# Pickle Forks?



## Smashtoad (Sep 3, 2010)

Hey Everyone,

For those of you who make and use pickle forks...what's the deal? I look at them and don't really get it.

Someone want to set me straight on their theory and use?


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## D.Nelson (Feb 20, 2014)

Tweak and twist the pouch, and instinctive aiming. Good fun!


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## Smashtoad (Sep 3, 2010)

Nice avatar...diggin it.

Reminds me of my dad telling me, when I was about 11 and sitting under the big oak tree in our front yard in a lawn chair with my Daisy 880 and a glass of tea:

"You can sit here all day and shoot all the spatzies (Knox County Indiana slang for the English sparrow) and starlings you want. But if I see you shoot a robin or cardinal I'm gonna beat your ***."

I said, "What about Blue Jays?"

To which he replied, "Blue Jays are nest robbers, kill them sunsab***es."


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## D.Nelson (Feb 20, 2014)

Sounds like something my dad would say as well!


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## Ole Man Dan (Dec 18, 2013)

D.Nelson said:


> Tweak and twist the pouch, and instinctive aiming. Good fun!


Forget to twist the pouch and you are likely to smash your hand or the Pickle Fork.

I got carried away Sunday, screwed up, and took a strike on the joint of my Left thumb.

Still got a little knot. Painful.

I was experimenting with an ugly little natural that is a PFS. Shot well till I failed...


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## Smashtoad (Sep 3, 2010)

I'm gonna have to watch some videos...


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## bigron (Nov 29, 2012)

there are a bunch of people that love them and that are pinpoint accurate i can't shoot the [email protected] things unless you count the forks or my fingers :king:


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## Arber (Mar 30, 2013)

By "what's the deal?" Do you mean what's the deal with shooting them or making them? I am a PFS enthusiast and will tell you this, they simply aren't for everyone. You need to get rid of the thoughts that frighten you about pickle fork shooters that other shooters wouldn't cause. Once you are no longer afraid of it, it will be your friend.


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## Smashtoad (Sep 3, 2010)

Arber said:


> By "what's the deal?" Do you mean what's the deal with shooting them or making them? I am a PFS enthusiast and will tell you this, they simply aren't for everyone. You need to get rid of the thoughts that frighten you about pickle fork shooters that other shooters wouldn't cause. Once you are no longer afraid of it, it will be your friend.


Definitely a shooting question. I've been seeing them for a good while now, and just had to ask. They can't be ttf shooters, right? Just doesn't seem to be any room.  I'll check out some vids.


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## crapshot (May 3, 2011)

make mine vlassic pickles


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## slingshooterPT (Feb 22, 2014)

To be honest never had a fork hit or hand hit, I just doesn´t shoot like most people drawing to the face....with PFS I shoot full butterfly or 3/4 butterfly just like master Arturo, I will leave a link, look to his channel!

Have fun and dont be afraid or it will go wrong, start even with paper balls just to gain confidence and the go to steel, lead or marbles!


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

The less space there is between the bands at their attachments, the less frame-hand technique is required in order to accurately shoot that frame. Once you've mastered the required technique of the pouch hand, this style of fork allows you to simply, and quickly, "Point and shoot" with amazing accuracy.....


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

slingshooterPT said:


> To be honest never had a fork hit or hand hit, I just doesn´t shoot like most people drawing to the face....with PFS I shoot full butterfly or 3/4 butterfly just like master Arturo, I will leave a link, look to his channel!
> 
> Have fun and dont be afraid or it will go wrong, start even with paper balls just to gain confidence and the go to steel, lead or marbles!


Arturo is one of the best... But if pfs is not for everybody(And it definitely is not),, then Chilean Gangsterfy will probably not be Smashtoads first or even second choice.... It is an extremely satisfying approach though! It's the only way I shoot any frame!


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Instinctive shooting fun!


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## Smashtoad (Sep 3, 2010)

I shoot everything pretty much at about 2 o'clock. I'm not sure I'm ready for this...but that video is awesome. That dude is cool.


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## slingshooterPT (Feb 22, 2014)

Lee Silva said:


> Arturo is one of the best... But if pfs is not for everybody(And it definitely is not),, then Chilean Gangsterfy will probably not be Smashtoads first or even second choice.... It is an extremely satisfying approach though! It's the only way I shoot any frame!
> 
> To be honest never had a fork hit or hand hit, I just doesn´t shoot like most people drawing to the face....with PFS I shoot full butterfly or 3/4 butterfly just like master Arturo, I will leave a link, look to his channel!
> 
> Have fun and dont be afraid or it will go wrong, start even with paper balls just to gain confidence and the go to steel, lead or marbles!


Well Lee if you teel it you know it!  I start shooting that way and haven´t had many problems but maybe for others starting with a shorter draw will be easier... I shoot this way but I´m already shooting butterfly with other frames what might also have helped me!

watever you shoot have fun


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

This is perhaps the best , anxiety-free explanation ive found on how to clear a fork. My best advice for a beginner would be, not to even pick up the frame until you understand what needs to be done, and why it must be done that way! There is no crazy math, or mystical hippie zhit involved in the technique! It's just DIFFERENT! Best of luck!

Although you dont need luck. What you need, is to understand.

and pt 2


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

Smashtoad said:


> I shoot everything pretty much at about 2 o'clock. I'm not sure I'm ready for this...but that video is awesome. That dude is cool.


Sooo coool! Like Carlos Santana meets Chester Cheetah!!! hahahaha


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## reset (Apr 13, 2013)

How i started out with PFS was by bare hand shooting and only pulling the bands back about 16-18 inches and really overly tweaking the pouch. In other words really exaggerating the tweak. So by what i call soft shooting i could figure where the ammo was going cause i could see it leaving the pouch and going over my knuckles. At that time i was shooting 15mm marbles. Then i just switched/graduated to PFS's.

