# I thought i would make this today



## lucifer93 (May 4, 2010)

I thought i would make this today so i could make up some band sets when i get Dan's Scallops Slingshot in bronze. I think Dan is one of the most talented slingshot makers on this forum. I hope you didn't mind me knocking this up my friend it's my homarge to you, Scallops in Multiplex.


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## harpersgrace (Jan 28, 2010)

Very nice, I'm asking for a couple of power tools for Xmas so I can give board cuts another go.....too hard with a bum arm other wise


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## ZDP-189 (Mar 14, 2010)

I'd prefer you didn't make this design without written permission.


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

The curves of a Scallops are lost in this frame. Dan tried to bring the BMW curve tension over, and successfully so. But in wood, it does not work.

Scallops is a metal design, to me.


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## Gandolphin (Jun 28, 2010)

ZDP-189 said:


> I'd prefer you didn't make this design without written permission.


it's not for sale, he doesn't need permission what so ever,
nice slingshot!


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

ZDP-189 said:


> I'd prefer you didn't make this design without written permission.


I'd prefer that you didn't post pictures of your slingshots (especially detailed drawings) on this forum if you don't want anyone to make one for himself.


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## Wingshooter (Dec 24, 2009)

Dayhiker said:


> I'd prefer you didn't make this design without written permission.


I'd prefer that you didn't post pictures of your slingshots (especially detailed drawings) on this forum if you don't want anyone to make one for himself.
[/quote]

Amen Brother


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## ZDP-189 (Mar 14, 2010)

Dayhiker said:


> I'd prefer you didn't make this design without written permission.


I'd prefer that you didn't post pictures of your slingshots (especially detailed drawings) on this forum if you don't want anyone to make one for himself.
[/quote]

Images now removed.


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

Folks, we had this discussion before.

My opinion remains unchanged. If the designer of a slingshot does not want others to copy his design, then it is unethical to do it anyway. Publishing images does not mean that it is OK for others to copy it. That may be legal, but disrespectful.

If designers that do not want others to copy without prior permission no longer post images here, the forum would suffer an enormous loss.

Let me suggest a compromise.

If you present a design and do not want others to copy it, then clearly state these rules next to image.

I know that Dan has posted his preference several times here, but we have way too many threads for newbies to go through them.

Dan, I would greatly appreciate if you could re-post the images and add the necessary sentence. The "Scallops" story is one of the most interesting threads ever posted here, and I would be heartbroken if it gets diminished because of a mere misunderstanding.

Thanks

Jörg


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## ZDP-189 (Mar 14, 2010)

JoergS said:


> Folks, we had this discussion before.
> 
> My opinion remains unchanged. If the designer of a slingshot does not want others to copy his design, then it is unethical to do it anyway. Publishing images does not mean that it is OK for others to copy it. That may be legal, but disrespectful.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the support. lucifer93 and I have an understanding now. It is other members of this forum that know well that I specifically don't want the two commercial designs (Scallops or T1) copied and yet still support copying that bother me, particularly mods whose views may be _mis_understood to represent forum policy. In the cases of the Scallops and T1 I have been very clear. I have temporarily removed all my images from the forum and the content of my blog until this can be cleared up.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

I was looking for a place where hobbyists could share and critique one another's ideas and show each other what we do.

Joerg and Dan, if this is the direction you want to take this forum in, then I will be gone. There is something ugly and commercial in your approach and I don't like it. "Designers", indeed. For crissake, your makin' *slingshots*!


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## huey224 (Apr 12, 2010)

that looks great!


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

Dayhiker, what is wrong with respecting a man's wishes regarding something he invented?

My designs are free for all, as long as no commercial interests are involved. Dan has a different approach that I respect. We are not "taking" this forum anywhere..


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

I have a few questions, then. Why would anyone post copyrighted images on a public forum for non-professional hobbyists? To me, it is a little like posting recipes on a cooking forum and asking everyone to please have respect for me and do not use this recipe.

I know some folks are of the opinion, "If you want to copy it, then do it, just don't post any pics." Well, I think this makes sneaks out of us. What is disrespectful about copying someone's slingshot? I don't get it. Ever hear of the expression, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"?

The exception, of course, pertains to our professional makers, who derive their income from manufacturing their own designs -- to copy theirs IS disrespectful; still, as long as it is for yourself only, it is only borderline unethical. And as far as the specific case in question, I detect no disrespect on Lucifer's part, quite the opposite.

In conclusion, I think this forum needs to make an official ruling of some kind about copying each others' slingshots. Let's settle this.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

BTW, Lucifer, I hope that slingshot is made of multiplex. And I think you did a great job on it.


