# Unscientific comparisons



## Dayhiker

Well, I have my BunnyBuster Hammermil rigged up with a Bill Herriman's Express bandset; and my Flatband's Tiger Maple Ergo rigged up with a set of A+ Gold Winner bands. And I thought I'd test them out for hunting -- as I have stated, I judge a bandset fit for hunting by seeing if it can penetrate a steel can with a 3/8 steel ball at ten yards. Now, I know that it ain't a really good way to do it, but I'm kind of a simpleton in my approach to life. I will let the experts among us sort out the true meaning of all this.

Before we talk steel, though, here's something that amazed me with a 5/8-inch marble and the express bands. The marble passed through the can without even making it swing and penetrated through the piece of cardboard behind it!

















I don't know if the Gold Winners can do that, but I can't try because they are broke, now. Seems the express bands shoot way faster than the Gold Winners, but not with the same force.

I could not make the 3/8 steel penetrate through one side of a steel can, but I came close with this one shot at the bottom of the can:










But for a comparison of the rest of my tests, here is what came out:

Gold Winners = multiple penetrations Express Bands = no penetrations


















Now let me acknowledge something here very clearly: The Express Bands ARE GOOD FOR HUNTING. I know this because there are people on here do hunt with them, and I would too. Just that I use this test as a rough guide to judge an unknown bandset. Also I am aware that even weaker, slower tubes can take out small game with larger ammo by using blunt force trauma. Like I said: I'm not very scientific.


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## A+ Slingshots

Neat "quick and dirty" test Bill. Those are the kinds of tests I like too.







I think the "Gold Winner" band is really balanced in it's speed to power ration, and is particularly suited to 3/8" steel and .44 cal. lead. 
I started making the "Gold Winners" for target shooting, and was looking for a replacement for my "Original" bands, but I quickly found out that they were good hunters even with less pull weight than my 'Originals". Since then I have not phased out my "Original" bands because many just love the "old fashioned" simple look and feel of these straight cut double bands.
I also want to say that I have shot Texshooters Express bands and can attest to the fact that they are well made, fast, and are defiantly strong enough to hunt with as well.

On a quick side note... I have changed the tying process on my "Gold Winner" bands which seems to have resulted in greater longevity. 
The "New and Improved" test set have 600 shots on them so far!!! (*Shooting no less than 3/8" steel is recommended. Be aware that ammo lighter that this reduces band life period....everyones bands.) Anyone who has ordered in the last 2 weeks has been receiving the new version.


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## Dayhiker

Oh, and by the way, the thought did occur to me that maybe the 3/8 was too light for the Express bands, so I used some 7/16 ammo (I think Bill recommends this), but still couldn't get penetration. Like I say, don't know what this means.


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## Sam

A+ Slingshots said:


> Neat "quick and dirty" test Bill. Those are the kinds of tests I like too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the "Gold Winner" band is really balanced in it's speed to power ration, and is particularly suited to 3/8" steel and .44 cal. lead.
> I started making the "Gold Winners" for target shooting, and was looking for a replacement for my "Original" bands, but I quickly found out that they were good hunters even with less pull weight than my 'Originals". Since then I have not phased out my "Original" bands because many just love the "old fashioned" simple look and feel of these straight cut double bands.
> I also want to say that I have shot Texshooters Express bands and can attest to the fact that they are well made, fast, and are defiantly strong enough to hunt with as well.
> 
> On a quick side note... I have changed the tying process on my "Gold Winner" bands which seems to have resulted in greater longevity.
> The "New and Improved" test set have 600 shots on them so far!!! (*Shooting no less than 3/8" steel is recommended. Be aware that ammo lighter that this reduces band life period....everyones bands.) Anyone who has ordered in the last 2 weeks has been receiving the new version.


Cool, you're always making new improvements.







If you don't mind me asking, what is your new method of tying your 'Gold Winner' bands?


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## Sam

Dayhiker said:


> Oh, and by the way, the thought did occur to me that maybe the 3/8 was too light for the Express bands, so I used some 7/16 ammo (I think Bill recommends this), but still couldn't get penetration. Like I say, don't know what this means.


I don't think speed is the limiting factor here, I think it's simply the projectile you're using, as you said even the Gold Winners couldn't penetrate the bottom of the can, using 3/8" steel. Try using lead of around 0.44" calibre and see what happens.


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## A+ Slingshots

> as you said even the Gold Winners couldn't penetrate the bottom of the can, using 3/8" steel.


I don't see that in the Dayhikers post Sam.... he couldn't do the marble test because his "Gold Winners" are broke.
What he did write was....
"But for a comparison of the rest of my tests, here is what came out: Gold Winners = multiple penetrations Express Bands = no penetrations"


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## Sam

A+ Slingshots said:


> as you said even the Gold Winners couldn't penetrate the bottom of the can, using 3/8" steel.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see that in the Dayhikers post Sam.... he couldn't do the marble test because his "Gold Winners" are broke.
> What he did write was....
> "But for a comparison of the rest of my tests, here is what came out: Gold Winners = multiple penetrations Express Bands = no penetrations"
Click to expand...

Oh sorry mate, I miss inferred that information. So do you think that combination would be suitable for hunting then?


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## A+ Slingshots

Sam said:


> as you said even the Gold Winners couldn't penetrate the bottom of the can, using 3/8" steel.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see that in the Dayhikers post Sam.... he couldn't do the marble test because his "Gold Winners" are broke.
> What he did write was....
> "But for a comparison of the rest of my tests, here is what came out: Gold Winners = multiple penetrations Express Bands = no penetrations"
Click to expand...

Oh sorry mate, I miss inferred that information. So do you think that combination would be suitable for hunting then?