I got braver when i saw that i wasnt going to hit myself and the tweaking got a bit toned down as in less exaggerated and i started doing my usual full draws. Now i shoot PFS almost exclusively with BB's mostly but also considerably bigger ammo like 15 mm marbles and rocks etc. Never have to worry about rocks going all crooked leaving the pouch and getting a fork hit cause with the tweaking it clears forks guaranteed. Anyway i hope this helps you a bit.


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## Smashtoad (Sep 3, 2010)

It does help, Reset. I'll have to make one sometime and start messing around. The idea of accuracy seems word, but I guess it's like anything else...practice, practice, practice.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

As usual, this thread contains a lot of myth and hype. Let's try to clear up a few things.

First ... What is a PFS? Many folks call any small frame slingshot a PFS. But that is incredibly imprecise and misleading. If the frame has enough space between the fork tips for the ammo to pass, then there is no need for twisting, tweaking, flipping, etc. For a good example, the frame in Arturo's video has ample space between the fork tips for ammo to pass. You can shoot such a frame as usual. And as with any other frame, if you are mindful of holding the frame flat to your target and mindful of your release, you will not have any difficulty with fork or hand hits. The problem comes when the gap between the forks is too small for the ammo to pass between them. Then you have to employ the "twist and tweak" ... what I call the speed bump effect. What I think is the best description of "twist and tweak" was called "turn and bend" by another forum member:

http://slingshotforum.com/topic/20079-bareback-my-way-explained/

He clearly explains what happens if you do it the wrong way. He was describing bareback technique, but it is exactly the same as shooting a flat top frame, a stick shot, or a frame with inadequate gap between the fork tips.

As for compactness, that is not at all unique to the PFS style frame. Most any frame design can be scaled down ... just look at the two Altoids tin competitions for examples. And just because a frame is compact does not mean you cannot have a decent gap between the fork tips. My boo shooters are a good example.

Now let's talk about "intuitive" shooting versus conscious aiming. You can shoot ANY frame using so-called intuitive shooting. AND, you can certainly aim with a PFS. Intuitive shooting is certainly NOT unique to, nor required by a PFS style frame.

As for the PFS "magically" giving you "pin point accuracy" or being "incredibly accurate" ... well, that is pure balderdash. Just have a look at the various accuracy competitions hosted on this forum. Until recently, no one had managed to get an accuracy badge using a pfs. Then in January, 2014, someone posted an accuracy challenge for pfs shooters ... nice prizes were available to those who could get a 5/5 at 10 meters on a 2 1/8 inch target using a frame with gap too small for the ammo to pass. Treefork managed to do it. Arturo and I both shot qualifying scores, but not 5/5.

http://slingshotforum.com/topic/28976-pfs-accuracy-challenge/

Have a good look at those videos. Those of us who shot a qualifying score were all aiming when we shot. None of us was shooting intuitively.

I got to thinking about it, and shooting 5/5 requires consistent accuracy, which is not all that easy. So, I suggested an accuracy challenge for what I consider to be the easiest of the accuracy badges ... the card cut. It only requires one shot that is well aligned horizontally, but has considerable leeway vertically. I offered $40 cash to all who could qualify for the card cutter badge using a frame with fork tip gap too small for the ammo to pass. Treefork, Greywolf, Can-Opener, CahH8r, and Scheme-sport all did it. Have a look at their videos ... none of them were shooting intuitively ... they all aimed.

http://slingshotforum.com/topic/34815-another-pfs-accuracy-challenge-for/

And have a look at the results of the various slingshot tournaments, both in the US and in Europe. How many of those who place in those tournaments shoot intuitively????

The simple fact is, if you want to be able to consistently hit what you are aiming at, your best bet is to learn to aim, no matter what style of frame you are using. Sure ... snap shooting can be fun, but it is not conducive to pin point accuracy. The more you practice aiming, the less conscious attention you will have to pay to it, and the faster at it you will get ... so it may come to seem more intuitive to you.

By all means, make yourself a pfs, and learn to shoot it. Try shooting it intuitively, but also try aiming with it as you would with any other frame. It is just one more aspect of the slingshot world. The minimal gap frame is at least 100 years old ... they are often associated with Guatemala, where as far as I can tell that style of frame originated.

http://slingshotforum.com/topic/12112-the-basic-pfs-design-is-very-old/

But keep in mind ... there is no magic frame type that is going to suddenly make you a deadly accurate shooter.
Cheers .... Charles


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

^^^ Haha "hype or myth", "magical", I'm guessing your not a fan. There are SIMPLE adaptations to the technique in order to shoot them. If you can't figure out the adaptations then shoot a frame that does not require them. It would not take much to make a PFS and try it out. If you like it and hit your target then keep shooting them if not move on to the next frame.


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## Smashtoad (Sep 3, 2010)

BAM! CHARLES FROM THE TOP ROPE!

Thanks Charles. That's some good stuff.


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## Aras (Apr 2, 2011)

Well I think this video pretty much sums the PFS up. It sure is fun once you master it


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

Charles said:


> As usual, this thread contains a lot of myth and hype. Let's try to clear up a few things.
> 
> First ... What is a PFS? Many folks call any small frame slingshot a PFS. But that is incredibly imprecise and misleading. If the frame has enough space between the fork tips for the ammo to pass, then there is no need for twisting, tweaking, flipping, etc. For a good example, the frame in Arturo's video has ample space between the fork tips for ammo to pass. You can shoot such a frame as usual. And as with any other frame, if you are mindful of holding the frame flat to your target and mindful of your release, you will not have any difficulty with fork or hand hits. The problem comes when the gap between the forks is too small for the ammo to pass between them. Then you have to employ the "twist and tweak" ... what I call the speed bump effect. What I think is the best description of "twist and tweak" was called "turn and bend" by another forum member:
> 
> ...


Geez Charles..... Did some pfs slinger drop you on your head when you were a baby or what?


