# best gun for the job



## USASlingshot

on my "melting lead thread" (that rhymes







) there was talk about self deffence weapons. post what you think is the best gun for self deffence. ill start, for my house i would have a .45 magnum colt revolver, my vehicle would have some type of low calibur postol


----------



## NoSugarRob

.


----------



## Sam

USASlingshot said:


> on my "melting lead thread" (that rhymes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) there was talk about self deffence weapons. post what you think is the best gun for self deffence. ill start, for my house i would have a .45 magnum colt revolver, my vehicle would have some type of low calibur postol


Not really a 'Hunting' Topic, but I'll give my two pennies anyway. Personally I would opt for a Glock 30, for my conceal carry and Glock 19 for home defence... but this is all academic anyway as my government doesn't value my safety - they're much more concerned about the criminals'!


----------



## Tex-Shooter

I like a pump shotgun with a pistol grip stock for self defense. I like a 20 gauge with #3 buck shot for the compactness and low recoil. It is what I carried when I worked on the road. For a conceled weapon, a small automatic in a wallet holster. -- Tex
http://unclegeorgeswalletholster.com/default.aspx


----------



## Sam

Tex-Shooter said:


> I like a pump shotgun with a pistol grip stock for self defense. I like a 20 gauge with #3 buck shot for the compactness and low recoil. It is what I carried when I worked on the road. For a conceled weapon, a small automatic in a wallet holster. -- Tex
> http://unclegeorgesw...om/default.aspx


Let me get this right, you used to carry a pump action shotgun??









That's a sweet wallet holster also...


----------



## USASlingshot

Sam, I believe he ment in his truck/vehicle. An AR-15 would be another nice home deffence weapon, the 223 is pretty big


----------



## Tex-Shooter

Yep you got it in my van, right out in plain view, but never out of state. -- Tex


----------



## NaturalFork

I agree. The shot gun is great for self defence. And zombie killing.


----------



## USASlingshot

.22s are good for side arm. I was told by devans dad who is a cop that the .22 is deadly because the bullet bounces around your body going through important veins, or anything else.


----------



## huey224

would this work?


----------



## Sam

USASlingshot said:


> .22s are good for side arm. I was told by devans dad who is a cop that the .22 is deadly because the bullet bounces around your body going through important veins, or anything else.


I agree, although as in most defensive situations you'll be shooting from a very close range and with muzzle energies exceeding 200ft/lb I think they would be ideal. I think it gets a lot of bad press - please bare in mind I have only ever shot cheap air pistols and competition grade .22LR rifles as pistols are completely outlawed in the UK, although shootings with illegally owned firearms, mainly pistols, are not uncommon. You may be aware of two terribly tragic isolated incidents occurring recently here in the UK, the worst of which involved a psychopath called Derrick Bird, who shot went on a rampage killing12 people and seriously injuring more than twice as many before doing the world a favour. What is even worse is that both of the firearms in question were legally owned which I am afraid will have seriously negative ramifications on the shooting sport in general.


----------



## Sam

huey224 said:


> would this work?


Assuming they have lead inside them, yes definitely! Although I think all your intruder will need to hear is the idiosyncratic sound of you loading it before prudently running 400metres at an Olympic speed!
















Interesting fact. Here in the UK 'home defence' is not a valid reason for obtaining a firearms license or shotgun certificate!


----------



## USASlingshot

Sam said:


> .22s are good for side arm. I was told by devans dad who is a cop that the .22 is deadly because the bullet bounces around your body going through important veins, or anything else.


I agree, although as in most defensive situations you'll be shooting from a very close range and with muzzle energies exceeding 200ft/lb I think they would be ideal. I think it gets a lot of bad press - please bare in mind I have only ever shot cheap air pistols and competition grade .22LR rifles as pistols are completely outlawed in the UK, although shootings with illegally owned firearms, mainly pistols, are not uncommon. You may be aware of two terribly tragic isolated incidents occurring recently here in the UK, the worst of which involved a psychopath called Derrick Bird, who shot went on a rampage killing12 people and seriously injuring more than twice as many before doing the world a favour. What is even worse is that both of the firearms in question were legally owned which I am afraid will have seriously negative ramifications on the shooting sport in general.
[/quote]

sam, i was not talking about a LR just a regular .22 pistol. i would think the .22LR has enough kick to break a bone and go through. idk though


----------



## Sam

USASlingshot said:


> .22s are good for side arm. I was told by devans dad who is a cop that the .22 is deadly because the bullet bounces around your body going through important veins, or anything else.


I agree, although as in most defensive situations you'll be shooting from a very close range and with muzzle energies exceeding 200ft/lb I think they would be ideal. I think it gets a lot of bad press - please bare in mind I have only ever shot cheap air pistols and competition grade .22LR rifles as pistols are completely outlawed in the UK, although shootings with illegally owned firearms, mainly pistols, are not uncommon. You may be aware of two terribly tragic isolated incidents occurring recently here in the UK, the worst of which involved a psychopath called Derrick Bird, who shot went on a rampage killing12 people and seriously injuring more than twice as many before doing the world a favour. What is even worse is that both of the firearms in question were legally owned which I am afraid will have seriously negative ramifications on the shooting sport in general.
[/quote]

sam, i was not talking about a LR just a regular .22 pistol. i would think the .22LR has enough kick to break a bone and go through. idk though
[/quote]
A .22LR can hit with over 200ft/lb of force, which is easily enough to go straight through a human!


----------



## USASlingshot

yah, the guy that butchers devans pigs and cows uses a .22LR for pigs and .22 magnum for full size cows!


----------



## Bill Hays

Like Tex said... the absolute best home defense gun is a shorter barreled pump action 12 gauge shotgun with an attached 200 minimum lumen led flashlight. I'd keep the the standard buttstock but might consider a pistol grip fore-end. Some believe a double barrel would be better, as it'd be lighter and easier to use... but I like the deterrent value of the pump action... rack the slide and most bad guys will soil themselves before hitting the door at a dead run.
For a conceal carry pistol... It all depends on how you intend to carry, your proficiency and whether you want to use the pistol for other purposes as well.
I know many deputies/police like a small kahr 9mm as a backup... whereas others are comfortable and swear by a light revolver like the S&W chief's special in .38, or the airweight.
Me personally, I prefer a Beretta 92F with custom grips and lasermax internal laser as a side arm. A Walther PPK/S .380 as a backup... and a Mossberg 500 12 gauge with 6 round tube, attached 900 lumen light and 18 inch barrel, using 00 Buck for clearing structures.

