# Slingback!



## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Arrived today! Chinese clone, cheap as cheaper. If I like it, I will buy the original too. For now I have to say that those clips are a pita. You can't have much slack, which is good to have in order to re-tie. I don't know about the original, but those clips are not tapped, you tap the while screwing the screw lol. Shot only 10 shots because of Samuraisamoht's event, and it shoots as accurately as the scorpion, but it isn't as comfortable. All in all I am satisfied. This will be my beater, the slingshot to take with me on vacations etc.


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Simple Shot flip clips are pre-tapped, because Nathan and the crew actually care about their customers.
I suppose it doesn't matter what I think about straight up ripoffs. It doesn't matter that someone took the time to thoughtfully design a product, tool it up for production, and put themselves out there to market it. It doesn't matter that people are trying to support their families with their ideas and, as a side benefit, are producing innovative products for slingshot shooters.
All that matters is that you can buy a cheap, shi*ty copy of the same product for a couple bucks less. Eventually, if this race to the bottom continues, there won't be any innovative new products for anyone to copy, but let's not worry about that now.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

MJ - I hear you - and I agree. However as I live outside the US I'm really get where or rather why he went with the 'clone'. You need to understand that buy from outside the US the costs of these frames doubles. Its a high-pricetag frame. Getting a cheap one thats almost identical to have-a-go before splashing out on the levels where the cast aluminium one starts looking sensible. The only way I could logically afford a Scout is through buying second-hand or through a trade.

The cheap Torque is actually a different story as the price for the Chinese knock-off is almost on par with the original (more expensive in some cases as they do pop up on sale through SS). In this case there is absolutely no excuse to buy the real thing as its simply a better product and better value.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

I agree with you MJ. But forking out 40 euros without shipping, just to try something that I may not like, isn't so smart, is it? Of course, as I already said, in the event that I grow to like and use this slingshot, I will buy the original. So, if you think about it, the Chinese knock off may bring a new customer to Nathan, while if there wasn't for the knock off, I wouldn't be buying the original at all


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## SimpleShot (Aug 30, 2012)

We understand that shipping from the USA is expensive. Although we charge the actual rates of the carriers and don't make a dime on shipping, the USA does not offer the same affordable and state funded shipping rates that China offers. We don't mind folks buying the knock offs and talking about them...it really helps spread the word about our products, and most folks who know that it is a knockoff prefer the original.

As such, we do stock the Scout and other of our products at ProShot UK and GoGun in Germany for folks on the other side of the pond. You oughta check them out.

https://proshotcatapults.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_66

https://gogun.de/category/en-tscs/en-us-zwillen-tscs/


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

I already checked them out, if it wasnt 
stocked in Europe I wouldn't even consider getting the original, as the shipping+tax would be too much.
As I said, the only reason for getting the knock off was to see if I would like the frame in a cheap manner. The market here in Greece is too small to even be able to sell a frame if you don't like it.
And I firmly believe that knock offs are actually good for business, I can't imagine someone trying the copy and not getting the real thing if he likes it  I for one, will certainly get the real if I decide I like it enough.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Actually before Pro-Shots' stock clearance sale - it was actually cheaper to buy direct from SS in the US. I am only wondering buying poly frames from Pro-Shot now because the prices are more affordable. Though shipping to EU from the UK is still pretty hefty. Guys in the UK buy them because they are simply Simple Shot designs, especially the HDPE ones. There are so many available from local manufacturers that are cheaper. It would be great to get a UK manufacturer to make them under licence in the UK for sale locally - as you'd get the name and the quality assurance but a cost that is more 'local'.

Its the same in reverse for Wasp - where in the UK frames are ridiculously cheap.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Big difference between $15 and $40. There are two now up for bid on eBay. One has no bids the other is at .99 cents. Expires Monday.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Jolly Roger said:


> Big difference between $15 and $40. There are two now up for bid on eBay. One has no bids the other is at .99 cents. Expires Monday.


 Than people complain about jobs leaving the country. We bring it on ourselves wanting everything cheaper. Instead of supporting our own.

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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Cjw said:


> Jolly Roger said:
> 
> 
> > Big difference between $15 and $40. There are two now up for bid on eBay. One has no bids the other is at .99 cents. Expires Monday.
> ...


We know there is a big mark up when the product can be produced and sold for 3/4 of the U.S. price. The two up for eBay bid are now at .99 cents and $2.99 with free shipping. They mjight even reach the $5 mark by the weekend. I do wish I made enough money to not be concerned with wanting to get a good deal and never buy anything but the product with the highest price tag. I'm constantly reading comments from forum members stating they don't have the money to buy a new slingshot right now. Well most of us can afford $15 or in the ebay bid case $2.99 or .99 cents. I could understand if the HDPE clone were a piece of chinese crap like most of their products are but my own testing proves to me that the Scout clone is top notch in quality and strength. Lets get the U.S. on board and compete with both quality and price.


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## Bootsmann (Feb 13, 2018)

Is there anybody out there who does some extra work to save up some money so he can afford the stuff he wants? Thats what i've been told when i was a little boy...to get my ass off and work for it if i want something.
And with that money i can support hard workin people who put time, effort and real hard work and knowledge in their products.

Same stupid "pro fake" comments here as in the knife forums and i'm sick of it. I'm a moderator in a very knife heavy forum and there you get banned if you want to sell fake shit and no reviews about fakes are allowed.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Jolly Roger said:


> Cjw said:
> 
> 
> > Jolly Roger said:
> ...


 yea let's pay our people $2 an hour if they even get that much in China.They don't have all the insurance and liability we have to deal with here and workman's comp. Insurance for employees, Social security taxes. Some people just don't get it. We can't make it as cheap.

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## STO (Mar 2, 2018)

Jolly Roger said:


> Lets get the U.S. on board and compete with both quality and price.