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## 1Wally (Nov 14, 2014)

Charles said:


> As usual, this thread contains a lot of myth and hype. Let's try to clear up a few things.
> 
> First ... What is a PFS? Many folks call any small frame slingshot a PFS. But that is incredibly imprecise and misleading. If the frame has enough space between the fork tips for the ammo to pass, then there is no need for twisting, tweaking, flipping, etc. For a good example, the frame in Arturo's video has ample space between the fork tips for ammo to pass. You can shoot such a frame as usual. And as with any other frame, if you are mindful of holding the frame flat to your target and mindful of your release, you will not have any difficulty with fork or hand hits. The problem comes when the gap between the forks is too small for the ammo to pass between them. Then you have to employ the "twist and tweak" ... what I call the speed bump effect. What I think is the best description of "twist and tweak" was called "turn and bend" by another forum member:
> 
> ...


Brilliant post and links Charles, cheers.


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Every time Charles goes on an anti-PFS rant a new internet forum or Facebook group is born :lol:


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## August West (Jan 21, 2012)

Every time Charles goes on an anti-PFS rant a new internet forum or Facebook group is born :lol:

"Give us your tired, your poor,
Your huddled pfs shooters yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore."

HAHAHA


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

If there were no good reasons for shooting a tight fork, people simply would not shoot em..... They're no more or less potent than any other frame, just require less scrutiny on "Frame-hand" technique......


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Look guys ... I think I have been unfairly characterized as being "anti pfs". That is just not true. I have made several, and I shoot them occasionally. As of this date, my only target badge was shot with a pfs. And when folks ask, I have been more than happy to tell them how to shoot one without hitting the fork or their hand ... and I have done so on this very forum.

Now, I am a BIG fan of compact slingshots ... that is almost all I ever shoot. I carry a compact slingshot with me everywhere. But I have yet to hear any good reason for using a frame that does not have a gap between the fork tips large enough for the ammo to pass. It is like trying to run a marathon with a rock in your shoe ... you can do it, but why would you want to? Quite a few pfs fans shoot BBs ... and surprise, surprise ... BBs will pass through the gap between the fork tips. For all you pfs fans, I urge you to take your favorite pfs and just widen that gap out to about an inch. You will still be able to do everything you could before, and you will have far less trouble with fork or hand hits. Shooting a frame with minimal gap between the fork tips is NOT a quick path to accuracy.

BUT, I do tire of the hype of the pfs true believers. All too often, there is this vague mish-mash of the pfs (minimum gap) style frame and intuitive shooting. I repeat ... you can shoot ANY frame intuitively if you want to; AND you can aim with a pfs. I simply ask that you try to keep those two ideas separate.

All too often, true believers are quick to point at what OTHERS can do with a pfs ... but they very seldom show what THEY can do. PFS shooters in accuracy competitions are virtually non-existent ... that is a simple fact. Get over it. Get out there and practice and show us what YOU can do with your pfs.

Here is a guy who shoots standard frames, AND sometimes no frame. To quote Aras: "Well I think this video pretty much sums the [regular slingshot] up. It sure is fun once you master it"











Or, how about Bill Hays striking a match on a metronome:






"Well I think these videos pretty much sum the [regular slingshot] up. It sure is fun once you master it"

As I said ... snap shooting can be fun. And sometimes I have taken a snap shot at running game with a rifle. But I would never try to teach a raw beginner to just "point and shoot" a rifle or a pistol. Teach the basics first ... teach them how to aim. Then you can gradually increase your speed until it becomes automatic. Slingshots are no different.

Cheers ... Charles


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## Aras (Apr 2, 2011)

Solid post Charles. I completely agree with you that one should be taught the basics first. That's how I learned how to shoot intuitively as well.

I was afraid of taking the PFS into my hands, so I used a natural. I learned the objects' relativity to the bands on the slingshot. After a few weeks of practice I could hit a bottle cap mid-air. Here's a video from a few years back of me shooting :






I can't deny what you said, your point is very direct and true. Moreover, your idea to increase the width between the forks has led me to making a new slingshot design. I'll post the results later.


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

Myth? Hype? Where Myth? Where Hype?


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

Yeah, sweet spot for me is around 1"........ I just call it a tight fork


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Aras said:


> Solid post Charles. I completely agree with you that one should be taught the basics first. That's how I learned how to shoot intuitively as well.
> 
> I was afraid of taking the PFS into my hands, so I used a natural. I learned the objects' relativity to the bands on the slingshot. After a few weeks of practice I could hit a bottle cap mid-air. Here's a video from a few years back of me shooting :
> 
> ...


Very nice shooting, Aras. I am quite interested to see your new design.

Cheers .... Charles


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Lee Silva said:


> Yeah, sweet spot for me is around 1"........ I just call it a tight fork


Yep ... that's about what my boo shooters have. Personally, I do not like really wide forks, but there are those who swear by them.

Cheers ... Charles


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## reset (Apr 13, 2013)

Sheesh im getting to where i figure i better not say anything when someone asks for help reFS's anymore. Could get caught up in the middle. I do shoot them mostly so when some one asks i like to help. Just trying to be friendly.

My latest PFS that i shoot bb's with has a slot made with a hacksaw width blade. No bb's getting through there just wide enough to tie bands. And when i shoot targets which isnt often i usually do it with larger ammo as in 15mm with the PFS especially indoors to stop rebounds. So i thought i was experienced enough to help. Guess not.


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## August West (Jan 21, 2012)

I sure hate it when folks get stupid.


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## Smashtoad (Sep 3, 2010)

I didn't mean to ask something difficult. Just wanted to know how they were shot, as they look really stupid.

JUST KIDDING

ha!


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## wombat (Jun 10, 2011)

I'm in the "non PFS fan club" I just can't seem to get it right, but then I also don't like having to remember to twist, tweek, and flip. With that said I love my little JPS (jacket pocket shooter )

And to help clarify the difference. Both are almost identical in size except for the gap.

This is a PFS This is a JPS


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

reset said:


> Sheesh im getting to where i figure i better not say anything when someone asks for help reFS's anymore. Could get caught up in the middle. I do shoot them mostly so when some one asks i like to help. Just trying to be friendly.
> 
> My latest PFS that i shoot bb's with has a slot made with a hacksaw width blade. No bb's getting through there just wide enough to tie bands. And when i shoot targets which isnt often i usually do it with larger ammo as in 15mm with the PFS especially indoors to stop rebounds. So i thought i was experienced enough to help. Guess not.


