# I have been thinking



## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

I am declaring war on anybody -- and there are many of you -- who goes higher than 220 grit when finishing your forks.

1) Tons of very nice furniture is made where sanding goes to 220 grit -- period.
2) You do not make up for shaping deficits by making it smoother.
3) Slingshots that are too smooth are hard to hold, and also discourage use for being too "pretty".

Who's with me on this?


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## Hrawk (Oct 25, 2010)

_1) Tons of very nice furniture is made where sanding goes to 220 grit -- period._

Spot on. I think people would be surprised how good a job bees wax does of filling in and hiding the smaller scratches. Same with a good varnish or lacquer.

_2) You do not make up for shaping deficits by making it smoother._

Yep.

_3) Slingshots that are too smooth are hard to hold, and also discourage use for being too "pretty"._

Absolutely. Mind you, I have several slingshots here that I will probably never shoot for that reason, but they sure do look nice in the collection.

With my current love of using acrylics though, I'm still stuck with sanding through the higher grades. That stuff is very unforgiving and shows up each and every minute scratch.


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## mckee (Oct 28, 2010)

its feels awesome when its so smooth though imo


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## Hrawk (Oct 25, 2010)

He makes a very good point too about being too smooth can make it hard to hold onto. Take my ice frames for example, if you have wet or sweaty hands, they really are like trying to hold onto a block of ice.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

mckee said:


> its feels awesome when its so smooth though imo


With all due respect, though, Mckee, so what? Are you a sculptor or a maker of slingshots? What does ultra smoothness contribute?


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

Dayhiker said:


> I am declaring war on anybody -- and there are many of you -- who goes higher than 220 grit when finishing your forks.
> 
> 1) Tons of very nice furniture is made where sanding goes to 220 grit -- period.
> 2) You do not make up for shaping deficits by making it smoother.
> ...


You have a friend in Panama.


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## Danny0663 (Mar 15, 2011)

People have different preferences of what their ideal "Finish" is.
People may need to sand all the way to 2000grit + for ovious reasons (Polishing frames)
and then some frames may only need 220grit.

I believe theres no right or wrong.


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## mckee (Oct 28, 2010)

less chance of rubbing that causing blisters


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## Hrawk (Oct 25, 2010)

Dayhiker said:


> Are you a sculptor or a maker of slingshots? What does ultra smoothness contribute?


Why can't a person be both ? Is it a crime to go the extra effort on a slingshot and turn it into a work of art ?

There is one place where ultra smoothness is a big benefit and that is the fork tips. The smoother the finish, the less abrasion and wear on the bands.


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## mckee (Oct 28, 2010)

Hrawk said:


> Are you a sculptor or a maker of slingshots? What does ultra smoothness contribute?


Why can't a person be both ? Is it a crime to go the extra effort on a slingshot and turn it into a work of art ?

There is one place where ultra smoothness is a big benefit and that is the fork tips. The smoother the finish, the less abrasion and wear on the bands.
[/quote]
great point hrawk
i try to do my best on all frames personally i like the finest finish possible just that little effort with i think makes it feel better


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## smitty (Dec 17, 2009)




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## Performance Catapults (Feb 3, 2010)

220 is all I use


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## smitty (Dec 17, 2009)

I don't have the patience to keep sanding when I can't even hold onto it anymore while working on it. Especially if sanding sealer is used for the first two coats.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Nobody said anything about right or wrong. I just think things can be taken to ridiculous extremes in any realm. Beyond 220 is ridiculous in my opinion. All I'm trying to do here is establish what the general opinion is.

Must admit, though, that I will still disagree with 220+ responders.

Edit: Must add that anyone can keep sanding and sanding. Doesn't make you a better craftsman.


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

I hardly ever make slingshots anymore but I've never been a big sander. 220 has always been where I finish off.


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## melvin (Jan 11, 2011)

Dayhiker,
Have to agree whole heartedly . You have a few of mine and they are most generally finish sanded with the abrasive sponge type stuff,a coat or two of satin poly, steel wooled between coats, and the final finish is a coat of Min-Wax paste wax rubbed out. Works for me although I'm going to try a linseed soak on some.
Melvin


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## Jesus Freak (Dec 31, 2011)

I agree with you DH


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

I have a few over-finished slingshots from various makers. Sometimes they are good shooters, but it is never because they are sanded beyond common sense. No extra points for having huge patience with sandpaper.

