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The effects of uneven band length


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#21 trobbie66

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 04:07 AM

Love all the info you are getting from your rig. Looking forward to more vids!

#22 Dayhiker

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 06:00 AM

Charles, I just had the experience of messing up on cutting myself a bandset from TBG.  Simple straight 3/4-inch set.  On one of the bands, the rubber sneaked under the straightedge as I rolled by with the rotary cutter and made for a band that was fat then skinny for most of its length and then fat again at the end.  I was really noticeable.

 

Thinking of your experiments and Bill Hays' comments about the shooter being able to compensate for differences in band strength, I decided to do my own experiential testing (i.e. using only my own body's feedback system as the test instrument).  After 2 or 3 shots going to one side, I compensated at first by just adjusting my aim. But soon I started hitting where I aimed instead of hitting the target.

 

Hmmm... So I carefully aimed right at the target again (I aim only by concentrating on the target, focusing my eyes and letting my body adjust to the information.) and started hitting at my usual rate of accuracy.  But I paid attention to what was going on with my body and it seems that as I concentrated on focus, I was feeling the balance between the bands in a very delicate way -- far more subtlety than I could do consciously, but detectable if I really paid attention to my hand.  After a while I was shooting this set of bands as well as any other.

 

I feel this is important in that it goes to show that good shooting technique can overcome pretty glaring imperfections in rubber.  It seems to me that if I were to try and shoot like a machine as some shooters do, I would have stayed aiming to one side and had success. This shows the difference in shooting technique.  Whereas I don't use any part of the fork to aim, and just go by feel in gripping my forks, my muscles do the compensating, kind of automatically, but it does require some deliberate focus.

 

I don't know if any of this matters.  :iono: 



#23 Charles

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:22 AM

Hey there DH. Thanks for this input. I think that after a bit of experience, we all learn to subtly compensate in the way you describe ... but as you say, it does require focus. I reported that in my experience, I must recalibrate my aiming technique every time I change the bands, and I am sure many find the same.

 

My goal in this little test was to see if the unevenness in the bands would result in a fork hit, and it seems that was not the case. I was not attempting to assess accuracy, although it is fairly clear from my limited test that the deflection of the ammo was quite consistent ... meaning that one can compensate for the deflection and still be accurate.

 

Cheers ..... Charles



#24 trobbie66

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 01:01 PM

Hey there DH. Thanks for this input. I think that after a bit of experience, we all learn to subtly compensate in the way you describe ... but as you say, it does require focus. I reported that in my experience, I must recalibrate my aiming technique every time I change the bands, and I am sure many find the same.
 
My goal in this little test was to see if the unevenness in the bands would result in a fork hit, and it seems that was not the case. I was not attempting to assess accuracy, although it is fairly clear from my limited test that the deflection of the ammo was quite consistent ... meaning that one can compensate for the deflection and still be accurate.
 
Cheers ..... Charles Hey Charles I thnik that it doesn't matter how y You are giving a definitive measure hold the catty. intuitive response to your draw cant be measured.



#25 Dayhiker

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 02:53 PM

I think that if you keep watching dgui's videos it starts to seem as if only the shooter matters.  No ammo, pouch, fork (or lack thereof) seems to change the situation.  If you really learn to shoot, you can shoot with anything.  Even just rubber. No fork. No pouch. Darrell's done it all.



#26 Charles

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 04:02 PM

Far be it from me to suggest that one cannot learn to shoot with a vast array of equipment, good, bad, and mediocre. All I was trying to do is to isolate various factors that folks seem to think result in fork hits. Uneven band length and uneven band width do not.

 

Cheers .... Charles



#27 Dayhiker

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 05:31 PM

Of course!  I like what you're doing, Charles.  Don't mean to rain on your parade.  Most of us can't do what Darrell does so we need all the knowledge we can get. 



#28 Charles

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 05:43 PM

No offense taken at all. Just some folks seem to think I was trying to do something that I did not intend.