Don't be afraid to give advice about how to shoot a pfs so as to avoid fork and hand hits. I give such advice myself. I simply ask that folks not confuse the frame style with intuitive shooting. You can shoot any frame intuitively if you want to. You can aim with a pfs if you want to. The frame style has nothing to do with intuitive shooting vs aiming. And do not make exaggerated claims about accuracy.

Now ... as to the rest of our pfs fans ... I could not care less what you shoot, nor indeed how you shoot it. I just want you to be able to shoot WELL. I also want you to recognize that you do not have to shoot a pfs intuitively.

For example: "Tweak and twist the pouch, and instinctive aiming." You do NOT have to use intuitive shooting with a pfs.

For another example: "there are a bunch of people that love them and that are pinpoint accurate" ... Well, that "bunch" of people are well hidden. Where are all the accuracy badges gathered by pfs shooters? Where are the superior tournament results gathered by pfs shooters? Where are those pfs shooters cutting cards, lighting matches, hitting the point of a pin, cutting threads, scoring on paper targets at 10 meters or more?

For yet another example: "'Point and shoot' with amazing accuracy....." Again, confusing the frame type with the necessity of intuitive shooting. And I would love to see our pfs fans demonstrating their "amazing accuracy". Don't bother pointing to what someone else can do ... show us what YOU can do.

No more myth and hype. In short, I just ask for a little more clarity and some honesty about your own skills. Just keep having fun, but do not turn it into a religion with mystical initiation rites involving smashed fingers and frames.

Cheers .... Charles


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## Chuck Daehler (Mar 17, 2015)

Reset is spot on. Here's another excellent PFS vid by an old master. PFSHOOTER





Note on the 2nd slingshot he uses, the bands are not straight, they've got a half turn. He tweeks as well.

You also should duck the wrist at the shot, that is, let your hand go forward at the wrist to get things out of the way of the oncoming ball. With a tweek and a wrist flip you should be on your way.

About a third of the way through the vid, he's using a very wide frame wire frame SS and tries to hit the fork with it scewed and can't if he tweeks the pouch 90 degrees.

Watch the whole video...to the end. He even bare back shoots with the pouch holding method, that is, NO FRAME, PFS or not.

Now, I'm offering advice but am not a PFS fan. Maybe in the future I'll grow up and learn it.

On one post I advised not to shoot rocks because I got a hand hit...
this maestro shows how not to get fork and hand hits with rocks..


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## Chuck Daehler (Mar 17, 2015)

Just for kicks and for newer shooters or "just interested" potential SSers, Bill Hays has offered this hour long video from start to finish, slingshots.


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

Trippin!!


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

Why there are in fact so few intuitive, and pfs style shooters here to take your challenges, should be far less of a mystery, mr.Charles....

No mystery at all, really.

Not now.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Lee Silva said:


> Why there are in fact so few intuitive, and pfs style shooters here to take your challenges, should be far less of a mystery, mr.Charles....
> No mystery at all, really.
> Not now.


If you can't stand the heat, then don't go into the kitchen. C'mon, Lee ... Where are the intuitive pfs shooters in the U.S., British, Chinese, and European tournaments???? It is easy to extoll the alleged virtues of intuitive shooting, but it is another thing completely to actually produce some real results.

It is time to stop hiding behind the mantra: "Charles does not like it". I will say it again: I could not care less what you shoot or how you shoot it ... I just want you to shoot it well. What I do not like are unsubstantiated claims made by those indoctrinated into the pfs intuitive shooting cult. I like honesty. Show me YOUR abilities ... you will find me very supportive indeed.

Cheers ... Charles


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Charles said:


> Lee Silva said:
> 
> 
> > Why there are in fact so few intuitive, and pfs style shooters here to take your challenges, should be far less of a mystery, mr.Charles....No mystery at all, really.Not now.
> ...


The UKCA has there Sheffield competition this Saturday. There will be many titles up for grabs and I'm excited to see who walks with what. I'm especially excited to see who will win the PFS TITLE! You should really try to be open to the fact that there is a large following of this style of intuitive shooting. There is nothing wrong with it if you can't shoot them. The negativity that this forum tends to project on the pfs is only found here.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

CanH8r said:


> Charles said:
> 
> 
> > Lee Silva said:
> ...


Soooo ... Is it your proposal that we should have separate accuracy badges for intuitive pfs shooters? Can't the intuitive pfs shooters measure up to the same standards as everyone else?

Some folks have earned accuracy badges on this forum shooting a pfs ... and by Zeus, I have strongly encouraged them to do so ... with my own hard cash. How many intuitive shooters have earned an accuracy badge??? Answer ... NONE!

Your alleged "negativity" toward the pfs in this forum is a complete myth. Don't try to hide behind that myth. Show us what you can do. The only negativity is toward bogus claims. I urge all "intuitive pfs" shooters to stop whining and show us your shooting skills.

Cheers ... Charles


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Charles said:


> CanH8r said:
> 
> 
> > Charles said:
> ...


No I did not propose that. Stay on topic. I simply let you know that you where wrong about other scenes not shooting PFS'. And then I suggested that you open up to the fact that there is a large following of this style of intuitive shooting. It's very passive aggressive to state that you promote the shooting of PFS by your challenges and then put it down. 
Your whole approach to this thread is passive aggressive. You would have issues if someone started in on altoid shooters or boo shooters as they were "hype or myth". Altoid shooters are FUN but not the choice of most members when doing a challenge or competition. PFS are fun too.


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

Charles said:


> Lee Silva said:
> 
> 
> > Why there are in fact so few intuitive, and pfs style shooters here to take your challenges, should be far less of a mystery, mr.Charles....
> ...