I repeat. No one in the world is not capable of sanding a slingshot up to the highest grit there is. So beyond 220 you don't get extra points with me. Others will disagree, of course, but that puts you in different category. You belong in the "lovers of impractical stuff" group. You are art lovers. Which is certainly okay. I love art too. I'm just sayin' .... but I want to be a craftsman myself. And a shooter.


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## marcus sr (Jun 5, 2011)

i like my foot in both camps


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

marcus sr said:


> i like my foot in both camps


Pick one or the other, Marcus, and you will reach your full potential. Don't dither.


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## Hrawk (Oct 25, 2010)

You cant get a finish like this only sanding to 220.

To each their own.


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## marcus sr (Jun 5, 2011)

Dayhiker said:


> i like my foot in both camps


Pick one or the other, Marcus, and you will reach your full potential. Don't dither.
[/quote]you may have a point,granted


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## Rayshot (Feb 1, 2010)

I will do both but I will say one of my things in life is what I go by in my business and I am quite picky for quality.

I put it this way to get top notch results; "Do as little as possible but as much as necessary for the required results."

There can be reasons to go to a higher grit. But for most people's needs, 220 is quite good especially if applying multiple coats that are sanded at least once between coats


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## Rayshot (Feb 1, 2010)

And I agree that some catty designs are plain dangerous for me if too slick. My first natural I feared for my teeth because it was too slick for that particular design. Other designs of naturals could be nearly greased and would be fine.


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Dayhiker said:


> I am declaring war on anybody -- and there are many of you -- who goes higher than 220 grit when finishing your forks.


"Of course you realize, this means war!"








No way Marvin the Martain is sanding past 220.


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## flippinout (Jul 16, 2010)

Some wood begs for careful and attentive sanding to bring out its beauty and character. Is it necessary for function? Absolutly not!

220 will get you a smooth finish- functional and finished. Going further will get you that and something to enjoy with your touch, eyes, and pride in ownership. The extra work is the pleasure of the act of creating, the enjoyment of the process, and the joy of sensing the beauty of a highly finished and refined tool that is both tool and art.

I will dither in both camps as I always have and lend my support to all you terminal sanders out there, you are not alone!


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## monoaminooxidase (Jun 20, 2011)

You certainly got a point, dayhiker. but the fact that sanding for hours is an easy job most of the time is a part of why I like it. After carving and rasping and worrying and cursing I just like to see the thing get more and more shiny without having to think too much about what I'm doing. And as for slickness, I find beeswax always gives enough grip.
But yeah, I'll think of you next time I put the used 240 sandpaper in the bin and reach for 320.


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## Bob Fionda (Apr 6, 2011)

I like to finish a natural to the finest sand-paper I can find. Acutally I do up to 2500 and that's a very very fine grip. I have no expectations on myself to be a catapult-maker, nor an artist, I just enjoy making them as much as I like, it makes me feel good and relaxed as well as when I go out shooting cans. I don't know really what is right or wrong to make a catapult, I believe that if a catapult fits one's hand well she's good, it does't matter how it's finished, if it's raw or fine sanded and waxed. I don't like to make categories among makers, shooters or just "lovers of impractical stuff" because it tends to divide rather than connect each other. I appreciate your threads Bill, you are stimulating us and this may be good, but I think that our treasure is given by our ability to put together individual. Thanks, best. Bob.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Okay guys we have had our "war". You all know which side I'm on. Nathan made the only point I will agree with for the other side, and that is that some woods do require finer sanding to bring out their true potential. Black cherry and walnut come to mind.

@ Hrawk: All I can say is, nice. But so what? It's supposed to be a slingshot. Its exceeding beauty does not elevate it above, for example, one of Nathan's masterpieces. But I'll bet it's smoother.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Bob Fionda said:


> I like to finish a natural to the finest sand-paper I can find. Acutally I do up to 2500 and that's a very very fine grip. I have no expectations on myself to be a catapult-maker, nor an artist, I just enjoy making them as much as I like, it makes me feel good and relaxed as well as when I go out shooting cans. I don't know really what is right or wrong to make a catapult, I believe that if a catapult fits one's hand well she's good, it does't matter how it's finished, if it's raw or fine sanded and waxed. I don't like to make categories among makers, shooters or just "lovers of impractical stuff" because it tends to divide rather than connect each other. I appreciate your threads Bill, you are stimulating us and this may be good, but I think that our treasure is given by our ability to put together individual. Thanks, best. Bob.