 This is a bit of a fallacy. I've worked in manufacturing in one way or another for a long time now. The simple reality is that the finished chinese product shipped and sold is often less than the cost of just the raw materials of the American product. There are a lot of reasons for this, and they span the supply chain, but also the politik which creates a fundamentally unfair playing field. Let me give you one of the simpler examples:

International shipping works because there is a basically global trade agreement whereby countries receiving international shipments will deliver them for free. They in turn balance this cost by charging for outgoing international shipments, for which they pay nothing to the foreign country. This works well if you have relatively balanced trade, you'll take in twice the money necessary sending international shipments and half of it goes to paying for international shipments. But what if a country has a trade imbalance where they send out a lot more international shipments than they receive? This will make their shipping costs artificially low, and create a cycle whereby more sales will be directed to them for their lower price. What if the government goes further by then subsidizing international shipments, artificially lowering the price even more?

And that is just one tiny little bite of the larger problem, others being things like we're not willing to tolerate unsafe water, toxic air, and dangerous products. Notice that little "CE" stamped on just about everything that comes from China? It is two french words, which are basically a mark that states you've complied with and passed EU import regulations. These regulations are meant to protect consumers, things like making sure your new toaster oven doesn't burn your house down, and other trivial safety requirements like that. If you live in a country which is beyond the reach of law though, you can stamp a stylized "CE" on your products and claim it stands for "China Export" and only coincidentally is identical to the EU import certification. By law those things must pass import customs unchallenged, and so they do.

So now do you have a better sense of the scale of the issue? Suggesting that American and European companies just need to somehow "get it together" to compete on price with the Chinese may be well-intentioned, but it is a false notion. The tacit endorsement of price-over-all-else is why it continues, everyone wants cheap consumer goods, and for fear of rocking the economic boat and starting a recession there broadly isn't the political will to force China to play fair, obey international law, and comply with trade agreements. As long as consumers are willing to tolerate it, it will continue.

As an aside, it is VASTLY cheaper to steal technology than develop it, while it is less of a thing with slingshots which are fairly simple, the larger elements of the Chinese economy do lean heavily on copied technology either the products themselves or the equipment used to manufacture it.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

This argument has already been held one the same frame. It's pretty boring...

Chinese prices are rapidly increasing - especially over the last year. Quality is down to what the client wants to pay - they'll do whatever you want to whatever quality level you desire. If you want something nicer - go to Taiwan.

Fact is - whoever got these made spent a lot of time and money to make a product for a very small pool. Simpleshot has now brought out a new frame in the PC Axiom - so once again have the upper hand. And to be fair most people would buy the original as its tried and tested - and people always want the real deal.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

The obvious conclusion to this discussion is whether remaking/reinterpreting commercial slingshots is wrong. Everyone who makes a custom Axiom etc. for retail. How would they fair by comparison - or would it be OK if they are US or UK based?

Just a thought.


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

mattwalt said:


> The obvious conclusion to this discussion is whether remaking/reinterpreting commercial slingshots is wrong. Everyone who makes a custom Axiom etc. for retail. How would they fair by comparison - or would it be OK if they are US or UK based?
> Just a thought.


People who make other people's designs for retail usually ask permission and/or pay royalties. 
Those who don't are thought poorly of.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Exactly MJ - However there are loads of small outfits in the UK knocking out nice copies of well-known frames that are snapped up (including many sales to the US) and in one case the only person to have moaned that I'm aware of was Bill H as the vendor in question didn't mention that it was his design...

It would be interesting for Nathan to actually list the permissions he's granted over the years.

Just saying.


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## rosco (Jan 10, 2012)

When I buy anything now and it's probably, unavoidably Chinese made, I keep the receipt. When it breaks, no matter how cheap or how expensive the article, it goes back to the store -

"Unfit for purpose. "

I'm polite, but firm and get my money back. If we all did this, word would eventually trickle back.


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## Tony the slinger (Sep 25, 2015)

May I make a suggestion?

It seems best if we keep the topic of discussion to the slingshots (since this is a slingshot forum) rather than getting into our views about buying from China and our economics?

Just a humble suggestion.

Thanks


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Tony the slinger said:


> May I make a suggestion?
> It seems best if we keep the topic of discussion to the slingshots (since this is a slingshot forum) rather than getting into our views about buying from China and our economics?
> Just a humble suggestion.
> 
> Thanks


 we are talking about slingshots, clones.

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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Tony the slinger said:


> May I make a suggestion?
> 
> It seems best if we keep the topic of discussion to the slingshots (since this is a slingshot forum) rather than getting into our views about buying from China and our economics?
> 
> ...


Tony makes a great wood Scout clone. Very reasonably priced for a custom clone. I've noticed lots of Axioms and PP knockoffs advertised here as well. I guess the best part of capitalism and free enterprise is that thing called competition.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Jolly Roger said:


> Tony the slinger said:
> 
> 
> > May I make a suggestion?
> ...


Competition is Ford competing with Chevy for business,not Ford making cheaper copies of Chevys.

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## The Norseman (Mar 5, 2018)

The second law of thermodynamics in action! From a nice post about a new slingshot, to :hijack: :cursin: :soapbox:


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

The Norseman said:


> The second law of thermodynamics in action! From a nice post about a new slingshot, to :hijack: :cursin: :soapbox:


 No soapbox. There still some of us in society that don't like other people's designs stolen , copied and sold for profit. Call it a moral thing.

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## The Norseman (Mar 5, 2018)

skropi said:


> Arrived today! Chinese clone, cheap as cheaper. If I like it, I will buy the original too. For now I have to say that those clips are a pita. You can't have much slack, which is good to have in order to re-tie. I don't know about the original, but those clips are not tapped, you tap the while screwing the screw lol. Shot only 10 shots because of Samuraisamoht's event, and it shoots as accurately as the scorpion, but it isn't as comfortable. All in all I am satisfied. This will be my beater, the slingshot to take with me on vacations etc.


Cool! Can't wait to see some videos with that, when you are done with the challenge!


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## Tony the slinger (Sep 25, 2015)

Cjw said:


> Jolly Roger said:
> 
> 
> > Tony the slinger said:
> ...


I have no desire to defend my work publicly and start even more debates and arguments, and I did not even desire to bring my work into the conversation.

So I will take no more part in this thread. If anyone has any questions for me, feel free to PM me.

No ill will against anyone here, everyone's entitled to their ideas.