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## Rayshot (Feb 1, 2010)

Dayhiker said:


> I was looking for a place where hobbyists could share and critique one another's ideas and show each other what we do.
> 
> Joerg and Dan, if this is the direction you want to take this forum in, then I will be gone. There is something ugly and commercial in your approach and I don't like it. "Designers", indeed. For crissake, your makin' *slingshots*!


I am here also to learn from other slingshot enthusiasts. Bill I am not sure why you are so upset. This is the way it goes in all industries.

One thing though is clear with Dan's slingshots. His designs are such, that someone is not likely to by chance make one like his. As can be seen his designs are different enough to want to protect, copyright, patent, what ever, because of it's desirability and marketability.

I fully comprehended and recognized he put the thought and efforts into coming up with that idea first. So just like all the other industries that protect their variation on an existing product, he wants to protect it in the same way.

Why not, we are all trying to make a living. So, if this assists Dan in caring for himself, his family and extending the generosity he has already extended to ones on this forum. Respect is the word.


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## harpersgrace (Jan 28, 2010)

ZDP I'm sorry if you feel my saying that he did a good job was disrepecting you, I did not see this as a copy of your design since there was no hole in the grip and none of the "scallops" that make your design unique, to me this looked like a inspired by design and as such I still consider it to be a nice looking slingshot. And since i do not want anyone to have my veiw" _mis_understood to represent forum policy" I will be asking Aaron to remove me from that possition today..


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## whipcrackdeadbunny (May 22, 2010)

The design is quite different, no? There are not the curves or cutaways of the true 'Scallops' but it is very close, and Dan doesn't ask much of us, just the occasional design of many. I think I have to go for general respect, and abide by his wishes, but he shouldn't be surprised that people do and want to copy him, his designs are outstanding. 
Nice catty though, Luci.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Ray, here's what bothers me. About your post: You said, "I fully comprehended and recognized he put the thought and efforts into coming up with that idea first. So just like all the other industries that protect their variation on an existing product, he wants to protect it in the same way."

This is my position on the subject. I didn't think this was an "industry" oriented forum. I thought it was a "hobby" oriented forum. From your industry point of view, if Dan or anybody else wants to make a slingshot to sell, then he should act like a professional and design it in private and just put it up for sale -- the way it is done in industry.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

harpersgrace said:


> ZDP I'm sorry if you feel my saying that he did a good job was disrepecting you, I did not see this as a copy of your design since there was no hole in the grip and none of the "scallops" that make your design unique, to me this looked like a inspired by design and as such I still consider it to be a nice looking slingshot. And since i do not want anyone to have my veiw" _mis_understood to represent forum policy" I will be asking Aaron to remove me from that possition today..


Harpersgrace, I just did the same.


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## jmplsnt (Jan 1, 2010)

To copy someone's work for your own personal user may not be 100% ethical but I'm certain more egregious sins have been committed. I have blown up my share of copiers, both here and elsewhere, that I thought deserved it as they were stealing a commercial design the makers use to feed their families and pay bills..

I don't want to step on toes here but to me it's hard to understand in my half-breed, double-wide dwelling in the Ozarks way why someone would post designs, blog them, and then be upset when someone makes a single "copy" for a personal user. It didn't show up as one of three hundred in the Classifieds. The man made a copy for himself, that's all, and then was honest and open enough about it to share it with the world. He didn't skulk in the shadows or claim it as his own.

I'm a grown man and plenty capable of making decisions on my own and am not particularly happy about this. Yes, I know it states "everything copyrighted" and believe that should be respected, but all this over a single personal user is a little much for me. I thought we were here to share with one another in the pursuit of slingshot happiness and now I can see I was terribly wrong.

You know, after some thought, I have decided to have mine protected as well. So I had better not see any more natural forks on here and if they resemble what I've posted below then you'll really get it:





Like I said earlier, I'm a grown man, plenty capable of making my own decisions, but if it gets bad enough for DH to pull out I'm right behind him. I know I'd be no great loss but I've got to maintain a semblance of dignity.


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## Rayshot (Feb 1, 2010)

Dayhiker said:


> Ray, here's what bothers me. About your post: You said, "I fully comprehended and recognized he put the thought and efforts into coming up with that idea first. So just like all the other industries that protect their variation on an existing product, he wants to protect it in the same way."
> 
> This is my position on the subject. I didn't think this was an "industry" oriented forum. I thought it was a "hobby" oriented forum. From your industry point of view, if Dan or anybody else wants to make a slingshot to sell, then he should act like a professional and design it in private and just put it up for sale -- the way it is done in industry.


I see where you are coming from. Understandable.