[/quote]

Sam I just somehow don't trust 3/8" steel for hunting (maybe doves etc.... I suppose if 1/2" steel was all I had I would use it for rabbits. I know it works and others have used both successfully for years, but I'm sold on .44 and .50 cal. lead for hunting. For me it takes away the guessing. The only time I have been persuaded that 3/8" steel might be good for hunting was when I was testing my "Butterfly Bands", but that style is certainly more difficult. I know 1/2" steel will hunt but still. I also believe it was Chief AJ that stated he saw flying pheasants he hunted "pushed" in mid air with 1/2" steel, but the lead killed them every time. 
IMHO heavy is best! Slingshots don't just kill small game by penetration, they kill mostly by impact trauma. I like what fish always says... "If steel was good the military would use it."


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## JoergS

Small tip: Fill the cans with water. More penetration. The water prevents the can from denting all over as the liquid is slow. Hard to believe, but it works. Shooting through empty cans is a lot harder than through full cans.


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## Dayhiker

I only use this to test bands. If I actually went hunting, I would use lead. This is just a quick way to see if I would even want to use a bandset. I don't get many opportunities to hunt.
I have a ..45 cal. lead mold and a bunch of scrap lead flashing which I haven't used yet. I really wasn't talking about actually going out hunting with this ammo. But I would not hesitate to hunt with Gold Winners and 7/16 steel, if I had no lead -- and, because I know others have had good success, I'd do the same with an Express bandset.

My first choice would be double tapered Gold thera band, which passes 7/16 steel right through a steel can and a piece of cardboard with no problem at ten yards. Only trouble with this setup is that it's too hard on my hands for everyday use.


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## A+ Slingshots

JoergS said:


> Small tip: Fill the cans with water. More penetration. The water prevents the can from denting all over as the liquid is slow. Hard to believe, but it works. Shooting through empty cans is a lot harder than through full cans.


Interesting... I'll try it!


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## Sam

A+ Slingshots said:


> as you said even the Gold Winners couldn't penetrate the bottom of the can, using 3/8" steel.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see that in the Dayhikers post Sam.... he couldn't do the marble test because his "Gold Winners" are broke.
> What he did write was....
> "But for a comparison of the rest of my tests, here is what came out: Gold Winners = multiple penetrations Express Bands = no penetrations"
Click to expand...

Oh sorry mate, I miss inferred that information. So do you think that combination would be suitable for hunting then?








[/quote]

Sam I just somehow don't trust 3/8" steel for hunting (maybe doves etc.... I suppose if 1/2" steel was all I had I would use it for rabbits. I know it works and others have used both successfully for years, but I'm sold on .44 and .50 cal. lead for hunting. For me it takes away the guessing. The only time I have been persuaded that 3/8" steel might be good for hunting was when I was testing my "Butterfly Bands", but that style is certainly more difficult. I know 1/2" steel will hunt but still. I also believe it was Chief AJ that stated he saw flying pheasants he hunted "pushed" in mid air with 1/2" steel, but the lead killed them every time. 
IMHO heavy is best! Slingshots don't just kill small game by penetration, they kill mostly by impact trauma. I like what fish always says... "If steel was good the military would use it."








[/quote]
That's a shame, lead bullets are hard to come by here, I'm also worried about trying to import them from overseas, I'm not sure they'd get through customs... Do you think labelling them 'fishing weights' would work?


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## A+ Slingshots

> That's a shame, lead bullets are hard to come by here, I'm also worried about trying to import them from overseas, I'm not sure they'd get through customs... Do you think labelling them 'fishing weights' would work?


I've shipped them to the UK many times. I declare them as "metal balls" which they are. Why don't you just order them from Hunter Catapults in country if you are worried?


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## Dayhiker

JoergS said:


> Small tip: Fill the cans with water. More penetration. The water prevents the can from denting all over as the liquid is slow. Hard to believe, but it works. Shooting through empty cans is a lot harder than through full cans.


Joerg, Did you ever try filling the cans with sand? I wonder if that would make much of a difference?


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## Sam

A+ Slingshots said:


> That's a shame, lead bullets are hard to come by here, I'm also worried about trying to import them from overseas, I'm not sure they'd get through customs... Do you think labelling them 'fishing weights' would work?
> 
> 
> 
> I've shipped them to the UK many times. I declare them as "metal balls" which they are. Why don't you just order them from Hunter Catapults in country if you are worried?
Click to expand...

I can't afford them.







Wouldn't customs be suspicious as to why I wanted 100 lead balls?


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## A+ Slingshots

> I can't afford them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't customs be suspicious as to why I wanted 100 lead balls?


I see.... No... it's not a problem at all!!!


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## Sam

A+ Slingshots said:


> I can't afford them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't customs be suspicious as to why I wanted 100 lead balls?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see.... No... it's not a problem at all!!!
Click to expand...

Awesome, I will save up to buy some from you.







In the mean time I think I'd better go 'kill' some cans! BTW I managed to hit a tennis-ball from over 10 metres away today! Using your PS-2!









PS: I really like your bands, they're cut really cleanly, do you mind if I ask what you use to cut them?


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## A+ Slingshots

Sam said:


> I can't afford them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't customs be suspicious as to why I wanted 100 lead balls?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see.... No... it's not a problem at all!!!
Click to expand...

Awesome, I will save up to buy some from you.








In the mean time I think I'd better go 'kill' some cans! BTW I managed to hit a tennis-ball from over 10 metres away today! Using your PS-2!









PS: I really like your bands, they're cut really cleanly, do you mind if I ask what you use to cut them?
[/quote]

Thanks Sam..... anytime your ready I try to keep them in stock. I'm happy the PS-2 is working out well for you. I cut all my bands with rotary cutter. The key is to have good solid heavy templates or straight edge that won't bend, and to cut (without lifting the cutter ) in one long continuous roll. Easier said than done, but that's how I do it.


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## Sam

A+ Slingshots said:


> I can't afford them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't customs be suspicious as to why I wanted 100 lead balls?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see.... No... it's not a problem at all!!!
Click to expand...

Awesome, I will save up to buy some from you.







In the mean time I think I'd better go 'kill' some cans! BTW I managed to hit a tennis-ball from over 10 metres away today! Using your PS-2!