If worried about overpenetration, like in your own home where family is in the next room, you can use #6 shot in the 12 gauge... a few pellets will penetrate the walls, but it still possesses more than enough killing power. And don't get me wrong. If you have an intruder, you don't want "stopping" power that may only wound, you want KILLING power. If you're not willing to kill the assailant... then don't buy a gun. Buy a few kid's aluminum T-ball bats instead and put them in several places throughout the house.


----------



## jephroux

tex got my vote
ive got 2 in my house 
one in the front of the house an one in the back
45acp is a well proven man stoper with just about
any grain 
9mm is very reliable an through a glock 17 r 19 its
about as good as it gets 
the big thing here is it is shot placement 
9mm is very fast so solid mass is what you wna hit
BUT THE BEST ONE IS THE ONE YOU GOT IN YOUR HAND
WHEN YOU NEED IT AN KNOW HOW TO USE IT


----------



## USASlingshot

so i guess the majority says shotgun. how about a .50 cal pistol like the desert eagle? haha


----------



## Tex-Shooter

I started carrying a pistol grip shotgun in my work van when a 357 mag. did not scare a guy high on drugs and heeled. I got to thinking about it and wondered if the mag would have stopped him before he shot me. I am very glad it did not come to that. A 20 gage with #3 buck don’t sound like it has a lot of pop, but at 10 or 15 feet its lights out for good. I used to practice with my 38 service revolver, just using primers (no powder) and wax bullets. They would go through a 1/4 sheet of plywood. I would not want to get hit with a primer loaded wax bullet. When we were young a buddy of mine had been hunting with his dad. He was wearing waders. On the way home his dad had to stop somewhere. While he was waiting he was playing around with his 22 Single Six Ruger and it accidently went off. He said that he was looking for the hole in the floorboard of the car and could not find it, so he opened the door and got out. When he stepped down his waders wend slush, slush. He had shot himself in the leg and did not even know it and his waders were filling up with Blood. The bullet had broke a major bone and then traveled down his leg and broke a smaller bone in his foot. A 22 long rifle is a very under rated round. Poachers use them all the time to take deer. -- Tex


----------



## Bill Hays

No doubt about it, a .22 lr can kill pretty much anything in North America with a well placed shot... but in a situation where you have serious adrenaline pumping, like you would have with an intruder, your aim will most certainly suffer. In an extreme stress situation you just can't beat a 12 gauge.
In my time as a Deputy, I've seen some pretty amazing stuff... guys on PCP who don't feel pain at all, pepper spray completely ineffective, impact weapons totally not working, taser works only so long as it's pumping in the juice, etc... believe me, a 12 gauge loaded with 00 buck will take care of them.

If I had to carry a pistol in a high stress situation, and I've had to a few times... I want something that has a lot of bullets (my 92F has 15 round mags), has a decent bullet weight when using hollow points, is easy to point shoot naturally without aiming with the sights, is extremely reliable and if a jam or misfire occurs is able to be cleared immediately. The Beretta 92F fits the bill... second best in my opinion would be a Sig Sauer, and third is the Glock 17L.

Now, as far as a hunting round is concerned... I tend to favor the .308 winchester coming out of my Remington 700 police rifle... If you can see it, you can hit it. For deer or pretty much anything in North America, the .308 is plenty to take it out. 
Second favorite would be the .243... which is really just a necked down .308, super flat shooting, super penetration without tearing up to much meat etc... it's also my opinion the Military should have adopted the .243 over the .223. Having shot thousands upon thousands of rounds of .223, .243 and .308 as well as many other calibers... 
The .308 is just a lot more versatile for the many different situations and types of hunting you may want to do. Heavy bullets for serious impact, saboted bullets for minimal meat destruction, etc.
The .243 can kill pretty much anything as well... but you just can't make the bullet heavy enough to cause the trauma you might like to cause in some situations.
The .223... nice for long range plinking, killing dog size on down animals and the ammo is cheap.


----------



## snakeshack

Bill Hays said:


> Like Tex said... the absolute best home defense gun is a shorter barreled pump action 12 gauge shotgun with an attached 200 minimum lumen led flashlight. I'd keep the the standard buttstock but might consider a pistol grip fore-end. Some believe a double barrel would be better, as it'd be lighter and easier to use... but I like the deterrent value of the pump action... rack the slide and most bad guys will soil themselves before hitting the door at a dead run.
> For a conceal carry pistol... It all depends on how you intend to carry, your proficiency and whether you want to use the pistol for other purposes as well.
> I know many deputies/police like a small kahr 9mm as a backup... whereas others are comfortable and swear by a light revolver like the S&W chief's special in .38, or the airweight.
> Me personally, I prefer a Beretta 92F with custom grips and lasermax internal laser as a side arm. A Walther PPK/S .380 as a backup... and a Mossberg 500 12 gauge with 6 round tube, attached 900 lumen light and 18 inch barrel, using 00 Buck for clearing structures.
> 
> If worried about over-penetration, like in your own home where family is in the next room, you can use #6 shot in the 12 gauge... a few pellets will penetrate the walls, but it still possesses more than enough killing power. And don't get me wrong. If you have an intruder, you don't want "stopping" power that may only wound, you want KILLING power. If you're not willing to kill the assailant... then don't buy a gun. Buy a few kid's aluminum T-ball bats instead and put them in several places throughout the house.


You are right on the money on the first and second post, although I might disagree with you for western long range hunting: I'm partial to a 7mm mag or a .30-06.
















I use a short shotgun with bird shoot in the house. Just take two pieces of Sheetrock with a 4" air gap and shoot it with different rounds and then think of a family member on the other side of it!







Now take a ham leg and shoot it with bird shot at less than 10 yards (a long shot indoors) and look at the massive damage! I have done these tests. No deer rifle and no big caliber hand gun for me inside the house! By the way, I own all of the pre-mentioned. As far as the .22 anything; yes, it can be fatal, but how long will it take to die? More humans and deer are killed by .22 fire than any other caliber, but again, what damage can someone inflect during the time it takes to die.

I do suggest anyone thinking of owning a firearm and using it for protection to take some real training! I have always been into hunting and also into tactical shooting. i have completed the handgun and combat shotgun classes at Frontsight. They have been the best training I have ever received. Practice and be proficient in anything you are thinking of using because when the chips are down, it MUST be second nature!









