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OTT vs. TTF


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#1 Knotty

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:50 PM


Not asking which is best, just what are the advantages and disadvantages of each?

If it helps, I'm shooting a Bill Hays Hathcock Sniper with flat bands, sideways/gangster.

Thanks in advance.

#2 LVO

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:15 PM

Personally I get handslaps on occasion with OTT. I'm more relaxed and therefore more accurate when shooting TTF. No handslaps regardless of how mismatched ammo and my bands are. I like the versatility of that frame!

#3 Charles

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:30 PM

Do not confuse the orientation of the bands at draw with the path of the ammo at release. Unless you are shooting with a strong flip action or using the speed bump effect, your ammo will always pass between your fork tips (unless you unfortunately get a fork hit!).

 

Over the top band arrangements are more prone to hand slap. Also, OTT arrangements are often noisy, as part of the band contacts the fork tips during contraction. That can also cause abrasion, reducing the life of your bands. However, it is possible to use a much higher grip with OTT, and that greatly reduces the strain on the wrist. On most slingshots, an OTT band arrangement is about the easiest attachment method.

 

For a Through The Fork band arrangement, the bands at draw pass to the inside of the forks. Through the fork band arrangements are generally not suited for narrow forks. On narrow forks, the bands tend to bunch up in the gap between forks and can often foul the shot. And unless the fork is specially constructed, TTF band arrangements are not that easy to arrange. Also, TTF band arrangements require a lower hold on the frame, which can increase tension on the wrist. However, with wide forks TTF band arrangements are generally very quiet, as the bands tend not to have contact with the frame; and that also means that all things considered, your bands will last a little longer.

 

If you are using the Sniper, you would probably do well with an Outside The Forks band arrangement ... the bands pass to the outside of the forks at draw. Usually OTF arrangements tend to produce more torque on the wrist because of the necessity of a lower hold on the frame. And the bands will contact the frame tips, producing noise and some band abrasion. However, many folks who are side holders and aimers find they are most accurate with an OTF arrangement.

 

Each has its benefits and its drawbacks. The thing to do is to experiment to find what is best for you.

 

Cheers .... Charles



#4 treefork

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:37 PM

I recommend shooting the Hathcock Sniper TTF. That groove on the side the band lays in forms a V and acts as a  front sight. Very accurate once you get the feel.Make sure you don't allow the HTS to cant in your hand or your throw your shots low. With TTF the forks need to be wide enough.When shooting OTT  a twist and a tweak will enable the ammo to clear the forks. 



#5 DaveSteve

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:53 PM

Personally I get handslaps on occasion with OTT. I'm more relaxed and therefore more accurate when shooting TTF. No handslaps regardless of how mismatched ammo and my bands are. I like the versatility of that frame!

That's the reason for me too, to prefer TTF.



#6 Knotty

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:31 AM

Great information. Thanks guys.

 

I didn't even think to differentiate between TTF and OTF.



#7 Arturito

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:18 PM

I've shoot both and as regarding accuracy I've didn't find a big difference once you get used ... I've also received some hand slaps with TTF, but I must admit that OTT gives them more frequent, OTT narrower forks also has some advantages pointed by Charles ... the ss don't make the shooter ... only practice and constancy ...



#8 kuime

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 03:39 PM

I will stick to TTF.  Never tried OTT. I m using a polymer seal sniper BTW. :king:



#9 Caribbean_Comanche

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:05 PM

I will stick to TTF.  Never tried OTT. I m using a polymer seal sniper BTW. :king:

If you ever get the chance, give OTF a try too. I prefer TTF, but like shooting either way at times. Happy shooting.



#10 Rayshot

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:58 PM

I shoot TTF with a catty that has a gap of   1  9/16 inches  between the forks.  I estimate that  the pouch is only about  a 1/2 inch from my hand as it zips past.  I shot with this size catty for the badge comp.  There is a pic below that gives a very good idea of what I like to shoot.

 

I find I am more consistently accurate TTF.