PS: I really like your bands, they're cut really cleanly, do you mind if I ask what you use to cut them?
[/quote]

Thanks Sam..... anytime your ready I try to keep them in stock. I'm happy the PS-2 is working out well for you. I cut all my bands with rotary cutter. The key is to have good solid heavy templates or straight edge that won't bend, and to cut (without lifting the cutter ) in one long continuous roll. Easier said than done, but that's how I do it.








[/quote]
Yeah I couldn't believe it when I hit it - with the slingshots I've made in the past I struggle to hit the broad side of a barn!









Would something like this be suitable?


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## A+ Slingshots

The link won't work for me Sam


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## Tex-Shooter

I have no trouble getting penetration with express bands! I have shoot through both sides of a steel can with the express bands. What was the stretch ratio and draw weight of the two band sets. I know that I cut my bands a little long so they can be shot on a long extended fork or by butterfly style. -- Tex-shooter


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## dgui

Tex-Shooter said:


> I have no trouble getting penetration with express bands! I have shoot through both sides of a steel can with the express bands. What was the stretch ratio and draw weight of the two band sets. I know that I cut my bands a little long so they can be shot on a long extended fork or by butterfly style. -- Tex-shooter


Tex, I have no trouble at all riping through both sides of a can as you have pictured as long as I am using 3/8 steel but I realy pull back. But any larger steel and then there is no penetration just a hard pounding. With the 5/8 marble penetration both sides also. I would have to conclude that the speeds are proper for the 3/8 steel and 5/8 marble. When you are talking express are you using two bands per fork? I only need one express per fork and its fast pleny for my targets.


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## dgui

A+ Slingshots said:


> as you said even the Gold Winners couldn't penetrate the bottom of the can, using 3/8" steel.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see that in the Dayhikers post Sam.... he couldn't do the marble test because his "Gold Winners" are broke.
> What he did write was....
> "But for a comparison of the rest of my tests, here is what came out: Gold Winners = multiple penetrations Express Bands = no penetrations"
Click to expand...

I have penetration every time with with 5/8 marbles and 3/8 steel ball via express bands if I use one on each fork I dont find using twin bands per for an advantage. Have not yet had the pleasure of using Gold Winners yet but im sure its coming.


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## Sam

OK guys, I must be doing something wrong - I just took a regular tin can (the ones that hold baked-beans,) and used two bricks to hold it in place firmly, then used my recently purchased PS-2, equipped with 'Gold Winner' bands to shoot 9.5mm / 3/8" nickel-coated steel ball-bearings first from, roughly 10m (sorry I have nothing to measure distance with accurately,) it left a small dent and rebounded about 5 or 6 metres; so I tried again, this time much closer - less than a metre. This time it left a larger dent, but failed to penetrate.









PS: I hit the can near the middle, one below the other and drew to my cheek: roughly 29"...


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## ZDP-189

A+ Slingshots said:


> I have no trouble getting penetration with express bands! I have shoot through both sides of a steel can with the express bands. What was the stretch ratio and draw weight of the two band sets. I know that I cut my bands a little long so they can be shot on a long extended fork or by butterfly style. -- Tex-shooter


I'd agree. If you're having trouble zipping through both sides of a soda can with Express Bands then you're doing something wrong.

Hunter Bands/ Gold Winners are more powerful, yes. But the difference between them and Express Bands aren't so much a matter of velocity, as the weight of the shot that can be brought up to that velocity. Ammo up to about 150grains should be about the same energy; light ammo may possibly be faster with Express Bands. Three hundred gain or heavier is where the Hunter Bands/ Gold Winners will leave the Express Bands standing. The huge mass would crush/destroy small game, whereas Express Bandswould merely kill or stun it.

If you're hunting game the size of a terrier to a beagle ("_size of", I'm not suggesting you hunt dogs_), then you'll need Hunter Bands/ Gold Winners. Otherwise, for pidgeon, corvids, rabbit and my preferred quarry soda cans, Express Bands are probably preferable because they'll do the job and are easier to control. I don't really buy the argument that you need heavier bands for longer range shots, because at the low velocity of a slingshot, speed does not really drop off with distance at ranges people can expect to hit a target with, as long as you're using metal bullets, rocks or marbles.


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## Sam

ZDP-189 said:


> I have no trouble getting penetration with express bands! I have shoot through both sides of a steel can with the express bands. What was the stretch ratio and draw weight of the two band sets. I know that I cut my bands a little long so they can be shot on a long extended fork or by butterfly style. -- Tex-shooter


I'd agree. If you're having trouble zipping through both sides of a soda can with Express Bands then you're doing something wrong.

Hunter Bands/ Gold Winners are more powerful, yes. But the difference between them and Express Bands aren't so much a matter of velocity, as the weight of the shot that can be brought up to that velocity. Ammo up to about 150grains should be about the same energy; light ammo may possibly be faster with Express Bands. Three hundred gain or heavier is where the Hunter Bands/ Gold Winners will leave the Express Bands standing. The huge mass would crush/destroy small game, whereas Express Bandswould merely kill or stun it.

If you're hunting game the size of a terrier to a beagle ("_size of", I'm not suggesting you hunt dogs_), then you'll need Hunter Bands/ Gold Winners. Otherwise, for pidgeon, corvids, rabbit and my preferred quarry soda cans, Express Bands are probably preferable because they'll do the job and are easier to control. I don't really buy the argument that you need heavier bands for longer range shots, because at the low velocity of a slingshot, speed does not really drop off with distance at ranges people can expect to hit a target with, as long as you're using metal bullets, rocks or marbles.
[/quote]
Dan I think you're the forum member who possesses the greatest knowledge of Classical Physics, judging by your blog. Sorry If I've missed anyone please step forward it would be great to have your input!









What's your official opinion on the external ballistics of slingshots and their importance in ethical hunting? What do you consider the minimum energy in FPE or Joules to be? What materials and calibres of projectile do you approve?

My understanding is that the most important factor is not kinetic energy but penetration value...