To get back to the original post, nice slingshot, and I would highly recommend the real deal scout.

Have a nice day!

Tony


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Guys, you all accept free market as a given, well, this is free market. You have no patent, that's what happens. Nothing illegal going on. And save me on morals. Everyone has his own morals, so we can't go by that. That's why society has actual written laws. 
Having said that, I agree that the original creator should profit, but I also take as granted that someone else can profit too. If you all read my posts carefully, you will see that my purpose was to check out the frame and the flip clips, and if I like them, buy the original. This a win win for simple shot.
So let's keep politics out because I too have some firm political AND moral beliefs, but I am not bringing them on others. I repeat, I don't accuse simple shot of being expensive, and IF I like the frame, I will buy the original. The copy is not a quality frame in any case. I had to sand down some rough mold lines before I banded it up, so there is no question about quality. You want quality? Buy the original. Just want to try it out? Buy the copy and if you like it get the real one too. Simple really


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

There are now two Scout Chinese clones on eBay up for bid. Both look like they're currently at $4 and still come with free shipping. That is certainly a steal considering paying $40 plus shipping. Would it make a difference if someone in the U.S. made the clones and were able to sell them for the lesser price....or as in the case of a lot of U.S. companies make the product in China or elsewhere then sell it in the U.S. As far as I am aware, the SPS is the only patented slingshot made and sold. But as Matt points out there are many UK and US makers selling the SPS.


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

I won't bore you with the specifics of your misunderstanding of the patent issue, but the SPS design isn't patented. 
If Simple Shot hadn't designed the Scout then there would be nothing to clone. If Performance Catapults hadn't designed the SPS, there would be nothing to clone. If people and companies lose their incentive to create new products because they're immediately ripped off by cloners who put out a crap product and sell it to people who don't appreciate the difference then there won't be any new designs.
Support the people who put forth the energy to create things, not the bottom-dwellers who just RIP them off.


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## theTurk (Feb 25, 2016)

M.J said:


> I won't bore you with the specifics of your misunderstanding of the patent issue, but the SPS design isn't patented.
> If Simple Shot hadn't designed the Scout then there would be nothing to clone. If Performance Catapults hadn't designed the SPS, there would be nothing to clone. If people and companies lose their incentive to create new products because they're immediately ripped off by cloners who put out a crap product and sell it to people who don't appreciate the difference then there won't be any new designs.
> Support the people who put forth the energy to create things, not the bottom-dwellers who just RIP them off.


Thank you!!!!!!

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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

MJ, I agree with you. But keep in mind that in the vaping industry, which is huge, unlike the slingshot market, Chinese clones are prevalent, and account for all original models. Still, the companies that design and manufacture the originals keep on, they haven't gone bankrupt, exactly because people do go for quality.
I really don't think that the original designers loose much money, because people who buy the clones are people who wouldn't buy the original in any case. Not to mention that a cheap clone is the best advertisement


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Justify it however you have to.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

I don't really need to justify a legal selling/buying, do I? There are written laws that govern our actions, none are broken. Whoever doesn't like free market (I certainly don't like it by the way), is free to act so as to change it, but as long as this is our governing economy system, this is how are things done, you can't compete? Your problem. I repeat that I don't like it, I believe we humans are more than animals, but this is the way things are currently run.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Lets be honest. In most cases people actually want the original. Its a badge ownership to a large club and has bragging rights.

I would still love to know the ethics of buying a custom high-end bespoke copy (unsanctioned that is). Vs these bulk produced ones - I think its the same. A knock-off is still a knock-off. It impresses me more the Chinese company that produces these as the risk they took is immense compared to churning out one or two $200 frames. But neither stands a moral high ground.

And for argument sake I have a Torque (which I do) and I absolutely love it (which I do - one of my all time favourites) - and I want one that I can toss in my backpack use as a beater frame... Would it then be OK to get a cheap clone to save the longevity of my precious Torque? Just asking...

I do a lot of work with Chinese companies that make products for big name US brands - as soon as the product reaches the end of its production those suppliers are knocking out the exact same product usually unbranded at production price. In fact often the own-brand products are often superior and come at a higher price tag. Many of the US companies actually proclaim that their products are US manufactured - but often that would be only part of their range. I'm sure the vaping industry falls into this system.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Matt, I agree completely. Personally I don't like talking about ethics. But for the sake of the thread, let me ask you all a moral question. Is it ethical that I work mm ore hours weekly, and earn much less than similar workers in the west? I mean, if we start talking about ethics, let's be honest and take it all the way. 
Realistically I don't want such a conversation here. I come in this forum to meet wonderful people, talk about my slingshot frustrations, and take my mind off everyday problems. If I want to talk about politics, there are other places to do that. And certainly it's impossible in the format of an internet forum. We would all need to talk about it in person, preferably with lots of Weiss beer on the table.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Skropi - I agree completely. I am self employed, and live in the EU. One of the great things about this activity is its affordable. I would have bought a clone already if I could justify the high cost of them.... ironically.

Bring over the Erdinger - anytime.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

I am a Schneider guy, with a bit of Franziscaner sprinkled in. And I do make my own Schneider clone, lol. 
Oh, just saw that you live in Portugal. I think we have a similar climate, that's nice for our ever aging bones.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Nothing like a Mediterranean climate - and food.


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## MOJAVE MO (Apr 11, 2018)

I love Chinese food and have a favorite spot! Then I found out it was owned and operated by a Phillipino family. So I am thinking I might have been loving Phillipino food all these years??!

I have studied deep into all things written on this subject from y'all and beyond. My first 'commercial' slingshot purchase since 1975 so I wanted to. E diligent. I saved my money, and they second I had the $$ I went with PP and SS for a total of three wonderfully cool slings to start slanging right away. It doesn't take a business degree for me to know my small purchase fed some faces and fixed some roofs of my fellow countrymen. I can do this because I have options available to me that are extreme and perverse and includ calling one of my OWN buddies in the kayak biz and start molding my own re-fakes and shipping them back to the Philippines to sell to the Chinese smugglers who occupy the out islands. I figure in about 18 months I will be rolling in dough selling my little slings to the Chinese school kids!!