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## hawk2009 (Dec 30, 2009)

Big do about nothing whats the original scallop made from metal. this is made from wood not the same only in shape if you want to make it your own add holes so it can take tubes like I do on mine.This really is rediculous you have the whole world to sell to you cant possibly supply every slingshot enthusiast, their is probably one born every minuite move on.


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## The Gopher (Aug 25, 2010)

I agree with DH and jmplsnt and the others who basically agree that nobody who posts a picture, drawing, etc on a hobbyist forum should be upset if another hobbyist makes a one-off for themselves.

One of the most astonishing things to me when i joined this forum was the amount of bickering spent on this issue...ITS JUST A SLINGSHOT! If you are designing a slingshot and selling them as a source of income for you family and wish to have it protected then do what DH said and don't ever post it here, just go to ebay or whatever and make your money.

I come from from the traditional and primitive archery world and it is a completly different atmosphere. I have emailed Jack Harrison who is a well known PROFESSIONAL bowyer making his living from bow building, and he freely shared his knowledge to me when i had questions. Why? because he probably knew that he was good enough of a bowyer that even if i made a copy of one of his bows or used his techniques i probably couldn't pull it off like he could, but at the same time he was glad to share his knowledge to advance the sport.

I would venture to bet that nearly everyone on this site is a do-it-yourself kind of person and wanting to make your own stuff is just part of who you are, so when you see a pattern that is made of wood and has two protrusions on one end and a handle on the other you say to yourself, "i can make that".

jmplsnt: "You know, after some thought, I have decided to have mine protected as well. So I had better not see any more natural forks on here and if they resemble what I've posted below then you'll really get it:"

that made me chuckle, but the sad truth is that the way things are going on here someone probably will try to protect a natural.

Perhaps there could be a forum added for commercial designs and discussions, anything posted there shoudl be considered "protect" even though i still think that isn't what this site is about i'd like to see a compromise. If this new commercial forum is added, then anything posted outside the commercial forum should be considered fair game for personal use.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Well, it all comes down to the question of what kind of community we want to be. Joerg has posted his work freely and couldn't care less who makes one for himself. Dan copyrights his work -- even his avatar -- and doesn't want it copied. So do we post here to share with each other, or do we post here to advertise? Any copyrighted stuff should be in the vendors' section in my opinion.


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## hawk2009 (Dec 30, 2009)

Dayhiker said:


> Well, it all comes down to the question of what kind of community we want to be. Joerg has posted his work freely and couldn't care less who makes one for himself. Dan copyrights his work -- even his avatar -- and doesn't want it copied. So do we post here to share with each other, or do we post here to advertise? Any copyrighted stuff should be in the vendors' section in my opinion.


So right.


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## ZDP-189 (Mar 14, 2010)

harpersgrace said:


> ZDP I'm sorry if you feel my saying that he did a good job was disrepecting you, I did not see this as a copy of your design since there was no hole in the grip and none of the "scallops" that make your design unique, to me this looked like a inspired by design and as such I still consider it to be a nice looking slingshot. And since i do not want anyone to have my veiw" _mis_understood to represent forum policy" I will be asking Aaron to remove me from that possition today..


Sorry, I was speaking of Bill's indignant reaction to my restatement of my wish. I don't recall having seen your post and it was not directed at you. FWIW, I agree that lucifer's slingshot looks elegant and well made and I thank him for the attribution at least. I mean neither him nor you anything but goodwill.

PS/ lucifer please be careful when you shoot that. If you recall my original thread, the scallops design was intended to be cast in thick aluminium or a suitably strong plastic possibly with a steel core. Parts of the structure are very narrow where the stress is greatst and would possibly be dangerous in wood. The same goes for the T1, which is one reason why I don't like their being copied by people who haven't spoken with me. I haven't had the opportunity to examine the multiplex you've used or test your frame so use your good judgement and please wear safety goggles.


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## Rayshot (Feb 1, 2010)

This isn't pointed at anyone simply a unifying thought.

We could all enjoy what each one brings to the forum. Some more, some less, some people only "lurk" and never offer anything.

Appreciate what there is here and be glad for what ever enrichment, humor, good spirit, sharing, fascination, etc. is put forth.


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

Let me add my point of view.
Posting pictures of a new/different slingshot design is one thing... posting pictures AND workable exact size drawings to follow and use as cutout guides is quite another.