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## A+ Slingshots

Dan there seems to be a misconception. My "Gold Winner" bands are a Single tapered band that only pulls approx. 16lbs. at 28." I believe they should be comparable to Tex's (double) Express bands which is what the original post by Dayhiker was about. My "Gold Winners" are intended for target shooting and small game hunting. They are not unmanageable or uncontrollable in any way!
It is my "Ultra Power" (double) bands that are similar to Fish's Hunter bands.

Side note: This thread is kind of going all over the place now..... everyone should remember that while shooting cans is fun, tin can thickness and density can an does differ from maker to maker and from country to country. Shooting two different slingshot bands and ammo at the same can might be a an OK test, but not different cans, and makers and countries, temperatures etc;. Too many variables.

This reminds me of the fantastic debates that still crop up among traditional archers (of which I'm one) about bow speed and arrow weight. Friends, I can (most places) legally kill a deer with a 40lbs bow, but I always felt more confident using a 60-70lbs. bow because of the greater energy delivery. It wasn't needed .... but I liked having more power, and it worked for me. Arrows kill by cutting and producing blood loss so penetration is of primary importance. Slingshot ammo mostly kills by the shock and trauma produced by the impact energy. Penetration is of secondary importance to slingshot hunting. I still say heavy is good IF.... yes IF the shooter can handle the bands and ammo. But a well placed head shot with less energy bands and lighter ammo can certainly trump a body shot with a heavy band and ammo.

Let me conclude by saying you don't have to have the most powerful bands to hunt most small game. I believe you need "adequate" power and speed bands that you can effectively shoot accurately with. I believe every Vendor on this site that makes bands, have sets that can effectively fill that role. I really dislike comparisons, I know it' only natural and very human.... but I believe each has something unique to offer.

You don't need to "penetrate" cans to be an accurate shooter or even a successful slingshot hunter ..... but it is fun to do so.








Keep having fun everyone!!! Let's not forget that is really what this is all about!!!


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## Sam

A+ Slingshots said:


> Dan there seems to be a misconception. My "Gold Winner" bands are a Single tapered band that only pulls approx. 16lbs. at 28." I believe they should be comparable to Tex's (double) Express bands which is what the original post by Dayhiker was about. My "Gold Winners" are intended for target shooting and small game hunting. They are not unmanageable or uncontrollable in any way!
> It is my "Ultra Power" (double) bands that are similar to Fish's Hunter bands.
> 
> Side note: This thread is kind of going all over the place now..... everyone should remember that while shooting cans is fun, tin can thickness and density can an does differ from maker to maker and from country to country. Shooting two different slingshot bands and ammo at the same can might be a an OK test, but not different cans, and makers and countries, temperatures etc;. Too many variables.
> 
> This reminds me of the fantastic debates that still crop up among traditional archers (of which I'm one) about bow speed and arrow weight. Friends, I can (most places) legally kill a deer with a 40lbs bow, but I always felt more confident using a 60-70lbs. bow because of the greater energy delivery. It wasn't needed .... but I liked having more power, and it worked for me. Arrows kill by cutting and producing blood loss so penetration is of primary importance. Slingshot ammo mostly kills by the shock and trauma produced by the impact energy. Penetration is of secondary importance to slingshot hunting. I still say heavy is good IF.... yes IF the shooter can handle the bands and ammo. But a well placed head shot with less energy bands and lighter ammo can certainly trump a body shot with a heavy band and ammo.
> 
> Let me conclude by saying you don't have to have the most powerful bands to hunt most small game. I believe you need "adequate" power and speed bands that you can effectively shoot accurately with. I believe every Vendor on this site that makes bands, have sets that can effectively fill that role.
> 
> You don't need to "penetrate" cans to be an accurate shooter or even a successful slingshot hunter ..... but it is fun to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep having fun everyone!!! Let's not forget that is really what this is all about!!!


Well said. I think Dan confused your 'Gold Winners' with your 'Ultra Powers'.


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## ZDP-189

Sam said:


> What's your official opinion on the external ballistics of slingshots and their importance in ethical hunting? What do you consider the minimum energy in FPE or Joules to be? What materials and calibres of projectile do you approve?
> 
> My understanding is that the most important factor is not kinetic energy but penetration value...


I'm not a successful hunter and no expert and most of my opinion above is annecdotal, based on feedback from people that use my bands, on Jörg-style pudding plinking, and just a little hunting with my friends the Aeta.

Where I have direct experience is I have shot to death about three sets of Express Bands, three sets of Field Bands, a set of Target Bands, two sets of Hunter Bands, a set of Gold Winners and chronied, tested and videod them all with various weights of shot. Therefore I have a good feel for what kind of velocity and energy they deliver at various ranges.

I've also re-modelled roundball.exe from C++ into Excel, and I do remember just about enough physics to understand what's going on. At slingshot velocities and ranges, when using steel, copper or lead ball, wind drift and drag are small. A heavy band and a light band have similar dry firing speeds, but the light band is slowed more by the proportionally increased weight of the ball and pouch compared to the elastic. As a result, light shot has little slowing effect but low efficiency, especially on heavy bands. In short shooting heavy bands is devastating and efficient, but only when heaving big chunks of metal. Otherwise, there's little performance benefit.


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## Sam

ZDP-189 said:


> What's your official opinion on the external ballistics of slingshots and their importance in ethical hunting? What do you consider the minimum energy in FPE or Joules to be? What materials and calibres of projectile do you approve?
> 
> My understanding is that the most important factor is not kinetic energy but penetration value...


I'm not a successful hunter and no expert and most of my opinion above is annecdotal, based on feedback from people that use my bands, on Jörg-style pudding plinking, and just a little hunting with my friends the Aeta.

Where I have direct experience is I have shot to death about three sets of Express Bands, three sets of Field Bands, a set of Target Bands, two sets of Hunter Bands, a set of Gold Winners and chronied, tested and videod them all with various weights of shot. Therefore I have a good feel for what kind of velocity and energy they deliver at various ranges.

