 rounds in just over a second. Any of those options would still be infinitely superior to a slingshot in a self-defense situation, though. I guess that's really the bottom line. I think I'd rather use a PFS as a kubaton than try to shoot it at someone. However, what you decide to do in that situation is entirely your business.

As far as questioning the validity of Tueller's findings; until you do a real force-on-force drill against a motivated opponent that really wants to "kill" you I don't think you really have grounds to dispute any of it.

I also want to say that I'm quite opinionated about this matter and if I'm coming off as a total d-bag call me out on it. In my shooting circles we have knock-down-drag-outs about this kind of stuff, but nobody really takes it personally.


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## Aussie Allan In Thailand (Jan 28, 2013)

Self defence, is all about personal experience, preparedness, awareness of potential risks and situations, and just how far one is prepared to go in defence of both ones life, personal property, loved ones, and honour.

However all that said, nothing trumps experience.

Cheers Allan


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## Jaximus (Jun 1, 2013)

Well said, Allan.


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## Aussie Allan In Thailand (Jan 28, 2013)

Thank you Jaximus, and I personally would die fighting to protect my Thai/Japanese wifes honour from any drunken western tourists insults; thinking all Thai women are bar girl/prostitutes. And by the way, you would not need the fingers of one hand to count the number of times I have been been too drunk to drive a motor vehicle while away from my home in the 5 years I have lived in Thailand.
As the tattoo on the back of the neck say, kind of corny but true "Death Before Dishonour".

Cheers Allan


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Our friend did an experiment.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Charles said:


> dgui said:
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> > Charles said:
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Get a grip, self defence is just that.

I take the attitude of Michael Moran.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

dgui said:


> Charles said:
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> > dgui said:
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 :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

Cheers ..... Charles


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## Arturito (Jan 10, 2013)

Well I lived a REAL experience, in the village where I live there are many "streets dogs" (means nobody is responsible) most of them are quite good intelligent and pacific animals. Me and my wife go every day to buy our vegetables and food biking. About 2 weeks ago a big dog like a rothweiler/pitbull mix breed suddenly attacked my wife knocking her bike and making her felt down, I were 3 meters behind her and I always carry my tubes OPFS, so I just jumped out my bike with feline reaction and loaded incredibly fast a 11mm steel ball and shoot the animal in it's head, the animal got shocked howling in pain for a while and gave me time to put another shoot on his thigh to make it run away, my wife was lying over the street and was completely defenceless exposing her face and throat to a lethal attack. Was a very scary limit experience I never thought I could live. the police took in charge this situation and no notification against me for animal mistreatment as it was clear for all the witness that was self defence ...

Cheers

Arturo


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

Nice shot Arturo! Made it happen when it counted.


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## Forzajuve (Oct 25, 2012)

adrenaline causes flight of fight reaction. In the martial arts field many black belts and higher react to a degree much lower then there standings when the pressure is truly on. This is why cops and military must be trained to a point that instinct takes over. I have been in the ring many times and can tell you many great artist ca not pull it together when they have been training for years there is bell rings to signal its go time. I cannot imagine a cop on the job thinking everything is routine and an attack just happens.

Whether its is 5, 21 or 30 feet I think that danger does exist; and that to minimize the jeopardy that exist for these brave soldiers and police officers is a disservice.

I don't believe the message of the 21' rule is to train your eyes for that distance but to ensure that when instinct kicks in you know that an open handed defence ans/or immediately to move to give you more room is the key.


