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Moralities of copying

Posted by ZDP-189 , in Personal 07 July 2010 · 236 views

We've philosophised a lot about this the morals of this topic in the knife-making community. Just like slingshots, it's a basic technology and most designs have been made similarly by someone at some time in the past and similarly, people are trying to make a a recognisable product and to make some income from it.

There's a whole spectrum of morality going on.

My view is:

I like to come up with new designs of my own. I'm sure to be influenced by past designs and current trends, but I acknowledge them where I can.
Sometimes I'd like to try out a design I've seen. I generally prefer to obtain it from the maker. If that's not practical, I'll ask permission. If it's a commercial design, I'll offer to pay for permission.
If a design is so commonly used that no-one remembers who came up with it, then it's impractical to acknowledge the source or offer payment, unless he shows up and demonstrates ownership.
It is morally wrong to knowingly copy a product without permission for personal gain. It is doubly wrong to pass it off as your original design, worse to pirate is as a forgery and even worse still to knowingly assert ownership of someone else's design.
Some of these things can happen by accident, but the subsequent inventor must set things straight if he discovers he's reinvented the wheel.

As an example, I wished to try out a copy of pallan65's PS-1 in a plastic. I asked Perry if he would accept a commission but he wished to stick to wood. I asked for permission to make one myself and negotiated and paid a royalty for making and exhibiting it in public. I have always been careful to credit him with his unique and recognisable design.

Recently, I gave a slingshot to a member here and he asked me if he could get it recast in aluminium. Unfortunately, I am not ready to grant permission for such things. I spend a lot of time researching and designing my slingshots and I consider that I own my designs and I'd prefer not to have any of my slingshots recast or otherwise copied by anyone. My gift or sale of a slingshot is not intended as a template or a permission to reproduce them, except by explicit written permission.

I have occasionally published plans, photos and video of my slingshots that are capable of being used to reproduce them. I wish to make it clear that if designs are copied for personal use, I wish to be credited for the design if they are shown or published and that the maker may not give permission for these designs or their design elements to be reproduced, or slingshots made from these designs or element to be sold. Furthermore, I do not represent the design as fit or safe for any particular purpose and accept no responsibility for their use, misuse or any damages arising there from. The maker of a slingshot from my design or influenced by my design is entirely responsible for its fitness, safety and use.

jephroux
Jul 07 2010 10:25 AM

dan
no worries hope i did not offend or upsrt you
i just read your blog
i feel bad that i may have taxed you enough to
creat a blog over copying issues..
as i said i am very thankful an would
in no way wont to step on your toes
an cause you any grief an hope you dont think ill of me
dan i have the up most RESPECT an APPRECIATION for
the gift that you have given me an in no way would wont
to cause you any worries over it.. it is an will be closely
guarded
as befor thanking you is not stong enough
an i know the work an thought thant went in to
such a gift an will not be taken lightly on my part
with many thanks an reguards
jeff hernandez mob,al

dgui
Jul 08 2010 12:17 PM

Well I got some measurements off of Torstens Geko he was using but I never thought to ask permission to duplicate any part of the Geko. I will repent. There shall be no more copies.

Hogancastings
Jul 09 2010 02:59 AM

Hi from Peter at Hogancastings uk. may i first say that i agree with your points fully ZDP189 . It is not our intention to copey any current manufactured slingshots with out first getting the permission of the inventor .We would much prefer to work with our colleges in the slingshot world .How ever one of the big problems i see is how do we stop an individual from byeing a slingshot and then having it copeyd .The main vendors products are commen place so we can identify them
But the smaller maker is were the problem lies i one off productoin i think if a slingshot is made as a gift then the moralities lie with the recipetent?.We were a party to a product being copeyd in this way last month some time! and wish to apolagise un reservedley to all the partys involved.

JoergS
Jul 09 2010 07:21 AM

Well founded philosophy!

I, for one, give my designs into the public domain, but only for non-commercial use. Fellow hobby slingshot fanatics may take any idea or design I ever published and copy it, change it, do with it whatever they please.

Of course I do not take over responsibilities at all.

ZDP-189
Aug 08 2010 01:14 PM

When you see my bandsets, you'll understand. They are like nothing I've seen. Thankfully, they're hard to copy as I made them fairly complex and they involve hard to get materials.

But for the record, the bandsets I was thinking of were Hunter Bands which are as much a part of fish's product identity and function as the shape of pallan65's frame, both of which are now widely copied.

ZDP-189
Aug 17 2010 01:05 AM

Implications of failure to copy accurately

When I copied A+ Slingshots PS-1 under licence, I thought I did a pretty good job of reproducing the pictures to scale. I was shocked when I actually bought my first PS-1 later and held it in my hands. It was nothing like the slingshot I had made and was in fact superior. I had missed a lot of the style and craftsmanship that went into it. I failed to reproduce the way the bevels meet the flat plane, the way that the scalloped bevels cut rather than being rounded over, the style of the lanyard hole, the light weight, wood grain, the feel of the fork tips, the natural rubber bands and even the size was significantly different. Basically I, made a good slingshot, but one that felt and shot entirely differently to Perry's. I've seen many of the same omissions in mr.joel's reproduction of the PS-1 or PS-2.