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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Matt. Want me to buy you a Tork clone and mail it to you?


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## rosco (Jan 10, 2012)

Interesting thread. Managed to agree with everyone. Think I may or may not have a problem with indecision.


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## Hulla Baloo (Nov 25, 2017)

As a Scout loyalist and Original Perk Niner I'm happy you're shooting Skropi, whatever it is. Let yourself be driven by the shooting side of slingshooting- ever smaller targets. There were times in my life when I was anything but flush, and I was looking to save a farthing wherever possible. I can't fault you for a clone buy, I'm glad you're exploring the hobby. And if you're like most of us, your equipment acquisitions won't stop with that rig.  I'm convinced you're not launching a scheme to topple Simple Shot, and I'm pretty sure Nathan is as well. Again, the shooting will tell all. If it works for you, it works for you. These things grow on trees after all.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Jolly Roger said:


> Matt. Want me to buy you a Tork clone and mail it to you?


 Would you be offering to buy Scorpion clones or Ranger clones or is just Nathan's stuff because you've got some kind of beef with Simple Shot. ?

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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

That's what I am doing Hulla Baloo! And of course, even if money is tight, if I come to like the scout, I will be saving up for an original. It's not an expensive hobby, someone can save up and eventually buy a more expensive frame.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

skropi said:


> That's what I am doing Hulla Baloo! And of course, even if money is tight, if I come to like the scout, I will be saving up for an original. It's not an expensive hobby, someone can save up and eventually buy a more expensive frame.


I can save you a few $$ when you decide to buy an original Scout. I have a blue Gen. 1 and an orange Gen. 2. Even willing to trade for a PP Scorpion.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Cjw said:


> Jolly Roger said:
> 
> 
> > Matt. Want me to buy you a Tork clone and mail it to you?
> ...


I do have 3-4 PP clones that I've traded for here on the forum or bought on eBay.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Cjw - Not sure you've sussed JR just yet 

JR - that is one awesome generous offer. Thank you. Though I'm going to pass - If I needed it real bad enough I'm sure I'd make a plan to get one.

In fact as soon as I get the chance - I'm making a seal tube sniper and a ring hunter - those are 2 frames that have been on my bucket list for ages... Luckily BH has sanctioned their reproduction (as long as he he noted for the design).


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

I believe Nathan's products are a bargain for the quality of them. And he stands behind them 100%. You can get almost everything you need at Simple Shot. Name another Slingshot maker where you can do that.

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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Actually Nathan's sales are awesome - always end up missing out - but they from an import cost point of view often put the right below extra fees. And the quality is always great. His bands sets and pouches are awesome.

It was one of these sales which actually pretty price-matched the rip-off that swayed me not to get the Chinese at that point. Rather have the real deal in better plastic.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

A+ Slingshots has everything needed including ammo and ammo magnet lanyard. Several options for extra bands and tubes. You can get it all from Pocket Predator with the exception of ammo. However I'll continue to order my ammo on eBay since I can get 1,000 rounds of 3/8 for $18.95 and not have to pay a retail slingshot company their retail markup.

And getting back on track with the topic. I'm still impressed by the high quality of the HDPE Chinese Scout on eBay. I put that thing through the mill and back shooting it with 1/2 steel balls and beating it with a hammer against my anvil. Then I was really impressed that I could hang the anvil from a nylon rope through the fork holes and go off and leave it for an hour without failing. And the price is right.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Always baffles me that people complain about the cost of a $40 Slingshot while there taking a picture of their cheap Slingshot with a $800 I-phone.????

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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Jolly Roger said:


> A+ Slingshots has everything needed including ammo and ammo magnet lanyard. Several options for extra bands and tubes. You can get it all from Pocket Predator with the exception of ammo. However I'll continue to order my ammo on eBay since I can get 1,000 rounds of 3/8 for $18.95 and not have to pay a retail slingshot company their retail markup.
> 
> And getting back on track with the topic. I'm still impressed by the high quality of the HDPE Chinese Scout on eBay. I put that thing through the mill and back shooting it with 1/2 steel balls and beating it with a hammer against my anvil. Then I was really impressed that I could hang the anvil from a nylon rope through the fork holes and go off and leave it for an hour without failing. And the price is right.


 Just kills you to say anything positive about Simple Shot doesn't it.? You may not like Nathan but he's won the last 3 east coast Slingshot tournaments with his own design says something doesn't it.?

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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Check, my phone is Chinese, a Xiaomi, and costs 150 euros. It is not cheap in any case, but it is something I use daily to talk to my son through Viber, surf the internet, etc. A slingshot is a slingshot. I don't mind paying 40 euros to get one, I can save up for a 1-2 months, but I do need to be sure it fits me well. 
On topic, the scout is nice and all, but really isn't all that comfortable compared to frames with palmswells. It does dig a bit in my hand when the bands are a bit stronger than normal. On the other hand it is very accurate, as it is very easy to line it up correctly. I really can't shoot it now because of Samuraisamoht's challenge, so I am not sure whether I'll like it more than the scorpion or not.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

The Scout is an accurate shooter but no comparison to the Scorpion in comfort of grip or accuracy.


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Shooters determine accuracy, not slingshots.


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## Jonesy22 (Feb 14, 2018)

AMEN MJ, CJW, BOOTSMAN, ROSCOE!!!! Just couldn't quote all of you. I'll keep my money here....


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## MOJAVE MO (Apr 11, 2018)

Jolly Roger said:


> A+ Slingshots has everything needed including ammo and ammo magnet lanyard. Several options for extra bands and tubes. You can get it all from Pocket Predator with the exception of ammo. However I'll continue to order my ammo on eBay since I can get 1,000 rounds of 3/8 for $18.95 and not have to pay a retail slingshot company their retail markup.
> 
> And getting back on track with the topic. I'm still impressed by the high quality of the HDPE Chinese Scout on eBay. I put that thing through the mill and back shooting it with 1/2 steel balls and beating it with a hammer against my anvil. Then I was really impressed that I could hang the anvil from a nylon rope through the fork holes and go off and leave it for an hour without failing. And the price is right.