Oh, this is funny! Perry of A+ should find this funny! I'm in Texas working this week and a guy gave this to me today. It's from A+ home town.


----------



## Tex-Shooter

Since we are varying from the original topic, how about this gun for hunting insects. Yes it is a real pistol and does shoot, and cost less than one dollar. It is stored some where and I can’t find it right now, but I am sure that it shoots a #8 lead shot. It was sold my mail order in the 1950's. – BANG -- Tex


----------



## NightKnight

I would take a Springfield XDm 9MM(19+1 mag) or a Beretta PX4 Subcom 9MM(13+1 mag).The former for capacity and accuracy, and the latter for size and capacity.


----------



## Sam

Here's something I'm sure you'll all love - better than **** IMO!


----------



## USASlingshot

wow, the bullet was barley effected by the metal


----------



## Jaybird

The best gun for self defense is one you are familiar with and can shoot straight in a high stress situation with out thinking about it.But there is a lot to think about before you point a gun at someone.You must be prepared to shoot if they don't do what you tell them or they will take the gun off of you and shove it down your throat.Never point a gun at someone unless you have to and if you do be prepared to use it


----------



## USASlingshot

me personaly, i cant think about taking someones life unless mine was threatened. if someone enters my house with intent to take something or harm someone they better be ready for something to go down


----------



## Jaybird

Evan and Devan
I don't think any sane person wants to take a life.If someone is in your home to do you or yours harm you have to do what you have to do.It is not a nice subject to talk about.Good luck in your slingshot sales and everything else you do.


----------



## USASlingshot

Thx


----------



## pelleteer

I'd say for self defense at a fixed location like home or place of business (if applicable) or from a vehicle that you work out of, it's pretty hard to beat a shotgun. Could be either 20 or 12 gauge (both have the widest selection of ammo and best ammo availability across the USA) and should be compact enough to be maneuverable. Pump action would be my choice.

For carry, it's gotta be a handgun of some type for obvious reasons. I agree with Jay that what style of gun and what caliber you choose are very much secondary to the reliability of the gun, your ability to shoot it well, and your ability to carry it comfortably. No gun is any good if it's not realiable, or you can't hit with it, or you leave it at home because it's too big and/or heavy to carry. If at all possible, go to a shop with a built in range where you can rent out and test various handguns before deciding on one.


----------



## Sam

pelleteer said:


> I'd say for self defense at a fixed location like home or place of business (if applicable) or from a vehicle that you work out of, it's pretty hard to beat a shotgun. Could be either 20 or 12 gauge (both have the widest selection of ammo and best ammo availability across the USA) and should be compact enough to be maneuverable. Pump action would be my choice.
> 
> For carry, it's gotta be a handgun of some type for obvious reasons. I agree with Jay that what style of gun and what caliber you choose are very much secondary to the reliability of the gun, your ability to shoot it well, and your ability to carry it comfortably. No gun is any good if it's not realiable, or you can't hit with it, or you leave it at home because it's too big and/or heavy to carry. If at all possible, go to a shop with a built in range where you can rent out and test various handguns before deciding on one.


Wouldn't a semi-auto shotgun be more effective than a pump action?


----------



## USASlingshot

sam, I think it's all preference. I would go with semi but like I said it's all about preference


----------



## pelleteer

Yes, it's mainly personal preference.


----------



## Sam

USASlingshot said:


> Yes, it's mainly personal preference.


Oh OK, they have less restrictive legislation and generally hold more cartridges right? Also that idiosyncratic 'click' has gotta be a pretty good deterrent!


----------



## NoLove

I prefer something like this...


----------



## mr.joel

Tex-Shooter said:


> Since we are varying from the original topic, how about this gun for hunting insects. Yes it is a real pistol and does shoot, and cost less than one dollar. It is stored some where and I can't find it right now, but I am sure that it shoots a #8 lead shot. It was sold my mail order in the 1950's. - BANG -- Tex


What is the propellant and primer? P.S. USA Slingshot there is no such thing as a .45 Magnum Colt revolver.


----------



## pelleteer

mr.joel said:


> USA Slingshot there is no such thing as a .45 Magnum Colt revolver.


True. I figured maybe he was thinking of the Colt Anaconda, which came in .44 mag and .45 Colt and was getting the calibers mixed up.


----------



## Tex-Shooter

mr.joel said:


> Since we are varying from the original topic, how about this gun for hunting insects. Yes it is a real pistol and does shoot, and cost less than one dollar. It is stored some where and I can't find it right now, but I am sure that it shoots a #8 lead shot. It was sold my mail order in the 1950's. - BANG -- Tex


What is the propellant and primer? P.S. USA Slingshot there is no such thing as a .45 Magnum Colt revolver.
[/quote]
Back then it was a single stick on round cap pistol cap. I don't think that you could get them to day. I think that any cap pistol cap would work if fit on properly. It shot harder than you might think. I don't shoot this one now because it has been shot so much that the lock is getting loose. I would not be afraid to shoot it, but I just don't want to take a chance on breaking the lock. You just don't see these little guys any more. -- Tex


----------



## Tex-Shooter

I found the little guy and took these two additional pictures of him. He is 3 1/4 inches long by 1 1/2 inches high. It did shoot a #8 lead shot. In the late 50’s you could buy them in some stores that sold cap pistols and out of some magazines. I also had another six shot cap pistol that shot plastic bullets, but I don’t have it anymore. In a store it cost about 95 cents. Back then you could buy a real nice Gene Autry or Roy Rogers pistol set for about $2.50. Today the same sets will bring well over $200 dollars in nice condition with the box. I had many toy and real guns that I wish I still had. I had two fully engraved Browning lighting grade shot guns they cost $180 at the time that I bought them. About 4 years later I sold them for about $400 each and thought I cut a slick lick. I don’t have hardly any of the things that I had 46 years ago. I wish I did! -- Tex


----------



## bunnybuster

For home protection of myself and family, I would choose my 12ga., winchester, camp defender.
She holds 7 rounds. 6 in the tube, and one in the pipe.
For carry....it would be my ruger vaquero in .45 long colt, or my hi point, 9mm auto.