I've also re-modelled roundball.exe from C++ into Excel, and I do remember just about enough physics to understand what's going on. At slingshot velocities and ranges, when using steel, copper or lead ball, wind drift and drag are small. A heavy band and a light band have similar dry firing speeds, but the light band is slowed more by the proportionally increased weight of the ball and pouch compared to the elastic. As a result, light shot has little slowing effect but low efficiency, especially on heavy bands. In short shooting heavy bands is devastating and efficient, but only when heaving big chunks of metal. Otherwise, there's little performance benefit.
[/quote]
That's pretty much the conclusion I had drawn from reading your excellent blog entries. Just out of interest, how many shots did you get out of Bill's Natural latex bands in comparison to Perry's Theraband Gold bands?


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## Dayhiker

Tex-Shooter said:


> I have no trouble getting penetration with express bands! I have shoot through both sides of a steel can with the express bands. What was the stretch ratio and draw weight of the two band sets. I know that I cut my bands a little long so they can be shot on a long extended fork or by butterfly style. -- Tex-shooter


Bill, I am really sorry to have started this thread because it's an unfair comparison between two excellent products. I thought everyone would take it for what it's worth -- just a crude way to judge an unknown bandset.

But, to answer your questions to the best of my ability. The express bands were cut about 3/4" shorter than what you originally cut. And my draw length is 34". That's all I can tell you. I hit that can at least 5 times at 10 yards. One thing I will mention is that that shot on the bottom of the can did pierce the metal a little, but you can't see it in the pic.

Let me close by saying I do LOVE these express bands!!!


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## ZDP-189

Sam said:


> Well said. I think Dan confused your 'Gold Winners' with your 'Ultra Powers'.


I did!


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## Dayhiker

Well, it must have been the cans yesterday. Today, because of all this controversy I tried again with 3/8 steel vs. a steel can at 10 yards and the express bands.
This time I got penetration, but not always. First I shot at the can same as yesterday. I got one real good penetration of one side of the can, and some other shots that pierced a little but didn't go right through a side. Then I filled the can with water and the shot penetrated easily, and hit the other side hard enough to knock the can over.

Here is the fork and its victim









here is a picture of the 2 good penetrations









these are the other shots, as you can see the 3/8 steel beat that can up way more than the can I used yesterday. And some piercing of the metal occurred on a few shots.









After I took these pics, I shot at the can with 5/8 marbles and did nothing but make big dents. I then set up another identical can and filled it with water and the marble just dented the can. dgui, I don't know how you are getting marbles to shoot right through steel cans. From what I can see, they don't even come close.


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## dgui

Dayhiker said:


> Well, it must have been the cans yesterday. Today, because of all this controversy I tried again with 3/8 steel vs. a steel can at 10 yards and the express bands.
> This time I got penetration, but not always. First I shot at the can same as yesterday. I got one real good penetration of one side of the can, and some other shots that pierced a little but didn't go right through a side. Then I filled the can with water and the shot penetrated easily, and hit the other side hard enough to knock the can over.
> 
> Here is the fork and its victim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> here is a picture of the 2 good penetrations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> these are the other shots, as you can see the 3/8 steel beat that can up way more than the can I used yesterday. And some piercing of the metal occurred on a few shots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After I took these pics, I shot at the can with 5/8 marbles and did nothing but make big dents. I then set up another identical can and filled it with water and the marble just dented the can. dgui, I don't know how you are getting marbles to shoot right through steel cans. From what I can see, they don't even come close.


I Butterfly and the band measurement between pouch and fork is 9 inches and I have no trouble pouding through cans with marbles and 3/8 steel ball. But there is one thing that I have found by going through several of the express bands and it is the power of the bands can vary some but only occational. The express bands are top of the line for me. Another thing that may effect power is how thin and size of pouch and how its secured. And I also wonder if power can be affected how one follows through. I may have to conduct my own test and video. Do you Butterfly? It makes all the difference with speed in my opinion. I am in no way close to the experts on this forum however I think and from trying various slingshot differing in size, configuration, weight, thickness, material, to me some deliver a harder blow. And of course my opinion is very Un-scientific completely.


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## dgui

Dayhiker said:


> Oh, and by the way, the thought did occur to me that maybe the 3/8 was too light for the Express bands, so I used some 7/16 ammo (I think Bill recommends this), but still couldn't get penetration. Like I say, don't know what this means.


For me the 3/8 blows through a can, any can everytime. The size and weight must be right for the speed. But, 7/16 and 1/2 inch steel does not penetrate cans very easily for me. A hammar Grip may not allow you to pull back far enough to attain those speeds for penetration. Keep workin with the 3/8 and you will get it.


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## dgui

Dayhiker said:


> Oh, and by the way, the thought did occur to me that maybe the 3/8 was too light for the Express bands, so I used some 7/16 ammo (I think Bill recommends this), but still couldn't get penetration. Like I say, don't know what this means.


This is the remedy. Remove one express band from each fork and you will pull back very far very easily and the speed of the shot will increase dramatically but try the 3/8 steel ball and pull back man, pull back.


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## Dayhiker

dgui, I know this is possible, but this was not the purpose of my test. The purpose was to test the set as mailed. The Express bands come cut, doubled and attached to a pouch and so do the Gold Winners (except they aren't doubled). I just wanted to test the bandsets as they were. And I was talking about hunting bands. I don't think this butterfly thing is good for hunting, (BTW, I am now shooting full butterfly and a lot more accurately, using black theraband.)
That doggie looks like a cool customer.


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## whipcrackdeadbunny

Remember, the English were hiding behind rounded walls for quite a while, penetration tests are un-reliable on cans, one or two millimetres either way will make it ricochet. The bottom of the can is a good place to start. Yay physics!


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## Dayhiker

this is quick and dirty test, and you can tell when you hit the can dead on.


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## dgui

Dayhiker said:


> dgui, I know this is possible, but this was not the purpose of my test. The purpose was to test the set as mailed. The Express bands come cut, doubled and attached to a pouch and so do the Gold Winners (except they aren't doubled). I just wanted to test the bandsets as they were. And I was talking about hunting bands. I don't think this butterfly thing is good for hunting, (BTW, I am now shooting full butterfly and a lot more accurately, using black theraband.)
> That doggie looks like a cool customer.