Yowza! An anvil in the fork holes! Don't tell the millennials!


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Yes MJ, the shooter is accurate, not the frame. But a comfortable frame does help. I think where the scout excels is at its versatility though. I mean, someone that is undecided on bands/tubes, ott/ttf, will find his way with the scout. Ocularis axiom looks promising, but the lack of a palmswells... I think I am spoiled already... Any simple shot frames sporting a nice and comfy grip?


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Jolly Roger said:


> The Scout is an accurate shooter but no comparison to the Scorpion in comfort of grip or accuracy.


 In who's hands some of the most accurate shooters in the world are the Chinese shooters and none of them are shooting Pocket predators or anything made in the US. If you could put a group of Slingshots in a mechanical rest and shoot them all they would all be equally accurate.

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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

If one Slingshot was the most accurate Slingshot everybody in world would want that Slingshot. But it's not the case. Look at the top shooters in the world. Their all shooting something different. The bands and pouches are almost more important than the fork.

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## theTurk (Feb 25, 2016)

I like both scorpion and the scout. The scout is a lot more versatile as it can be shoot both ott and ttf , accept flip clips and can also be shot thumb brace. Whereas the scorpion is TTF only and can only be shot in a pinch grip fashion. The Scout is a better frame for anyone trying to get into slingshot shooting. In which they can figure out their style of shooting.

JR...learning how to wrap n tuck is a slingshot basic. You really should think of it like that. I think anyone would recommend you learn it. There's nothing wrong with that.

Ps. The scout accommodates flip clips, the scorpion doesn't accommodate any other attachment system other than wrap n tuck. I will leave it at that...

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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

theTurk said:


> I like both scorpion and the scout. The scout is a lot more versatile as it can be shoot both ott and ttf , accept flip clips and can also be shot thumb brace. Whereas the scorpion is TTF only and can only be shot in a pinch grip fashion. The Scout is a better frame for anyone trying to get into slingshot shooting. In which they can figure out their style of shooting.
> 
> JR...learning how to wrap n tuck is a slingshot basic. You really should think of it like that. I think anyone would recommend you learn it. There's nothing wrong with that.
> 
> ...


 plus with the Scouts it's easy to fine tune your band length with the flip clips. And just as easy to install looped tubes over the top or through the forks. Great for someone starting out.

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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

JR actually has a really impressive collection of frames. He's loyal to PP - and thats cool. In the same way I like apple pie. Getting all sweaty about that is a waste of energy.

Its worth noting he's a huge grass-roots promoter of the sport.


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## Hulla Baloo (Nov 25, 2017)

There's the Python issue Matthew... :stickpoke:


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

That's one loyal Python. The question you need to figure is why the clips keep reappearing.


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## Hulla Baloo (Nov 25, 2017)

Nah, the Colt Python, Jolly's more than a casual fan... I think it may be the Official Revolver of Slingshooting on the other forum.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

mattwalt said:


> JR actually has a really impressive collection of frames. He's loyal to PP - and thats cool. In the same way I like apple pie. Getting all sweaty about that is a waste of energy.
> 
> Its worth noting he's a huge grass-roots promoter of the sport.


 I'm a loyal Performance Catapults guy but I don't put down other makers slingshots or try to convince people that an SPS is more accurate than other makers slingshots. Like I'm getting royalties or something. Bill Hays ,Nathan, Jim Harris and many other makers are making slingshots just as accurate as any out there. And equally accurate with each other's. It a disservice to other makers to promote that their products aren't as good or Accurate.

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## 3danman (Mar 29, 2012)

Jolly Roger said:


> The Scout is an accurate shooter but no comparison to the Scorpion in comfort of grip or accuracy.


Both traits, comfort and accuracy, are irrefutably subjective elements. Not to mention the multitude of other reasons why one might pick the Scout over the Scorpion, as other users have mentioned. Enhanced band attachment with Flip Clips, catering to any of the 3 major grips (hammer, support, pinch) along with any form of elastic, OTT or TTF. We could go on. The Scorpion can't do any of that.

Edit: This should be clear enough, but just in case, I'm not picking on the Scorpion. If you want a high quality, inexpensive shooter dedicated to a pinch grip, TTF, and flatbands, I'm sure it's a fine choice. But there are plenty of reasons to choose the Scout instead, as I mentioned. Everybody on this forum should know by now that no slingshot is inherently better than the other. Some people are even competitively accurate without using a frame at all, hence frameless shooting. Just thought I'd hit that nail on the head because I know it's bound to be misinterpreted at some point.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Jack of all trades master of none. There was a thread some time back that pointed out that the more advanced the slingshot design the more user specific it became. Specific in ott or ttf, left or right hand etc. For me, a slingshot that allows me to grip it in the same manner with each shot taken cause me to be more accurate than a slingshot that causes my grip to vary from shot to shot. Sure Rufuss shot with a forked stick but I'll take a frame built to fit my hand over a forked stick any day.

I'm sure someone has noticed that the PP Scorpion does not accept Pro Clips and is wrap and tuck only Mr. Turk. I've bought several wrap and tuck slingshots from you if you check your records....and I'd have to admit that it was the Scorpion that caused me to knuckle down and figure wrap and tuck down....Got it right by watching Bill Hays video showing how to fold the end of the band back over itself.

Yes I shoot my Python a lot but the Orange molded Scorpion I traded for is a favorite mainly because of the grip and accuracy when I shoot it. I can't afford to buy a couple dozen Scorpions or Ergo Cast Rangers to sell, trade or give to new shooters so I had something simple and easy to shoot cult out of flat steel that is indestructible for new shooters to get caught by the slingshot bug. The only commercial frame I've found that is less expensive and just as strong that I have found is the HDPE Chinese Scout. But I still prefer the Big Iron over that to deal out to new shooters in the area.