 

CIMG0539.JPG

 

CIMG0541.JPG

 

 

 

 



#11 Charles

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:38 PM

I shoot TTF with a catty that has a gap of   1  9/16 inches  between the forks.  I estimate that  the pouch is only about  a 1/2 inch from my hand as it zips past.  I shot with this size catty for the badge comp.  There is a pic below that gives a very good idea of what I like to shoot.

 

I find I am more consistently accurate TTF.

 

attachicon.gifCIMG0539.JPG

 

attachicon.gifCIMG0541.JPG

 

Yep ... in that photo, note that your bands at draw pass to the Outside of The Forks, for a classic OTF. Just as you report, many folks report that they are more accurate with that band arrangement.

 

Cheers ..... Charles



#12 Rayshot

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:52 PM

I shoot TTF with a catty that has a gap of   1  9/16 inches  between the forks.  I estimate that  the pouch is only about  a 1/2 inch from my hand as it zips past.  I shot with this size catty for the badge comp.  There is a pic below that gives a very good idea of what I like to shoot.

 

I find I am more consistently accurate TTF.

 

attachicon.gifCIMG0539.JPG

 

attachicon.gifCIMG0541.JPG

 

Yep ... in that photo, note that your bands at draw pass to the Outside of The Forks, for a classic OTF. Just as you report, many folks report that they are more accurate with that band arrangement.

 

Cheers ..... Charles

I agree I technically have an OTF (outside the fork) set up but I think many are using the acronym TTF as a set up in general whether attached to the outside or inside, (perhaps other set ups too?).    IE, the ammo goes between the forks more than a set up OTT.

 

Charles I am not trying to wrangle about things.  I don't think you are either.  Just saying this to be sure.  Semantics huh? Blah!



#13 Charles

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:03 PM

I shoot TTF with a catty that has a gap of   1  9/16 inches  between the forks.  I estimate that  the pouch is only about  a 1/2 inch from my hand as it zips past.  I shot with this size catty for the badge comp.  There is a pic below that gives a very good idea of what I like to shoot.

 

I find I am more consistently accurate TTF.

 

attachicon.gifCIMG0539.JPG

 

attachicon.gifCIMG0541.JPG

 

Yep ... in that photo, note that your bands at draw pass to the Outside of The Forks, for a classic OTF. Just as you report, many folks report that they are more accurate with that band arrangement.

 

Cheers ..... Charles

I agree I technically have an OTF (outside the fork) set up but I think many are using the acronym TTF as a set up in general whether attached to the outside or inside, (perhaps other set ups too?).    IE, the ammo goes between the forks more than a set up OTT.

 

Charles I am not trying to wrangle about things.  I don't think you are either.  Just saying this to be sure.  Semantics huh? Blah!

 

I agree, Ray. It is just a question of words, and many folks use TTF rather loosely, as you suggest. But it is good to have distinct ways of referring to the various band arrangements, as each has its own peculiarities, problems, and benefits. It is easier to help someone with problems if we have a way of communicating clearly about their band arrangement.

 

And as I have said before, if you flip strongly or use the speed bump effect, your ammo will fly above the forks, regardless of the band attachment. On the other hand, even with the classic OTT band arrangement, unless your flip or use the speed bump effect, your ammo is going to pass between the fork tips.

 

If the only reason for calling an arrangement TTF is that the ammo passes through the forks, then that does not distinguish any one band arrangement from any other. Every band arrangement is "through the forks" in that sense.

 

For just a few examples: We want newbies to understand that during bare back shooting, just because the bands pass over their knuckles at draw (OTT band arrangement), their ammo is going to smack heck out of their hand unless they flip or use the speed bump effect. We want newbies to understand that if their bands pass through the forks (TTF), they better use a wide fork separation or they are going to foul the shot. And we want newbies to understand that for a slingshot set up for it, an OTF arrangement is most accurate for a lot of folks.

 

No sermon intended here, and no criticism of anyone intended ... Just trying to explain why I think it is important.

 

Cheers ..... Charles



#14 GHT

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:35 PM

Charles, i understand what it is to flip, but have not heard of the speed bump effect, can you explain further please, thanks , Tom.