----------



## Sam

Tex-Shooter said:


> I found the little guy and took these two additional pictures of him. He is 3 1/4 inches long by 1 1/2 inches high. It did shoot a #8 lead shot. In the late 50's you could buy them in some stores that sold cap pistols and out of some magazines. I also had another six shot cap pistol that shot plastic bullets, but I don't have it anymore. In a store it cost about 95 cents. Back then you could buy a real nice Gene Autry or Roy Rogers pistol set for about $2.50. Today the same sets will bring well over $200 dollars in nice condition with the box. I had many toy and real guns that I wish I still had. I had two fully engraved Browning lighting grade shot guns they cost $180 at the time that I bought them. About 4 years later I sold them for about $400 each and thought I cut a slick lick. I don't have hardly any of the things that I had 46 years ago. I wish I did! -- Tex


Bill at least you're allowed to own a bloody firearm and don't live in a country where the government values the safety of its criminals above honest citizens!









Anyway if I were actually allowed to defend myself from the abundance of criminals who roam our streets (a problem only compounded by our current financial mess,) I have changed my mind as to what I'd carry. For my conceal carry, I'd carry a Glock 26 in a nice leather holster, modified with 'Night Sights' for quick target acquisition in low lighting (realistically where most encounters are going to occur,) talon grip, LaserMax Internal laser - for situations were it wouldn't be practical to acquire a line of sight.










loaded with a 10 round magazine + plus one in the chamber - Glock owning one of the few designs that allows you to safely do this. I would have two spare mags hidden under my belt, using a leather holster specifically designed for this, all would be loaded with the best 9mm hollow points I could afford.

For home defence I would have an impenetrable metal safe fixed just above my head on the wall, in my bedroom which would instantaneously open when only I put my finger on it and simultaneously alert the local Police station and play Escala - Palladio very loudly through several speakers discretely located throughout the house!







. Inside would be Glock 17, loaded with a standard, 19 round magazine + one in the chamber, along with 5 identical magazines (overkill?







) three would be loaded with hollow points (one of which would be in the pistol,) the other three round-nosed FMJs for armoured assailants - preparing for a highly unlikely scenario does not make you 'paranoid' merely prudent IMHO.

The pistol itself would again be modified with a Talon Grip, internal laser and night sights it would also have a super-bright tactical flash-light fixed to the lower rail, a lower - but sensible - trigger pull to aid accuracy. If there were children younger than 14 in my house I would also attach a quality suppressor for obvious reasons - otherwise I would view a loud report as an advantage.

From the above information most people would probably infer that I have some sort of pathological psychotic disorder - I don't!


----------



## Sam

Oh sweet my restrictions are off - I'm a reformed man I promise!


----------



## Sam

Lol - guests might infer - from the location of this topic - that our intention is to hunt people!
















In which case I would opt for one of these:










PS: The British army posses the best snipers in the world - just look at the statistics!









EDIT: Just stumbled across this lil' "Problem Solver" - get it?














:









Awww!









*Specifications:*


*Caliber: .22 Short*

*Capacity: 5*

*Material: 17-4 pH stainless steel*

*Barrel Length: 1 1/8"*

*Overall Length: 3 5/8"*

*Overall Height: 2 3/8"*

*Width: 13/16"*

*Weight: 4 oz. unloaded*

*Suggested Retail Price: $199.00*



Now a .22 short obviously isn't the most effective self-defence round, but you can get ones producing >190J - which with a hollow point is enough to solve most problems...


----------



## USASlingshot

pelleteer said:


> USA Slingshot there is no such thing as a .45 Magnum Colt revolver.


True. I figured maybe he was thinking of the Colt Anaconda, which came in .44 mag and .45 Colt and was getting the calibers mixed up.








[/quote]
Coltsmfg.com It says classic .45 long...


----------



## NoLove

I used to have a Glock Model 23 with that Laser Guide Rod and was not at all pleased with it. Now, I have to confess that was around 6 years ago so there may have been some improvements to them since I had mine but back then where the red dot was... was not even within 2 feet of where my bullet was going at 20 yards. I even ran bench tests with as much variable control as I could manage just to make sure it wasn't just me. At $450 just for the laser guide rod I deemed it a total waste of money. Loved the Glock though.. always have.


----------



## pelleteer

My personal choice for home defense?

BOOMSTICK!!!

Load that puppy with some 00 buck and you're ready to go!


----------



## Henry the Hermit

mr.joel said:


> Since we are varying from the original topic, how about this gun for hunting insects. Yes it is a real pistol and does shoot, and cost less than one dollar. It is stored some where and I can't find it right now, but I am sure that it shoots a #8 lead shot. It was sold my mail order in the 1950's. - BANG -- Tex


What is the propellant and primer? P.S. USA Slingshot there is no such thing as a .45 Magnum Colt revolver.
[/quote]

Technically there is, except it's called the .454 Casull.

"developed in 1957 by Dick Casull and Jack Fulmer.[sup][3][/sup] It was first announced in November 1959 by _Guns & Ammo_ magazine. The basic design was a lengthened and structurally improved .45 Colt case. .45 Colt cartridges can fit into the .454's chambers, but not the other way around because of the lengthened case, (very similar to the way .38 Special cartridges can fit into the longer chambers of a .357 Magnum and .44 Special cartridges can fit into the longer chambers of a .44 Magnum" - from Wikipedia.


----------



## philly

My carry gun is a .45 colt new agent in a galco strong side holster. It has crimson trace laser grips, very accurate. And compact. For quick trip to 7-11, I carry a beretta .25 auto In the watch pocket of my jeans.
Philly


----------



## USASlingshot

philly said:


> My carry gun is a .45 colt new agent in a galco strong side holster. It has crimson trace laser grips, very accurate. And compact. For quick trip to 7-11, I carry a beretta .25 auto In the watch pocket of my jeans.
> Philly


u sound prepared for about anything. do you have a rifle or something at home?


----------



## Bill Hays

NoLove said:


> I used to have a Glock Model 23 with that Laser Guide Rod and was not at all pleased with it. Now, I have to confess that was around 6 years ago so there may have been some improvements to them since I had mine but back then where the red dot was... was not even within 2 feet of where my bullet was going at 20 yards. I even ran bench tests with as much variable control as I could manage just to make sure it wasn't just me. At $450 just for the laser guide rod I deemed it a total waste of money. Loved the Glock though.. always have.


Man I would've sent it back for a refund... as there is definitely something wrong with it.
I have a lasermax guide rod laser in my beretta and it is dead bang on at 15 yards. I've only had to draw down only a few times in my life, but when I did and that blinking red laser dot appears center of body mass... attitudes get right VERY quickly.