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## Tube_Shooter (Dec 8, 2012)

It could go like this> Man charges with knife,I pull my slingshot and with adrenalin pumping I pull my bands much harder than normal....snap my bands break Ooops!! I wake up in A&E with a knife and slingshot in my A** if I'm lucky


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

View attachment 38519


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Arturito said:


> Well I lived a REAL experience, in the village where I live there are many "streets dogs" (means nobody is responsible) most of them are quite good intelligent and pacific animals. Me and my wife go every day to buy our vegetables and food biking. About 2 weeks ago a big dog like a rothweiler/pitbull mix breed suddenly attacked my wife knocking her bike and making her felt down, I were 3 meters behind her and I always carry my tubes OPFS, so I just jumped out my bike with feline reaction and loaded incredibly fast a 11mm steel ball and shoot the animal in it's head, the animal got shocked howling in pain for a while and gave me time to put another shoot on his thigh to make it run away, my wife was lying over the street and was completely defenceless exposing her face and throat to a lethal attack. Was a very scary limit experience I never thought I could live. the police took in charge this situation and no notification against me for animal mistreatment as it was clear for all the witness that was self defence ...
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Arturo


You have proven the advantage with the OPFS and that it is Quick and can be used for real self defence in this case protecting what is so near and dear to your heart. Thank you for sharing this and so glad to hear all worked out well.

Dgui


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## Arturito (Jan 10, 2013)

Hey Darrell, I really don't understand yet how could I do so fast the whole thing ... I was terrified, was completely instinctive and automatic reaction, after the adrenaline and calm down I remembered your fast shoots skills ! may I did something near ?

oh yes the OPFS saved my wife from serious consequences !

the dog was taken out the streets and the police told me that some prior attacks were reported from this dog ...

so you see the negligence of state officers reacting LATE !

Cheers

Arturo


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Here is an interview with Tueller himself and the bottom line is that 21 feet means nothing but what counts is your own reaction time in pulling a Glock. The interesting thing aboutl Tueller is that he is connected with Glock which is a very slow weapon to draw take safety off and fire. The reason the 21 foot got started is because this is the distance that police officers shoot at for training that actually has nothing to do with anything. So In my opinion the 21 foot rule is a false premise but none the less for those who crave it I will post more videos at 21 feet. Whats the poiint in 21 feet when most police that have to discharge their weapons do so at 10 feet.

A Tuellers Tale.


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Arturito said:


> Hey Darrell, I really don't understand yet how could I do so fast the whole thing ... I was terrified, was completely instinctive and automatic reaction, after the adrenaline and calm down I remembered your fast shoots skills ! may I did something near ?
> 
> oh yes the OPFS saved my wife from serious consequences !
> 
> ...


You sure saved the day with your rapid accurate response.

Awesome !


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## Jaximus (Jun 1, 2013)

dgui said:


> The interesting thing aboutl Tueller is that he is connected with Glock which is a very slow weapon to draw take safety off and fire.


Glock's don't have a manual safety. You pull the trigger, the gun goes bang. From concealment, with reaction time, I can draw my Glock 23 and fire a shot in about 8/10ths of a second. A little more if I need to go to full extension and get a sight picture.

You're missing the point of the 21 foot premise. If a guy rushes you with a knife from 21 feet and you have to draw a weapon and fire, the guy isn't still going to be 21 feet away by the time your gun goes off. More like 3, or less. The point of this drill is to show people that carry guns that just because a guy is 20 or more feet away doesn't protect them from an edged weapon. A gun isn't a magic all-defeating shield. There's no more motive behind the "21 foot rule" than that.


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## Jaximus (Jun 1, 2013)

Also, officers don't just train to shoot at 21 feet. They shoot from a variety of distances. For many years 25 yards has pretty much been the standard for combat handgun accuracy, even though most shootings will take place much closer than that.


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

View attachment 38532


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

8 tenths of a second sure seems slow but it is a Glock. Would do better with a revolver. Even Tueller is sceptical of 21 feet.


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

let me lend a bat. . .



treefork said:


> images (6).jpg


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Yea. More from The Inperial One.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Hey Darrell, I'm surprised at you. I always thought your shooting was for pure fun and that you were not really serious about self-defense. The shooting you do is delightful fun to watch and impressive as heck... but come on!


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## dgui (Jan 12, 2010)

Hello Day Hiker. 
Glad you find some video a delight to watch.
Only have a couple more to do.
So hang on .
Dgui


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