Actually, I personally see no need to defend my thoughts, ideas or choices but really do appreciate all the pot shots some take and even more so appreciate those few who keep on hitting the like button and posting some supportive comments. Otherwise I'd feel like a right wing conservative being attacked by hate monger liberals who are so intolerant that they will not tolerate anyone whose opinions differ from theirs.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Jolly Roger said:


> Jack of all trades master of none. There was a thread some time back that pointed out that the more advanced the slingshot design the more user specific it became. Specific in ott or ttf, left or right hand etc. For me, a slingshot that allows me to grip it in the same manner with each shot taken cause me to be more accurate than a slingshot that causes my grip to vary from shot to shot. Sure Rufuss shot with a forked stick but I'll take a frame built to fit my hand over a forked stick any day.
> 
> I'm sure someone has noticed that the PP Scorpion does not accept Pro Clips and is wrap and tuck only Mr. Turk. I've bought several wrap and tuck slingshots from you if you check your records....and I'd have to admit that it was the Scorpion that caused me to knuckle down and figure wrap and tuck down....Got it right by watching Bill Hays video showing how to fold the end of the band back over itself.
> 
> ...


 seems to me your the one pushing one Slingshot no one else. Pushing an agenda against Nathan's products. No one else that I can see . Seems to me you don't tolerate others opinions. A lot of people love the Scouts and the Torques and Nathan's other slingshots . You don't so be it. I've never shot any of Bill Hays slingshots well other than the Rangers. Doesn't mean their not great for other people. I'm not going to put his slingshots down. But you insist on putting Simple Shots stuff down.

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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

My of my has someone rubbed a nerve raw? Some sure get their feathers ruffled easy. Should I stop posting anything to keep from offending a few or one?


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Jolly Roger said:


> My of my has someone rubbed a nerve raw? Some sure get their feathers ruffled easy. Should I stop posting anything to keep from offending a few or one?


 please keep posting if you think offending is something your good at. Don't give a rats A- s.

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## 3danman (Mar 29, 2012)

Jolly Roger said:


> My of my has someone rubbed a nerve raw? Some sure get their feathers ruffled easy. Should I stop posting anything to keep from offending a few or one?


Sorry, but using the ol' faithful "I don't get offended, stop being so thin-skinned" argument doesn't work as well as you think. As soon as you run out of arguments, you always default back to that. It's okay to be wrong. It's okay to change your opinions. We won't make fun of you. As soon as you can accept that others' viewpoints are just as valid, and often more accurate and truthful than you might think, the sooner we can get back to talking about slingshots.

By the way, you aren't fooling anybody by playing the conservative victim part. If you truly think that conservatives are generally more accepting of others' viewpoints than liberals, you desperately need to be more educated about historical and contemporary social issues. It's never been easier than it is now... Just open up a new tab and start reading. I can help if you'd like.  This is coming from a moderate whose comments on conservative-minded forums such as this (and others) have been criticized and attacked simply for representing a more liberal viewpoint... One that, although more liberal, isn't really liberal at all.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

You guys are right.....I do wonder why the subject isn't contained to slingshots vs. criticizing others for having an opinion that differs from the norm.


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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

Come on guys, no need to fight each other. There can be no objective comparison of any two things, let alone slingshots. 
Personally, as a new guy on the block, I tend to prefer the first "real" slingshot I got. Which after the 4 week challenge is bound to change. The only thing I think is is important for me is a nice hand web support. I "think".


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Agreed and you made the point I was wanting to get across. Both the Scorpion and the Ergo Cast Ranger give that hand web support. Better than any other frames I've shot so far. But then I only have fewer than 50 slingshots to compare to.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

But some people don't like the web hand support is my point. Some people like PFS, Hammer grip , naturals , finger braced. What one person likes someone else hates. It's up to the individual. Doesn't make anyone wrong. Just what's more comfortable to them.

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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Some people like large slingshots others like small ones.

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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

So if I am reading what you are saying correctly, I should not post what I like or what works and does not work for me. If I like the web support of the Scorpion or Cast Ranger I should not say so because someone else might not like it. I have never stated that anyone else is required to agree with me or have a similar opinion. Why is this such an issue with you???? Leave it go.


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## Alfred E.M. (Jul 5, 2014)

*I'd like to pass some gas in this thread as well. My wife is good at 'retired budgeting' so I have a few bux in disposable every month - not a lot but it actually goes pretty far. I buy the designs that hook my attention and desire - that turn me on, and there's no room for politics when making these decisions ... it's a passion and by definition, not rational. So, I can shop the world for what I thrive on without prejudice or provincial attitudes - I allow myself that luxury in this one area of my life.*

*In the past 90 days, I've bought from Pocket Predator, Dankung, Wasp, Ali Express, and Simple Shot. In the past 4 years, I've bought at least 10 frames from Simple Shot (+ elastic, ammo, etc) ... including my first, a blk/blk Scout, which I later sold bc of a lengthy small frame preference. I recently bought this same $15 clone and IMO, it's not crappy at all - it's molded one piece frame of heavy strong synthetic that feels great in my hand - nice to have this design 2.0 again at such a budget price. If that bothers anyone, all I can say is - book some extra time with your therapist.*

*The world is made up of creators and copiers. Mercedes doesn't stop originating even tho they know their ideas will be quickly ripped off - that's who they are, that's what they do. Creativity is a big part of human nature - there will never be a shortage of ideas and entrepreneurs. *


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Jolly Roger said:


> So if I am reading what you are saying correctly, I should not post what I like or what works and does not work for me. If I like the web support of the Scorpion or Cast Ranger I should not say so because someone else might not like it. I have never stated that anyone else is required to agree with me or have a similar opinion. Why is this such an issue with you???? Leave it go.


 It's not just an issue with me. Trust me.

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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

What Alfred said.

Also JR often mentions A+ / Flatcat / Ooak Forge... Many other brands other than PP. He's allowed to voice his opinions - same as you guys. Its one of America's most important pillars after all - doesn't mean you're obliged to agree. But it does imply you should at least allow him to express - occasionally there are some great points missed...

Also I can almost guarantee that everyone who's up in arms about 'cheap' Chinese products are to some degree guilty of buying them. Even if its from Full-Red-Blooded American companies. Every time you grab that bargain item off a shelf - chances are its from the East. Tools, clothes, knives, kitchenware...