Well, Bob, I can't help it. I cannot help but ask myself what I am doing here. Is it a practical art or a fine art. Of course it can be either. But what I'm asking is, am I an artist or am I an artisan. I have chosen artisan. Others want to be artists I guess. Nobody's right or wrong, and I don't want to divide the community. I'm just pointing out that it's already divided. That's all.

Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.
(bad paraphrase of Shakespeare)


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## Hrawk (Oct 25, 2010)

Dayhiker said:


> @ Hrawk: All I can say is, nice. But so what? It's supposed to be a slingshot. Its exceeding beauty does not elevate it above, for example, one of Nathan's masterpieces. But I'll bet it's smoother.


I like to make my slingshots using acrylics because it is something different. I don't want to be making carbon copies of something everyone else is doing. I want my work to be unique and stand out from the crowd.

Yes it is supposed to be a slingshot and that's exactly what it is. I like to take pride in whatever I make and try to make it to the best of my ability. I'm not happy with taking short cuts then looking at something later and thinking I could have done better. If this takes a bit more sanding, so what, it's fun to do and you get a real sense of achievement holding the finished product.

Being able to aim THROUGH the fork tip rocks !!!


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Okay, Hwrak. So for you real smooth is good but maximum smooth is better. But you are talking about acrylics. Acrylic slingshots are works of art in my opinion. If you do not highly polish them they don't look good and the whole point of making them out of acrylics is looks.
So I'll just consider you more of an artist than a craftsman. There is no problem there. In this war we are on opposite sides. But nobody can actually win this war, ha ha.


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## Hrawk (Oct 25, 2010)

Lol you're right.

Thanks for the compliment calling me an artist. Usually I just get called an alcoholic


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## f00by (May 18, 2010)

I can understand where you are coming from DH. For the record, I also lie in the realm of perpetual sandpaper. Personal perference and to each their own







I have no problem and, in fact, love shooting my cattys that i have shaped, sanded and finished to my personal quality standards

With this take on things, where do you stand with boardcuts? Seems to me that this would also lie generally in the artist area...

-f00bs


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## wombat (Jun 10, 2011)

haha I see a trade coming up between dayhiker and hrawk!!








as for me I'm a 240 guy. BUT I don't skip my grits...100, 120, 180, 240 with a 320 wet/dry between finishing coats.


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## newconvert (Dec 12, 2011)

Hrawk said:


> Are you a sculptor or a maker of slingshots? What does ultra smoothness contribute?


Why can't a person be both ? Is it a crime to go the extra effort on a slingshot and turn it into a work of art ?

There is one place where ultra smoothness is a big benefit and that is the fork tips. The smoother the finish, the less abrasion and wear on the bands.
[/quote]

agree, any part the bands touch i like to be very smooth or ad with 107 cut offs


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## Blue Danube (Sep 24, 2011)

Lol what if you are not "average" and want true depth of finish as a craftsman?

The finer the wood finish the more uniform each coat of sealer and top coat will be. I prefer my work finely finished, I can go from gloss or deep satin in two steps. 
If you use low grade lumber or multiprex 220 or 320 grit is about right, if you use an exotic or burl wood anything less than 600 grit will look like crap.
Just my limited experience working and selling all kinds of wooden implements, boxes, cases, knife handles,knife scales, humidors, jewelry boxes, etc etc over the past 40 years

The design and execution of work are more critical than finish for functionality, if the frame is junk design nothing will make it grip better, if you try to make a buffalo killer by overbanding this becomes more apparent.

do whatever you want if you are happy and having FUN who cares, mine are a legacy to be passed on and appreciated by who ever owns them


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## f00by (May 18, 2010)




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## NaturalFork (Jan 21, 2010)

Well whatever dayhiker uses is pretty **** smooth.