At this point charles, all I'm hearing from an otherwise positive and encouraging pillar of this community, is discouragement, disregard, and disrespect of a very real group of shooters who are also in love with slingshots... No, they're not going to be as good as Hays or Rayshot, lighting matches or sodomizing fruit flys, but I've never heard claims that they could. I've certainly made no such claim. Man, you just seem to have gone from zero to NINJA, in but a few seconds, and completely unprovoked, the way I see it. Looks like you may actually be talking to somebody else, from some other place in time. If that's the case , then I can understand, but please don't come after this thread with such foam on your normally very pleasant mouth.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Heavy sigh ... c'mon Lee and Can. I am certainly not being passive aggressive. You guys are just being super sensitive and defensive.

As for there being a "special" section in a British competition for pfs shooters, that does NOT in any way show that shooting a pfs intuitively can measure up to the accuracy standards. As I keep pointing out, the tournaments and accuracy badges are simply not won by intuitive shooters. There is nothing I have said in this thread that is not the truth, and you know it.

As for accuracy claims, just have a look back at this very thread:

" people that love them and that are pinpoint accurate "

" 'Point and shoot' with amazing accuracy..... "

I repeat, show me your "pinpoint" and "amazing" accuracy with your intuitive shooting.

If you are having fun shooting a pfs intuitively, then I say that's great! I have no quarrel with having fun. But please leave off with the hyperbole about "pinpoint" and "amazing" accuracy. The results of actual shooting strongly suggest that if you want to shoot with "pinpoint" and "amazing" accuracy, then you better learn to aim. AND, you CAN aim with a pfs and have "pinpoint" and "amazing" accuracy, as some shooters on this forum (CanH8r) have demonstrated. That is my whole point!

Let me repeat it one more time, just so you are very clear. You can AIM with a PFS, if you choose to do so; you can shoot INTUITIVELY with ANY frame, if you choose to do so. That is the simple truth. And judging by the results of tournaments world wide and the accuracy badges here, if you want to have "pinpoint" and "amazing" accuracy, you are better off learning to aim, whether you shoot a pfs or any other type of frame.

Instead of trying to (falsely) paint me as anti-pfs, get out there and show us what you can do.

Cheers ... Charles


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## slingshooterPT (Feb 22, 2014)

In my opinion whatever you shoot just have fun...come on guys that's what its all about, whatever you shoot PFS, TTF, OTT instinctive or aiming!! I do also think that instinctive shooting could be realy accurate, maybe less consistent and requires more practise to be mastered but in my opinion it could also be accurate, maybe never as acurate as Bill Hays or Rayshot style however!! 
This is just my opinion...however I'm a beginner you guys know more in one hand than me in all the body, but one thing I know...HAVE FUN!!!!
Cheers


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

Here's an intuitive shot..... No anchor, in motion.....Technically speaking, it's got everything working against it. I will not claim that I can do this on the first take, every time, but exploring the IDEA that it is possible, is something of a pursuit of mine....I don't know that I'll ever be a match lighter with this approach, but I very seriously challenge myself with this adventure, and that alone deserves more respect.... SOME respect.... Shouldn't it?!?! Hey!! I also practice an aiming shot, you know.... More so now, than ever.... I know nothing, of any pfs cult, but I do believe that, although extreme, the pfs is a significant concept in slingshot design that has helped many shooters to better understand their own pursuit





https://youtu.be/xmibI0Mqwr8]https://youtu.be/xmibI0Mqwr8


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

C'mon Charles, I'm not being super sensitive and defensive. You are being extremely judgemental and rude.

As for there being a "legitimate fondness" in a British competition for UKCA shooters, that does NOT in any way show that shooting a pfs intuitively can measure up to the accuracy standards.

That is not what I was saying. I was just pointing out that there are A LOT of enthusiasts all over who enjoy them. Why is it so important for you to see someone shoot targets accuratley. I shoot pfs at cans from distance from 8 meters to 15. It's not my frame of choice when trying to get a close grouping on a sheet of paper. Although I wouldn't use a ttf when shooting at stuff out a window of a moving car or plinking cans out of the air either. I know I can hit wingshots and shoot decent out a window with a ttf, but it's easier with a pfs. Just as I know I could shoot a close grouping on a piece of paper with a pfs, but it is easier with a ttf.

How did the forum badges and slingshot competition be the end all be all for slingshot accuracy anyways? For a slingshot not to be considered hype someone has to win a competition with it or get a better score then 3 out of 5 on a forum badge challenge with it?

What would be the point of anyone who truly enjoy's shooting pfs to change their application of it to prove to you that it can be done? Are you going to take back all the pfs negativity? I love that little frame and shooting them helps me with all other styles of slingshot shooting. I plan on using one for one portion of ECST this year. I don't expect you to change your view of the frame whether I'm successful in that "special" portion of the competition. You calling people out to shoot their pfs as a target shooter is silly. Your attitude towards pfs does not align itself with your normal kind demeanor when it comes to our awesome sport.


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

Not full on active shots, but ZERO an




chor(something i'd consider intuitive)


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Ahhhhhh .... so now we are getting a little backing off from the claims of "amazing" and "pinpoint" accuracy with intuitive shooting with a pfs.

Again, pay close attention to what I am saying. You can AIM with a PFS; you can shoot INTUITIVELY with ANY frame. I am simply asking you to separate the pfs style of frame from the notion of intuitive shooting.

I have NEVER claimed you cannot shoot accurately with a pfs style of frame ... what the heck, even I can do it ... and I am 70 years old with arthritic hands and cataracts. I am NOT anti-pfs AT ALL. On the contrary, I want to ENCOURAGE pfs shooters to become more accurate in their shooting ... to try shooting smaller, challenging targets at greater distances.

My personal preference is to have more of a gap between the fork tips than in the "official" pfs, so that I do not have to use the speed bump effect; I find the extra variables to be detrimental to accuracy. That is my personal preference, but I do not care at all whether you or anyone else prefers the minimal/no gap style of frame.

What I do object to is the suggestion that if we would all just switch to a pfs frame and shoot intuitively, then we would all be able to shoot with "amazing" and "pinpoint" accuracy. I simply note that the evidence is very strongly against that claim (tournament results and accuracy badges).