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Straw man arguments about cell phones and vape gear don't change the fact that cloners are taking the designs that members of this forum produced and building them out of garbage using slave wages and then selling them.
Maybe it's that I've been around longer and had personal interactions with all these guys, either on the forum when they were more active or in person. I've spent time with them in Alverton or Alabama or at Blue Skeen's house. Or they've come out to my back yard to take part in the Midwest Slingshot Tournament that I used to host.
I would never buy anything that takes money out of these guys' pockets because they're my friends in real life and I know what they go through to get their products designed and built. Do what you want, but that's my angle. I'm not making some statement about global economic policy, I'm telling you my thoughts on something that isn't theoretical to me. The internet takes the humanity out of things and reduces everyone to a nickname on a screen so it's easy to say "Screw that guy trying to make a reasonable profit off something he worked for two years to get produced!! Here's one on eBay for $2!!!"
That's not how it works when you know people in real life. At least I hope it's not.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

MJ - thats a great point. I'd hazard a guess and say that is everyone knew these guys on a personal level they'd feel exactly the same way and would support these guys to the same degree without hesitation.

Though lets be honest. Firstly - The Chinese are not reproducing products anywhere near close to the guys you mention. Secondly consider at what point a company becomes a mass-producer and the implications of this, at what point does the human element get removed. Thirdly - If you don't live in the USA and are dealing what is essentially a faceless company would you expect these 'foreigners' to be Patriotic to the US and loyal to US companies. Any more so as any other company or country (other than their own).

Its easy to stand in your home country and demand that people devote the same respect to your country as you have, its normal. But I'm going to fight for my own home country long before I would yours - thats expected.

Its well know that this Chinese product is of superior quality - AND we all know its a knock-off (so we're not being cheated) - so the morals buying these are the purchaser's conscience only. Nathan does a great job of personalising his company and he has a very strong loyal following (even from abroad) - and too be fair these knock-off so far have been bought by people who own, or plan to actual SS products.

The question is - would it be expected pdf I were Chinese to buy the knock-off to support my fellow countrymen, and save some cash - Or shell out full dollar for the real deal? I suspect it may be both ;-P


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## Hulla Baloo (Nov 25, 2017)

My grandfather and John Harvey Kellogg were pals. I feel guilty every time I buy generic corn flakes.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

M.J said:


> Straw man arguments about cell phones and vape gear don't change the fact that cloners are taking the designs that members of this forum produced and building them out of garbage using slave wages and then selling them.
> Maybe it's that I've been around longer and had personal interactions with all these guys, either on the forum when they were more active or in person. I've spent time with them in Alverton or Alabama or at Blue Skeen's house. Or they've come out to my back yard to take part in the Midwest Slingshot Tournament that I used to host.
> I would never buy anything that takes money out of these guys' pockets because they're my friends in real life and I know what they go through to get their products designed and built. Do what you want, but that's my angle. I'm not making some statement about global economic policy, I'm telling you my thoughts on something that isn't theoretical to me. The internet takes the humanity out of things and reduces everyone to a nickname on a screen so it's easy to say "Screw that guy trying to make a reasonable profit off something he worked for two years to get produced!! Here's one on eBay for $2!!!"
> That's not how it works when you know people in real life. At least I hope it's not.


 Does no good to say anything MJ some here could care less about supporting our vendors. Their in a race to the bottom and I hope their happy when they get there.

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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Cjw - EVERYONE in this thread supports simple shot or has at some point. EVEN JR.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

mattwalt said:


> Cjw - EVERYONE in this thread supports simple shot or has at some point. EVEN JR.


 And there's a Santa Clause and a Easter Bunny Too.

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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

MJ, the cellphone argument wasn't mine. Someone said about 800 dollar phones, and I had to settle the matter. 
My arguments aren't "strawman". You wish me to care? Ok, as I said, I do care. If I like the frame, I will get an original too. Or you think that it's fair to pay a dear price for something I have doubts I will come to like? Would that be fair then? It would, maybe, if I was paid fairly, but I am not, so I don't spend my money carelessly.
Oh, and I like how you all anti-chinese, who buy from Walmart, which is a Chinese market, forget the fact that I do plan to get the original. Thank god Nathan got it.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

And one of the reasons we don't get paid fairly is we've farmed everything that's made to China Duh.

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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Cjw - that reminds me of something... but its a whole different story. Let me ask you a question - ever live outside the US? Its really easy to judge outside of context. Its also really easy to be opinionated without the full picture.

Your Alloy SPS - is an unsanctioned rip-off. Just saying. Poor JH is going hungry - though is it OK because you own a few real deals?

And if you're a knife/multitool guy PM a photo of all of them - I'll point out which ones are Chinese (Even if Big Brand US branded).


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

One more post and I'm done with this topic.
Bringing up cellphones and silverware and nationalism instead of talking about the right and wrong of cloning slingshots is the very definition of a straw man argument. 
I'm not anti-Chinese. I'm not anti-anybody. Nationalism doesn't interest me. Traditional Chinese slingshots made by Chinese people are some of my favorites. I'm talking about how on the ground level that I don't like people taking money out of the pockets of my friends by stealing their designs. 
If you don't care what I think, I'm perfectly ok with that and we can still be internet friends. If you (and not just you, Skropi, I'm not singling you out) would just say "I understand that you think this is wrong but I don't " it would clear the air and save argument.
However, the fact that I or anyone else sometimes shops at Wal-Mart is immaterial to this discussion and if you go in that direction you're just putting unnecessary wear on the keyboard of your Chinese cellphone or laptop.


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## Hobbit With A Slingshot (Mar 14, 2017)

:yeahthat:


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

MJ (and Cjw) - This would be my last post as well.

I agree - its fundamentally wrong. To produce and sell a knock-off of anyone's work without prior consent is wrong.

My only point is. Is it more immoral ethically to be producing high-end US (or UK for that matter) made slingshots based on others designs and approaches (even by friends - who may or mayn't be starving). OR is it more of an issue because these guys are Chinese and have compiled a mass-produced frame and are mass producing? Its my feeling both are equally wrong.