----------



## Sam

Bill Hays said:


> I used to have a Glock Model 23 with that Laser Guide Rod and was not at all pleased with it. Now, I have to confess that was around 6 years ago so there may have been some improvements to them since I had mine but back then where the red dot was... was not even within 2 feet of where my bullet was going at 20 yards. I even ran bench tests with as much variable control as I could manage just to make sure it wasn't just me. At $450 just for the laser guide rod I deemed it a total waste of money. Loved the Glock though.. always have.


Man I would've sent it back for a refund... as there is definitely something wrong with it.
I have a lasermax guide rod laser in my beretta and it is dead bang on at 15 yards. I've only had to draw down only a few times in my life, but when I did and that blinking red laser dot appears center of body mass... attitudes get right VERY quickly.
[/quote]
I can imagine!







I would primarily use it for when I couldn't acquire a line of sight, or for rapid target acquisition on the move - anyway it's all academic for me as even single shot .22LR target pistols are completely illegal over here - our Olympic team is forced to train outside of their own country - and they say we're no longer under a monarchy!


----------



## USASlingshot

glocks are nice, i always thought they were a good quality. maybe you got a bad one off the line


----------



## Jaybird

Evan and Devan,I don't think he said amything was wrong with the Glock,it was the laser.There is a man in my club that shoots competition with a Glock Mod.34 and has 22000 rounds thru it to date.The Glock looks like a toy gun,but they are very good and dependable.


----------



## philly

USASlingshot said:


> My carry gun is a .45 colt new agent in a galco strong side holster. It has crimson trace laser grips, very accurate. And compact. For quick trip to 7-11, I carry a beretta .25 auto In the watch pocket of my jeans.
> PhillyHave 13 long guns and 7 handguns, also reload all my ammo
> Philly


u sound prepared for about anything. do you have a rifle or something at home?
[/quote]


----------



## Sam

Jaybird said:


> Evan and Devan,I don't think he said amything was wrong with the Glock,it was the laser.There is a man in my club that shoots competition with a Glock Mod.34 and has 22000 rounds thru it to date.The Glock looks like a toy gun,but they are very good and dependable.


They look like the exact opposite of toys, no thrills with only essential features. I wish I could own one so badly!


----------



## Jaybird

Sam,If you handled a 1911,beretta,or other all steel guns you would know what I mean.I have all three and I love the Glock.


----------



## Tom Krein

In an semi-automatic I would stick with 9mm, .40S&W or .45 ACP. Depending on your skill level. If you are new to guns or don't have a LOT of experience I would recommend the 9mm with good hollow point ammo. In wheel guns I would stick with a .38/.357 mag.

While a .22 will PROBABLY get the job done, when your life is on the line or the life of a loved one you want to stack the deck in your favor!

My personal favorite is the 10mm. About 4 years ago I had to talk down to very aggresive and probably methed up guys that were beating a guy with a fence post.... it ended up working out, but was pretty tense for a while. I had a Dan Wesson 1911 in 10mm and I felt under gunned! I now carry a Glock 20....

Unless you live by yourself I would highly suggest not using magnum guns in your house and for sure no AR 15's! Over penetration is a serrious problem with these guns... remember your loved ones are on the other side of the drywall... Also most people can't shoot magnum handguns well.

A fighting caliber handgun, a reload, and a light (need to be able to identify your targets) are a good place to start. If you can add a pump shotgun you would be even better protected. I would recommend a regular stock and ghost ring sights if available. Benelli makes several pump shotguns like this that are VERY reasonable!

STAY SAFE!

Tom


----------



## bunnybuster

My favorite handgun for hunting big game, would be my Thompson center Contender in .35 rem.
I like my Ruger Vaquero in .45 long colt for making big holes in stuff








One of my carry guns is a Hi-Point C9 (9mm) automatic, the other is a Davis double barrell deringer in .38 SPL.
My most accurate handgun is my old EA bounty hunter in .22 Lr.


----------



## Darb

philly said:


> My carry gun is a .45 colt new agent in a galco strong side holster. It has crimson trace laser grips, very accurate. And compact. For quick trip to 7-11, I carry a beretta .25 auto In the watch pocket of my jeans.
> Philly


Boy, am I glad I didn't try to short you in that ammo swap the other day.


----------



## Jaybird

The best gun for self defense is the one you can shoot the best in adverse conditions.I have 8 handguns and my choice would be my colt 1911 or my 34 glock.


----------



## JoergS

For the untrained shooter, a .22 is simply more effective than a .50 AE, because of the recoil.

Even a child can hit someone multiple times with a .22 pistol, in just a few seconds.

If an untrained shooter fires a .50 AE Desert Eagle (I own one), then one shot is all he will ever get out. If that is a miss (under the stress of an intruder beeing in his house, that is quite likely), then the chance is gone.

A shotgun is truly a great defense weapon (I have a Mossberg 500), but please don't forget the huge, deafening bang it will make in a closed room, without ear protection. You won't be hearing much after just one shot.


----------



## e~shot




----------



## Tom Krein

JoergS said:


> For the untrained shooter, a .22 is simply more effective than a .50 AE, because of the recoil.
> 
> Even a child can hit someone multiple times with a .22 pistol, in just a few seconds.
> 
> If an untrained shooter fires a .50 AE Desert Eagle (I own one), then one shot is all he will ever get out. If that is a miss (under the stress of an intruder beeing in his house, that is quite likely), then the chance is gone.
> 
> A shotgun is truly a great defense weapon (I have a Mossberg 500), but please don't forget the huge, deafening bang it will make in a closed room, without ear protection. You won't be hearing much after just one shot.


While true, I still think that a 9mm pistol or even a .38 revovler is within the abilities of anyone that decides they want to protect themselves with a handgun. Even if you don't shoot it quiet as good as a .22 it will be more effective.

Tom


----------



## JoergS

Tom, I am talking about the untrained people, that have never fired a gun indoors beforehand. The bang and the kick of a 9mm or a snubnose .357 will surprise the shooter to a point where another shot won't happen.

For trained shooters, a 9mm or a 357 is certainly better than a .22.

Still there is the issue of hurting your own family accidentially. Especially in the US where many houses have inner walls that offer no resistance to a powerful bullet.

Jörg


----------



## Tom Krein

Jörg, this is true and I usually start new shooters on a .22lr rifle and then proceed to a .22 lr pistol. But I do not recommend anyone use a gun as a weapon if they are untrained.