However I know that when I sand I use 500 as my last stop. I like things really really smooth. And with a poly or glue finish they are very grippy.

**** I'm smooth.


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## newconvert (Dec 12, 2011)

i think every creation has its use, and each wood type has its qualities, some woods would not like a good 600 grit sanding, some would. if i wanted the end product to look like Hrawk's ice shooters i would get a nice tight grained wood and just do that! make it shine, the ergos you build into a handle would be sufficient to prevent the ss from slipping out of your hands, or if that is not enough than put a lanyard on it. i have seen Bill Hays, Nathan, Hrawk, and many others with some pretty shiny beauties that i would be proud to carry and shoot, on the other hand most board cuts are fairly flat so you would need the traction of the rough sanding, both are great and work equally well, in the end its up to the user, i think a shiny toy with a few bumps and bruises just has more character, just like us older guys. yeah buddy!


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## Danny0663 (Mar 15, 2011)

> do whatever you want if you are happy and having FUN


Totally agree.


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## Bob Fionda (Apr 6, 2011)

Dayhiker said:


> I like to finish a natural to the finest sand-paper I can find. Acutally I do up to 2500 and that's a very very fine grip. I have no expectations on myself to be a catapult-maker, nor an artist, I just enjoy making them as much as I like, it makes me feel good and relaxed as well as when I go out shooting cans. I don't know really what is right or wrong to make a catapult, I believe that if a catapult fits one's hand well she's good, it does't matter how it's finished, if it's raw or fine sanded and waxed. I don't like to make categories among makers, shooters or just "lovers of impractical stuff" because it tends to divide rather than connect each other. I appreciate your threads Bill, you are stimulating us and this may be good, but I think that our treasure is given by our ability to put together individual. Thanks, best. Bob.


Well, Bob, I can't help it. I cannot help but ask myself what I am doing here. Is it a practical art or a fine art. Of course it can be either. But what I'm asking is, am I an artist or am I an artisan. I have chosen artisan. Others want to be artists I guess. Nobody's right or wrong, and I don't want to divide the community. I'm just pointing out that it's already divided. That's all.

Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.
(bad paraphrase of Shakespeare)
[/quote]
Now I see. Ok, thanks for your point of view. Best, Bob


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## hawk2009 (Dec 30, 2009)

I have just read every post on this subject wow some of you are really serious about the finish, I don't know anything about wood or what to use for finishing those products. All I did when I started making slingshots was find something cheap but strong (mdf). My router does a top job so hardly any sanding is needed when cut, so I apply the bees wax whack it in the microwave to dry it for 30 seconds wipe it with a cloth lightly sand with 400 paper varnish it with two or three coats, I don't sand in between coats so it's a little rough all I do is make sure the varnish is dry and sit it on top of the radiator for a few minutes, 400 is the finest paper I have so if I get a new piece it's to rough so rub it together to smooth it off when it feels right I get the wife's furniture polish spray it on the slingshot and rub it down with the paper it takes just a couple of minutes one last wipe with the cloth and it's done.


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## Jaxter (Jan 23, 2012)

mdf isn't that strong be careful


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## pop shot (Sep 29, 2011)

If you have a wood with nice figuring and grain features, the full potential of the wood only comes out with fine sanding. When I've got a figured piece of wood I try to sand down as far as I can. But normally, I stop around 220.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

This has been a great thread. I thank each and every one of you who posted.

To be perfectly honest, what motivated me to start this was the fact that I am sick to death of sanding. I am beginning to really dread it.

I agree that some woods really do require that you sand them and polish them. But I only work in naturals and plywood for the most part. So this was coming from my perspective. The only way I can up my game is to start using better woods(better looking, that is), and that would require me to spend lots more hours just rubbing and rubbing in order to justify using them

OR I could spend lots more money on tools and equipment. Going into retirement in June means that starting now, I just ain't gonna have that kind of money to spend on more tools.

So I had to take a look at myself and my hobby. I wanted to get your thoughts on this and I certainly do appreciate them. Thanks again guys. I will now try and settle into my own sweet spot and just sit back and enjoy what I'm doing.


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## Performance Catapults (Feb 3, 2010)

Cocobolo is exotic to me, and still, all I use on it is 220.