 

Cheers .... Charles



#29 Dayhiker

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:04 AM

Hey Charles, this may be silly, but in light of my post (above) about one band being thinner than the other, I wonder, if you were to equalize for total surface area, if the effect of a thinner band would differ from the effect of a shorter band? Probably not, but who knows?  :iono:



#30 Charles

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:31 AM

Well, a narrower band does not have as much deflection as a shorter band, and I believe the reasons are as described here:

 

http://slingshotforu...width/?p=311120

 

I suspect that the thinner band would act much like the narrower band, and the deflection would not be as much as you would get with a shorter band.

 

One might test it by beginning with two doubled bands and making test shots. Then remove one band from one side and make experimental shots. But that would not really capture the case you are asking about ... because the surface areas would not be the same. However, I see no other viable way to test it ... splitting a band along its thinnest dimension is not something I am capable of!!!

 

Cheers ...... Charles



#31 Dayhiker

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:57 AM

Ah!  I meant a narrower band, not a thinner one.  If one band in a set is narrower than the other but has the same surface area as if it were one inch shorter, would the result be the same as in your experiment?



#32 Charles

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 05:45 PM

I did do the narrower band test:

 

http://slingshotforu...ven-band-width/

 

In that test, I cut 1/8 of an inch off of a band that was originally 5/8 of an inch wide. Let me ignore the thickness of the bands here.

 

1. surface area of narrow band = 4/8 x 7 x 2 = 7 square inches

 

2. surface area of standard band = 5/8 x 7 x 2 = 8.75 square inches

 

3. surface area of short band = 5/8 x 6 x 2 = 7.5 square inches

 

When 1 was paired with 2, the ammo was deflected a bit, but only a bit, toward the side of 2, the band with larger surface area.

 

When 3 was paired with 2, the ammo was deflected a lot, toward the side of 3, the band with less surface area. For 1 and 2 to have the same surface area, I would have had to trim 1/28 of an inch less. When paired with 2, the deflection would have been even less than I found.

 

In short, the general conclusion would be the same: differences in the width of the bands produce much smaller deviations in the path of the ammo than do differences in the length of the bands.

 

I hope this is what you are asking. If I have not understood your question, just poke me again. :stickpoke:  :thumbsup:

 

Cheers .... Charles



#33 Dayhiker

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 08:17 AM

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No, that's it!  Thanks, Charles.  It's funny, that.  But it's what I suspected from experience. Keep going, you mad scientist! 



#34 hickymick

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 06:53 PM

I Have not been on here for a while .. How I have mist the common sense that these blokes on here give out .. strange the self proclaimed experts from uk dont  come on here and read all this free info ... I am sick to death of reading how great this Rolyan tubing is in uk, sales name Dub Dub .. :what:  while I understand this thread is about size of elastics to % of fork hits and other theories .. I would like to know what your views are on this stuff Rolyan As I tried the orange I thought it was  :stupidcomp:  faulty snapping after maybe 20 shots .I wonder If any of you on here could work out they strengths and weaknesses of this against other elastics..  Loved the tests and info you give out /Charles,, I still cant work out out to do a catty video once I do I am sure I will win me some comps on here :violin:



#35 Charles

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 07:01 PM

I Have not been on here for a while .. How I have mist the common sense that these blokes on here give out .. strange the self proclaimed experts from uk dont  come on here and read all this free info ... I am sick to death of reading how great this Rolyan tubing is in uk, sales name Dub Dub .. :what:  while I understand this thread is about size of elastics to % of fork hits and other theories .. I would like to know what your views are on this stuff Rolyan As I tried the orange I thought it was  :stupidcomp:  faulty snapping after maybe 20 shots .I wonder If any of you on here could work out they strengths and weaknesses of this against other elastics..  Loved the tests and info you give out /Charles,, I still cant work out out to do a catty video once I do I am sure I will win me some comps on here :violin:

 

Sorry ... I have no information about Dub Dub tubing. I do not have any, and so cannot test it.