If for some reason they cannont handle a fighting caliber handgun a .22lr would beat the heck out of a stick or slingshot!!









Take care.

Tom


----------



## JoergS

Also, there are .22s... and .22s.

I have a GSG 5 with the big magazines:

http://www.gsg-waffen.de/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=46&Itemid=78&lang=en

It's fun to shoot! You can squeeze off lots of HV rounds in no time.

Soon, I will get the 110 round drum magazine...


----------



## Tom Krein

True! I have several Ruger 10-22's and two AR-15's set up as dedicated .22lr's! One is a suppressed SBR!









Tom


----------



## NoSugarRob

w


----------



## Tom Krein

I'm personally not a fan of the Judge. Its BIG and HEAVY! I would personally just rather have a .45 Colt wheel gun.

Tom


----------



## JoergS

Wow! The Judge... Must have it!


----------



## NoSugarRob

.


----------



## Darb

I'd definitely like to see a HD-vid of a pistol-shotgun annihilating a skull encased in ballistics-gel, from point blank.


----------



## NoSugarRob

[


----------



## Darb

In super slowmo !


----------



## NoSugarRob

s


----------



## Chugosh

I read some place that if you have a weapon and don't know how to use it, it belongs to your enemy.

For home defense, nothing is quite like a good old fashioned broadsword, or an axe. Personally a knife might suit better. These weapons have the advantage of almost never accidentlly getting past a wall and doing unintended collateral damage.

I think I might use home defense as an excuse to get a nice rapier. Same advantages as a knife, but with two or three more feet of blade.

If severely pressed, I would admit that a short pump 12 with beanbag rounds would really be the best option.


----------



## Jaybird

Don't take a knife to a gun fight.


----------



## snakeshack

Again:

12 gauge short barrel shotgun (I like the Mossberg because of the ambidextrous safety) with a sure fire flashlight and pressure switch
Bird shot for indoors (thin sheet-rock walls in the US)
Put light in the top center of the chest and pull the trigger
Repeat if necessary.









That's what uninvited guests get in my house if they make it past my dogs. I have many pistols; .22, .22mag, .380, 9mm, .44mag. They don't come out in the house for defense. I do use the .44 and the 12 gauge with buckshot followed up with slugs when I'm camping in Lion or Bear country.


----------



## Tex-Shooter

Hey Jay, a knife at a gun fight is OK as long as you have a good gun also!!! -- Tex-Shooter


----------



## Jaybird

Your right Tex.


----------



## Dan the Slingshot Man

glock 30, benelli shotgun and a ar 15


----------



## Sam

JoergS said:


> For the untrained shooter, a .22 is simply more effective than a .50 AE, because of the recoil.
> 
> Even a child can hit someone multiple times with a .22 pistol, in just a few seconds.
> 
> If an untrained shooter fires a .50 AE Desert Eagle (I own one), then one shot is all he will ever get out. If that is a miss (under the stress of an intruder beeing in his house, that is quite likely), then the chance is gone.
> 
> A shotgun is truly a great defense weapon (I have a Mossberg 500), but please don't forget the huge, deafening bang it will make in a closed room, without ear protection. You won't be hearing much after just one shot.


How on earth did you get a license for your small armoury Joerg? I thought German gun laws were nearly as bad as ours?









I'd love to see you shooting them in a youtube video!


----------



## AJT

Here in NZ self defence is not a legal reason to be in possesion of firearms,knives,slinshots,bows,airguns etc.

A sporting use must be the reason for owning any of them, or they must be used for plinking and target shooting at a club etc.................this is one reason we do not have many laws sorrounding weapons due to the fact that you must have a use for the weapon...and so due to not anyone (aprt form crims) owning guns/weapons for self defence , we do not have that much gun related crim in the country, although it does happen occasionally, but we have ont had many cases of people shooting eachother as a result of defending themselves.

The newest law we have had in over 30 years is that all PCP air rifles must be licensed, otherwise shooting in the country is a safe and enjoyable thing to do.

I am a little concerned about your safety over in the USA, if you are allowed weapons for self defense.........it could get a little rough.

In my personal opinion, get a weapon for a purpose such as hunting / target shooting , and then IF you are in a situation where self defense is the only way in saving your life, then I guess you could use your hunting / target shooting "tool" for self defense in extreme situations...............but to plan ahead in buying a gun specially for defending yourself is pretty much like you are expecting to be attacked or something.

AJ


----------



## jmplsnt

Excellent firearms advice Jeorg, I couldn't agree more with everything you have said. I had a .357 Desert Eagle some years ago and while it was manageable, it was far too big for my little 5' 5" frame-sized hands. I little .22 has no recoil and not too loud at all.....very easy to hit and you could definately load someone up in rapid order.

For my household defense weapons I have a pair of Romanian AK-74's in the 5.45x39 m/m with a pile of ammo and magazines. These are very accurate (much more so than the old school 7.62 AK's, of which I also have one and have zero recoil. The impact of these using the Soviet service ammunition is absollutely devastating.

I can understand where the foreigners would worry about the number of guns in the US but to be honest the only place I feel endangered EVER is when I am passing through a city. I live in a very rural part of the South and to us gun ownership and use is a way of life. No one here just pulls them out and shoots people the way it is done in the cities with a very few exceptions. I can only think of one instance in which someone was shot for no reason in my local area and those two jack-wagons are sitting in jail on a Capitol Murder charge (I knew the killer and the man killed; a real shame) and awaiting their date with a sharp needle and God's Judgement (lethal injection).

Coming from the South I am a big believer in personal firearms ownership, including military-style weapons. I'm not bothering anyone, nor do I intend to take anyone's crap either. People tend to call folks like me "right wingers" and "nuts" and that's fine. I also know my territory was invaded, looted, raped, and burned in the 1860's by a foreign force (Union Army). I'm also a formerly-persecuted/exterminated race (Adais Caddo tribe) and while people say "it could never happen again" I'll counter by saying I personally know a Croat who was in the Yugoslavian Army back when all that craziness was going on. And that was in "civilised" Europe.

The entire land mass of the United States is conquered territory, be it from the wild Indians, Mexicans, the absorbed West Florida Republic, Confederate States of America, and some others I have left out. It happened then and can happen now. I also watched New Orleans devolve into a bunch of true savages after Hurricane Katrina. As much as I love my slingshots I wouldn't be caught dead without at least a few servicable military-style firearms and couldn't call myself the man of my household without being able to defend my family.