I like to urge folks to become better shooters. Folks often find having a goal to be a good motivating factor. There are various tournaments that many attend. On this forum, we have the accuracy badges. (And certainly others make a variety amazing shots, not directly connected to the badges.) So if someone comes along and makes rather extravagant claims about the efficacy of a particular frame and method of shooting it, then naturally we like to see demonstrations.

Cheers ... Charles


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

Stop saying cheers, Chas, and re-read the text of this thread! Who are you talking to??????


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

I don't care what anybody shoots. But why is it important to see someone shoot targets accurate ? If we don't want to see that we can just throw rocks at the target. I for one enjoy seeing pinpoint accuracy.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Charles always says cheers. Why should he stop now. Because you don't like it ?


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## Lee Silva (Feb 9, 2013)

Read, and re-read.... I'm movin on... and doing so with no hard residual feelings on the matter.... I regret there being so little clarity in the conversation, but i'm sure we'll all do just fine..... fin


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Cjw said:


> I don't care what anybody shoots. But why is it important to see someone shoot targets accurate ? If we don't want to see that we can just throw rocks at the target. I for one enjoy seeing pinpoint accuracy.


Um.... what? Throwing rocks with accuracy?


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Don't laugh I've seen people at the indoor pistol range shooting a 9mm completely miss the target at 21 feet . From that distance you could throw the gun at the target and hit it every time


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## Aras (Apr 2, 2011)

I see a hot discussion going on here, I'll just leave this here.

According to the OPFS dimensions I created a similar design, but with 1'' gap between the forks.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_5m1ivTJRU9OUxyZU9oY21FeTA/view?usp=sharing


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

Geez, I don't usually follow PFS discussions, and am reminded why in this thread. Devotees are quick to make unsubstantiated claims and attack anyone who questions those claims. Charles has made some very good and valid points and met with attack and accused of hating PFSs and no amount of explanation on his part is enough to stop the attacks. This thread reminds me of some political discussions where anyone who disagrees with one side is called a racist.


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Aras said:


> I see a hot discussion going on here, I'll just leave this here.
> 
> According to the OPFS dimensions I created a similar design, but with 1'' gap between the forks.
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_5m1ivTJRU9OUxyZU9oY21FeTA/view?usp=sharing


That looks like a fine design. I will be interested to learn how it shoots for you.

Cheers ..... Charles


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## reset (Apr 13, 2013)

Henry in Panama said:


> Geez, I don't usually follow PFS discussions, and am reminded why in this thread. Devotees are quick to make unsubstantiated claims and attack anyone who questions those claims. Charles has made some very good and valid points and met with attack and accused of hating PFSs and no amount of explanation on his part is enough to stop the attacks. This thread reminds me of some political discussions where anyone who disagrees with one side is called a racist.


Thats why i backed out. No one is going to convince the other.

Only claim i make is i like shooting PFS and im satisfied with my accuracy. Not sure i shoot intuitive or not or what that really is. Just real fast aimer and no anchor point maybe????. Ive tried to duplicate it with my HTS to no avail. I actually have to take time to aim with it.

Anyway its all just supposed to be fun. Keep on keeping on. We are supposed to all be friends here.


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## quarterinmynose (Jan 21, 2012)

OK, that's it. I swore off pickles once already, but I'm gonna have to cut out an OPFS soon. With this much heated passion it's gotta be fun. Then I can get my menage a trois going on down at the range(plinker, starship, pickle)

...brown chicken, brown cow


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Henry in Panama said:


> Geez, I don't usually follow PFS discussions, and am reminded why in this thread. Devotees are quick to make unsubstantiated claims and attack anyone who questions those claims. Charles has made some very good and valid points and met with attack and accused of hating PFSs and no amount of explanation on his part is enough to stop the attacks. This thread reminds me of some political discussions where anyone who disagrees with one side is called a racist.


Henry,

That's a bit dramatic. It's slingshots after all. Let's not make it more then that. This is not a racial thing. Chill with that. I enjoy Charles and after thinking about it there may be some residual feelings and arguments being brought into this discussion that really have nothing to do with my point of view.

No one claimed the frame has mythical abilities or hype. That was inferred by Charles. I have not claimed pin point accuracy ever in any of my posts. The fact that you can only see one point of view does not surprise me. Charles is doing just fine without you making it more dramatic then it is. I am an avid fan of the frame. There are certain shooting senarios where they are the obvious choice for me. I have been happy with the performance with them and feel I'm plenty accurate with them. When I start shooting poorly with my main target frame i pick up a pfs and kick a bean can around the woods and it's almost therapeutic. When I come back to the target range all is well. That is me. I feel there are others who shoot them more exclusively and they can get disappointed when Charles starts off with his unwarranted hype, myth, and win a comp or badge with one attitude. That disappoints the members who do love the frame and style. Whether it is just me alone or a small handful of members on this forum, it still is unwarranted and disappointing.

Smashtoad expressed interest and asked. He got advice from other members who generally like, shoot or respect the frame as a legitimit style. Charles gives excellent advice and wealth of information on the frame but consistently adds an attitude where he discredits the frame. That Henry is my only debate with Charles. The old static over the frame should be put to rest. I wasn't involved with that. No other style or frame gets scrutinized on this forum. If you don't like the frame and don't get why people would want to shoot them over this frame or that frame keep it to yourself. It's not like I feel I could shoot every frame posted on this forum accurately. I would not be down playing it if other members like a certain frame or style I couldn't be successful with.

If Charles can not see my point of view that's cool with me. I'm sure he is not heart broken that I don't agree with him. We both have plenty of slingshot views and enthusiasm in other areas where we can be in support of each other.

Cheers 
Jeff


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## Charles (Aug 26, 2010)

Yep ... just keep it fun, guys ... shoot whatever suits you personally.

Cheers .... Charles


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## Aras (Apr 2, 2011)

The post editing is out of order. The link I posted before is too big, the real 1 inch fork gap is in this one:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_5m1ivTJRU9NGFEY3pBYkQwY00/view?usp=sharing

Not sure if anyone will use this, but still.