And I think the Walmat analogy is relevant - If you are questioning ethics regarding stealing from friends... Its all part of the same problem you are highlighting. Think its time you question the source of everything you purchase based on your support local-made sources (from your burgers to your files and glues). Its a 'log in your eye' thing. We try as much as possible - and its pretty much impossible.

You guys opened this Pandora's box.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

mattwalt said:


> Cjw - that reminds me of something... but its a whole different story. Let me ask you a question - ever live outside the US? Its really easy to judge outside of context. Its also really easy to be opinionated without the full picture.
> 
> Your Alloy SPS - is an unsanctioned rip-off. Just saying. Poor JH is going hungry - though is it OK because you own a few real deals?
> 
> And if you're a knife/multitool guy PM a photo of all of them - I'll point out which ones are Chinese (Even if Big Brand US branded).


 No the aluminum Slingshot is not a ripoff. Jim patent is not for the shape it's for metal core slingshots not an all metal Slingshot. And I own no metal core Clone SPS's. And I have lived out of the Country.

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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Its a copy Cjw - its the same shape - thats falls under intellectual property copyright - not patent.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

The names copyrighted not the shape . Talk to Jim Harris. They can make all the slingshots they want as long is not metal cored. And it was a gift besides. And I'm not recommending it over a Real SPS am I ? Because it's Cheaper.

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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

No you're wrong Cjw - the shape falls under the Berne Convention (I've explained before) - its not the process I'm referring to in this case its the design. Its the same shape as a SPS. So its by extension a copy - and you could go as far to say its an extremely poor copy at that as they only got the Core done.

This is the same as buying the Chinese IMO - glass houses etc. Even as a gift it was money taken away from Jim. I know this an extreme example - but its valid.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

Man this has been some good entertainment. No need to watch you tube comedies when you can sit and read the slingshot forum.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

LOL JR - thought you'd enjoy this ;-). Talk about hang ups.

Hope you are sitting back with a whiskey in hand.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

mattwalt said:


> No you're wrong Cjw - the shape falls under the Berne Convention (I've explained before) - its not the process I'm referring to in this case its the design. Its the same shape as a SPS. So its by extension a copy - and you could go as far to say its an extremely poor copy at that as they only got the Core done.
> 
> This is the same as buying the Chinese IMO - glass houses etc. Even as a gift it was money taken away from Jim. I know this an extreme example - but its valid.


 Not According to the person that Owns the patent and the copy right. I just got off the phone with Jim Harris and he said I'm 100% correct the Shape is not part of the patent or copyright.

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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

LOL - again until Jim is dead for 50 years - you're wrong. If he doesn't chase the manufacturer (probably costs being they're UK based) thats purely up to him. But legally its a copy.


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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

I was told by one of the old old timers just a day or so ago that the SPS is not patented. I thought it was and have read right here on this forum as well as other places that the SPS is in fact copyrighted as is now once again being pointed out. However, that patent is worthless outside of the U.S. I actually have never read anything about any simple shot or pocket predator or any other slingshot being patented. Thus making copies a moral issue and I am sure that is a subjective issue and would suggest that those standing on the moral issue have plenty of immoral issues in their lives that they cling to.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

I just got off the phone with Jim Harris and your wrong. So you know more about the patent and Copyright than Jim and his Lawyer?

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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

Actually - if a Chinese company mass produced Scorpions/HTS/Ferret Hunters/Topshots would that be OK? BH has given those to Public domain only based on quoting as his design... Another layer to consider.


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## mattwalt (Jan 5, 2017)

I'm a designer - understanding law regarding design and intellectual property is of huge importance.

Ask them to look upon the Berne Convention - and countries signed up under. They may well actually have cases and be able to reach out to countries patents don't cover. Based on design/shape and not process. Unless he is guilty himself of using someone else's design.


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## Hobbit With A Slingshot (Mar 14, 2017)

"It was impossible to get a conversation going, everybody was talking too much." --Yogi Berra


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## Jonesy22 (Feb 14, 2018)

Cjw said:


> M.J said:
> 
> 
> > Straw man arguments about cell phones and vape gear don't change the fact that cloners are taking the designs that members of this forum produced and building them out of garbage using slave wages and then selling them.
> ...


Agreed guys...never knew there was so many ways to say "cheap". Its respect also. Thank you to everyone who looks to buy original


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## MOJAVE MO (Apr 11, 2018)

I had a father-in-law who bought thousands of cheap plastic toy lunch boxes from China to sell to Toys-R-Us.

After receiving in the US I would open all the boxes, swap the Made in China stickers, and reload into new shipping boxes before shipping to TrU. His daughter was hot, but he was a slimeball.

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## Jolly Roger (Aug 14, 2017)

I have two originals I'll sell to anyone who will pay the price,


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## MOJAVE MO (Apr 11, 2018)

But seriously. I am casting all arguments on this matter to be moot. Even with rules and regulations and fairness in place I myself barely lived through two of my own companies where we were swallowed by 'knockoffs'. In the third and last operation we took 25 years of getting kicked in the naughts and finally figured out how to relate to our customers who were telling us to our face that our stuff was 'just the same but $$$ cheaper'. I feel like I was the first to berate a customer if I heard they were buying outside of their zipcode! This was before we could hammer somebody virtually. Ah...those we the days!

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## skropi (Mar 22, 2018)

First of all I didn't bring up the cellphone argument. I simply answered to whoever did. Secondly, Walmart is the same, people get hungry while the Chinese get rich, same thing really, just different people loosing money. 
Cjw, if we go to the "patent" theme, everything becomes interesting, as Simple shot holds no patent on the scout. By the way, a shape cannot be patented. So, if it is alright the sps knock off because there is no patent breach, how come the Chinese clone isn't, while there is no patent breach there either?
Anyway, I am all in for the original creators of anything getting their dues, I never disagreed to that. All I said is that morals and the law are two different things, and we have to decide what we take as a standard, one or the other, as they don't always coincide. 
(Btw, I will most probably get ocularis axiom from Simple Shot, when I get something from Nathan, as I don't like having to use a screwdriver with the flip clips)


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