Likewise, Dayhiker's reproduction of Joe T's lightening bolt lacks the sharp angles and straight lines of the original, the plywood and the marvellous shock value of seeing an unexpected but functional new design. His re-drawing of my Scallops design missed the deep and curved V plunge, the wire-like lanyard hole, the materials selection, the very scallops that gives the design its name and every trace of the flow of the design - essentially every design element and principle that separated it from a generic Y-fork.

If you're going to reproduce someone's art, please do so accurately. If you wish to reproduce Vincent van Gogh's Sunflowers, don't omit the texture and the anger in the strokes. Not that my work is art, but if you can't copy properly, you're best off making original designs that have no frame of reference or standard to be compared against.

Unspoken dangers of using unreleased designs

Imagine a manufacturer of a safety harness buckle getting a letter from a lawyer saying "My client saw your design on the internet. He made a copy out of a carved raw potato and he was injured. Your design was flawed." Who's fault is that? One of the main reasons I don't release my designs is that they are not completely safe. No slingshot is completely safe, especially an unlicensed reproduction. When I give or trade a slingshot, or publish a design, I am explicit that it's not known to be 100% safe and there's an element of risk that is higher with a store-bought slingshot and that I disclaim all liability.

My designs are even more dangerous than others to copy. Some makers, like Tex-Shooter design their slingshots around the weakness of soft wooden boards. I generally don't. I design my slingshots to fly close to the edge of the envelope, utilising less materials, following tight curves and having narrow sections. There are stress risers and weak points. I get away with this because I use high quality, high tensile strength plastics like G10 and micarta and metals like steel and aluminium. I test materials with impact tests and strain tests and I test my slingshots with bands and with a postal scale. I have a veritable bin full of materials and frames that I have rejected. If someone were to reproduce one of my designs in wood or with design inaccuracies, then there is more than a good chance that it will come apart under load and end up decorating someone's eye socket. In the case of my Scallops, I even warned that it was not suitable for a wooden board cut, but people insisted on going ahead.

If someone were to reproduce my die-cut bandsets by hand, yes, there is a chance it would work. I've made maybe 3 bandsets of this pattern that way. However, I have had over a dozen that failed to meet my quality standards in that time and ended up in the bin or re-cut as band tie strips. As someone who wants to trade his work and maybe sell designs later, I'm not going to go through every detail of how to make my designs, mention every trouble shooting solution or provide sources to my hard to find materials and parts. The new bandsets have duty cycles in the thousands of shots, whereas a reproduction may only last a few hundred and/or fail without warning. Mine are die cut and are precisely balanced, but reproductions may not be and you may get misses or fork hits. I didn't get into die cutting out of laziness, I was forced into it by this design. If you are going to hand cut your bands, you are better off sticking to straight tapers without step changes in angle, curves or angular side projections that involve inside angles at stressed locations on the band.

Side effect: less information released

Since we've had a bit of a brouhaha recently over whether a maker should even have the gall to ask people

not to copy their designs, I've noticed that some designers like Jörg have become more circumspect about how their designs are constructed and there is a reluctance to post engineering-style drawings. I used to always photograph my frames from an odd angle to frustrate copying, but in the spirit of goodwill on the forum at the time, I started showing what my designs looked like front -on and even showed my design studies and technical drawings. I always presumed people would ask before copying and I would have the chance to work with them on the materials and design or politely decline. It seems not to be universally so, so I will have to go back to obscuring my designs.

There is then

ZDP-189
Oct 18 2010 08:22 AM

More words of wisdom from Bill Hays.

Bill Hays, on 17 October 2010 - 10:02 AM, said:

Seriously, I don't think many or hardly any really care if you copy a design for your own personal use. I know I don't care... But...
1) some people on this forum straight out copy a unique design that is in production... and then turn around and try to, or do sell it... in direct competition with the originator of the unique and original design. OR...
2) some people Lay claim to someone else's original design as being their own when pictures and or drawing were posted of that same thing previously. OR...
3) some people Will make a "clone" and its not made out of tested for that purpose and of that dimensions use, thereby making an unsure or even possibly a dangerous creation... based on an original design from the actual creator of said design.

In all three instances mentioned, I DO care... and so should YOU.
And here's the reason why.

IF TO MUCH UNAUTHORIZED, BLATANT COPYING AND SUB-PAR RESELLING OCCURS... THEN THE CREATIVE MINDS THAT BROUGHT TO LIGHT THE ORIGINAL AND MORE UNIQUE CREATIONS WILL NOT POST PICTURES OR EVEN DESCRIPTIONS OF THEIR NEWEST OR BEST CREATIONS.

In that case the truly creative aspects of this endeavor, that we all seem to appreciate, will begin to be more limited... and then eventually will grow stagnant... as we all "ooooo and ah" over the latest knock-off of someone elses work and concepts.
I for one, appreciate a "stage", or in this case a forum, where creations can be shared... without the fear and or irritation of intellectual property theft.

I KNOW for a fact this has already occurred and THAT is the real shame.