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

CanH8r said:


> Henry in Panama said:
> 
> 
> > Geez, I don't usually follow PFS discussions, and am reminded why in this thread. Devotees are quick to make unsubstantiated claims and attack anyone who questions those claims. Charles has made some very good and valid points and met with attack and accused of hating PFSs and no amount of explanation on his part is enough to stop the attacks. This thread reminds me of some political discussions where anyone who disagrees with one side is called a racist.
> ...


We old ******** have a saying, Jeff, "Bit dog hollers".


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Us younger Yankees just say "quit being butt hurt".

Or:

"People expect that they should be understood by you but seldom put in an effort to understand you."


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Does anyone know how many people are shooting a pickle fork shooter at the East coast slingshot tournament ? And it seemed to me that the people defending PFS were the ones getting butt hurt.


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

Us younger Yankees just say "quit being butt hurt".

Or:

"People expect that they should be understood by you but seldom put in an effort to understand you."

Jeff, I am not the one being butt hurt and defensive here. Another old saying, "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging".


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

If I remember correctly the PFS shooter idol Dgui left because he was butt hurt.


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## August West (Jan 21, 2012)

This thread is amazing. LOL We are talking about slingshots here and not politics, right?

I have seen amazing and pin point accuracy with a pfs, I have seen amazing flight shooting with a standard slingshot. As far as which is better? I am going with Ford.


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

Cjw said:


> If I remember correctly the PFS shooter idol Dgui left because he was butt hurt.


He left because he couldn't defend the outrageous claims he made for his PFS, and like some other devotees, resorted to personal attack.


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Henry in Panama said:


> Us younger Yankees just say "quit being butt hurt".
> 
> Or:
> "People expect that they should be understood by you but seldom put in an effort to understand you."
> ...


Henry,

Nor am I. If you think I have dug myself into a hole your welcome to it. Just remember you joined a pfs conversation only to make it more dramatic then it was... "Babies who poop their diapers cry", "bit dog hollers". How ever you want to consider it. No one forced you to make it racial.


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

At this point this is turning into a lot of Wa Wa my Pu--y hurts. If you want to shoot PFS knock yourself out if not ok. Just shoot. And if anyone wants to make claims prove it and everyone won't have a thing to bi-ch about.


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Cjw said:


> At this point this is turning into a lot of Wa Wa my Pu--y hurts.


Again... what? Are you posting just to post?


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

And are you posting just to hurl accusations at Henry and Charles ?


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## Bill Hays (Aug 9, 2010)

CanH8r said:


> Henry in Panama said:
> 
> 
> > Geez, I don't usually follow PFS discussions, and am reminded why in this thread. Devotees are quick to make unsubstantiated claims and attack anyone who questions those claims. Charles has made some very good and valid points and met with attack and accused of hating PFSs and no amount of explanation on his part is enough to stop the attacks. This thread reminds me of some political discussions where anyone who disagrees with one side is called a racist.
> ...


Jeff, Lee...

I think Charles is not only reacting to current touts but to past touting of the PFS as well.

Please do not forget that in the past PFS centric guys have claimed everything from because the PFS has a small gap it possesses 33 - 50% more inherent energy potential from the same set of bands... to the need to carry one in a little holster so you can "snap shoot" game or use in a self defense situation... to because the gap is small it is much more accurate than it's larger gapped cousins.... these among many other touts have made some people a little sensitive to the whole PFS religious-like following... where there's many claims but nothing to back up those claims, and in fact when put to unbiased testing it's been shown those claims are not only wrong, but the opposite is more likely true.

Wider fork gaps are actually faster when using the same bands/tubes and the same draw length. They don't require a special release to make them work without fork hits... because the gap is wider, less band congestion takes place and less fliers are the result, which equals better overall accuracy... because you don't need to tweak and twist on a standard frame, that results in less trapping of the ammo in the pouch and fewer return to senders... and finally, you will hear a lot of guys proclaim the need to "snap shoot" game, but look over your own personal experiences with hunting and realize that in reality that almost never happens and in fact the well aimed shot is what brings home the meat for the pot.

So what are the advantages of a PFS? Simple... they're small, so they're easier to conceal than most standard frames... there are a few very talented shooters who prefer them... and that's about all.


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Cjw said:


> And are you posting just to hurl accusations at Henry and Charles ?


No.


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## Henry the Hermit (Jun 2, 2010)

CanH8r said:


> Henry,
> 
> Nor am I. If you think I have dug myself into a hole your welcome to it. Just remember you joined a pfs conversation only to make it more dramatic then it was... "Babies who poop their diapers cry", "bit dog hollers". How ever you want to consider it. No one forced you to make it racial.


Jeff, I'm going to let you have the last word.


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Bill Hays said:


> CanH8r said:
> 
> 
> > Henry in Panama said:
> ...


Bill,

I agree. That is where I feel Charles passion and our disagreement should be focused. I shoot them because as you stated, they are small easy to conceal as well as I can reload OTT frames faster and for me they are easier to shoot instinctual and fast. I never stated I was religious about them or that they had mythical powers or that there should be hype or whatever. As far as I'm concerned that whole dispute that might have brought up some unwarranted animosity was a sad occasion for the whole community. I'm glad I wasn't around when it went down.

You know I'm a ttf shooter as well and I was influenced by yourself, Rayshot and Gamekeeper. I appreciate all slingshots. Yes even a pickle. If it were the only frame I was allowed to shoot I'd be fine with that. People have different guns for different situations. No one would bring a pocket hand gun to a long range rifle comp. That does not mean the small hand gun couldn't be effective or appropriate for other applications.

Cjw asking how many people use them at ECST is just childish. I've only been to one ECST and never saw anyone use one but myself that whole time. Having said that no one used a Spanish style target slingshot either, that doesn't mean that those slingshots are hype and mythical.

Thank you for your post as I can see that you can see my point of view too. I'm not trying to bring up that argument about fork tips or whatever. Henry and Cjw can think what they want about me. I appreciate the banter from Charles and yourself. I am done with it.