Please don't think I'm calling anyone a pansy or putting down your countries when I said that. I do believe places like Canada and New Zealand are a lot more civilised than the US and you can do just fine there without a gun. But when in Rome......


----------



## orcrender

Joerg you really want the Raging Judge. It will take 3 inch .410 shotgun shells and the .454 Casull round. From watching your videos you should handle all the pwoer of that round just fine.


----------



## hawk2009

I had a discussion last week with a collegue at work and his opinion is you are facing death by an intruder if guns are made legal, as the chance of you owning one will be high and he does not want to get shot guns should never be allowed. Me on the other hand think we should have the right and if we did I would purchase one tomorrow who's to say those entering your property just want to rob you.Even now I have weapons in my home and would not hesitate for a second in taking an intruder or intruders out in a heartbeat without warning.In our country your gonna get screwed by the intruder if he attacks you first, or your gonna get screwed by the law if you act, It's a no win situation and as iv'e said before judged by twelve or carried by six my answers easy judged by twelve.Only yesterday did my mum call to say a foreigner stopped in his car on the corner of a junction which she was walking towards and stared at her as she walked past then drove slowly next to her for a few yards without saying anything he also had his window wound down then he drove off just staring at her as he went she's a pensioner for christs sake and she was very scared.Their are alot of weirdo's in our town especially polish and latvian many of them drink drive with no tax or insurance and dont work but thats another story.


----------



## AJT

Jmplsnt

Yeah, I guess the US is a little different ........guns have been part of society for a long while over there , for sporting use,hunting and if the time comes self defence.
Due to guns in the USA being a whole lot more widely availible, crims have much better access to them which would usually mean that a simple burgulary will need much more to put a stop to than if a gun was not involved in the situation.In the US IMO I think it would be better to be prepared than to fall as a victim.

Though enough speculation, and I will now contribute to this thread................hmmmm, what about a .50 air rifle???? They are light weight, not as loud as a .50 firearm, but they have an astonishing amount of stopping power, enough to tackle big game from some distance........that is an exotic though of mine









.


----------



## Bill Hays

Guys let me give you a couple of true personal stories and let's hear your opinion then...

One, my father has been married 3 times... his second wife, Pat (now deceased), lived in town and had a habitual peeping tom (and possible/probable rapist) problem and several break ins over the years... she owned a small .22 revolver and did protect herself twice against criminals... one time shooting an assailant right in the eye. After that incident she didn't have another incident for the remaining 10 or so years of her life. 
His third wife, Jo, lived in Abilene KS.... was an immigrant from England didn't believe in firearm ownership and was also the victim of one of the worst crimes (according to the judge who sentenced the slime) in that town's history. 
One night two guys broke into her house, she was able to get to the phone but didn't have enough time to dial the whole 911. They brutalized and raped her repeatedly, cut her throat with a dull knife and left her for dead. 
Well she lived, pretending to be dead so they left after ransacking her house and checking to see if she was dead by repeatedly dropping a 10 pound dumb bell on her chest... then they continued on a crime spree. A little later, She was able to call the police and identify the guys who ended up going to prison.

In both cases the criminals did not have guns... in Pat's case she was able to fend for herself with a gun... but in Jo's case, if she would have picked up a gun instead of the phone, she very likely would not have had anything bad happen to her.

So, do I believe people should be armed if they want to be, and are of sound mind and good moral character... YES.
I believe in being prepared for the worst and hoping for the best.


----------



## AJT

Bill Hays said:


> Guys let me give you a couple of true personal stories and let's hear your opinion then...
> 
> One, my father has been married 3 times... his second wife, Pat (now deceased), lived in town and had a habitual peeping tom (and possible/probable rapist) problem and several break ins over the years... she owned a small .22 revolver and did protect herself twice against criminals... one time shooting an assailant right in the eye. After that incident she didn't have another incident for the remaining 10 or so years of her life.
> His third wife, Jo, lived in Abilene KS.... was an immigrant from England didn't believe in firearm ownership and was also the victim of one of the worst crimes (according to the judge who sentenced the slime) in that town's history.
> One night two guys broke into her house, she was able to get to the phone but didn't have enough time to dial the whole 911. They brutalized and raped her repeatedly, cut her throat with a dull knife and left her for dead.
> Well she lived, pretending to be dead so they left after ransacking her house and checking to see if she was dead by repeatedly dropping a 10 pound dumb bell on her chest... then they continued on a crime spree. A little later, She was able to call the police and identify the guys who ended up going to prison.
> 
> In both cases the criminals did not have guns... in Pat's case she was able to fend for herself with a gun... but in Jo's case, if she would have picked up a gun instead of the phone, she very likely would not have had anything bad happen to her.
> 
> So, do I believe people should be armed if they want to be, and are of sound mind and good moral character... YES.
> I believe in being prepared for the worst and hoping for the best.


I am sorry about what happened.......

OK, yes I do think having a weapon would be a good thing then, now that you have explained it. It will most likely make you feel much more secure and it will give you a much bigger chance in surviving in extreme situations........

In the US, if you defend yourself against someone with a gun by shooting them, will the gun be taken off you, and then will you have to face a punishment of some sort???

Cause that is the stupid law we have over here..........and that is why many fall as victims (those which live in rough areas of the country are not prepared).


----------



## Bill Hays

Self preservation is a basic human instinct and right... and is written into the constitutions of almost every civilized society.
It's my feeling that if challenged, many of the laws limiting defense of one's self, family and or property written by governing bodies would be over turned by high courts. The problem is most citizens of these "advanced civilized" cultures suffer from a form of apathy that leads to not pursuing their certain "unalienable rights" with enough vigor.

A gun is an equalizer. Having one can allow the weak to defend themselves against the criminally minded strong. The strong don't need a gun to prey on the weak.


----------



## jmplsnt

I could care absolutely less if they confiscated my gun. If I'm still alive, I can worry about getting another one. If I'm dead, my main interests will lie with whether it's streets of gold/crystal sea or being poked in the arse with a pitchfork.

No one said anyone has to become a gun nut/bullet-head, but I feel it is the duty and responsibility of the Man of the House to protect and defend those under his roof from attackers and scum. Worry about the legal repercussions later. I'd much rather have a legal fight than have a hunter find the raped, mutilated, animal-gnawed body of one of my children three months after they were abducted out of my house and I couldn't get the full 911 call in.