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## Incomudro (Jan 12, 2012)

There's room for every approach as far as I'm concerened.
While I won't deny that a glossy finish might be slippery on a sweaty day, I glad to see that some slingshot makers go this route.

Different takes by different builders give guys like us more options, and more styles to collect enjoying what each design and designer has to offer.

Variety is the spice of life.


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## harpersgrace (Jan 28, 2010)

Sandpaper, really don't use it much. Most of the time a good scraping gets it smooth enough.


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## smitty (Dec 17, 2009)

One thing I don't think has been mentioned is that the choice of finish determines the amount of sanding that must be done. Using a high build sanding sealer before the finish coats makes sanding the bare wood less important. This doesn't have to take long either, especially if lacquer is chosen for the entire process, (even stain), if used. Sand bare wood up to 220 until no scratches remain from shaping, apply one coat of Hi-Build lacquer sanding sealer and sand with 220 only until powder shows, apply second coat of sanding sealer and again sand with 220 lightly, use tack rag to wipe off powder and apply first coat of lacquer, sand, tack wipe, then apply last coat of lacquer. This will produce a super fine finish with a minimum of sanding, because sanding sealer is so easy to sand.
If something like danish oil is chosen, then only fine sanding of the wood will determine the smoothness of the finish.
If a thin veneer is applied to the project, then this would require the least amount of sanding necessary on bare wood to produce the finish desired. The veneer could easily be sanded through and ruin the project.
It ain't cheating if you use a sanding sealer to get the high gloss look you may want. They made it to cut way down on sanding bare wood.
I like the feel of the wood when I am done, so I like to use oil because it soaks in and doesn't build up on the surface. When it looks and feels like I want I let it dry and shoot it. Much later, wax can be applied for maintenance.


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## The Gopher (Aug 25, 2010)

I only go to 220 when sanding wood...I use 500 between coats of poly instead of using steel wool.


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## Rockape66 (Dec 18, 2011)

*I rally like using my cabinet scrapers; it doesn't get much smoother than that. 400 grit or better between first few finish coats then paste wax and 0000 steel wool. It seems like harder work waiting for the finish coats to cure than sanding.*


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## THWACK! (Nov 25, 2010)

Danny0663 said:


> People have different preferences of what their ideal "Finish" is.
> People may need to sand all the way to 2000grit + for ovious reasons (Polishing frames)
> and then some frames may only need 220grit.
> 
> I believe theres no right or wrong.


..now there's a real politician


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## Danny0663 (Mar 15, 2011)

> now there's a real politician


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## Northerner (Nov 9, 2010)

I typically go 100, 150, 220 and 320 grit... but I spend the most time with the 100 & 150 grit paper. For rounding fork tips I will often start with 60 grit.

Cheers,
Northerner


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

My habitual grits on naturals are: 80, 100, 150, 220


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## Sean (Nov 17, 2011)

My GF's son works at Windsor Plywood here in Canada and awhile back I asked him to pick up some Sandpaper
as I hadn't much on hand, and figured I would need some working on Slingshots. I don't have anything finer than
220 grit.
A lot of times I've found after debarking a natural and leaving it to dry some, I don't really need to sand much at all
it's so smooth, unless I need to re-shape then it's a bit different.









sean


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## Bob Fionda (Apr 6, 2011)

Dayhiker said:


> I am declaring war on anybody -- and there are many of you -- who goes higher than 220 grit when finishing your forks.
> 
> 1) Tons of very nice furniture is made where sanding goes to 220 grit -- period.
> 2) You do not make up for shaping deficits by making it smoother.
> ...


I've been wondering...what about these? Aren't they smooth and hard to hold? Where's the truth? What do Forums are made for, to inform, to sell, to influence people?
What do you think about it?
http://www.milbropro..._the_world.html


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## Incomudro (Jan 12, 2012)

Bob Fionda said:


> I am declaring war on anybody -- and there are many of you -- who goes higher than 220 grit when finishing your forks.
> 
> 1) Tons of very nice furniture is made where sanding goes to 220 grit -- period.
> 2) You do not make up for shaping deficits by making it smoother.
> ...