Speaking for myself I've posted drawings/patterns and fully expected them to be used and copied. And in fact, I know two of the drawings I posted for free use... one is now in limited production in China, and another was copied, _slightly_ altered and the person then claimed the finished product to be solely his own design.... No big deal to me, I've had many ideas and designs ripped off by much larger entities... industrial knife makers, exercise equipment makers, and even greyhound tracks as well... so I know to expect that sort of behavior.
But when posting just pictures, I fully expect people to try and copy... but without the exact dimensions and process I don't expect any exact copies. If I had stated, that I DON'T want anybody to copy my designs... then they did exactly that AND posted pictures... I WOULD be insulted.

It's insulting enough, when someone out-right takes a design of yours and modifies it only in the slightest then claims it as solely their own... but if I SPECIFICALLY requested that no one copy... then surely you can see where an actual infringement may have occurred.

So to minimize all of that, I know I myself have NOT posted pictures or details of my _actual_ best stuff... and the first you will see of them is AFTER the industrial makers get them and begin production.

Sure some of those already released and shown on the forum will be in production soon... i.e. Jade Dragon, Cowboy etc... but my best and most revolutionary stuff is to important to me to be ripped off and copied immediately... which they will be done soon enough after the manufacturers release anyway.


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

Well, I never thought this forum was for any specific user group. It was supposed to cover all kinds of community members, like the lurkers, shooters, hobby makers, designers, and commercial manufacturers. This forum has seen some of its members even changing their status, which is great. So we have to respect where people are coming from.

"Scallops" is now a commercial design, sold by Hogancastings under Dan's license. That example says enough about why we have to respect the wishes of the designer. What has started as a non-commercial idea is now a commercially produced and sold product.

Come on, guys, this is no reason to resign from a mod position, and it is not even a reason for arguing. If a member posts a design, and adds a request like "please ask me before you copy it", then just honor the man and ask him. It's not asking too much.

Jörg


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## ZDP-189 (Mar 14, 2010)

To be clear I never said I considered that lucifer was unethical nor that we are on bad terms. On the contrary, we chatted, he seems a perfectly nice guy and I wish him the best with this slingshot.I feel bad that we have distracted from his presentation with this heated debate. My first post was simply a reiteration that my wish is that any copies be made with my prior permission. Besides the safety aspect, I am in advanced discussions to license this design to a Site Vendor and as all profits from the sale are to be kept by the Site Vendor it is only proper that I should reiterate that position.


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## NightKnight (Dec 16, 2009)

I can really see both sides of this, and I actually agree in parts with both. I ask that detailed design information not be posted if it is desired that no one make it. I also ask that if someone requests that a design not be copied, that we respect his wishes.

I really want this site to be a warm community of fellow slingshot lovers. I hate to see so much contention over this, as I feel we are alienating some of our best members.


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

Aaron, that is exactly how I feel, too. Well stated.


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

Well, that's fine. But I disagree with both Dan and Joerg. From now on, I suggest that anyone who is designing a slingshot with commercial purposes in mind should keep the design to himself until it is released. Just the way Bill Hays described.

The way it is is just too confusing and ambiguous.

I come here to have fun, but every time I see those please-ask-me-for-written-permission posts, I feel like I'm watching a teacher scolding his pupil, and it's not pretty.


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## JoergS (Dec 17, 2009)

What is so confusing about the sentence "Please do not copy the design without asking me first"?

I am here to have fun as well, but I don't see how Dan's kind request can ruin my fun. If I want to make a copy, I PM him and that's that.

Jörg


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## NightKnight (Dec 16, 2009)

It would also be good to clarify what a copyright is, as the term is being thrown around in here:



> What is copyright?
> Copyright is a form of protection grounded in the U.S. Constitution and granted by law for original works of authorship fixed in a tangible medium of expression. Copyright covers both published and unpublished works.
> 
> What does copyright protect?
> ...


What about patents?



> What is a Patent?
> A patent is an exclusive *right granted for an invention*, which is a product or a process that provides, in general, a new way of doing something, or offers a new technical solution to a problem. In order to be patentable, the invention must fulfill certain conditions.
> 
> What does a Patent do?
> ...


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## Dayhiker (Mar 13, 2010)

JoergS said:


> What is so confusing about the sentence "Please do not copy the design without asking me first"?
> 
> I am here to have fun as well, but I don't see how Dan's kind request can ruin my fun. If I want to make a copy, I PM him and that's that.
> 
> Jörg


Joerg, there is nothing confusing about the request. The confusion comes in understanding what the forum is about. To put it quite simply, I don't think it's appropriate to post copyrighted material in the midst of a community of brothers. The place for that is in the vendors section. Obviously we don't agree.


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## Brooklyn00003 (Feb 28, 2010)




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## NightKnight (Dec 16, 2009)

I am going to go ahead and close this post. If further conversation needs to be had, please continue it via PM.


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