OK!!!! I dont know Squat about Hunting Bands I treat bands the same as long as they do what I want. The doubled up Express Bands if you can pull them back to Butterfly position will bang-on through any can. But they are too strong to hold that far back for a couple of seconds to zero in on your prey or even for arial in flight killings. Yea ol Porky is into whatever I am. When I shoot in the back yard she is always checking out where the shot end up. But right now shes keeping an eye on my neighbor.


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## smitty

I haven't read where anyone except Tex has mentioned the "stretch ratio" used in the test. If one set of bands will stretch out to 900% and the other will stretch out only to 400% before "bottoming out", this should be considered in a "good-ole-boy" test like this tin can test. Everyone should keep in mind how much performance they want in the set of bands they are about to attach to their slingshot. Even as kids we would grab the pouch and the end of the rubber and stretch it out like we were aiming to find the farthest we could stretch the rubber we were going to put on our slingshot. You just keep adjusting the length with the non-pouch hand until you find the place on the rubber where you have it maxed out when at your full draw. This is then marked with a pen on each band. Now you know the point of maximum performance and the point of the least band life span. Every set of rubber is a bit different. If Tex bands will stretch further than Theraband gold and this isn't used it isn't taking advantage of the superior stretch offered by Tex bands. 
I know this all might seem a small issue to the casual reader, but reputation is on the line here. From what I have read, I don't think the stretch-factor was fully explored before the test. I always mark my hunting bands where maximum stretch is achieved about two inches past my anchor point, using the "how far will it stretch" test. This way I feel I am getting maximum performance without actually stretching the rubber to absolute maximum, which would severely shorten band life. My target bands are set up where I can pull them back to bottom out at four inches past my draw length.
I know it is a bit crude, but it has worked for me very well. To mention how many shots you make with a band set without noting the stretch ratio could be misleading. Low performance will increase band life and high performance will decrease band life.


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## Dayhiker

Smitty, you are correct, of course. But I think you missed my point. The bandsets come pre-cut and attached to a pouch. I wasn't experimenting with "How long should I cut these?" My test was a far more crude test and as I said from the start: essentially unscientific, therefore essentially unfair. Nobody's reputation is on the line here. Excpt mine, of course.









P.S. I don't approach slingshots as a science, I approach it as a form of Country art. We're prolly looking at this thing through different lenses.


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## smitty

I like the country boy approach too. I wasn't putting down what you were posting about at all, I was just adding my thoughts on everyones' posts about shooting bands and their performance levels. I think many beginners put the rubber on their slingshots too long, because the makers design extra length into them to accommodate different draw lengths. A method is needed to determine how long each persons length of rubber should be according to what they want in performance and band life. Respect to you Dayhiker.


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## Dayhiker

Hey, Smitty, most of what I know about making slingshots, I learned from you. Including what I know about chinese tubes. 
Respect right back atcha!


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## Sam

Maybe we should rename this thread: "VERY unscientific comparisons" ?


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## Dayhiker

Or how about, "IGNORE THIS POST"


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## A+ Slingshots

Now you guys are cracking me up!!!!


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## dgui

This is what I think about the entire post.


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## Dayhiker

Boy I'd like to take a shot at that with a clay ball!!


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## whipcrackdeadbunny

Here's something very un-scientific for you, I was thinking bout it the other day; as a measuring device, I think it would be a good standard to match the forearm length ... maybe butterfly shooters could match to one arm length or something similar ... it reminds me of feet/yards/inches?


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## dgui

Dayhiker said:


> Boy I'd like to take a shot at that with a clay ball!!


Clay Balls or not you better have gaggles on anyway because clay balls are popping out that anyways.


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## smitty

OK now, let's get serious ! This is a respectable slingshot forum, so the information should at least be correct. The stuff that comes out of that dogs' bohiney is not clay in any shape or form. I don't think Perry should have mentioned anything about cracks being up either. AND we will not give any kind of approval to sending clay ammo in the close proximity to any kind of mans' best friend. From the looks of it regular goggles would be of no use either. I think a gas mask should have been recommended. We will not be ignoring this kind of unscientific post...ever. Is that clear?


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## A+ Slingshots

Smitty.....my side is hurting from laughing!!!


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## Dayhiker




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## smitty

Come on Dayhiker, do it again, I know you are thinking how many posts did I fire, but you have to ask yourself one question...do you feel lucky...well do ya?


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## Dayhiker




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## Dayhiker




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## Dayhiker

Hah! I knew it.


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## smitty

Hey man!, you have to give me time to sleep on it . I ain't running away, I'm right here safe in my computer.


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## Dayhiker

That's all you got, huh?


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## USASlingshot

dgui, u sure love your dogs


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## dankung_shooter

Ok guys I do like the unscientific tests , but when I hear someone talk about shooting 3/8 steel and .44 cal lead with the same bands, what the? If anyone says their bands are good for both, they don't have a clue ( no offense A+). 3/8 steel weighs in at under 3.5 grams and .44 cal lead weighs in at 8.3 grams, ammo that is not even close to the same weight. I'm really trying to give this forum (and other forums) a fair chance, but when I see info that is so wrong I wonder if I'm wasting my time.

We really need a forum that is only dedicated to the advancement of slingshots.

No vendors should be allowed and especially no Amazon.com banners.

Forums should be about the truth and not a market place.


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## dgui

Im not getting the Point of the previous Post. No offence intended.


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## A+ Slingshots

dankung_shooter said:


> Ok guys I do like the unscientific tests , but when I hear someone talk about shooting 3/8 steel and .44 cal lead with the same bands, what the? If anyone says their bands are good for both, they don't have a clue ( no offense A+). 3/8 steel weighs in at under 3.5 grams and .44 cal lead weighs in at 8.3 grams, ammo that is not even close to the same weight. I'm really trying to give this forum (and other forums) a fair chance, but when I see info that is so wrong I wonder if I'm wasting my time.
> 
> We really need a forum that is only dedicated to the advancement of slingshots.
> 
> No vendors should be allowed and especially no Amazon.com banners.
> 
> Forums should be about the truth and not a market place.