I've been wondering...what about these? Aren't they smooth and hard to hold? Where's the truth? What do Forums are made for, to inform, to sell, to influence people?
What do you think about it?
http://www.milbropro..._the_world.html
[/quote]

My *Flippinout* is smooth as a babys' butt.
It isn't difficult to grip at all.
I'd imagine if I had sweaty hands on a hot summer day, that might be different - but I haven't encountered that yet.


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## XxDollarBillxX (Apr 28, 2011)

Sometimes its nice to take it to 800 grit. Just personal Preference i guess.


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## Chepo69 (May 1, 2010)

The woods are usually generous in showing their grain and color when sanded above 220 grits


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## newconvert (Dec 12, 2011)

Chepo69 said:


> The woods are usually generous in showing their grain and color when sanded above 220 grits


i agree, recently i have gone as high as 600 grit, it makes a difference in grain definition, it like looking at the same tv 1 in 480p the other in 1080p same picture, but a big difference in what is seen.


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## Sharkman (Jan 15, 2012)

I am with you!


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## pop shot (Sep 29, 2011)

I wanted something grippy and durable, so sanded the C Cup Burner with 60 then 4 heavy CA coats with light 60 btwn coats and 120 on the tips. Nice and easy to hold onto. Hence the name. So yeah, DH, I'm with you.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Yes, Popshot. I try to keep in mind that I'm making a slingshot. But I do understand that some people are trying to make heirlooms and are investing more than a bit of money in the exotic woods or synthetic materials they use. I'd probably want to polish the crap out of stuff like that myself.


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## Sharkman (Jan 15, 2012)

I am with you!


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## cheese (Nov 16, 2011)

Danny0663 said:


> People have different preferences of what their ideal "Finish" is.
> People may need to sand all the way to 2000grit + for ovious reasons (Polishing frames)
> and then some frames may only need 220grit.
> 
> I believe theres no right or wrong.


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## Hrawk (Oct 25, 2010)

I've been sanding to 800-1200 all this last month and have not heard any air raid sirens.

Perhaps it was all just a bluff.


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## richblades (May 2, 2012)

I agree with dayhiker..the man says as he throws his 400, 600, and 1000 grit in the trash.


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## lightgeoduck (Apr 3, 2011)

Enjoy both sides of the spectrum, I love my shiny beauties,, and love collecting them... I love my basics as well, and understand that is all that is needed to shoot. One thing for sure though, no matter how pretty it is,, a slingshot is made to be shot And I would not leave any of my shooters band-less nor prevent them from being pointed at a target....

Of course I don't have patience of my own,,, so I don't go higher than what the spindle sander has ... Which i am sure isn't higher than 220


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

JSkeen just sent me two gorgeous piece of desert ironwood. Now this stuff NEEDS high octane sanding, it would be a crime not to. When I use it, I'm thinking of hiring somebody to do the sanding for me.


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## tomshot123 (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm guessing I am going to get killed because I to up to 2000 all of my woodworking products


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

tomshot123 said:


> I'm guessing I am going to get killed because I to up to 2000 all of my woodworking products


Hey, it's your time. Waste it as you please.


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## Blue Danube (Sep 24, 2011)

You may have a smooth glossy or satin finish quite easily lol, BUT if the average person holds it at an angle and sees striations from sanding under the finish they will probably not care......

I am not average, and if I was paying $$ for a slingshot it better be finished to professional standards.

But thats just me......


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## AJW (Apr 24, 2011)

M_J said:


> I am declaring war on anybody -- and there are many of you -- who goes higher than 220 grit when finishing your forks.


"Of course you realize, this means war!"








No way Marvin the Martain is sanding past 220.
[/quote]

M_J,

What is your problem? Why can't you limit yourself and take a stand in one camp or the other? I think you should also think about not using poly or CA glue, because your hand could slip. I follow and enjoy your postings, but, please narrow your options, at least publicly.

Note: I hit the wrong button, I like your comment!


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## pop shot (Sep 29, 2011)

I'm lost.


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

pop shot said:


> I'm lost.


Me too.


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## newconvert (Dec 12, 2011)

baby's out with the bathwater


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## Viper010 (Apr 21, 2012)

newconvert said:


> baby's out with the bathwater


well, atleast we wont have to hear it cry anymore....


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