#15 Adirondack Kyle

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:13 PM

My Bill Hayes hts was banded ttf, and i know that's how he sends them unless you ask for something diff,
I also know that's how he shoots ,and his aiming method is intended to be shot with the bands being pulled around the outside of the forks, that's what I call ttf, because that's how i learned to first shoot. And from my exp, the bands slap much louder than any other method, its also my most accurate way to shoot. And no band slaps. I was thinking the chrono app would also pick this up better. I never shot with the bands being pulled through the forks but ill take Charles word for it that it's quieter.
i would think that pulling the bands through the inside of the fork, it would make using the Hayes aiming method more difficult,
Because its easier to aim with the top fork line, or you can draw a line on the band where it lines up with the grove as bill suggest.

#16 Charles

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:54 PM

My Bill Hayes hts was banded ttf, and i know that's how he sends them unless you ask for something diff,
I also know that's how he shoots ,and his aiming method is intended to be shot with the bands being pulled around the outside of the forks, that's what I call ttf, because that's how i learned to first shoot. And from my exp, the bands slap much louder than any other method, its also my most accurate way to shoot. And no band slaps. I was thinking the chrono app would also pick this up better. I never shot with the bands being pulled through the forks but ill take Charles word for it that it's quieter.
i would think that pulling the bands through the inside of the fork, it would make using the Hayes aiming method more difficult,
Because its easier to aim with the top fork line, or you can draw a line on the band where it lines up with the grove as bill suggest.

 

I understand that there is some confusion over the phrases "through the forks" or TTF and "outside the forks" or OTF. I would suggest that being a bit more careful about these terms will aid newbies, and some oldies as well. I will repeat ... unless you are flip shooting or using the speed bump effect, your ammo always passes "through the forks",i.e. between the fork tips, no matter how your bands are arranged. And if you shoot with a strong flip or use the speed bump effect, your ammo will pass over the forks, no matter how your bands are arranged.

 

As you note, having the bands Outside The Forks at draw is more accurate for many shooters. There is technically no reason why OTF should be more accurate than TTF. You can still use various points on the frame as you "front sight", just as suggested by Bill Hays (and others) ... one particularly useful method is to file a small groove on the outside of the frame at the midpoint of where the bands would stretch with an OTF band arrangement and use that as your "front sight". If you run the bands through the forks, you may notice an elevation difference in your point of impact, or you may not; after all, the midpoint of the pull of the bands is unaffected. If you feel an elevation correction is needed, you can simply adjust the level of your draw hand up or down a bit while keeping your aiming point the same (analogous to adjusting the rear sight on a rifle), or alternatively adjust your aiming point up or down .... just as you would do with a rifle.

 

Hope this helps. :)

 

Cheers .... Charles



#17 Charles

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:04 PM

Charles, i understand what it is to flip, but have not heard of the speed bump effect, can you explain further please, thanks , Tom.

 

Have a look at this video:

 

 

And at this one:

 

 

And here is a written explanation I have given before:

 

I assume you are shooting with your forks facing up toward the sky. Use your thumb of your pouch hand to clamp the pouch over the second knuckle of your index finger. Twist your pouch hand so the thumb is facing up. Draw back and cock your drawing wrist up about 45 degrees ... angle is not crucial ... just cock it up a bit. To release, lift only your thumb ... keep your index finger steady. The bands will draw your pouch and ammo up and over your index finger. The speed bump of your index finger will pop the pouch and ammo up sufficiently to clear your fork. This is the same thing that happens to your vehicle when you drive over a speed bump in the road ... your vehicle bounces upward.

 

Cheers .... Charles



#18 Adirondack Kyle

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:19 PM

Ya. I was just referring to this aiming technique as " Hayes" just for reference, im sure people have been doing it a while, thanks for the breakdown

#19 GHT

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 03:21 PM

thanks for the reply Charles, very helpful.

#20 slingshotblues

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:31 AM

hi guys , got this sweet seal sniper , from bill hays the coolest slingshot ever , shot straight as an arrow first 50 shots , now i keep hitting the lower fork, im very frustrated with the problem , can anyone help me please ive tryed everything , i dont like shooting ott because of hand slap , what am i  doing wrong






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