Say what???? That's some way to make a post as a beginner to the forum......... Way to win friends and influence people bud!!!
I'll have you to know that I and the other vendors here that I know are first lovers of the sport and shooter....have been since I was a little boy..... I and most on here are well aware of the weights of ammo. Who said they were the same weight??? I certainly didn't. However, for the record again.... I will state that my "Gold Winner" bands shoot them both well!!!! Surely you don't think a band is capable of shooting only one weight of ammo? 
Vendors and other supporters help make this forum possible. I'm all for the truth...... haven't seen many on here that weren't. 
What I have seen on this forum and would like to protect is a kindness and camaraderie among the participants. 
This a fun hobby and this forum should be about fun not adversarial diatribe!!!


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## dankung_shooter

HI Dgui, I changed the topic a little. but from what I've read in this forum, a lot of the topics seem to get hijacked along the way. I was just replying to a comment early in this topic that was dead wrong.


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## A+ Slingshots

dankung_shooter said:


> HI Dgui, I changed the topic a little. but from what I've read in this forum, a lot of the topics seem to get hijacked along the way. I was just replying to a comment early in this topic that was dead wrong.


I read my posts carefully and all that I can find that you could have even remotely though was "dead wrong" was the fact that I stated "I think the "Gold Winner" band is really balanced in it's speed to power ration, and is particularly suited to 3/8" steel and .44 cal. lead."


I stand by what I said and can't see how anyone would think it is wrong. BTW I used the words "I think" and NOT "I know." These comments were based on my personal observations, shooting experience and recent tests of that band. While I might better have used the words "suited to 3/8" steel and up to .44 cal. lead" (which is what I was meaning and thought it implied) no attempt at being deceptive or a cunning salesman was being made! I don't know about others, but I do know I'm not that kind of man.


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## dankung_shooter

A+ first of all if you think that because I'm new to this forum, I am new to shooting you are sadly mistaken. Also my comments were not meant to offend anyone.

I am only interested in the advancement of slingshot design and band design.

I also think that vendor comments should be kept to the vendor section ( again I mean no disrespect to anyone) so the members of the forum can discuss topics without a vendors ability to influence the topic.


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## A+ Slingshots

dankung_shooter said:


> A+ first of all if you think that because I'm new to this forum, I am new to shooting you are sadly mistaken. Also my comments were not meant to offend anyone.
> 
> I am only interested in the advancement of slingshot design and band design.
> 
> I also think that vendor comments should be kept to the vendor section ( again I mean no disrespect to anyone) so the members of the forum can discuss topics without a vendors ability to influence the topic.


I'll say that you shouldn't think that because I'm a vendor that I'm new to shooting or care little about slingshot or band design. Indeed my little business developed out of my great love for and experience shooting slingshots!!! You Sir keep implying things that don't exist.

Vendor comments kept to the vendor section???? While you say they are not meant too...your comments continue to seem disrespectful and offensive and frankly reminiscent of someone with an axe to grind. All I can say is I'm glad you aren't making the forum rules. Maybe you should make your own.
Good night friends, I've tried to be patient....I'm done with this


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## dankung_shooter

OMG A+ relax its really not that big of a deal. Just let it go. Readers need to know that bands that work well with lite ammo (3/8 steel) aren't going to work well with with heavier ammo (.44 lead). Of course we could use them for both but I thought the reason we all read these forums was to learn how to get the best performance from our sling and therefor have more fun or maybe become a better shooter or even become a more realistic hunter because we are actually using bands powerful enough to shoot 44 cal lead so the animal doesn't suffer.

Sorry man its the truth.


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## NaturalFork

dankung_shooter said:


> OMG A+ relax its really not that big of a deal. Just let it go. Readers need to know that bands that work well with lite ammo (3/8 steel) aren't going to work well with with heavier ammo (.44 lead). Of course we could use them for both but I thought the reason we all read these forums was to learn how to get the best performance from our sling and therefor have more fun or maybe become a better shooter or even become a more realistic hunter because we are actually using bands powerful enough to shoot 44 cal lead so the animal doesn't suffer.
> 
> Sorry man its the truth.


Have you read any of this forum? The topics you speak of have been discussed heavily in other threads. I would refrain from criticizing anyone. We are all here to discuss slingshots and shooting. And that is exactly what we are doing.


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## A+ Slingshots

o


dankung_shooter said:


> OMG A+ relax its really not that big of a deal. Just let it go. Readers need to know that bands that work well with lite ammo (3/8 steel) aren't going to work well with with heavier ammo (.44 lead). Of course we could use them for both but I thought the reason we all read these forums was to learn how to get the best performance from our sling and therefor have more fun or maybe become a better shooter or even become a more realistic hunter because we are actually using bands powerful enough to shoot 44 cal lead so the animal doesn't suffer.
> 
> Sorry man its the truth.


Ok so I didn't go to bed just yet....... I don't relax well when someone is blatantly attacking my products and statements. I haven't done anything to impede the truth, learning, performance, fun or being a realistic hunter and to say otherwise is ludicrous. 
My "Gold Winner" has plenty of power for .44 cal. lead! My "Ultra Power" band has more!!! Ask those who have tried and used them.


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## dankung_shooter

So Recurvemaster when someone makes a comment we are not allowed to discuss it? If this info is so readily available how is it that a vendor doesn't know the truth. It seems that the same question is asked over and over again on this forum and nobody has figured it out.

With all do respect, if more people knew what was up there would have been no reason for me to make my original comment. Someone else would have made the comment first. Are we so scared of stepping on someones toes that we can even speak the truth.

Again I mean no disrespect to anyone.