Jeff


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Nothing childish about it just a legitimate question. Never been to the ECST . The only slingshots I know we're MJ shoots SPS Bill Hays shoots a Scorpion , Tree Fork I believe shoots Rotating head slingshot. And Rayshot. Shoots a Maxim champ style . Other than that I have no idea what everyone else is shooting.


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

Ok


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## Cjw (Nov 1, 2012)

Ok


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## Arber (Mar 30, 2013)

I feel like I should say ok a too.

Ok


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

View attachment 78594


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## treefork (Feb 1, 2010)

OK


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## Arber (Mar 30, 2013)

treefork said:


> OK


You forgot to edit the post


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## ChapmanHands (Oct 14, 2013)

Okay... This is that bull sh!t!!! Somebody started a pfs religion and didn't invite me to the first congregation?!?

I thought y'all liked me more than that. Guess I'm going to go mythically shoot off some unicorn horns with my magical can zapping pfs lol.

Peace and love homies!!!!


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## Aras (Apr 2, 2011)

Here's the video I promised.






Very similar shooting to PFS, but the frame feels bulky

Here's the cutout if anyone wants it:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_5m1ivTJRU9NGFEY3pBYkQwY00/view


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## romanista77 (Sep 25, 2013)

Being newer to Slingshots, I've got a question about PFS slingshots (or maybe it's TTF vs OTT?).

I've watched a lot of Bill Hays videos and a lot of PFS Shooter videos.

I'm trying to decide what sling shot to start with.

What someone else said about learning to aim first makes a lot of sense. But I'm really impressed with PFS Shooter's videos and would like to shoot intuitively eventually.

I'm also interested in hunting small game.

From Bill's videos it looks like shooting TTF is best. But if i want to shoot intuitively should i go OTT?

I also was considering OTT to eliminate fork hits. But will this really hurt my accuracy?

I also love the idea of bareback and carrying a slingshot on my wrist and having it available at anytime. Can you shoot bareback in a TTF style (through the fingers?)

As in most things I'd like just one slingshot to focus on, and need to decide what to put all my attention on. I have a bunch of rubber tubes and pouches. I'm trying to decide on a PFS, bareback, Bill's BoyShot. Or something else anyone can recommend that fills the above requirements.

Cheers,


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## M.J (Nov 1, 2010)

Shoot them all, learn all the styles. One will probably work better for you and then that will be the one to use if you ever NEED to make a shot.
It's always better to know more than it is to know less.


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## romanista77 (Sep 25, 2013)

M.J said:


> Shoot them all, learn all the styles. One will probably work better for you and then that will be the one to use if you ever NEED to make a shot.
> It's always better to know more than it is to know less.


I'm leaning towards an axiom flipkung survival as a "do it all" slingshot to try various methods. Except bareback of course..


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## CanH8r (Dec 3, 2013)

M.J said:


> Shoot them all, learn all the styles. One will probably work better for you and then that will be the one to use if you ever NEED to make a shot.
> It's always better to know more than it is to know less.


^^^ what he said. Everyone is different and what works for some doesn't for others. I find it extremely fun putting someone else's style and tips into practice. It helps refine my own.


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

hey, what about those of us who shoot with no fork gap, the flat top shooters ?


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## twang (May 10, 2015)

Henry in Panama said:


> CanH8r said:
> 
> 
> > Henry,
> ...


I want the last word


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

twang said:


> Henry in Panama said:
> 
> 
> > CanH8r said:
> ...


"word"


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## twang (May 10, 2015)

lol. (still me)


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## leon13 (Oct 4, 2012)

Nope


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## twang (May 10, 2015)

ok you win


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## leon13 (Oct 4, 2012)

No you


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

ME !!!​


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## twang (May 10, 2015)

him


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## Viper010 (Apr 21, 2012)

No me! ????


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## lunasling (Apr 5, 2015)

Check PFS ( Dgui ) shooter on you tube as well this man is a wizard at PFS he desinged the

OPFS takes a lil practice ta get use to but once ya get it down its sweet !


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## Ole Man Dan (Dec 18, 2013)

Went walking on the Creek in front of my house this afternoon. Using a PFS I shot a rat off a large rock by the creek. (15 or so yards...)

Killed a bunch of plastic bottles and beer cans that washed up when the Creek was out of bounds two weeks ago.

The flood brought a host of targets down stream to me. It was a productive walk.

Found one Fork, but didn't get it today. Maybe tomorrow.

PFS's are small enough to put in your pocket. Don't attract attention when out of sight. (Stealth) Then I'm just an old guy walking near the creek.

PFS's do attract a lot of attention when you demo it on bottles and cans.

People think it's a dinky little toy until you shoot thru a can with it.

I love em.

I'm not nearly the shot a lot of guys on here are, but when I have a good day, like today, I don't miss much.

I've got several full size naturals I really like, but I carry the PFS and a pocket full of Marbles, most often.


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## Imperial (Feb 9, 2011)

the thing i like about shooting a pfs, is that it trains you to not worry about aiming the slingshot or how you set your draw/ammo hand. it becomes a "learned instinct", you just "know". this comes in handy during night time, all you need to know is where your target is at and just point at it.


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## lunasling (Apr 5, 2015)

Imperial said:


> the thing i like about shooting a pfs, is that it trains you to not worry about aiming the slingshot or how you set your draw/ammo hand. it becomes a "learned instinct", you just "know". this comes in handy during night time, all you need to know is where your target is at and just point at it.


Yup the more ya shoot the better ya get !

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G850A using Tapatalk


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## Ole Man Dan (Dec 18, 2013)

Ole Man Dan said:


> D.Nelson said:
> 
> 
> > Tweak and twist the pouch, and instinctive aiming. Good fun!
> ...


Now months later It feels natural shooting a PFS. Maybe it's just me but I shoot the PFS better when I tweak with the thumb up instead of down. I know it throws a marble a little higher than it does when I tweak with thumb down.

(I also point the forks at the target)

I think my best kept secret for shooting a PFS is to carry it every day with a pocket full of marbles.

I shoot at rocks, bottles, cans, and the odd leaf at unknown yardages.

Like everything else... Practice makes perfect.


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