Finally, before anyone thinks I'm a hothead I've had a carjacking situation once in Louisiana where I let them go vs. bagging them as is allowed by the enlightened Louisiana anti-carjacking laws. I had a Browning Hi-Power (used, but didn't fire it) and a Yugoslavian underfolder AK-47 (remained stowed, though within reach) and could have gotten at least a few of the eight surrounding me. I let them go as I had 1)punked them out and made them run, 2)didn't need or want a costly legal battle, 3)hope they learned their lesson and turned their lives around, and 4)was really worried a pass-through by the 9mm would hit some innocent bystander who would of course be on their way to Church, funeral, work, fishing, or be mother of little children. I let them slide and think I did the right thing, though it was a total and complete victory on my part.

ps I don't run the roads with an AK; I had bought it a few days prior and was attending an out-of-state navigation course so I couldn't drop it off at the house.


----------



## Jaybird

I think every law abidding citizen should have a gun and know how to use it for defense of home and constitution if need be.I equate a gun to the spare tire in your car.You carry it with you all the time and hope you never have to use it,but when you need it you need it bad.Better to have it and not need it than need it and don't have it.


----------



## BaneofSmallGame

Very well said Jay......amen. You seem to be a man of relatively few words, but when you talk (post) people listen.

I'd have to agree, my family is fortunate enough to legally own a significant amount of firearms. I have to say we enjoy them for sport, but also enjoy their company. I can't say I live in a bad neighborhood at all, but honestly you never know, but we have them, and we probably (hopefully) will never have to use them for that purpose.....

Take Care and be safe everyone
- John


----------



## Sam

Bill Hays said:


> Guys let me give you a couple of true personal stories and let's hear your opinion then...
> 
> One, my father has been married 3 times... his second wife, Pat (now deceased), lived in town and had a habitual peeping tom (and possible/probable rapist) problem and several break ins over the years... she owned a small .22 revolver and did protect herself twice against criminals... one time shooting an assailant right in the eye. After that incident she didn't have another incident for the remaining 10 or so years of her life.
> His third wife, Jo, lived in Abilene KS.... was an immigrant from England didn't believe in firearm ownership and was also the victim of one of the worst crimes (according to the judge who sentenced the slime) in that town's history.
> One night two guys broke into her house, she was able to get to the phone but didn't have enough time to dial the whole 911. They brutalized and raped her repeatedly, cut her throat with a dull knife and left her for dead.
> Well she lived, pretending to be dead so they left after ransacking her house and checking to see if she was dead by repeatedly dropping a 10 pound dumb bell on her chest... then they continued on a crime spree. A little later, She was able to call the police and identify the guys who ended up going to prison.
> 
> In both cases the criminals did not have guns... in Pat's case she was able to fend for herself with a gun... but in Jo's case, if she would have picked up a gun instead of the phone, she very likely would not have had anything bad happen to her.
> 
> So, do I believe people should be armed if they want to be, and are of sound mind and good moral character... YES.
> I believe in being prepared for the worst and hoping for the best.


It hurts me that it takes horrendous stories like this to make a point.

Here we've had our rights regarding the ownership and use of firearms stripped to a ridiculous degree and guess what... *gun related crime has risen exponentially*.

The most frustrating thing is that every time these laws are brought in the statistics at the time all point to the inescapable fact which is: that only a tiny, tiny amount of gun crime is committed with legally owned firearms the overwhelming majority, by far, is with illicitly owned pistols (pistols have been illegal for some time now.) The majority of shootings where I live occur between young males over trivial feuds and the Met's (now they really like shooting people, but that's another story entirely,) statistics clearly point to this!

My father is a freelance journalist and he's always doing stories of shootings only today he went to interview the elderly parents of two young Jamaican brothers who were both shot in a club by a man who was disgruntled because he was refused entry - due to the shoes he was wearing - the younger brother died at the scene, the elder amazing survived five bullets to the head, but will spend the rest of his life in a vegetative state...

In short I think Ronald Reagan was right when he said: 

*"If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."*


----------



## Rxslice

Bill Hays said:


> Guys let me give you a couple of true personal stories and let's hear your opinion then...
> 
> In both cases the criminals did not have guns... in Pat's case she was able to fend for herself with a gun... but in Jo's case, if she would have picked up a gun instead of the phone, she very likely would not have had anything bad happen to her.
> 
> So, do I believe people should be armed if they want to be, and are of sound mind and good moral character... YES.
> I believe in being prepared for the worst and hoping for the best.


 I could'nt agree more,Bill. I believe that criminals and scumbags would be ALOT more reluctant to commit this type of crime if more people begin owning guns to protect their property and themselves. Who would want to break into a home if you knew that on the other side of that door was an armed person ready to sling some lead your way (if the situation calls). Why not have the peace of mind?


----------



## dhansen

A semi-auto shotgun would be much better than a pump. I have a 12 ga. semi-auto shotgun, and it is quite awesome.


----------



## jskeen

I tend to agree, I prefer a full stock pump shotgun for home defense, albeit with a short barrel. My personal by the bed gun is a 1943 Ithaca mod 37 with a 20 inch open choke barrel with a bayonet lug. Since I don't hunt with it, It's not plugged and holds the original 6 rounds, 3 birdshot, then 3 OO buckshot (in case somebody tries to run). For an open carry gun I still prefer the 70 series gold cup I used in the AF. For concealed, I have a modified charter arms bulldog 44 special, with the barrel bobbed to 2 inches and magnaported with no front blade and the rear sights and hammer spur removed. I made a set of custom grips for it out of the OD green pooky they used to seal the gaskets on the A-10 canopy's, that fits my hand to the Micrometer. I handload my own for the 44 but use factory glasers in the 45.

Guess I'm just an old school kinda guy.


----------



## bootneck

For me i would have a sig 226 and an HK MP5 because thats what im trained on (well an SA80, GPMG or MINIMI wouldnt be great) and with those choices id be happyer to take a shot if someone was holding my wife or stepson than i would with anything else, (wouldnt want to free my wife from a hostage situation with a shotgun lol), I'd also like some nice loud pyro's and the rest of my troop with me but thats not possible :-(
Over penitration wouldnt be such a worry in my house (none of that plyboard stuff) and the kid and wife would know to hit the deck if i went wondering round my house looking for a robber.

But as sam said in this country thats not going to happen, although if you know a bit about the law it's not quite as restrictive as it first seems (or as bad as the papers make out).


----------