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## NaturalFork

dankung_shooter said:


> So Recurvemaster when someone makes a comment we are not allowed to discuss it? If this info is so readily available how is it that a vendor doesn't know the truth. It seems that the same question is asked over and over again on this forum and nobody has figured it out.
> 
> With all do respect, if more people knew what was up there would have been no reason for me to make my original comment. Someone else would have made the comment first. Are we so scared of stepping on someones toes that we can even speak the truth.
> 
> Again I mean no disrespect to anyone.


What exactly was said that was false information or not the truth?


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## dankung_shooter

OK A+ are your bands really your bands or did you just steal (borrow) the band design from Fish. What, do you think that you tie leather to Thera-band and you are the owner of the design? Do you think that the real shooters of this forum don't know that Fish was the first to market those bands? Is this some kind of joke? It must be a joke to you because you cant even recommend what your bands ( really Fish's) are good for.

Please do not insult my intelligence.


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## ZDP-189

I'll weigh in with my tuppence worth.

On a given bandset, velocity varies with shot weight. The relationship is a gradual curve, with velocity dropping off as the weight increases. At the same time, kinetic energy increases. There is no technical optimum; it's a matter of subjective personal preference. So while you can tune a bandset to deliver what you may consider ideal for a ceertain shot weight or pick a shot weight that feels best with a particular bandset, a reasonable range of shot weights will work acceptably with any bandset. Stronger bands are more forgiving than light bands and Perry makes strong bands.

I've bought more of Perry's excellent products than anyone else's and they as good as they come.


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## A+ Slingshots

Where did this come from??? Fish is my mate and if he has a problem he can talk to me, which he does quite often. He has been sharing and helping me since I first started my business.


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## Dayhiker

now I'm really sorry I started this


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## Tex-Shooter

I think I was the first one to start selling flat slingshot bands in quantity back 2000. Now having said that, I am glad that there are others selling flat band sets and they make fine band sets. No I don't feel infringed upon at all. The slingshot market is not mine or anybody else’s exclusive market. The fact is, the more different slingshot products that are sold, the better it is for sport growth. If you want to spend about $6000 dollars for a patent that has to be renewed in 7 years to protect an idea, then you can do that also. The more the competition the more the interest and the more everybody will sell. For about 25 years now I have designed and sold products and as one product slows down I just create a new one. That is just the way of marketing. Red Fox had a skit about this and it went something like this. One person would get up and give the benefits of a chair, then Red would get up and say, yes but does it do this and balance a chair on his head. -- Tex


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## dgui

Im sorry I stuck this in here .


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## A+ Slingshots

Tex-Shooter said:


> I think I was the first one to start selling flat slingshot bands in quantity back 2000. Now having said that, I am glad that there are others selling flat band sets and they make fine band sets. No I don't feel infringed upon at all. The slingshot market is not mine or anybody else's exclusive market. The fact is, the more different slingshot products that are sold, the better it is for sport growth. If you want to spend about $6000 dollars for a patent that has to be renewed in 7 years to protect an idea, then you can do that also. The more the competition the more the interest and the more everybody will sell. For about 25 years now I have designed and sold products and as one product slows down I just create a new one. That is just the way of marketing. Red Fox had a skit about this and it went something like this. One person would get up and give the benefits of a chair, then Red would get up and say, yes but does it do this and balance a chair on his head. -- Tex


Agreed Tex.....good word!!!







Now may the Lord give me the grace and ingenuity you have had through the years!!!


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## smitty

I like the wisdom we get from Tex ! Quite a guy there.


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## Brooklyn00003

when i got my first slingshot from fish with the hunterbands i shot 9.5mm steal with it and lasted 600 shots. I never tried it again to shoot with hunterbands so i dont knwo if again would last 600 but if yes then it means you can shoot both.


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## whipcrackdeadbunny

This topic never ends!


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## Sam

dankung_shooter said:


> OMG A+ relax its really not that big of a deal. Just let it go. Readers need to know that bands that work well with lite ammo (3/8 steel) aren't going to work well with with heavier ammo (.44 lead). Of course we could use them for both but I thought the reason we all read these forums was to learn how to get the best performance from our sling and therefor have more fun or maybe become a better shooter or even become a more realistic hunter because we are actually using bands powerful enough to shoot 44 cal lead so the animal doesn't suffer.
> 
> Sorry man its the truth.


They have a 16lb draw weight a 30". They're *PERFECT* for 0.44" lead!


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## mr.joel

[quote name='dankung_shooter' date='24 August 2010 - 06:46 AM' timestamp='1282621604' post='21617']
OMG A+ relax its really not that big of a deal. Just let it go. Readers need to know that bands that work well with lite ammo (3/8 steel) aren't going to work well with with heavier ammo (.44 lead). Of course we could use them for both but I thought the reason we all read these forums was to learn how to get the best performance from our sling and therefor have more fun or maybe become a better shooter or even become a more realistic hunter because we are actually using bands powerful enough to shoot 44 cal lead so the animal doesn't suffer.

Sorry man its the truth.


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## Dayhiker

Brilliant!!!


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## halbart

dgui said:


> 'Dayhiker' said:
> 
> 
> 
> dgui, I know this is possible, but this was not the purpose of my test. The purpose was to test the set as mailed. The Express bands come cut, doubled and attached to a pouch and so do the Gold Winners (except they aren't doubled). I just wanted to test the bandsets as they were. And I was talking about hunting bands. I don't think this butterfly thing is good for hunting, (BTW, I am now shooting full butterfly and a lot more accurately, using black theraband.)That doggie looks like a cool customer.
> 
> 
> 
> OK!!!! I dont know Squat about Hunting Bands I treat bands the same as long as they do what I want. The doubled up Express Bands if you can pull them back to Butterfly position will bang-on through any can. But they are too strong to hold that far back for a couple of seconds to zero in on your prey or even for arial in flight killings. Yea ol Porky is into whatever I am. When I shoot in the back yard she is always checking out where the shot end up. But right now shes keeping an eye on my neighbor.
Click to expand...

Old dogs are great. They,ve been here, done that and got the t shirt. They,ve got character!


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## All Buns Glazing

Nice one Perry! You've offended someone with your crazy band claims! I think you should quit outta the business. You've had a good run ;-)


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