 

Cheers ..... Charles



#36 All Buns Glazing

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 07:40 PM

Hi Hicky Mick, 

 

Do a search for that information, and if you can't find what you're looking for, ask the question here: http://slingshotforu...ands-and-tubes/

 

My search found this: http://slingshotforu...iled/?hl=dubdub

 

 

 

I Have not been on here for a while .. How I have mist the common sense that these blokes on here give out .. strange the self proclaimed experts from uk dont  come on here and read all this free info ... I am sick to death of reading how great this Rolyan tubing is in uk, sales name Dub Dub .. :what:  while I understand this thread is about size of elastics to % of fork hits and other theories .. I would like to know what your views are on this stuff Rolyan As I tried the orange I thought it was  :stupidcomp:  faulty snapping after maybe 20 shots .I wonder If any of you on here could work out they strengths and weaknesses of this against other elastics..  Loved the tests and info you give out /Charles,, I still cant work out out to do a catty video once I do I am sure I will win me some comps on here :violin:


Edited by All Buns Glazing, 13 July 2013 - 07:41 PM.


#37 mopper

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 12:37 PM

My own experience confirms those findings ... I actually shot a slingshot with such uneven bands because I had forgotten that I had already shortened one of the bands before attaching it. I thought what the heck I am not gong to do it all over again and shot it - no fork hits.

 

On the other hand I have just tried out a new release technique (full butterfly with the thumb  and forefinger holding the pouch "sideways" at a 90┬░angle, not letting the pouch slip out "forward" towards the fingertips. It looks similar to what Bill Hays shows in his video on why he gets more speed out of his bands than other people) and I had several times more fork hits this afternoon than in all the tens of thousands of shots that I fired before changing my technique combined.

 

The more I shoot the more I am convinced that as long fork width and ammo size are within reasonable limits it is faulty release technique that is responsible for at least the vast majority of fork hits, if not all of them.



#38 Charles

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 02:02 PM

My own experience confirms those findings ... I actually shot a slingshot with such uneven bands because I had forgotten that I had already shortened one of the bands before attaching it. I thought what the heck I am not gong to do it all over again and shot it - no fork hits.

 

On the other hand I have just tried out a new release technique (full butterfly with the thumb  and forefinger holding the pouch "sideways" at a 90┬░angle, not letting the pouch slip out "forward" towards the fingertips. It looks similar to what Bill Hays shows in his video on why he gets more speed out of his bands than other people) and I had several times more fork hits this afternoon than in all the tens of thousands of shots that I fired before changing my technique combined.

 

The more I shoot the more I am convinced that as long fork width and ammo size are within reasonable limits it is faulty release technique that is responsible for at least the vast majority of fork hits, if not all of them.

 

Thanks for you first hand report!

 

Cheers .... Charles



#39 KyleReynolds

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:02 PM

Wow nice setup! I'm surprised there wasn't anymore deviation in between the shots. I would recommend doing another test, this time testing the affects of one of the bands being stronger than the other. Perhaps double bands on one side and a single band on the other?



#40 Charles

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 10:29 PM

Wow nice setup! I'm surprised there wasn't anymore deviation in between the shots. I would recommend doing another test, this time testing the affects of one of the bands being stronger than the other. Perhaps double bands on one side and a single band on the other?

 

That is effectively what happens when one band is shorter than another ... the shorter band turns out to be stronger than the other.

 

In this test, I was examining the effect of uneven band length on the possibility of fork hits. Of course if I doubled one band, there would be even greater deviation in the path of the ammo ... and perhaps one might be able to produce enough deviation to get a fork hit. But I do not really see the practical application of such a test. I doubt than anyone would mistakenly put two bands on one side but only one band on the other side.

 

I have also tested what happens when bands are uneven in width.

 

http://slingshotforu...ven-band-width/

 

Again, that makes one band stronger than the other. But the deviation in the path of the ammo is not nearly as great as when one band is shorter than the other.

 

Cheers ......Charles






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